View Full Version : Self Defense?
I was just wondering if anyone here carries any form of self defense from wildlife while on the AT? I completely understand that the chances of ever being attacked by anything are very low, but I am sure there are some who just feel more comfortable with some form of protection. From reading some of the posts on these forums, I have seen some mentions of bear deterrent spray. I personally carry a can of Guard Alaska, and I will admit that I just have it to make myself feel more comfortable - I know the chances of ever having to use it are almost non-existent. So, who else here carries some form of protection, and what do you carry? Also, has anyone ever encountered a situation where you actually had to use it?
Dave, leave the mace at home; it's no replacement for common sense.
Wanna carry something useful?? DEET!
Hi Roland,
Thanks for your input. I completely agree with you that it is no replacement for common sense, but it definitely makes me feel a whole lot more comfortable. Running from a bear, for example, is a very bad idea, since it could trigger a predatory response. However, I'd personally find it much easier to stand my ground against a bear if I knew I had some sort of "Plan B".
Honestly, as a solo hikier, I am more worried about the humans that I may run across on any trail than any critter that is out there. 1/2 that fret comes from being in law enforcement for most of my adult life, and now working privately doing employment background checks.... there's a lot of freaks out there!! Half my fear is alleved by working with wild critters on a daily basis... I work with a wildlife rescue agency and foster several odds and ends at home...even skunks!
I agree w/ Roland, take DEET! The skeeters in AL & FL can be mistake for mini F-16's!
timhines
02-19-2006, 23:28
i've thought about carrying "Halt!" It's more for bikers to carry and use against dogs.
If it makes you feel better knowing there is a plan B then I think it's worth it.
With that said, I don't think that your average joe/jane from Big City, USA should carry this and be the most confident person in the woods. You seem to be realistic in what it can do for you.
it's not the animals that live in the woods that you need to worry about but occasionally the animals from our society show up out there and a can of mace might come in handy...........
digger51
02-20-2006, 00:58
I have carried pepper spray for the 6 years I have been hiking on the AT and never had to pull it out of my pack. But I will still carry it this year. Better safe than sorry on some things.
I carry firecrackers sometimes to scare off bears and dogs. The mace I carry is for people....
JoeHiker
02-21-2006, 15:06
Dave, leave the mace at home; it's no replacement for common sense.
Sadly, common sense does not always allow us to avoid conflict. If only everyone ELSE on the trail had common sense too.
Hi Roland,
Thanks for your input. I completely agree with you that it is no replacement for common sense, but it definitely makes me feel a whole lot more comfortable. Running from a bear, for example, is a very bad idea, since it could trigger a predatory response. However, I'd personally find it much easier to stand my ground against a bear if I knew I had some sort of "Plan B".
dave, if you see a black bear, chances are, it will be running from you. people scare the hell out of black bears, because they usually hear gun fire shortly there after. any bear that was close enough to smell me couldn't get away fast enough. no need for the mace. you've got a better chance of accidently peppering yourself or someone else than the bear. most pepper spray has a range of 12 to 20 feet and that's it. no chance of being that close to a black bear unless you've slathered yourself in peanut butter and chocolate bars.
if some try,s to rob me,they will be sorry for a very short time,thats a promise:cool: neo
http://freewebs.com/equilibrium-movie/AnimatedEQincident01.gif
http://www.freewebs.com/equilibrium-movie/675602-preston1.GIF
http://www.freewebs.com/equilibrium-movie/Corinthian-misc_kata.gif (http://www.freewebs.com/equilibrium-movie/eqgifs.htm)
The most dangerous place I ever hiked was in Washington, DC. Mace is no protection against politicians - the most vicious life-form on this planet. (I use the term "life-form" in the same sense that zombies are life-forms).
That pepper-spray just makes you taste a little spicier....
TN_Hiker
02-21-2006, 16:16
That can of mace isn't going to do much good against the swarm of yellow jackets coming out of the nest you just walked across.
I was just as happy to carry nothing. Less weight!
No defense would have saved me from the mice eating my glasses and socks or the skunk from laying siege to my tent or even the fleas from once infesting my sleeping bag. The bearpole-climbing racoon was defeated by smearing the pole with neosporin gel. Those were the only time I was really bothered the whole thruhike.
Sadly, common sense does not always allow us to avoid conflict. If only everyone ELSE on the trail had common sense too.
Dave568 (http://member.php?u=7944) asked for advice about self-defense against wildlife, not people.
Jack Tarlin
02-21-2006, 16:33
1. Mace, pepper, or other "bear sprays" are illegal in many areas. By
carrying them, many folks break the law.
2. They are almost never used.
3. Most folks don't know how to use them properly, and frequently end up
spraying themselves or others.
4. If a large animal (like a charging bear) is really pissed off, your spray
will accomplish nothing, even if you have time to reach and use it.
5. The majority of folks on the A.T. don't feel that these items are
necessary. The best defense against problems with animals in the
backcountry is prudence and common sense.
{Hit by a large prudence, the bear was dazed and staggered backwards. Another, and the bear turned and high-tailed it to the land where common sense never goes!}
:banana
RockyTrail
02-21-2006, 16:55
Agree with Jack, 350 lbs of bear running 20mph is not going be be turned back by a little squirt when he's within 15 feet of closure. Actually it's probably going to be a "she" because this probably will only happen if you try to play with the cubs!
Just take a buddy with you that you can beat in a 50 yd dash; then you only have to outrun him instead of the bear:D
A hiking pole(s) or hiking staff, a loud voice, and a grapefruit sized rock (found alongside the trail) should be enough to deter most any animal. Chances are, it'll be a dog if anything chases after you. Happened to me in PA.
No worries.
just tie my socks to my pack during the day, I let them air out next to the tent plus all the food I eat man those varments aint got a chance:D,ofcourse against people it keeps them at distance too!!ky
Turbo Joe
02-21-2006, 18:08
only thing to defend your self from out there are just a few people. animals are not a problem because by the time you make it to a place where you know there are going to be a lot of them you should have gotten used to them by then. so far no no animal has hurt me except for my pride
KirkMcquest
02-21-2006, 18:19
Your biggest threat will be people, but those of you saying that the animals are NO threat are dreaming. You can be mauled by a bear, in spite of using the best common sense.
In olde England, the quarterstaff was the poor traveler's defense. A wood hiking staff comes close. Excellent dog protection.
http://cruisenews.net/backpacking/Quarterstaff.html
Your biggest threat will be people, but those of you saying that the animals are NO threat are dreaming. You can be mauled by a bear, in spite of using the best common sense.
Statistically speaking, you have almost zero chance of being mauled by a bear on the Appalachian Trail. Unless of course you go around feediing the bears.
That's a fact. Not a "dream." If you think I'm wrong, please tell us about all the maulings along the AT in the last 50 years.
KirkMcquest
02-21-2006, 18:30
Black bears have and can maul you. They may not have done so recently or in certain areas, but that is only until they do. Just tell the bear that what he is doing is statistically wrong while he's mauling you.
KirkMcquest
02-21-2006, 18:41
It is important to note that statistics reflect what HAS happened, not what WILL happen. It was statistically improbable that two girls would be killed on the A.T, in 1993, but they did, now the 'statistics' reflect slightly better odds of that happening. When your talking about huge feral predators, anyone with basic brain function will recognize the danger element.
Black bears have and can maul you. They may not have done so recently or in certain areas, but that is only until they do. Just tell the bear that what he is doing is statistically wrong while he's mauling you.
Maybe you're right. Perhaps you should stay at home under your bed. But I hear you're not safe there from bears or porcupines. :eek:
Jack Tarlin
02-21-2006, 18:48
Kirk, I think Mowgli's post is that while they CAN do it, it isn't something that you have to worry about. You have a greater chance of getting killed by a family member or neighbor in your own home or workplace than you do of getting killed by a bear.
In the Eastern United States, fatalities from blackbear attacks are incredibly rare; in some states, such as South Carolina, they have NEVER been recorded. In other states, including Trail states, the last fatality took place over a century ago.
In short, one has a greater chance of being killed by a Great White Shark off the coast of Jersey or Long Island than one does of being killed in the East by a black bear.
JoeHiker
02-21-2006, 18:50
Dave568 (http://member.php?u=7944) asked for advice about self-defense against wildlife, not people.
Sadly, common sense does not always allow us to avoid wildlife we might not want to encounter.
(I would consider a few people I've met as "wildlife")
Sadly, common sense does not always allow us to avoid wildlife we might not want to encounter.
Personally, I find a bear encounter to be the highlight of any backpacking trip. I've encountered bears probably 2 dozen times on trails. More than many, less than quite a few. Not that it doesn't get the adrenaline rushing because it certainly can. To me, hiking in a landscape devoid or it's charismatic megafauna is a sad experience.
Although I have only spent limited time hiking in Grizzly country (British Columbia) I have spent considerable time in the neotropics hiking in Jaguar & Puma territory (Ecuador & Costa Rica). Talk about a rush! And the snakes there can kill you in a matter of hours! But why dwell on that? If I did, I'd never leave the house. One of my most memorable experiences in Costa Rica was having a Fer-de-Lance cross a trail right in front of me. :eek:
You know what scares me? Deer ticks.
I just read this article and found it very informative...
http://www.bear.org/Black/Articles/How_Dangerous_are_Black_Bears.html
And one more...
http://www.americanbear.org/camping.htm
My self defense is dangerous flying hiking poles and a smell that would knock over a hog. And of course my trusty armalite AR-10 Carbine-gas semiautomatic.
KirkMcquest
02-21-2006, 20:46
Kirk, I think Mowgli's post is that while they CAN do it, it isn't something that you have to worry about. You have a greater chance of getting killed by a family member or neighbor in your own home or workplace than you do of getting killed by a bear.
In the Eastern United States, fatalities from blackbear attacks are incredibly rare; in some states, such as South Carolina, they have NEVER been recorded. In other states, including Trail states, the last fatality took place over a century ago.
In short, one has a greater chance of being killed by a Great White Shark off the coast of Jersey or Long Island than one does of being killed in the East by a black bear.
Jack, my point is that you CAN be attacked, although I wouldn't suggest worrying about it, we shouldn't belittle peoples concerns. Someone was attacked last year in New Jersey, and although it wasn't fatal, I'm sure it sucked.
People say its statistically unlikely to get attacked by a shark, but when you step in the water the odds increase dramatically. Be careful of statistics, they really don't mean anything. The fact that you hang up your food, and go to bed without candy bars in your pockets, is an admisssion of some degree of danger.
People say its statistically unlikely to get attacked by a shark, but when you step in the water the odds increase dramatically.
You're scared of swimming in the ocean too? :p For an alleged New York tough guy, you're kind of a weenie. :D You sure you're from New York? :-? Rev? ;)
Jack Tarlin
02-21-2006, 21:02
Geez, Kirk, lighten up. Nobody's either belittling you or your concerns.
All they're attempting to say---evidently without success, at least as you're concerned---is thatthis risk is so inconsequential that most folkd don't spend a lot of time dwelling on it.
Ans as far as bear-bagging and keeping snacks out of your pockets at night.....well, this is merely prudence and common sense, rather than admission of a danger. It is the acknowledgemnet that a VERY slight risk is present and it's a risk that can be cut considerably by behaving sensibly.
This is quite different from operating in a climate of fear.
And as for statistics not meaning anything, I disagree with you. For example, nobody's ever been reported killed by a black bear in South Carolina, despite the fact that folks have lived there for hundreds of years, frequently in proximity to bears. The statistic that tells me nobody's ever been killed there
means a great deal, Kirk. It means nobody's been killed there, and that the chances of my getting munched by a black bear there are ridiculously small.
I understand your point, Kirk, that a black bear attack is theoretically possible. Nobody's said otherwise.
It is also theoretically possible that the Grand Duchy of Luxemburg might attack the United States just before dawn, but I'm not gonna spend a lot of time worrying about it.
There are enough things in the world to be genuinely afraid of without adding things to this list that simply aren't worth worrying about, unless of course, one enjoys living in fear.
and if a bear gets out of hand, I just stuff his furry ... in it.:D
I have the remnants of my first (and hopefully last) black bear encounter lying on my living room floor... But I went looking for it, not the other way around. and boy was he ever hard to find!
And as for statistics not meaning anything, I disagree with you. For example, nobody's ever been reported killed by a black bear in South Carolina, despite the fact that folks have lived there for hundreds of years, frequently in proximity to bears. The statistic that tells me nobody's ever been killed there means a great deal, Kirk. It means nobody's been killed there, and that the chances of my getting munched by a black bear there are ridiculously small.
That's not to say there aren't black bears in SC. There are lots of 'em. My Mom has a second home a few miles off of the Foothills Trail in the Upstate, and a few years ago she had a 450 pounder on her front porch (in the middle of the night). All it was interested in was her birdseed. In other words, if you're a sunflower seed, you got real reason to fear bears.
KirkMcquest
02-21-2006, 21:42
Geez, Kirk, lighten up. Nobody's either belittling you or your concerns.
All they're attempting to say---evidently without success, at least as you're concerned---is thatthis risk is so inconsequential that most folkd don't spend a lot of time dwelling on it.
Ans as far as bear-bagging and keeping snacks out of your pockets at night.....well, this is merely prudence and common sense, rather than admission of a danger. It is the acknowledgemnet that a VERY slight risk is present and it's a risk that can be cut considerably by behaving sensibly.
This is quite different from operating in a climate of fear.
And as for statistics not meaning anything, I disagree with you. For example, nobody's ever been reported killed by a black bear in South Carolina, despite the fact that folks have lived there for hundreds of years, frequently in proximity to bears. The statistic that tells me nobody's ever been killed there
means a great deal, Kirk. It means nobody's been killed there, and that the chances of my getting munched by a black bear there are ridiculously small.
I understand your point, Kirk, that a black bear attack is theoretically possible. Nobody's said otherwise.
It is also theoretically possible that the Grand Duchy of Luxemburg might attack the United States just before dawn, but I'm not gonna spend a lot of time worrying about it.
There are enough things in the world to be genuinely afraid of without adding things to this list that simply aren't worth worrying about, unless of course, one enjoys living in fear.
I wasn't talking about anyone belittling my concerns, but rather the concerns of the person who posted this thread. I don't think I need to lighten up, I'm pretty cool. And,yes,:) I agree with you
Someone was attacked last year in New Jersey, and although it wasn't fatal, I'm sure it sucked.
That was also opening day of bear season... The bear had already been shot 4 times when the hunter approached. The bear was not dead, and obviously pissed, hence the attack...
That was also opening day of bear season... The bear had already been shot 4 times when the hunter approached. The bear was not dead, and obviously pissed, hence the attack...
A kid in a sleeping bag at High Point SP got nipped last year. Someone filmed the incident.
I saw a young bear about 200 yards from the shelter at High Point during my thru-hike. I stood stock till and watched him forage for several minutes. Way cool.
Toolshed
02-21-2006, 22:07
Personally, I find a bear encounter to be the highlight of any backpacking trip. ....You know what scares me? Deer ticks.
Right on!!!.
I was leading a trip in Pa a few years ago and was up front about 150 yards ahead of the main group. I caught mvoement and about 50 yards to my left was a blackbear frollicking in some fenrs. I stood silently and watched him/her for about 3 minnutes. As the first of the main group got closer I motioned for him to be silent and pointed and whispered "bear over there"
He craned his head and when he saw it he start screaming "Go AWAY BEAR" "GO AWAY BEAR" well the bear stood up and looked at us dropped on all fours and and took off the other way .
The fool then looked at me and said excitedly "Did you see him stand up getting ready to charge us?" he then blathered about his prowess to the rest of the group who by then had walked up. I made a mental note that if I ever lead another AMC trip, he will never get on it.
saimyoji
02-21-2006, 22:37
Another teen died due to a bear encounter last year: he was so scared he had a heart attack running away.
The Desperado
02-21-2006, 22:44
I have had as many as 5, yes five, black bear right in
The Desperado
02-21-2006, 22:45
OOPS! pUSHED
The Desperado
02-21-2006, 22:45
OOPS! pUSHED THE WRONG
The Desperado
02-21-2006, 22:50
Geez, I'll get this right yet. I was trying to say jack has given very good advice ref. the bears. I have had as many as 5 in the back yard of my cabin here and live here in "bear county nj" for many years...it's all about common sense and watching your "food sisuation". The hi pt. problem last year was due to some really stupid behavior on the peoples part. Dont be overly concerned with the bear "problem". Enjoy your time out doors!
