View Full Version : Am I the jerk?
So, a couple of weeks ago, I was at Dolly Sods Wilderness. As I was breaking camp on my first morning, I noticed a couple in their early twenties approaching my campsite. I'll admit, I wasn't paying much attention, but I'm pretty sure they told me that they were volunteering for the Forest Service and they were educating hikers about Leave No Trace, though they showed me no credentials. They asked if they could check out my campsite. I said that's fine, but I'm trying to get packed up before the rain hits. So they followed me back to my campsite and started snooping around. Then they started to ask me about packing out my trash and digging cat holes. Then she asked me if I carry a shovel to bury my poop. I told her no, that I used my hiking pole. By this time, I am thoroughly annoyed, so I asked her if she was the poop police. Failing to grasp my sarcasm, she then explains, again, that she is volunteering to spread the word about LNT. At this point I was pissed so I stopped packing and just stared at them. The guy then commented that he liked my tarp set up, dug around in my fire pit with a stick, told me that my campsite was exceptionally clean, and proclaimed that I appeared to know what I was doing. Apparently my demeanor caused them to move on and they then found a group of five or six hikers that they talked to for over twenty minutes.
So, did they overstep their bounds, or am I the jerk for getting annoyed by this?
So, a couple of weeks ago, I was at Dolly Sods Wilderness. As I was breaking camp on my first morning, I noticed a couple in their early twenties approaching my campsite. I'll admit, I wasn't paying much attention, but I'm pretty sure they told me that they were volunteering for the Forest Service and they were educating hikers about Leave No Trace, though they showed me no credentials. They asked if they could check out my campsite. I said that's fine, but I'm trying to get packed up before the rain hits. So they followed me back to my campsite and started snooping around. Then they started to ask me about packing out my trash and digging cat holes. Then she asked me if I carry a shovel to bury my poop. I told her no, that I used my hiking pole. By this time, I am thoroughly annoyed, so I asked her if she was the poop police. Failing to grasp my sarcasm, she then explains, again, that she is volunteering to spread the word about LNT. At this point I was pissed so I stopped packing and just stared at them. The guy then commented that he liked my tarp set up, dug around in my fire pit with a stick, told me that my campsite was exceptionally clean, and proclaimed that I appeared to know what I was doing. Apparently my demeanor caused them to move on and they then found a group of five or six hikers that they talked to for over twenty minutes.
So, did they overstep their bounds, or am I the jerk for getting annoyed by this?
eager volunteers - they were a little over the top - meh hike on
DownYonder
10-28-2018, 14:34
What exactly was it that they did/said that got you that annoyed? Sounds like you could have been friendly and thanked them for their efforts. I'm leaning towards JERK.
KWColorado
10-28-2018, 14:48
Congrats to the kids for sticking to the msg and deflecting the negativity
soumodeler
10-28-2018, 14:49
I wouldn't appreciate them bothering me in camp either, but I would understand why they were doing so.
Unfortunately, we do need people to educate others about LNT. The amount of trash I find is disturbing...
I don't appreciate anyone snooping thruogh my stuff. I was friendly at first, but felt like they got a little nosey.
I wouldn't appreciate them bothering me in camp either, but I would understand why they were doing so.
I think this is it. I wouldn't have cared if I ran into them on the trail. It bothered me that they came into my camp and started looking around.
You were much kinder then I was. With me they just started with the 10 question pop quiz. At least the cops read you your rights before questioning. At the end of question 2, I said "who are you guys again"?...they said they were trail club ridge-runners...I told them to....... stay away from me.
methodman
10-28-2018, 15:44
I guess I am not a trusting person. I would have been worried about being robbed down the trail primarily. I also don't allow strangers to look thru my stuff. Maybe it is because I am old. Guess that makes me a jerk also. I don't think I would feel like apologizing for anyone without a badge doing what they did.
I wish we had the poop police in the places I hike. Way too much toliet paper laying around. Some of the rangers doing backcountry patrol have to carry gloves and ziplocks to pick it up (Sequoia NP and other areas) which is not what they signed on to do. Don't get me started on what I saw on the JMT last year.
Well I don't have an issue with the questions they asked and many places I've done my business, a hiking pole or rock isn't going to dig into the rocky soil deep enough, but I will assume that isn' t the case where you are. But I wouldn't have invited them into my campsite as I would have be paranoid about them doing something illegal to me or my stuff and would have stated my uncomfort with the situation on that basis and not poop.
FreeGoldRush
10-28-2018, 16:00
Once in the Rockies a group of 6 extremely enthusiastic opinionators lectured me on the importance of not walking on the tundra. This was on Mount Evans. It's fine for people to state their opinion and listen to yours. It crosses the line when they get mad at you because they failed on their mission to influence your thinking. I bury my poop and pack out my trash, but there is bound to be something I've done that someone else finds offensive. You have to avoid the urge to feel responsible for their emotional state in that moment.
It sounds like they were attempting to cordially LNT educate. They even asked if it was OK. They didn't seem like eco douches eco broing you. You didn't sound like a jerk either. Hey, they didn't carry a citation book like NP Rangers or a yard stick like teachers in the past. I did have chalky erasers and pieces of chalk thrown at me when I dozed off in college classes though. :D
Think about it. Where's one of the best classrooms if there's a need to LNT educate? Perhaps, when people are camping or in Nature? As Miner stated there's a very real need to LNT educate in this increasingly person to person - impersonal and person to Nature disconnected world. Don't move any rocks atop nearly any summit these days. Correlated human behaviors are by far the most consistently dangerous aspect of going outdoors. 'Civilization' can be a very unhealthy.
Kittyslayer
10-28-2018, 16:34
My first question for nosy people butting into my business is "do you have a badge?"
Their answer and attitude influence all future interactions. Remember, they intruded upon you so it is up to them to adjust their attitude and approach.
The whole conversation could have went different but you weren't (too much of) a jerk.
Your story reminded me of the Jebus freaks who come up and say, "May I tell you about my Lord and savior?"
I think you handled it well.
There in lies the problem. People assume what they do in Nature, at a CS, at a freshwater site, taking a poop, trampling anywhere, etc is just their business as it doesn't have consequences on others. This attitude contributes to TP lying around, negative bear/human encounters, contaminated drinking water, being disconnected/angrier/further self and tribal absorption....and a general I'll do as I darn well please desensitized outlook.
