Hypothermia - my experiences

[Emerson Bigills]

In another thread there was some short discussion of hypthermia and I thought it might be helplful to some if I shared a couple "near misses" I have had. Let me preface this with the fact that both of these showed glaring error judgments on my part, but I survived. Also both occurred during my AT thru hike. At the time of the first instance, I had already hiked over 600 miles and in the second instance over 1600. Prior to starting my thru hike, I had done over 800 miles of backpacking in the southeast. So, I thought I knew what I was doing.

In Central VA, the weather warmed up in mid April and I swapped out my rain suit for a poncho. Within two days, I found myself on a 3800 ft ridge in a driving, windy rainstorm, with temps that had dropped into the mid-40's. Ponchos usually only cover the tops of your forearms so any long sleeve top must be pulled up or it will get wet and soaked. I hiked in the cold rain for about 3 hours. I had tentatively planned to get a shuttle at VA 623 to a nearby hostel for the night. I could feel my body getting very cold and losing all dexterity in my fingers. I knew if I stopped, I would get cold very quickly, so I kept moving as fast as I could to keep my body temp as high as possible. I did have all my gear, so stopping to pitch a tent and get in my bag was an option, even though the terrain did not afford me any open spots. I recall waiting on the shuttle by pacing around on the edge of the road and shivering. When I got in the pickup truck, I begged the driver to turn the heat up to "high".

Bad move to go for the poncho that early. Within two days, I bought a Frog Togs set at Trents Grocery. I ended up sending my rain pants home within a month, but kept the rain jacket and poncho the rest of the way. Ponchos are for warm weather.

My second bout with Hypothermia occurred outside Bennington, VT in early June. I was hiking with another guy and it rained constantly for about 20 hours going into town and our first night staying there. We decided to slack pack a 21 mile section north of Bennington, and end up back at the trailhead outside of town for another night in a motel. We got dropped off and the rain started again. It rained constantly all day. As we were slack packing we only had rain jackets, baseball hats, snacks, maps and trekking poles. Our usual slack pack gear. The temps never got out of the mid-40's and we stayed on a ridge around 3000 ft.

Within 45 minutes we knew it was a bad idea, but there was not a single road crossing or bail out point. There was no cell service back at the remote trailhead where we had been dropped off. We didn't have much choice. We kept moving. Both of us lost manual dexterity off and on throughout the day. My hiking partner actually urinated on himself as he walked because he knew he couldn't get his zipper down with his fingers. We spent over 7 hours out there. We never stopped, because we couldn't. We saw several AT and Long Trail thrus, who shut it down in shelters along that stretch and later told us it was the worst day of the entire hike for them. We did not have that luxury. Around the 15 mile mark we had to ford a swollen brook. It typically would have been a breeze, but with over 24 hours of constant rain, it was rocking and rolling. We went up and down the bank for about 25 minutes and finally just crossed at the AT. It was sketchy, but we made it.

By the time we got down to the trail head, I didn't have enough manual dexterity to use my phone. Once again, we shivered in the lot waiting for our ride. That night we both talked about lessons learned.

Two long stories, but a couple thoughts. Be careful out there. You may have some experience, but you can easily get yourself in a dicey situation. Be especially careful of getting cold and wet at the same time. Make sure you keep your sleeping bag dry and good to have a dry change of clothes. As I like to say, Mother Nature is indifferent about outcomes.

[Tipi Walter]

I don't know about Mother Nature being indifferent to outcomes, but She's there with us every step of the way and invites us to her party. Sometimes though what she finds comical and fun ends up killing us but that's the price we pay to sleep with her.

You have some good stories. As I often say, my rain jacket has literally kept me alive---alluding to your poncho story. It's a valuable piece of gear.

And in terrible winter weather there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING keeping you from setting up a tent and hunkering in until the worst of it passes---even pulling a zero day in the tent. Hunkering is how backpackers stay outdoors in the worst conditions and then move when conditions improve.

But the coldest I ever got on a winter trip, ironically, was when I hitched 20 miles to a town in the back of a pickup truck on the last day---Hellishly cold. On that trip I got thru 0F temps and snow and cold rains at 35F but it was the truck ride out which kicked my sac. No room for me in the cab etc.

Speaking of a frozen zipper, one time me and a friend had to cross a shallow creek by wading in our boots at 10F and my friend's bootlaces froze solid and we had to cut them apart to get his boots off later in camp.

Many times I have ended a tough winter day of Backpackaging in a cold rain when my hands were blocks of numb wood without the ability to unclip my hipbelt or unzip my gear---and standing exposed to a killer wind in first stage hypothermia. The ONLY thing that can be done is setting up the tent at all costs---I call it the 8 Second Rodeo Ride. Do it or Die.

[AllDownhillFromHere]

Within 45 minutes we knew it was a bad idea, but ...

That's a problem. I tell people all the time, "KNOW WHEN TO TURN BACK".

[D.D.Bear]

Someone (me) could learn from this thread. Thank you, gentlemen!

[Five Tango]

Thanks to Emerson Bigills for sharing your experiences with us.Cold is a killer and even the most experienced hikers are not immune.

[Feral Bill]

Having a partner can help. On a winter trip a few years ago with my son, in the teens F , we were hanging around outside the tent. I started getting shivery and probably a bit stupid. My son put me in the tent, thoroughly wrapped in my bag, with a down parka on top. He made a hot meal and I warmed up before too long. If I had been alone, it could have been another story altogether.

[Slo-go'en]

The closest I came was on a 90 degree day in NY when a thunderstorm popped up and I got soaked by an ice cold rain for 15 minutes. About the time my teeth started chattering was when the storm and lightning had move far enough away to make it safe to continue on again. Should have known to bring a real rain jacket, even in July.

[HooKooDooKu]

The GSMNP website recommends rain gear for any hike in the back country.
https://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/hikingsafety.htm

Once was camped at Icewater Spring shelter on the 4th of July. Noticed the weather was unseasonably cold, and learned the next day that LeConte Lodge had recorded an overnight low of 38F.
With rain gear, sleeping bags, and emergency shelter (in case anything kept us from getting to the campsite) meant that I was prepared and not in danger of hypothermia. But it points out that hypothermia in the south can still be a concern in the middle of summer. Something many day hikers to the area don't consider.

On the subject, again things turned out fine but I had a relative vacationing in the Rockies. Their hotel was at a low elevation and they drove up into the mountains for the day. Reached a location with snow on the ground and they got out of their car wearing shorts to check it out. The car wasn't in park and started to roll away. Fortunately jumped in the car and stopped it in time, at which point they realize just how screwed they could have been if they hadn't been able to stop the car.

[colorado_rob]

I had two close calls, one at 14K feet in Colorado in July, another on the AT near Roan Mountain in April. The first was a really close call, I was pretty severely hypothermic and basically if I had sat down I would have probably died (and boy, did I want to just sit down). It was early in my climbing career and I just didn't know what I was doing. The second was not nearly as close of a call, but still a wake up call. Both incidents were a result mostly of inadequate gear, plain and simple. Funny, both happened when the temperature was in the high 30's, but dumping wet snow or raining buckets. I've hiked and climbed extensively in way below zero temperatures (down to about -25F, blowing like heck) without any issues.

If I get motivated, I'll share details later.

[Leo L.]

In my younger years, I've got shivering cold with "frozen" hands so many times it was finally a normal state in winter. We didn't know the word Hypothermia at all.