Geez, I'll get this right yet. I was trying to say jack has given very good advice ref. the bears. I have had as many as 5 in the back yard of my cabin here and live here in "bear county nj" for many years...it's all about common sense and watching your "food sisuation". The hi pt. problem last year was due to some really stupid behavior on the peoples part. Dont be overly concerned with the bear "problem". Enjoy your time out doors!
What are you more concerned about Desperado. A bear attack or contracting Lyme Disease?
The Desperado
02-21-2006, 23:02
I'd say Lyme Disease of those two I guess. That's another thing & good you brought it up[ although it's not a bear thingy] that has definitely been on the rise the last few years, a hiker should check daily for the darn things.
I carry my own personal stench to fight off miscreants, malcontents and meanies.
The only animal that ever attacked me was a mockingbird, and I probably deserved it.
betic4lyf
02-22-2006, 10:36
anything gun that is big enough to stop a bear is going to be way to heavy to run away from the bear with, when i miss
micromega
02-22-2006, 12:12
A few years back, I had a bear encounter in the October Mountain area of the Berkshires in west Massachusetts. Not strictly on the AT but it does illustrate a few points for this discussion.
I was hiking with a friend around a bend in the trail when a black bear stepped out onto the trail less than ten feet in front of us. While my buddy and I hadn't been talking, we weren't trying to be quiet either, and I will never understand how that bear was unaware of our presence. It became aware of us a split second after we saw it, and if y'all will kindly allow me to indulge in a bit of anthropomorphism, what I saw on its face was pure and unadulterated panic. And then I was treated to a very good view of a bears arse as it lowered its head and plowed into the underbrush again like a bull.
Now, I'd like to tell you it was a 600 pounder that stood 5 feet at the shoulder, but truth is it only stood maybe two at the shoulder and I doubt it weighted much over 200.
A few points I think are relevant to this thread:
1) The bears first instinct was to run, even caught totally by surprise at close range.
2) That thing was unbelievably fast. Even though I saw it first, it not only reacted first but was already on its way out of sight by the time I reacted.
2a) Given how fast it reacted and moved, even if I had a gun or bear spray (neither of which I have ever carried), I wouldn't have had a chance if it came at me. I'm not sure I'd have had a chance to hit it even if I'd been carrying the "bear defense" at ready as if I were on combat patrol.
3) Because I'm sure someone will point this out, I want to be on record saying it first. Forget about the bear being surprised, how in tarnation was I unaware of a bear at that range? I'll swallow a mea culpa and notch up a lesson in humility.
my neighbor had a black bear on his porch munching some dog food last night. he heard unusual noises on the other side of his windowless front door, and when he opened it to investigate, there was a small black bear not 2 feet from the door. after being discovered, the bear hit the river so fast he left a wake behind him.
1. Mace, pepper, or other "bear sprays" are illegal in many areas. By
carrying them, many folks break the law.
2. They are almost never used.
3. Most folks don't know how to use them properly, and frequently end up
spraying themselves or others.
4. If a large animal (like a charging bear) is really pissed off, your spray
will accomplish nothing, even if you have time to reach and use it.
5. The majority of folks on the A.T. don't feel that these items are
necessary. The best defense against problems with animals in the
backcountry is prudence and common sense.
Jack tells it like it is. In nearly 70 years of wandering the woods, I've never been endangered by a wild creature. Nor by a human. Though humans sometimes take a bit of tact, like the time I was canoeing a remote river and the "owner" of a plastic covered camp showed up at 2 a.m. demanding to know what had happened to his "house." I had thought of it as litter and had burned it down.
After a two hour "friendly" discussion the guy left, his beer can clattering on the rocks.
Weary
I must agree with many of posters above...Bears in general want little to do with humans. We avoid, they avoid when possible. Having spent countless years in Bear country, I have seen many and have had problems with none.
woodsy
saimyoji
02-22-2006, 21:20
Well, I was walking around the Dunnfield Creek area last fall (DWG), the heavy rains had washed out most of the Dunnfield trail down by the creek and there were re-routes all over the initial half of the trail. I came around a grove down towards a huge fallen tree by the creek and there stood a bear. It was about three feet to shoulder, rooting around in the enormous root bed of the fallen tree. It didn't notice me, so I slipped my knife out of its sheath and proceeded with caution. When I was about 4 feet from it and it still hadn't noticed me (the rotted roots and soil along with the scent of grubs had most likely distracted it) I lunged....
That bad boy lies half on my living room floor and in my freezer. Bear steaks are good if you get em on ice fast.
I made a point to emphasize the entry point of my knife and the clean cut across its neck as I disabled and killed that bear on the pelt.
I had pics but they just didn't come out.
SGTdirtman
02-22-2006, 23:01
I dont believe in mace, I cant see it working well... I've seen alot of people who arent even bothered by over the counter mace and pepper sprays let alone a bear. That and the animal has to be relatively close to use it, by the time you get it out your probably already being mauled. I worry more about people than animals, and I carry a big knife on me for that.
The only thing i worry about animal wise is bears, and sometimes those stray dogs give me the creeps because they follow you around. but during the day they cant sneak up on you and a bear isnt going to pounce out of a tree and attack you. I do keep a flare rolled up with my tent in case a bear ever comes near my tent at night. a flare will scare the hell out of it without hurting it. plus the flare is a nice survival tool for emergency fires or signaling
I do keep a flare rolled up with my tent in case a bear ever comes near my tent at night. a flare will scare the hell out of it without hurting it. plus the flare is a nice survival tool for emergency fires or signaling
As far as the AT is concerned, maybe you should rethink the flare-in-your-tent thing.
Panzer
I keep a cup of gasoline and a lit candle in my tent at night. You never know.
KirkMcquest
02-23-2006, 17:42
Alot of people are spending alot of time explaining how rare and unlikely it is to be attacked by a bear. This is all true. However, in some rare instances, bears DO attack people. It probably won't happen, but if it does you'd beg for a can of bear spray. And before you all write back saying that spray won't work, do some research.
calm down Man!your right kirk it has happened and will again,but far more people fall off cliffs than are mauled,If your worried bring a can for yourself!its not a major problem along any major hiking trail.
Doppleganger
02-23-2006, 18:13
I can hardly imagine a worse way to go, than being killed by a bear.
Jack Tarlin
02-23-2006, 18:16
Lots of people get killed by falling trees every year, too, Kirk.
Til you get past your fears, you might want to avoid certain wooded sections of the Trail, where the threat from potential killer trees exists.
However, on the roughly one and a half percent of the Trail that is free of trees, I suspect you'll do fine.
Lots of people get killed by falling trees every year, too, Kirk.
Til you get past your fears, you might want to avoid certain wooded sections of the Trail, where the threat from potential killer trees exists.
However, on the roughly one and a half percent of the Trail that is free of trees, I suspect you'll do fine.your right B,Jack and their are so many other forms of fears one could have!but thats what being in the woods is all about to me,I enjoy a little adrenaline rush from nature time to time.:rolleyes: ky
KirkMcquest
02-23-2006, 18:29
Lots of people get killed by falling trees every year, too, Kirk.
Til you get past your fears, you might want to avoid certain wooded sections of the Trail, where the threat from potential killer trees exists.
However, on the roughly one and a half percent of the Trail that is free of trees, I suspect you'll do fine.
Recognizing a potential danger and trying to be prepared for it has nothing to do with fear. Pretending that no danger exists, is simply not a logical option for me. FEAR is what you'll feel if your attacked because you'll realize that your totally unprepared, perhaps your last thoughts will be of Mcquest's vain attempts to appeal to you.:eek: :eek:
P.S= If by carrying a small spray bottle, I could eliminate some of the chances for a tree to fall on me, I would
sparky2000
02-23-2006, 18:32
Yell loud and carry a little stick
Jack Tarlin
02-23-2006, 18:39
Hey, Kirk, try and carry a sense of humor, too.
A little bit goes a long way.
Recognizing a potential danger and trying to be prepared for it has nothing to do with fear. Pretending that no danger exists, is simply not a logical option for me. FEAR is what you'll feel if your attacked because you'll realize that your totally unprepared, perhaps your last thoughts will be of Mcquest's vain attempts to appeal to you.:eek: :eek:
P.S= If by carrying a small spray bottle, I could eliminate some of the chances for a tree to fall on me, I would
I suggest the kevlar body sock. It'll protect you from bears, dogs, and falling trees less than 6" in diameter. I designed it and will sell you the prototype for only $19,999.99. In addition to protecting you, it'll provide amusement to the other hikers, thus adhering to the thru-hiking gear rule. Everything you carry should serve more than one purpose.
As soon as I get your measurements and a 10% ddeposit, I'll start work on it. ;)
KirkMcquest
02-23-2006, 18:48
I'm considering a suite of armor, less costly. I'm also proposing a plan to have the trees removed for safety purposes.
I have been sprayed w/ full strength police issue pepper spray(10% capsaicin)... (no, not for that reason! Had to be sprayed in order to carry it). While it does feel like your skin is on fire, it is in no way incapacitating. I could still function (defend myself and fire my weapon).
Most spray defenses that the public can buy are not near the strength of police or military issue. Most bear sprays used the same ingredient (2% capsaicin oil) as the public issue spray. I think that if I can stand up to the heavy-duty stuff, its not going to do much to the bear. Hopefully it would be enough deterrant to make them leave you alone.
The other problem is getting it out of wherever you have it stored, aimed in the right direction and "firing" it all before the attack happens. Unless you practice your quick-draw, I dont see that happening.
Oh, and when you hear "TIMBER" run like hell, cuz a tree is comin at ya!
KirkMcquest
02-23-2006, 18:58
Hey, Kirk, try and carry a sense of humor, too.
A little bit goes a long way.
I didn't realize that the prospect of being mauled by a bear was the occasion for humor. I thought we were having a serious discussion about the probabilities and solutions to bear attacks.
If you've followed any of my antics on this web site, I think you'll find my sense of humor to be extremely well developed. Here's a dancing banana to prove it!:banana
bear spray is just gonna piss em' off. go for it McRev.
KirkMcquest
02-23-2006, 19:08
I have been sprayed w/ full strength police issue pepper spray(10% capsaicin)... (no, not for that reason! Had to be sprayed in order to carry it). While it does feel like your skin is on fire, it is in no way incapacitating. I could still function (defend myself and fire my weapon).
Most spray defenses that the public can buy are not near the strength of police or military issue. Most bear sprays used the same ingredient (2% capsaicin oil) as the public issue spray. I think that if I can stand up to the heavy-duty stuff, its not going to do much to the bear. Hopefully it would be enough deterrant to make them leave you alone.
The other problem is getting it out of wherever you have it stored, aimed in the right direction and "firing" it all before the attack happens. Unless you practice your quick-draw, I dont see that happening.
Oh, and when you hear "TIMBER" run like hell, cuz a tree is comin at ya!
I've also been sprayed and found myself in EXTREME pain. Bear spray is not guaranteed, but its proven to be reasonably effective
KirkMcquest
02-23-2006, 19:12
bear spray is just gonna piss em' off. go for it McRev.
I can see how you've confused the Rev. with myself, since we both made a monkey out of you in previous threads. I guess it follows that your mind would combine us into one frightening entity.
Here's something even more scary, there's two of us.:eek:
go for it McRev.
The McRev. That's a new sandwich they sell down here at McDonalds. It's two slices of fried baloney served on New York wry, er, I mean rye, with a touch of bear spray for spiciness. It sounds good, but it's not very substantial . ;)
I havent looked up the info, but I am sure someone here can find it... I do believe there are bears in every state along the trail... If its the bears you fear, DONT GO!!!
I don't know if I ever told you guys this, but I crack myself up. My wife says I'm the funniest guy I know. :banana
saimyoji
02-23-2006, 19:28
Pepper spray can be made to extreme concentration by anyone with a basic knowledge of chemistry, or by doing some research on the net. Better than pepper spray...there are a variety of household chemicals available at any supermarket or hardware store that can be even more effective in making the bear go away.
HOWEVER, as has been said, you gotta have good timing and good aim. I read somewhere about a person defending themself against an attacker sprayed themself in the face. The attacker was freaked out and took off.
Two Speed
02-23-2006, 19:35
I've also been sprayed and found myself in EXTREME pain. Bear spray is not guaranteed, but its proven to be reasonably effectiveBack in the day I worked for Georgia Power and was issued "Dog Halt," the same stuff the Post Office uses. To say this stuff packs a wallop is putting it mildly. Unfortunately, if a dog is hit with that crap too often they can get to where it just pisses them off. I had one encounter where a large mutt went from wanting to lay a hurting on me to going full scale "Cujo" style berserk after I dosed him with that garbage. I lived, and didn't get cut up, but I had one fine knock down drag out full scale war with that mutt before he decided that there were some cars that needed peed on. In the process I nailed him with a pair of nine inch lineman's pliers, a 2 D Cell flashlight, one phillips head screwdriver, one sealing iron and a small pair of wire snips before deciding I'd better hang on to my last screw driver as an impromptu dagger. Short version: even after seeing that garbage go in his eyes AND mouth he went from merely severely aggressive to full out psycho.
Rev. LongQuest, I suggest that you rely on common sense and not bear spray or firearms. If a bear really and truly wants you he's gonna get you.
Skidsteer
02-23-2006, 19:42
I suggest that you rely on common sense and not bear spray or firearms. If a bear really and truly wants you he's gonna get you.
Now that's sound advice and wise counsel. Same goes for lightning, falling trees, trolls(under the bridge kind), etc. Instant karma never rests.
I was just wondering if anyone here carries any form of self defense from wildlife while on the AT?
I personally don't carry anything meant for protection against wildlife. I prefer to rely on tried and true methods of avoiding conflict with wildlife instead. Conflicts with wildlife can be a problem, but almost all are avoidable without using a weapon. By the way, it's Severe Weather Awareness Week. Now there is a threat to hikers that I can relate to.
KirkMcquest
02-23-2006, 21:22
Rev. LongQuest, I suggest that you rely on common sense and not bear spray or firearms. If a bear really and truly wants you he's gonna get you.
Two bit,
I suggest you look into the data, and find out why bear spray is effective. I'm not going into a huge explanation about how bears 99.9% of the time, don't really want to get you, and some pepper spray can be an excellent deterent. You might also look into what type of professional people use carry bear spray and why.
KirkMcquest
02-23-2006, 21:26
I havent looked up the info, but I am sure someone here can find it... I do believe there are bears in every state along the trail... If its the bears you fear, DONT GO!!!
Read post 67, for an answer to your question. Hey, here's an idea, why don't you read up on what's been said, and THEN post. :-?
I often hike in an area which is claimed to have the highest concentration of black bear in the U.S. I live in an area where black bear often visit, WHEN food is readily available to them. I have encountered several black bear. I have only had two encounters which were more than momentarily unnerving. One of the conditions of one meeting was my stupidity.
Black bear have a sense of smell which is much superior to our own - and hikers do exude a scent. Their hearing is about the same as ours. Their vision is not as good as ours. Black bear can easily outrun us. Black bear can easily out climb us. A black bear will notice a hiker wandering through "its" woods almost as quickly as the hiker would notice the bear wandering through his / her living room.
Black bear attack people. This, regrettably, is historic fact. There is no reason to believe anything has occurred to change the dynamics of human / bear interaction. That said, black bear attacks against people are extremely rare. If black bear wanted us, the woods would be strewn with our body parts. Everyone needs to realize there is no accumulation of such body parts, ANYWHERE.
If someone is afraid of a black bear attack, whether that fear is informed and rational or not, he / she is afraid. PERIOD. If they want to carry something to make them feel safer in black bear country, others of us need to realize, that is what they want. PERIOD.
I have read histories of people who successfully fought off attacking black bear as well as grizzly bear. These histories don’t include the successful shooting of bear since that act doesn’t usually fall within the category of “fighting off” bear. Very few people have fought off grizzly bear using only their bare hands, but fighting off black bear, barehanded is much more successful. The most successful resistance to bear attacks, by far, have been made using fixed blade knives - I have never read of the successful use of folding knives against bear.
