Has Wingfoot ripped off the DataBook? [Archive]

rickb

02-11-2003, 10:36

TJeej--

Rather than call Wingfoot's ethics into question without all the fact's, why not call the ATC and ask them what's up? One of the things that is great about the organization is that you can get just about anyone on the phone.

I imagine that answer might surprise you. Respecting the ATC as I do, my best guess would be that they see WF's book as providing a real service to its constituancy. Everything I see about the ATC tells me that they put the interests of hikers and the Trail first. Seems to me that it is in the interest of both for hikers have the most accurate Trail data out there.

It might also be that collection of the Data was tied in with grant money from the NPS, and belongs in the public domain. Who knows? Well, the ATC knows. Or perhaps they just have a policy to release that kind of information to all writers and organizations.

I could be wrong, of course.

SGT Rock

02-11-2003, 10:39

My guess is he got permission. I like the idea of the databook and a guide like that combined. That has been my main problem with the Companion is all it seems to cover is towns and shelters. At leat the Guide has some camps and points of interest. I hope he is kicking back some to the ATC for the use of the data.

TJ aka Teej

02-12-2003, 09:30

Originally posted by SGT Rock
My guess is he got permission. >snip< I hope he is kicking back some to the ATC for the use of the data.

The ATC says he has permission to use the mileage figures, but that he does not have permission to copy the DataBook's format.
Dan Chazin, the editor of the DataBook, says that he has never spoken to Wingfoot. The ATC says that Wingfoot does not compensate them for using the DataBook's mileage.

MOWGLI

02-12-2003, 10:33

Teej, you sure have alot of time on your hands, an apparently some issues with WF as well.

Why don't you put some positive energy on this board instead of piling on WF?

BTW, I know WF fairly well. Have met him in Hot Springs, had a journal on his site in 2000, and helped run his Kids Place site in 2001. Unfortunately our relationship ended up on the scrap heap. Its a long story that I won't go into here, but, I think Whiteblaze woud be better served by leaving these issues to the Parties at hand. Namely, the ATC & Wingfoot. Anything else is just gossip.

Little Bear
GA-ME 2000

TJ aka Teej

02-12-2003, 17:04

Originally posted by TNJED
I think Whiteblaze woud be better served by leaving these issues to the Parties at hand. Namely, the ATC & Wingfoot. Anything else is just gossip.

Little Bear
GA-ME 2000

Hi Little Bear. The info I posted came from the Data Book's editor, and from Brian King of the ATC. It was posted by Daniel himself on the at-l, that would rise it above 'gossip', I think. Since the ATC is us (I hope that most AT users are members), and since Wingfoot seeks the AT spotlight through his actions, I would suggest that this issue is on topic for Whiteblaze.

Blue Jay

02-12-2003, 18:31

Wingfoot is a festering blight on the AT. He has found a way to suck money out of hikers and has many spies on all AT forums. They need to know what he is. This is not gossip it is fact.

MOWGLI

02-12-2003, 18:41

Blue Jay wrote "Wingfoot is a festering blight on the AT..... and has many spies on all AT forums.

Cell Towers are a festering blight on the AT. And remember Blue Jay, you are not paranoid if "they" really are after you.

TJ: If the info came from the ATC itself, why was your original posting not put in that context? It was posed as a question. I stick with my original idea. Stay positive, and leave the litigation to the parties at hand.

Blue Jay

02-12-2003, 19:19

Yes cell towers are also a festering blight, but I don't see how cell towers or Wingfoot is out to get me. Am I supposed to be grateful that Wingfoot does not like cell towers?

MOWGLI

02-12-2003, 20:07

Originally posted by Blue Jay
Am I supposed to be grateful that Wingfoot does not like cell towers?

No, I think you should be able to distinguish between a blight on the AT and WF however. Y'all worry too much about WF. Stay focused on the important stuff. There are a-holes out there who think it is a safety hazard that there are dead zones for cell phones along the AT. Hello???

ganj

02-12-2003, 21:22

Yeah, but we got a zillion other threads that focus on "important stuff." This is the thread where we get to talk about Wingfoot.

steve hiker

02-12-2003, 21:25

Why do I get the feeling that Wingfoot is the Ray Jardine of the AT? Or is that Chip Leonard?

TJ aka Teej

02-12-2003, 22:37

Originally posted by TNJED
TJ: If the info came from the ATC itself, why was your original posting not put in that context? It was posed as a question. I stick with my original idea. Stay positive, and leave the litigation to the parties at hand.

Hi Little Bear
Very sorry you've become confused. My question was in the original post. The information received from the Data Book's editor and Brian King of the ATC that you called "gossip" was
in a later post.
Try to stay positive, and please rise above attacking the messenger.

rumbler

02-12-2003, 23:44

This Wingfoot guy really does seem to generate quite a bit of animosity.

Virginian

02-13-2003, 23:02

I never met the guy, but I did notice that lots of folks had his book. And it did have interesting info that was nowhere else

TJ aka Teej

02-14-2003, 13:56

Originally posted by steve hiker
Why do I get the feeling that Wingfoot is the Ray Jardine of the AT? Or is that Chip Leonard?

That's a terrible thing to say about Chip! ;o)

The Weasel

02-14-2003, 18:38

I enter this topic with no small apprehension....

First of all, those who really give a **** about where Dan Bruce gets his data need to get a life. The Appalachian Trail Conference is not "us" - it's a sophisticated non-profit organization, with highly aware staff and senior volunteers, who are hardly wimps, after 40 years of negotiating/fighting/partnering with the National Park Service and everybody else along 2200 miles of controversy. The ATC can take care of itself, and if it minds what Dan does, it will do something about it. If it doesn't mind, it won't.

Second of all, you who like to criticize Dan's book remind me a bit of the people who are shocked about how cows are killed in slaughterhouses. If you don't like how it's made, don't buy the product. Others do.

Third, Dan is a pain in the ass, with absolutely no ability to tolerate any opinion other than his own, the value and truth of which he is totally convinced of. He also treats people rudely, routinely, which is why a lot of people don't like him. When I meet people on the Trail who are rude, I stay away from them. If you don't like Dan, stay away from him.

Fourth, Dan is pretty full of himself and, yes, likes to "self-promote". Part of that comes with selling a product. If you don't like "self promoters", stop buying all products that advertise. Once you do that, tell me how you like starving.

Fifth, Dan is pretty full of himself. I know, I just said that. He's also walked the whole damn Trail, several times. When I do it ***once***, I intend to brag about it occasionally, since it's a pretty significant accomplishment. The rest of you who have finished it in one season can brag as much (or as little) as you want. The rest can sit down and tolerate those who have done what you have not. If you can't do that, go back to reading National Geographic.

