Throw me your thoughts for Hanover North for Two Weeks

[Gambit McCrae]

Needing to start compiling info for 2019's 2 week trip starting out in Hanover, NH(Dartmouth College).
Here's pretty much all I got so far, correct me if I'm wrong.

When: August 30th thru September 15th

Where: Hanover, NH NoBo ..... Grafton Notch, ME??? That would be 175 miles

Who: Myself and a hiking buddy. Both in better than average but not peak physical condition.

How:
To Trail: Fly into Boston, and take the Dartmouth Bus to Lebanon, NH. Uber from Leb to Hanover
To home: Grafton to Portland: Unknown but can get a shuttle if need be. Fly out of Portland, ME back to Nashville, TN.

My unknowns:
Is my time of year spot on? Accommodations/ sleeping locations in the whites. Curious about my daily mileage...Surely 11 MPD is manageable compared to my average MPD thus far on the trail. I do understand to expect less miles per day which is why I have decreased my MPD from 20 to 11.5

[Slo-go'en]

Your pretty much locked in to using designated sites. We can argue about stealth sites later, but better plan on using the shelters and tent platforms provided for your comfort and convivence, to say nothing about minimizing impact to this heavily used area. At the very least it gives you a base line.

In most sections, you'll only want to go from shelter to shelter or designated tent site, which are typically 10-11 miles apart. These are spaced to be doable in a day by the average hiker. And in most cases, it will take all day. You might want to splurge on a stay at an AMC hut. Mid week after labor day you might get lucky and score a couple of bunks at Lake of the Clouds. Just give them your credit card and don't think about it :)

Oh Boy, you plan to start on Labor Day weekend, the busiest weekend in the White Mountains. The trail is already full of thru hikers and add in a 1,000+ weekenders, it gets a little tight for camping spots, which are at a premium at the best of times.

If there is anyway you can postpone for a few days, do it. You can thank me later. The trail quiets down significantly after LDW, just you and the thru hikers. Sat/Sun are the peak days.

BTW, if you get to Gorham and think NH was hard, you ain't see nothing yet. The next 30 miles to Grafton notch are insane. There are 4 shelters and an improved tent site (privy, water) in those few miles for a reason. 4 days to do that section is common for non-thru hikers.

You can get a bus from Gorham back to Logan airport, which would be the easiest way back home. There's no easy way out of Grafton - and no cell service. You got to remember to make the call before descending old Spec. A shuttle from there to Portland would be big bucks. It would be quicker/cheaper to get a shuttle back to Gorham and bus to Boston from there, even if it means spending the night. One of the hostels in Andover (a couple of days hike north from Grafton Notch) service that area.

[Slo-go'en]

Actually, you an hitch back to Gorham from Grafton Notch without too much trouble. There are always a lot of day hikers at the parking lot and most of them will be going out to Route 2 and once on RT2, there's a lot of traffic going to Gorham (nearest Walmart).

[steve_zavocki]

As said above, logistically it would be easier to end in Gorham. That would be 11-12 hiking days. Based on your other posts, you can probably go from 20mpd to 14-15mpd. I did am older and likely slower and I did Gorham to Lincoln in 6 days which is 12.5 per day last July. You will do better than 11.5. My longest day was 21.2 (slackpack over wildcats on first day) and shortest was 7.8 (Pinkham to Madison Spring Hut in crappy weather)

Plan on staying at the Notch hostel, they are great. You can take advantage of their slack packing options.

Another idea if you are set on Grafton Notch, would be to arrange a shuttle from Gorham and then hike back to it and catch the bus back to Boston. Rattle river hostel might do that, or Eric knows someone who does.

[Gambit McCrae]

Although I will be starting LDW I will be starting in Hanover, and so LDW will not technically be spent in the whites.

I have no set plans as of now. That's why I wanted to post so that I can kinda get a feel for what is realistic and what is not.

If folks are confident in the 15 miles per day, allowing 1 zero per week would put me at 210 miles for the trip, which looks like ME17- Oquossoc, Maine would be 208 miles.

[tdoczi]

Although I will be starting LDW I will be starting in Hanover, and so LDW will not technically be spent in the whites.

I have no set plans as of now. That's why I wanted to post so that I can kinda get a feel for what is realistic and what is not.

If folks are confident in the 15 miles per day, allowing 1 zero per week would put me at 210 miles for the trip, which looks like ME17- Oquossoc, Maine would be 208 miles.
from hanover to franconia notch you can do 20 per day without much difficulty. perhaps more until you get to glencliff if you're ok with pushing it a bit.yes there are two majorly difficult spots along there but theyre short and everything else around is not terrible. consistent hard doesnt start until youre most of the way to franconia notch.

franconia notch to grafton will be up and down, but probably never 20 per day. 15 or 16 some days, 11 or 12 others. to me the biggest difference is trying to squeeze out 1 more mile or 2 is way harder than it is anywhere else.





after rangeley it gets tough again.

[tiptoe]

Hanover IS the last stop on the Dartmouth bus from Boston; no need for an Uber from Lebanon.

[VT-Mike]

Hanover IS the last stop on the Dartmouth bus from Boston; no need for an Uber from Lebanon.

Yep, it will drop you off at the Hanover Inn at the Hanover green.

[egilbe]

I've done as little as 7 miles and as many as 15 through New Hampshire. It really depends on how you're feeling. I thought the 12 miles from Gorham to Gentian Pond were fairly easy, especially compared to the next 18 miles. There are sections that are a very nice walks, like along Ethan Pond to Zealand Hut. But, then there are sections like Garfield Ridge trail and South Twin. Franconia Ridge us a nice walk, but South Kinsman from Rt 112 is a long, and in places, very steep climb with no views. I talked to through hikers that over-estimatedtheir abilities and under-estimated the difficulty of the section. I'd plan on 10 miles a day and be very flexible about what you can, or want to do.

[Slo-go'en]

Even though you are starting in Hanover, it will be busy. While it might not be "in the Whites", its still a very popular section of trail. Your likely end points for Sat/Sun will be at popular destination. All part of the adventure I guess.

[Berserker]

If folks are confident in the 15 miles per day, allowing 1 zero per week would put me at 210 miles for the trip, which looks like ME17- Oquossoc, Maine would be 208 miles.
It's been said a million times on WB including a few times by myself, that once you get into the Whites and Southern ME there's nothing anywhere else on the AT that's comparable from a difficulty standpoint. Most of the Whites and Southern ME are a combination of very steep ascents and descents many of which are actually more rock scrambles than actual hiking (i.e. normal walking).

For me personally, I can average 2.5 to 3 mph on most of the terrain of the AT, but I averaged 1.25 - 1.5 mph through the aforementioned part of the AT. Now I will say that I'm getting a bit older and slower so perhaps if I had hit that stuff when I was a bit younger and faster I could have done a little better. Nonetheless, I think I still would have had to drop the mileage down some.

So anyway, my advice would be to curb your mileage expectations a bit. I have read a lot of your posts on here and I know you like to suffer (:D), so take my advice for what it's worth. You may even want to consider breaking the section into multiple pieces so you can see how your progress is going and adjust accordingly. I know as a fellow section hiker that this is irritating to do, but there's a lot of shuttlers up there and if you have the cash the logistics aren't a big deal.

Also, if you have the money the huts are really nice. If you can string a few together you can even dump the pack and just carry a day pack with lunches and clothes. I did Crawford to Pinkham notches this way and it was awesome.

[Gambit McCrae]

Been thinking about this thread some more...

Are my 2 options thru the whites to either shuck out big bucks every night and stay in the hut or to take a big elevation hit to go off trail to campsites?

Is there not tenting options along the AT through here due to terrain?

[GoldenBear]

Are my 2 options thru the whites to either shuck out big bucks every night and stay in the hut or to take a big elevation hit to go off trail to campsites?
Is there not tenting options along the AT through here due to terrain?

1) Correct -- those are your two main options.
2) Correct -- due to terrain, there are NOT a lot of tenting options directly on The Trail.

The rules are spelled out here:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/activity/whitemountain/recreation/camping-cabins/?actid=34&recid=74405
"Camping and fires are prohibited
-Within 200 feet of trails...
-In the alpine zone - where the trees are 8 feet or less."

One could go below tree line and camp outside of designated camping areas, but it would probably be better to just go to those and save the time of looking for an ideal spot. Some of those campsites do not require a big elevation hit. There are also a few shelter along the way.

[QuietStorm]

I'm researching the same section for early July next year-Hanover to Gorham--and will be taking my hammock instead of a tent. I don't know what you use for shelter, but I've been advised by several who have done this section that it's much *easier* to find a place to hang than a tenting spot. Phil who does the sectionhiker.com blog advises the same thing. He cites Skurka as his source of advice.

[steve_zavocki]

You can get through the Whites just staying at pay campsites and not spend big bucks, unless $10 pp is big bucks to you ;)

As I said earlier in the thread, 15mpd is doable, especially for an experienced 30 year old. I am 49 and and I averaged about 12.5 in iffy weather.

Make sure you plan it so you go from Mizpah tentsite to Osgood tentsite and you will be fine. That will be a hard 15 mile day over Washington, but will set you up to avoid the huts. I don't remember any camping right off the trail in that stretch. Hopefully you will have better weather than I did.

[tdoczi]

Been thinking about this thread some more...

Are my 2 options thru the whites to either shuck out big bucks every night and stay in the hut or to take a big elevation hit to go off trail to campsites?

Is there not tenting options along the AT through here due to terrain?

thats really only true of the presidential range. a quick glance at the distances between designated campsites/shelters/etc shows this, regulation on where one can disperse camp aside.
so one night where your choice is a hut or a big descent. it may even be possible to plan around that, though its tough

[peakbagger]

There have always been legal tenting options to get through the whites except for one stretch. FYI, the referenced backcountry camping regulations (follow the link and download the 3 page brochure) are either intentionally confusing or just plain confusing. The second page lays out Leave no Trace concepts that you should follow they are not regulations they are recommendations. The third page covers the actual regulations and the actual restrictions are far less extensive then the LNT regs.

From Glencliff, Beaver Brook Shelter, Eliza Brook Shelter, Kinsman Pond Shelter, Liberty Tentsite Garfield Shelter, Ethan Pond Shelter, Nauman tentsite gets you to near Mt Pierce. The stretch from Nauman tentsite to Mt Adams is a problem, the best option is split it up by staying at the AMC Hut at Lake of the Crowds, the other options are less good but doable. The next best is go up over Washington and take the Jewell trail. About 1 mile off the AT and a 1000 foot drop is a primitive camping spot. The softwoods are high enough that a tent can be placed under the trees. There is water coming down off the slope onto the trail just before treeline. Its not a great spot but out of the weather. The next day head over to the RMC Perch campsite or take a chance for the Valley Way tentsite. After that its a run down the Osgood trail to the Osgood tentsite and then most folks take a zero at Pinkham. Once you leave Pinkham the bigger hassle is water. There is no water on the Wildcats and the Carters so you need to tank up before you get on top of the ridges and there are legal dry camp spots on occasion along the ridge, worse case is folks make it to Carter Notch and then drop down 19 mile brook trail to legal spots on either side of the trail. Next day is Imp Shelter and the day after you are in at RT 2.

The hassle is if you add up the days and look at the distances, most folks want to do the whites in less time and they can get out of synch with the tentsites. If you can get some car support getting a ride up Washington and slacking the ridge can really make for a nice break.

[Slo-go'en]

Getting 200 feet off the trail along the AT is nearly impossible. There are a lot of other trails in the White Mountain National forest where that rule is more practical, just not along the AT. The AT is mostly going up or down steeply or going along a narrow exposed ridge line. The woods on either side of the trail can be impenetrable. Even having a Hammock isn't going to do you much good unless your down in the hardwoods below 3000 feet.

Yes, there are a few small spots just off the trial where people have obviously used, but these are places you can't count on using.

Plan on going from AMC tent site to tent site or shelter and you won't have a problem.

[gbolt]

Although I will be starting LDW I will be starting in Hanover, and so LDW will not technically be spent in the whites. I have no set plans as of now. That's why I wanted to post so that I can kinda get a feel for what is realistic and what is not.
If folks are confident in the 15 miles per day, allowing 1 zero per week would put me at 210 miles for the trip, which looks like ME17- Oquossoc, Maine would be 208 miles.
15 Mpd may be great to get out of Hanover but the Whites slowed me way down. Although some days were 15ners, I wouldn’t push that again. 11-12 is plenty and allows taking time to enjoy some beautiful views and spent time above tree line. The suggestion of one night in a hut (Lake of the Clouds gets my vote) is a great one! If you don’t have already, get Guthook (Even if you just get Hanover to Grafton Notch), it will help with the planning phase of a section hike. After all, that’s all a Thru Hike is, 4-5 day sections just one after another! The Barn Hiker Hostel in Gorman is also a great place to stay.

