View Full Version : Winter gear evaluation for Presidential traverse
I'm preparing for a winter traverse attempt at the Presidential Range in New Hampshire next year. After years of winter backpacking down to about 0*, this has the potential to go significantly colder (and, obviously, a lot windier).
One of the pieces of gear I'm currently focusing on are boots. I've got a pair of La Sportiva Makalu's that should be perfect for the technical aspects of the trip, but aren't insulated for deep winter use. Has anybody used them or similar in that environment? I'm looking at a set of VB socks plus a thick outer sock (the boots are about a half size large so there's plenty of room for that). Also considering a set of insulated insoles. It looks like 3M used to make some that were well regarded, but they're no longer available. Any suggestions in that regard?
Old Hillwalker
10-17-2018, 16:58
I recommend these which combined with you listed boots should suffice. https://www.geartrade.com/item/415564/outdoor-research-x-gaiters-size-l-redblack
I'll definitely have a good set of gaiters (probably OR Crocodiles). Just focused on what's inside the boot for the moment, however.
Edit - just realized that the gaiters you linked are actually insulated. Hadn't run across that before. Interesting concept. Sorry for not paying closer attention before my initial reply.
ADK Walker
10-17-2018, 18:01
My thoughts are that the Makalus will be a very cold boot for the Presi Traverse. I'd suggest maybe renting a pair of insulated alpine boots from Ragged Mtn, EMS or IME. One thing to be aware of is adding an insulated insole could change the fit of the boot. I know because I did the same thing on a winter climb of Washington and got the worse blisters I've had in years even though the boots were several years old and perfectly broken in for me (Nepal GTX Evo).
If you're set on using the Maks then an insulated overboot is another option to increase the temp range and as an added bonus they give you a kind of "camp shoe" to walk around in at your bivy as long as the terrain is mild and you won't slip.
I love that range in the winter. Have fun!
Check out 40 Below for over boots.
Slo-go'en
10-17-2018, 21:01
Plastic double boots with a good set of crampons is the way to go. For a one time shot, rent the set up.
For the most part the snow is hard wind packed, hence the crampons. All the loose stuff is down in the trees just below tree line. The occasional drift you plow through. Snowshoes are of dubious value above tree line due to a lot of exposed rock. But you'll probably need them to get up there.
The most important part is picking the right day. The 2nd day after a cold front pushes through typically gives the best conditions with minimal wind.
Sounds like the rental is the only real option. A couple of good options in Bartlett so no big deal. I just have bad memories of the only time I've used doubles in the past.
I'm working on picking up a used set of crampons and snowshoes. We're doing a three day avalanche course then two days of basic mountaineering. After that we'll have a four day to get out into the mountains and hopefully decent weather to pull off a traverse.
Feral Bill
10-17-2018, 22:03
It's not a technical route, unless you seek that out. Way back when everyone used Mickey Mouse boots (military winter boots). They are heavy, clunky, and don't breath, but will keep your (damp) feet warm. You need hinged crampons, too. There is really no good substitute, to the point that the military, after years of trying variousl alternatives, has contracted for new production.
Have fun, and don't hesitate to bail if things get too intense. Who knows, you could get glorious sunny calm weather. I've seen ti that way there myself.
nsherry61
10-17-2018, 22:07
I'm always amazed at the level of gear people seem to feel the need for in winter. The Presi traverse is a lot of non-technical rough terrain. I haven't done the whole of it in one go in the winter, but I have spent some significant time above treeline in winter conditions in the presidentials. I may well bag it this winter. There is a lot to be said for being prepared for rough weather, but geez, heavy climbing boots and crampons? You just added 30% or more to your travel time and effort. I've never found a need for more than really good socks, vapor barrier liners, microspikes trail runners and good gaiters . . . unless I'm planning on standing around a bunch which I wouldn't plan on doing on a winter Presi traverse. If you're not standing/sitting around belaying and you're not to climbing high angle ice, there is just no call, in my book anyway, for all the extra weight and bulk of technical winter climbing gear. Lighten up. I do like the look of those insulated gaiters though. They'd be a nice extra insulation buffer over my trail runners if the weather and my ability to keep traveling was leading to colder feet than expected.
Good luck. It should be a great adventure!
ADK Walker
10-17-2018, 22:42
Micro-spikes could be worth their weight in gold. I've seen guided trips that carry both micro-spikes as well as 10 or 12 point non-tech. crampons. Having the right traction device will allow you to move quickly. I don't travel in the mountains in winter with out micro-spikes anymore and I'm usually carrying full ice climbing gear that includes a set of technical crampons anyway.
I think if I could only carry one traction device on a winter Presi Traverse I'd carry the micro-spikes in the right conditions. But I'd apply extra caution on the steeper ice patches which are usually found on the trails below treeline unless you are in the ravines. Just my opinion.
If the OP or anyone else is interested I have three or four pairs of Gore-tex insulated overboots that are in excellent shape. I have at least a medium, large and an x-large size left. PM me and we can talk cost and shipping. My hope is not to hyjack this thread but since the topic came up I'd thought I share.