One last thing: Those of you who really DO try to thru-hike the AT will learn, very quickly, not to engage in a lot of crap about which hikers you do and don't like, in conversations at shelters or along the way. The rest of the Trail community thinks that kind of "discussion" is pretty bush league; assuming Dan is the biggest twerp since Dan Quayle, just keep it to yourself. Otherwise, you'll find yourself pretty unwelcome very quickly. Being "right" doesn't make you popular...as Dan should know.

TJ aka Teej

02-15-2003, 02:20

Originally posted by The Weasel

First of all, those who really give a **** about where Dan Bruce gets his data need to get a life.
Interesting comment. You enter a discussion telling the people you disagree with that 'they need to get a life'? The editor of the DataBook and Brian King of the ATC need to 'get a life'?
You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how silly.
The AT is a large part of my life. I contribute time and money to the ATC, and I "give a s***" how that time and money is used. Like many informed ATC members, I want to stop underwriting Wingy and the sham "Center for AT Studies."

Originally posted by The Weasel
Fifth, Dan is pretty full of himself. I know, I just said that. He's also walked the whole damn Trail, several times.
He has? How do you know that?

Originally posted by The Weasel
One last thing: Those of you who really DO try to thru-hike the AT will learn, very quickly, not to engage in a lot of crap about which hikers you do and don't like, in conversations at shelters or along the way. The rest of the Trail community thinks that kind of "discussion" is pretty bush league; assuming Dan is the biggest twerp since Dan Quayle, just keep it to yourself. Otherwise, you'll find yourself pretty unwelcome very quickly.
You just called your post here 'bush league'? Well, if you must..
Actually when on the trail and at hiker gatherings, we often talk about each other. Usually the only folks who will 'find themselves pretty unwelcome' are those that toss insults like 'get a life' around at those concerned about the AT.

screwysquirrel

02-15-2003, 02:47

Usually the only folks I find unwelcome are the ones who talk about how much they paid for their gear and I have never heard anyone talk about how Wingfoot rips off the ATC since I have been on the trail. But then again I usually tent out from the shelters to get away from the noise and I have only hiked a couple months in the last 2 years.

The Weasel

02-15-2003, 09:33

As I said, I entered this thread with no small apprehension....

(1) If you want to to "stop underwriting Wingy", then go ahead and stop. No one's pulling your wallet from your pocket.

(2) If you want to know who's walked the AT, check with the ATC. If you doubt that Dan has, and don't want to check, that's your lookout.

(3) Nope. Didn't call my post "bush league" since, unlike some of the ones preceding it, I haven't said accused anyone of theft, lying or cheating, or even that I don't like them. I still maintain that thruhikers don't like to listen to people (other thru's or blue blazers) criticize others, especially those absent, and try to get away from people that choose to.

I'm glad the ATC is a big part of your life, and that you're focused on important things about the Trail. As one who is obviously a past thruhiker of the whole thing, you might focus on thing more important than Dan Bruce.

Lone Wolf

02-15-2003, 10:02

I've hiked more AT miles than Wingding. Only 5 thru-hikes though. I'm out on the trail every year since 1986. The ATC don't know me. I have no patches or certificates. I am trash. I ain't gonna write no book and pat myself on the back. I'll leave that to the ego a-holes and elitists like Wingy. Are you gonna write a book Weasel?

ganj

02-15-2003, 10:02

Hey Weasel,

Your point is wrong. I have hiked the whole trail and many times throughout the trip Wingfoot has come up for discussion and rarely is he held in high regard. And other hikers ARE talked about as well if they are doing something dumb like mooching off others the whole hike or caught bathing in springs. I have seen all of these things and you won't convince me otherwise that it is a different lifestyle out there in that respect.

MOWGLI

02-15-2003, 10:38

Teej, why don't you come clear here and admit your part in starting all this BS? You posted this on the AT-L, and the ATC subsequently admitted that they have given WF permission to use their mileage figures. Right or wrong?

Then the dispute moved on to whether WF copied the databook format which goes beyond using the mileage figures and is potentially a copyright violation. That is between WF & the ATC. You then tried to throw gas on the fire, obviously hoping WF would get into some kind of legal trouble. People on the AT-L justifiably heaped all kinds of crap on you for prolonging this ridiculous conversation.

You are a troublemaker - nothing more. You are NOT the ATC.

Weasel is right. Get a life.

Little Bear
GA-ME 2000

The Weasel

02-15-2003, 12:00

Well, I can't help but comment....

Lone Wolf has my respect; (s)he [not clear from your profile, Wolfie) has done what neither I nor most of the others - including those who feel free to judge those who have - have done. As I said in my first post in this thread, you should brag as much, or as little, as you wish; you're entitled. As for me writing a book, well, I don't think the world is ready for another book about someone who only has done a partial "walk in the woods".

Ganj? I also commented that Dan has hurt himself a lot by his opinions and behavior in Trailplace. That's a lot different from the man (are we talking about the same guy?) who stood, nude, washing himself in the spring at Blue Mountain Shelter in '00, lathering himself two feet from the pipe? People that are on the trail and behaving badly are precisely what I mean about those who get ostracised in a hurry, regardless of what they've done. So if you run into Dan on the trail, you're free to ignore him. But I have no recollection - none - of people sitting around the shelter bitching about people for the hell of it, especially those who aren't anywhere close.

And as for the "ego a-holes and elitists" who write books about their thruhikes, well, I think I'd be a little reluctant to call Bill Irwin or Dave Brill either an "ego a-hole" or an "elitist". On the other hand, it's probably safe, if someone really feels that thruhikers who have written books are "ego a-holes", to say that about Earl Shaffer and Ed Garvey, since they are both dead, after more than a hundred years (between them!) of thruhiking AND trail service.

On the other hand, maybe that makes my point about name calling.

The Weasel

TJ aka Teej

02-15-2003, 13:30

Originally posted by TNJED
Teej, why don't you come clear here and admit your part in starting all this BS? You posted this on the AT-L, and the ATC subsequently admitted that they have given WF permission to use their mileage figures. Right or wrong?

Then the dispute moved on to whether WF copied the databook format which goes beyond using the mileage figures and is potentially a copyright violation. That is between WF & the ATC. You then tried to throw gas on the fire, obviously hoping WF would get into some kind of legal trouble. People on the AT-L justifiably heaped all kinds of crap on you for prolonging this ridiculous conversation.