Two years back in December I had a really close call when hypothermia hit me unexpectedly.
I was training for a 24hrs-hike challenge, and was towards the end of a 100km test hike, about 20hrs in, 4:00am.
It had started to rain and slush a few hrs before, and while my body was well protected by warm clothes, poncho and chaps, my hands grew colder by the minute. The gloves were totally soaked.
Usually, I would just hike faster to get me warm from inside, but after 20+hrs of constant hiking I was spent. I simply couldn't go any faster, but rather was on the limit of being able to hike at all.
Just 10km from my house, hiking along a local road with zero traffic, I searched shelter in a busstop hut, and tried to help myself, which I found impossible due to my "frozen" hands. Couldn't open the pack, nor any zipper, nor handle anything at all.
I was so spent that I was very tempted to take a nap in this busstop.
A single car raced by, which woke me (not sure if I really had dozed off) and shivering like hell I realized that I had to move for pure survivals sake.
I finally managed to stumble on for another 2.5hrs, and after entering the house my wife had to peel me out of my clothes and I dunked into a hot thub.
Which was another bad idea: After having hot-soaked for some time, I got out an passed out on the spot, collapsing on the floor.

[MuddyWaters]

In my younger years, I've got shivering cold with "frozen" hands so many times it was finally a normal state in winter. We didn't know the word Hypothermia at all.



Ditto
Grew up duck hunting
Cold,wet, nonfunctional fingers was way of life
Never saw it as big deal

Its not a problem
If you got options
Ie....bail, leave
Warm truck 1 hr away, etc

Even hiking ive gone to bed without dinner a few times
Just setting up shelter had me shivering uncontrollably
No way to cook , cant work lighter anyway
Good feeling to get in the goose cocoon and warm up
Even though it takes 1-2 hours sometimes

The trick is always, stop and get warm , while you are still able
Dont get in position where you cant.
And realize you are 1 mistake from dieing. Ie.get your down wet ..your go from frying pan to fire.

[Five Tango]

Thanks for sharing your experiences.I am wondering if anyone has ever used one of those emergency mylar blankets or shelters before and how it performed.I have one,weighs under 4 oz,and I have always wondered about how effective it would be when the chips are down.

[TwoSpirits]

Just about exactly a year ago I was hiking a section south from Harper's Ferry to Waynesboro. The first couple of days had been extraordinarily hot & humid, and I was completely soaked just from sweating. The 3rd or 4th day a minor front came through, and while the rain was refreshing, the temps dropped from high 80's down to the mid 60's. The fog was really neat, and it felt great -- right up until it didn't. I suddenly realized that I was getting chilled, but I wasn't able to hike with enough speed to keep myself warm. I only had a few miles to a shelter, but I really believed that once I got there I could be too chilled to warm up. I was at Sky Meadows State Park, and decided to bail off the trail then and there, thinking I could find a campsite there.*

Long story short, I ended up at the park office and called for a shuttle in order to get somewhere inside dry & warm for the night. I felt a little foolish, because it wasn't "cold"...but I knew I sure was. I was shivering like crazy, and my shuttle driver was great -- had that heat cranked up!

It doesn't take cold temps at all. Self awareness is important.

[Crossup]

I carry them(mylar blankets) for both hiking and biking and while I've not used one, I've read most of what is on this site on the subject. My take is they work as advertised in terms of wind protection and providing warmth...BUT with no way for moisture to escape you can quickly end up soaking wet inside it. So for me its a short term solution to getting warm whose main value is to give you a little bit of time to think and figure how to deal with your situation

[colorado_rob]

Thanks for sharing your experiences.I am wondering if anyone has ever used one of those emergency mylar blankets or shelters before and how it performed.I have one,weighs under 4 oz,and I have always wondered about how effective it would be when the chips are down.They do work reasonably well for a one-use warmup, but not so much as an actual shelter. And really, to get or keep warm, it's usually better to just keep going, making sure to eat calories. Calories = heat! (quite literally)

There are some slightly heavier options that are quite a bit more effective, one can actually sleep (or rest, at least) in something like this (5.5 oz, but expensive!):

https://www.redcross.org/store/survive-outdoors-longer-sol-escape-lite-breathable-bivvy/0140-1227.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwxvbdBRC0ARIsAKmec9bxGiqVa_ P-Yi-bvjIyXZQtBDMjhG__qcImmACeIOZ-UgqvCi5555UaAg_AEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CO7qhqXw-90CFRVLAQodz-MEgA

[Ashepabst]

my wife and I had a brush with the shivers hiking out of Big South Fork one morning. it started raining as we were taking down camp and didn't stop until long after we got back to our car. We both had on decent rain jackets and toboggans, but after a while it just doesn't shed so easily.

[sfdoc]

I have seen people in the early stages of hypothermia. One factor that appears is that they're "not hungry." A very important step to take is EAT. Hot, or even warm food is nice, but any food will do. The body burning the calories, especially fat calories, along with getting out of the wind, bundling up, and getting dry (if possible) will save your life.

[Leo L.]

Thanks for sharing your experiences.I am wondering if anyone has ever used one of those emergency mylar blankets or shelters before and how it performed.I have one,weighs under 4 oz,and I have always wondered about how effective it would be when the chips are down.

I always carry one or two, and used one occassionally, but with very mixed results.

First off, they age. If you carry one in your pack for several years it might break or delaminate if you are in need to use it. Replace it after some years even if its still unused.
Second, they hardly work in high wind. You can't unfold it, then can't wrap it around yourself propely, and it will tear all too easy.
Third, its a one-use only (at least the cheap ones). So if you unwrap yourself after hours to go to the bathroom, maybe you can't wrap yourself again.

I still carry one all the time, but for real emergency only.
It might help to bridge the tiny gap when things come down extremely narrow.

[Five Tango]

They do work reasonably well for a one-use warmup, but not so much as an actual shelter. And really, to get or keep warm, it's usually better to just keep going, making sure to eat calories. Calories = heat! (quite literally)

I

There are some slightly heavier options that are quite a bit more effective, one can actually sleep (or rest, at least) in something like this (5.5 oz, but expensive!):

https://www.redcross.org/store/survive-outdoors-longer-sol-escape-lite-breathable-bivvy/0140-1227.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwxvbdBRC0ARIsAKmec9bxGiqVa_ P-Yi-bvjIyXZQtBDMjhG__qcImmACeIOZ-UgqvCi5555UaAg_AEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CO7qhqXw-90CFRVLAQodz-MEgA

I have the heavier version that I use to boost my 20 down quilt in the hammock but have never used it alone.Might do a yard test some time just to see what it can do but I suspect the user would survive uncomfortably.The SOL Escape bivvy does not condensate but the survival is said to make the user wet as others have stated.

[Tipi Walter]

That's a problem. I tell people all the time, "KNOW WHEN TO TURN BACK".

I tell backpackers I see, "KNOW WHEN TO SET UP CAMP AND HUNKER IN." As often turning back is not an option.


Having a partner can help. On a winter trip a few years ago with my son, in the teens F , we were hanging around outside the tent. I started getting shivery and probably a bit stupid. My son put me in the tent, thoroughly wrapped in my bag, with a down parka on top. He made a hot meal and I warmed up before too long. If I had been alone, it could have been another story altogether.

If solo, could you have not gone inside the tent yourself and wrapped up in the bag and boiled up some hot tea??



Usually, I would just hike faster to get me warm from inside, but after 20+hrs of constant hiking I was spent.


You bring up the important point of how EXHAUSTION accents HYPOTHERMIA. I see it all the time in myself.


Ditto
Grew up duck hunting
Cold,wet, nonfunctional fingers was way of life
Never saw it as big deal

Its not a problem
If you got options
Ie....bail, leave
Warm truck 1 hr away, etc

Even hiking ive gone to bed without dinner a few times
Just setting up shelter had me shivering uncontrollably
No way to cook , cant work lighter anyway
Good feeling to get in the goose cocoon and warm up
Even though it takes 1-2 hours sometimes

The trick is always, stop and get warm , while you are still able
Dont get in position where you cant.
And realize you are 1 mistake from dieing. Ie.get your down wet ..your go from frying pan to fire.

Pretty much reflects on everything I said. Set up camp and hunker in. "The trick is to always stop and get warm" Translation: Set Up Camp. Backpackers have gear and have good options to deal with hypothermia. We carry tents and bags and sleeping pads and stoves (most of us) and extra clothing and rain gear and even some Hot Hands pouches if needed.