Enjoy, the Whites always provides a wonderful, challenging, worthwhile hike!

[Gambit McCrae]

Daily Mileage thru the whites I am expecting 10-12.

Weather was kinda all over the place first 2 weeks of September in North Mass and Vermont. How will the weather be first 2 weeks thru NH? About the same? I am expecting slightly cooler due to elevation and exposure but geographically speaking will it be cooler on top of that due to being further north?

These huts have got my gears really grinding. I do not want to reserve a spot at the lakes and then be subject to having to keep that schedule. I am sure it is, but if I had my wish, I would walk all of the whites without using a single hut, and without having to climb 1000 ft down just in order to sleep. The rocks in PA, and the mud in VT have taught me that hikers amplify the actual severity of things for most situations. I understand that some times the mud may be terrible in VT, but I proved that it is not always that way as I had no issues with mud. So are the huts similar? IF it is getting close to dark, dinner is over, will they allow hikers to (of a number more then what is doing work for stay) sleep on the floor? Or will they toss ya back out into the grueling storms of the night to survive and fend for yourself?

[Slo-go'en]

Daily Mileage thru the whites I am expecting 10-12.

So are the huts similar? IF it is getting close to dark, dinner is over, will they allow hikers to (of a number more then what is doing work for stay) sleep on the floor? Or will they toss ya back out into the grueling storms of the night to survive and fend for yourself?

Basically, yes. They will throw you out to the wolves if they already have their allotted 4 thru hikers doing work for stay and your not willing to pull out the credit card to pay for a bunk. If there is one available. They are under no obligation to put you up due to your poor planning or inability to do the miles required to avoid the hut. They MIGHT make exceptions if the weather is poor and life threating, but don't count on it.

The sticky one is Lake of the Clouds. It's a long, tiring hike between the Nauman tent sites and the Osgood tent site and no good options in between except for Lakes. The only options are one of the RMC camps or the tent site down the Valley Way from Madison Hut. Both are a goodly ways down the side of the ridge and another good 4+ hours of hiking from Lakes. The Perch is the best place to head to, but it has limited capacity and fills up quickly on weekends. By the time you get there, you'd probably have to do the extra 1.5 miles to Gray Knob.

[Gambit McCrae]

The sticky one is Lake of the Clouds. It's a long, tiring hike between the Nauman tent sites and the Osgood tent site and no good options in between except for Lakes. .

How many of the huts have tenting sites? Just mizpah?

[Funkmeister]

I have done at trip like this years ago. I found the Dartmouth Outing Club has their orientation trips in the area during this time. Fifteen or so freshmen with an older guide under tarps near shelters. Not necessarily a deal breaker, but something to be aware of.

And once I did a hike thru here during Memorial Day. The motel I stayed at wanted a two-night stay minimum. I'd bet Labor Day brings similar restrictions. You didn't mention if you'd be staying overnight, but just a heads up in case of dreadful weather. I recall Velvet Rocks shelter being not too far out of Hanover, so if weather dictates, you could stay there.

The trip you describe is a fantastic trip. Enjoy.

[Puddlefish]

Let's not forget the important stuff... Eat at Lou's Restaurant and Bakery before departing Hanover.

[LittleRock]

This might help with camping options:

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/86526/

[peakbagger]

This might help with camping options:

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/86526/

I see multiple issues with the list. A large number are not "stealth sites" they are illegal sites. Some are just plain real optimistic

Between South Twin and Mount Guyot – Get water at Galehead Hut – various sites. Closer to Guyot than S. Twin. THis is very dense territory or above treeline not much that is legal, better off going to Guyot Shelter

Zeacliff Pond – a short descent (steep!) to the Pond from the AT. This was the hiker shelter location in 1936. The pond is not within the Pemi Wilderness so camping is OK. This is about a mile before the trail junction for Zeacliff Trail, about 2-3 miles before Zealand Hut. Yes it is within the Pemi wilderness, if you use this reference https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5363715.pdf you will see that the 200 foot from any trail rules applies (page3)

As an Alternative to Galehead Hut – Pick up water at Galehead Hut. Head up the Frost Trail to Mt. Galehead. At the summit you will see herd paths that lead to some hardened sites. Within the Pemi Wilderness 200 foot from trail rule applies

Alternative to Liberty Springs – Pick up water at Liberty Springs, head up to jct. with Franconia Ridge Trail and Liberty Springs Trail. Go towards Mt. Liberty (head south) you will be outside the FPA. Go towards the west side of the trail and there are some hardened spots. A word of caution is the FS has been marking obvious camping spots in this area on and off as no camping revegetation area. No Camping on the East side of the ridge as that's the Pemi Wilderness boundary where the 200 foot rule will put you into some gnarly stuff

Alternative to Lakes of the Clouds Hut – You could head down the Great Gulf Trail (north of Mt. Washington) and find a spot. Again, you will lose some elevation gain, but it gives you a bad weather option. This one is dangerous and laughable, the GG trail drop straight down the headwall of the Great Gulf on a loose slide. The lake at the bottom is no camping and the woods around it are dense with no spots

It skips the most popular legal alternative to Lake of the Crowds which is head down Jewell trail to treeline. Tank up on water and head into the woods, in a few minutes you will come to wide spot with fire ring to your right. Look around in the woods and you see the canopy is just high enough and open enough that you can pitch a small tent. Be very careful where you step as this area is also used as toilet spot by dayhikers. Note you can not head down Ammonuscuc Ravine trail unless you want to drop way down off the ridge as it a no camping zone all the way to near the bottom

Edmands Col – between Jefferson and Adams. This historically was an emergency shelter area, lots of flat spots, windy, dry camping above tree line. Not recommended but I've camped here. Another really dumb one unless the weather is perfect, weather and thunderstorms come in from the west and Mt Jefferson blocks the view in that direction so even though its a nice night a storm from the west can blow in and there is zero cover. Mt Jefferson being the farthest west usually get lots of lighting strikes. There is no good route to cover

Madison Hut area – Just to the East is a small lake on side trail descending into Madison Gulf. Flat areas are just past the lake, protected from winds but still above tree line and not recommended. The hut crew will instruct you to descend to the Valley Way tent site about 1 mile down to the North of the hut. Not legal as its above treeline and in Wilderness area. Also potential significant storm potential as Adams blocks the views to the west

Another area this is legal and quite popular is the woods between Mt Pierce and Eisenhower. Its technically below treeline and there are several flat ledges in the woods.

Note my standard caveat applies that the FS camping regs for the whites were either intentionally or accidently made confusing. Leave no trace is nice to do but not the law. So there is a list of nice things to do on page 2 but the actual places you can get fined are on the back page.

My comments on the huts, hut crews have some latitude on visitors as they have a few spare "staff spaces" hidden away. If they are in good mood and some prior thruhiker didn't piss them off they sometimes will find more spots. The key is to approach them politely as they know the regs and are not getting conned. If you pull the "emergency trick" where you claim you are injured and cant go any further, they can offer to call fish and game who may elect to send a rescue crew and bill you for the rescue. The key thing with the huts is they get booked months in advance during popular periods. Folks plans change and bad weather or over optimistic hiking plans means folks will drop out and not show up for their reservations. Generally this happens after they cannot cancel so the space is open and food has been cooked. The hut staff then get to maximize the revenue from the space as it and the food is already cooked. In past year the crews in the huts know if there are slots open in the other huts as they do a daily radio reports between the huts. The hut crews are always looking for entertainment for the guests and thruhikers are source of entertainment to many of the guests. It may remind you of how the bears and other animals feel like in the Harriman Zoo ;)

[4eyedbuzzard]

Daily Mileage thru the whites I am expecting 10-12. Weather was kinda all over the place first 2 weeks of September in North Mass and Vermont. How will the weather be first 2 weeks thru NH? About the same? I am expecting slightly cooler due to elevation and exposure but geographically speaking will it be cooler on top of that due to being further north?...Weather is more "all over the place" in NH and especially the Whites than anywhere else on the AT. The Whites sit at the convergence of three weather patterns. Often the difference from sunny and clear to wind and rain is only a 10 mile shift in a frontal system. For higher summits expect AVERAGE highs in 50's, lows in the 30's in Sept., and about 5 to 10 degrees warmer at increasingly lower elevations. Factor in wind chill at higher elevations/exposed areas. Over two weeks in Sept you could see anything ± 15° or so from averages. It's almost always windy (30+mph) on the ridges, but some days it's REALLY windy (like 50+mph). Strong winds will slow you down a lot in exposed areas. Even if it's a tail wind it makes the footing difficult. Any rain on top of that can pretty much grind you to a crawl or even a zero if it's real bad. Realistically, I think you need to have some scheduled "give" in the schedule for days where you might not be able (or even willing) to hike. Two full weeks of straight out good weather is pretty much unknown in NH. Typically it's two or three good days followed by a bad one or two. It might be wise to keep options open as to exactly when and where you finish, figure on taking a few zeros due to weather, and go with the flow as the weather allows.

[DavidNH]

you are giving your self two weeks from Hanover, NH. Getting to Grafton Notch Maine is very ambitious and if the weather does not cooporate it could be almost impossible. I strongly recommend you make Gorham, NH your goal. Plus from GOrham you can get a trailways bus south to Boston.

[peakbagger]

The nice thing with the whites is if things really get fouled up you can always drop down to the road on many (but not all side trails) and catch an AMC shuttle twice a day to Gorham if you get behind. This means that when you come back to go farther north you just take the bus to Gorham and catch the AMC shuttle to go back to where you came out. Its a lot more difficult after Gentian Pond in the Mahoosucs, All the trails to the north end up on Success Pond Road which is long dusty logging road that doesnt get lot of traffic. The Wright Trail to the south ends up on dead end logging road with minimal traffic except on hot nights when the locals party at a swimming hole. Otherwise its long walk to the first house and a long shuttle ride to anywhere.

Another note is the read the shuttle info for the Notch hostel. Especially that they do not run shuttles on weekends. They have a great reputation and worth considering for a slackpack but they are not right off the trail. Its a 3 mile walk or hitch down from Kinsman Notch and very long drive/hitch from AT crossing under the parkway. Note the AT goes under the parkway with no access from the parkway. Tts dangerous area to stop on the side of the road and definitely no parking. There is a short side trail to the AT lot which is in a confusing location to some on RT3 (not the parkway).

[Gambit McCrae]

I started to hijack the other thread so here I am with my quick plan/ trail math. I typically just start the hike with zero planning but NH has got me scatter brained...

Take Dartmouth Coach to Hanover to begin trip.
Hanover, NH - Lincoln, NH - 69 miles - 4 days

Resupply in Lincoln.

Lincoln, NH - US2 Gorham, NH - 75 Miles - 6 or 7 days (no resupply)

Resupply in Gorham

US2Gorham, NH to ME26/Grafton Notch - 31 Miles 3 or 4 days.

Fly home out of Portland, ME

Thoughts on this and ideas on how to get from Grafton Notch to Portland airport?

[tdoczi]

I started to hijack the other thread so here I am with my quick plan/ trail math. I typically just start the hike with zero planning but NH has got me scatter brained...

Take Dartmouth Coach to Hanover to begin trip.
Hanover, NH - Lincoln, NH - 69 miles - 4 days

Resupply in Lincoln.

Lincoln, NH - US2 Gorham, NH - 75 Miles - 6 or 7 days (no resupply)

Resupply in Gorham

US2Gorham, NH to ME26/Grafton Notch - 31 Miles 3 or 4 days.

Fly home out of Portland, ME

Thoughts on this and ideas on how to get from Grafton Notch to Portland airport?
the mahoosucs won't take you 4 days. probably not 3 full ones. you probably won't do it in 2 days, but you'll be done early on day 3.

[Gambit McCrae]

the mahoosucs won't take you 4 days. probably not 3 full ones. you probably won't do it in 2 days, but you'll be done early on day 3.

So if I leave out of Gorham with 4-5 days left of my trip I should be shooting for Andover (41 miles) and if I am feeling sprite then Oquossoc (65 miles)?

[peakbagger]

For a ride home prearrange a shuttle with Trail Angels in Berlin NH http://www.trailangelshikerservices.com/shuttle.html when in Gorham and call the shuttle from the top of Speck. FOr a none thru hikers to do the Mahoosucs in 3 days is optimistic. My guess is RT2 to Gentian Pond. Gentian Pond to Full Goose and then Full goose to RT 26 (a long day). Its about a 3 hour drive to the Portland airport and its unlikely you will get a flight out that night which means an expensive hotel room at the Portland Airport or slightly less expensive hotels at the Maine mall making sure they have a shuttle to the airport. The alternative is to stay at Speck Pond Shelter, get up in the AM and hike down to the road. You should be down by 11AM. That gets you into Portland in time to catch the evening flights. To do the two and half day hike you need to make it Carlo Col the first day and then to Speck Pond the next night and the make it it down by noon.