Slo-go'en
10-17-2018, 23:40
I was a Gray Knob winter caretaker. Trust me, if this is a deep winter trek you want double boots and real crampons. Microspikes are okay, but fail on steep slopes and when you need to kick in steps or side step.
Whether we end up using all the gear is certainly open to whatever the weather holds in February when the time comes. I'd like to have all of it available to select from based on that weather, however. If I can start looking now and search patiently, my goal is to acquire what I can at roughly the cost of renting for the 10 days we'll be in the area.
My plan right now is to drive up, so plenty of room to carry an assortment of gear options. We're also splitting the cost of renting a condo for the week so we can sort through gear and have laundry, etc. I have a good 0* bag (Feathered Friends Snowbunting), but if it's going to be much colder then I'll consider renting.
ADX - I'll send you a PM about the overboots. Curious to see what you've got.
There's a pair of Sportiva Olympus Mons boots available on Geartrade in my size. Huge overkill for this trip, but tempting given that Rainier and then Denali are in the plans for the next 3-5 years if all goes well.
chknfngrs
10-18-2018, 09:11
Rent from IME and eat at the Thai place next door
The rental prices I've been writing down in my notes are all from IME, so that's the most likely source. A few items from NE Mountaineering since that's where we're taking the courses. Will check out the Thai place for sure. Sounds perfect for a cold day.
Feral Bill
10-18-2018, 11:07
Whether we end up using all the gear is certainly open to whatever the weather holds in February when the time comes. I'd like to have all of it available to select from based on that weather, however. If I can start looking now and search patiently, my goal is to acquire what I can at roughly the cost of renting for the 10 days we'll be in the area.
My plan right now is to drive up, so plenty of room to carry an assortment of gear options. We're also splitting the cost of renting a condo for the week so we can sort through gear and have laundry, etc. I have a good 0* bag (Feathered Friends Snowbunting), but if it's going to be much colder then I'll consider renting.
ADX - I'll send you a PM about the overboots. Curious to see what you've got.
There's a pair of Sportiva Olympus Mons boots available on Geartrade in my size. Huge overkill for this trip, but tempting given that Rainier and then Denali are in the plans for the next 3-5 years if all goes well.
A 0 degree bag is totally inadequate for the Whites in winter. Add an inner or outer bag, depending on volume, or else a generous three season (minimum) quilt. Regardless of weather forecast, carry the whole package. Otherwise use a true minus 20 degree or better bag. Seriously, you are very likely to need this, and the consequenses of inadequate gear are beyond unpleasant.
Right, that's why I'll almost certainly rent one based on the weather info that week. Buying another bag is not in the budget, so a rental is in the plan. I'll add a VB liner to the bag plus some worn layers as needed.
Slo-go'en
10-18-2018, 12:49
Some of the coldest temps of the year can be had in mid February. Or it can be unseasonably warm. Either way, it's a rare day the wind isn't blowing at 40-50 MPH gusts and that puts the wind chill well into the negative numbers.
Other important pieces of gear above tree line are a neoprene face mask, googles and mitten shells. The wind is usually out of the west/northwest so if you do a SOBO traverse the wind is mostly in your face. If the wind is out of the east, your in trouble as that means a nor'easter or other unpleasant weather is coming.
Here I am above tree line on a nice day in February way back in 1988...
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T.S.Kobzol
10-18-2018, 13:40
I think the suggestion for trailrunners is only good for day runs in best weather and a quick up and down. I have seen some 'enthusiasts' who have the (I hope) first done the traverse in proper gear and then gradually started replacing gear until they arrived at a 'trailrunning setup' and had the stamina to run the range in one day etc etc ... for someone like you where this is a one time thing to do , a challenge I would definitely recommend proper gear as suggested by the other posters.
1/2 size larger shoes for winter are already too small. I believe 1 to 1 and 1/2 size larger is a safe choice. Superfeet Grey (https://www.superfeet.com/en-us/insoles-and-sandals/merinogrey) are wool insoles that I use. If your boots are not insulated then thin sock, vapor barrier and a thick sock setup is what works for me.
Start with microspikes and carry crampons in the pack... depending on your trail and conditions you might need to whip them out of the pack as well as an ice axe that should also be carried. But in general if You go up Valley Way and from madison take the highline (geez I think it's called highline...I hope I'm not mixing it with another region that I did) trail that bypasses some of the peaks like adams ... with luck you can make it safely across the whole range to crawford path near Mt.Clinton without any extremely steep climbing. The thing is that you never know if You get hit halfway by some unexpected condition that will reroute your trail and in such cases you may just need the ice axe and crampons etc..
I would definitely go for renting those insulated boots from MEI (next to the Thai restaurant that has delicious Pad Thai and the craziest waiter in North Conway) .
There are some grey beards who have done the winter 48 as well as 'the grid' who now hike in super insulated Sorels and do well with it. Microspikes go fine on those but crampons are a little tricky but it can be done.