[carouselambra]

Was that 2008? I spent a cold 4th of July weekend in Grayson Highlands in 2008.


The GSMNP website recommends rain gear for any hike in the back country.
https://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/hikingsafety.htm

Once was camped at Icewater Spring shelter on the 4th of July. Noticed the weather was unseasonably cold, and learned the next day that LeConte Lodge had recorded an overnight low of 38F.
With rain gear, sleeping bags, and emergency shelter (in case anything kept us from getting to the campsite) meant that I was prepared and not in danger of hypothermia. But it points out that hypothermia in the south can still be a concern in the middle of summer. Something many day hikers to the area don't consider.

On the subject, again things turned out fine but I had a relative vacationing in the Rockies. Their hotel was at a low elevation and they drove up into the mountains for the day. Reached a location with snow on the ground and they got out of their car wearing shorts to check it out. The car wasn't in park and started to roll away. Fortunately jumped in the car and stopped it in time, at which point they realize just how screwed they could have been if they hadn't been able to stop the car.

[HooKooDooKu]

Was that 2008? I spent a cold 4th of July weekend in Grayson Highlands in 2008.
No, the time I experienced lows in the 30's on the 4th of July in GSMNP had to have been within the last 5 years (that's how long my middle child has been camping with me in GSMNP).
I don't think it was last year, and two years ago I would have been getting ready for a JMT thru hike. So it was likely 2015.

[Uriah]

Set up camp and hunker in. "The trick is to always stop and get warm" Translation: Set Up Camp. Backpackers have gear and have good options to deal with hypothermia. We carry tents and bags and sleeping pads and stoves (most of us) and extra clothing and rain gear and even some Hot Hands pouches if needed.

And then there are times when hypothermia nips at the heels so closely that the digits won't even operate. How to set up camp then? Heck, there have been times I could not even turn my front door's knob after winter bike rides or long hikes! Others with Raynaud's know what I'm talking about!

Some tricks I learned a long while ago:

1: Always be fit, so I could "hurry" and generate heat if I had to.
2: This meant having easily-accessible snacks (since human heat is mostly generated through the use of calories) that didn't freeze solid. No zippers, no hard-to-open pouches, no exposed digits.
3: Mittens instead of gloves, or, worst case scenario: hike with hands buried in the armpits or in the crotch. I think those of us who love cold-weather hiking/camping have all had to do this at one time or another. If it weren't for my crotch I'd have no fingers!
4: Hand-warming pouches, like skiers use. (I carry these as a back-up all winter here in high-altitude Utah, despite hating creating waste.)
5: Hot drinks. I actually carry a Thermos in winter. I realize this is impractical during thru-hikes, but it is entirely sensible during the cold, dark months. I just heat the tea in the morning, fill the liter-capacity Thermos and sip when needed.

Then, of course, set up camp! Small (or large) fires have saved my butt many times.

I'm one of the freaks who enjoys pretending survival is at risk and getting as closely to its dark edges as I can. Winter is the perfect time for it, in addition to having a lot more people-less space with which to roam. Here in Utah, just as it is elsewhere, we're lucky. Outside of spring and fall, the land is lonely and spacious.

[evyck da fleet]

I had two brushes with early stages of hypothermia after my thru hike, which was my only hiking experience to that point.

The first was hiking from Guitar Lake to Mt Whitney by moonlight. I didn’t eat breakfast or drink anything until I was near the top. I went to have a snack and it stuck to the top of my mouth so I grabbed my water bottle which had ice crystals in it and mumbled a curse word. I started to rush up the mountain but calmed myself when I saw the emergency shelter. The stoners sleeping inside could tell I was in a bit of trouble by my delay in responding to them. They offered to make me tea while I got in my sleeping bag and caloried up before the sun rose.

The next year in the French Alps I stupidly tried to beat the weather over a pass and wound up being sweaty when the rain and sleet started. Thankfully there was an emergency shelter at the sign telling me the hut halfway through the day was two miles away. I made some tea, changed out of my wet shirt into a puff jacket, got in my sleeping bag and ate before stopping for the day at the next hut.

In each case the weather was fine when I started and neither hike was more than 10-15 miles but I had to stop halfway through each.

[illabelle]

In early April of this year we were finishing up Pennsylvania, from Pt Clinton to DWG.

Our itinerary included a couple days of slackpacking. One day we slacked 8 miles in 7 inches of snow from Smith Gap to Wind Gap. Not too bad. The next day we slacked 12 miles in 4 inches of snow from Lehigh Gap back to Smith Gap. Light rain started soon after we got up the Lehigh climb, and continued through most of the day. We were underdressed. We had borrowed tiny daypacks from our host, but they were too small to carry much of anything. I was wearing a base layer and rain gear. I might have been wearing a fleece vest - I don't think so, but it's hard to remember. I had some gloves.

After we finished the climb, the trail stayed almost level on what appeared to be a snow-covered service road. It was kinda fun to scuff along through the slushy snow, but we didn't generate much heat. There was no sun. Rain continued. Started getting cold. Later we got up to an area near a tower where the trail crossed a service road and patchy snow obscured blazes painted on rocks. We lost the trail, followed some footsteps down the road, getting really cold, needed to eat, but didn't dare stop. Went back to the tower, found the trail, and went on. Kept going, going, going. Clothes were soaked. Boots and socks were soaked. Gloves were soaked. Don't stop, keep moving. The miles seemed to take forever. The theme of the day was Walk or Die. I don't ever want to do that again.

Thankfully our shuttle was waiting for us at the end, and took us promptly to a hot shower.

We should have taken one of our full-size packs with room for dry insulating layers, and a rain cover for the pack.

[Tipi Walter]

And then there are times when hypothermia nips at the heels so closely that the digits won't even operate. How to set up camp then? Heck, there have been times I could not even turn my front door's knob after winter bike rides or long hikes! Others with Raynaud's know what I'm talking about!

Some tricks I learned a long while ago:

1: Always be fit, so I could "hurry" and generate heat if I had to.
2: This meant having easily-accessible snacks (since human heat is mostly generated through the use of calories) that didn't freeze solid. No zippers, no hard-to-open pouches, no exposed digits.
3: Mittens instead of gloves, or, worst case scenario: hike with hands buried in the armpits or in the crotch. I think those of us who love cold-weather hiking/camping have all had to do this at one time or another. If it weren't for my crotch I'd have no fingers!
4: Hand-warming pouches, like skiers use. (I carry these as a back-up all winter here in high-altitude Utah, despite hating creating waste.)
5: Hot drinks. I actually carry a Thermos in winter. I realize this is impractical during thru-hikes, but it is entirely sensible during the cold, dark months. I just heat the tea in the morning, fill the liter-capacity Thermos and sip when needed.

Then, of course, set up camp! Small (or large) fires have saved my butt many times.

I'm one of the freaks who enjoys pretending survival is at risk and getting as closely to its dark edges as I can. Winter is the perfect time for it, in addition to having a lot more people-less space with which to roam. Here in Utah, just as it is elsewhere, we're lucky. Outside of spring and fall, the land is lonely and spacious.

Nice thoughts. It's funny but when I'm in the worst conditions with a backpack there's usually no time for snacks. Sounds weird but it's true. I just can't stop long enough to take the time to pull out an energy bar and chew. This is most especially true if my snacks are in the pack because that pack is not coming off no matter what. Keep Moving is the mantra---I think Snake Plissken once said this in a movie. Very good advice.

For me, the worst conditions mean I must squat and camp at the first place I find, even if it's in the middle of the trail. Why not?

Regarding mittens---they really help keep the hands warm and even dry with the right gear (like MLD eVent mitt shells or Nilas down mittens). And it's fun to leave camp at 0F with a hot hands pouch in each mitten. Sayonara cold hands. You can tear open a used hot hands and sprinkle the harmless ingredients into a fire pit and burn the empty paper pouch---ergo no waste.