We can live a life where we're constantly open to learning and applying what we have heard.
Kittyslayer
10-28-2018, 17:13
We can live a life where we're constantly open to learning and applying what we have heard.
Teaching is a skill not everyone is trained or suited for.
SWODaddy
10-28-2018, 17:13
My first question for nosy people butting into my business is "do you have a badge?"
Their answer and attitude influence all future interactions. Remember, they intruded upon you so it is up to them to adjust their attitude and approach.
The whole conversation could have went different but you weren't (too much of) a jerk.
Yep. Frankly, the whole conversation is pretty odd sounding.
SWODaddy
10-28-2018, 17:18
There in lies the problem. People assume what they do in Nature, at a CS, at a freshwater site, taking a poop, trampling anywhere, etc is just their business as it doesn't have consequences on others. This attitude contributes to TP lying around, negative bear/human encounters, contaminated drinking water, being disconnected/angrier/further self and tribal absorption....and a general I'll do as I darn well please desensitized outlook.
We can live a life where we're constantly open to learning and applying what we have heard.
If someone stopped you at a store with your child and asked if they could take a minute to educate you on child upbringing (maybe even check the diaper to make sure there's not a rash), what would you say?
I see this situation no differently. If you see something wrong, say something. Otherwise, MYOB. Noise via useless lectures is pollution, too.
Five Tango
10-28-2018, 18:06
I would have asked them if they would like to see what's in my trash bag,like used TP and food wrappers,used freezer bags etc.That woulda got the job done I bet.
So, did they overstep their bounds, or am I the jerk for getting annoyed by this?
On a good day, I would probably be inclined to cut a volunteer some slack, but I would be rather annoyed with the sponsoring organization.
To start, I would expect that organization to provide some kind of uniform — even if nothing more than a printed T-shirt or windbreaker indicating the organization’s name and the specific program and a name tag.
Further I would expect that organization to train their volunteers to engage in conversations more delicately and present themselves as a resource rather than going into inspector mode.
My guess is that the ATC Ridgerunners do a MUCH better job.
As far as asking permision, doing so is better than not, but as any police officer knows people are not really prepared on how to respond to someone with even a small amount of authority or standing. Some years ago a uniformed ranger “asked” my wife to produce her trash bag as she exited a WMNF trailhead. While otherwise sensible, she complied. Just crazy.
Whoever sent that couple out there did not do a very good job.
gpburdelljr
10-28-2018, 18:06
I don't appreciate anyone snooping thruogh my stuff. I was friendly at first, but felt like they got a little nosey.
From your description they asked you questions, and poked around in the fire pit, but did not snoop through your stuff. Did they actually look through your gear?
They did ask if they could inspect your campsite and you gave them permission, so I don’t see what your problem is. Personally, I would have politely told them I practiced LNT, did not need any information on LNT, and would not have given them permission to look over my campsite. If they didn’t go away after that, then I would be pissed.
If the baby's too loose diaper was leaving a trail of poop or I was attempting to leave baby related soiled trash on a counter I'd feel relieved someone kindly brought it to my attention. Someone else's behavior may be correlated to my own or societies(campers/hikers) behavioral tendencies. None of us live ever in a bubble. I can choose to not be in the habit of being offended. I can nurture an always teachable attitude! ;)
SWO, I assume you've been the recipient of someone else's questionable behavior when in the outdoors? How did you feel? Ever murmur to yourself " people(we!) should know and behave better?" - Not just know what to do but do what we know to do. Ever see exposed human fecal matter in the middle of a trail or CS or not properly disposed - stop and drop pile it high spray it around style? Ever observe someone letting their dog run through or defecate in or immediately adjacent the only water source near a group camping site? Ever come across fire rings with all manner of trash left behind? Ever experience a web of trampled down use trails resulting in erosion, habitat/wildlife/endangered flora loss? What should be done about it?
This link has relevance regardless if unreligious, spiritual or not. https://www.kevinhalloran.net/characteristics-of-a-teachable-spirit/
Rain Man
10-28-2018, 19:20
... they told me that they were volunteering for the Forest Service and they were educating hikers about Leave No Trace.... They asked if they could check out my campsite. I said that's fine.... So, ... am I the jerk for getting annoyed by this?
Yes. (since you asked) Well, not a jerk for getting annoyed perhaps, but for how you elected to use that emotion as an excuse to be a jerk. (BTW, I've been a jerk before.)
Frankly, we need more "poop police" (as you insultingly called this volunteer) and more on-site and real-time LNT education.
The only odd thing in the story is that you agreed they could check your campsite, then got annoyed and gratuitously insulting once they began. I would think that thanking them for doing this thankless (duh!) and much-needed task might have been the appropriate and "jerk-free" posture to express.
Right now I'm mentally wondering what the story would be like from their mouths. Hmmmm.
Lone Wolf
10-28-2018, 19:46
So, did they overstep their bounds, or am I the jerk for getting annoyed by this?
yes, they overstepped. you're right to be annoyed by them. ya don't to the woods to be interrogated. they were out of line
Five Tango
10-28-2018, 20:30
This may be a stupid question.If these "LNT Officials" found anything in the firepit,how do they know whether it belonged to anyone present on the site at the time? And if it did,what can they do about it? I totally get that some people need to be reminded not to litter or burn trash but it would seem reasonable to me that a simple sign or two would be sufficient to achieve that goal.
Right now I'm mentally wondering what the story would be like from their mouths. Hmmmm.
Ha ha, I have been wondering this as well.
I know that I gave them permission to check out my camp site, but in retrospect, I think I was unclear about what they were doing. I think where it went wrong was when dude put his head into my tarp and started looking at my belongings. I thought they were just making sure I wasn't leaving trash laying around but it felt like they were inspecting my gear.
gpburdelljr
10-28-2018, 20:50
yes, they overstepped. you're right to be annoyed by them. ya don't to the woods to be interrogated. they were out of line
They asked if they could look at the campsite, and the OP gave them permission. If the OP said no, and they did it anyway THEN it would be overstepping.
yes, they overstepped. you're right to be annoyed by them. ya don't to the woods to be interrogated. they were out of line
Kinda what I was thinking.
devoidapop
10-28-2018, 20:53
Maybe they overstepped and the OP reacted like a jerk and everything can be forgiven. Sounds like their approach made the OP think about his own practices and his negative reaction may have made them rethink how the present themselves to hikers at a campsite.