That's my 2 cents for the 'feet portion' of your initial post. Have a great time and don't become a statistic.
To clarify a few things...
I'll almost certainly be renting a warmer bag (-15 or -20) bag from IME
VB liner for the bag
Closed cell foam plus a self inflating pad. If I can swing it, I'll grab an XTherm.
We'll carry two 4 season tents. I'll have a MH Trango 2, not sure about the other half of the group yet.
Ice axe
Crampons
Microspikes
Snowshoes
Trekking poles with snow baskets
Liner gloves, outer gloves, plus mitts and shells.
Ski mask or large coverage sunglasses
Base layer pants, insulating layer, hiking pants, shells, and equivalent for shirt/jacket (probably a nano air jacket, Precip, and a down parka)
Neck gaiter/buff
Balaclava, sun hat, and a basic winter beanie
Liner socks, VB socks, insulated socks
Crampon compatible boot (probably rented doubles)
Gaiters (OR Crocodiles or similar)
Insulated water bottles
Liquid fuel stove (Whisperlite) with a heat exchanger
Not every piece of all that will go in the pack when we step off, but I'm trying to have the options with me to pack appropriately based on the weather conditions. There are also some smaller things I didn't list above, but that's the basics. Normally I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum (15-20 pounds with food and water when stepping off for a typical 3 season weekend trip) but this is as much a trip for gaining some experience (safely) as anything else.
Slo-go'en
10-18-2018, 14:48
Even as cold as it can be, it's also important not to overdress while hiking. You will sweat. Of course, you need all that other stuff when you stop moving.
The RMC Gray Knob cabin has a stove and a caretaker so that is usually a first night stop. Actually, it makes a good base camp to do Madison and Adams first to get some above tree line experience and/or wait for the weather to improve. There are several ways up to the cabin, none of them easy. I prefer Lowes Path.
There are not many places you can get out of the wind along the ridge line. If your planning to camp, somewhere next to the Lakes of the Clouds hut is your best bet. Stay out of the Cols, those are wind tunnels. I've had to cross Edmands Col pretty much on my hands and knees at times. There's usually a big snow drift on the lea side of Jefferson which can be a challenge to get up and over. There is some avalanche danger there too.
Yeah - moisture management will be a particular concern for me. I sweat a ton in general, so I usually have to force myself to hike as cold as possible and layer up on stops. May play some VB options as well to keep it out of the insulation layers.
ADK Walker
10-18-2018, 15:36
I had good luck using the thin produce bags found in the grocery store for VBL's for my feet when we did Katahdin in Februray one year. The long ski in to Chimney Pond would have left me with soaked thru inner-boots otherwise. Carried a few pair as they ony lasted a single day but they were almost undetecable because they are so thin.
A good sunscreen is also clutch in the winter above treeline. I like Dermatone myself.
Hikingjim
10-19-2018, 11:31
One thing to consider is that you'll want to lock in what you want to take and book rental stuff well in advance if you have a group (eg: sleeping bags, etc). Have ran into issues (not in the whites) with finding places that actually have what we want on short notice
If you're not used to carrying tons of winter gear, make sure everyone plans for all the bulk. A 5-6 lb synthetic sleeping bag (which is what most outfitters would have for -20 or -30) eats up a good amount of space
Slo-go'en
10-19-2018, 20:10
If you're not used to carrying tons of winter gear, make sure everyone plans for all the bulk. A 5-6 lb synthetic sleeping bag (which is what most outfitters would have for -20 or -30) eats up a good amount of space
You mean like this one? Man, that bag is like 30 years old and hasn't been out of the stuff sack in 20. I bet it doesn't fluff as well as it used too. Weighs 5 pounds, 10 ounces. Can't believe I used to lug that thing up the side of a mountain! Along with another 30 pounds of stuff.
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AllDownhillFromHere
10-19-2018, 20:45
A good sunscreen is also clutch in the winter above treeline. I like Dermatone myself.
Under the chin, and the bottom of the nose. And inside the nose.
Just a quick follow up to this...
Definitely won't be using the Makalu's. I ended up buying (all used) the Olympus Mons boots as well as a pair of Scarpa Inverno's and Asolo AFS Expeditions. Any of them should be warm enough for the trip, I just need to decide for sure which fit me the best and sell the others.
Also grabbed a TNF Ventrix (similar to Nano Air) active layer and a few outer parkas to choose from (Mammut Ambler and Feathered Friends Frontpoint).
On the sleeping bag front, I'm leaning towards using the Snowbunting and carrying my Summerlite as an overquilt. If the weather looks like it's going to be significantly colder than I can push with that, I'll still rent.
I found a set of MSR Lightning Ascent snowshoes and BD Sabretooth crampons. Also replacing my Whisperlite with a Dragonfly since the price was right. Thankfully all of this gear has been used or very reasonably priced, so I can sell whatever I don't need and keep total cost pretty reasonable.