Cold hands down my crotch? That's risky for me cuz I have a biting iguana down there---might lose digits!!

[George]

when I see trail runners at distance from a road the "what ifs " come to mind

so much more resources when you are set for camping

[garlic08]

Good stories, good lessons.

I've never had a close call on a hike or ski. I learned my lesson on a pass descent on a touring bicycle.

That was on a sunny beach in No. California, on a windy, mildly chilly day (mid 50s F) in May. I'd just climbed a steep 2000' grade from an inland valley at 80F and got myself soaked with sweat in cotton clothing, then coasted down to the beach. By the time I stopped, it was a struggle to open a pack to change clothing, or open a package of food, much less set up a stove. Scariest thing, I was confused about how best to handle the situation. Mistake there was not stopping to rest and eat and change clothing at the summit. I was fatigued and probably dehydrated, not to mention young and ignorant.

[colorado_rob]

Aha! That CA story reminded me of a third "close call".... I grew up with the Big Red Machine (Reds) in Cincinnati, and in 1974, we did a road trip following them to CA, saw a couple of Reds/Dodger's games in LA, then off to see them in San Fran.... Yikes! About 40 degrees and drizzly at game time, here we were in shorts and t-shirts watching baseball in July in San Francisco, drinking beer and shivering uncontrollably. Yikes! "The coldest winter I ever spent was summer in San Francisco!" (Mark Twain, I think).

[nsherry61]

Hands so cold you can't operate zippers, or even get your cold wet gloves off, legs so cold you can't manage to step over a knee high rock or get your leg over the top-tube of your bicycle to get off, uncontrollable shivering, heck, these were all standard fair growing up in Oregon and doing things outside in the winter time. We never thought much about it as early stage hypothermia, we just thought of it as miserably cold, uncomfortable, and inconvenient . . . the key being, at least as kids, we were never in these states of physical cold (and often soaking wet) where we were more than an hour or two from a car, house, lodge, or other shelter within reach as long as we kept moving. As an adult, I've certainly been in similarly cold and wet situations on a couple of occasions in the back-country where we needed to stop early and get into sleeping bags to get warm, but I never thought of it as being on the scary edge of hypothermia, I thought of it as being crazy cold and needing to take action before it got scary - or we lost the ability to think of it as scary.

By far the coldest I've ever been, and the only time I thought of myself as being truly and problematically hypothermic was once when, along with all the other symptoms listed above I also lost the ability to speak coherently. Luckily I had capable people around me and it was mid-summer and 80+ degrees in the shade. So, once on land and out of my wholly inadequate and dysfunctional wet suit, getting warm wasn't a problem.

[Riocielo]

Thanks for sharing your experiences.I am wondering if anyone has ever used one of those emergency mylar blankets or shelters before and how it performed.I have one,weighs under 4 oz,and I have always wondered about how effective it would be when the chips are down.On our second section hike, which was almost entirely in the rain, our last night was unexpectedly cold. I had tossed the mylar blankets in my pack as an after thought. That night we were colder than I ever remember being. I pulled out the blankets and was thrilled to have them. While they were quite noisy, they did keep us warm. Since then, I always carry some in our packs.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[nsherry61]

. . . mylar blankets . . . I pulled out the blankets and was thrilled to have them. While they were quite noisy, they did keep us warm. Since then, I always carry some in our packs.
I've found emergency blankets of limited use backpacking. Yes, they can be helpful when you have nothing else. But, if you are carrying a pack with shelter and insulation in it, you are better off adding 4 oz of weight to your sleeping bag insulation or carrying a shelter that is 4 oz heaver and more effective than you are carrying 4 oz of emergency blanket.

Day hiking is another story. I still don't often carry an emergency blanket on day hikes because I carry my poncho for rain gear and emergency shelter. When I don't carry my poncho, I have been known to carry a SOL emergency bivvy that is essentially a folded over emergency blanket taped closed into a sleeping bag. And, for super-ultralight overnights when I don't take a shelter because I don't expect any weather, I might take an emergency blanket as an ultralight emergency tarp in case the unexpected occurs, but then, why not just take a bivy that weighs a little more, breaths better and provides more weather protection and allows me to carry even less insulation?

[tiptoe]

I've had many brushes with hypothermia while hiking, and want to stress that this can be a problem at relatively warm temperatures (40s, 50s and even 60s), especially in a steady, wind-driven rain. My fingers have been chilled to the point where I can't even unbuckle my pack. Yes, I'm an old woman and relatively thin; younger, more robust folks may not be similarly affected in these conditions. The advice offered in this thread is very good, and I have little to add, except for being aware of how your body reacts. I would never skimp on raingear or base layers, even in summer.

[Tipi Walter]

I've had many brushes with hypothermia while hiking, and want to stress that this can be a problem at relatively warm temperatures (40s, 50s and even 60s), especially in a steady, wind-driven rain. My fingers have been chilled to the point where I can't even unbuckle my pack. Yes, I'm an old woman and relatively thin; younger, more robust folks may not be similarly affected in these conditions. The advice offered in this thread is very good, and I have little to add, except for being aware of how your body reacts. I would never skimp on raingear or base layers, even in summer.

The Wooden Hand phenom goes with cold weather backpacking. My hand writing in the trail journal after I set up camp looks like something scrawled out by 121 year old Jack Crabb---it's all over the page.

Are numb wooden hands the end of the world? Naw, you just somehow get the pack off and the tent up. Blowing warm air in the hands while all this is going on is the only way to eventually sit inside the tent.

[tiptoe]

Naw, you just somehow get the pack off and the tent up.

Yes, that's just what I did, though it was a hammock, not a tent. I know it's not the end of the world, but it is an issue that can be the first of cascading issues, particularly when you hike alone, as I do. Tipi, you backpack in extreme conditions; I don't.

[Tipi Walter]

Yes, that's just what I did, though it was a hammock, not a tent. I know it's not the end of the world, but it is an issue that can be the first of cascading issues, particularly when you hike alone, as I do. Tipi, you backpack in extreme conditions; I don't.

As others have mentioned, extreme conditions can mean hiking in a 45F rainstorm---welcome to Wooden Hands. Hunkering in for several in-tent zero days is usually called for during "really" Extreme Conditions.

[TwoSpirits]

One thing I learned years ago from a ski instructor when my fingers became so cold they were painful and/or useless: do windmills. By wind-milling your arms rapidly for just a bit, the centrifugal force pushes blood into your fingers and solves your problem. I may not be describing the science correctly, but the end result never fails. Warms fingers every single time.

[Five Tango]

One thing I learned years ago from a ski instructor when my fingers became so cold they were painful and/or useless: do windmills. By wind-milling your arms rapidly for just a bit, the centrifugal force pushes blood into your fingers and solves your problem. I may not be describing the science correctly, but the end result never fails. Warms fingers every single time.

That's one that I have heard before but had not thought about lately.Thanks for mentioning it.I have heard Shug talk about foot stomping to warm feet up before bedtime too,same principle I suppose.

[garlic08]

One thing I learned years ago from a ski instructor when my fingers became so cold they were painful and/or useless: do windmills. By wind-milling your arms rapidly for just a bit, the centrifugal force pushes blood into your fingers and solves your problem. I may not be describing the science correctly, but the end result never fails. Warms fingers every single time.

I think any motion does the trick. What you need is circulation--the blood needs to return to the core to heat up again--not just pushing blood one way. Constricting clothing makes things worse (which is why wearing my jacket to bed makes me feel colder).

Also remember there's a physiological reason your feet and hands get cold first. When faced with falling temps, the body will shut down blood flow to the extremities to save the core. If you're seriously hypothermic, forcing cold blood from the extremities back into the core could be harmful. There's a case where a father and son were caught out in winter overnight. The father died, the son lived with frostbitten hands and feet. The father was on medication that improved blood flow, and his extremities acted as radiators for his body heat. The son's core was warm enough but he lost fingers and toes.