...it would seem reasonable to me that a simple sign or two would be sufficient to achieve that goal.
Knowledgable communication of something like suggestions, ethics, rules, requirements, or laws are not always sufficient to achieve a goal. Again, knowing what to do is not the same as doing what you know to do. I solidly place myself in this category.
There are rules involving domestic pets in areas that an increasing number scam their way around. Despite umpteen communications at NP's and other outdoor areas regarding keeping a distance from dangerous wildlife, not having an open fire, or not accessing and wandering around waterfall apexs people still do it sometimes causing their own fatality... and fatalities of others...and destruction that others than are exposed.
Hikingjim
10-28-2018, 21:30
They asked to check out your site, you agreed. I didn't see where you asked them to leave (but I didn't read everything too thoroughly), so I would file it under "a bit annoying but no big deal". I don't think I would have even been annoyed by that encounter.I would have found it a bit amusing.... unless they searched through my gear, then they'd might get whacked with a pole
As one who has been trained to walk the trail (in uniform) and present LNT information to hikers, although I am still somewhat new to it, I can say this doesn't sound like the way we are trained to approach. It is possible they weren't so much inspecting YOUR campsite, but inspecting campsites in general to get a context on how hikers in general are doing. For what it's worth, I don't think you were being a jerk, and I will use this as a personal lesson in how not to approach.
Alligator
10-28-2018, 22:59
They asked first and you agreed. They were there to educate on LNT. Look at the seven principles. They would have to look at your stuff to cover some of them. Plan ahead and prepare, travel and camp on durable surfaces. If someone is going to ask you about LNT practices, garbage and crap are likely going to come up. Minimize campfire impacts, they will check the fire ring. They could have done a better job explaining what they were doing and why more importantly, because they obviously didn't make it clear to you. You on the other hand agreed to them "checking out your campsite". If an exterminator knocks on your door and asks to check for bugs are you going to be surprised if he looks in your closets if you agree?
Slo-go'en
10-28-2018, 23:13
This may be a stupid question.If these "LNT Officials" found anything in the firepit,how do they know whether it belonged to anyone present on the site at the time? And if it did,what can they do about it? I totally get that some people need to be reminded not to litter or burn trash but it would seem reasonable to me that a simple sign or two would be sufficient to achieve that goal.
Sign? People ignore signs.
I suppose if they had checked the site the day before and there was nothing in the fire pit, then came back and found you and trash there the next day, one could conclude you were the one to do so. What could they do about it? Ask for you to clean it up and carry it out, hopefully in a manor which makes you want to do so.
Did they overstep? Hard to say not being there. They don't know you until they chat you up and looked around a bit. But it shouldn't take long to assess your level of experience and if they need to have "the talk" with you or not. I would guess that area is busy enough and has a history of issues to warrant that level of personal interaction.
Slo-go'en
10-28-2018, 23:26
Ha ha, I have been wondering this as well.
I know that I gave them permission to check out my camp site, but in retrospect, I think I was unclear about what they were doing. I think where it went wrong was when dude put his head into my tarp and started looking at my belongings. I thought they were just making sure I wasn't leaving trash laying around but it felt like they were inspecting my gear.
In what manor did he look at your belongings? Pulling stuff out of your pack or looking at what you had laying around? You note that he said "nice trap setup" so I would think he was just curious as to the set up. Although it would be polite to first say "nice tarp setup, mind if I check it out?" Then you go over and explain the set up and you bond and there isn't any conflict.
Traillium
10-28-2018, 23:51
I would have asked them if they would like to see what's in my trash bag,like used TP and food wrappers,used freezer bags etc.That woulda got the job done I bet.
I like this approach!
Traveler
10-29-2018, 07:28
First, it's a pubic park so all kinds of people come to these venues, many of them not well schooled in backpacking overall. The people you discuss identified themselves and asked permission to come into the campsite (though not required it is an etiquette issue to ask), for which permission was granted. Since they made it clear they were promoting LNT issues, which many people remain blissfully ignorant, and they asked questions pertinent to that topic, I don't see the issue.
Sounds like it was a fairly benign visit and short conversation. They observed your campsite and gear as it was being packed. They had a gear related question, complimented you how everything looked, said you looked squared away with respect to tenets of LNT they observed, though by the sound of your recollection it was the discussion of how a trowel would be better than trekking poles for proper cat holes was the aggravation. A valid issue overall, and worth conversation given the poor cat hole practices I see.
If the annoyance was the conversation about the trowel, I'd suggest shrugging that off if you can actually cut roots and hammer through hardpan soil to dig a proper cat hole with a trekking pole (most people cannot unfortunately, leading to a lot of poop around campsites). If not, perhaps it's time to look at that issue more closely.
Outside of that in your description of the few minutes spent with these folks I don't see anything to be annoyed about.
jungleland1972
10-29-2018, 08:19
If they were there to educate, they should have explained leave no trace along with the common issues they see. By asking about your habits, they moved to more of a police role and I would have been annoyed at that as well.
TexasBob
10-29-2018, 09:58
...They did ask if they could inspect your campsite and you gave them permission, so I don’t see what your problem is. ......
Pretty well sums it up as far as I can see.
Five Tango
10-29-2018, 10:31
I just reviewed the 7 principles of LNT.If you were camped in a designated area you're not in violation of anything until you exit and leave trash on the ground or stuff in the firepit.They didn't have any business poking around under your tarp either.And you were pretty considerate to others by making an initial effort to cooperate with them.If they did not have any visible identification then they really did not have any business approaching you in some sort of authoritative capacity.
Sadly,there will always be trash in the back country because there will always be an element of society who thinks the rules apply to everyone but them.If you don't believe it,just move into a Home Owners Association.....
People know better than to litter and make a mess out there but there will always be those who abuse the rules and the rest of us in the process.