Slo-go'en
11-14-2018, 16:42
It was 12 degrees this morning when I woke up. Wind chill on Washington was -50. Tonight it's going below zero. Oh yeah, we got more snow yesterday and even more coming tomorrow. Yesterdays storm was quite slushy here in the valley and set up like concreate with the deep freeze. A
nd it's not even Thanksgiving yet. Feels more like February. This winter could end up being a really cold one.
This might get interesting.
trailmercury
11-15-2018, 17:25
Just a quick follow up to this...
Definitely won't be using the Makalu's. I ended up buying (all used) the Olympus Mons boots as well as a pair of Scarpa Inverno's and Asolo AFS Expeditions. Any of them should be warm enough for the trip, I just need to decide for sure which fit me the best and sell the others.
Also grabbed a TNF Ventrix (similar to Nano Air) active layer and a few outer parkas to choose from (Mammut Ambler and Feathered Friends Frontpoint).
On the sleeping bag front, I'm leaning towards using the Snowbunting and carrying my Summerlite as an overquilt. If the weather looks like it's going to be significantly colder than I can push with that, I'll still rent.
I found a set of MSR Lightning Ascent snowshoes and BD Sabretooth crampons. Also replacing my Whisperlite with a Dragonfly since the price was right. Thankfully all of this gear has been used or very reasonably priced, so I can sell whatever I don't need and keep total cost pretty reasonable.
If I may ask, where are you acquiring all this excellent uses gear?
All over the place. Here, Facebook marketplace, Mountain Project, and Gear Trade primarily.
Tipi Walter
11-15-2018, 17:32
it's not even Thanksgiving yet. Feels more like February. This winter could end up being a really cold one.
Here in the Southeast we'll probably get several so-called Polar Vortexes---or whatever they call them. Back in January 1985 the mountains of TN and NC got hit with the Arctic Outbreak---with temps in Boone NC at -30F and Knoxville got -20F. I remember it well since I was living outside at the time and had to backpack into Boone and sleep in a Baptist church under the pews for a couple nights.
peakbagger
11-15-2018, 20:05
I was out today and it was full winter conditions. I was just doing a low elevation hike. Started out about 4 degrees above zero and at best made it to 20 F. We wore microspikes most of the day and carried snowshoes and got real close to using them. I had to use toe warmers and some point had to switch over to double mittens. Its supposed to warm up a bit this weekend but the forecast it currently 8 to 10 inches of snow tonight.
Slo-go'en
11-16-2018, 10:58
At least todays snow is powder and is starting to pile up. Anyone coming up here to peak bag this weekend better bring snowshoes. Haven't seen this much snow, this early in the season in a long time.
At least todays snow is powder and is starting to pile up. Anyone coming up here to peak bag this weekend better bring snowshoes. Haven't seen this much snow, this early in the season in a long time.
Maybe the glaciers will slow down their retreat.
Wayne
Feral Bill
11-16-2018, 11:59
Maybe the glaciers will slow down their retreat.
Wayne
I'm pretty sure glaciers in New England won't be slowing their retreat. :rolleyes:
Looks like the Frontpoint parka is a keeper.
44105
Edit - accidentally said 'Rock and Ice' parka the first time. It's not -that- burly.
peakbagger
11-21-2018, 10:35
FYI, Early Dragonfly's had a plastic pump body that has a weak spot. The pump plunger is held in by two locking tabs and the tabs would break off. The stove was still usable but a major PITA to pump. They came out with newer model pump that was beefed up in this area. Just inspect these tabs carefully for cracks if you have the old style. Great stoves for winter expect to the noise. About the loudest darn stove every built.
Agreed re the noise. About fifteen years ago I had an XGK that disappeared in a move. I remember that stove being fairly loud, but not like this. It's an absolute blowtorch.
As to the pump - I'm pretty confident this is the new design?
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sethd513
11-21-2018, 13:31
I’d rather have a heavy bag and to much gear and not make my mark 10 times then risk getting caught with to little and not coming home. I went plastic boots last year and it’s one of the best things I did.
Also I use a vbl suit not bag liner. I don’t even bring extra cloths anymore. I carry the suit and after camp is set up I am dry. Now I strip down and put the vbl suit on and put my base layer over it. Then my soft shell pants and coat then down pants and coat. This way I can have all my cloths on inside my bag and get warmth from everything. Also keeps my cloths and bag dry. Any down inside vbl liner or suit will soak out.
Bread bags on your feet under your socks is the way to go Too
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Where did you get the VB suit? I've been planning to experiment with making one, but if there's an inexpensive option I'm interested. Most of the things I found were $50+ each for a shirt and pants. Would much rather go that route for all the reasons you stated versus the liner.
sethd513
11-21-2018, 14:53
https://www.warmlite.com/
They use to be located in nh but sold to a family member that moved them out to Colorado. Yes prices went up but quality has staid the same and they are very helpful.
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T.S.Kobzol
11-21-2018, 15:16
I got the same thing. It looks like crap but has worked well on frigid nights [emoji16]
So my liner is actually just their VB fuzzy fabric that I taped together to create a sack.