[Tipi Walter]

Also remember there's a physiological reason your feet and hands get cold first.

I like to put things into sound bites---like my definition of backpacking: MANAGING DISCOMFORT.

I have one for winter backpacking: IT'S ALL ABOUT THE HANDS AND FEET.

[blue indian]

i believe threads like this can be invaluable, and not just for the novice hiker either. Reading accounts of real world experience can save lives. So here goes my experience...

Ive noticed most of these posts involve rain or snow....Interestingly enough mine doesn't involve either. It involves heavy fog.

My girlfriend and I were section hiking Virginia last year, Early October. We were just north of Grayson Highlands hiking sobo. The previous day was quite warm, warm enough to sweat and even got a little sun burnt. In fact I remember walking around camp without a shirt on that evening. It rained that night dropping the temps significantly. The rain had ceased at some point overnight but it left the air completely saturated. We packed up camp, had warm coffee and a bar and starting hiking.

I was hiking in what I had on the day before which was shorts and short sleeves; although we had our "winter gear" with us. About 2 miles in I noticed I was shivering. I thought if we just kept moving I would be fine. My girlfriend has many more layers on that I and was fine but noticed my shivering. I was being stubborn and insisted I was fine and to just keep moving thinking I would warm up and the temps would rise, especially given the warm temps the day before. 20 minutes later the shivering hadnt stopped and I noticed I was feeling a little "slow" in my head. The girlfriend finally convinced me to stop being an idiot and put a layer on. I complied, warmed up and felt much better.

Moral of the story, dont be stubborn and be preemptive. Dont wait until the shivering starts. Be one step head. On my JMT thru hike this August I always took the approach of "I would always rather have the extra layers on and be too warm than to try and put the layers on to warm up"

[marilandica]

It started as a half-joke, but my partner and I, when faced with inclement weather on a trail, regularly do a "let's review the signs of hypothermia" bit together. We were just discussing (on a rainy but warm hike last week) how, for all of the worrying people do about bears, snakes and creeps, the real risks on the trail are (1) slip and fall (2) ticks and (3) hypothermia.

[Tipi Walter]

It started as a half-joke, but my partner and I, when faced with inclement weather on a trail, regularly do a "let's review the signs of hypothermia" bit together. We were just discussing (on a rainy but warm hike last week) how, for all of the worrying people do about bears, snakes and creeps, the real risks on the trail are (1) slip and fall (2) ticks and (3) hypothermia.

Slip And Fall is a big one for me since my pack is usually in the 80 lb range---requiring careful boot placement and eye-to-trail coordination at all times. Esp on a snowy trail.

Ticks are not a consideration where I backpack in the Southeast. They get on me---I pull them off.

YELLOW JACKETS on the other hand are a real nuisance between August and thru October. I WILL get stung so I keep my eyeballs open for their nests and carry some StingKill juice.

And Rattlesnakes have taken over the mountains of TN and NC so they're a real concern from June into September. Keep Your Eyeballs Open and Your Butt Cheeks Clenched---my hiking mantra.

Hypothermia might be a real issue with dayhikers but as a backpacker it never presents a problem since I can always stop somewhere and set up camp.

Here's the things which affect me---

** Lightning storms and zapping white flash bolts when I'm set up at exposed spots.
** Falling dead tree snags in a windstorm or at any time.
** The aforementioned Rattleheads and Yellow Butts.
** High water creek crossings after big rainstorms when I'm on the wrong side of a creek and need to get to the other side---often resulting in making some stupid decisions to cross when I SHOULD STAY PUT.

[blue indian]

Slip And Fall is a big one for me since my pack is usually in the 80 lb range---requiring careful boot placement and eye-to-trail coordination at all times. Esp on a snowy trail.

Ticks are not a consideration where I backpack in the Southeast. They get on me---I pull them off.

YELLOW JACKETS on the other hand are a real nuisance between August and thru October. I WILL get stung so I keep my eyeballs open for their nests and carry some StingKill juice.

And Rattlesnakes have taken over the mountains of TN and NC so they're a real concern from June into September. Keep Your Eyeballs Open and Your Butt Cheeks Clenched---my hiking mantra.

Hypothermia might be a real issue with dayhikers but as a backpacker it never presents a problem since I can always stop somewhere and set up camp.

Here's the things which affect me---

** Lightning storms and zapping white flash bolts when I'm set up at exposed spots.
** Falling dead tree snags in a windstorm or at any time.
** The aforementioned Rattleheads and Yellow Butts.
** High water creek crossings after big rainstorms when I'm on the wrong side of a creek and need to get to the other side---often resulting in making some stupid decisions to cross when I SHOULD STAY PUT.



Rattlesnakes have taken over the mountains? Could you expand please sir?

[Tipi Walter]

Rattlesnakes have taken over the mountains? Could you expand please sir?

They are the Grizzlies of the Southeast---and put the Wild in Wilderness. On one backpacking trip I saw 3 rattlesnakes and 1 copperhead. On a recent summer trip I saw 3 rattlesnakes.

Dubious? Check out my keyword Snake pics from previous trips---

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/keyword/snakes/

[Hosh]

Rattlesnakes the grizzlies of the SE, PLEASE, ROFLMAO.

You should leave your comfy back yard , come out west and try your snake charmer skills on a 7’ male grizzly.

You could throw 20 jars of Skippy at him.

[nsherry61]

Rattlesnakes the grizzlies of the SE, PLEASE, ROFLMAO.
You should leave your comfy back yard , come out west and try your snake charmer skills on a 7’ male grizzly.


I think Tipi is on to something. They're both highly overrated dangers.

I've encountered several of each and been stupidly close to both in the wild (yes, stupid!). Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never had a rattler do more than rattle as I stopped abruptly and walked around it. Most of them are making a concerted effort to get away. Grizzlies, at least in Alaska have mostly pretty much ignored me as I try not to wet my pants and back away.

People really need to focus on the more real dangers of falling, hypothermia, lightning and insect bites/stings if you're allergic. Wild animals just don't rank up there with the others in dangerous and if you behave appropriately (yes educate yourself!) the risk is even more minute.

[Venchka]

Rattlesnakes the grizzlies of the SE, PLEASE, ROFLMAO.

You should leave your comfy back yard , come out west and try your snake charmer skills on a 7’ male grizzly.

You could throw 20 jars of Skippy at him.
Very interesting. Looking at Yellowstone which has a healthy Grizz population and the Prairie Rattlesnake...
“...While it can’t hurt to be on the lookout for these slitherers, the National Park Service has only recorded two rattlesnake bites in Yellowstone’s history.”
Consider yourself lucky if you happen to be in Grand Teton NP and get a glimpse of Bear #399, age 22 and her offspring Trouble and Velcro Child.
Wayne

[clusterone]

Ok enough with the debating, taking a good thread off track. Any others with experiences to share?!!

[psyculman]

They do work reasonably well for a one-use warmup, but not so much as an actual shelter. And really, to get or keep warm, it's usually better to just keep going, making sure to eat calories. Calories = heat! (quite literally)

There are some slightly heavier options that are quite a bit more effective, one can actually sleep (or rest, at least) in something like this (5.5 oz, but expensive!):

https://www.redcross.org/store/survive-outdoors-longer-sol-escape-lite-breathable-bivvy/0140-1227.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwxvbdBRC0ARIsAKmec9bxGiqVa_ P-Yi-bvjIyXZQtBDMjhG__qcImmACeIOZ-UgqvCi5555UaAg_AEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CO7qhqXw-90CFRVLAQodz-MEgA

Thank you for posting this product. Regardless of the cost, it's going to be in my pack always, summer or winter.