As you can see by the link the Portland drive is expensive, that is why many folks stop in Gorham NH and take the morning bus down to Logan in Boston.

[Slo-go'en]

Yep, tacking on the Mahoosucs seriously complicates things and makes it much more expensive. The Mahoosucs are not to be underestimated. It's the most difficult stretch on the AT. You'll be beat up by the time you get there. The Whites were just a warm up.

The trail between RT 2 and Grafton is poorly maintained, to the point where you will start to question whether or not your still on the AT. At least it was earlier this summer. It's just one crazy thing after another with multiple "***?" and "Oh man, really?" moments. It's a memerable section, that's for sure.

In any event, you definitely want to end up at Full Goose shelter for the night. That sets you up for getting through the famous Mahoosuc notch in the morning and then the equally infamous climb up the south arm. Watch out for the bog bridges at the top, slip off and you'll be sorry.

Now if you still have some energy left and it's not too late when you get to Speck pond, you might be willing to climb the rest of the way up Old Speck and do the long decent off the north side. With luck you'll get to the parking lot by dark. But Speck pond is another one of those special places and worth staying at.

As for getting to Full Goose, Gentian to Full Goose is a heck of a day. You really should break it up with a stay at Carlo Col, even if it's 0.3 down a steep, washed out, ankle twisty trail. This is such an interesting and unique area, you should take your time to enjoy it. I usually hike this area a little later in the fall when the colors peak.

[tdoczi]

So if I leave out of Gorham with 4-5 days left of my trip I should be shooting for Andover (41 miles) and if I am feeling sprite then Oquossoc (65 miles)?
i getting fuzzy on the locations of those towns as they are off the trail and they can be reached by more than one road crossing. the best i can say is from rt 2 to rangely took me about 6-7 days, so 4-5 days from rt 2 leaves you a few road crossing short of that

[4eyedbuzzard]

I started to hijack the other thread so here I am with my quick plan/ trail math. I typically just start the hike with zero planning but NH has got me scatter brained...

Take Dartmouth Coach to Hanover to begin trip.
Hanover, NH - Lincoln, NH - 69 miles - 4 days

Resupply in Lincoln.

Lincoln, NH - US2 Gorham, NH - 75 Miles - 6 or 7 days (no resupply)

Resupply in Gorham

US2Gorham, NH to ME26/Grafton Notch - 31 Miles 3 or 4 days.

Fly home out of Portland, ME

Thoughts on this and ideas on how to get from Grafton Notch to Portland airport?Noted in a prior post in this other thread https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/129151-Trail-math-for-those-who-enjoy-it-What-I-have-left-and-the-Time-it-will-Take?p=2205218 you averaged 18 mpd in NJ/NY/CT section, 20mpd in PA. But you plan on averaging only slightly less, 17 mpd, Hanover to Franconia/Lincoln? That just sounds somewhat optimistic based on prior results - even if the weather is perfect. And the weather will potentially affect your schedule all through NH. I've hiked both of those sections, and while the first day out of Hanover may be comparable from a difficulty and footpath standpoint, the rest certainly isn't.

[tdoczi]

Noted in a prior post in this other thread https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/129151-Trail-math-for-those-who-enjoy-it-What-I-have-left-and-the-Time-it-will-Take?p=2205218 you averaged 18 mpd in NJ/NY/CT section, 20mpd in PA. But you plan on averaging only slightly less, 17 mpd, Hanover to Franconia/Lincoln? That just sounds somewhat optimistic based on prior results - even if the weather is perfect. And the weather will potentially affect your schedule all through NH. I've hiked both of those sections, and while the first day out of Hanover may be comparable from a difficulty and footpath standpoint, the rest certainly isn't.

17 as an average from hanover to lincoln seems fine with me, though the "i'm only willing to tent" angle complicates things (ive forgotten that a couple times when i've chimed in). for reference, kinsman notch to franconia notch is about 17 miles and ive done in a day with no problem.

franconia to gorham his proposing an average of 12.5 MPD, thats perhaps a little light. some days will be that short, but others can go longer.

again, the inflexibility on where to camp is a mokey wrench though. but as far as covering the terrain its possible.

[4eyedbuzzard]

17 as an average from hanover to lincoln seems fine with me, though the "i'm only willing to tent" angle complicates things (ive forgotten that a couple times when i've chimed in). for reference, kinsman notch to franconia notch is about 17 miles and ive done in a day with no problem.

franconia to gorham his proposing an average of 12.5 MPD, thats perhaps a little light. some days will be that short, but others can go longer.

again, the inflexibility on where to camp is a mokey wrench though. but as far as covering the terrain its possible.I agree that it can be done and that many people can do it. But I was basing my comment on his historic average of 18 mpd over some of the easiest AT sections, and assuming that represents his normal hiking pace. The 70 miles from Hanover to Franconia is a far more difficult hike IMO than any 70 mile section in NJ/NY/CT. Lots more elevation change, tougher footpath with steep (and often slippery) ascents/descents, etc. I'm just thinking that 13-14 mpd avg in the Hanover to Franconia section is probably more realistic based on prior results.

[tdoczi]

The 70 miles from Hanover to Franconia is a far more difficult hike IMO than any 70 mile section in NJ/NY/CT.
ehh, see thats where i don't know if i agree. i guess it depends on sample size. there are 3 or 4 spots through there (down moosilauke going nobo, up south kinsman going nobo, some of the area on the franconia notch side of kinsman) where the going gets very rough but i'm going to say thats... 10? 8? 12? miles out of 70. I've never really considered short bursts of very difficult being of all that much consequence to the overall pace of a multiday trip. when you're hiking 10 hours a day for several days in a row does it being hard for 3 hours at some point really slow you down?

hanover to the skiway is a cakewalk. (18 miles or so) from after mt cube to glencliff ditto (10 miles). thats 28 of those 70 miles that are in fact as easy (if not easier) than NY/NJ/CT. smarts mt and mt cube are harder, but not monumentally difficult. the climb up the glencliff side of moosilauke is in the running for my vote for least difficult section of trail people say is hard (i think the other side of moosilauke is to blame for this). after the climb out kinsman notch until the bottom of south kinsman is also very easy hiking.

i'll also say from my reading of his posts Gambit seems to hike at a pace similar to mine (not sure where 18 miles through NJ/NY/CT comes from, I haven't been following all of that in this much detail) so i'm guessing he could do about what i was able to do. but i wasnt trying to land at legal tenting every night.

[egilbe]

From the descent off Mooselauke to, probably, the ascent to the Height of the Land in Rangely is some of the toughest hiking on the AT. It has the 4/5 of the steepest one and two mile sections of the trail according to Guthook. The descent down Moose, the ascent up South twin, the ascent up Garfield, the ascent up the Wildcats. From Zealand hut to Crawford Notch is a nice hike. Pretty area.

The section between Gorham and Gentian pond is pretty nice. After that pray for good weather. I had Hurricane Harvey and it's aftermath to deal with until I got to Rt 26 so that added a day to that section.

[tdoczi]

From the descent off Mooselauke to, probably, the ascent to the Height of the Land in Rangely is some of the toughest hiking on the AT. It has the 4/5 of the steepest one and two mile sections of the trail according to Guthook. The descent down Moose, the ascent up South twin, the ascent up Garfield, the ascent up the Wildcats. From Zealand hut to Crawford Notch is a nice hike. Pretty area.

The section between Gorham and Gentian pond is pretty nice. After that pray for good weather. I had Hurricane Harvey and it's aftermath to deal with until I got to Rt 26 so that added a day to that section.

i've heard otherwise from so many people so many times that i've almost convinced myself i'm delusional or something, but i'm still hanging on to the idea that grafton notch to rangely is actually substantially easier than rangely to east flagstaff rd. the treadway may not be as difficult but the amount of times descent inverts upon ascent and back again (and many thousand feet each time) killed me.

frankly the mahoosucs from rt 2 until just a bit before carlo col are easier too i think, in some sense. again, treadway is more difficult but you aren't climbing uphill steadily for 3 miles to just go straight back down the other side and back up again.

[Slo-go'en]

Grafton notch to Rangeley isn't too bad. Excpet for the climb up Baldpate, and the little bump called Moody mountain and the climb up Mt Blue. But other then that, yea easy pezzy. I really like the Bemis range once you get up on to it. ME17 the rest of the way to Rangeley is the easy bit.

It's not until you get past the Bigelow's that Maine gets easy. Saddleback and the Crocker's are pretty tough.

[Gambit McCrae]

17 as an average from hanover to lincoln seems fine with me, though the "i'm only willing to tent" angle complicates things (ive forgotten that a couple times when i've chimed in). for reference, kinsman notch to franconia notch is about 17 miles and ive done in a day with no problem.

franconia to gorham his proposing an average of 12.5 MPD, thats perhaps a little light. some days will be that short, but others can go longer.

again, the inflexibility on where to camp is a mokey wrench though. but as far as covering the terrain its possible.

tdoczi let me clarify the only willing to tent. I will not pay to hop from hut to hut every night. I will stay at shelters, or tentsites. I would prefer to sleep in my tent every night, but if logistically a shelter space is the only space, I am not above it, I just really prefer my tent. I am open to spending 1 night in a hut and figured from others comments that Lake of the clouds hut is the hut you wanna pick logistically.

[tdoczi]

tdoczi let me clarify the only willing to tent. I will not pay to hop from hut to hut every night. I will stay at shelters, or tentsites. I would prefer to sleep in my tent every night, but if logistically a shelter space is the only space, I am not above it, I just really prefer my tent. I am open to spending 1 night in a hut and figured from others comments that Lake of the clouds hut is the hut you wanna pick logistically.
well i dont think theres any shelters you can't tent at so thats sort of moot. well, maybe the perch and those places.

lakes definitely makes things easier. so would carter notch or at least joe dodge lodge/ getting off trail for the night at pinkham.

the other big hurdle is crawford notch. ive often wondered but dont think i've ever seen an answer- is it legal to tent anywhere within a mile or two of either side of 302?

[Slo-go'en]

the other big hurdle is crawford notch. ive often wondered but dont think i've ever seen an answer- is it legal to tent anywhere within a mile or two of either side of 302?

Well yea, Ethan pond. It's an easy 2.5 miles to the road. The only easy bit on this whole trip. A big chunk of that 2.5 miles is tacking across a giant rock slide overlooking a ravine and the notch. Once you cross the road you start climbing pretty much right away. Plus the whole area is state park with no camping allowed.

You can tent at The Perch, there are 4 platforms and a shelter. If you tent at the Perch, I helped build those platforms :) Problem is, it's a very popular place and will fill up early in the afternoon with people hiking up from the valley, especially weekends.

Staying at Lakes is pretty much a given. I managed the perch to Neuman in one day, but I had a 10 pound pack and it was around the summer solace with perfect weather and had just came back from doing 300 miles of Virginia. Even so, almost didn't make it before dark.

[tdoczi]

Well yea, Ethan pond. It's an easy 2.5 miles to the road. The only easy bit on this whole trip. A big chunk of that 2.5 miles is tacking across a giant rock slide overlooking a ravine and the notch. Once you cross the road you start climbing pretty much right away. Plus the whole area is state park with no camping allowed.

You can tent at The Perch, there are 4 platforms and a shelter. If you tent at the Perch, I helped build those platforms :) Problem is, it's a very popular place and will fill up early in the afternoon with people hiking up from the valley, especially weekends.

Staying at Lakes is pretty much a given. I managed the perch to Neuman in one day, but I had a 10 pound pack and it was around the summer solace with perfect weather and had just came back from doing 300 miles of Virginia. Even so, almost didn't make it before dark.
i just dont know how hard ethan pond to lakes would be. ive done crawford notch to lakes and it was one of those weird white mountain hikes where even though a good part of it (ie once youre on the ridgeline) doesnt seem particularly hard it somehow seems to take forever anyway. and that was in absolute stellar weather. ethan pond to neuman seems like a waste of a day to me, especially if you are going to stay at lakes.

as silly as it might seem to think an easy extra 2.5 miles is a deal breaker it might be. i think i'd try and find myself some way to stay in crawford notch. get up to the highland center somehow or isnt there a developed commercial campground and a motel south of the AT crossing a few miles?