They asked first and you agreed. They were there to educate on LNT. Look at the seven principles. They would have to look at your stuff to cover some of them. Plan ahead and prepare, travel and camp on durable surfaces. If someone is going to ask you about LNT practices, garbage and crap are likely going to come up. Minimize campfire impacts, they will check the fire ring. They could have done a better job explaining what they were doing and why more importantly, because they obviously didn't make it clear to you. You on the other hand agreed to them "checking out your campsite". If an exterminator knocks on your door and asks to check for bugs are you going to be surprised if he looks in your closets if you agree?
If the OP knew the LNT Principles he would have anticipated them doing what they did. This begs questions to the OP: Do you know and apply the LNT Principles? Can you understand why LNT Principles are taught? Would you appreciate others applying LNT ethics? Do you suppose others will appreciate you applying LNT ethics. That's something positive to take away from the experience. It's a shift in attitude from being offended, annoyed, irritated, alienating, and complaining which breeds bitterness, constant defensiveness, resentment, loss of self control, and strife to humility, teachability, gratitude, joy, peace, forbearance, and a greater whole. Self deprecation can be sobering. When taken too far it can lead to self loathing which is sabotaging too. Move forward.
I used to experience situations like this much more often as someone or Nature attempted to educate and as a LNT educator. :)
With more experiences in Nature the connection to it became stronger. So did my responsibility to it. Strangely the connections and depth of responsibility to myself and the rest of humanity also grew. I believe that is the intent of LNT ethics. It may be one of the bigger pictures that is worth recognizing. ;)
thruseeker
10-29-2018, 13:18
You gave people with no ID permission to search your campsite. G_d only knows who they were. Radioing their buddies about expensive gear coming their way? Who knows. Don't give up your constitutional rights because you are camping on public land.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
...I know that I gave them permission to check out my camp site, but in retrospect, I think I was unclear about what they were doing. I think where it went wrong was when dude put his head into my tarp and started looking at my belongings. I thought they were just making sure I wasn't leaving trash laying around but it felt like they were inspecting my gear.
Yeah, the whole thing sounds fishy to me and I don't blame your surly behavior at all. Sounds to me like you were all too willing to help at first, but they've got NO reason to stick their snout in your stuff. And as Five Tango pointed out, there are other things they could do to be less intrusive and even more informative in a constructive way, but there also should be more information from them regarding their intent and in detail what they wanted to do and look for. I would be very on guard if someone came to me with no identification of affiliation like that without a real good in depth explanation of what they are doing and why. A little too easy to say on behalf of LNT, and sounds fishy for that reason. At best, maybe some inexperienced folks looking to help out but given poor support on how to do it. But when in the woods, its hard not to be on alert for those who might not have the best interests.
There's a right way and a wrong way to go about this if they were on the up and up about LNT. Not sure I know what the right way is, but clearly this ain't it. Maybe this crew needed to run into someone like you to help them think a little more about what they were doing.
perdidochas
10-29-2018, 15:00
So, a couple of weeks ago, I was at Dolly Sods Wilderness. As I was breaking camp on my first morning, I noticed a couple in their early twenties approaching my campsite. I'll admit, I wasn't paying much attention, but I'm pretty sure they told me that they were volunteering for the Forest Service and they were educating hikers about Leave No Trace, though they showed me no credentials. They asked if they could check out my campsite. I said that's fine, but I'm trying to get packed up before the rain hits. So they followed me back to my campsite and started snooping around. Then they started to ask me about packing out my trash and digging cat holes. Then she asked me if I carry a shovel to bury my poop. I told her no, that I used my hiking pole. By this time, I am thoroughly annoyed, so I asked her if she was the poop police. Failing to grasp my sarcasm, she then explains, again, that she is volunteering to spread the word about LNT. At this point I was pissed so I stopped packing and just stared at them. The guy then commented that he liked my tarp set up, dug around in my fire pit with a stick, told me that my campsite was exceptionally clean, and proclaimed that I appeared to know what I was doing. Apparently my demeanor caused them to move on and they then found a group of five or six hikers that they talked to for over twenty minutes.
So, did they overstep their bounds, or am I the jerk for getting annoyed by this?
They meant well. I think being annoyed is a normal reaction though.
SWODaddy
10-29-2018, 17:22
If the baby's too loose diaper was leaving a trail of poop or I was attempting to leave baby related soiled trash on a counter I'd feel relieved someone kindly brought it to my attention. Someone else's behavior may be correlated to my own or societies(campers/hikers) behavioral tendencies. None of us live ever in a bubble. I can choose to not be in the habit of being offended. I can nurture an always teachable attitude! ;)
SWO, I assume you've been the recipient of someone else's questionable behavior when in the outdoors? How did you feel? Ever murmur to yourself " people(we!) should know and behave better?" - Not just know what to do but do what we know to do. Ever see exposed human fecal matter in the middle of a trail or CS or not properly disposed - stop and drop pile it high spray it around style? Ever observe someone letting their dog run through or defecate in or immediately adjacent the only water source near a group camping site? Ever come across fire rings with all manner of trash left behind? Ever experience a web of trampled down use trails resulting in erosion, habitat/wildlife/endangered flora loss? What should be done about it?
This link has relevance regardless if unreligious, spiritual or not. https://www.kevinhalloran.net/characteristics-of-a-teachable-spirit/
Those are all examples of bad behavior in progress, though. If I'm reading the original poster's description correctly, this was (for lack of a better word) a "search" or "interrogation" without cause.
SWODaddy
10-29-2018, 17:26
I'd hope we would all agree this couples' time would have been better spent sitting at the trail head (maybe providing trash bags or showing how a proper cat hole can be dug with a tent stake or hiking pole). If someone isn't interested, quizzing them in camp impromptly isn't going to persuade them.
You gave people with no ID permission to search your campsite. G_d only knows who they were. Radioing their buddies about expensive gear coming their way? Who knows. Don't give up your constitutional rights because you are camping on public land.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Yeah watch out for those tech savvy organized tribe of Dolly Sod Gear bandits on the loose. Wonder if they have IR? :rolleyes:
Those are all examples of bad behavior in progress, though. If I'm reading the original poster's description correctly, this was (for lack of a better word) a "search" or "interrogation" without cause.