In every case, the “losing” bear easily survived the encounter and virtually all the surviving humans required extensive reconstructive surgery. After surgery, all the people bore the signs of their encounter. The moral remains AVOID A CLOSE BEAR ENCOUNTER.
If you MUST carry something, carry a substantial knife readily available within your reach. A knife is a very useful tool for hiking anyway, as well as for fending off that attacking bear you are almost certain never to meet.
saimyoji
02-23-2006, 21:47
Bottom line: If it makes you feel more comfortable, then you should take it. Don't let the naysayers deter you. Its your hike, you have to make those 5 million steps, deal with the rain, snow, lightning...and bears.
All those people who say that its largely psychological should agree with this. If it will increase your chances of believing in yourself...take it along. If you find you don't need it, you can send it home or donate it to someone. If you do need it, you'll be glad you had it.
Arguing about the possibilities of encountering an agressive bear is moot, IMO. I've encountered bears in the most bear dense area of the AT and never had a problem. I did have my 8' blade unsheathed and in hand within 5 seconds of noticing the bears though.
KirkMcquest
02-23-2006, 21:52
Saimyo,
Exactly my point. Thank you
I can hardly imagine a worse way to go, than being killed by a bear.
What better way, after many years? No lingering pain, no lingering goodbys, no lingering dementia, (has anyone noticed yet?) just a bit of bear turd on the trail? Believe me. I just checked a moment ago. God won't care. Whatever, if anything, he prepares, he tells me, will still be available.
Weary
When I hike, I don't need any gun, knife , mace, or weapon of any kind. That's because I know that I'm already the most dangerous animal in the forest.
Panzer (the modest)
What better way, after many years? No lingering pain, no lingering goodbys, no lingering dementia, (has anyone noticed yet?) just a bit of bear turd on the trail? Believe me. I just checked a moment ago. God won't care. Whatever, if anything, he prepares, he tells me, will still be available.
Weary
While hiking in Ecuador in '94 at 13,000' near Pasochoa Caldera (http://www.moggely.com/Trekking/Images/pasochoa.jpg), I came down with altitude sickness. I really thought I was a goner. Well, we'd hiked up to the Paramo to see Andean Condors, and there they were circling above us. I told my friends that if I croaked to leave me there to let the Condors pick my bones clean. I imagined I'd end up as a Condor turd.
Well, the moral of the story is acclimatize, acclimatize, acclimatize.
KirkMcquest
02-24-2006, 00:43
. I imagined I'd end up as a Condor turd.
As opposed to??:-?
I carry firecrackers sometimes to scare off bears and dogs.
Never thought of that, good idea. Lightweight, easy to stash close to one's reach, and cheap. Thanks for the tip.:sun
Does anyone know of a person using bear spray against a black bear here in the eastern mountains? I'm unfamiliar with the products out there. Close range? 30 ft. stream? Do you wear th spray can on your hip belt? I guess one would try the product out kinda like shooting a gun out at the local practice range. As far as trying to change someones mind about the need to have it along on a hike, I learned a long time ago that I'm responsible for my pack and no one else's. All I can do beyond that is to put in my 2 cents.:sun
So do you folks hike with this spray in your hand? Or hanging on your belt? I would think it would be tough to stop a charging anything, take your pack off, and get the spray out. Just wondering about the practicality.
freefall
02-24-2006, 06:21
I always heard that wild animals are warded off by the smell of urine. SO just peeing your pants should be enough to stop `em.:D
I have only met one person carrying bear spray in the east. A section hiker named Blaze Orange that I spent the night with at the double shelters in he Bigelows. I forget the name of the place, but the shelters were built by LL Bean, and there is a caretaker. A very nice guy. His wife insisted that he carry the stuff, and so he did it to appease her. As a married guy myself, that sounded pretty reasonable.
On the Colorado Trail this summer I found a can of unused bear spray in the Mt. Massive Wilderness. Seriously. I carried it out of the woods and tried (briefly and unsuccsessfully) to barter with it for some ice cream at the store at Twin Lakes, but they didn't seem interested. I threw it away when I got back to my sister's place in Vail. I kept thinking about the poor bastard who lost it, and how scared they must have been without their bear spray. But at the same time, I didn't want to leave that pressurized can out in the woods.
Having that stuff on my person for one day and thinking that it could accidently discharge in my pack made me more nervous than any black bear ever has.
When it comes to black bears on the AT, my feelings are thus:
1. They are not going to attack you. The first one I ran into was in Virginia, and he scared the piss out of me because he blue-skied out of a tree right in front of me, and he dropped so quickly because he was in more of a hurry to get away from me than I was to avoid him. (And with good reason, since STATISTICALLY it is far more dangerous for the bear in these bear/human encounters). The others I saw either scooted away or eyeballed me seemingly without malice. I was frustrated that I could never get prudently close to one long enough to snap a good photo. Want to avoid a bear? WHistle while you walk, because they damn sure do not want to run into you.
2. If they are aggressive with you, it is probably because it's a mother bear defending her cubs and she is more interested in making a point ("Get away from my cubs stinkee!") than devouring you.
3. If a bear really wants to eat you, it is probably extremely deranged. At that point you probably will not see it coming until it is too late for you to reach into your pack or side pocket, pull out your mace, pick it up after you dropped it in your haste, made sure you were not getting ready to squirt the **** into your own eyes, aimed and shot.
I have this image of someone hiking through the Shenandoah's with bear spray in one hand, a .38 in the other, head on a swivel and a book in his backpack elucidating the benefits of relaxing in the woods. Bears are probably not on your list of problems when you hike the AT. Yes, he probably wants your snickers bar. No, he probably does not want to kill you for it.
Two Speed
02-24-2006, 10:12
I think VI+ gets the prize for the most common sense on this thread. I will add that thinking you're safe and actually being safe ain't the same thing; if you think bear spray is going to make you safe, well, believe what you want.
jaywalke
02-24-2006, 10:27
Bear spray is not guaranteed, but its proven to be reasonably effective
Reasonably effective against grizzlies, yes, but the (scant) evidence seems to suggest that black bears react to it very differently. According to Bear Attacks, Their Causes and Avoidance (excellent book, BTW) in several cases it seems to have provoked an attack, and I believe it made them flee much less often than it did vs. brown bears.
Bear spray in black bear country seems to be a very bad idea.
KirkMcquest
02-24-2006, 11:02
Reasonably effective against grizzlies, yes, but the (scant) evidence seems to suggest that black bears react to it very differently. According to Bear Attacks, Their Causes and Avoidance (excellent book, BTW) in several cases it seems to have provoked an attack, and I believe it made them flee much less often than it did vs. brown bears.
Bear spray in black bear country seems to be a very bad idea.
A recent study by the national park service has confirmed the effectiveness of bear spray against black bears. In more than 200 trials, no bear showed any signs of anger, even after being sprayed several times. Most bears RAN AWAY IMMEDIATLEY AFTER BEING SPRAYED. Check it out on www.bear.org (http://www.bear.org).
Also check out www.mountainnature.com (http://www.mountainnature.com) and www.bebearawaresw.org (http://www.bebearawaresw.org) to hear experts advising you to carry pepper spray in black bear country.:sun
KirkMcquest
02-24-2006, 11:08
On the www.bear.org (http://www.bear.org) site, click black bears, then how to camp in black bear country.
Also check out www.mountainnature.com (http://www.mountainnature.com) and www.bebearawaresw.org (http://www.bebearawaresw.org) to hear experts advising you to carry pepper spray in black bear country.:sun
What year did Stormin' Norman hike the AT?
That's the beauty of backpacking. You can carry a dutch oven, an extra pair of boots and a chaise lounge if you feel so inclined. :banana
Lone Wolf
02-24-2006, 11:29
You mean reclined.
KirkMcquest
02-24-2006, 11:37
What year did Stormin' Norman hike the AT?
That's the beauty of backpacking. You can carry a dutch oven, an extra pair of boots and a chaise lounge if you feel so inclined. :banana
We all know that we can carry whatever we want, this is obvious. My post concerned the EFFECTIVENESS of pepper spray, which is pretty much established.;)
Footslogger
02-24-2006, 11:47
IMHO ...the sound of the aerosol discharge is more likely to have an effect on the bear than the substance itself. In order for any protective device like that to be effective it has to be VERY close at hand and the user has to be VERY familiar and comfortable with its operation. A bear at close range (close enough for pepper spray) is a pretty big target and you'd have to get it in the bear's eye(s) or mouth in order for it to slow the bear down or be a real deterant.
Nothing worse than being confronted by a bear, grabbing for your pepper spray device and in the heat of the moment discharging it all over yourself. I have seen this happen. Not a pretty sight.
If your goal is to get the bear's attention and scare it away ...get "large" and make a lot of noise.
'Slogger
KirkMcquest
02-24-2006, 12:02
[quote=Footslogger]IMHO ...the sound of the aerosol discharge is more likely to have an effect on the bear than the substance itself. In order for any protective device like that to be effective it has to be VERY close at hand and the user has to be VERY familiar and comfortable with its operation. A bear at close range (close enough for pepper spray) is a pretty big target and you'd have to get it in the bear's eye(s) or mouth in order for it to slow the bear down or be a real deterant.
Nothing worse than being confronted by a bear, grabbing for your pepper spray device and in the heat of the moment discharging it all over yourself. I have seen this happen. Not a pretty sight.
If your goal is to get the bear's attention and scare it away ...get "large" and make a lot of noise./quote]
What do you have against pepper spray?? Did you lose money on some pepper spray stock??
Please see my previous posts for clear evidence of the effectiveness of pepper spray. These are facts. Not imaginary 'what if' scenarios, like you are too dumb to point and spray. By your logic, guns aren't effective either because you have to aim and shoot.
I am not trying to sell anyone on pepper spray, i am simply being logical. FACT: bears sometimes attack people. FACT: Bear spray is PROVEN to be fairly effective at detering a bear attack.
KirkMcquest
02-24-2006, 12:18
Here's another imaginary scenario for not hitting the bear with spray; Not carrying any.
FACT: snakes sometimes bite people. FACT: snake chaps are PROVEN to be fairly effective at deterring snake bite.
Opinion: I'd sooner carry Baltimore Jack than wear snake chaps or carry bear spray on the AT. :eek:
Footslogger
02-24-2006, 12:26
[quote=KirkMcquestPlease see my previous posts for clear evidence of the effectiveness of pepper spray. These are facts. Not imaginary 'what if' scenarios, like you are too dumb to point and spray. By your logic, guns aren't effective either because you have to aim and shoot.
==============================
I'm not going to debate this with you. I stated it as my opinion and it is what I do and would suggest to anyone who asked me.
As for guns ...I've seen people shoot themselves in the heat of the moment. They're quite effective but just like pepper spray, you've got to be accurate in order for them to have the desired effect.
That's all for me ...'Slogger out !!
And dont forget to ask the bear to stand downwind while you spray him. Many a spray has backfired becuse the user had the stuff blown back in their own face due to even the slightest breeze...
DirtMisquess
Why are you so worried about bears? You have made it well know that Scanky will be you REAR guard.Dont be such a damn sissy, besides with all your newly made WB friends that you have mouth off at,. Im sure you will have plenty of us hillbillies to take good care of you here in the south.
:eek:
If anyone is really afraid of being attacked by a bear they could always use the "cymbol" defense. This has been proven 100% effective, and so easy Kirk or anyone could do it.
The method:
1. Walk around to the rear of the bear.
2. Look under his tail. You will see two round things about half as big as a man's fist.
3. Grasp one in each hand.
4. Pull them apart and slam them together as if ringing cymbols in marching band.
5. The bear will then run away as fast as he can in whatever direction he is heading.
Kirk,
You advise (Post #101), “A recent study by the national park service has confirmed the effectiveness of bear spray against black bears. In more than 200 trials, no bear showed any signs of anger, even after being sprayed several times. Most bears RAN AWAY IMMEDIATLEY AFTER BEING SPRAYED.”
I visited the sites you recommended. A couple of them were very informative.
I didn’t find the “... recent study by the national park service (with) ... more than 200 trials ...”
Please provide the link for the study you referenced.
I was just wondering if anyone here carries any form of self defense from wildlife while on the AT? I completely understand that the chances of ever being attacked by anything are very low, but I am sure there are some who just feel more comfortable with some form of protection. From reading some of the posts on these forums, I have seen some mentions of bear deterrent spray. I personally carry a can of Guard Alaska, and I will admit that I just have it to make myself feel more comfortable - I know the chances of ever having to use it are almost non-existent. So, who else here carries some form of protection, and what do you carry? Also, has anyone ever encountered a situation where you actually had to use it?
It's interesting how in over 100 replies, my relatively simple question received only a 2 or 3 actual responses. It seems people here care much more about arguing with each other than they care about answering someones' question. I'd just like to thank those of you who had something of value to contribute to this post, and to the rest of you, if you feel like arguing with each other in the future, please do not do so in my post.
Kirk,
You advise (Post #101), “A recent study by the national park service has confirmed the effectiveness of bear spray against black bears. In more than 200 trials, no bear showed any signs of anger, even after being sprayed several times. Most bears RAN AWAY IMMEDIATLEY AFTER BEING SPRAYED.”
I visited the sites you recommended. A couple of them were very informative.
I didn’t find the “... recent study by the national park service (with) ... more than 200 trials ...”
Please provide the link for the study you referenced.
I found what he was talking about. It took about 15 seconds doing a google search. Go here: http://www.bear.org/Black/Articles/How_to_Camp_in_Black_Bear_Country.html
and then press control + F (to search), and enter the text "In more than 200 trials, no bear gave any sign of anger after being sprayed, sometimes repeatedly. Most immediately turned and ran, stopping eventually to rub their eyes. The repellent irritates the eyes for several minutes but causes no injury.". It will bring you to the section that contains the information you are searching for.
On a side note, if you ever are looking for some specific text on a specific website, you might find the following information useful. Go to google, and search for the following:
site:www.thesiteyouwant.com "the text you want to find"
For example, all I had to do to find the text you were looking for was type in this search:
site:bear.org "In more than 200 trials"
Have a nice day.
this will get the job done:cool: neo
http://freewebs.com/equilibrium-movie/BattyClericSidearmMD.jpg
In more than 200 trials, no bear showed any signs of anger, even after being sprayed several times. Most bears RAN AWAY IMMEDIATLEY AFTER BEING SPRAYED.
So.... the NPS is now into animal testing? :rolleyes:Lovely...
just tie my socks to my pack during the day, I let them air out next to the tent plus all the food I eat man those varments aint got a chance:D,ofcourse against people it keeps them at distance too!!kyonce again:-? ky
Dave568,
Thank you for the computer advice.
You may not have succeeded in bringing me into this century, but you’ve advanced my computer knowledge from the Middle Ages.
Excellent information.
Thanks, again,
Vi
this will get the job done:cool: neo
http://freewebs.com/equilibrium-movie/BattyClericSidearmMD.jpg
Interestingly enough, according to many studies I have read, the bear spray is more effective at persuading a bear to leave you alone than small firearms. Not to mention, it is a lot safer for the bear... :)
It's interesting how in over 100 replies, my relatively simple question received only a 2 or 3 actual responses. It seems people here care much more about arguing with each other than they care about answering someones' question.
Welcome to the real world...
Panzer
KirkMcquest
02-24-2006, 18:25
Kirk,
You advise (Post #101), “A recent study by the national park service has confirmed the effectiveness of bear spray against black bears. In more than 200 trials, no bear showed any signs of anger, even after being sprayed several times. Most bears RAN AWAY IMMEDIATLEY AFTER BEING SPRAYED.”
I visited the sites you recommended. A couple of them were very informative.
I didn’t find the “... recent study by the national park service (with) ... more than 200 trials ...”
Please provide the link for the study you referenced.
Use the same link, go to black bears, then 'camping in black bear country'. It's alittle tricky, the second time I went on it took me a couple of minutes to navigate to that section again. It's there!
I can see how you've confused the Rev. with myself, since we both made a monkey out of you in previous threads. I guess it follows that your mind would combine us into one frightening entity.
Here's something even more scary, there's two of us.:eek:
monkey out of me? lets see some examples there shi* brick.
KirkMcquest
02-24-2006, 18:46
It's interesting how in over 100 replies, my relatively simple question received only a 2 or 3 actual responses. It seems people here care much more about arguing with each other than they care about answering someones' question. I'd just like to thank those of you who had something of value to contribute to this post, and to the rest of you, if you feel like arguing with each other in the future, please do not do so in my post.