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Sounds good, glad to hear two recommendations for Stephenson's. Thanks again.
sethd513
11-21-2018, 15:32
I got the same thing. It looks like crap but has worked well on frigid nights [emoji16]
So my liner is actually just their VB fuzzy fabric that I taped together to create a sack.
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Yea you look wicked goofy but it’s really comfortable and does it’s job.
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Do you find yourself using the vb suit during the day at all or just in the bag?
Tipi Walter
11-21-2018, 16:52
Looks like the Frontpoint parka is a keeper.
44105
Edit - accidentally said 'Rock and Ice' parka the first time. It's not -that- burly.
Yeah, the Rock and Ice parka has 20.5 ozs of goose down fill by weight. THAT'S A BUNCH!
It also looks like the Frontpoint jacket has been discontinued. It came with 13ozs of down fill---still beefy.
My FF parka is called the Icefall and is made out of eVent with about 15.3 ozs of down by weight. That too is alot. Unfortunately it's been discontinued too, and replaced by the Khumba parka with 13.3 oz of down---not quite enough if I had to do it over again.
Here's me in my FF Icefall parka atop 5,000 foot Whiggs Meadow on the BMT---
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/15-Days-with-a-Red-Hilleberg/i-xtBQ3fS/0/6720d02a/L/TRIP%20105%20087-L.jpg
Slo-go'en
11-21-2018, 18:00
So, the sun was shinning this morning and it looked like it was clearing up, so I went and shoveled the driveway. Again. But it was only a couple of inches.
Then about 2:30PM, I noticed it was getting really dark, so I turned around and looked out the window - to see a white out! Couldn't see more then 10 feet. And the temperature started to drop. It had creeped up to 35, but it started to drop quickly when the snow scowl started. The white out lasted for about an hour and the temperature dropped 15 degrees. Although not as intense as it first was, it's still snowing.
Anyway, this goes to show how quick the weather can change around here from not so bad to life threating in a matter of minutes.
sethd513
11-21-2018, 18:55
Do you find yourself using the vb suit during the day at all or just in the bag?
Only In the bag. I tried hiking in it once when I first got it and by morning my quilts were soaked shoes were an ice block by morning. It was an epic fail and I learned. In a Situation that was life threatening I think it would help warm a person up faster then not. Maybe you could hike in it if you weren’t planning on moving or exerting energy. I haven’t had the desire or time to try it out again hiking in it.
I can say though, sleeping In a bivy with this suit on vs not, there is about 75% less condensation and your bag gets no moisture in it. If you breath into you bag or bivy it will get damp but if you can vent properly the suit keeps all moisture out of your down.
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sethd513
11-21-2018, 18:57
And I’m giving you those condensation comparisons from when I was using the outdoor research helium bivy which is 2.5 layer pertex. So you put that set up into an event bivy and the only condensation is on the bathtub and minimal.
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T.S.Kobzol
11-21-2018, 19:58
It's supposed to be teens at best tomorrow. Woo-hoo! [emoji106]
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I'm pretty sure glaciers in New England won't be slowing their retreat. :rolleyes:
Next time I’ll include LAT & LONG of the glaciers I had in mind.
The forecast for record low high temperatures on Thanksgiving Day in the Northeast is interesting.
Happy Thanksgiving Y’all!
Wayne
peakbagger
11-22-2018, 07:20
6 Am Thanksgiving day on top of Mt Washington, -20 F air temp, - 65 F wind chill. 77 MPH wind speed gusting to 84 MPH.
I think Dirty Harry in Magnum Force had the right observation for hiking on day like today
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0
Slo-go'en
11-22-2018, 10:23
Only dropped to -3 at my house, now a balmy 4 :) Time to bundle up and shovel the driveway again and hope my car starts so I can go to Thanksgiving dinner...
6 Am Thanksgiving day on top of Mt Washington, -20 F air temp, - 65 F wind chill. 77 MPH wind speed gusting to 84 MPH.
I think Dirty Harry in Magnum Force had the right observation for hiking on day like today
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0
Followed by:
“you've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?”
Happy Thanksgiving Y’all!
Be warm. Be safe.
Wayne
T.S.Kobzol
11-23-2018, 13:11
I got lucky. [emoji846][emoji106]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181123/aa1e901501102b29f1e88e928004ba45.jpg
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Slo-go'en
11-23-2018, 19:42
Yep, looks like winter. Fair number of cars at the Valley Way parking lot this afternoon. I imagine the trail is well packed now. More snow on it's way for early in the week, but will be on the slushy side again. I stopped going out hiking over T-day weekend as it seems to always rain on the way out Sunday, and it looks like it will this year too.
I think I'll still wait a bit before venturing out into the woods.
sethd513
11-23-2018, 23:16
Yea we were up on Madison today. For good weather the wind was howling on the summit. Couldn’t stand up. Glad winter is here. There were 5 people with snowshoes which includes us and 7 bare booting it. Those damn college kids don’t care.