[egilbe]

My only experience with Hypothermia that I can recall is my gf's full body shakes right after a Muckfest race for a cure for MS in Dallas last year. It was a sunny day in October. The day before we arrived and the day after we left the temps were in the 80's in Dallas. The four days we were there, the temps plummeted to the 30's and 40's. The race course is s seres of water obstacles and mud pits strewn over a 5k race course. The wind was a pretty steady 25 to 30 mph. While we were running, we stayed warm enough. The water obstacles were warm. When we finished the race, there were showers to wash the mud off. It gets everywhere. While standing outside waiting for the showers, my GF started experiencing full body shakes. We saw people wrapped up in mylar blankets, but couldn't find for ourselves. Another woman saw her shivering, shaking really, and found her and emergency blanket to use. Her shivering stopped shortly after she wrapped herself up in it. Those blankets do work.

It was scary how fast she cooled off in that wind.

[peakbagger]

Take a inadvertent dump from a canoe or a kayak in the spring in New England and you will see how quickly it kicks in. One minute you have use of your hands and the minute later you dont.

[garlic08]

Take a inadvertent dump from a canoe or a kayak in the spring in New England and you will see how quickly it kicks in. One minute you have use of your hands and the minute later you dont.

Sorry, I'm still laughing. We have different definitions of "taking a dump," and inadvertent ones are definitely one of my fears as I age. Every fart is a risk, as they say.

[Nanatuk]

LOL... Just spit my coffee across my laptop screen :)

[peakbagger]

I can see your point. Of course talk to a hard core sea kayaker about the gymnastics they have to go through if they have to take one of your style dumps in the middle of a long crossing and its gets even more interesting. On occasion your style dump leads to a paddling dump ;)

[Trainguy]

I was wondering how someone takes an inadvertent dump from a canoe. :-? Made me laugh...thanks.

[Five Tango]

I have only had the shivers once.The weather was perfect and only 38 degrees Farenheit.Yet I was so cold in my hammock that shivers set in.I got up,put on all my dry clothes and shell layer and ate some sort of candy or energy bar.Moved around a bit to get the circulation going and got back amongst the feathers.Shivers went away quickly and rest of the night was fine.I think energy bars don't get enough credit as we focus more on clothes.

Some say you don't need much in the way of clothes when immersed in goose down quilts and it may work great for some people but I'm not one of them.

[devoidapop]

Take a inadvertent dump from a canoe or a kayak in the spring in New England and you will see how quickly it kicks in. One minute you have use of your hands and the minute later you dont.

One February in MD we got a 70 something degree day out of nowhere and everybody lost their mind, including me. I loaded up the canoe that me and my friends had been using as a sled all winter and hit the Piscataway Creek. Canoe sank in a matter of minutes and I was swimming back in frigid water. About 10 yard from shore my muscles were giving out and I thought I was dying one of the all time dumbest deaths.

[LittleTim]

One February in MD we got a 70 something degree day out of nowhere and everybody lost their mind, including me. I loaded up the canoe that me and my friends had been using as a sled all winter and hit the Piscataway Creek. Canoe sank in a matter of minutes and I was swimming back in frigid water. About 10 yard from shore my muscles were giving out and I thought I was dying one of the all time dumbest deaths.

Yup. I capsized after an elevation drop (barely can call it a rapid), in 50* water, about the same air temp, a good 15mph breeze, and had another 5 miles to row to get back to our vehicles. That was a bit scary, but I furiously rowed and kept the shivers away. Took a few hours once we got back to my friends house to shake off the cold.

That leads to my current practice of zero tolerance for being out on anything that is a lower combined temp of 120*. USGS website is good for finding the current water temp, water level, and discharge rate.

And also was amazed at how well the life jacket popped me up to the surface, something I wasn't religious about wearing but a friend insisted. Now I wear it any time I'm on moving water (not a lake).

[Feral Bill]

Yup. I capsized after an elevation drop (barely can call it a rapid), in 50* water, about the same air temp, a good 15mph breeze, and had another 5 miles to row to get back to our vehicles. That was a bit scary, but I furiously rowed and kept the shivers away. Took a few hours once we got back to my friends house to shake off the cold.

That leads to my current practice of zero tolerance for being out on anything that is a lower combined temp of 120*. USGS website is good for finding the current water temp, water level, and discharge rate.

And also was amazed at how well the life jacket popped me up to the surface, something I wasn't religious about wearing but a friend insisted. Now I wear it any time I'm on moving water (not a lake).

35* water with 85* air would scare me silly.

[reppans]

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences, it's educational and hugely important - exposure is #2 on the 'rules of three' list... (three hours). I'm into a lot of different outdoor activities where hypothermia is a risk, and I am often solo, and outside of cell range. I fortunately do not have such a similar experience - probably a lot owing to being a New England skier since childhood.

[reppans]

(Whoops, accidentally hit the reply before finished - and of course cannot edit on this forum).

Anyways, I'm also into preparedness and EDC some of my backpacking gear in a ~6lb/L murse that is practical for every day use, yet can multi-task in case of emergency. There're are several aspects to it, but the most important to me for hypothermia prevention is my 7 or 10oz poncho/tarp and 5oz stove (empty toilet paper roll size). Together, they can make nicely heated micro shelter know as the Palmer Furnace (stove as a candle) which is good for an additional 30-40 degrees warmth from whatever you where prepared for.

I now also swear by ponchos (my backpacking shelter is Gatewood Cape poncho/tent and bedding is JRB Sierra series poncho/quilt) since they are super warm while idle/sitting around camp and during breaks - due to the 'mitten effect' of having all limbs inside. Then if you introduce artificial heat (eg, Alcohol candle) in the protected triangle of your legs while sitting cross-legged on a pad, it can create a micro climate that's warmer and more luxurious than a hot tent... esp if using an insulated poncho like the JRB Sierras.

[zelph]

I now also swear by ponchos (my backpacking shelter is Gatewood Cape poncho/tent and bedding is JRB Sierra series poncho/quilt) since they are super warm while idle/sitting around camp and during breaks - due to the 'mitten effect' of having all limbs inside. Then if you introduce artificial heat (eg, Alcohol candle) in the protected triangle of your legs while sitting cross-legged on a pad, it can create a micro climate that's warmer and more luxurious than a hot tent... esp if using an insulated poncho like the JRB Sierras.

THAT is very interesting!!!http://bushcraftusa.com/forum/images/smilies/dblthumb2.gif

[Dogwood]

In another thread there was some short discussion of hypthermia and I thought it might be helplful to some if I shared a couple "near misses" I have had. Let me preface this with the fact that both of these showed glaring error judgments on my part, but I survived. Also both occurred during my AT thru hike. At the time of the first instance, I had already hiked over 600 miles and in the second instance over 1600. Prior to starting my thru hike, I had done over 800 miles of backpacking in the southeast. So, I thought I knew what I was doing.

In Central VA, the weather warmed up in mid April and I swapped out my rain suit for a poncho. Within two days, I found myself on a 3800 ft ridge in a driving, windy rainstorm, with temps that had dropped into the mid-40's. Ponchos usually only cover the tops of your forearms so any long sleeve top must be pulled up or it will get wet and soaked. I hiked in the cold rain for about 3 hours. I had tentatively planned to get a shuttle at VA 623 to a nearby hostel for the night. I could feel my body getting very cold and losing all dexterity in my fingers. I knew if I stopped, I would get cold very quickly, so I kept moving as fast as I could to keep my body temp as high as possible. I did have all my gear, so stopping to pitch a tent and get in my bag was an option, even though the terrain did not afford me any open spots. I recall waiting on the shuttle by pacing around on the edge of the road and shivering. When I got in the pickup truck, I begged the driver to turn the heat up to "high".

Bad move to go for the poncho that early. Within two days, I bought a Frog Togs set at Trents Grocery. I ended up sending my rain pants home within a month, but kept the rain jacket and poncho the rest of the way. Ponchos are for warm weather.