[peakbagger]

Yes there are two developed campgrounds south of the AT crossing at Crawford Notch. The state of NH owned Dry River Campground is about 1.6 miles. It has showers but no store. There is commercial campground with a very basic store/snackbar about 3 miles south. The state facility is far nicer. There is also the Willey House historic site about a mile north. It has a snack bar and ice cream. Good place to hitch as it has lots of tourists stop there. Plenty of places to camp in the woods down near the highway. Its open hardwoods on both sides. Just no facilities.

Keep in mind if you go to Highland center, you want to stay in the Shapleigh, its lower cost but has access to all the facilities. The complaint I have heard from folks is the AYCE breakfast starts too late in the AM for hiker to be able to use it unless they are zeroing or just running a short hike like Crawford to Nauman tentsite (next to Mitzpah hut).

[tdoczi]

Yes there are two developed campgrounds south of the AT crossing at Crawford Notch. The state of NH owned Dry River Campground is about 1.6 miles. It has showers but no store. There is commercial campground with a very basic store/snackbar about 3 miles south. The state facility is far nicer. There is also the Willey House historic site about a mile north. It has a snack bar and ice cream. Good place to hitch as it has lots of tourists stop there. Plenty of places to camp in the woods down near the highway. Its open hardwoods on both sides. Just no facilities.



i dont think of you as one to recommend illegal campsites so i assume those are legal? the ones you describe as "in the woods down near the highway?"

if so i think i'd go for that were i just hiking through. that or the dry river campground, assuming the walk down to it isnt terrible.

[Slo-go'en]

Technically, it's illegal to camp within 1/4 mile of the road, which probably puts you where the trail starts climbing. But if you want to camp that close to the road, go ahead.

Going down to the campground really doesn't save you much vs staying at Ethan.

Breaking up that section to get to lakes without staying at Neuman is tough. Ethan to Neuman might look short, but the climb up Webster Cliffs is a grunt (and scary in places), but once on top of Jackson, not so bad the rest of the way. At that point in the trip, you'd probably appreciate a "short" day anyway.

[tdoczi]

Going down to the campground really doesn't save you much vs staying at Ethan.

if you find a ride back to the trail in the morning it does.

its been a long time and my memory is fuzzy but as your hiking NOBO after you cross the road dont you walk through an open field for what must be more than 1/4 mile before you get to anything like a climb?

[tdoczi]

Technically, it's illegal to camp within 1/4 mile of the road, which probably puts you where the trail starts climbing. But if you want to camp that close to the road, go ahead.

Going down to the campground really doesn't save you much vs staying at Ethan.

Breaking up that section to get to lakes without staying at Neuman is tough. Ethan to Neuman might look short, but the climb up Webster Cliffs is a grunt (and scary in places), but once on top of Jackson, not so bad the rest of the way. At that point in the trip, you'd probably appreciate a "short" day anyway.

oh and as far as the short day thing... ok now youre at neuman, and then you do what the next day? lakes? too short again, now youve made 1 day hike into a 2 day hike.

madison is probably doable but a haul. the perch is off trail a bit.

if it can be done camping in the notch is the way to do it.

[Slo-go'en]

I don't know, camping at the notch doesn't look promising with Google Earth. A short distance from the road you cross the river and then start climbing right away. Maybe near the parking lot just off the road walk. It's a steady, but reasonably gentile down hill on the west side until just before the parking lot.

I'd have to take a ride down there to check it out and refresh my memory. That is, once all the snow melts and I find a nice day.

[peakbagger]

You know you are right the 1/4 mile rule pretty well cut out the actual notch. The legal option would be between the intersection of the Willey trail and where it drops down towards Ripley Falls. Somewhere upslope of the Flume trail. The Wilderness area boundary stops just after Ethan Pond so from there someone could camp on the trail. as long as they stay 1/4 of mile from a highway which doesn't happen until it tuns steep downhill.

[dudeijuststarted]

Just end in Gorham. Southern Maine is like one of those Saw movies. Finish this trip on a high note in the lovely Whites and tackle psychotic Maine on its own.

[rickb]

The Wilderness area boundary stops just after Ethan Pond so from there someone could camp on the trail. as long as they stay 1/4 of mile from a highway which doesn't happen until it tuns steep downhill.

State Park regs?

[tdoczi]

State Park regs?

i see theres a trail from the AT to the dry river campground? whats that trail like? 2.5 miles versus 1.6 miles might seem like not a big difference but ethan pond is a lot higher than the notch so that extra mile is all steep downhill.

[Dogwood]

Been thinking about this thread some more...

Are my 2 options thru the whites to either shuck out big bucks every night and stay in the hut or to take a big elevation hit to go off trail to campsites?

Is there not tenting options along the AT through here due to terrain?


One can organize their days to not always take that big a elev hit by camping at the routes low elev profile pts or where legally, camp high.

Good tip you received organizing your trip using a hang as shelter. +1 Makes it much easier with some forethought to find camping spots. You will not continually be above treeline. When I first saw a hanger carrying a hammock I knee jerk thought he was crazy until I spent some poor nights with rocks in my back, more $$, and being among the other smelly tin packed sardines.

You have your getting to the trail and out logistically nicely laid out. FWIW, I've taken Amtrak into and from White River Junction in VT transferring to a NH Bus to Hanover which provided stops at greater access to resupply and outfitters. It's a short bus ride. WRJ/White river is on the NH/VT border. The bus into Hanover is fine though too. The Amtrak Vermonter has many connections to a wider number of AP's than Logan. You can go all the way to Wash DC. I used it when living in southern NJ. This was awhile ago though. Jus offering if you want an option to $ compare.

[peakbagger]

State Park regs?

I don't see any state specific regulations listed for Crawford Notch State Park with respect to camping. My experience several years ago with undeveloped state park lands in other parts of the state was that dispersed camping was allowed unless specific noticed. Camp fires on the other hand were not. Given that Crawford Notch State Park is entirely within the declaration boundary of the WMNF. It would be interesting to see if the WMNF 1/4 mile from roads rule would apply as the land is actually owned byt . I am unsure if I have seen the typical WMNF RUA sign on trails in Crawford Notch State Park although its not something I actively look for. I have see RUA signs on Old Bridal Path at the boundary between Franconia State Park and WMNF. I expect the state has rule somewhere they can use if it becomes and issue.

[peakbagger]

i see theres a trail from the AT to the dry river campground? whats that trail like? 2.5 miles versus 1.6 miles might seem like not a big difference but ethan pond is a lot higher than the notch so that extra mile is all steep downhill.

I have not hiked it but expect it just roughly parallels the highway. That stretch of woods has had some serious flooding events in the last few years so I don't know the current status
https://www.nhstateparks.org/getmedia/dff4be6e-c5db-4049-8818-ea94fb828a09/Crawford-Notch-State-Park-Hiking-Map.pdf

Yes Ethan Pond is on a relatively flat bench. The AT runs east a short distance and intersects the Willey Range Trail (which is a steep climb including several ladders) and it then runs south along a fairly flat slope. Once it hits the edge of the Ripley Falls drainage it turns east again goes directly down slope on a combination of rock steps water bars and eroded trench.

AMC had proposed building a full service Hut in the area north of the AT pushed up against the WMNF boundary and right at the top of the slope above Ripley Falls. They had the cash and plans in hands and it looked to be an easy build on state land but local ice climbers and folks who had no love for AMC started a petition and the project got canceled.

[tdoczi]

I have not hiked it but expect it just roughly parallels the highway. That stretch of woods has had some serious flooding events in the last few years so I don't know the current status
https://www.nhstateparks.org/getmedia/dff4be6e-c5db-4049-8818-ea94fb828a09/Crawford-Notch-State-Park-Hiking-Map.pdf

Yes Ethan Pond is on a relatively flat bench. The AT runs east a short distance and intersects the Willey Range Trail (which is a steep climb including several ladders) and it then runs south along a fairly flat slope. Once it hits the edge of the Ripley Falls drainage it turns east again goes directly down slope on a combination of rock steps water bars and eroded trench.

AMC had proposed building a full service Hut in the area north of the AT pushed up against the WMNF boundary and right at the top of the slope above Ripley Falls. They had the cash and plans in hands and it looked to be an easy build on state land but local ice climbers and folks who had no love for AMC started a petition and the project got canceled.
i was wondering what happened with that. seemed sort of unnecessary to me and for purposes of this discussion wouldnt really help what i'm thinking (starting a day with the climb of webster cliff rather than the descent from the other side of the notch followed by the climb)

my sense (grounded in nothing much concrete at all) is that the trail to campground is probably a very easy walk. i guess the other question would be how difficult getting a site as a walk in an hour before sundown would be.

[Slo-go'en]

i see theres a trail from the AT to the dry river campground? whats that trail like? 2.5 miles versus 1.6 miles might seem like not a big difference but ethan pond is a lot higher than the notch so that extra mile is all steep downhill.

I was afraid there was going to be a steep decent, but it was pretty gradual. I did the 2.5 miles in about an hour. But we were in a rush to get to the road before dark.

I had meet a thru hiker at Zealand who needed to get to the Gorham PO for new shoes and was trying to figure out how to get there. (The shoes he had on were in rough shape and would never make it through the next few days) I told him I had a car at Crawford and would pass through Gorham on my way home, so I'd give him a ride. We got to Ethan Pond with some daylight left and a forecast of rain moving in overnight and all the next day, so we decided to book it to the parking lot.

[tdoczi]

I was afraid there was going to be a steep decent, but it was pretty gradual. I did the 2.5 miles in about an hour. But we were in a rush to get to the road before dark.

I had meet a thru hiker at Zealand who needed to get to the Gorham PO for new shoes and was trying to figure out how to get there. (The shoes he had on were in rough shape and would never make it through the next few days) I told him I had a car at Crawford and would pass through Gorham on my way home, so I'd give him a ride. We got to Ethan Pond with some daylight left and a forecast of rain moving in overnight and all the next day, so we decided to book it to the parking lot.

i dont remember it being steep either but the elevation profile begs to differ. its been over 10 years but my recollection is that it was more or less flat all the way from zealand falls hut but the profile i'm looking at shows a drop of about 1800 feet in roughly 2 miles. i really dont recall that section of trail at all i guess.

[Slo-go'en]

i dont remember it being steep either but the elevation profile begs to differ. its been over 10 years but my recollection is that it was more or less flat all the way from zealand falls hut but the profile i'm looking at shows a drop of about 1800 feet in roughly 2 miles. i really dont recall that section of trail at all i guess.

I did that trail about 10 months ago, so my memory is pretty fresh. The last bit down to the Willey road was a bit rocky and eroded (what trail in NH isn't?), but it wasn't exceptionally steep. I was afraid we'd have to climb down another cliff like we did several times that day and was pleasantly surprised they didn't try to kill us.

[Slo-go'en]

One can organize their days to not always take that big a elev hit by camping at the routes low elev profile pts or where legally, camp high.
Good tip you received organizing your trip using a hang as shelter. +1 Makes it much easier with some forethought to find camping spots. You will not continually be above treeline. When I first saw a hanger carrying a hammock I knee jerk thought he was crazy until I spent some poor nights with rocks in my back, more $$, and being among the other smelly tin packed sardines.

You can camp high by staying at the AMC campsites, some of which are pretty high. Other then that, no. We are not going to discus illegal "stealth" sites, of which there are only less than a handful along there anyway.

If you hang, you still have to stay at the designated campsites, but that could get you off a tent platform with 2 other tents on it, but maybe not at all sites. Once your above about 3500 feet your into the dense pine/spruce/balsam forest and hanging in short pine trees that are all 2 feet apart is not practical. To hang you need to be down in the hardwood forest.

The tough section is Mizpah to Osgood since that is all above tree line. The only options are Lakes, Madison hut or one of the RMC camps and Valley way tent site. The last two options require dropping 1000 feet off the ridge line.

[rickb]

I don't see any state specific regulations listed for Crawford Notch State Park with respect to camping. My experience several years ago with undeveloped state park lands in other parts of the state was that dispersed camping was allowed unless specific noticed. Camp fires on the other hand were not. Given that Crawford Notch State Park is entirely within the declaration boundary of the WMNF. It would be interesting to see if the WMNF 1/4 mile from roads rule would apply as the land is actually owned byt . I am unsure if I have seen the typical WMNF RUA sign on trails in Crawford Notch State Park although its not something I actively look for. I have see RUA signs on Old Bridal Path at the boundary between Franconia State Park and WMNF. I expect the state has rule somewhere they can use if it becomes and issue.
Signs in the WMNF sometimes better reflect the spirit of the regulations, than the regulations themselves :-)

As for NH State Park camping restrictions, here is what my Google Fu turned up:

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rules/state_agencies/res7300.html

44808

[rickb]

i see theres a trail from the AT to the dry river campground? whats that trail like? 2.5 miles versus 1.6 miles might seem like not a big difference but ethan pond is a lot higher than the notch so that extra mile is all steep downhill.