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So far, the weather for next week looks just about perfect. Heading out on Wednesday and I'll be doing three days of avalanche and two days of mountaineering skills from Friday through Tuesday. If all goes well, we'll starting heading south on Valley Way next Wednesday morning.
peakbagger
02-04-2019, 18:45
Lots more snow this time!.
T.S.Kobzol
02-04-2019, 18:52
Supposed to snow Thursday and Fridays I hope.
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Slo-go'en
02-04-2019, 19:52
It seems the January thaw arrived a bit late, with it being in the 40's today and the next few. Just hope it doesn't rain.
I snowshoed up to my water source today and the snow was really soft. Get off a packed trail and it's really nasty. It looks like I have no chance of getting running water again until spring. The last rain storm pulled the pluming right out of the stream bank and I can't find the end to re-attach to. Good thing I'm experienced at lugging buckets of water.
While I was out, I heard a chopper over Mt Adams this afternoon, hope it wasn't a rescue which needed an air lift. But that would be about the only reason they'd be out with thick clouds above 3800 feet.
sethd513
02-06-2019, 06:39
We are suppose to be up there the 15th. I was hoping to go a trip in Friday also but I’m unsure with the rain predicted.
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peakbagger
02-06-2019, 12:23
The thaw and rain probably cut down the snowpack and firmed up the crust. Looks like an icing event on Thursday with a couple of inches of snow.
Slo-go'en
02-06-2019, 13:32
The thaw and rain probably cut down the snowpack and firmed up the crust. Looks like an icing event on Thursday with a couple of inches of snow.
This weather is just plan nuts. It was nice when it used to just snow.
T.S.Kobzol
02-13-2019, 13:08
Saturday at Jackson XC was icy while the Big George was locking fastest winds in decades...I went ice skating on Sunday
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Slo-go'en
02-13-2019, 16:40
I hope CalebJ has put off his traverse for another couple of days. Hard to tell how much it snowed last night, the wind was horrific. One side of my driveway had three feet of snow hard packed into it and the other side had one inch! The winds died down sometime in the morning, but it's been snowing lightly all day. Will probably continue on and off all night, especially above 3000 feet. It will get windy again tonight and tomorrow as this clears out. Then another storm comes in Firday, possibly with rain or frozen rain. That finally clears sometime Saturday. Sunday and Monday are looking decent, but back into single digit temps.
With this being Presidents weekend it will be busy in these here hills. I expect to read about a few rescues this weekend, given the conditions.
Slo-go'en
02-14-2019, 11:28
Weather update:
It snowed all night and we got another 6" from the "flurries". It's now 10 am and it's still lightly snowing, but it's getting windy so it might just be blowing around now. The sun is trying to come out, but it's hard to say if the summits will clear anytime soon. Then the next round of snow comes in early tomorrow afternoon and lingers into Saturday.
This is the problem with planning a Presidential traverse months in advance. The weather never co-operates and you have to sit around for days until it does.
Guess I should suit up and shovel the driveway again.
We made it up to valley way campsite today. Probably won't push much further south tomorrow. Will post more when we get back in a day or two. Weather's good here below treeline but a ton of unbroken steep fresh powder coming up.
Slo-go'en
02-14-2019, 23:09
We made it up to valley way campsite today. Probably won't push much further south tomorrow. Will post more when we get back in a day or two. Weather's good here below treeline but a ton of unbroken steep fresh powder coming up.
If you make it to Gray Knob tomorrow you'll be doing good. The weather will be going quickly to hell by early morning and will be white out conditions by 10am. It won't clear out until well after dark, with strong winds the whole time. You get the full Monty on this trip. Up to 6" of new, wet snow possible by Saturday morning.
I just got back from riding shotgun with a friend of mine grooming one of the local snowmobile trails. There's a lot of snow out in the woods. No doubt your snug in your bag and tent as I write this, looks like a chilly night until the storm gets here.
... I haven't done the whole of it in one go in the winter, but I have spent some significant time above treeline in winter conditions in the presidentials...
I've never found a need for more than really good socks, vapor barrier liners, microspikes trail runners and good gaiters . . .
With all due respect, I hope no one reads this and decides that their trail runners are a good choice for winter hiking in the Presidentials. It sounds like you've done it with success, but if many people did it there would be some cold feet and frostbite. And the OP is talking about a Traverse. Having sufficiently warm footwear during the winter isn't excess weight.
4eyedbuzzard
02-15-2019, 18:35
I'm always amazed at the level of gear people seem to feel the need for in winter. The Presi traverse is a lot of non-technical rough terrain. I haven't done the whole of it in one go in the winter, but I have spent some significant time above treeline in winter conditions in the presidentials. I may well bag it this winter. There is a lot to be said for being prepared for rough weather, but geez, heavy climbing boots and crampons? You just added 30% or more to your travel time and effort. I've never found a need for more than really good socks, vapor barrier liners, microspikes trail runners and good gaiters . . . unless I'm planning on standing around a bunch which I wouldn't plan on doing on a winter Presi traverse. If you're not standing/sitting around belaying and you're not to climbing high angle ice, there is just no call, in my book anyway, for all the extra weight and bulk of technical winter climbing gear. Lighten up. I do like the look of those insulated gaiters though. They'd be a nice extra insulation buffer over my trail runners if the weather and my ability to keep traveling was leading to colder feet than expected.