Dave, I apologize for my part in the arguing, your right, you asked a simple question and heard alot of crap.
I hope you will note that while I can be opinionated in my posts, most of what I said was rooted in fact, not emotion or speculation. I was also baited repeatedly ( note post 28 by mowgli, and ensuing posts) and personally attacked. It's difficult to completely ignore these things even though they are petty and juvenile. This is not an excuse, I've failed to rise above these things and again I apologize.;)
It's interesting how in over 100 replies, my relatively simple question received only a 2 or 3 actual responses. It seems people here care much more about arguing with each other than they care about answering someones' question. I'd just like to thank those of you who had something of value to contribute to this post, and to the rest of you, if you feel like arguing with each other in the future, please do not do so in my post.
Dave, with all due respect, many people responded to questions inside your thread starter. A reply of "no" and a reason why is a valid answer. Some hikers told you about other ways they protect themselves from wildlife, i.e. knife, firecrackers, their vocal cords, ect. I'll agree that there was some back and forth arguing, but that is going to be unavoidable when controversial subjects are brought up. What I find interesting is that I do not remember one hiker mentioning a brand name of bear spray that they carry how it works, and how they carry it along.:confused:
I was just wondering if anyone here carries any form of self defense from wildlife while on the AT? .............
Just hang with a hiker and their, usually unleashed, dog. You are almost guaranteed of NOT seeing wildlife, unless a bear is chasing the dog back to its owner and any fellow hikers.
That's not to say there aren't black bears in SC. There are lots of 'em. My Mom has a second home a few miles off of the Foothills Trail in the Upstate, and a few years ago she had a 450 pounder on her front porch (in the middle of the night). All it was interested in was her birdseed. In other words, if you're a sunflower seed, you got real reason to fear bears.
You are correct in the when you say "There are lots of 'em" The only time I have ever spotted a mother bear with two cubs was at Table Rock SP, terminus of the FHT. You can also check the SC Wildlife Com. site for "legal" Bear kills during the annual season. I would like to on record and say that Bear Hunting especially the illegal killing of bear is the most disgusting display of crap I've ever seen. A lot of this stuff is brought about by politics. Stories about bears starving, etc. in order to justify hunts is pure crap. Leave the bears along, hunt deer instead.
betic4lyf
02-24-2006, 23:01
i usually just bring my trusty numchucks and my badass ninja skills. those grizzlys never new what hit em. i am thinking of going with some heavier ones for my trip to alaska, to deal with polarbears. i have heard those things are heavy. and before you ask, they are dual use, i also use them for hunting moose, sometimes a nice buck if i am lazy. i can usually eat a moose in one sitting, but it gets tuff to finnish the second antler.
Dave, I apologize for my part in the arguing, your right, you asked a simple question and heard alot of crap.
I hope you will note that while I can be opinionated in my posts, most of what I said was rooted in fact, not emotion or speculation. I was also baited repeatedly ( note post 28 by mowgli, and ensuing posts) and personally attacked. It's difficult to completely ignore these things even though they are petty and juvenile. This is not an excuse, I've failed to rise above these things and again I apologize.;)
Actually, I found some of your posts to be the most informative... plus I agreed with everything you said ;)
Lone Wolf
02-25-2006, 14:06
I was just wondering if anyone here carries any form of self defense from wildlife while on the AT? I completely understand that the chances of ever being attacked by anything are very low, but I am sure there are some who just feel more comfortable with some form of protection. From reading some of the posts on these forums, I have seen some mentions of bear deterrent spray. I personally carry a can of Guard Alaska, and I will admit that I just have it to make myself feel more comfortable - I know the chances of ever having to use it are almost non-existent. So, who else here carries some form of protection, and what do you carry? Also, has anyone ever encountered a situation where you actually had to use it?
I carry a Glock model 29 10mm.
I carry a Glock model 29 10mm.
Very cool Wolf! I happen to tote the 23 myself
Lone Wolf
02-25-2006, 14:38
Ted Nugent's favorite handgun. Have you been to his talkback forum? www.tednugent.com check it out.
Just curious, you guys...have any of you participated in a bear hunt with those or similiar weapons? How'd they do against the bear? Not that the report wouldn't send im running even if you missed, but...would a wounded bear still try to do damage or run off? Not trying to join the to carry or not debate, just curious wether a handgun is useful in bear situation in principle. People are far more dangerous and I know the glock 29 works great against them....
Also, how much do they weigh, respectively, and what's the best "hiker gun" as far as weight vs. "stopping power"?
Just curious, you guys...have any of you participated in a bear hunt with those or similiar weapons? How'd they do against the bear? Not that the report wouldn't send im running even if you missed, but...would a wounded bear still try to do damage or run off? Not trying to join the to carry or not debate, just curious wether a handgun is useful in bear situation in principle. People are far more dangerous and I know the glock 29 works great against them....
Also, how much do they weigh, respectively, and what's the best "hiker gun" as far as weight vs. "stopping power"?
I have a nice rug on my floor...
I have no intention of carrying when I thru-hike. I have however, carried smaller firearms when I hike into areas that 1. have no cell phone coverage. 2. I am going solo (female hiker)
I am more worried about the wild boar in the areas that I hike than bears. The hogs will seek you out and chase you (been there, done that!) And at 300 pounds, 4" tusks, they have an advantage on me!
Yes, I have been trained in its proper use... I have been shooting since about 6 years old, 12 years in law enforcement and 3 police olympics, medal'd in all of them... I do not recommend that any/everyone carry. I am a big purporter of safety!!
Bfitz
My S&W has a scandium alloy frame with a titanium cylinder.Holds 5 rounds. It is 6 3/4 in overall length.Weighs 12 oz empty and no I do not carry it for bear.
If I were to carry for protection from animals it would be one of two favorites of my collection. 1 - Colt single action in .45 Long Colt cal. or 2 - Automag III in .30 carbine cal. Either would drop any wild hog and all but (maybe) the biggest bear such as grizzley or polar. The only time I would carry, though, would be when in hog territory where they were known to be a problem.
Bfitz
My S&W has a scandium alloy frame with a titanium cylinder.Holds 5 rounds. It is 6 3/4 in overall length.Weighs 12 oz empty and no I do not carry it for bear.
That really got me thinking! I have a S&W 442 Centennial Airweight... so I dug it out and put it on the scale... 15.2oz empty... I have a new use for my scale!!
If I were to carry for protection from animals it would be one of two favorites of my collection. 1 - Colt single action in .45 Long Colt cal. or 2 - Automag III in .30 carbine cal. Either would drop any wild hog and all but (maybe) the biggest bear such as grizzley or polar. The only time I would carry, though, would be when in hog territory where they were known to be a problem.
I was in Bankhead NF in NW Alabama just a few weeks ago and got chased by a sow w/ a litter of at least a dozen little ones! Wasnt expecting them to be there, so I was not prepared. I did learn that a hog wont go into freezing cold water after a human...:eek:
I was in Bankhead NF in NW Alabama just a few weeks ago and got chased by a sow w/ a litter of at least a dozen little ones! Wasnt expecting them to be there, so I was not prepared. I did learn that a hog wont go into freezing cold water after a human...:eek:
Never been in Bankhead, but I have been in Conecuh. Didn't see any hogs there though.
SGTdirtman
02-25-2006, 16:07
maybe if everyone wasnt spraying bears in the face with chemicals and yelling at them or trying to shoot them they wouldnt be so mean?
have you ever thought of maybe just being polite to the bear? maybe taking it out to dinner, whispering sweet nothings in its ear, buying it some flowers... tell the bear you love it then as soon as first light hits you run like theres no tomorrow and never call it again.
......have you ever thought of maybe just being polite to the bear? maybe taking it out to dinner, whispering sweet nothings in its ear, buying it some flowers... tell the bear you love it then as soon as first light hits you run like theres no tomorrow and never call it again.
Just like the Grizzly Man, Timothy Treadwell, the bears just eat it up!!
Just curious, you guys...have any of you participated in a bear hunt with those or similiar weapons? How'd they do against the bear? Not that the report wouldn't send im running even if you missed, but...would a wounded bear still try to do damage or run off? Not trying to join the to carry or not debate, just curious wether a handgun is useful in bear situation in principle. People are far more dangerous and I know the glock 29 works great against them....
Also, how much do they weigh, respectively, and what's the best "hiker gun" as far as weight vs. "stopping power"?
most folks who deer hunt in bear country carry a 44mag hand gun of some sort in conjunction with their rifle. as far as stopping power goes, nothing else is going to beat that. however, the ability to fire multiple rounds is beneficial as well. a 45colt round would probably do the trick as well. i've got a single shot derringer that holds a 45colt or a 4-10 shotgun shell for emergencies, and never have used it, and hope not to have to. i carry silver hollow points just in case of werewolves. you never know. i would say that anything less than a 10mm or 40cal would be immediately ineffective against a grizzly. it may die later, but would still have plenty of grit to make you it's last meal. i know people who bear hunt with as little as a 22mag rifle, and i wouldn't think that was very smart unless they can make a perfect head shot every time. any bear hunting i've ever done was with a ruger 10/44 44mag carbine, semi auto with several rounds in the magazine. it is very effective.
Lone Wolf
02-25-2006, 22:59
Just curious, you guys...have any of you participated in a bear hunt with those or similiar weapons? How'd they do against the bear? Not that the report wouldn't send im running even if you missed, but...would a wounded bear still try to do damage or run off? Not trying to join the to carry or not debate, just curious wether a handgun is useful in bear situation in principle. People are far more dangerous and I know the glock 29 works great against them....
Also, how much do they weigh, respectively, and what's the best "hiker gun" as far as weight vs. "stopping power"?
The gun ain't for bear. I carry a tuna for the bruins. We be buds.:D
Scots Guards
02-25-2006, 23:35
In the areas I hike we worry more about feral dogs than the other native wild critters. They can be terribly aggressive and vicious. We go armed just in case. There have been other attacks on hikers not to mention pets and livestock. Saddly the only thing that really scares them off at night is fire. Just one reason we like a nice camp fire, not to mention that really nice ambiance.
jaywalke
02-26-2006, 11:48
A recent study by the national park service has confirmed the effectiveness of bear spray against black bears. In more than 200 trials, no bear showed any signs of anger, even after being sprayed several times. Most bears RAN AWAY IMMEDIATLEY AFTER BEING SPRAYED. Check it out on www.bear.org (http://www.bear.org).
Something seems odd here. I would want to see the details of this trial to make sure we are not comparing apples to oranges. The data (although one sentence on a website isn't exactly 'data') seems incongruous with Herrero's work. Here's the quote that sparked my response. (I remembered it imperfectly, hence the re-post.)
"In 100 percent (4 of 4) of the encounters with aggressive and surprised, or possibly predaceous, black bears the spray appeared to stop the behavior that the bear was displaying immediately before being sprayed. Still, no black bears left in response to being sprayed, suggesting that you might need other means to deter such bears-or large quantities of pepper spray. In 73 percent (19 of 26) of incidents involving curious black bears, pepper spray appeared to stop the behavior. The bear left the area in 54 percent (14 of twenty-six) of the cases, but in six of these fourteen cases it returned. In 62 percent (8 of 13) of the incidents where the black bear received a substantial dose of pepper spray to the face, it either did not leave the area of left and returned. I can't explain the apparently different effects of pepper spray on black and grizzzly bears. More research is needed."
- Stephen Herrero (2002 revised edition) Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance
Nothing about the spray causing aggression, my memory must be faulty. However, the odds above are not great and they seem to be out of line with the FS trial quoted in passing. The difference may lie in the fact that one is a trial (which means controlled conditions, the equivalent of spraying caged bears) and Herrero's is a study of field reports. He even points out in the book that the reason he looked at the data in the first place was a bear spray maker's controlled trial that claimed 100% effectiveness. As pointed out, though, these were not "highly motivated bears on their home turf." The data above looks at unbiased records of incidents in the field over a ten year period where people used pepper spray to try to deter the advance of an aggressive or curious bear.
So, there are two possibilities. Either black bears have changed a great deal as a species in ten years (Herrero's data set ends in 1994, no date given for the FS trial) or the conditions were different. The data presented above gives much worse odds of the spray working well in the field. Without more detail (such as the conditions, and how many bears returned after being sprayed) the FS trial referenced above seems suspicious.
Remember: Vioxx was also safe and effective in trials. "Three types of untruths: Lies, lies, and statistics." (mangled Mark Twain quote)
__________________________________________________ _________
Personally, I carried grizzly spray in the West when I was hiking in an area with a high population during a heavy feeding time (fall, north of the Tetons). I spend most of my time hiking in black bear country, and would never even consider using it there.
So, in a long roundabout answer to the first poster -- I don't carry any self-defense. Carry spray if you like on the AT, but if you truly want to be prepared for everything also carry an epi-pen, whole wheat bread, heat packs, and a parachute because bees, cholesterol, hypothermia and heights are a lot deadlier than bears. :-]
To each their own . . .
carolinahiker
02-26-2006, 11:53
Hhhmmm what about killer land sharks lol
carolinahiker
02-26-2006, 11:57
Hey Ed bell where you at in upstate sc im in mauldin. email me at
[email protected]
carolinahiker
02-26-2006, 12:00
That will work slam my balls together like cymbals ill sent and olympic sprint record for the freestyle trail run. lol roflmao
bfitz,
I was an avid hunter of deer. I have not hunted bear with anything, nor do I have that desire.
You ask about “stopping power” (Post #135). If you’re asking about the penetration of handgun projectiles and the energy they impart, they aren’t impressive against bear. Handguns were developed to stop people. Some handguns have advanced to large animal stopping as well but they’re large and heavy.
Some people are in love with the 44 Magnum handgun. The 44 Magnum Myth is loved by its manufacturers. The 44 Magnum round fired from the standard long handgun barrel has the same ballistic coefficient as the lowly 410 shotgun slug fired from the standard shotgun barrel. Go ahead, bear, make my day! Go ahead, answer all those inquiring hikers. Tell them you’re carrying that 410 shotgun as protection from attacking bears.
I’ve forgotten some of the fine points, but as regards the relative stopping power of the nine millimeter vs 45 caliber rounds, they were equivalent to dropping a standard carpenter’s hammer from a height of six feet and eight feet, respectively, on your foot. Please, tell all those other hikers you’re carrying your hammer as protection from attacking bears.
The 10 Millimeter vs 40 Caliber trade-off. [It has been a while since I retired from law enforcement, and we never carried either round, so forgive me if I forget the sequence and juxtapose the rounds.] The FBI decided it needed to advance beyond the 38 Caliber revolver, due largely to a badly botched shooting in Florida. Weapon “failure” had much more to do with the faster reloading time of the semi-automatic handgun and the greater number of rounds transferred by the reloading cycle, over the revolver, than improved “stopping power.”
Smith & Wesson developed a round (I’ll identify it as the 40 Caliber, although it may have been the 10 Millimeter) for the FBI. It worked quite well. Until they realized smaller framed agents developed a flinch from the increased felt recoil and their accuracy suffered greatly. S&W reduced the gunpowder. Things got better but still needed improvement. S&W reduced the gunpowder some more. This continued until the round S&W had spent a lot of time, effort, and money developing was diminished in performance to the point where they realized serious shooters wouldn't be willing to buy it. S&W salvaged its investment by developing another round (which I’ll identify as the 10 Millimeter; although this may be just the other way around).
The moral of all this is, there is a lot of hype regarding firearms. A LOT. Organizations, businesses, magazine staffs, and book publishers all benefit from continuing our beloved illusions.
Some bear will be turned away by the noise of a firearm discharging. Some hikers, I’ve recently discovered here, are considering carrying firecrackers to have that effect. Good idea. I’m prepared not to snicker upon seeing the first hiker, with hiking poles lashed to the pack, carrying a firecracker in one hand and a lighter in the other.
It is not unusual to find bear living with wounds from arrows, shotgun pellets and slugs, handgun and rifle bullets. Bear sometimes respond by attacking the person who injured them.
I have acquired all sorts of weapons, including so many firearms I keep finding ones I had forgotten about. Handguns I own range from 22 Caliber, Short, through 454 Cassul. I have shoulder weapons from 22 Caliber through 10 Gauge shotgun.