Hi Little Bear,
"Come clear"? "Admit"? Please see the first post in this thread. Yes, I started it. Yes, the ATC has provided Wingy with the Data Book mileage information for free. Were you better informed you would know that's been an acknowledged and hotly debated fact for four years. The difference this year, as you know from reading the at-l and posts from the Databook's Editor and Brian King of the ATC, is that Wingy does not have permission to copy the entire book or it's format. You might think that's "BS" and "ridiculous", but thankfully many others do not.
Yes, I support the ATC taking legal action ending it's relationship with him (see my original, post.) And yes, *some* people on the at-l (namely two persons from Wingy's Trailplace) tried to "heap crap" on me. It's obvious that a few don't want people to know that their ATC dues help support Wingy and his sham "Center for AT Studies."
"Troublemaker"? Well, at least that's one thing you got right...

smokymtnsteve

02-15-2003, 13:38

TroubleMaker..that could be your NEW trail name teej :D

Keep Up the GOOD work!!!

SGT Rock

02-15-2003, 13:40

Honestly I get tired of hearing how people hate Wingfoot or what he has done lately. Can we move on?

The Weasel

02-15-2003, 13:43

Rock...I agree. Do you think the Yankees have a chance at the pennant this year?

The Weasel

TJ aka Teej

02-15-2003, 13:46

Originally posted by The Weasel
(2) If you want to know who's walked the AT, check with the ATC. If you doubt that Dan has, and don't want to check, that's your lookout.

Weasel,
It will surprise you to know that not all who have thruhiked the AT register with the ATC, and not all who have registered have thruhiked.
You said "He's also walked the whole d*** Trail, several times."
I asked "He has? How do you know that?"
You checked with the ATC? You obviously care a lot about this.
Are you going to look into some of his other claims? Like being a consultant for gear manufacturers? Like running backpacking seminars? Like being "the acknowledged authority on thruhiking"?
Please share with us what you discover.

SGT Rock

02-15-2003, 13:47

Maybe?

SGT Rock

02-15-2003, 13:52

If I may get y'all to step back for just a second please. You don't need credentials to talk AT here. True that, a lot of people are tired of WF, and a lot of us could care less about him. I don't mind y'all talking about if he ripped off the data book or not, but lets not rip into each other here.

MOWGLI

02-15-2003, 13:56

Originally posted by SGT Rock
Honestly I get tired of hearing how people hate Wingfoot or what he has done lately. Can we move on?

Amen to that!

TJ aka Teej

02-15-2003, 13:57

Originally posted by SGT Rock
Can we move on?

It sure would be nice to never hear his name again, Rock.
It's a bit much to wish for though, considering the high profile he has achieved through his actions.
I hope to start no more threads about his actions.

The Weasel

02-15-2003, 14:14

As one of the first on this forum - I hate to say it, but I'm "older" than Rock - I've always been disappointed (and said so) when flame wars begin, since they have a way of getting a life of their own. And, as with most fires, I've always hoped that they could be put out early. Rock's comment about moving on is well placed; when people in this forum start getting directly personal at each other, it's a bit like consuming our own children; a few will recall that this forum almost foundered at least once from such things.

And Rock's right that "credentials" aren't necessary to discuss things here. People with "mileage" on the AT anywhere from minus numbers to multiple completions have always been welcome here, and valued. Some of them are moderators who may not have walked a step of the Trail and may not even intend to (but you've got a wealth of knowledge, don't you, Jensine?).

But there's a lot of damage done to the AT by people that just attack each other, and it really doesn't matter if the attacks are justified or not. It doesn't matter who is a "member" of the ATC, who is "registered" as having completed it (largely a meaningless, but interesting activity, since it is a pure "honor system"), or anything else. My feeling - and I frankly think it's shared with more people than not - is if there are personal issues someone has, you should "take it outside".

Lest there be the response, "Well, I'm just trying to show everyone what a jerk Joe Lunchbucket is, and they need to know that," that's a bit presumptuous. And even as to Dan Bruce, I've duked it up with him on no few occasions; when it's a difference of opinion about something about the Trail, I say so politely (and yeah, you can be both emphatic and polite) on his (or other) forums. If I think he is out of line personally - and he is, as we all are - then I keep it personal; Dan, unlike lots of people, both publishes his E-mail addresses and responds to E-mails. (You may not like the response, but you'll get one.)

And as for his - or anyone else's - "credentials", well, if you all doubt that Dan or anyone else has walked the whole blamed Trail and want to say so in public, its up to you to check it out; don't ask me to do your work for you, without paying fairly steep fact-checker fees.

What it all boils down to is this: Some people like Dan Bruce, some don't, and most don't know him. Some people believe him, some don't, and most don't care. Some people buy his books, some don't, and most don't need to. Beyond that, personal attacks don't really have a lot to do with the Trail.

Give it a rest, folk, and move on to the topics that matter.

The Weasel

TJ aka Teej

02-15-2003, 15:28

Originally posted by The Weasel
I've always been disappointed (and said so) when flame wars begin, since they have a way of getting a life of their own.
Yet you lit up this thread with profanity, "get a life" wisecracks, and several negative personal comments about Wingy.

And as for his - or anyone else's - "credentials", well, if you all doubt that Dan or anyone else has walked the whole blamed Trail and want to say so in public, its up to you to check it out; don't ask me to do your work for you, without paying fairly steep fact-checker fees.
You brought up Wingy's "credentials" Weasel, no one else had mentioned them. Since *you* brought them up, your attempt to start a flame war over them is a bit hard to understand.

Give it a rest, folk, and move on to the topics that matter.
If this topic "doesn't matter," why have you spent so much energy on it? If a topic doesn't matter to you, perhaps you should stop adding long replys to the thread? Give it a rest Weasel, and please move on to topics "that matter."

The Weasel

02-15-2003, 15:52

Teej...

When you look in the mirror, do you see Wingfoot? It's amazing how much your whole devotion to ridding the AT of a scourge with whom you disagree and do not respect sounds like Dan Bruce when he goes off on one of his holier-than-thou rants that are about the same thing...scourges with whom he doesn't agree and doesn't respect. It doesn't become Dan, nor does it become you.

Oh...as for the profanity, well, yeah, some people think "****" is profane, but then "How to **** in the Woods" (one of the best environmental protection books ever written for backpackers) reviews its etymology, and concludes (correctly) that it's not.

On the other hand, calling (no, Teej, I know it wasn't you) writers of books about their thru hikes "elitist a-holes" really was, kinda, you know, sorta, well, gosh, yeah...profane. I'm sure you regret that kind of comment just as much as you didn't like mine that people who really care about Dan Bruce's few-or-many defects in life should 'get a life'.

The Weasel

TJ aka Teej

02-15-2003, 16:16

Originally posted by The Weasel
It's amazing how much your whole devotion to ridding the AT of a scourge with whom you disagree and do not respect sounds like Dan Bruce when he goes off on one of his holier-than-thou rants that are about the same thing...scourges with whom he doesn't agree and doesn't respect. It doesn't become Dan, nor does it become you.
>snipped to avoid wasting bandwidth<
I'm sure you regret that kind of comment just as much as you didn't like mine that people who really care about Dan Bruce's few-or-many defects in life should 'get a life'.