We have different ways of agreeably describing what happened based on what was shared. Educating or teaching or simply communicating often does involve a give and take including inquiry among participants. Knowing one's audience is fundamental to communicating. How does a teacher get to know their audience unless inquiry occurs? Should that be deemed a search or interrogation? :rolleyes: It seems like simple LNT educator inquiry that was invited.
I don't have issue with someone attempting to cordially asking questions after stating their intent or coming to my camp after they asked if it was OK and I invited them. I don't see where anyone pushed themselves on anyone given what was shared. Maybe it's the outdoors environment or culture where some feel threatened being approached? Maybe, it involves push back against the surveillance state? Maybe, interpersonal real physical person to physical person interaction is becoming a lost social skill - a reason for feeling threatened when confronted in the flesh? OR, MAYBE it's were so self absorbed, self concerned, easily offended and filled with hubris? This comes from someone who can get very uppity about protecting his privacy.
If you think this event was pushy I find leaving a pile of improperly undisposed of human excrement with a soiled TP flower at a CS behind and left over Spaghetti O's and vienna sausage cans and in fire rings and mangled foilage and human contaminated water much more pushy...in what is supposed to be Dolly Sods Wilderness. Has everyone posting been to DS WA established CS's during high use periods like fall? I have. These are just some of the things experienced that can be addressed by knowing and applying LNT ethics.
Leave no trace is not just about unburned trash in a fire pit.
The 7 principles also tell us we should minimize our impact on the experience of others by doing things like taking breaks away from trail and other visitors, and letting nature sounds prevail.
While some might well conclude the couple’s intrusion well intended and a trace worth leaving, I wonder if they even considered for a second that they were leaving one.
So, a couple of weeks ago, I was at Dolly Sods Wilderness. As I was breaking camp on my first morning, I noticed a couple in their early twenties approaching my campsite. I'll admit, I wasn't paying much attention, but I'm pretty sure they told me that they were volunteering for the Forest Service and they were educating hikers about Leave No Trace, though they showed me no credentials. They asked if they could check out my campsite. I said that's fine, but I'm trying to get packed up before the rain hits. So they followed me back to my campsite and started snooping around. Then they started to ask me about packing out my trash and digging cat holes. Then she asked me if I carry a shovel to bury my poop. I told her no, that I used my hiking pole. By this time, I am thoroughly annoyed, so I asked her if she was the poop police. Failing to grasp my sarcasm, she then explains, again, that she is volunteering to spread the word about LNT. At this point I was pissed so I stopped packing and just stared at them. The guy then commented that he liked my tarp set up, dug around in my fire pit with a stick, told me that my campsite was exceptionally clean, and proclaimed that I appeared to know what I was doing. Apparently my demeanor caused them to move on and they then found a group of five or six hikers that they talked to for over twenty minutes.
So, did they overstep their bounds, or am I the jerk for getting annoyed by this?
You did not handle that very well at all. Asking if they are "Poop Police" and then just starring at them. Not a good way to handle that situation.
They did not overstep their bounds. You invited them in, you were the host, you should have been polite even though you were packing. You had 20 minutes to watch them talk to your neighbors when you should have been just packing to get done before it rained.
You'll do better next time ;-)
You asked! :-)
Glad you are still employed and had some trail time. :-)
-Dan
Time Zone
10-29-2018, 19:27
It's one thing to promote LNT awareness. It's another to rummage around one's stuff. "Checking out" one's campsite does not strike me as asking for anything but observing what is in plain sight - and it should have been limited to that.
I'd also aver that anyone systematically going around engaging all those they encounter on LNT awareness ought to be doing so in some official capacity under the relevant land management entity, and produce evidence of such. Otherwise they themselves are leaving a trace ... of annoyance in those into whose hikes they have condescendingly stuck their noses. JMO.
Leave no trace is not just about unburned trash in a fire pit.
The 7 principles also tell us we should minimize our impact on the experience of others by doing things like taking breaks away from trail and other visitors, and letting nature sounds prevail.
While some might well conclude the couple’s intrusion well intended and a trace worth leaving, I wonder if they even considered for a second that they were leaving one.
I think they considered that which is why they said first who they were, what they were doing(LNT educating), and then ASKED if it was OK to go to the OP's CS. The OP said yes. He seemed not to have any issue with initially saying yes. Seems like the classroom was his CS...No? Is the OP's CS not the best hands on immediate classroom for LNT educating? If the OP was aware of LNT ethics he would have anticipated their further involvement. This also was likely perceived by the LNT educators - the OP was not aware of LNT ethics...which is why this went this far.
Again, if I invite someone into my house into my living room and they then comment about a picture on the wall after looking at it is that too much of a search, an intrusion? I invited it.
Time Zone
10-29-2018, 19:55
Again, if I invite someone into my house into my living room and they then comment about a picture on the wall after looking at it is that too much of a search, an intrusion? I invited it.
How about if a realtor pulls up on the street in front of your house and asks if they can take a picture of it? You say, OK, and they stand there in the street, and take a picture of your house. You go back inside and make yourself a sandwich. Then they let themselves in and next thing you know they're in the kitchen with you, asking how long you left out the mayonnaise, and say, "I guess you know what you're doing."
Not the most precise analogy, but I think a bit more so than the idea that the OP invited the volunteers into his living room. Again, JMO.
Emerson Bigills
10-29-2018, 20:00
I think your agreement initially suggests you were an advocate of LNT. Their limited description of exactly what to expect and the somewhat intrusive manner in which you describe their actions, makes me feel that your reaction was fine. People representing govt agencies on public property should be trained to clearly state their purpose or identify themselves clearly by uniform or verbal description. I recently went out west and had half a dozen interations with Rangers and Forest Service Personnel. They were all very impressive and in several cases asked for permits and talked about LNT principals. I looked forward to these interactions. It's often not what you do, but how you do it.
I have no problem with how you interacted.
By the way, as for needing a trowel for a cathole, it depends on where you are. On the recent trip out west, the trowel was absolutely necessary because of the terrain, however for the 140 days I spent on the AT last year, I never had to dig a single hole. I sent my trowel home after the Smokies. If necessary I could have used sticks and trekking poles.