Good luck. It should be a great adventure!
With all due respect, I hope no one reads this and decides that their trail runners are a good choice for winter hiking in the Presidentials. It sounds like you've done it with success, but if many people did it there would be some cold feet and frostbite. And the OP is talking about a Traverse. Having sufficiently warm footwear during the winter isn't excess weight.
Yeah, a person might get lucky with both a good weather window, warmer than normal temps, and some all-around good luck on footing conditions with only trail runners and microspikes. But conditions in the Whites are way too unpredictable and change too fast. Good weather comes 15 minutes at a time. Get caught in the weather up there with minimal and unsuitable gear and you would be lucky to only suffer being rescued. And that rescue would definitely come with a big bill from NH F&G for reckless behavior.
Quick follow up...
We got to Valley Way trailhead yesterday about 630 am. Took about an hour to shovel our way into the parking lot so we could start. Got to walking around 745 with snow shoes. Not too bad at first but it got progressively worse. As the trail gets steeper we also ran into significantly more fresh deep powder, to the point that we were basically swimming in it to break trail. It ultimately took seven hours to make the three miles to Valley Way tent site. By that time we were all worn out and there was no chance of making it to Gray Knob until long past dark.
We set up a solid base camp there and set off this morning with lighter packs (still carrying emergency supplies plus snowshoes /micro spikes /ice axe /crampons). Deep snow all the way to Madison Hut. From there we switched to micro spikes and trail crampons. The other three had purchased trail crampons for the trip. My micro spikes were no match for the Hillsounds. I stopped to switch over to full crampons in the first few minutes. It took a while but we were able to summit Madison around noon. Made it back to camp around 2pm and packed up for the trip out. The new snow that came in mid day while we were out to Madison obliterated the previous days efforts, so it still took us about three hours for the trip out.
Not the full traverse that we'd hoped for, but under the conditions we were very pleased with how things went.
Feral Bill
02-16-2019, 01:48
Quick follow up...
We got to Valley Way trailhead yesterday about 630 am. Took about an hour to shovel our way into the parking lot so we could start. Got to walking around 745 with snow shoes. Not too bad at first but it got progressively worse. As the trail gets steeper we also ran into significantly more fresh deep powder, to the point that we were basically swimming in it to break trail. It ultimately took seven hours to make the three miles to Valley Way tent site. By that time we were all worn out and there was no chance of making it to Gray Knob until long past dark.
We set up a solid base camp there and set off this morning with lighter packs (still carrying emergency supplies plus snowshoes /micro spikes /ice axe /crampons). Deep snow all the way to Madison Hut. From there we switched to micro spikes and trail crampons. The other three had purchased trail crampons for the trip. My micro spikes were no match for the Hillsounds. I stopped to switch over to full crampons in the first few minutes. It took a while but we were able to summit Madison around noon. Made it back to camp around 2pm and packed up for the trip out. The new snow that came in mid day while we were out to Madison obliterated the previous days efforts, so it still took us about three hours for the trip out.
Not the full traverse that we'd hoped for, but under the conditions we were very pleased with how things went.
Good judgement triumphs over optimism and ambition. Well done. I recall plodding up Valley Way with a friend many years ago, breaking trail the whole way in a wet snowfall Never got to tree line. Next day dawned sunny and beautiful. We turned around. No regrets.
peakbagger
02-16-2019, 06:31
Sounds like you got to see some real winter conditions. If you had fun that is what counts. Hopefully the clouds lifted up enough for some views. The bummer is there is supposed to be a "supermoon" for the next few nights, would have been impressive if you were up high. I expect the folks going up today will appreciate you breaking out the trail.
I expect it was not a day for trail runners ;).
Slo-go'en
02-16-2019, 10:46
The weather definitely wasn't on your side. But then it rarely is this time of year. With the wind which was up there yesterday, it's amazing you manage to summit Madison. At least it was on the warm side.
I must of just missed you. If you noticed fresh tracks starting at the Randolph path about a mile from the road, that was me. There was fresh snow on the trail from the morning, so unless someone else had gone up much earlier in the day I was following your tracks. Someone had even bare booted it up there. I'm sure all those heading up today appreciate your breaking trail.
I looped over to the Air Line trail and by the time I got back to the trail head around 5 PM, a couple of the cars which were there when I arrived were gone. At least one of the cars must have belonged to the skiers who's tracks I followed down the Air Line. Good conditions for the backcountry glade skiers.
Two people bare booting showed up at the tent site while we were away at Madison. It was obvious when we went down that they'd had to take numerous breaks based on giant body outlines in the snow every few tenths of a mile. They even pushed on towards Madison in them right after we got back to camp. No idea whether they were successful, we packed up in an hour or so and didn't see them again.