A bit steep going up with a heavy pack, not so steep going down (no hands or hyper focused mind needed).

[rickb]

Or hike directly into the AMC’s Higland Center, and back to the AT on a relatively gentle blue blaze.

You would miss the fun of the Webster Cliff, but there ar pros and cons to everything.

Shapleigh Bunk house has showers and you can enjoy the amenities of the big building (real meals but not included in price, I think) and an amazing Brad Washburn (SP) photo exhibit in the building next to it. Still there, right? You would want reservations even for the bunkhouse.

If raining and you time things well, shower up and hitch to the Mount Washington Hotel for an expensive brunch — and show them the kind of damage a real hiker can do to thier bottom line. Not sure if mimosas are included...

[Night Train]

great plan

[Berserker]

Daily Mileage thru the whites I am expecting 10-12.

Weather was kinda all over the place first 2 weeks of September in North Mass and Vermont. How will the weather be first 2 weeks thru NH? About the same? I am expecting slightly cooler due to elevation and exposure but geographically speaking will it be cooler on top of that due to being further north?

These huts have got my gears really grinding. I do not want to reserve a spot at the lakes and then be subject to having to keep that schedule. I am sure it is, but if I had my wish, I would walk all of the whites without using a single hut, and without having to climb 1000 ft down just in order to sleep. The rocks in PA, and the mud in VT have taught me that hikers amplify the actual severity of things for most situations. I understand that some times the mud may be terrible in VT, but I proved that it is not always that way as I had no issues with mud. So are the huts similar? IF it is getting close to dark, dinner is over, will they allow hikers to (of a number more then what is doing work for stay) sleep on the floor? Or will they toss ya back out into the grueling storms of the night to survive and fend for yourself?


tdoczi let me clarify the only willing to tent. I will not pay to hop from hut to hut every night. I will stay at shelters, or tentsites. I would prefer to sleep in my tent every night, but if logistically a shelter space is the only space, I am not above it, I just really prefer my tent. I am open to spending 1 night in a hut and figured from others comments that Lake of the clouds hut is the hut you wanna pick logistically.
As others have stated the weather in the Whites is all over the place due to the location and how the air masses react with each other in that area. One big thing I noticed is that on most of the AT clouds are not an issue as they are usually up in the sky, but in the Whites a lot of the peaks are in clouds and it gets cold up there. You can literally be walking in a valley with it mild and sunny only to ascend into a cloud where it's in the 40s with a stiff wind. Mt Washington in particular can be very fickle if you hit it when it's in the clouds, which I think is most of the time.

As for the huts, I'm not sure what your opposition is but to each his own. I was very averse to the huts until I stayed in one (I also like my privacy in my tent), and it's just a much easier way to go through the whites in my opinion...but again to each his own. I think your plan of staying at Lake of the Clouds if you are only going to do 1 hut is a good one. It's about 15 miles between the tentsites (Nauman an Osgood) on either end of that ridge, and that hike is tough. Add in the X-factor of potential bad weather and it might be really tough.


In regards to rolling into a hut without a reservation, you will most definitely get the boot unless you get one of the work for stays or pay for an open bunk if there even is one. I saw it happen at multiple huts, and talked to several unhappy thrus that had gotten the boot. Lake of the Clouds has the most capacity of all the huts, and has the "Dungeon" underneath it, which looks similar to a typical AT shelter on the inside. So there is a little more room, but it's also the only place to stay legally up in that area so it fills up quick.

[peakbagger]

IMHO the Dungeon is a major step down from the worst shelter. It smells like an outhouse and apparently is used as one in the winter. Yes its out of the weather but anyone starting at Mitzpah is going to get to Lakes way too early unless the weather is nasty. Far better to shoot for the Jewell trail option and suck up a mile and 1000 feet downhill.

[Slo-go'en]

IMHO the Dungeon is a major step down from the worst shelter. It smells like an outhouse and apparently is used as one in the winter. Yes its out of the weather but anyone starting at Mitzpah is going to get to Lakes way too early unless the weather is nasty. Far better to shoot for the Jewell trail option and suck up a mile and 1000 feet downhill.

But what's the capacity of the Jewell trail option? 1 tent, 2 tents... Hate got get there and find there's no room. That's the problem with these "stealth" sites, not much space and if someone gets there before you do...

[full conditions]

But what's the capacity of the Jewell trail option? 1 tent, 2 tents... Hate got get there and find there's no room. That's the problem with these "stealth" sites, not much space and if someone gets there before you do...
Excellent point but, in a sense, that's the problem w/ most of the backcountry sites along the AT in the Whites - especially summer and fall weekends. I was up at Liberty Springs last summer - got in pretty early (just after lunch) and by 3:00 every spot was filled to overflowing (caretaker asked if I wouldn't mind doubling up on the platform my partner and I were sharing - we said fine) and they ended up turning away dozens of folks. This was on a July Wednesday. I asked the caretaker if this happened very often and he told me that it gets noticeably worse every year. The only campsites we had that wasn't full or nearly so between Glencliff and Pinkham were Eliza Brook and Osgood.

[peakbagger]

Actually the Jewell trail option is bigger than many folks think. The woods are just open enough and tall enough to the south side of the trail that a small tent will fit under trees. The folks using it usually are there only dusk to dawn so the average day hiker doesn't even see the use. That is assuming there has not been a blowdown in recent years as I haven't been up there for about 4 years.

[Slo-go'en]

Actually the Jewell trail option is bigger than many folks think. The woods are just open enough and tall enough to the south side of the trail that a small tent will fit under trees. The folks using it usually are there only dusk to dawn so the average day hiker doesn't even see the use. That is assuming there has not been a blowdown in recent years as I haven't been up there for about 4 years.

When I was at Neuman last June and along the Franconia ridge, I was amazed at the tangle of down trees from the big October storm. Neuman was hit hard. Countless trees down. The Gray Knob trail between the Knob and Crag was impassable from down trees, so that whole side of the range took a big hit. There have been several big winds this winter too, so finding a tangle of down trees is a good possibility. The Jewel trail where it would be possible to camp is at the general elevation of where the most damage was done.

[peakbagger]

Sounds like an excuse to visit the Jewel trail once things melt and dry off.

[Slo-go'en]

Sounds like an excuse to visit the Jewel trail once things melt and dry off.

Yep, I haven't been up that way in many years.

[RiverbirchHiker]

Grafton notch to Rangeley isn't too bad. Excpet for the climb up Baldpate, and the little bump called Moody mountain and the climb up Mt Blue. But other then that, yea easy pezzy. I really like the Bemis range once you get up on to it. ME17 the rest of the way to Rangeley is the easy bit....


....hanover to the skiway is a cakewalk. (18 miles or so) from after mt cube to glencliff ditto (10 miles). thats 28 of those 70 miles that are in fact as easy (if not easier) than NY/NJ/CT.

I hiked these areas last September and got a great (and unexpected) comparison between southern Maine and near Hanover.
I visited southern Maine and did a bunch of day hikes, including Old Speck, Baldpate, Bemis, and Sugarloaf (headed north a bit). Wonderful places and the above treeline on Baldpate was one highlight. (And, I hiked Mt. Blue previously. Short fun hike that's just all up.)

On the way home heading south from Maine, I spent a day in Hanover. In the afternoon, I hiked a loop on the AT heading out north from Hanover.
Instead of turning with the trail, I was heading straight up--or trying to. Rocks? I wanted to climb them. The trail would skirt a wet or steep area and I would naturally walk right into it. Because in southern Maine, the trail always does these ridiculous things. You get used to it. Crazy ups and then downs. Major scrambline. I couldn't believe how tame the trail was near Hanover! It didn't even seem like hiking that day--no real energy expended.

[Gambit McCrae]

I knwo as good as anybody that on day 2 the plan is out the window. But i have spent some considerable time trying to write out a plan. Most here know i am aggressive for miles so i have tried to plan according but when the mileage teetered between super short or a little long i chose long. I am thinking that i may need to add a zero after the slack pack out of lincoln.
Also please keep in mind that my end result I am trying to be mindful of a 2020 compeltion given 2 weeks to hike in 2020. I know that not finishing in 2020 is realistic and that 1 more week may be needed in 2021 if i dont do that week in 2020.

https://whiteblaze.net/forum/blob:https://whiteblaze.net/88fd0cda-1931-439f-932a-168d9d7d06bd

[Gambit McCrae]

Sorry picture posted sideways im on my cellphone

[Slo-go'en]

Well, rough out the schedule as best you can. In the end, weather and terrain will dictate what you end up doing. The first two weeks of September can be really nice so hopefully weather won't be a factor. The tropical storms usually don't show up until later in the month. But like a friend of mine likes to say "hard tell'en, not know'en".

The tough one is going to be Neuman to Osgood. You need ideal weather for that. That's 15 rough miles where it's hard to do more then 1 MPH for much of it. With breaks you can be looking at a nearly 15 hour day.

Just make sure you have enough food to break it into two days if it comes to that. You can get a meal at the summit of Washington, but loosing an hour there can be a problem. Taking a break at Lakes slows you down too. Remember, it starts to get dark fairly early around here in early September and once you start down from Madison your in the shadow of the mountain. Once down into the ravine and in the dense pine forest, it gets real dark real fast.

Smarts mountain has a fire tower you can climb and is great for seeing the sunset. Shame not to stay there.

Bring plenty of water to Velvet rocks. The water there is a long ways off and hard to find. I didn't find it until the next day and it was a detour to get to. The blue blaze trail from the shelter seemed to dead end at the top of a cliff. Apparently, the water is somewhere at the bottom of it. And since the collage is nearby and just starting up for the year, it will be busy there on a Friday night. Tenting there is pretty marginal. You could end up on a pretty good slope.

[tdoczi]

I knwo as good as anybody that on day 2 the plan is out the window. But i have spent some considerable time trying to write out a plan. Most here know i am aggressive for miles so i have tried to plan according but when the mileage teetered between super short or a little long i chose long. I am thinking that i may need to add a zero after the slack pack out of lincoln.
Also please keep in mind that my end result I am trying to be mindful of a 2020 compeltion given 2 weeks to hike in 2020. I know that not finishing in 2020 is realistic and that 1 more week may be needed in 2021 if i dont do that week in 2020.

https://whiteblaze.net/forum/blob:https://whiteblaze.net/88fd0cda-1931-439f-932a-168d9d7d06bd
heres what i think i would do

hanover to velvet rocks (i'm guessing youre getting to hanover at the end of the day

velvet rocks to firewardens (or camp somewhere short of there if you cant make it (regs anyone?), but thats doable. velvet rocks to trapper john youre going to get there at 2pm and sit around staring at the trees)

firewardens to glencliff. i'm guessing you dont want to say at the hostel. (camping regs around glencliff anyone?) itll be a day that starts quasi hard but the second half you'll think you're back in MD. even if you camp a mile or two short of firewardens the night before this is still doable. esp if you dont want to go to the hostel and camp a mile or two short of glencliff.

i guess the other thing is how you feel about camping potentially where there is no water to be found. i personally have no issue with it and do it all the time.

glencliff to eliza brook. this is going to be hard if you stop short of glencliff the day before. and youre going to deal with a gnarly section coming down moosilauke and then somewhat going back out of kinsman notch but once out of the notch its easy. and as ive mentioned before the climb up the glencliff side of moosilauke really isnt anything big.

next day is a tough call, i'd be tempted to do eliza brook to liberty spring and try to stop for a bit to resupply in lincoln without staying over. this could be avoided if you do whatever resupply you can in glencliff or send a box maybe.

liberty spring to guyot, maybe beyond if theres somewhere someone knows of to camp legally.

liberty spring to crawford notch (try for nauman maybe but that feels like a stretch)

crawford notch to lakes

lakes to pinkham (anywhere to camp? i think i'd just stay two nights at joe dodge and zero there myself. or go into gorham for a day off)

here i'm tempted to say if you took a day off try for pinkham to rattle river, but i really dont know how feasible that is, though there are people that do pinkham to rt 2 in a day. lets call it pinkham to the imp. itll be a short-ish day. after the imp the rest of the way to rattle river is mostly pretty easy though.

imp to rt 2 (you probably dont want to be back in town/hostel again so soon. how far in from the road do you have to be to camp near rt 2? i feel like the terrain is conducive to doing so)

rt 2 to carlo col. this is the one people are going to say i am crazy for suggesting, and maybe in lieu of the next day it isnt worth doing, but its doable. but lets just say to gentian pond. thats going to be a done at 2pm day though.

gentian pond to that place at the trail north end of the notch where everyone obviously camps (i assume its legal but who knows)

and then there to grafton notch.

thats 12 days if youre counting that first day as a day. 13 if you take a zero. by 2 weeks do you mean 14 days or does it include all 3 weekends (16 days)? by your itinerary i'm guessing 16 days

if so, then i dont know where to stay for the night in grafton notch, and my hike from there to rangely mostly involved walking until it was dark and camping wherever (for sure i remember one of them being on top of old blue) until you get to sabbath day pond shelter.