Just can't move on Weasel? I want the ATC to stop giving Wingy something that he then sells. You see that as "devotion to ridding the AT of a scourge with whom you disagree and do not respect." Inventing words to argue about doesn't become you.
"...people who really care about Dan Bruce's few-or-many defects in life should 'get a life'."
You seem to care a great deal about this, Weasel. After all those negative personal comments you made about Dan Bruce's defects in this thread, I'm glad you've seen the mirror ..er, light.. and I hope you can now move on to topics "that matter."

Lugnut

02-15-2003, 17:24

Rats! Just as The Weasel was coming out of his shell.:banana

The Weasel

02-15-2003, 20:40

Coming out of my shell? Yes, I know. I've have a reputation for being shy!

As for my "negative" comments about Dan, well, I'm not sure they're quite in the same class as some of the other things said about him. And they're things I've said to Dan directly, both privately and (when appropriate) publicly.

Why do I belabor the point? Well, while I can disagree with most of the people on this or other forums about something or other, I tend to feel that ganging up on someone in their absence is kind of bad form. And Dan strongly asserts that he does not take part in this forum. While I have no doubt he has friends who tell him what's going on - I think the word "spy" is unnecessary and offensive - it's always easy to beat up on someone when they aren't around to defend themselves. That irks me.

As for you wanting "the ATC to stop giving Wingy something that he then sells," well, leaving aside that you're not "the ATC", I have a couple of problems with that:

-- It doesn't bother the ATC, apparently. So why does it matter to you?

-- The ATC isn't your typical "private" group. It administers, in a unique fashion, a component of the National Park Service system. That "data" is, to some degree, public property.

-- The ATC "gives" a lot of help to others, apparently for free. The ALDHA comes to mind, if only by advertising and selling its guidebook. I rather doubt that any "profit" the ATC makes on such sales cover the cost of doing so.

One of the recurring threads on Trailplace and in Dan's "list" is his feeling that there are people who like to "stir up trouble". While he doesn't recognize that he often does the same thing, his point that less "eating our own children" and more focus on improving the trail is a good one.

To those who don't like Wingfoot, I'm not going to argue that you should; if you want to give Dan hell, go to Trailplace or his "list" and feel free to do so to his "face". To those who don't agree with the ATC on many of its decisions, I won't argue that, either - other than to encourage you to take an active part in ATC annual meetings and to belong to a local AT club. That's called "democracy".

The Weasel

Lugnut

02-16-2003, 01:42

I am an ATC member, in fact, a life member. I agree with only about half of what the board does. I attend bi-annual meetings and those meetings are rubber stamps, not democracy. Members have little, if any. voice in the operations of the conference.
I think that Brother Bruce was at one time relevant but has been overtaken by more amicable sources, such as this one, and my favorite color is blue. Am I screwed up or what?:)

The Weasel

02-16-2003, 02:16

Lugnut, finally a voice of insanity helping to clear the air! Yes, blue is a very weird color to love, but weird is, of course, good. So you need not fear for your soul.

I agree about ATC meetings not being "controlled" by members. But that's still "democracy". But it's the kind of "democracy" that results from long, long, long term involvement. The kind of "I'll show up tomorrow night and everyone will agree with me once I tell 'em the facts" democracy doesn't work at local school boards, it doesn't work in Conress (despite all the wonderful "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington mythology) and it sure doesn't work at the ATC. If people want to make a difference, they need to hunker down and commit to what they're doing. I can't blame a lot of people for not having the time to do that, but that don't mean it ain't democracy.

As for "relevance" I have to agree with your real point, that this is a more productive forum, by and large, than most. The "Most Useful Website" poll (which I still wish people would vote on) sort of gives some statistical support to your point, rather more than rants do, I think.

But yeah, I really wish you liked "white" more. Blue is so, well, you know, "off the track". But you're not beyond hope.

The Weasel

TJ aka Teej

02-16-2003, 14:32

Originally posted by The Weasel

-- It doesn't bother the ATC, apparently. So why does it matter to you?
Please review previous posts in this thread, Weasel.

[[/i]-- The ATC "gives" a lot of help to others, apparently for free. The ALDHA comes to mind, if only by advertising and selling its guidebook. I rather doubt that any "profit" the ATC makes on such sales cover the cost of doing so.
You think the ATC advertises and sells the Companion *for* ALDHA? I don't know where you got that stuff from, Weasel - it sounds like Wingy is feeding you some his usual anti-ALDHA, anti-ATC dis-information.
To help you learn more about the Companion, and ALDHA's volunteer relationship with the ATC:
http://www.aldha.org/logue.htm

Footnotes

02-16-2003, 17:18

Gentlemen,

This pissing match has gone on long enough. Can we move on?

The Weasel

02-16-2003, 17:41

Well, yeah, gosh, I'm game. Actually, thought I'd go read some books written by thru hiking a**....ummmm....ahhhh...., oh yeah..."veterans."

Peaks

02-16-2003, 21:40

Originally posted by The Weasel
Rock...I agree. Do you think the Yankees have a chance at the pennant this year?

The Weasel

What about the Red Sox?

Colter

02-16-2003, 22:04

Hi Peaks, doing any hiking this summer?

MOWGLI

02-16-2003, 22:44

Originally posted by Peaks
What about the Red Sox?

1918 You never should have traded the Bambino.

Signed,

A Yankee Fan

TJ aka Teej

02-16-2003, 22:54

Originally posted by Footnotes
Gentlemen,

This pissing match has gone on long enough. Can we move on?
Hi Footnotes
It was a pretty good discussion before Weasel hijacked it.
He used the same tactic with the thread that was going on about Wingy's anti-ATC, anti-at-l Trailplace editorial a while back. Seems to be an obvious theme to the kind of information he doesn't want discussed.
I think that if Wingy wants his opinions posted here he should do it himself.
Openly, that is.

TJ aka Teej

02-16-2003, 22:56

Originally posted by Peaks
What about the Red Sox?

In first place on August 1st!

The Weasel

02-17-2003, 00:50

Yeah, it's always a pretty good discussion if you can beat up on someone behind their back.

But me hijack a discussion? Damn. No one's complimented me that much since, well, I'd rather not get into that. Guess I have this problem: I have this delightful belief that people will express opinions reponsibly, and have the guts to not attack others who aren't present to defend themselves. To be blunt, it's called honor and decency, and to be equally blunt, Teej, a big part of your problem is you only like the syncophants who believe what you do. In short, I don't like seeing Dan Bruce attack "nameless" people on "other" forums when those - I think he includes you - aren't on Trailplace - and I've said the same thing there, and I don't like seeing people like you behave like he does. It's wrong, and if you think that's "hijacking" a discussion, well, I'm not going to walk away from your bad manners.