Almost any firearm will have the desired effect, IF the bear is standing upright, very close to and right in front of you, IF you are lucky enough the bear doesn’t cuff you aside before it opens its mouth, IF you manage to keep your nerve to this point, and IF you shoot just the right place through its mouth.
I take no weapons along hiking.
You ask, “(H)ow much do (weapons) weigh, respectively, and what's the best ‘hiker gun’ as far as weight vs. ‘stopping power’?”
Pick up a nearby substantial rock.
betic4lyf
02-26-2006, 17:19
or some numchucks
I take no weapons along hiking.
You ask, “(H)ow much do (weapons) weigh, respectively, and what's the best ‘hiker gun’ as far as weight vs. ‘stopping power’?”
Pick up a nearby substantial rock.
Vi+:
Thanks for reiterating what I said 132 posts ago. After reading your post, maybe the folks intent on carrying something for self defense will finally understand that it's not necessary. In the wilds of Montana or Alaska? Perhaps. On the "wild" A.T.? No.
Some bear will be turned away by the noise of a firearm discharging. Some hikers, I’ve recently discovered here, are considering carrying firecrackers to have that effect. Good idea. I’m prepared not to snicker upon seeing the first hiker, with hiking poles lashed to the pack, carrying a firecracker in one hand and a lighter in the other.
I believe this was suggested for scaring off a problem bear after other methods fail, not as a "quick draw" type method for fending off an attacking bear.
Pick up a nearby substantial rock
I've got a couple of buddies who have had to use the rock method on a problem bear near Spence Field Shelter back in the 80's. Seems to be my experience that the most problamatic bears are the ones in SNP and GSMNP that are able to avoid being hunted. That changes the whole relationship. Here in SC there are a ton of bears in the upstate, but you'd be lucky to see one.
KirkMcquest
02-26-2006, 23:32
Vi+:
Thanks for reiterating what I said 132 posts ago. After reading your post, maybe the folks intent on carrying something for self defense will finally understand that it's not necessary. In the wilds of Montana or Alaska? Perhaps. On the "wild" A.T.? No.
As we know, the facts tend to differ with your opinion. Black bears can be dangerous, this is not up for debate. Telling people that they will never need to defend themselves on the A.T ( against whatever), is not only wrong, it's down right irresponsible.
As we know, the facts tend to differ with your opinion. Black bears can be dangerous, this is not up for debate. Telling people that they will never need to defend themselves on the A.T ( against whatever), is not only wrong, it's down right irresponsible.
Yeah, right Kirk. Whatever you say. ;)
Scots Guards
03-08-2006, 02:44
Most handguns of any caliber are really to light to stop bears effectivly. I'd not go after bear with anything less than a rifle in .308 cal. That being said, carrying a rifle IS a bit conspicious and you aren't really hunting them. You are trying to fend them off in an emergency. Carrying any type of firearm defensivly is a tradeoff factoring in size,weight,stopping power,portabilaty and concealabilaty. There is also the "What in God's name are you carrying that thing on the trail for?" factor. You can't have everything without size,weight and bulk. I personaly feel a 9mm or a .45ACP is plenty for most situations. The stopping power is pretty good and most any trained adult can handle them well. I usualy carrry my Beretta M-9 or my 1911 Commander when hiking or camping; though I have carried my M-14 or FAL (both .308) on occasion just for the heck of it. (BTW, I freehike on some REALLY huge tracts of consevency land here in Pa. This is open for hunting or whatever as long as it's not wheeled vehicle use.) My wife has been known to just carry her .380 when hiking or biking as it's really small and concealable. She's more concerned with the two legged predators when hiking,biking or hitching a ride than the bears.
Oh and let's not go into the legality thing here, please. It's been done.
....Seems to be my experience that the most problamatic bears are the ones in SNP and GSMNP that are able to avoid being hunted. That changes the whole relationship. Here in SC there are a ton of bears in the upstate, but you'd be lucky to see one.
That is certainly true in Maine, which has 30-40,000 bears(?) and a lengthy bear hunting season. Occasionally a bear will cause problems in Baxter Park, where hunting is banned. ONly rarely does a nuicance bear emerge elsewhere.
I forget the total bear population in Maine, but we have more bears per square mile than most states and almost no bear problem. A local trapper tells me that there are bears living in my town.
I walk in the woods several miles a day, several days a week. I have never seen a bear in my town and only rarely to I catch of glimpse of one elsewhere in Maine.
Weary
If you bark like a dog that'll usually scare them off. Just don't take a real dog with you.
betic4lyf
03-08-2006, 12:55
why is this discussion still going on? Just get some num-chucks, and learn how to use them. if you are really worried, get some brass nuckles, but only if you know there will be some rabid bears, or zombies.;)
I had a real dog with me last spring when a Black Bear spotted us in the Maine woods. A standoff ensued with the Bear gawking at us and dog barking at Mr Bear, at close range the Bear made the right decision and ran away fast. Good thing, my dog(named BEAR) would have chewed him up!
As we know, the facts tend to differ with your opinion. Black bears can be dangerous, this is not up for debate. Telling people that they will never need to defend themselves on the A.T ( against whatever), is not only wrong, it's down right irresponsible.
Since this thread is about wildlife/black bears, talking about protection against "whatever" seems to introduce scenarios that are more complex than fear of wildlife confrontations. I thought we were talking about carrying something for self defence against wildlife. What bear spray do you carry, Kirk? I only ask because you had apologized earlier for:
my part in the arguing, your(sic) right, you asked a simple question and heard a lot of crap.
Why won't you answer the question if you have such a strong opinion on this? After all, if you are gonna bother to apologize to the guy, shouldn't you at least answer his direct question?
KirkMcquest
03-10-2006, 02:44
Since this thread is about wildlife/black bears, talking about protection against "whatever" seems to introduce scenarios that are more complex than fear of wildlife confrontations. I thought we were talking about carrying something for self defence against wildlife. What bear spray do you carry, Kirk? I only ask because you had apologized earlier for:
Why won't you answer the question if you have such a strong opinion on this? After all, if you are gonna bother to apologize to the guy, shouldn't you at least answer his direct question?
If you read Dave's statement, you'll see that he refered to 'SElf-defense' in general, not just against bears, although the conversation drifted in that direction. I think I answered the question pretty thoroughly, and gave ( as Dave himself said) some of the only useful advice regarding the effectiveness and wisdom of using bear spray. What exactly is your question, Ed??
The deadliest weapon in the world is the human BRAIN.
You arm it by PAYING ATTENTION.
You deploy it by THINKING.
Also,
My Mother once gave me a wise piece of advice, "Never carry a weapon that you don't want used on you."
btw, a SOLID wood staff is all Moses needed.
KirkMcquest
03-10-2006, 03:05
The deadliest weapon in the world is the human BRAIN.
You arm it by PAYING ATTENTION.
You deploy it by THINKING.
Also,
My Mother once gave me a wise piece of advice, "Never carry a weapon that you don't want used on you."
btw, a SOLID wood staff is all Moses needed.
Dude, this is the real world. Want to use your brain?? Bring something that might be of use BEFORE you step in the woods ( no offense to your MA, I've got one too)
Jack Tarlin
03-10-2006, 03:22
Actually, a great deal has NOT been covered here.
*Folks need to know, for example, that not all sprays are deemed the same in the eyes of the law: In some cases, cayenne-based sprays are OK; certain chemical sprays, similar to mace, are not. Being caught with the "wrong" kind can get you fined or arrested.
*The spray you bought before the trip will not be legal everywhere; while
PEPPER spray is technically legal in all 50 states, there are regulations and
rules you should know. One is also restricted on WHERE and HOW one can
purchase it....such states as New York, Masachusetts, Wisconsin, and
Michigan have spearate laws regarding use and purchase of sprays by their
residents. (I.e. a Mass resident caught using spray he purchased in North
Carolina could go to jail, especially if he doesn't have appropriate Mass.
permits for same).
*Don't carry it on a plane. You could get a $25,000 fine and go away for
a long time. It's probably OK in checked luggage, but you'd better check
first.
*There are certain places (some Federal lands, locations, jurisdictions, etc.
where it's illegal, and these aren't necessarily posted. Sprays are illegal
in all Federal facilities unless you're a law enforcement officer or have
special permission; this technically means that if you wear or carry spray
into a Post Office or Park Ranger's office, you're breaking the law.
I think you get the idea.
Anyone thinking of carrying spray as a defense tool should absolutely take some time to learn the necessary rules and regulations, and remember, you'll be going thru 14 states, and thru all sorts of differently regulated areas----
National Parks, State Parks, State Game Lands, Nature Preserves, National
Historic Areas, National Forests, etc. It is almost a certainty that carrying
sprays (never mind other defensive itemms or weapons) will be illegal in certain areas and you'd better know where these areas are. This is especially important as your spray will invariably be on your person or attached to your pack, within reach, and therefore within public view, including the view of interested law enforcement personnel.
Folks planning to carry sprays should also make sure they know how to use them.
In 11 years, I have NEVER personally heard of an A.T. thru-hiker using spray
as a defense against bears. I have heard of two who accidentally sprayed other people and one who sprayed himself. Pepper spray is a weapon; it's not to be used lightly, and should not be carried or used by the untrained.
That being said, to answer the original question, the vast majority of long-distance hikers do not carry defensive devices or weapons to be used in the case of atack by wild animals; the vast majority of long-distance hikers
do not feel it is necessary or desirable to carry such items.
KirkMcquest
03-10-2006, 03:53
Some good advice, though it doesn't change ( or necessarily fly in the face of) the FACTS that I have laid down
Jack Tarlin
03-10-2006, 04:06
Glad you liked the advice, but here's the FACTS, son:
1. Most hikers don't carry defensive weaponry. Period.
2. Most hikers don't feel the need for it. Period.
3. Most hikers don't worry about bears. Period.
4. You don't know jack-diddly about the realities of life on the A.T. Period.
5. How many A.T. miles you got anyway? Feel free to tell us.
6. Don't bother answering that one . We've been down this road before.
7. Re-read #4 above, as often as necessary.
'Night.
Lone Wolf
03-10-2006, 08:21
The deadliest weapon in the world is the human BRAIN.
You arm it by PAYING ATTENTION.
You deploy it by THINKING.
Also,
My Mother once gave me a wise piece of advice, "Never carry a weapon that you don't want used on you."
btw, a SOLID wood staff is all Moses needed.
Wrong. The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle.
"The only thing to fear on the AT is fear itself"
I think if I were as concerned as KirkMcquest is about defending myself on the trail, I would stay in the comfort of my livingroom and forget about the whole thing.
KirkMcquest
03-10-2006, 11:12
Glad you liked the advice, but here's the FACTS, son:
1. Most hikers don't carry defensive weaponry. Period.
2. Most hikers don't feel the need for it. Period.
3. Most hikers don't worry about bears. Period.
4. You don't know jack-diddly about the realities of life on the A.T. Period.
5. How many A.T. miles you got anyway? Feel free to tell us.
6. Don't bother answering that one . We've been down this road before.
7. Re-read #4 above, as often as necessary.
'Night.
A. Your just a sad old man, with nothing in his life but the AT. (which explains your viscious assault on anyone who threatens your self-perceived 'expertise'
B. If you've read through the thread instead of popping your mouth off, you might have something valid to add here.
C. See fact A, read over and over again, until it sinks through ( it might take a while)
KirkMcquest
03-10-2006, 11:15
"The only thing to fear on the AT is fear itself
Tell that to the murder victims, and those recently attacked by black bears. If only your wishes were in accord with the real world
If you read Dave's statement, you'll see that he refered to 'SElf-defense' in general, not just against bears, although the conversation drifted in that direction.
He was asking about self defence against wildlife, and although you have hinted at the fact you carry bear spray, you have never talked about a brand, or how you actually carry it while walking. I said earlier that I don't know about the products, I'm just curious. The only mention of a brand was by a fellow who worked for an electric company and he said it just pissed the dog off.
KirkMcquest
03-10-2006, 11:43
Glad you liked the advice, but here's the FACTS, son:
1. Most hikers don't carry defensive weaponry. Period.
2. Most hikers don't feel the need for it. Period.
3. Most hikers don't worry about bears. Period.
4. You don't know jack-diddly about the realities of life on the A.T. Period.
5. How many A.T. miles you got anyway? Feel free to tell us.
6. Don't bother answering that one . We've been down this road before.
7. Re-read #4 above, as often as necessary.
'Night.
Here are my responses;
1. SO?
2. SO?
3. SO?
4. Wrong, let's not magnify the one thing you know how to do
5. None of your business, it's more important for you to realize that the number of miles you've hiked does not entitle you to be arrogant.
6. Too late
7. Why would I want to read more of your misinformation?
Tell that to the murder victims, and those recently attacked by black bears. If only your wishes were in accord with the real world
So, of the 30-40 million Appalachian Trail users in the last 10 years, exactly how many murder victims and people attacked by bears are we talking about?
Hint: You can count them all on one hand.
KirkMcquest
03-10-2006, 12:00
He was asking about self defence against wildlife, and although you have hinted at the fact you carry bear spray, you have never talked about a brand, or how you actually carry it while walking. I said earlier that I don't know about the products, I'm just curious. The only mention of a brand was by a fellow who worked for an electric company and he said it just pissed the dog off.
Ed, I carried something called 'counter-assault', when hiking in Montana bear country. To be honest, I'm not sure I will carry any on the AT. I might be willing to take my chances. What I was forced to argue were the unalterable 'facts' regarding the possibility of bear attack, and the effectiveness of bear spray. Wisdom dictates bringing some ( I mean it weighs nothing really), but like wearing my seatbelt I sometimes don't do what's obviously wise.
P.S-
I'm not sure dogs and bears react the same way to getting sprayed. A wild animal almost never wants a 'fight' with something that isn't prey. Where as dogs are bred to be fearless ( a most unnatural trait) and fight even at risk to there own safety. This is just my 'gut feeling', but I'll bet there's something to it. Even so, mail men have been carrying spray for years ( for use against dogs).
KirkMcquest
03-10-2006, 12:03
So, of the 30-40 million Appalachian Trail users in the last 10 years, exactly how many murder victims and people attacked by bears are we talking about?
Hint: You can count them all on one hand.
It only has to happen once to you.
Jack Tarlin
03-10-2006, 12:03
Your role models are mail men?
Geez, when you're about to go postal on us, please provide some advance notice!
It only has to happen once to you.
Like you said, I'll continue to "take my chances" on the AT. Frankly, I like the odds.
If & when I hike in Griz Country, I'll carry bear spray.
KirkMcquest
03-10-2006, 12:10
I here what your saying about the odds, but don't forget all the dog attacks ( ridge's story) that might be prevented with some spray.
Alligator
03-10-2006, 12:17
I here what your saying about the odds, but don't forget all the dog attacks ( ridge's story) that might be prevented with some spray.
Ridge has some serious credibility issues at this time.
I here what your saying about the odds, but don't forget all the dog attacks ( ridge's story) that might be prevented with some spray.
Been there - done that. Read this enty in my journal if you're interested to learn how I dealt effectively with the situation.
http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=86782
MOWG, you said what I was about to say except out West I myself would carry a something like a Russian 44. I would never attempt to spray any Bar.
KirkMcquest
03-10-2006, 12:22
Nice!......
Mcquest, you are your own worst enemy. It is evident by your fear of the unknown.
AbeHikes
03-10-2006, 13:40
Wrong. The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle.
I would have been disappointed if I hadn't seen you post that.
AbeHikes
03-10-2006, 13:46
I here what your saying about the odds, but don't forget all the dog attacks ( ridge's story) that might be prevented with some spray.
I've used pepper spray (oleoresin capsicum) on dogs. I've used it on people. All of the dogs were affected. About 2/3 of the people were. The other 1/3 just blinked and kept struggling. Then, I had to get the cuffs on them while my nose ran like a faucet.
I'm not sure I'd use it on a big bear.
If you're going to carry it, you ought to use it once on yourself so you won't be surprised by the effect when it blows back or gets transferred on you.
The other 1/3 just blinked and kept struggling. Then, I had to get the cuffs on them while my nose ran like a faucet.
Crystal Meth I presume?
Jack Tarlin
03-10-2006, 13:51
Abe's post is one of the most sensible on this entire thread.