[Berserker]

I knwo as good as anybody that on day 2 the plan is out the window. But i have spent some considerable time trying to write out a plan. Most here know i am aggressive for miles so i have tried to plan according but when the mileage teetered between super short or a little long i chose long. I am thinking that i may need to add a zero after the slack pack out of lincoln.
Also please keep in mind that my end result I am trying to be mindful of a 2020 compeltion given 2 weeks to hike in 2020. I know that not finishing in 2020 is realistic and that 1 more week may be needed in 2021 if i dont do that week in 2020.

https://whiteblaze.net/forum/blob:https://whiteblaze.net/88fd0cda-1931-439f-932a-168d9d7d06bd
My only comment about your mileage is that's pretty aggressive. To give you a good comparison, you are planning on doing thru hiker mileage or possibly even beyond thru hiker mileage through that area. I tried this on my first foray into the Whites and actually kept up with a group of thrus for 4 days. Then I had to bail and take 2 days off because I had overdone it to the point where I thought I might have to just call it for the section. After 2 days I came up with an alternate plan to where I was able to at least get some more miles in before I had to go home. Original miles planned were 120ish and I ended up doing somewhere in the mid 70s.

Anyway, if you feel you are in shape to do that then go for it.

[Slo-go'en]

My comments interspersed in the quote



heres what i think i would do

hanover to velvet rocks (i'm guessing youre getting to hanover at the end of the day

velvet rocks to firewardens (or camp somewhere short of there if you cant make it (regs anyone?), but thats doable. velvet rocks to trapper john youre going to get there at 2pm and sit around staring at the trees

The trail between Velvets Rocks and Trapper John is pretty mucky. A lot of boggy, swampy trail. It was really primeval looking to me. The trail winds it's way around private land which is not practical to build on. If you look at the route on a map, it's a bit of a drunken cow path. Until you get past Moosilauke your on a narrow corridor crossing private land. The only camping opportunity between Trapper John and The Fire wardens cabin would be the parking lot at the base of Smart mountain. However there is an old garage about 3/4 of a mile up the fire wardens trail which could be used, and from the looks of it, often is. The climb up Smart mountain is a bit of a grunt, especially the last half mile where it gets good and steep and it would be at the end of a long day.
firewardens to glencliff. i'm guessing you dont want to say at the hostel. (camping regs around glencliff anyone?) itll be a day that starts quasi hard but the second half you'll think you're back in MD. even if you camp a mile or two short of firewardens the night before this is still doable. esp if you dont want to go to the hostel and camp a mile or two short of glencliff.

There is a shelter at the bottom of Moosiluke, not far from the road crossing to the hostel.

i guess the other thing is how you feel about camping potentially where there is no water to be found. i personally have no issue with it and do it all the time.

glencliff to eliza brook. this is going to be hard if you stop short of glencliff the day before. and youre going to deal with a gnarly section coming down moosilauke and then somewhat going back out of kinsman notch but once out of the notch its easy. and as ive mentioned before the climb up the glencliff side of moosilauke really isnt anything big.

next day is a tough call, i'd be tempted to do eliza brook to liberty spring and try to stop for a bit to resupply in lincoln without staying over. this could be avoided if you do whatever resupply you can in glencliff or send a box maybe.

liberty spring to guyot, maybe beyond if theres somewhere someone knows of to camp legally.

liberty spring to crawford notch (try for nauman maybe but that feels like a stretch)
That's a big stretch. Just getting to Guyot would beat the hell out of you.
crawford notch to lakes

lakes to pinkham (anywhere to camp? i think i'd just stay two nights at joe dodge and zero there myself. or go into gorham for a day off)

Only at the Osgood tent site, unless you drop down to one of the RMC camps or the Valley Way tent site.
here i'm tempted to say if you took a day off try for pinkham to rattle river, but i really dont know how feasible that is, though there are people that do pinkham to rt 2 in a day. lets call it pinkham to the imp. itll be a short-ish day. after the imp the rest of the way to rattle river is mostly pretty easy though

Pinkham to Imp is not an short-ish day.
imp to rt 2 (you probably dont want to be back in town/hostel again so soon. how far in from the road do you have to be to camp near rt 2? i feel like the terrain is conducive to doing so)

People camp near the road on the south side next to the river, but is definitely not legal. Once you cross the road and start up Mt Hayes, your committed until you reach the Trident col tent site.
rt 2 to carlo col. this is the one people are going to say i am crazy for suggesting, and maybe in lieu of the next day it isnt worth doing, but its doable. but lets just say to gentian pond. thats going to be a done at 2pm day though.

Unless you leave pretty early in the morning, your not going to get to Gentian pond by 2. BTW, the view down the Mt Washington valley from the shelter is one of the best views from a shelter on the AT. RT 2 to Carlo is a really big day. You have a bunch of mountains to go over and some crazy notches in between.
gentian pond to that place at the trail north end of the notch where everyone obviously camps (i assume its legal but who knows)w

That would be another crazy hard day. I've camped at the north end of the notch several times and you know me, I don't do illegal sites.
and then there to grafton notch

Good luck there too. You just beat Gambit up pretty good. I know he's reasonably young and a strong hiker, but still...
thats 12 days if youre counting that first day as a day. 13 if you take a zero. by 2 weeks do you mean 14 days or does it include all 3 weekends (16 days)? by your itinerary i'm guessing 16 days

if so, then i dont know where to stay for the night in grafton notch, and my hike from there to rangely mostly involved walking until it was dark and camping wherever (for sure i remember one of them being on top of old blue) until you get to sabbath day pond shelter

You could camp in the parking lot or go the 2.5 miles up to the Baldpate shelter. There's a bit of a flat section just before the parking lot which has potential, but you'd have to do some work to clear a spot.

[LittleRock]

I'm loving this thread! Going to bookmark it for when I get to the Whites probably 5-6 years from now.

I'll have to remember to scale back Gambit's mileage by about 30-40%. I averaged about 15 MPD in MD.

[tdoczi]

My comments interspersed in the quote
I'm not quoting all of that to make a corrections lol

for one, "liberty spring to crawford notch" was a typo. should have read guyot to crawford

second- how close is osgood to pinkham notch? is it close the way ethan pond is close to crawford notch or is it closer? i would think somewhere around pinkham notch thered be some place to legally camp (like with a mile or so of the lodge) but i could be wrong.

third- by pinkham to imp being short-ish i mean i think (i'll confess i've never done tried it) you'd be done by 4pm. thats earlier than i like to stop but theres probably nowhere to go. making rattle river could turn into a flailing around in the dark with headlamps affair if you try it.

fourth- direction might make some difference, but i didnt gentian pond to route 2 and it took me from a normal morning start until 2pm. RT 2 to carlo is what seems most thru hikers manage and they seem to do it pretty easily at that.

fifth- yeah gentian to the north end of the notch might be a stretch, again not something ive personally tried but piecing together my experience from different similar hikes i think i wouldnt have a problem trying it. could always stop at full goose or maybe theres another legal camping spot between them. i actually camped at the south end of the notch right off the trail (down the notch trail from the AT turning uphill) i doubt it was legal but it worked in a pinch. but the north end of the notch to grafton is easy once you get up the arm. old speck might be the easiest 4K summit in all of new england.

[Slo-go'en]

Second: There is no camping between Osgood and the Imp shelter. It might be possible to camp along the wildcat ridge, but that a big if.

It's 4.6 miles from Osgood to Pinkham and is reasonably easy, maybe 2 hours tops. The last couple of miles to Pinkham is on an old road which slabs the side of the hill. Remeber this is an exceptionaly high useage area.

All I can say is I have lived at the foot of Mt Adams for 30 years and hike this area a lot. I kind of know what I'm talking about.

[Lynnette]

Its a great time of year. People walk all over this state. They love their mountains. I think the bus will drop you off at the COOP in Hanover. And you camp and start in the woods behind the soccer field. Begin hiking slow, get in with the altitude and enjoy the way. Pay attention to water sources. We dug out several that others said were dry. But if you listen you can hear water under the rocks in places. The idea shouldnt be how many miles but you are in NH! Then ME! Some of the coolest geology and plants you will ever walk in. It even smells wonderful. Gorham bus will get you back to Logan. It looks like forever on a road map, but people do drive it to give you a ride thru ME and NH. And there are shuttles $$. You do need effective rain gear and dont skimp on your allowed 3 pairs of socks. I purchased the national geographic map which really gives a great display of where you are and what is around you. Have fun.

[tdoczi]

Second: There is no camping between Osgood and the Imp shelter. It might be possible to camp along the wildcat ridge, but that a big if.

It's 4.6 miles from Osgood to Pinkham and is reasonably easy, maybe 2 hours tops. The last couple of miles to Pinkham is on an old road which slabs the side of the hill. Remeber this is an exceptionaly high useage area.

All I can say is I have lived at the foot of Mt Adams for 30 years and hike this area a lot. I kind of know what I'm talking about.
well then i definitely advise staying at joe dodge or getting yourself into gorham. no matter how hard pinkham to imp is, osgood to imp will be harder. so if you stay at osgood, then whats the next day exactly?

its interesting what i've observed in this thread, the only time you call something easy is when someone else is saying something different. the easiest 4.6 miles one can imagine, when tagged on to 13 other miles, isnt so easy. i guess it goes to approach to hiking. if youre trying to plan full days squeezing on an extra couple of miles isnt in the cards. if you're taking a a lackadaisical approach where most days end early then it is.

and for sure you know tons. we also all pretty much know you hike slower thana good many of us. not a judgement, just an observation.

[Slo-go'en]

Well, we're just going to have to wait 6 months to find out if Gambit finds your optimistic time/distance is more accurate then my more pessimistic estimates. I just know the typical section hiker has a hard time achiving an average 1.5 mph pace through here. With camping options pretty much limited to designated sites, that limits what you can do in a day. Squeezing in those extra couple of miles at the end of the day isn't a good option in these parts.

[rickb]

well then i definitely advise staying at joe dodge or getting yourself into gorham. no matter how hard pinkham to imp is, osgood to imp will be harder.

Though some refuse to believe it (how can this be!) legal camping spots can be found on the AT/0ld Jackson road between Osgood and Pinkham — so long as you camp outside of the Cutler River Drainage and pay attention to your map and where roads, facilities and boundaries are.

[tdoczi]

Though some refuse to believe it (how can this be!) legal camping spots can be found on the AT/0ld Jackson road between Osgood and Pinkham — so long as you camp outside of the Cutler River Drainage and pay attention to your map and where roads, facilities and boundaries are.

i figured as much but mr "i've lived at the foot of mt adams since the days of the Davis family" didn't think so (i'm just teasing Slo')

,

[tdoczi]

Well, we're just going to have to wait 6 months to find out if Gambit finds your optimistic time/distance is more accurate then my more pessimistic estimates. I just know the typical section hiker has a hard time achiving an average 1.5 mph pace through here. With camping options pretty much limited to designated sites, that limits what you can do in a day. Squeezing in those extra couple of miles at the end of the day isn't a good option in these parts.

my serious prediction- if he tries to follow the itinerary he posted yesterday he will not stop at 2pm on the first full day at trapper john shelter (which, barring a crazy late start, is what time he'll get there)

at that point his planned itinerary is out the window and who knows what he'll end up doing.

[Slo-go'en]

Though some refuse to believe it (how can this be!) legal camping spots can be found on the AT/0ld Jackson road between Osgood and Pinkham — so long as you camp outside of the Cutler River Drainage and pay attention to your map and where roads, facilities and boundaries are.

Yea, but is it worth the effort to find such a place? Legal and practical are way too different things.

[tdoczi]

Yea, but is it worth the effort to find such a place? Legal and practical are way too different things.
if you arent just looking to ho-hum along, dont want to pay to stay at the lodge and realize that osgood to the imp isnt feasible then yes, it absolutely 100% is.

[4eyedbuzzard]

As Berserker and Slo-go-en noted, some of the mileage plans being discussed are pretty optimistic. They are more like what trail hardened thru-hikers might do after spending the last 3+ months hiking 1750 miles up and down the AT. Planning daily distances like the 17 miles from Glencliff to Eliza Brook, well, that's going to be a really tough day. Resupplying in Lincoln on the way to Liberty Springs will take several hours in the middle of another planned 12 mile day. And it will get dark quickly on the way up to Liberty Springs, and getting there late could well be another problem if it's already full. The AT in NH is one of the most unique and scenic trails anywhere in the whole world. Rushing through it just to log "X" number of AT miles and not scheduling enough time to enjoy it would seem to be a shame.