If you want to talk about gear, hostels, trail towns or weather, do so, or any of the other useful topics here. And if you want to attack me, go ahead: I'm a big kid, and I can take it, but I won't be silent about it. And if you want to go to some other forum and cry about what a sumbitch The Weasel is, behind MY back, as you seem to enjoy doing about Wingfoot - (and that's his name, not "Wingy", and he's entitled to that courtesy, too, just as you're entitled to the courtesy of YOUR name) - well, go ahead on that one, too. But don't expect to be respected for it.

This forum wasn't created for people to come on line and attack other people in the Trail community with impunity, and the fastest way to destroy it - as Trailplace has largely been - is to keep attacking those "bad people" that aren't here.

I closed down, in relatively good humor, my discussion here, but frankly, it says a heck of a lot more about you than you realize that you just couldn't give it up. Why don't you go to Trailplace and have the guts to say what you say here, and stop saying it here?

The Weasel

MOWGLI

02-17-2003, 08:48

Originally posted by TJ aka Teej
In first place on August 1st!

Perhaps, but playing golf in early October.

Peaks

02-17-2003, 08:52

Originally posted by TJ aka Teej
In first place on August 1st!

That's no problem. It's in September when the usually fade and wilt.

rickb

02-17-2003, 09:10

The way I see it, the Hiking Community is better off because of WF's book. And the ATC is much more interested in seeing that the hiking community is better off, than in petty squables. Its pretty easy to connect the dots from there.

From what I can tell, WF's 2003 book looks to be a superior product. I would think that all future thru hikers will greatly appreciate it.

Rick B

(Weasel, I thought of you when picking out a beer at the brew pub in North Woodstock,NH on Saturday. I went with the White Mountain Weasel Wheat. Save a few bucks for a T-shirt when you pass through. :-) BTW, If I ever get too argumentative on this list please throw a rock in my direction. One gets to start out fresh at a new shcool right?)

Tentpole

02-17-2003, 12:01

Glad to see the Wingfoot thread on this site. Most people seeking information about any subject flitter from internet site to internet site and its important to know Trailplace is censored. You weight information differently if you know more about the souce of the information.

Some say Wingfoot has the right to censor free speech because he owns the site. I say, he just has the ability, not the right.

I was kicked off Trailplace years ago. It hurt at the time but now I'm kind of proud of it.

SGT Rock

02-17-2003, 12:09

A lot of people have been kicked off Trailplace it seems.

MOWGLI

02-17-2003, 13:04

Originally posted by Tentpole

Some say Wingfoot has the right to censor free speech because he owns the site. I say, he just has the ability, not the right.

I guess that's one way to look at it Tentpole.

If I ever took the time to build a website dedicated to conservation of a particular place or thing, I don't know that I would act differently than Wingfoot under certain circumstances.

For instance.. Let's say I build an internet site on my own server with an interactive forum. That site is dedicated to protecting a certain part of the NY/NJ Highlands that I love, and where I own a home. Along comes Mr. Mega Real Estate Developer with a plan for a golf course and 14,000 homes on land adjacent to my home. Mr Developer logs onto my site (my server) and starts to repeatedly post messages about why I am wrong about conservation, and why the land should be developed, not protected. Would I be wrong to ban that person from my site? Some might say yes. I would argue strongly for banning that individual. Afterall, the server and site are mine. Why can't I control what belongs to me?

Conversely, if the developer creates a site, and bans me for arguing against his plans, so be it.

Think I'm wrong? Try this out. Go down to the local Mall near where you live and start handing out flyers in the food court or some other public area. Regardless of your message, I'd be curious to know how long it will take for Security to haul your tail off of their property. I'd say you'll last no more than 10 minutes. The public domain is not as clear as some would like to think, and freedom of speech rights are NOT absolute.

Now to Trailplace. WF takes, in my opinion, a very valid stand against cell phone use. Want to take a cell phone on the trail? He'll tell you they are not necessary (he's right), he'll tell you they are a crutch (again, he's right), he'll tell you they ruin the "perception" of the wilderness experience (he's partially right - there ain't no wilderness along the AT though - but that's for another discussion). Still insist on taking a cell phone on the trail? Fine, keep it out of sight at all times, and be considerate of others trail experience. Many people are out on the trail to get away from those sort of technologies. Want to log onto Trailplace and promote cell phone use? He'll warn you, and then he'll ban you if you disregard what he says.

So, now you know how I feel about cell phones. BTW, I work for Verizon (land line division), who is the largest cell phone provider in the US. My opinion? Its the most god awful intrusive technology that has come down the pipe in my lifetime. I hate the G-D things. People bring 'em to baseball games, movie theatres, restaurants, and yes, the Appalachian Trail. Then they talk on 'em without the slightest consideration for anyone in their midst. The cell towers are also a blight on the landscape and a MAJOR hazard for migratory songbirds who migrate at night and navigate by the stars.

Have I gone too far afield? Perhaps. I have too much time on my hands though. This blizzard has me stuck in NY when I should be driving to Tennessee.

One last thing. I too am banned from Trailplace. Well, perhaps not banned, but he did not approve my registration because I spoke my mind too forcefully. And yet, I still defend his right to censor people on his site.

Little Bear
GA-ME 2000

Tentpole

02-17-2003, 16:08

What if you are new to backpacking and wanted to know about cell phone use and backpacking. You might go to Trailplace and think you are engaging an open forum where all sides of an issue were being discussed. You would find that 100% of the backpacking community are against cell phone use. As you know, this would not be true.

My view, which might change someones mind, could not be expressed. I'm not going to argue cell phones but I take mine for emergency use only. I keep thinking, what if I find another hiker injured or sick and my having or not having my cell phone is the difference between their life or death. The phone might not even work but at least I would know. I'll carry the extra weight.

My point is that you should know before you allow yourself to be "educated" that you may be getting only one side of an argument .

smokymtnsteve

02-17-2003, 16:10

Originally posted by The Weasel
as you seem to enjoy doing about Wingfoot - (and that's his name, not "Wingy", and he's entitled to that courtesy, too, just as you're entitled to the courtesy of YOUR name) - well, go ahead on that one, too. But don't expect to be respected for it.