Traffic Jam
10-29-2018, 20:08
Curmudgeons!
If you have to ask random people if you were a jerk, you were probably a jerk. (I say that in the nicest way). :)
Those kids could be at home sitting in front of a computer or playing video games. Give em a little slack.
thruseeker
10-29-2018, 20:12
Yeah watch out for those tech savvy organized tribe of Dolly Sod Gear bandits on the loose. Wonder if they have IR? :rolleyes:Sarcastically said the ignorant.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
devoidapop
10-29-2018, 20:32
I'd like to see a video of someone digging one of these legendary cat holes with their poles, or boot heel, or a mcflurry spoon.
Funny...I was on a canoe trip with my son a few months ago when, I hear from behind me, in a heavily intoxicated voice, a man yelling for people to wait! "I want to tell you about my Lord and savior, I'm a pastor." All the while his friends were laughing at him. He didn't seem legit to me but, it sure made me chuckle.
Your story reminded me of the Jebus freaks who come up and say, "May I tell you about my Lord and savior?"
I think you handled it well.
Traffic Jam
10-29-2018, 21:47
I'd like to see a video of someone digging one of these legendary cat holes with their poles, or boot heel, or a mcflurry spoon.
I use a tent stake.
How about if a realtor pulls up on the street in front of your house and asks if they can take a picture of it? You say, OK, and they stand there in the street, and take a picture of your house. You go back inside and make yourself a sandwich. Then they let themselves in and next thing you know they're in the kitchen with you, asking how long you left out the mayonnaise, and say, "I guess you know what you're doing."
Not the most precise analogy, but I think a bit more so than the idea that the OP invited the volunteers into his living room. Again, JMO.
It would all depend on what kind of sandwich it was. ;)
Funny...I was on a canoe trip with my son a few months ago when, I hear from behind me, in a heavily intoxicated voice, a man yelling for people to wait! "I want to tell you about my Lord and savior, I'm a pastor." All the while his friends were laughing at him. He didn't seem legit to me but, it sure made me chuckle.
I wonder if he's any relation to my previous neighbor who kept introducing herself as Reverend Rose after taking Ambien.
Time Zone
10-29-2018, 22:56
I hear from behind me, in a heavily intoxicated voice, a man yelling for people to wait! "I want to tell you about my Lord ...
Lord Calvert, perhaps?
I get it though Pony. I wouldn't want an escalating grab for my attention for a LNT Pow wow if I was stressing to pack up to beat the approaching rain. LOL. It would have been drip drip pit pat pat. I gotta go. They usually hand you a LNT card. I'd have thanked them and been on my way. ;)
Ha ha, I have been wondering this as well.
I know that I gave them permission to check out my camp site, but in retrospect, I think I was unclear about what they were doing. I think where it went wrong was when dude put his head into my tarp and started looking at my belongings. I thought they were just making sure I wasn't leaving trash laying around but it felt like they were inspecting my gear.
As said they probably were inspecting. BUT I operate under the etiquette one should always ask first to look under your tarp, inside your tent, unzip a hammock fly, pick up anything, touch any of your gear, etc. And, I behave likewise. ;)
TIP: Learn the LNT Principles. Apply them. Be conscientious of others. Good intentions shouldn't excuse questionable judgement. Feeling people out and being acutely aware of situations with greater sensitivity would have gone a long way for everyone involved.
BTW, I don't know if this applies in every state but legally an enclosed tent or hammock is a dwelling afforded the same privacy rights as those that live in houses. If one steals from inside your tent or under your tarp that can be burglary...of a dwelling.
I can only imagine the uproar if the AMC sent volunteers to inspect people’s campsites.
Especially if they wore nothing to identify themselves and the organization they were representing.
As said they probably were inspecting. BUT I operate under the etiquette one should always ask first to look under your tarp, inside your tent, unzip a hammock fly, pick up anything, touch any of your gear, etc.
If there are any law enforcement officers on this list, I bet they would tell you even guilty people consent to searches all the time—- simply because of the way they asked.
Just human nature.
It’s almost a given that.a hiker would allow two self-identified volunteers into their camp if asked, right?
The questions should not be whether the inspectors asked, though, but rather why that boundary was not respected in the first place.
cmoulder
10-30-2018, 06:58
Should've just said, Sorry, No, I'd love to help out but I want to get packed before the rain hits. Sorry, No is a polite and quick way out of a lot of situations.
SWODaddy
10-30-2018, 08:06
Yeah watch out for those tech savvy organized tribe of Dolly Sod Gear bandits on the loose. Wonder if they have IR? :rolleyes:
Have you been there? A dismembered (IIRC) corpse was found there a few years ago and I've read multiple reports of vehicles broken into. It's one of the more sketchy places in the mid Atlantic area hike, though I've never had any problems myself.
SWODaddy
10-30-2018, 08:29
We have different ways of agreeably describing what happened based on what was shared. Educating or teaching or simply communicating often does involve a give and take including inquiry among participants. Knowing one's audience is fundamental to communicating. How does a teacher get to know their audience unless inquiry occurs? Should that be deemed a search or interrogation? :rolleyes: It seems like simple LNT educator inquiry that was invited.
I don't have issue with someone attempting to cordially asking questions after stating their intent or coming to my camp after they asked if it was OK and I invited them. I don't see where anyone pushed themselves on anyone given what was shared. Maybe it's the outdoors environment or culture where some feel threatened being approached? Maybe, it involves push back against the surveillance state? Maybe, interpersonal real physical person to physical person interaction is becoming a lost social skill - a reason for feeling threatened when confronted in the flesh? OR, MAYBE it's were so self absorbed, self concerned, easily offended and filled with hubris? This comes from someone who can get very uppity about protecting his privacy.
If you think this event was pushy I find leaving a pile of improperly undisposed of human excrement with a soiled TP flower at a CS behind and left over Spaghetti O's and vienna sausage cans and in fire rings and mangled foilage and human contaminated water much more pushy...in what is supposed to be Dolly Sods Wilderness. Has everyone posting been to DS WA established CS's during high use periods like fall? I have. These are just some of the things experienced that can be addressed by knowing and applying LNT ethics.