[Leapfrog^]

Enjoy, but curb your expectations once you hit the Mahoosucs. The Whites north of Pinkham Notch are no picnic either.

[tdoczi]

As Berserker and Slo-go-en noted, some of the mileage plans being discussed are pretty optimistic. They are more like what trail hardened thru-hikers might do after spending the last 3+ months hiking 1750 miles up and down the AT. Planning daily distances like the 17 miles from Glencliff to Eliza Brook, well, that's going to be a really tough day. Resupplying in Lincoln on the way to Liberty Springs will take several hours in the middle of another planned 12 mile day. And it will get dark quickly on the way up to Liberty Springs, and getting there late could well be another problem if it's already full. The AT in NH is one of the most unique and scenic trails anywhere in the whole world. Rushing through it just to log "X" number of AT miles and not scheduling enough time to enjoy it would seem to be a shame.

well for the record i think i would not resupply in lincoln.

glencliff to eliza brook is doable, no one is going to talk me out of it. and not just by super grizzly trail hardened thru hikers. its basically the same distance as kinsman notch to franconia notch and is, despite moosilauke's reputation, probably an easier hike.

i did glencliff to kinsman notch, then went to lost river, then went and hiked from franconia notch (from the flume parking lot to be exact) up to lonesome lake and back in one day. the next day i hiked kinsman ridge, taking the shorter way down from lonesome lake and stopping on that side of the notch. i would say i was at eliza brook by noon.

a 7am start from glencliff would get me to eliza brook by 5pm. i have little doubt of this. once i got rolling if things were going well and it was a nice day i'd dilly dally and finish at 6. now if walking for 10-11 hours isnt your cup of tea then ok, but it isnt hard to do if it is.

there are several other spots in the whites i wouldnt try this. i wouldnt try to do, for instance, franconia notch to guyot, and thats a shorter distance. I also have my doubts about anyone doing nauman to osgood (also shorter) in one day. moosilauke and the first half of kinsman just aren't that hard.

as for rushing, i probably sat on top of both moosilauke and south kinsman for 30-45 minutes each when i hiked them.

[Slo-go'en]

if you arent just looking to ho-hum along, dont want to pay to stay at the lodge and realize that osgood to the imp isnt feasible then yes, it absolutely 100% is.

It doesn't get you significantly closer and you have to trash around in the woods looking for a spot in an area where trashing around in the woods isn't so easy. And you'd probably have to do it in the dark.

[tdoczi]

It doesn't get you significantly closer and you have to trash around in the woods looking for a spot in an area where trashing around in the woods isn't so easy. And you'd probably have to do it in the dark.
i honestly can not rectify how the guy who wants to keep all days at around 10 miles per day can claim that 4.6 miles isnt significantly closer. by your figuring thats nearly half a days hike. on what plane of reality is half a day's hike not significant? 4.6 miles is either a long way or it isn't, pick one. stop trying to have it both ways.

[tdoczi]

It doesn't get you significantly closer and you have to trash around in the woods looking for a spot in an area where trashing around in the woods isn't so easy. And you'd probably have to do it in the dark.
i also still dont know what you would suggest doing the next morning when you got up and started out from osgood. you have 4.6 miles to pinkham notch or 18 to imp shelter. we both agree 18 to the imp shelter isnt happening, so we're back at where can you camp when you get to pinkham anyway.

[RiverbirchHiker]

...... the easiest 4.6 miles one can imagine, when tagged on to 13 other miles, isnt so easy. i guess it goes to approach to hiking. if youre trying to plan full days squeezing on an extra couple of miles isnt in the cards. if you're taking a a lackadaisical approach where most days end early then it is.
This is a gem!! Thanks. I'm thinking of this idea in more general terms--like in almost every AT hiking trip I plan.

I've had it both ways.. Left wondering where the time/daylight went and why I couldn't tack on a couple extra miles to get to xx (town/shelter/back to vehicle, etc.). OR Realizing I had a lot of extra time at camp or flexibility in where I wanted to end the day.

Focusing on that binary question is something I haven't consistently asked....yet: Am I maxing out miles on this day? Or, am I going light?

[Slo-go'en]

i also still dont know what you would suggest doing the next morning when you got up and started out from osgood. you have 4.6 miles to pinkham notch or 18 to imp shelter. we both agree 18 to the imp shelter isnt happening, so we're back at where can you camp when you get to pinkham anyway.

Ideally you go to Carter Notch. Or you go to Pinkham, hitch down to Gorham, do a resupply and then go over to the Rattle river hostel or hike into the Rattle river shelter. That's your NERO. Then hike up to the Imp shelter for a night, then across the ridge and down back to Pinkham.

[rickb]

i honestly can not rectify how the guy who wants to keep all days at around 10 miles per day can claim that 4.6 miles isnt significantly closer. by your figuring thats nearly half a days hike. on what plane of reality is half a day's hike not significant? 4.6 miles is either a long way or it isn't, pick one. stop trying to have it both ways.

You could consider taking a stroll from Osgood tent site down a blue blue blaze to Route 16, then glide up the relatively easy 19 Mile Brook Trail to the AT at Carter Hut. You would miss the chance to take a shower at Pinkham, but also a potentially agonizing trudge straight up Wild Cat. Not sure about miles, but I think it has to be way shorter. Other shortcuts to Imp definitely are.

As for camping, I have to think that necessity can be the mother of invention. If the weather is good you don’t even need to set up a tent.

Regardless of how you get over Wild Cat (is the chair lift running?) I am thinking there could be plenty of legal flat spots near the intersection of the 19 Mile Brook Trail and the AT (bit foggy on that) Just a thought.

[tdoczi]

Ideally you go to Carter Notch. Or you go to Pinkham, hitch down to Gorham, do a resupply and then go over to the Rattle river hostel or hike into the Rattle river shelter. That's your NERO. Then hike up to the Imp shelter for a night, then across the ridge and down back to Pinkham.

carter is out cause gambit doesnt want to do that, so now youve left yourself with a 4.6 mile day.

[tdoczi]

You could consider taking a stroll from Osgood tent site down a blue blue blaze to Route 16, then glide up the relatively easy 19 Mile Brook Trail to the AT at Carter Hut. You would miss the chance to take a shower at Pinkham, but also a potentially agonizing trudge straight up Wild Cat. Not sure about miles, but I think it has to be way shorter. Other shortcuts to Imp definitely are.

As for camping, I have to think that necessity can be the mother of invention. If the weather is good you don’t even need to set up a tent.

Regardless of how you get over Wild Cat (is the chair lift running?) I am thinking there could be plenty of legal flat spots near the intersection of the 19 Mile Brook Trail and the AT (bit foggy on that) Just a thought.

well if we're constructing a non-AT specific hike in the whites then theres about a zillion possibilities

i would think theres legal camping near the intersection with 19 mile brook as well, but others who i presume know better say not.

[tdoczi]

carter is out cause gambit doesnt want to do that, so now youve left yourself with a 4.6 mile day.

and if youre going to town when you get to pinkham then why camp at osgood? i mean that 4.6 miles isn't significant...

[rickb]

well if we're constructing a non-AT specific hike in the whites then theres about a zillion possibilities

i would think theres legal camping near the intersection with 19 mile brook as well, but others who i presume know better say not.

Here is a map showing the FPA. And to beat others to the punch, yes it is very true that just because a spot is legal does not me it is practical for all people and kinds of campers.

Forest Protection Area:

44828

And for comtext:
44829

[egilbe]

The Presis are a good place to do nearos. Some days are going to be shorter. Take advantage of them. Osgood to Pinkham, Nearo. Pinkham to Imp, doable, but long. Imp to Rt 2, Nearo. Rt2 to Gentian, or Carlo col. Carlo Col to Speck Pond, or Rt26, or Bald Pate shelter. Depends on how you feel. Be flexible. I hiked it during Hurricane Harvey. The days were shorter thanI liked, but I didn't die sliding down Mahoosuc Arm, either. The climb from Speck Pond to the summit of Old Speck is steep. It seems like a shorter version of the Arm. The views are so much better tho. To say that old Speck is one of the easier 4k's is kinda funny. From 3300', yeah, Old Speck is easy. Rt 26 side starts around 1400'. From that side, it isn't so easy.

[tdoczi]

The Presis are a good place to do nearos. Some days are going to be shorter. Take advantage of them. Osgood to Pinkham, Nearo. Pinkham to Imp, doable, but long. Imp to Rt 2, Nearo. Rt2 to Gentian, or Carlo col. Carlo Col to Speck Pond, or Rt26, or Bald Pate shelter. Depends on how you feel. Be flexible. I hiked it during Hurricane Harvey. The days were shorter thanI liked, but I didn't die sliding down Mahoosuc Arm, either. The climb from Speck Pond to the summit of Old Speck is steep. It seems like a shorter version of the Arm. The views are so much better tho. To say that old Speck is one of the easier 4k's is kinda funny. From 3300', yeah, Old Speck is easy. Rt 26 side starts around 1400'. From that side, it isn't so easy.
i've done it from the grafton notch side.

so what 4K is easier? "easier" and "easy" arent the same thing.

but old speck, from either side, is noticeably not as hard as the other 4Ks i've done.

[egilbe]

I think all the Presis are easier than Old Speck. Hell, I think all the Maine 4K's I've done were harder than anything in NH, although I still 10 to do, so my opinion may change

Ok, maybe not Wildcats. I was in a coma from exhaustion and forgot about that one.

[tdoczi]

I think all the Presis are easier than Old Speck. Hell, I think all the Maine 4K's I've done were harder than anything in NH, although I still 10 to do, so my opinion may change

Ok, maybe not Wildcats. I was in a coma from exhaustion and forgot about that one.
well i agree the 4Ks further up in Maine i've done are harder than much of NH, but i would also say theyre harder than old speck. the gencliff side of moosilauke might be close to as easy. both of them are just a lot of uphill walking. not a lot of using hands or making big uncomfortable steps up. mostly good, easily walked on trail that happened to be uphill. i can walk on stuff like that all day, doesnt bother me.

[Slo-go'en]

The problem with Old Speck from the notch is every time you think your getting close to the top, you still have a long way to go. The problem from the Speck pond side is all those big boulders you first have to scramble over, then those steep, exposed granite ledges can be really slippery when wet. It's a real scary climb in not so good weather. It's really spectacular in good weather though.

[Slo-go'en]

well if we're constructing a non-AT specific hike in the whites then theres about a zillion possibilities

i would think theres legal camping near the intersection with 19 mile brook as well, but others who i presume know better say not.

The 19 mile brook trail intersects the AT at Zeta pass. A no camping area. However, that doesn't stop people even though the only place to put up a tent is right in the middle of the trail intersection. There is no way your going 200 feet off the trail there. Or even 10 feet.

I though I might have a picture of the pass when I was up there last summer, but apparently not, just pictures of the summit of Mount Hight.

[Slo-go'en]

I think we've beat this subject pretty much to death.

The bottom line is this: Do yourself and the enviorment a favor and stay at the designated sites or huts and stay on the damn trail. If that means a "short" day, that's just the way it is and you have to schedual for it. Some of those "short" days might be short in miles but not in effort.

The Whites are an excetionally high traffic/useage area with a lot of enviormentallly sensitve areas and difficult terrain.

[rickb]

W
The 19 mile brook trail intersects the AT at Zeta pass. A no camping area. However, that doesn't stop people even though the only place to put up a tent is right in the middle of the trail intersection. There is no way your going 200 feet off the trail there. Or even 10 feet.

I believe you are a bit mixed up.

The 19 Mile Brook Trail intersects the AT in Carter Notch — not far from the hut.

It is the Carter Dome Trail That intersects the AT at Zeta Pass (a clearly marked Forest Protection Area).

Here is a map with the FPAs for reference.

While you would need to move far enough down the 19 Mile Brook Trail a bit to be 1/4 mile away from the hut, I believe the Trail is outside of any wilderness area so a strict adherence to the 200 foot requirement would not be required.

44838

[Slo-go'en]

W

I believe you are a bit mixed up.

The 19 Mile Brook Trail intersects the AT in Carter Notch — not far from the hut.

It is the Carter Dome Trail That intersects the AT at Zeta Pass (a clearly marked Forest Protection Area).

Here is a map with the FPAs for reference.

While you would need to move far enough down the 19 Mile Brook Trail a bit to be 1/4 mile away from the hut, I believe the Trail is outside of any wilderness area so a strict adherence to the 200 foot requirement would not be required.