The Weasel

Weasel my trail name is Smokymtnsteve..but lots of folks call me smoky...(among other names I'm sure :D )....makes me feel like they "know" me better ..kinda like on a "first name"basis...doesn't bother me at all...I don't even find it discourteous....actually makes me feel all warm and fuzzy ..just like my new bichon frise puppy.

dan bruce's trail name is wingfoot and Wingy is just a contraction of Wingfoot..like smoky is of my trail name...i'm sure folks call him 'wingy" cause they feel like they "know " him and want to be on a more friendly 'first name" type basis with him..

just like I'm sure some folks call me other names that are not as nice as smokymtnsteve or smoky... I have heard some folks call wingfoot/wingy other things too.. in example..

wingnut
wingding
wingdong
wingdung

and there are others I'm sure...the names in this example list would be considered disrespectful but IMO Wingy would not..as it is just a contraction of his trail name and used by folks to just feel a "little closer" and more personal with Dan...
:p

MOWGLI

02-17-2003, 16:51

Originally posted by Tentpole

My view, which might change someones mind, could not be expressed.

That's what places like Whiteblaze.net are for.

The Weasel

02-17-2003, 20:56

Anent banning speech...

Dan Bruce's belief that he can kick people off his forum/site because they disagree with him is reminscent of Ronald Reagan's classic putdown of George Bush - the old man - in the New Hampshire Debates. "I paid for this microphone, and I can say what I want."

Well, yeah. But the difference between the real estate developer against the trail and you with your own server - I think - is that Dan holds his forum out to be "for the benefit of the trail", not "for the benefit of only what Dan Bruce thinks is for the trail." If you want orthodoxy, you should warn people in advance, rather than punish them for believing that you have an open mind. That's the big difference between Trailplace and this forum, and I think it's one of the reasons that Trailplace is fading significantly.

As for changing names...Steve, when I came upon you lying on your back short of that hill, you introduced yourself to me as "SmokyMountain Steve". But then you added, "You can call me Smoky or Steve, if you want." I have a clear (and wonderful) recollection of that. I've asked Sgt. Rock (a long time ago, in a galaxy far away, before this forum even was this forum...honest) if he minded me referring to him as "Rock" or "Sarge", and (publicly) he said "no, go ahead." And in neither instance are the names used as part of a general put-down of someone who isn't present.

So, Smoky, glad to chat with you here. Until Dan Bruce tells me it's OK with him to call him "Wingy" or "Wingnut," I'll refrain.

The Weasel

TJ aka Teej

02-18-2003, 00:21

Originally posted by TNJED
If I ever took the time to build a website dedicated to conservation of a particular place or thing, I don't know that I would act differently than Wingfoot under certain circumstances.
>snipping a lot of really good stuff<
One last thing. I too am banned from Trailplace. Well, perhaps not banned, but he did not approve my registration because I spoke my mind too forcefully. And yet, I still defend his right to censor people on his site.

Hi Little Bear
I had about four years or so of participating on Trailplace, contributing info updates and photos, sending in the occasional check, and so forth.
I unsubscribed because, in my opinion, Wingy's focus became one of self promotion, with the Trail a secondary concern. "You'll never hike a mile of Trail you can't thank me in some way for." Oh, please.. Banning reference to the Gathering, to Rucks, to the Companion, to the IAT, to the ECT, to ALDHA, to certain hikers, to certain service providers, banning this, banning that... He's just too Anti-Everything-But-Wingfoot. And really, the business about kicking people off unless they used his website to send political emails of his choice was the final straw. He knows what it'll take to get me to come back, he knows my email, has my phone number and address. He certainly does have the right to run his "Living Room for AT Studies" as he wants to. He turned his back on the Trail community, something he evidently now has come to regret. For that, he has my sympathy.

TJ aka Teej

02-18-2003, 00:27

Originally posted by rickboudrie
From what I can tell, WF's 2003 book looks to be a superior product.

Now that's he's apparently included the Data Book, and not just the mileage data he was allowed to use...
I'm on record as saying he wrote a good guidebook.
(See at-l and ATML archives)

TJ aka Teej

02-18-2003, 00:29

Originally posted by SGT Rock
A lot of people have been kicked off Trailplace it seems.
Yup, but some deserved it by posting in an intentionally rude manner.

TJ aka Teej

02-18-2003, 00:40

Originally posted by The Weasel
If you want to talk about gear, hostels, trail towns or weather, do so, or any of the other useful topics here. >snipping snippish comment< And if you want to go to some other forum and cry about what a sumbitch The Weasel is, behind MY back, as you seem to enjoy doing about Wingfoot - (and that's his name, not "Wingy", and he's entitled to that courtesy, too, just as you're entitled to the courtesy of YOUR name) - well, go ahead on that one, too.

You have decided it's up to you what I post? How Wingy of you, Weasel. Forum members are allowed to post "positive" things about Wingy (no matter how inaccurate), but if you decide a post is "negative" (no matter how accurate) you'll try to shut them up?
Allow the topic, or ban the topic. Don't just ban what you don't agree with. There's something so.. so.. "Trailplace" about that tactic.
And now, to "Wingy"...
With more Trail experience, you'll learn that
traditionally Trail names are bestowed by your fellow hikers.
Dan Bruce aka "Wingnut"
http://www.blistersdicegame.com/trail8.htm
and
http://www.blistersdicegame.com/trail14.htm
Dan Bruce aka "Wingy"
http://www.blistersdicegame.com/trail24.htm
Dan Bruce aka "Wingfoot"
http://www.blistersdicegame.com/trail27.htm
This the only journal I know of that he appears in as a hiker.

Lugnut

02-18-2003, 02:05

This wing"nut" thing is hitting awfully close to the bone! Let's talk about dogs,guns or Uncle Johnny.

Actually, I sort of agree with everyone. How wishy-washy is that?
:banana

The Weasel

02-18-2003, 10:05

Well, I can understand how issues involving "nuts" can bother you, Lugnut. With my last name, well, I'm a little worried, too...

And as for Teej (and anyone else), you folks can - as have I - run any line you want, positive OR negative, whether about things, places or people. But when it is dissing someone hard when they aren't around to defend themselves, that's not merely "negative" and we all know it.

So no, I don't "decide" what anyone can post, and more mature (both personally and in terms of the life of this forum) know I've fought (successfully) to make sure that damnfool, negative, flaming threads are left on line. I believe in the First Amendment's spirit as well as its reality (no, it doesn't apply here, since the gummint isn't involved in restricting someone's speech). I don't "ban the topic I disagree with, but I certainly will continue to disagree with the topics I disagree with.

In other words, if people want to be rude here, they have the right to do so. But just as with nuclear weapons and bad cooking, just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD. And from the inception of this thread, it's been pretty much one that involves a series of personal attacks, many of them rude, by those demanding an orthodoxy of belief ("Dan Bruce is evil") that is identical to the way Dan runs Trailplace. I didn't like it there, and I don't like it here.