My second bout with Hypothermia occurred outside Bennington, VT in early June. I was hiking with another guy and it rained constantly for about 20 hours going into town and our first night staying there. We decided to slack pack a 21 mile section north of Bennington, and end up back at the trailhead outside of town for another night in a motel. We got dropped off and the rain started again. It rained constantly all day. As we were slack packing we only had rain jackets, baseball hats, snacks, maps and trekking poles. Our usual slack pack gear. The temps never got out of the mid-40's and we stayed on a ridge around 3000 ft.

Within 45 minutes we knew it was a bad idea, but there was not a single road crossing or bail out point. There was no cell service back at the remote trailhead where we had been dropped off. We didn't have much choice. We kept moving. Both of us lost manual dexterity off and on throughout the day. My hiking partner actually urinated on himself as he walked because he knew he couldn't get his zipper down with his fingers. We spent over 7 hours out there. We never stopped, because we couldn't. We saw several AT and Long Trail thrus, who shut it down in shelters along that stretch and later told us it was the worst day of the entire hike for them. We did not have that luxury. Around the 15 mile mark we had to ford a swollen brook. It typically would have been a breeze, but with over 24 hours of constant rain, it was rocking and rolling. We went up and down the bank for about 25 minutes and finally just crossed at the AT. It was sketchy, but we made it.

By the time we got down to the trail head, I didn't have enough manual dexterity to use my phone. Once again, we shivered in the lot waiting for our ride. That night we both talked about lessons learned.

Two long stories, but a couple thoughts. Be careful out there. You may have some experience, but you can easily get yourself in a dicey situation. Be especially careful of getting cold and wet at the same time. Make sure you keep your sleeping bag dry and good to have a dry change of clothes. As I like to say, Mother Nature is indifferent about outcomes.
Good rec on the poncho.

Good thing about ponchos 1) freedom of movement 2) how much they vent heat/they tend not to trap heat
Bad thing about ponchos- potentially 1) they dont hold in the heat 2) dont typically have hand pockets like many rain jackets so some alternative option to keeping hands warm in cold or cooling temps has to be addressed. I've seen poncho wearers braving cold and high winds with cold wet hands because they didnt address this quite often.

Mid April on the AT in VA I'd still bring along a rain jacket w pockets or without while having separate light wt gloves and or shells. Most times rain jacket wearers dont appropriately proactively address thermoregulation by fully utilizing jacket mechanical venting BEFORE heating up and overwhelming breathability of the jacket. THEN, the jacket or tech gets the full blame. It's another one of those topics like layering systems that many times we assume we know more than we actually do. Breathability sure helps but the biggest contributor to comfortable thermoregulation is having an awareness of it proactively and in choosing appropriate pieces while paying attention to utmost usage of venting options.

[Dogwood]

At some pt before things deteriorate into a whirlwind when we're backpacking having things like shelter, dry sleeping bags, changes of clothes/additional unworn, ability to start a fire, etc STOP Set up camp quickly. Get warm. I think it's a lot like getting lost. We keep telling ourselves to keep going, get to that road, catch the shuttle, over the next rise, maybe there's a motel, is there an AYCE, etc. Then we get more disoriented, more uncomfortable. What happens when none of that stuff is near on a hike? Worse is when we're spent exhausted, near hypothermic, and continue as that usually snowballs into a worse situation.

LIKELY the warmest piece in your entire kit is you sleeping bag. USE IT. Have a tent, tarp, ground cloth? - use it as a apparel layer. Have hats on jackets? - put em all on. Have hand pockets on jackets? get yur hands in them. Tuck everything in. Dont sweat. A sleeping bag or quilt has saved my arse many times. Eat. Eat or drink something hot. Get some fat into the furnace.

[reppans]

THAT is very interesting!!!http://bushcraftusa.com/forum/images/smilies/dblthumb2.gif

?? You're a member of BushcrafterUSA... none of this should be new - lots of Palmer Furnace discussion there.

While backpacking, your shelter and bedding is obviously going to be your warmest retreat, but it's still going to be hard to warm-up if you're already seriously chilled. There is nothing comparable to using an artificial space heating source to warm up quickly and arguably even 'hot' (with with an insulated poncho). I occasionally use it for luxury just before going to bed, and getting out of bed.

Also, a point was made above that hypothermia risk is higher with unprepared day hikers that aren't carrying their 'house' in their backs. This can be effectively done for a mere 0.25 lb/L pocket carry.

[Dogwood]

?? You're a member of BushcrafterUSA... none of this should be new - lots of Palmer Furnace discussion there.

While backpacking, your shelter and bedding is obviously going to be your warmest retreat, but it's still going to be hard to warm-up if you're already seriously chilled. There is nothing comparable to using an artificial space heating source to warm up quickly and arguably even 'hot' (with with an insulated poncho). I occasionally use it for luxury just before going to bed, and getting out of bed.

Also, a point was made above that hypothermia risk is higher with unprepared day hikers that aren't carrying their 'house' in their backs. This can be effectively done for a mere 0.25 lb/L pocket carry.
But I ask - what developed -, and have evaluated many times personally, how did I arrive in such a seriously chilled state...under my supposed watchful knowledgeable awareness? :-? That's what the thread is about...learning from our own and other's experiences. AND, experiences dont always happen to us without our input...without our consent. Sure, perhaps I unexpectedly fell into an icy river while crossing a snowbridge but getting into such a state often means I have not proactively addressed thermoregulation. What I've arrived at is these states rarely fall out of the sky(no pun intended) happening to us without us allowing them to develop. AND, as the OP declared sometimes we assume we know more - assume we are better prepared - than we actually are. AND, being prepared is NOT always about more gear! More gear is NOT the be all end all savior we always assume it is! Having better judgment, wider skill sets, abilities in using not only the gear we do have but what's between our ears.

[reppans]

But I ask - what developed -, and have evaluated many times personally, how did I arrive in such a seriously chilled state...under my supposed watchful knowledgeable awareness? :-? That's what the thread is about...learning from our own and other's experiences. AND, experiences dont always happen to us without our input...without our consent. Sure, perhaps I unexpectedly fell into an icy river while crossing a snowbridge but getting into such a state often means I have not proactively addressed thermoregulation. What I've arrived at is these states rarely fall out of the sky(no pun intended) happening to us without us allowing them to develop. AND, as the OP declared sometimes we assume we know more - assume we are better prepared - than we actually are. AND, being prepared is NOT always about more gear! More gear is NOT the be all end all savior we always assume it is! Having better judgment, wider skill sets, abilities in using not only the gear we do have but what's between our ears.

It's all good. We take our chances with risky endeavors, well, because risk is somewhat correlated with excitement, and/or sense of accomplishment. We think we know what to do in any situation, but of course we don't, and then there are accidents that change things too. It's good to talk about both the surprises that take us to the limit, and the potential solutions that may be able to mitigate those surprises. Whether you use knowledge or gear for back-up plans, you simply need to have as many layers of back-up plans as you can. If I where that 'Primative Technologies' bushcraft guy on YouTube, I probably wouldn't need single piece of gear, but I'm not, and need some stuff - my spin is just to multi-task that stuff so that it has regular purpose backpacking, hiking, or XC skiing, but then can also be invaluable in an emergency too.

[Slo-go'en]

I now also swear by ponchos (my backpacking shelter is Gatewood Cape poncho/tent and bedding is JRB Sierra series poncho/quilt) since they are super warm while idle/sitting around camp and during breaks - due to the 'mitten effect' of having all limbs inside. Then if you introduce artificial heat (eg, Alcohol candle) in the protected triangle of your legs while sitting cross-legged on a pad, it can create a micro climate that's warmer and more luxurious than a hot tent... esp if using an insulated poncho like the JRB Sierras.

I've never heard of an alcohol candle, but I hope it has an enclosed flame or you best be damn careful not to set yourself on fire! A candle lantern will provide also provide some heat and since it is contained, is a safer source of heat. And if it does get accidently knocked over, there's a good chance the flame will go out.