AbeHikes
03-10-2006, 13:53
Crystal Meth I presume?
Possible, but not really. Some people are just not affected by it, being based on cayenne pepper. Just like some people have a tolerance for spicy foods.
Spray some of that on your chimichanga! (Don't really. The stuff tastes horrible.)
AbeHikes
03-10-2006, 13:59
Abe's post is one of the most sensible on this entire thread.
Thanks much.
I guess I should clarify the "not on a big bear" comment. I suppose if an attack was imminent, I would try to beat the bear away with a feather pillow if I thought it would help. However, I would probably try the "Hey, I'm not a threat approach" first and try to avoid the situation. I'd be worried that the spray would just piss the bear off worse. It's not a guarantee to end the confrontation... just like with people.
icemanat95
03-10-2006, 14:05
bfitz,
The 10 Millimeter vs 40 Caliber trade-off. [It has been a while since I retired from law enforcement, and we never carried either round, so forgive me if I forget the sequence and juxtapose the rounds.] The FBI decided it needed to advance beyond the 38 Caliber revolver, due largely to a badly botched shooting in Florida. Weapon “failure” had much more to do with the faster reloading time of the semi-automatic handgun and the greater number of rounds transferred by the reloading cycle, over the revolver, than improved “stopping power.”
Smith & Wesson developed a round (I’ll identify it as the 40 Caliber, although it may have been the 10 Millimeter) for the FBI. It worked quite well. Until they realized smaller framed agents developed a flinch from the increased felt recoil and their accuracy suffered greatly. S&W reduced the gunpowder. Things got better but still needed improvement. S&W reduced the gunpowder some more. This continued until the round S&W had spent a lot of time, effort, and money developing was diminished in performance to the point where they realized serious shooters wouldn't be willing to buy it. S&W salvaged its investment by developing another round (which I’ll identify as the 10 Millimeter; although this may be just the other way around)..
Re: dropping hammers to simulate the impact of bullets. There are different ways of transfering energy. A 180 pound man falling out of bed, delivers energy equal to the impact of a .45 ACP bullet to the floor, over a very large area. The hammer falling from 8 feet is also transfering it's energy over a much larger area than the point of a bullet. When you concentrate that same energy into a space that is less than 1/2 inch across, things change dramatically. The tissue under the bullet must absorb all that energy or be torn and penetrated, the remaining energy passes through the the next layer and the next, and the next. It's not as simple as just the foot pound delivered.
The 10mm Auto cartridge was developed in the late 1970's or early 80's and mated to the Bren Ten handgun, a custom adaptation of the CZ-75. An attempt was made to put it into production and a number were made to very warm receptions, but problems with magazine supplies and ammunition supplies killed the project before it really had a chance to get off the ground. The Bren Ten was Sonny Crocket's pistol of choice for at least one season of Miami Vice, but they couldn't keep the prop gun running and couldn't get repair parts or magazines for it making it more trouble than it was worth. They converted to an S&W .45 ACP.
The Miami shooting was heavily dissected by many agencies. They discovered that the standard issue 9mm ball ammunition (115 grain JHP ammunition failed to adequately penetrate body work of the car being driven by the two bad guys. And when they did penetrate, they lacked the wounding power to cause rapid hypovolemic shock due to narrow wound channels and insufficient penetration. Whiel many agents were issued .357 magnum revolvers, they were habitually loaded down to .38 special, which is a bit lighter than the 9mm. While both of the bad guys received multiple fatal wounds, they were not incapacitated by them until one agent managed to start pumping OO buckshot into them. ALL the FBI agents involved were wounded. The Special Agent In Charge was crippled, at least three agents were killed. Both of the criminals were eventually killed.
The FBI developed a set of criteria for evaluating acceptable cartridges for field use. The .357 Magnum, .45 ACP, some +P+ loadings of .38 special and a heavy subsonic 9mm loading (147 grain jacketed hollow point Winchester Silvertip) were found acceptable. The 10mm Auto was also found very acceptable. While the .41 and 44 magnum were also found acceptable, they were found not practical. The FBI contracted Smith and Wesson to develop a 10mm Auto pistol in stainless steel, which they did. It was a large framed monster with some technical problems (all S&W autoloaders of that generation shared some design issues). It was soon discovered that besides the technical problems, smaller framed agents or agents with small hands, had difficulty controlling the full power 10mm loads. As a compromise, the FBI had S&W develop a regular carry, reduced power 10mm round, which S&W did. This worked well, producing sufficient power without overwhelming recoil. It also allowed the agents to carry a spare magazine of full power ammunition for use against harder targets, subjects barricaded behind doors or in vehicles.
Smith and Wesson looked at the reduced power 10mm load and reasoned that there was no reason that the same bullet could not be loaded to the same velocity in a shorter cartridge. So they worked it out and developed the .40 S&W round, which has been a smashing success both commercially and in law enforcement. It produces energies similar to the .45 ACP in a more compact cartridge, thus allowing more of them to be loaded into a magazine, or into a smaller package. Smith and Wesson failed to capture market share on the firearm end of the deal however, as Glock beat them to market with two new pistols for the cartridge, the Models 22 and 23. I owned a model 23 and was never really able to get used to it, but it is very well regarded.
As for the full power 10mm, Glock makes 2 or 3 models, Colt used to make the Delta Elite 1911A1 in 10mm Auto. I'm not sure who else makes handguns for the caliber. H&K used to make a 10mm version of the MP5 submachingun specifically for the FBI. The Glock 10mm Auto is a very popular choice for black bear hunters because it packs a significant whallop, is reasonably compact and easy to use and accurate to the ranges required considering that much bear hunting is done by use of dogs that tree the bear and render it a relatively helpless target.
icemanat95
03-10-2006, 14:45
Any self-defense tool you choose to carry as a measure against animals of whatever sort, MUST be close at hand. If you've got to open a zipper to get at it, you might as well not be carrying it. If, on the off chance, a true defensive situation arises, it's going to happen REAL fast and you won't have time to fumble or try to remember the directions that you read one time.
I've got a small can of pepper spray here that I need to get rid of, it expired in 2005. To use it, you've got to rotate the spray plunger about 45 degrees and then press down. the only tactile index on the cannister is the tab on the plunger. When I purchased this cannister, I bought two others just like it and used them to practice, so I could teach myself to rotate the plunger adn aim the thing, and figure out how far was reasonably accurate, etc. My advice to anyone considering carrying such a thing for self-defense, would be to do the same. If you have to stop and think about how to use something, you are not going to have time to use it. Practice, practice, practice, and when you get tired of practicing, practice some more.
A good stout stick is probably your most practical, universally legal, self-defense tool on the trail. It provides distance, it provides solid stiking power in both the swing and thrust, and in the hands of a hiker or walker, it is totally innocuous. Boyd's gunstocks offers some in epoxy pressure laminated birch. They are extremely tough, moderately attractive and fairly affordable. As an alternative you could get a white oak jo or bo staff from a good martial arts supplier. Japanese White Oak is a very tough wood. A good domestic alternative is hickory from Kingfisher Woodworks, like this one: http://mivasecure.abac.com/kingfisherwoodworks/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=001&Product_Code=017 It is specifically made for hiking, but with some defensive capability in mind. At 95.00 USD it's a bit pricey, but it's American made, by hand, from a specific stand of super tough hickory. A Japanese White Oak 5 shaku bo staff (about 5 feet long) would cost about 41.00 USD to order from Japan, plus shipping. http://bokkenshop.com/eng/543.html. Want to actually learn to use a staff as a weapon? I suggest finding an instructor of Shinto Muso Ryu jojutsu.
darkstar
03-19-2006, 04:29
Why not just carry a small air horn on your belt. My mom used to do it at my hockey games growing up.... It scared the be-jesus out of everyone in the rink every time it went off. You knew it was going to go off after a goal, but still you jump. I'm sure a bear would take take off in the opposite direction at the first sound of that. Funny thought...My second car was an '84 Buick "Riv-e-ira", it had a horn like a train. You could try that or possibly run em down if you could get it past the trailhead...
This is my first post on this forum. So I assume it's time to sound the airhorn, grab the mace and let the hazing begin..
Why not just carry a small air horn on your belt. My mom used to do it at my hockey games growing up.... It scared the be-jesus out of everyone in the rink every time it went off. You knew it was going to go off after a goal, but still you jump. I'm sure a bear would take take off in the opposite direction at the first sound of that. Funny thought...My second car was an '84 Buick "Riv-e-ira", it had a horn like a train. You could try that or possibly run em down if you could get it past the trailhead...
This is my first post on this forum. So I assume it's time to sound the airhorn, grab the mace and let the hazing begin..
10 characters :welcome
I was just wondering if anyone here carries any form of self defense from wildlife while on the AT? I completely understand that the chances of ever being attacked by anything are very low, but I am sure there are some who just feel more comfortable with some form of protection. From reading some of the posts on these forums, I have seen some mentions of bear deterrent spray. I personally carry a can of Guard Alaska, and I will admit that I just have it to make myself feel more comfortable - I know the chances of ever having to use it are almost non-existent. So, who else here carries some form of protection, and what do you carry? Also, has anyone ever encountered a situation where you actually had to use it?
i long for the day when someone will mess with me:cool: neo
http://www.freewebs.com/equilibrium-movie/anderson.GIF
Want to actually learn to use a staff as a weapon? I suggest finding an instructor of Shinto Muso Ryu jojutsu.
Another alternative is Rokushaku bojutsu. I'm such a novice I've yet to do anything but make myself look stupid as He!! and garner some laughs from those watching! :sun
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12309606/
Nice Metallica quote, Tudor...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12309606/
That is not all that far from the Benton Mackaye Trail.
More info;
http://www.newschannel9.com/engine.pl?station=wtvc&id=4069&template=breakout_story1.shtml&dateformat=%25M+%25e,%25Y
I carry a Glock model 29 10mm.
That's a great choice. My first year I carried a Smith 386 SC Scandium framed .357 magnum with the heaviest semi-wadcutters I could find, for penetration. It was nice and light, but the Scandium material was not very weather resistant, and began to corrode after the first week.
Last time out I switched to a Glock 32 in .357 Sig. I liked the weight, and the weather resistance was great, as expected. No rust at all, and the ability to mount a Surefire light was a big plus. I rigged a kydex holster that fully covered the trigger guard, and fitted it into a fanny pack. The holster was connected by a small C-clamp, by drilling a hole in the kydex, and attaching it to a ring on the inner pouch of the fanny pack. Adding some extra parachute cord to the pack's zipper, and I had an extremely safe carry method, that was very quick into action, even while wearing a full pack. The fanny pack merely rode on top of my hip strap, and never came off of me, even when I dropped my pack. The drawbacks were the lack of heavier bullets in the .357 Sig caliber, so penetration on a thick skinned animal would not be ideal, but it's a very effective round on perps, and thus a good compromise.
I own a Colt Delta Elite 10mm, but it's far too heavy to consider. The 10mm is the best choice for hikers who need a caliber that's effective on people and black bear. It's the equivalent of a lighter .41 magnum load, and plenty of bears have been taken with the .41 over the years. Carrying a .41 or .44 mag revolver would be quite a burden.
A Glock 29 would be my second choice, over a full sized 20, for the extra barrel length, and 5 extra rounds.
Always carry an extra mag, not for extra ammo, but in case your primary mag fails.
Btw, I have put in a fair share of miles over the past two seasons, and I never announced I was carrying, nor did anyone notice, as I did not want to put those who are irrationally gun-phobic in a tizzy.
That changed my last trip out, when I was hiking with my 10 year old son along the NC-GA border, and spent 3 days and nights with two North Carolina Deputy Sheriffs, who had started out from Springer. It was the end of October, and pretty cold through the entire trip, ending in a snowstorm.
The first night with the Deputies, who were really nice guys btw, I overheard one of them complaining that his buddy didn't bring his gun with him, and his buddy replied that he thought he was going to bring his gun. They were pretty forlorn, and I approached one of them and asked to see his badge. He produced it, and said he was a firearms instructor with his department. After verifying that he was a deputy, I then produced my Glock .357, and after unloading it, handed it to him, and showed him my carry permit. He was extremely happy to have a gun in camp, and I told him that if I was incapacitated, I would expect him of his partner to take care of my son. He said he would do so, gladly. He did ask a few probing questions, designed to gauge my familiarity with firearms (I knew what he was doing..), but I've been shooting for over 20 years, and am a firearms instructor myself, so he was at ease after realizing I knew at least as much as he did. He also asked if my son was familiar with firearms, and I said that he had been shooting since age 5, owned 5 guns of his own, and then, after rechecking my Glock to ensure it was unloaded, I handed it to my son, who broke it down to it's frame, slide, barrel, and spring, in about 30 seconds, then just as quickly reassembled it.
They both were fairly impressed with my boy, and let him know that they would be happy to have him watch their back, which made his day.
So, the moral of the story is to do whatever you feel is right to protect yourself, and your family, no matter what other people tell you. They are free to make their own choices, and take the chance that all the people they meet will be harmless, and all the wildlife will be of the Disney variety. I choose to plan for the worst, and hope for the best. I'm not looking for trouble, and hope it never finds me, but if it does, and I have exhausted all other non-violent methods, then I will still have options.
The other moral is to keep your decision to go armed to yourself. It's comon courtesy to not upset or alarm those who don't understand firearms, and share the woods with you. It's also not a good idea to alert a possible predator (of the two legged variety) that you are armed, as that can negate one of the advantages of carrying a gun, which is suprising your attacker.
Glock? What's a Glock?
Oh,I know. Its the one with the neat safety, right?
Click here:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0411061foot1.html
And that was a highly trained professional!
Glock? What's a Glock?
Oh,I know. Its the one with the neat safety, right?
Click here:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0411061foot1.html
And that was a highly trained professional!
Highly trained professional....my ass.
That guy violated the main rule of firearms handling: Treat every gun as if it's loaded.
The Glock did exactly what it was supossed to do when loaded, and the trigger was depressed. It fired.
The truth is this: Most police officers are woefully undertrained with firearms, and typically fire less rounds in a year than the average gun enthusiast fires in a month. There are exceptions at some departments, and there are individual cops who choose to educate themselves on their own time, but the average cop who comes out to shoot in competition has a long way to go to catch up with the average IDPA competitor.
As for the Glock, it does have a fantastic safety system, consisting of three seperate safeties that must be deactivated, and will not fire unless the trigger saftey is fully depressed, releasing the internal safety mechanism which keeps the striker at "half cock". Unless you fully depress the trigger, it's impossible for the Glock to fire, as the firing pin is not only locked in place, but has to be retracted from half cock fully rearward before it can fire.
It's the most popular law enforcement gun in the country, due to it's safety, and reliability.
For an explaination of how a Glock safe action system works, try here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLOCK
Frolicking Dinosaurs
04-15-2006, 23:43
The male dino carries a Glock 9mm with hydroshock ammo. I carry a very loud and shrill whistle. If a bear wouldn't leave us alone and the whistle didn't work, the gun would protect us. The gun would also come in handy should any two-legged varmints try to harm us. So far, even the whistle has never been needed to frighten off a bear - they have turned and run on seeing us.
tech30528
04-29-2006, 15:24
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/tech30528/11080009.jpg
Having seen the rig JLB discusses here, I put one together my self. Mine contains a model 33 small frame .357 with the clip extension. The trigger gaurd holster works very well, I load my 9 round clip with hollow points and leave the chamber empty. The whole rig comes in at just under two pounds. Plus the 33 is small enough to fit in the overhead pouch in my Hennessee Hammock.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/tech30528/11080009.jpg
Having seen the rig JLB discusses here, I put one together my self. Mine contains a model 33 small frame .357 with the clip extension. The trigger gaurd holster works very well, I load my 9 round clip with hollow points and leave the chamber empty. The whole rig comes in at just under two pounds. Plus the 33 is small enough to fit in the overhead pouch in my Hennessee Hammock.
Does it filter water too?
tech30528
04-29-2006, 18:05
No, the picture is to show the small size and ease of carrying such a weapon. While I might drop my pack for a short trip down a side trail for water, I won't leave the gun bag. I don't know about other states, but the Georgia permit to carry conceiled is valid in NC, according to our local police department. Be sure to carry your permit and photo ID, also fits nicely in front pocket of same bag.