Oh, and on Trail names: Teej...you're very wrong: Trailnames are not "bestowed" by fellow hikers. They are a kind gift made by those who are, or will be, your friends. And, being a kind gift, the recipient accepts it, if they find pleasure in it. But just because I think someone IS a scheisskopf, for example, doesn't mean I get to start referring to him HERE, with all the anonymity that the Internet provides, as "Scheisskopf." Although sometimes I've been tempted. You get Dan "Wingfoot" Bruce's permission to call him "Wingy" - like I got Smoky's permission from Steve - and my complaint about that vanishes like morning fog. Until then? Well, as Spike Lee once said, "Do the right thing."

The Weasel

Lone Wolf

02-18-2003, 10:50

Weasel, your boy Wingfoot has "dissed" MANY people over the years when they weren't around to defend themselves. Why try to paint him as a poor defenseless, picked on soul? Many nights he had drunken soirees at his place and lips got loose. You can bet your ass he reads this website everyday. He chooses not to defend himself. Obviously you don't know him very well. Teach him to "Do the right thing".

The Weasel

02-18-2003, 21:40

Lone Wolf: I don't - and haven't - painted him as a "poor defenseless, picked on soul." (Us lawyers call what you did in saying I've done that, "creating a straw man" - you set up a false situation, then beat it up and say, "Wow! See how right I was!")

What I have said is that I don't think it's right to beat up on people behind their back, whether it's Dan Bruce doing it or anyone else. I never thought that courtesy and what The Buddha called "right behavior" was measured by the lowest common denominator.

Whether Dan can do what is "right" or not is up to him, just like it's up to me, and, yes, you. His - or anyone else's - choice not to do so does not excuse bad behavior but, to the contrary, confirms to those who act that way that there is nothing wrong with it.

The Weasel

SGT Rock

02-18-2003, 22:00

I think Weasel's point is "Treat people as you would want to be treated" not "Treat people like they treat others"

The Weasel

02-19-2003, 01:17

Damn, Sarge. I can tell you're not in a job that gets paid by the word. If I started saying things as succinctly as you - 21 words - I'd be looking for an honest job instead of this lawyer thingy. You described what I was trying to say, and did it in a couple lines. Damn. You want a job lawyering?

Yeah. The Golden Rule rules.

The Weasel

SGT Rock

02-19-2003, 01:36

I'm used to breaking it down to the lowest level for Joe.

There used to be a poster that went with those officer training programs that had a picture of a raggedy soldier needing a shave, the caption was something like: "He is cold, hungry, and hasn't slept in 3 days. All your planning must be understood and executed by him."

smokymtnsteve

02-19-2003, 08:53

weasel..when I meet you on the trail ..how do you know I gave you permission to call me smoky or steve or anything else as niethier one of us had our hearing aids in our ears and all I remember is both of us saying WHAT>>WHAT WHAT to each other ..what I DON"T HAVE MY HEARING AIDS IN...HUH

I probably did say yea call me smoky...

but LOTS of folks call me smoky(among other things) that I have never given "permission" to call me such ...they just naturally shorten my name...ok by me...just as long as they call me when the shuttle is ready. My skin isn't quite so thin

Dan has "come out of the woods with a BIG SIGN around his neck" telling the world his name and bragging a lot about what HE has done for the Trail and telling others how they should think...when you do this you are setting yourself up for public debate and opinion...when you wear the big sign ..you have to toughen up your skin..goes with the territory...

as for Uncle Johhny's HOSTILE..his skin is plenty tough...just don't take his TP..and I don't blame him for that ..he'll be glad to sell you a roll for 32 cents or give you a part of a roll if you don't have 32 cents and he has given me a cup of coffee for FREE!!!

Skeemer

02-19-2003, 09:58

I tried to log into Wingfoot's forum yesterday for the first time. It wouldn't let me in, saying that my e-mail address had already been used (it was, in fact, my correct current email address). Don't know how someone else could have used it. Anyway, I just read most of the above comments for the first time. Kind of glad I didn't get in.

Blue Jay

02-19-2003, 11:48

You didn't get on trailplace because of something you said here or on another forum. You don't have to boycott Wingfoot, he does it for you.

TJ aka Teej

02-19-2003, 17:00

Originally posted by The Weasel
Oh, and on Trail names: Teej...you're very wrong: Trailnames are not "bestowed" by fellow hikers. They are a kind gift made by those who are, or will be, your friends. And, being a kind gift, the recipient accepts it, if they find pleasure in it.

Mooch, whYBee, 40, ZipLock, Ralph, and "The Crazy One."
Not all "kind gifts." Where did you get that idea Weasel, from some book?
"Wingfoot" isn't a bestowed trail name, according to Wingy. He named himself that, after other hikers commented on his hiking speed, that he "must have wings on his feet" so he named himself Wingfoot. See the ATML archives. Other hikers bestowed other trail names on him. See the links I provided.
Every so often a new person will discover Wingy's Trailplace and become enthalled with the self authored legend. Eventually upon finding out that things are not all they seem to be, they will lash out at others, angered and ashamed that they accepted so much so blindly. We see your kind quite often, Weasel.
You brought up Wingy's credentials here to back up an opinion of your own. Why are you so upset that you'd be asked about the validity of your sources? Most lawyers are interested in facts, why aren't you?
And finally- Wingy is a public figure by his own choosing. He has made quire an effort to become one. You know the difference between discussing a public figure's public actions and public statements, and "dissing" a private citizen "behind his back". Stop pretending you don't.
Now, lets move on. And I don't mean to page 6.

TedB

02-19-2003, 22:05

Originally posted by TJ aka Teej
Every so often a new person will discover Wingy's Trailplace and become enthalled with the self authored legend. Eventually upon finding out that things are not all they seem to be, they will lash out at others, angered and ashamed that they accepted so much so blindly.

Is that what happend to you? Is that why you are so full of anger?

TJ aka Teej

02-19-2003, 22:41

Originally posted by TedB
Is that what happend to you? Is that why you are so full of anger?

Hi TedB
I became disappointed with Wingy long before he ever put his website up. Nice try with the "so full of anger" wisecrack, you've evidently been reading some of Wingy's stuff! :D

TedB

02-19-2003, 23:07

Originally posted by TJ aka Teej
I became disappointed with Wingy long before he ever put his website up.

Tell us more. Why did you first become disappointed with Wingfoot?

Blue Jay

02-20-2003, 08:47

Wow, we have a lawyer (Weasel), an engineer (Peaks) and now we have a psychiatrist. Well doctor, when Wingrat first through me off his site I felt rejected, alone, but Whiteblaze has cured me. You can move along to another victim now.

steve hiker

02-20-2003, 11:20

Let's go further --

Where you bottle fed when you wanted a nipple?