[reppans]

I've never heard of an alcohol candle, but I hope it has an enclosed flame or you best be damn careful not to set yourself on fire! A candle lantern will provide also provide some heat and since it is contained, is a safer source of heat. And if it does get accidently knocked over, there's a good chance the flame will go out.

Yes, spot on... the UCO Candle Lanterns are excellent for this (just need to fashion a wider, more stable base for the tall/narrow versions) but as an ultra-lighter, it's not something I would want to EDC or backpack for just-in-case scenarios.

I'm just using my regular alcohol stove as a container, and capping it with a tinfoil or tin can lid with a wick in - basically the same thing as an oil candle, and it burns about 5mins/ml. For safety, place the candle into a pot/cup with a couple oz of water in the bottom - the pot prevents flame risk from the sides and the water will dilute/extinguish the flame in a tip-over. Some flame risk is still present at the top of the pot, but as long as you don't fall asleep, it's well monitored/controlled since it also happens to be in the perfect hand warming location underneath the poncho. THIS (https://farm1.staticflickr.com/868/40160516075_78d4b78a12_b.jpg) picture illustrates it. In addition, HERE's (https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1766/42234173924_e54819a5a0_b.jpg) my abbreviated EDC kitchen, and I use Everclear for fuel, so the rig is tiny yet so multi-tasking that it is well worth EDC carry (for me).

[TwoSpirits]

I have really enjoyed my UCO candle lantern when camping on some long dark winter nights...but my enjoyment has always been haunted with fear that I'll burn the tent down, so I haven't used it as much as I thought I would. I never ever have it on the floor, and always hang it from the top of the tent, but even when it is hanging by several inches, I worry that the heat coming out the top could be enough to initiate a meltdown of the supersil nylon fabric.

Overly cautious? I don't know. It would be nice to be able to play around and test things like this, but unfortunately I don't have a spare expensive tent laying around. ;)

[reppans]

I also wouldn't leave any flame burning while I slept... too dangerous. If you need artificial heat to sleep with, then boil water and put it in an Nalgene (with clothing wrapped around it to control output) inside your sleeping bag.

I also don't like using a candle for space heating a tent - too weak a heating source for too large/too drafty a space, it's very inefficient.

The Palmer Furnace is right sized for a candle, and from what I've read, was invented by the caver and hypothermia specialist Dr. Jonathan Palmer, except original use was with a carbide lantern. Plenty of stories where this technique has saved lives allowing overnight survival in extreme conditions.

For me, it's nice a short term luxury (~30 mins) to get deep full-body heat soak just before crawling into bed, and/or just after getting out bed. Getting yourself a little 'hot' at these transition points goes a long way in terms of comfort.

Of course, in survival situation, it could be used continuously... but you'd have to stay awake - IMHO, falling asleep with a Palmer Furnace is kinda like 'out of the frying pan and into the fire' ;-).

[zelph]

Palmer Furnace
https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/116467-UCO-candle-lantern-Any-users

[quote]"Secondmouse"

if the requirement is for hypothermia kit, then they are probably thinking about something called a Palmer Furnace.similar to a Scout Fire, where the need is to build a small fire and avoid detection, the Palmer Furnace is for rapid body warming. to do this, sit down cross-legged with a blanket (reflective Space Blanket works good) around your shoulders and set a lit candle on the ground between your legs. you can completely close off the space and a couple of tea-light candles will warm you in a hurry. here's a pic of a Scout Fire.
http://www.practicalprimitive.com/images/newsletters/FireStructure/scoutfire.jpghttp://www.practicalprimitive.com/im.../scoutfire.jpgthe Palmer Furnace is done similarly but with a candle, or originally, a carbide miner's lamp.I think it goes without saying that since you are setting a fire between your legs, inside what is essentially your shelter, for safety you should remain very cautious. I suspect that is why they recommend you use the UCO lantern instead of an open flame...

[RockDoc]

It's a pretty serious problem, and it will happen to you if you hike enough.
I've learned the hard way that once you lose your body heat, it is very difficult to regain it. Nothing less than standing in a hot shower for 30-40 minutes and consuming lots of hot fluids and food.
Prevention is key. Going too light and relying on a cell phone to save you is nuts.

[RockDoc]

Yes, this works. The traditional Kasmiri kangir (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjKPpR8h8ec)is a coal fired hot pot that is suspended inside a heavy wollen poncho. I traveled in the Kashmir Himalaya some years ago and people were doing this everywhere.

[English Stu]

Arm swinging-I call it windmilling in the UK. Investing in the best gloves you can is a good idea; losing the use of your fingers make you makes you value you them. Erecting the tent, putting in tent stakes; trying to make drinks and food is a nightmare with stumpy hands and all the time you are getting colder. As posted earlier-get into your shelter whilst you still can. Have you wits about you- if you see decent deadwood collect an armful for a fire as you are making your decision to stop i.e not stop and then look for wood.
On my trip up Mt Whitney I insisted we ate well before starting on it; I said hiking it on two snicker bars does not make a lot sense.

[handlebar]

Was re-reading my CDT2012 journal and came on this hypothermia experience from August 15:

"When I got back out to the highway, the wind was noticeably brisker. The trail climbed up from Flesher Pass up into a cloud on the divide. Visibility ranged from about 100 to 300 yards nearly all the way to Rogers Pass so there were no views in the section. The rain varied from a light drizzle to a light rain, both wind driven. The only thing that seemed happy and bright was the moss that adorned the corpses of the beetle-killed lodgepole pines along the trail. They had changed from a dull, grey green to bright chartreuse. The trail was good all day. I didn't misplace it once, perhaps because there were no views to distract me, perhaps because I was extra vigilant knowing walking in 42 to 47 degree cold rain was risking hypothermia. There were a good many climbs and descents as the trail rolled along true crest of the continental divide, Until about 9 miles into the hike my socks stayed dry. Then the boot waterproofing succumbed to the constant brushing by the water droplets adhering to the tufts of grass along the path. I kept up a steady pace lured by the promise of town food and a dry motel room in Lincoln. Even as cool as it was, I was sweating at a higher rate than my rain jacket could vent through the fabric so my long-sleeved wool T-shirt was getting damp. At least I was staying warm as long as I kept moving. At the top of each rise, there were outcrops of red shale. As I climbed them, I kept wondering if it was the last one before the descent to Rogers Pass. Finally, I could hear traffic on the road through the pass and before long the descent over long switchbacks began. I reached the pass trailhead about 1pm then walked out to the highway and about a quarter mile uphill to the actual pass where the pavement widened providing a good place for a car to pull over as I hitched. Unfortunately, the wind was strong through the pass. I added my warm jacket to the layers I had on under my rain jacket and my skull cap under my brimmed sun hat and jacket hood to try to stay warm. The traffic wasn't heavy, but it was steady. However, no one stopped to offer a ride. I guess they didn't want their car interior to get soaked. I started pacing back and forth on the shoulder to try and stay warm. I tried calling the motel in town to ask for a ride but their was no cell service. I decided I had to get out of the wind so started walking down the highway thinking I'd eventually get a ride or reach a point where the phone worked or, if the walking didn't warm me, find a place to set up my tarp and get into the sleeping bag to warm up. The walking helped but the berm of the highway was narrow and the spray from the tractor trailers was dousing me even though the rain had stopped. All the while I was walking, I kept hitching even though there wasn't any place for a car to pull off. Just as I was reaching another paved pullout area, I saw a car slow ahead, turn around, then pull into a side road on the other side of the highway. A ride at last!---and the heater was working!"


I was OK as long as I was moving, but standing in the wind in the pass hitching was causing me to chill. Like others have said, and I concluded here, it's best to take some action before one can no longer use his hands and fingers. Had that car not stopped, I would have pulled off to the side within a few hundred more yards as I had spotted a potential camp site, pitched my tent, jumped into my sleeping bag, fired up my stove outside the tent door and heated some water for a hot drink.