Again, you fall back to non-existent greivances. OP didn't leave TP and "spaghetti O's". If you see someone doing something wrong, feel free to kindly point it out. If not, MYOB. This board has enough of it's own folks who like to give unsolicited advice. HYOH.
greenpete
10-30-2018, 12:17
I don't think you were a "jerk," although sarcasm is never good. Sounds like they wanted to check the campsite for cleanliness, not necessarily if you were violating LNT. If you were, I'm sure they would have been polite about educating you, as the man sounded friendly and complimentary. Also, unlike what other commenters have attributed, they didn't handle your gear, they just poked in your fire ring...correct?
The AT is getting more and more crowded, and more hikers means more indifference and ignorance. Many hikers, unfortunately, have no compunction about leaving trash behind. It's good to hear there are volunteers who are spreading the gospel of LNT, which for many is the preferable alternative to government restrictions. That being said, you weren't a jerk, and the fact you posted this shows that you don't want to be one, so I wouldn't worry about it.
coach lou
10-30-2018, 12:56
I think by your side of the story, the one was a little overzealous about her new 'save the planet' job, which we all were in our youth. Her co-volunteer recognized your annoyance and level of experience by then and moved on. People skilz have to be developed.
Feral Bill
10-30-2018, 13:45
I think by your side of the story, the one was a little overzealous about her new 'save the planet' job, which we all were in our youth. Her co-volunteer recognized your annoyance and level of experience by then and moved on. People skilz have to be developed. As do spelling skills. :) (sorry, I couldn't resist)
coach lou
10-30-2018, 14:16
as do spelling skills. :) (sorry, i couldn't resist)
:d..................!
If a couple of young guys ride up to your house on bicycles, wearing dress shirts with black ties and carrying pamphlets proclaiming some good news they'd like to share with you, and the knock on your door catches you off guard so you invite them in for a few minutes, you shouldn't be surprised if they start asking questions about your spiritual beliefs.
That being said, once you've realized your mistake, you're entitled to be as much (or as little) of a jerk as you deem necessary to put an end to it. If you're wondering if you were a jerk, it's because your conscience is telling you that you were, so you probably were. But ultimately it doesn't matter, because you're allowed to be. I'm sure your family and friends still like you haha.
orthofingers
10-30-2018, 15:24
So, a couple of weeks ago, I was at Dolly Sods Wilderness. As I was breaking camp on my first morning, I noticed a couple in their early twenties approaching my campsite. I'll admit, I wasn't paying much attention, but I'm pretty sure they told me that they were volunteering for the Forest Service and they were educating hikers about Leave No Trace, though they showed me no credentials. They asked if they could check out my campsite. I said that's fine, but I'm trying to get packed up before the rain hits. So they followed me back to my campsite and started snooping around. Then they started to ask me about packing out my trash and digging cat holes. Then she asked me if I carry a shovel to bury my poop. I told her no, that I used my hiking pole. By this time, I am thoroughly annoyed, so I asked her if she was the poop police. Failing to grasp my sarcasm, she then explains, again, that she is volunteering to spread the word about LNT. At this point I was pissed so I stopped packing and just stared at them. The guy then commented that he liked my tarp set up, dug around in my fire pit with a stick, told me that my campsite was exceptionally clean, and proclaimed that I appeared to know what I was doing. Apparently my demeanor caused them to move on and they then found a group of five or six hikers that they talked to for over twenty minutes.
So, did they overstep their bounds, or am I the jerk for getting annoyed by this?
Several years ago, I had a similar experience in New Hampshire. A young woman was trying to educate us (my wife and I) on everything in the vicinity of her tenting area. She drove us nuts. I think it goes back to the old idea that, "it's not what you say but how you say it."
The content of her comments were quite reasonable but the way she delivered them made us feel that we were being scolded every time she opened her mouth. We couldn't pack up soon enough the following morning.
Night Train
10-30-2018, 16:02
They asked...you consented. We, as individuals, choose how we react.
gpburdelljr
10-30-2018, 16:13
All he had to do was say “No”. If he is irritated, he should be irritated at himself for saying “Yes”.
LittleTim
10-30-2018, 22:09
If a couple of young guys ride up to your house on bicycles, wearing dress shirts with black ties and carrying pamphlets proclaiming some good news they'd like to share with you, and the knock on your door catches you off guard so you invite them in for a few minutes, you shouldn't be surprised if they start asking questions about your spiritual beliefs.
That being said, once you've realized your mistake, you're entitled to be as much (or as little) of a jerk as you deem necessary to put an end to it. If you're wondering if you were a jerk, it's because your conscience is telling you that you were, so you probably were. But ultimately it doesn't matter, because you're allowed to be. I'm sure your family and friends still like you haha.
That's the post that hits the nail on the head IMO.
Having not even been packed up and had two individuals regardless of age/physical ability want to invite themselves into what I've deemed my personal space is a no go from the beginning. But my personal safety radar is turned up to 11 when I'm out on the trail as is everyone's that I encounter. Being a large framed male leads to many hi-and-bye interactions with single traveling individuals, whereas groups of two or more will be significantly more willing to chat for a few seconds with me. Human nature, interestingly keeping self preservation a high priority.
A time and place for everything, even being a jerk. Don't sweat it.
Five Tango
10-31-2018, 09:10
:banana
If a couple of young guys ride up to your house on bicycles, wearing dress shirts with black ties and carrying pamphlets proclaiming some good news they'd like to share with you, and the knock on your door catches you off guard so you invite them in for a few minutes, you shouldn't be surprised if they start asking questions about your spiritual beliefs.
That being said, once you've realized your mistake, you're entitled to be as much (or as little) of a jerk as you deem necessary to put an end to it. If you're wondering if you were a jerk, it's because your conscience is telling you that you were, so you probably were. But ultimately it doesn't matter, because you're allowed to be. I'm sure your family and friends still like you haha.
Hey,I know those guys!My brother and I rode all night on a commercial overseas flight with them and they never shut up.Apparently,they get around.......
It's obvious OP was taken off guard by the initial request.I'm glad this incident was shared on WB so anyone else will be ready if queried by the trash and poop police.
They asked...you consented. We, as individuals, choose how we react.
All he had to do was say “No”. If he is irritated, he should be irritated at himself for saying “Yes”.