So you hate your father ... do you see him in Wingfoot?

Were you jilted in love as an adolescent, and did you feel the same after being jilted by Trailplace?

Did someone cut you off in traffic yesterday?

Ever want to "lash out" at society?

Have trouble sleeping? Ever wake up in cold sweats, thinking you'll never get on the trail?

(BTW I've taken this test too. The more I read this thread, the more I realize how much I hate this Wingfoot character. A real knave.)

Lone Wolf

02-20-2003, 11:37

Don't hate him. Pity him.

Pirate

02-20-2003, 12:48

Wingfoots book is good for starting fires and toliet paper!

Lone Wolf

02-20-2003, 12:57

You ain't right Pirate.

ganj

02-20-2003, 12:58

Are you the Pirate I met at Rusty's last year? If so, its good to see you.

rickb

02-20-2003, 14:09

Just a few points.

1. WF's 2003 guide looks to be the best on the market.

2. To WF's detractors I'd ask, "How many people would never have hiked the AT were it not for Wingfoot?" (Also a question you can ask of yourseves)

3. Should the founder of Muzak get a Grammy?

4. Were you all dropped on your heads as babies?

Rick B

The Weasel

02-20-2003, 16:32

Hey Steve...

I lipread what you said, guy!

and hey Rock!....why not replace that picture of the tired 'n' hungry soldier who is brain dead with a picture of a lawyer? "Remember: Keep it simple FOR the simple!"

The Wease

steve hiker

02-20-2003, 19:20

By the way I'm neither pro-Wingfoot or anti-Wingfoot, in fact I don't know anything about him and have rarely visited his website. Just having fun with the psychiatrist post. But I don't like censorship, and from what I hear he does lots of that on his forum.

screwysquirrel

02-20-2003, 19:27

I've didn't hike the AT because of Wingfoot, never even heard of him til 1999. And if you need his guidebook to hike the trail, does mommy fix your lunch?

rickb

02-20-2003, 20:07

In my case, I owe a debt of gratitude to a thu hiker who put on a impromptu slide show at a party in Cuernavaca, Mexico in 1979. I hadn't heard of the AT up to that point, but I asked questions.

I suspect that we have all been introduced to the AT and the concept of thru hiking in very different ways. Some by chance meetings, others by books. Some by the internet.

I am just thinking that WF probably lit the fuse of a thru hiking dream in more than a couple people. From where I am sitting thats a good thing.

BTW, my mommy did fix my lunch. She mailed me 10 to 12 at a time. Were I to have hiked with a guide book on my hike, I probably would have resupplied more frequently, though. Sort of like hikers do these days.

Rick B

The Weasel

02-20-2003, 20:18

Gosh, it's thrilling to see all these posts, especially after Teej - hoping to have the last word - has told us to move on. It would be petty of me to say that such an admonition - essentially, "shut up all of you who don't agree with me" - smacks of the (legitimate) criticism of Wingfoot, so I won't say that.

Teej, arguing with a lawyer - especially when you aren't one - is a lot like wrasslin' with a skunk. At the end of the match, you may not smell real good and the skunk probably will have had a pretty good time. Dan Bruce, insofar as you're making comments about him, isn't a "public figure" for First Amendment purposes, since discussions about his book (and character) are, in all likelihood, not the kind of "robust debate about topics of public concern" that New York Times vs. Sullivan gave immunity from libel suits, nor has Bruce injected himself into such a debate. I don't mind you disagreeing with me about that - I'm right, by the way - as long as you (and others) who criticise him (and others) in ways that damage his (and others') reputations realize that you very well may be engaging in defamation, and that can get expensive. In other words, if you want to say that his book is something you wouldn't buy, or that you don't like him (and many have said both), no problemo. But when people are referred to as "a--holes" and their character (including asserting that they are liars and so on) is impugned, well, don't say I didn't warn you.

In other words, Screwysquirrel, Steve Hiker and other similar writers are engaging in fair game. Others should not take solace about defamation laws and First Amendment issues that not even most lawyers are clear about.

As for trail names, well, I suppose if you want to pick your own trail name, go ahead. And the tradition - if YOU don't believe me, Teej, do your own research, and stop acting like when you say something it's Gospel but someone else has to "do research" - is clearly that names are "found" and not "self-given". Whether Dan Bruce honored that or not doesn't matter.

What DOES matter is that people are entitled to be called by the names they have been given or chosen, and that all you're proving by calling Bruce something else is that you're rude. If that makes you feel good, fine. But if you think Bruce's rudeness excuses it, you're wrong.

Rock was right: My whole point is in his 21 words. Re-read them, Teej. And stop venting your anger here.

The Weasel

TedB

02-20-2003, 21:18

If I really were a psychiatrist, I could make a lot of money off you guys. :)

All you hikers are nuts.

:banana

Lone Wolf

02-20-2003, 21:21

Yup. Shrinks and lawyers. Overpaid and underworked.

smokymtnsteve

02-20-2003, 22:02

Originally posted by Pirate
Wingfoots book is good for starting fires and toliet paper!

is wingfoots book burning what caught the truck at Rainbow springs on fire in 2000???:-?

TJ aka Teej

02-20-2003, 22:06

Earlier in this thread, after an angry rant, Weasel scolds us:

Originally posted by The Weasel
Give it a rest, folk, and move on to the topics that matter.

Tonight, to begin another angry rant, Weasel tells us:

Originally posted by The Weasel
Teej - hoping to have the last word - has told us to move on. It would be petty of me to say that such an admonition - essentially, "shut up all of you who don't agree with me" - smacks of the (legitimate) criticism of Wingfoot, so I won't say that.
Trying to have it both ways, Weasel has stuck both feet into both sides of his mouth.
Weasel, if you'd care to talk about whether or not Wingy has ripped off the DataBook I'll glady discuss it with you.
But if all you have to offer is hysterical hyperbole, you can continue by yourself.

Originally posted by The Weasel
Dan Bruce, insofar as you're making comments about him, isn't a "public figure" for First Amendment purposes, since discussions about his book (and character) are, in all likelihood, not the kind of "robust debate about topics of public concern" that New York Times vs. Sullivan gave immunity from libel suits, nor has Bruce injected himself into such a debate. I don't mind you disagreeing with me about that - I'm right, by the way - as long as you (and others) who criticise him (and others) in ways that damage his (and others') reputations realize that you very well may be engaging in defamation, and that can get expensive.
"Lawyers who spout free legal advice are worth no more than what they charge for it." - W.W. Maddox
Wingy is a public figure by choice. His public actions, publications, and public statements are open for public discussion.
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://trailplace.com
Enjoy.