The male dino carries a Glock 9mm with hydroshock ammo. I carry a very loud and shrill whistle. If a bear wouldn't leave us alone and the whistle didn't work, the gun would protect us. The gun would also come in handy should any two-legged varmints try to harm us. So far, even the whistle has never been needed to frighten off a bear - they have turned and run on seeing us.
If I saw a pair of Frolicking Dinosaurs on the AT or anywhere else, I would turn and run too!
Frolicking Dinosaurs
04-30-2006, 07:28
If I saw a pair of Frolicking Dinosaurs on the AT or anywhere else, I would turn and run too! Frolicking dinosaurs (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=15560) are friendly, slow-moving creatures - not scary at all.
Hey, you are friendly looking creatures....not quite what I had imagined... you know those leathery reptiles with sharp teeth. Can't imagine why a bear would be scared of you guys! haha
Happy trails!
sirbingo
06-19-2006, 10:18
When I go hiking I make sure to bring "Law" & "Order"
...thats the name of my left and right fists!!!
When I go hiking I make sure to bring "Law" & "Order"
...thats the name of my left and right fists!!!
Some people bring along their insurance agent, from the company of Smith & Wesson.
Ya' know, guys, there was a time when I wouldn't have been very positive in my response to the posts in this thread, even as a former Marine with a couple of years on the trigger end of a reeeeel nice weapon...the Browning M2 air cooled belt fed gas operated 50 cal. heavy machine gun(aerial mount version) but that time has passed. I certainly hope no situation ever arises when I would wish to have Ma Deuce back in my arms, but if such situation ever did arise I hope one of you pistol packers are around!That is if I can't get to mine!
Eastern Black Bears have undergone a drastic personality change, especially around the trail(read smorgasbord)! They are no longer the timid docile retiring bears of even 20 years ago. They ain't scared of us no more! We represent a ready food source, and if they are hungry enough they still run, but it's AT us, not away from us!
Remember the guy that was killed by the bear down by blood mountain a couple of years ago? Van Mason, a good friend. Hell, I took his sister to her Senior prom! Well, that is your modern day eastern black bear attitude. A Glock in hand and Van might still be in the woods....alive!
And we won't even get into the two legged threats that seem to be more abundant than ever!.
No, it ain't like it used to be, so being somewhat rational and desiring to hike many more miles before I'm done I no longer feel comfortable leaving it to a roll of the dice, I like to keep my dice loaded and handy nowadays.
Mountain Man
06-19-2006, 17:33
Tell us about the Guy that got killed down by Blood Mt. by a bear a couple of years ago. I missed that some how? I saw a bear while hiking the Freeman trail around Blood Mt. and I know of a few situations of some aggressive bears around there in the past but never heard of anybody getting killed. I'm not disputing your word about it, just like hear about it.
Well, Winton Porter discovered his camp when he hadn't reported in and was overdue, but chose not to look for him but went back home and called either the sherrif or DNR or some other agency and told them where the camp was and they went in and looked around a bit and found Van at the base of a small tree he had climbed in an attempt to escape (His normal M.O. when threatened by a critter) but this time he fell from the tree and broke his neck. Before you tell me that bears are better climbers than humans, I know that. Van tried for trees that a bear wouldn't climb because he would know it would not support him. This time Van slipped, reinforcing the bear's fears of injury, and became lunch, or dinner.
There were threads here discussing the incident and you could probably search the archives and get more details. Van was a loner who loved the woods, but he spent most of his adult life fighting one kind of deamon or another. It seemed that the only time he was ever at peace was when he was out on a trail somewhere or another. He was a good guy and a good friend, and I miss him.
Amigi'sLastStand
06-22-2006, 13:39
All I know is I'd like to see someone stop a black bear with a 10 mm. Dreams are nice....
Amigi'sLastStand
06-22-2006, 18:17
Been thinking about this thread all day, since it popped up on the new posts.
As many of you know from other posts, I'm a gun-totting dude, but dont hike with one. I wonder if anyone who does can give any CRITICAL, UNBIASED evidence as to why one should be carried. Not some irrational rantings by lunatics, or the just in case crowd. That argument is baseless and pointless, do you carry a defibrillator? That is a better "just in case" item to have, as statistics point that out ( far more heartattacks, drownings, etc than crime. )
So please give a logical answer as to why you feel you need to carry.
TIDE-HSV
06-23-2006, 18:07
which seem to show that one is better off with bear spray than a firearm - better survival rate. And I'll try to dig them up. Problem is, they all deal with Grizzlies. There hasn't been a reason in the past to have such studies with blacks. It's obvious things have changed with them. My wife and I are going into the Wind River Range in August, where, in a number of trips, we've had problems only once - and that with a black bear. Although we'll be in the eastern part, and the grizzlies have only been moving into the part west of the CD, where habitat is more friendly, I intend for each of us to take a can of bear spray with us. I don't think there are any comparison studies involving guns vs. spray with bipedal predators...:-?
Mountain Man
06-23-2006, 19:21
Well, Winton Porter discovered his camp when he hadn't reported in and was overdue, but chose not to look for him but went back home and called either the sherrif or DNR or some other agency and told them where the camp was and they went in and looked around a bit and found Van at the base of a small tree he had climbed in an attempt to escape (His normal M.O. when threatened by a critter) but this time he fell from the tree and broke his neck. Before you tell me that bears are better climbers than humans, I know that. Van tried for trees that a bear wouldn't climb because he would know it would not support him. This time Van slipped, reinforcing the bear's fears of injury, and became lunch, or dinner.
There were threads here discussing the incident and you could probably search the archives and get more details. Van was a loner who loved the woods, but he spent most of his adult life fighting one kind of deamon or another. It seemed that the only time he was ever at peace was when he was out on a trail somewhere or another. He was a good guy and a good friend, and I miss him.
OK, yeah Winton told me the story about the campsite and them finding him around the time it happened but I just didn't here the rest of the story. Thanks for sharing and I'm sorry to here about your loss of a good friend. I stay in the woods probably more than 80% of my time and I know my family worry some (not as much nowdays) but I just tell them when it comes my time thats where I'd rather be. Although I own guns and cut my teeth on them as a baby so to speak I don't carry one while hiking. I'll have to admit theres been a few times I thought I might need one for a second or two but it always turned out I didn't need one. I'm not crazy enough to think that there is no chance at all that I won't ever need one in the backcountry b/c nobody knows that fo sure but the chances are real slim. I've always liked taking chances in everything I do. Even though it's a small chance it makes things a little more interesting.
I want to be respectful about what I say here for two reasons. One, because someone lost their life - and it was a friend of member here at Whiteblaze. And two, because evidently I don't know all the facts.
I remember when the hiker's body was found. I recall the news story. Nowhere - to the best of my knowledge - did anyone say anything about a bear attack. Georgia DNR did not - to the best of my knowledge - make any announcement about a bear attack in the wake of this hikers death. From Hacksaw's description, it sounds like the cause of death was a fall from a tree.
Hacksaw, do you know of any public info about this tragic incident being described as a bear attack? Thanks - and I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your friend.
That's a great choice. My first year I carried a Smith 386 SC Scandium framed .357 magnum with the heaviest semi-wadcutters I could find, for penetration. It was nice and light, but the Scandium material was not very weather resistant, and began to corrode after the first week.
Last time out I switched to a Glock 32 in .357 Sig. I liked the weight, and the weather resistance was great, as expected. No rust at all, and the ability to mount a Surefire light was a big plus. I rigged a kydex holster that fully covered the trigger guard, and fitted it into a fanny pack. The holster was connected by a small C-clamp, by drilling a hole in the kydex, and attaching it to a ring on the inner pouch of the fanny pack. Adding some extra parachute cord to the pack's zipper, and I had an extremely safe carry method, that was very quick into action, even while wearing a full pack. The fanny pack merely rode on top of my hip strap, and never came off of me, even when I dropped my pack. The drawbacks were the lack of heavier bullets in the .357 Sig caliber, so penetration on a thick skinned animal would not be ideal, but it's a very effective round on perps, and thus a good compromise.
I own a Colt Delta Elite 10mm, but it's far too heavy to consider. The 10mm is the best choice for hikers who need a caliber that's effective on people and black bear. It's the equivalent of a lighter .41 magnum load, and plenty of bears have been taken with the .41 over the years. Carrying a .41 or .44 mag revolver would be quite a burden.
A Glock 29 would be my second choice, over a full sized 20, for the extra barrel length, and 5 extra rounds.
Always carry an extra mag, not for extra ammo, but in case your primary mag fails.
Btw, I have put in a fair share of miles over the past two seasons, and I never announced I was carrying, nor did anyone notice, as I did not want to put those who are irrationally gun-phobic in a tizzy.
That changed my last trip out, when I was hiking with my 10 year old son along the NC-GA border, and spent 3 days and nights with two North Carolina Deputy Sheriffs, who had started out from Springer. It was the end of October, and pretty cold through the entire trip, ending in a snowstorm.
The first night with the Deputies, who were really nice guys btw, I overheard one of them complaining that his buddy didn't bring his gun with him, and his buddy replied that he thought he was going to bring his gun. They were pretty forlorn, and I approached one of them and asked to see his badge. He produced it, and said he was a firearms instructor with his department. After verifying that he was a deputy, I then produced my Glock .357, and after unloading it, handed it to him, and showed him my carry permit. He was extremely happy to have a gun in camp, and I told him that if I was incapacitated, I would expect him of his partner to take care of my son. He said he would do so, gladly. He did ask a few probing questions, designed to gauge my familiarity with firearms (I knew what he was doing..), but I've been shooting for over 20 years, and am a firearms instructor myself, so he was at ease after realizing I knew at least as much as he did. He also asked if my son was familiar with firearms, and I said that he had been shooting since age 5, owned 5 guns of his own, and then, after rechecking my Glock to ensure it was unloaded, I handed it to my son, who broke it down to it's frame, slide, barrel, and spring, in about 30 seconds, then just as quickly reassembled it.
They both were fairly impressed with my boy, and let him know that they would be happy to have him watch their back, which made his day.
So, the moral of the story is to do whatever you feel is right to protect yourself, and your family, no matter what other people tell you. They are free to make their own choices, and take the chance that all the people they meet will be harmless, and all the wildlife will be of the Disney variety. I choose to plan for the worst, and hope for the best. I'm not looking for trouble, and hope it never finds me, but if it does, and I have exhausted all other non-violent methods, then I will still have options.
The other moral is to keep your decision to go armed to yourself. It's comon courtesy to not upset or alarm those who don't understand firearms, and share the woods with you. It's also not a good idea to alert a possible predator (of the two legged variety) that you are armed, as that can negate one of the advantages of carrying a gun, which is suprising your attacker.
I admit I am new to these forums, but not new, by any means, to guns.
I cannot, for the life of me (pun intended), imagine why anyone would carry anything smaller than a .44 Mag. My choice is an S&W Model 329 PD, 4" barrel, Scandium. Lightweight (about a pound pre-ammo) and dependable. 2 legged critters and 4 legged critters have one thing in common: they both die from this load, properly placed. 10MM and even 9MM, and .45ACP (of which I own several) are great people stoppers (particularly the .45), but are not designed to penetrate properly for bears or boars. I have hunted both with .44 and .41 Mags and would not begin to consider anything less to be appropriate. I don't mean to sound pedantic, but I do have experience and opinions on this topic. Thank you.
Ramble~On
07-28-2006, 04:27
Hello tha and welcome..I saw that was your first post and that you are from the bay area..
I agree with you on the 44 but I do not agree with you on the 45 lacking against boar. I have never had a problem. I've always been partial to the 45.
It's funny that you are partial to 44 and from the Menlo Park....when I saw that I thought of those Dirty Harry Movies...
If Taurus comes out with a Millennium Pro in 44 that weighs 23.5 ounces....I'll be there. Until then, out here in the east and on the trail the only four legged animal of concern isn't thick skinned enough for a 45.
:eek: Uh Oh !....I hear buzzing.....:-? almost as if I'd stirred up a hornets nest.
Ramble~On
07-28-2006, 04:42
[quote=hacksaw]Ya' know, guys, there was a time when I wouldn't have been very positive in my response to the posts in this thread, even as a former Marine with a couple of years on the trigger end of a reeeeel nice weapon...the Browning M2 air cooled belt fed gas operated 50 cal. heavy machine gun(aerial mount version) but that time has passed.
0331 Semper Fi
To the rest of your post Yes...perhaps and that is why I live with the saying...."Better to have and not need than to need and not have"
Hello tha and welcome..I saw that was your first post and that you are from the bay area..
I agree with you on the 44 but I do not agree with you on the 45 lacking against boar. I have never had a problem. I've always been partial to the 45.
It's funny that you are partial to 44 and from the Menlo Park....when I saw that I thought of those Dirty Harry Movies...
If Taurus comes out with a Millennium Pro in 44 that weighs 23.5 ounces....I'll be there. Until then, out here in the east and on the trail the only four legged animal of concern isn't thick skinned enough for a 45.
:eek: Uh Oh !....I hear buzzing.....:-? almost as if I'd stirred up a hornets nest.
No hornets nest cranking up around here. Nothing wrong with a good honest clean discussion. I value other people's informed opinions and experiences. To each his own. Heck, remember the battle over the 9 vs the ACP? My carry and house gun is a 45. I love it. Maybe it was my bullet placement, but when I hit a pig in the head up near Boonville (about 150 miles north from here) the slugs literally bounced off. That was a 45. It may have been a glancing hit though. Best people stopper around for a hand gun for my money. In my 44 I carry the first chamber with a shot shell and then 5 300 grain solid points. If you are interested in the Taurus, you might just check out the Smith, if only for comparative purposes.
Should I change my posting handle to "Make my Day"?:confused:
tha
P.S. Thanks for the kind welcome.
Been thinking about this thread all day, since it popped up on the new posts.
As many of you know from other posts, I'm a gun-totting dude, but dont hike with one. I wonder if anyone who does can give any CRITICAL, UNBIASED evidence as to why one should be carried. Not some irrational rantings by lunatics, or the just in case crowd. That argument is baseless and pointless, do you carry a defibrillator? That is a better "just in case" item to have, as statistics point that out ( far more heartattacks, drownings, etc than crime. )
So please give a logical answer as to why you feel you need to carry.
I can't find a logical answer as to why someone would carry a gun on the trail, unless they were hunting. I fully believe that it is better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6, but I don't see where a gun would be effective on the trail.
If you are worried about bears, a spray will be more effective than a gun. Not even a 45 is going to slow an angry bear down fast enough, unless you are at a safe distance from the bear (and then you don't need protection). A bullet won't give an immediate shock, like the spray will. A bear or crazed human may not even notice that he's been hit for a few seconds. In a few seconds, you could be dead. A spray gives an immediate, burning sensation to the eyes and nose. Much more effective at close-in self defense.
If you are worried about humans - SING. (please, reference Miss Congeniality).
If you are worried about humans with guns, a good web cam, big rocks, and fast feet will serve you better, than a shooting match in the woods. You might get him, but he might get you too.
At home in your own house? Leave the door unlocked, and wear a 45 and a smile. :D
Dave568 (http://member.php?u=7944) asked for advice about self-defense against wildlife, not people.
I don't think its too much to include people in with wildlife. They're an equivalent threat.
I think its a personal choice on what gives you comfort, with your discretion on how the balance of mental peace and weight works for you. If you want to carry mace, I don't see how that would be a problem for anybody. In fact, if I were a girl, I probably would carry it.
I carry a respectable pocket knife, which is not much protection I know, but usuable in an emergency situation. Its easy and accessible for me to carry and is functional as a tool.
You're over 60 times more likely to be attacked by someones dog on the trail, rather than a bear. A Glock 26 (9mm) or Glock 27 (.40) is all you need. They are the lightest of the GLOCKS at around 25 oz including full clip. Get the pre-fragmented or hollow-point ammo. Don't worry about permits because its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
Ramble~On
07-29-2006, 00:57
Well on that note....
And as this isn't a "dog thread" but a "self Defense" thread I feel the only thing I would ever need "defense" from on the AT is in fact a dog or dogs.