Well, I think the OP explained that he was caught off guard and that his initial response was just being considerate to what initially seemed like just some folks trying to help - in what way, he could not exactly be sure. IMO, they were then inconsiderate, and probably unknowingly so but still. In hindsight, they would show more tact, and OP would show more patience. He need not be irritated at himself.
And if we're going to hold a line on "they asked, you consented", then I'm saying No to everything.
:banana
Hey,I know those guys!My brother and I rode all night on a commercial overseas flight with them and they never shut up.Apparently,they get around.......
It's obvious OP was taken off guard by the initial request.I'm glad this incident was shared on WB so anyone else will be ready if queried by the trash and poop police.
Ear plugs. Christmas gift for your bro. Buy. Tell him to make then a basic in his traveling kit.
I guess I am not a trusting person. I would have been worried about being robbed down the trail primarily. I also don't allow strangers to look thru my stuff. Maybe it is because I am old. Guess that makes me a jerk also. I don't think I would feel like apologizing for anyone without a badge doing what they did.
my sentiments exactly. I prob would have been cordial enough to give them a couple minutes of casual conversation while standing at the "edge" of my campsite.... like the front porch of my house.... a couple questions and answers
but questions get too deep, or personal, or just too many (inconsiderate of my time)...I would have it it off just like you did.
...and don't even think about digging through my stuff.
BuckeyeBill
11-03-2018, 02:30
So, a couple of weeks ago, I was at Dolly Sods Wilderness. As I was breaking camp on my first morning, I noticed a couple in their early twenties approaching my campsite. I'll admit, I wasn't paying much attention, but I'm pretty sure they told me that they were volunteering for the Forest Service and they were educating hikers about Leave No Trace, though they showed me no credentials. They asked if they could check out my campsite. I said that's fine, but I'm trying to get packed up before the rain hits. So they followed me back to my campsite and started snooping around. Then they started to ask me about packing out my trash and digging cat holes. Then she asked me if I carry a shovel to bury my poop. I told her no, that I used my hiking pole. By this time, I am thoroughly annoyed, so I asked her if she was the poop police. Failing to grasp my sarcasm, she then explains, again, that she is volunteering to spread the word about LNT. At this point I was pissed so I stopped packing and just stared at them. The guy then commented that he liked my tarp set up, dug around in my fire pit with a stick, told me that my campsite was exceptionally clean, and proclaimed that I appeared to know what I was doing. Apparently my demeanor caused them to move on and they then found a group of five or six hikers that they talked to for over twenty minutes.
So, did they overstep their bounds, or am I the jerk for getting annoyed by this?
Three words would have solved this situation, "Yes, me too". Then get back to packing up.
sketcher709
11-03-2018, 10:28
Several years ago, I had a similar experience in New Hampshire. A young woman was trying to educate us (my wife and I) on everything in the vicinity of her tenting area. She drove us nuts. I think it goes back to the old idea that, "it's not what you say but how you say it."
The content of her comments were quite reasonable but the way she delivered them made us feel that we were being scolded every time she opened her mouth. We couldn't pack up soon enough the following morning.
Was her name MaryEllen? :)
was her name maryellen? :)
lol.....:d
Wow, I didn't realize this was still going on. Ha ha.
So... yeah, I probably could have handled it better.
And yeah, they probably could have done it different.
I take a hike every fall to clear all the cobwebs. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Mostly, I just want to be left alone. So.... perhaps I am just annoyed with people. Hahaha. But that doesn't mean they're right. Doesn't mean I'm right either.
But now I know that NO is the appropriate response.
Just so everyone knows, I keep a clean camp. And I've hiked enough to know how to bury my poop. And I've never left anything in the woods intentionally. One time I forgot a spork though by accident.
So, I think I may have taken it a little personal that my camp was suspect, since I take pride in keeping a clean camp.
Wow, I didn't realize this was still going on. Ha ha.
So... yeah, I probably could have handled it better.
And yeah, they probably could have done it different.
I take a hike every fall to clear all the cobwebs. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Mostly, I just want to be left alone. So.... perhaps I am just annoyed with people. Hahaha. But that doesn't mean they're right. Doesn't mean I'm right either.
But now I know that NO is the appropriate response.
And that my WB User friend shows maturity, consideration, and character. :cool: You got past the prevailing schismatic right wrong dichotomy mindset.
Speakeasy TN
11-19-2018, 12:13
I'd have to agree that they were ok on their end because they asked if they could look around. Kind of like a gear shakedown. If they didn't improve your knowledge, hike on without being OR feeling like a jerk. We've all been to sites where we wished there had been poop police. LNT is more important, on the whole, than you feeling bruised after you told them they could look around.
Tipi Walter
11-19-2018, 12:56
Those West Virginia LNT surveillance cops you encountered are pestering the wrong people---how could they have missed this major violation of the Leave No Trace policy???
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/80/Mountaintop_Removal.jpg
Time Zone
11-19-2018, 13:41
Oh, that's definitely LNT - they've left no trace there was ever a mountaintop there. :(
It could go either way. I never had a run-in with the Poop Police, but I have had encounters with some type of volunteer safety patrol at boat ramps. They have always been elderly/retired volunteers that will approach you and check you for compliance with state boating safety laws (fire extinguisher, life jackets, etc....). The first time I didn't know they weren't official, so I obliged them. Once I found out they were volunteer and had no enforcement powers, I try to avoid them because 1) I am in compliance and 2) a man is just trying to get home after a long day on the water. Who wants to stick around for a 20 minute lecture.
So I will say this about your situation...they were within bounds and I applaud their efforts, but so were you for just wanting to get moving. Bygones be bygones.
Those West Virginia LNT surveillance cops you encountered are pestering the wrong people---how could they have missed this major violation of the Leave No Trace policy???
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/80/Mountaintop_Removal.jpg
Great post.
I can think of other well meaning Trail stewards who devote themselves to protecting the aesthetic of our playground, but turn the other check to real environmental impact.
Trail Lady
11-19-2018, 22:04
As a female solo hiker my pat response, "To protect my privacy and security...no thank you." The word NO just by itself is always powerful and does not require justification. If they continue, just stare at their forehead as they talk. that will make them leave.