We did see a lot of tracks as we got to the last mile from the lot. Made things much easier. I definitely underestimated my flotation needs. Was running 25's and kept sliding off the side slopes. Finally borrowed a set of extensions from one of the others in our group and it probably tripled our pace.
You probably were on our tracks if you started before the snow hit yesterday.
Tipi Walter
02-16-2019, 11:34
we also ran into significantly more fresh deep powder, to the point that we were basically swimming in it to break trail. It ultimately took seven hours to make the three miles
.
That's how I described a winter trek I did back in 2010 when a blizzard hit the high ground at 5,000 feet in NC. The snow was 3 feet deep and up to my waist and it took me 3 hours to go 1 mile along a ridgeline with some steep ups and downs.
Going up was mind-boggling difficult because my pack weighed 75 lbs and I was postholing in three stages---one foot down in the snow, more weight applied---sink to two feet---put all weight on my boot---sink the final third foot---repeat with next foot and extract other leg and foot. The steep rocky uphills were comically tormenting and the steep downhills were Swimming Events---whereby I flung myself forwards and gained distance by a controlled collapse. Repeat. Generally speaking, we don't carry snowshoes in North Carolina.
At the end of my ordeal---and I really wanted to cash in my chips and curl up under a tree and go to sleep---Oh and there was no trail whatsoever but I knew the route and the ridge well enough---at the end I reached a south facing trail losing 3,000 feet which took me off the ridge to the low ground were the snow was only 3-6 inches deep at best.
It was this experience which convinced me to carry a Voile snow shovel during my winter trips---so I could dig out a tent spot in the snow and camp where I stood if needed. A snow shovel might not help in breaking camp but it sure helps in setting up the next camp.
Slo-go'en
02-16-2019, 14:41
Two people bare booting showed up at the tent site while we were away at Madison. It was obvious when we went down that they'd had to take numerous breaks based on giant body outlines in the snow every few tenths of a mile. They even pushed on towards Madison in them right after we got back to camp. No idea whether they were successful, we packed up in an hour or so and didn't see them again.
We did see a lot of tracks as we got to the last mile from the lot. Made things much easier. I definitely underestimated my flotation needs. Was running 25's and kept sliding off the side slopes. Finally borrowed a set of extensions from one of the others in our group and it probably tripled our pace.
You probably were on our tracks if you started before the snow hit yesterday.
I couldn't tell if it was just one or two bare booting it. Idiots. I need to put up a sign at the trail head which says "No snowshoes? Go home now". The fresh tracks were mine, I wandered on an off the Valley Way, taking the alternate trail which parallel the Valley Way along the stream.
sethd513
02-18-2019, 06:22
Good call guys. We went out Friday with a newbie and I had big plans of doing a ridgeline. I chuckled when we passed the parking lot for valley way looked pretty snowed in. We were much lower then you still breaking knee to waiste deep snow. We only climbed 1200 feet but that’s ok with the amount of work needed to break trail in those conditions. Hopefully your next attempt will be better views! We had given up and turned around and about 30 minutes later the sun came out and we had blue skies for about 20. That’s how it goes.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
peakbagger
02-18-2019, 08:04
Sunday was the day I was out and the trails were broken out to the point where they could be barebooted. Of course step off to the side and sink 12 to 18 inches. Blue sky no winds and 100 mile visibility.
Slo-go'en
02-18-2019, 10:36
Sunday was the day I was out and the trails were broken out to the point where they could be barebooted. Of course step off to the side and sink 12 to 18 inches. Blue sky no winds and 100 mile visibility.
Yesterday was the day to be up there, I stayed inside all day. I went out Saturday and broke trail in my backyard. That was enough exercise. We may not have Sierra Nevada levels of snow, but for around here it's pretty good. BTW, it's snowing again.
T.S.Kobzol
02-19-2019, 08:50
Good job. Too bad you did not have nsherry61 in front of You he would have just run through the deep snow in his trailrunners and packed it out for ya ;-)
Quick follow up...
We got to Valley Way trailhead yesterday about 630 am. Took about an hour to shovel our way into the parking lot so we could start. Got to walking around 745 with snow shoes. Not too bad at first but it got progressively worse. As the trail gets steeper we also ran into significantly more fresh deep powder, to the point that we were basically swimming in it to break trail. It ultimately took seven hours to make the three miles to Valley Way tent site. By that time we were all worn out and there was no chance of making it to Gray Knob until long past dark.
We set up a solid base camp there and set off this morning with lighter packs (still carrying emergency supplies plus snowshoes /micro spikes /ice axe /crampons). Deep snow all the way to Madison Hut. From there we switched to micro spikes and trail crampons. The other three had purchased trail crampons for the trip. My micro spikes were no match for the Hillsounds. I stopped to switch over to full crampons in the first few minutes. It took a while but we were able to summit Madison around noon. Made it back to camp around 2pm and packed up for the trip out. The new snow that came in mid day while we were out to Madison obliterated the previous days efforts, so it still took us about three hours for the trip out.
Not the full traverse that we'd hoped for, but under the conditions we were very pleased with how things went.