It has been my long time opinion that a lot of people, not all people but a good many who hike with their dogs look at their dog as a form of protection and without the dog as a protector the dog owner would not be alone in the woods. When confronted by a teeth barring, growling dog I do not get a very welcome feeling...especially so when approaching a shelter after a long day of hiking....this has happened more than once...and the dog wasn't immediately stopped from doing it...my first impression "Wonderful, How inviting"...the thought of spending a night in a shelter with some inconsiderate SOB with their loose dog growling at me, begging for food, stepping over my gear....I'm not going to hike on and more than likely there will be at least a verbal confrontation with the owner. ...this has happened before....and knowing that people are in fact intimidated by the dog seems to be the point for some owners.
If someone is inconsiderate enough to have their dog inside the shelter, loose, and is inconsiderate enough to allow the dog to bark at people as they approach the shelter for a full minute before telling the dog to stop, inconsiderate enough to expect other hikers to stop in their tracks until they are able to catch up to their unleashed dog and stop it from growling....more than likely if this type person is "asked" to remove the dog from the shelter, leash it or control it the result will be confrontation. I have seen this on the Appalachian Trail many times. I have seen friends attacked by dogs at shelters, bitten. I have approached shelters and have had dogs run out at me, I have had dogs at shelters stand and bark at me and their owners who were within 2 feet of the dogs do nothing. I have been bitten by dogs....most of the stitches I have had during my lifetime have been the result of dog bites. Still, I do not have a phobia of dogs.
I have had wonderful experiences with dogs, I have friends who hike with their dogs...
My family has always had dogs, we have two at present, neither hike...I love dogs...
What is at issue is that when you are on the trail and you are appraoched by a big dog you do not know if it is friendly or not, other dogs are obviously threatening....due to past experiences I don't cringe at the sight of a loose, barking, growling dog, I get angry. I am 100% totally willing to share the trail with anyone but I draw the line on unleashed, uncontrolled, poorly behaved dogs...which in my opinion is a direct result of poor ownership, handling and training as well as very inconsiderate to myself and anyone else trying to peacefully enjoy some time in the woods.
This thread is about "self defense" and not about dogs but the only thing I am ever likely to need to defend myself against is dogs.
There are clear, concise laws concerning dogs in some areas just as there are similar laws in place concerning firearms....both are broken on a regular basis but it is obvious who has the dog. It is a shame that either dog or firearm should be "needed" as a form of defense on the trail or anywhere else. There have been several threads concerning firearms on the AT and the subject is almost always met with as much debate as dogs....
In previous gun threads I have stated that I do not carry while hiking.
:-? I have very strong feelings towards being confronted by large dogs that in my opinion are threatening to my personal safety....just as I would react if a bear approached me.....growling, showing it's teeth....I react the same to dogs....it is very unlikely that I will ever be approached by a menacing bear..... some dogs on the other hand, in my opinion present an actual threat to my safety which would become a "self defense" concern.
I do not take kindly to hiking on a hiking trail and being confronted by a dog who's first instinct is to growl, bark or take a stance as if I continue to walk towards it it is going to attack me..... it's my opinion that laid back, friendly people have laid back, freindly dogs. A freindly dog on the trail wags its tail and looks all cute and happy....does that mean that I want it appraoching me, in the shelter, water source, begging...not really. How am I suppossed to know the friendly dogs from the vicious dogs when they are unleashed and running towrds me ? People in other threads have in not so many words said they refuse to leash their dogs and do not care about local, state or other laws concerning leashing. I love to hike and I am totally willing to share the trail...it isn't illegal everywhere to have dogs....in some places it is.
I prefer to hike alone.....with others but seperated by a space cushion or
flat out solo on a trip.... I'd feel really silly to need and not have so I guess that answers that question. Wait, what question ? :D
Ramble~On
07-29-2006, 00:58
BUUUUUUUUUuuuuuZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz.:eek:
I always think of people that have menacing dogs as the same ones that carry guns on the trail.
Amigi'sLastStand
07-30-2006, 12:59
I always have wanted to hear the paranoid stories and fanasties ... the thoughts you envision in your head about how a confrontation on the trail will go down....
Potential murder approaches....from fifty feet away he annouces his intentions to harm you....he walks toward you....you carefullu reach into your fanny pack and remove your handgun....with a quick snap of the wrist, you hit the bad guy with the scruffy beard, crazy eyes, and black hat square in the chest with one shot.....he dies immediately.....just like on TV....where you get your pedantic fanatasies from.....
I'm sure he wont approach you, gain your tacit trust, smile and laugh with you, put you at ease, and then stab you between your ribs when your back is turned. But, of course, you have your gun, and your a tough guy because of that gun, and the knife will just sting a little, just like on TV, where the badass shrugs it off, turns and kills the bad guy with one quick karate chop to the Adam's apple.
Ask yourself, I am a coward? Is that why I need a gun? I'm afraid of the world, and this gun here is gonna make it all better, just like when grandma use to kiss my booboos. Sing me a lullaby mommy.
Some of ya'll just need to stay home and keep watching your fanatasies on the pollution tube. Or better yet, improve yourself and take a self defense course.
Is this post harsh? F---ing A. A gun is not a tool, it is a weapon. Dont delude yourself with that BS. But if it is a tool, its a tool with one purpose, and purpose only 1 in 10 can ever carry out. 9 of 10 freeze up. The Army learned that in the early years of Vietnam. But I'm sure your in the 10%:rolleyes....
And this BS "Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6." What line follows after that? "Go ahead, make my day"? Please. Tough guy bull--- for the weak. It does make a great bumper sticker, though.
Your gun belongs with you in 7-11, not on the trail.
Ramble~On
07-30-2006, 21:43
I always think of people that have menacing dogs as the same ones that carry guns on the trail.
Yeah, Me too. Except I'd have to say that anyone that brings a dog to a gun fight is in big trouble.
Ramble~On
07-30-2006, 21:46
I always have wanted to hear the paranoid stories and fanasties ... the thoughts you envision in your head about how a confrontation on the trail will go down....
Potential murder approaches....from fifty feet away he annouces his intentions to harm you....he walks toward you....you carefullu reach into your fanny pack and remove your handgun....with a quick snap of the wrist, you hit the bad guy with the scruffy beard, crazy eyes, and black hat square in the chest with one shot.....he dies immediately.....just like on TV....where you get your pedantic fanatasies from.....
I'm sure he wont approach you, gain your tacit trust, smile and laugh with you, put you at ease, and then stab you between your ribs when your back is turned. But, of course, you have your gun, and your a tough guy because of that gun, and the knife will just sting a little, just like on TV, where the badass shrugs it off, turns and kills the bad guy with one quick karate chop to the Adam's apple.
Ask yourself, I am a coward? Is that why I need a gun? I'm afraid of the world, and this gun here is gonna make it all better, just like when grandma use to kiss my booboos. Sing me a lullaby mommy.
Some of ya'll just need to stay home and keep watching your fanatasies on the pollution tube. Or better yet, improve yourself and take a self defense course.
Is this post harsh? F---ing A. A gun is not a tool, it is a weapon. Dont delude yourself with that BS. But if it is a tool, its a tool with one purpose, and purpose only 1 in 10 can ever carry out. 9 of 10 freeze up. The Army learned that in the early years of Vietnam. But I'm sure your in the 10%:rolleyes....
And this BS "Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6." What line follows after that? "Go ahead, make my day"? Please. Tough guy bull--- for the weak. It does make a great bumper sticker, though.
Your gun belongs with you in 7-11, not on the trail.
Hmm you could remove the word gun and add in the word dog and it would be quite fitting too. It sounds from your post that you have a good deal of anger. Why ?
Ramble~On
07-30-2006, 22:07
So are guns on the trail and those that choose to carry them a cause of serious issue ?
In your day to day life how many people do you encounter that have guns on their person and you do not know about it ?
Have you noticed signs hanging in bank windows and store windows stating
"No Concealed Weapons"...these signs started showing up a few years ago....why ?
Guns are a subject that seem to draw as much debate as dogs, cell phones, hammocks or tents...there is a solid line that divides the issue and you're pretty much on one side or the other.
So, The right to own and bear arms.....well, it's a right and a choice.
If you are opposed to abortion....good for you... don't go out and get one.
If you are against the lottery....don't buy a ticket.....
Hate fur....don't wear it, Reformed drunk....stay out of the bar.
Don't like guns...good for you...stay away from them.
HYOH.....
I agree, guns are tools....as with most tools they must be treated with respect and a few simple rules concerning their safe operation and handling have to be followed at all times.
:-? Hmmm...somehow this sounds very similar to....................dogs
........ Or better yet, improve yourself and take a self defense course.............
Takes too long to fight off a dog or dogs and will probably ruin expensive hiking gear, even if I could beat them off and run away it just takes up too much time. A gun is much quicker and cleaner and I can get back to enjoying the great outdoors sooner. It MAKES MY DAY.
Creepy Uncle
07-30-2006, 22:23
Yeah, Me too. Except I'd have to say that anyone that brings a dog to a gun fight is in big trouble.
what about popcorn to a dog fight?
Takes too long to fight off a dog or dogs and will probably ruin expensive hiking gear, even if I could beat them off and run away it just takes up too much time. A gun is much quicker and cleaner and I can get back to enjoying the great outdoors sooner. It MAKES MY DAY.
Please describe your numerous fights with dogs, and include details about the times you killed dogs with your gun. We are just trying to learn here. Nice touch to encourage people to ignore gun laws.:rolleyes: You will never get your point across using these tactics. Ridge, I'm willing to wager that you have NEVER shot a dog on a hiking trail. If you fail to gain empathy from those you are trying to communicate with, you might as well just pound the keyboard and submit whatever comes up. If you don't care about empathy, then you are just another troll.
Please describe your numerous fights with dogs, and include details about the times you killed dogs with your gun. We are just trying to learn here. Nice touch to encourage people to ignore gun laws.:rolleyes: You will never get your point across using these tactics. Ridge, I'm willing to wager that you have NEVER shot a dog on a hiking trail. If you fail to gain empathy from those you are trying to communicate with, you might as well just pound the keyboard and submit whatever comes up. If you don't care about empathy, then you are just another troll.
The same people that gives me the right to carry a gun are the same ones that let you carry a dog unleashed on the trail. The difference is the gun is 100% controlled, you just need to hope the gun toter controls his gun better than the majority of dog-hikers do their dog.
The same people that gives me the right to carry a gun are the same ones that let you carry a dog unleashed on the trail. The difference is the gun is 100% controlled, you just need to hope the gun toter controls his gun better than the majority of dog-hikers do their dog.Answer my questions instead of predictably tossing me in with your object of derision. Carry if you like. I encourage it if you feel the need. My reply to your post does not question the right to carry a gun. My reply to your post was an attempt to help you get your point across in a constructive manner. So much for that. Troll on Mr. Troll.
Alligator
07-30-2006, 23:03
Just another troll
everywhere he goes
people know the part
he's playing
Lying in advance
all for happy chance
every night some board
betraying
There will come a day
truth will pass away
then what will they say
about him
When the end comes I know
they'll say just another troll
as life goes on
without him
'Cause he aint got nobody
nobody nobody cares for him
he's so sad and lonely
sad and lonely sad and lonely
Won't some sweet doggie
come and take a chance with him
cause he aint so bad
you just need to hope the gun toter controls his gun better than the majority of dog-hikers do their dog. Now you are gonna tell me what I need to hope for?:rolleyes: I've had no problems in my life and hopefully never will. I am comfortable with my own defence plan. Considering the "Sky is falling" nature of your posts I imagine you are too. Please answer my other questions or engage someone else in debate.
Alachua County Jail Bird.
Alachua County Jail Bird. Congratulations.
....... Please answer my other questions or engage someone else in debate.
You butted into this "debate". However, even when I shoot a dog whom I fear is about to attack me, I'll tell no one and leave the scene (only not in a rush) just like the dog-hikers do after they pull their dog off another hiker and saying "My dog has never done anything like this before, I SWEAR". And if its any comfort, if and when the dog owner shows up and proceeds to attack me, I'll do everything legally in my power to protect myself. I PROMISE!!!
You butted into this "debate". I posted to this thread, yes. Just like you did. I see you finally answered one of my questions. Thanks for clearing that up. Nice to know what you will do in the future.
Alachua County Jail Bird So when you say "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6", you know what you are talking about? Please do tell.:D
Ramble~On
07-30-2006, 23:41
:eek: WOW...Hornets.
Guns, dogs and videotape.
Creepy are you or would you in any way shape or form be talking about the popcorn that comes in mason jars...or the kind that flies off the shelves at the trailer park general store on coon dog washing night ?
MY DOGS ARE BIGGER AND MEeeeeener and more most fiesty than yours...
My gun is ah cord strapped to my wrist just a waiting.......
BANG BANG BANG DE DEE DE DEE BANG BANG BANG..
Heck fire TARNATION.....I ain't gonna carry the weight of my 12 gauge on up them hills...I'll strap it to my pitbull 'stead. YES SIR REEEEeeee BOyChild
Hikin' t'is all bout being safe in dem woods, hills and Glens...
Scary Rabbits with HUGE TEETH....lirkin 'hind every tree and rock...just a waiting to git at my gorp stockpile....Sure nough' if'n i had me a wad of "Venture Food Peanut Butter bar...\I'd git myself might scolded fast by them bear and rabbits......why shoot gosh gimminy heck darn...if I didn't have my trusty 45 to blast em'......if'n I twas to be without the devils right hand.....I sure nough would be forced to throw popcorn at whar ever evil critter twas coming my way......
Well that there reminds me of a song....
goes something like this.....guess'n yonse 'll havetah imagine banjo pickin to go along with it.
"Popcorn Popcorn sticks like glue
Sticks to mean doggies and their owners too...
Burns through a village in a single flash...
Nothing left but bones an ash....
Popcorn sticks to kids"
And on a More serious note.
I'll happily stand by my choice to shoot a dog in the head and ask questions later.....course...eatting it would be a different story.
There......How do you like me now ?
The situation dictates.......Big, scary, mean dog....foaming at the mouth....big thick leather collar with 3 inch metal spikes........growling....barking.......leash....n ope....no leash...owner....not within sight.... BANG....which reminds me of another song..
"Happy Trailssssssss to you.....until we meet again...."
:banana BZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
PS.....Creepy I am putting my pack in the truck and heading out now....
11:34pm......
Here Maggie, Maggie Maggie Doodle Doodle Doo
Why carry a gun in the woods....
Well, When i have a bad trip I like to feel safe and simply blasting away at everything that moves make me feel better.....it's all about ME!!!!
If I'm happy....and my dog is Happy...Well, Reckon a few pieces of hot metal zinging round at high velocity causes some pretty neato trails...
"Guns, they're not just for breakfast anymore."
Well, it's just bout midnight...time for me to open the coffin and go out there and suck some blood out of somebody.
YEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeee HAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaWWWWWwwwwww
Ramble~On
07-30-2006, 23:53
"FREEDOM OF SPEECH"
"THE RIGHT TO OWN AND BEAR ARMS"
GOD BLESS AMERICA !!!!!!!
Now dag nammit why is LSD still illegal...gosh gee shuckwillykers...
Hold it boys....found my moonshine......ahhhhhhh HAhhhhhhhhhh
ah dang darn moonshine tain't legal none neither.
Ah well...never was much fer the legalities in life no way
Hey.....You smell that ? I sniff'n me some popcorn comin' from.....
PONDO.....Yes sir...i smell that Creepy.......
Maggie MAggie Dooddle DOOOOOOooooooooooo
YESSSSsssssssssss SIRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Where my hiking sandals be ? :sun
PS.....Creepy I am putting my pack in the truck and heading out now....
11:34pm......
Here Maggie, Maggie Maggie Doodle Doodle Doo
Why carry a gun in the woods....
Well, When i have a bad trip I like to feel safe and simply blasting away at everything that moves make me feel better.....it's all about ME!!!!
If I'm happy....and my dog is Happy...Well, Reckon a few pieces of hot metal zinging round at high velocity causes some pretty neato trails...
"Guns, they're not just for breakfast anymore."
Well, it's just bout midnight...time for me to open the coffin and go out there and suck some blood out of somebody.
YEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeee HAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaWWWWWwwwwwwHave a good time!:D
Skidsteer
07-31-2006, 19:03
... will probably ruin expensive hiking gear, even if I could beat them off and run away it just takes up too much time.
Stop beatin' off dogs and they won't pester you so much, Ridge.