44838
Okay sorry your right, the Carter dome trial branches off the 19 mile brook to go to zeta pass, while the brook trail continues on to the hut.

In any event, both trails head steeply up from the junction, good luck camping off the trail on the side of the mountain on a 60 degree slope in thick pine growth with boulders littering the ground. Like I said, legal doesn't mean practical or even possible.

[rickb]

How far down the end of the 19 Mile Brook Trail do you think you would need to walk to find a tent site?

[Slo-go'en]

How far down the end of the 19 Mile Brook Trail do you think you would need to walk to find a tent site?

All the way to the bottom.

[egilbe]

To the intersection of 19mile Brook and Carter Dome trail, it flattens out pretty good. But, you are only a couple miles from Pinkham Notch.

[tdoczi]

To the intersection of 19mile Brook and Carter Dome trail, it flattens out pretty good. But, you are only a couple miles from Pinkham Notch.
but if one is doing an AT hike thats a couple miles you wont be hiking and youve gotten over wildcat and found a place to camp before doing the carters.

i was kind of having a head scratch over the idea that the 19 mile brook trail went up carter dome myself, to be honest. good one Slo'.

[rickb]

I am pretty sure I have seen places to pitch a tent along the 19 Mile Brook Trail just outside of the FPA, or maybe on the Wildcat Ridge section of the AT in that same general area.

Not 100% sure though - never camped there myself.

One thing to keep in mind is that so long as you are 1/4 mile from the hut, there is no requirement that you head off the tail 200 feet in that area (it is not a designated wilderness) — so you could camp at a spot right along the AT or the 19 Mile Brook Trail if you found one.

Finding sites (albeit marginal ones) just outside a 1/4 mile FPA is rather common, as it is at Trail junctions.

Another thing to keep in mind is that camping at spots like that will stick in the craw of some folks — even when they are perfectly legal places, they may not realize iit.

[Slo-go'en]

One thing to keep in mind is that so long as you are 1/4 mile from the hut, there is no requirement that you head off the tail 200 feet in that area (it is not a designated wilderness) — so you could camp at a spot right along the AT or the 19 Mile Brook Trail if you found one.
Finding sites (albeit marginal ones) just outside a 1/4 mile FPA is rather common, as it is at Trail junctions.
Another thing to keep in mind is that camping at spots like that will stick in the craw of some folks — even when they are perfectly legal places, they may not realize iit.

Rick, you like to point out the legality of camping just off the trail, I like to point out it's not easy to do. Heading down a side trail with the hope you might find a suitable place to camp at the end of a long, hard day when it's starting to get dark is one heck of a risk since these spots are pretty scarce.

[rickb]

Rick, you like to point out the legality of camping just off the trail, I like to point out it's not easy to do. Heading down a side trail with the hope you might find a suitable place to camp at the end of a long, hard day when it's starting to get dark is one heck of a risk since these spots are pretty scarce.

Good post!

[tdoczi]

Rick, you like to point out the legality of camping just off the trail, I like to point out it's not easy to do. Heading down a side trail with the hope you might find a suitable place to camp at the end of a long, hard day when it's starting to get dark is one heck of a risk since these spots are pretty scarce.
which is why conversations like this take place or the guides that have exhaustive lists of camping spots exist.

youre correct, i wouldnt plan to wander down 19 mile brook trail just to check out and see if theres anywhere to camp at the end of a day. but if i know there are places?

the aforementioned spot on the trail north end of mahoosuc notch is perhaps the best example of this. youd be crazy to plan for trying to find a spot near there not knowing if it were there, but knowing it is there makes planning a whole heck of a lot different.

[Slo-go'en]

which is why conversations like this take place or the guides that have exhaustive lists of camping spots exist.

youre correct, i wouldnt plan to wander down 19 mile brook trail just to check out and see if theres anywhere to camp at the end of a day. but if i know there are places?

the aforementioned spot on the trail north end of mahoosuc notch is perhaps the best example of this. youd be crazy to plan for trying to find a spot near there not knowing if it were there, but knowing it is there makes planning a whole heck of a lot different.
That site at the north end of the Notch is well established and is noted in the guide. It's also the only established non-designated camping spot between Gorham and Grafton notch. Yea, you could camp at the south end, but it's not really an established site and is pretty marginal.

If you don't see a tent site listed in the guide, your probably not going to find one along that stretch of trail.

[tdoczi]

That site at the north end of the Notch is well established and is noted in the guide. It's also the only established non-designated camping spot between Gorham and Grafton notch. Yea, you could camp at the south end, but it's not really an established site and is pretty marginal.

If you don't see a tent site listed in the guide, your probably not going to find one along that stretch of trail.

the companion doesnt list that site as it (and presumably some other guides) only list named and designated sites. the official guidebook that comes with the maps i'm 90% sure doesnt either.

i'm sure some other guides list that site, as well as many others that are not named or designated. do those guides say anything about 19 mile brook or pinkham notch having usable, non designated but legal campsites? i have no idea. its why i've been asking.

[Slo-go'en]

the companion doesnt list that site as it (and presumably some other guides) only list named and designated sites. the official guidebook that comes with the maps i'm 90% sure doesnt either.

i'm sure some other guides list that site, as well as many others that are not named or designated. do those guides say anything about 19 mile brook or pinkham notch having usable, non designated but legal campsites? i have no idea. its why i've been asking.
AT guide has the Mahoosuc notch site listed. It shows only designated sites through out the Whites. The "stealth" sites along the AT in the Whites are few and far between and are typically just big enough for one person in a bivy sack. Hardly worth noting.

The AT Guide shows the location of many well established tent sites along the AT.

The ATC Companion would only show official sites, since it is an official publication. Guthook will list legal, well established non-designated sites.

[Berserker]

Rick, you like to point out the legality of camping just off the trail, I like to point out it's not easy to do. Heading down a side trail with the hope you might find a suitable place to camp at the end of a long, hard day when it's starting to get dark is one heck of a risk since these spots are pretty scarce.
This is a very good high level summary of the issue with a lot of the posts in this thread. On most of the AT one can just roll on into an area thinking they'll find a spot (where it's legal to do this of course), and can wander around a bit up and down the AT or side trails and usually find something in a reasonable amount of time without expending a lot of energy. In the Whites and Southern ME this isn't the case. A lot of terrain literally just does not have room for one to lay down on the ground much less set up a tent, and wandering around is much more strenuous and time consuming. I remember trying to step off trail one time when I was somewhere in the Whites to use the bathroom and the pine trees were so close together I was having trouble getting in between them.

So anyway, like I said I concur with your post. There's lots of people that get in on various threads and say that something is easy (hanging a bear line, digging a cat hole with a stick, etc.) and it's really not. I know most people on here know that, but for inexperienced folks that may be reading these threads this is giving them bad advice.

[tdoczi]

This is a very good high level summary of the issue with a lot of the posts in this thread. On most of the AT one can just roll on into an area thinking they'll find a spot (where it's legal to do this of course), and can wander around a bit up and down the AT or side trails and usually find something in a reasonable amount of time without expending a lot of energy. In the Whites and Southern ME this isn't the case. A lot of terrain literally just does not have room for one to lay down on the ground much less set up a tent, and wandering around is much more strenuous and time consuming. I remember trying to step off trail one time when I was somewhere in the Whites to use the bathroom and the pine trees were so close together I was having trouble getting in between them.

So anyway, like I said I concur with your post. There's lots of people that get in on various threads and say that something is easy (hanging a bear line, digging a cat hole with a stick, etc.) and it's really not. I know most people on here know that, but for inexperienced folks that may be reading these threads this is giving them bad advice.
no one on this thread said anything about it being easy.

but one or two people seem to be of the opinion its not even worth discussing.

[Gambit McCrae]

Hanover, NH to Grafton Notch, ME




Type

Start

End

Description

Miles

Total

Days

Total

Elevation Gain




Pack

Hanover, NH

Kinsman Notch


52

52

3.5

3.5

16,300




Hostel

The Notch Hostel



52


3.5





Slack

Kinsman Notch

Franconia Notch


17.1

69.1

1

4.5

5,280




Hostel

The Notch Hostel



69.1


4.5





Pack

Franconia Notch

Crawford Notch


27.7

96.8

2

6.5

9,120




Pack

Crawford Notch

Pinkham Notch


26

122.8

2

8.5

9,580



Hostel

Rattle River Hostel



122.8


8.5





Slack

Pinkham Notch

Gorham, NH


21

143.8

1

9.5

7,140




Hostel

Rattle River Hostel



143.8


9.5





Pack

Gorham, NH

Grafton Notch, ME

Average of 11.7 MPD

31.1

174.9

3

12.5

11,540






As I know it all (or most) goes out the window on day 1 of the trip, I decided to try and map this out on a section by section basis, allotting estimated days for each section instead of a day by day itinerary as I KNOW that is more or less wasting my time. Doing it this way helped me get a really good grasp of "the notches" where as they all blurred together before

This schedule does not reflect any zeros but also does not account for all 15 days of the trip. The zeros can be inserted at any of the hostel stays

[Gambit McCrae]

That other thread got me thinking about clothes for the first time.
Aug 30th - Sept 15th, 2019

Long sleeve thermal camp shirt (camp)
zip off pants (camp and or bad weather)
down puffy
down Beanie
hiking shorts
hiking short sleeve shirt
2 pair of PhD smartwool socks
rain jacket
sunglasses
2 bandana's

15* UL Montbell Bag
Exped Synmat 7
duplex

arc blast

crocs


Pretty much same as every other 2 week trip except my long sleeve is typically cotton and I carried a 30* bag thru VT this time last year

[tdoczi]

Hanover, NH to Grafton Notch, ME



Type
Start
End
Description
Miles
Total
Days
Total
Elevation Gain



Pack
Hanover, NH
Kinsman Notch

52
52
3.5
3.5
16,300



Hostel
The Notch Hostel


52

3.5




Slack
Kinsman Notch
Franconia Notch

17.1
69.1
1
4.5
5,280



Hostel
The Notch Hostel


69.1

4.5




Pack
Franconia Notch
Crawford Notch

27.7
96.8
2
6.5
9,120



Pack
Crawford Notch
Pinkham Notch

26
122.8
2
8.5
9,580


Hostel
Rattle River Hostel


122.8

8.5




Slack
Pinkham Notch
Gorham, NH

21
143.8
1
9.5
7,140



Hostel
Rattle River Hostel


143.8

9.5




Pack
Gorham, NH
Grafton Notch, ME
Average of 11.7 MPD
31.1
174.9
3
12.5
11,540





As I know it all (or most) goes out the window on day 1 of the trip, I decided to try and map this out on a section by section basis, allotting estimated days for each section instead of a day by day itinerary as I KNOW that is more or less wasting my time. Doing it this way helped me get a really good grasp of "the notches" where as they all blurred together before

This schedule does not reflect any zeros but also does not account for all 15 days of the trip. The zeros can be inserted at any of the hostel stays

3.5 days for hanover to kinsman notch is a bit too high
1 day for pinkham notch to gorham is optimistic bordering on unreasonable.
and someone will no doubt say no way, but gorham to grafton notch is more like a 2.5. so if you say pinkham notch to grafton notch in 4 days (which you basically have) i'd say sure.

otherwise, yeah, thats pretty on. of course as discussed above there are camping problems that complicate this, especially at crawford notch.

[Gambit McCrae]

3.5 days for hanover to kinsman notch is a bit too high
1 day for pinkham notch to gorham is optimistic bordering on unreasonable.
notch.

3 days for Hanover to kinsman?

Pinkham to Gorham as a slack pack still unreasonable? Rattle river hostel advertises this stretch as a tough slack pack.

[peakbagger]

Pinkham to Gorham is a tough slackpack, thru hikers do it all the time and usually take a zero the next day as they are beat up. There are two very steep climbs (some of the steepest in the whites) and a two steep drops plus a bunch of puds along the ridgeline. It is definitely sunrise to sunset. If you have the bucks, Carter Notch Hut is a nice option to break it into two reasonable days. Carter Notch is the least popular of the AMC huts so you may be able to get a last minute reservation. If not you need to drop off the AT at C notch and go downhill a mile or so to find flat spots to camp that are legal from Carter Notch or there are a few patches of softwood along the ridge between South Carter and North Carter where you can just scoot under the branches and set up a tent just off the side of the trail. These are dry camp spots. Note in later summer this entire ridgeline doesn't have reliable water except at Carter Notch and Imp Shelter.

[tdoczi]

3 days for Hanover to kinsman?

Pinkham to Gorham as a slack pack still unreasonable? Rattle river hostel advertises this stretch as a tough slack pack.
i've seen and heard of plenty of people who do it but i don't think i'd want to. from pinkham over wildcat and then up carter dome is a nightmare. the thought of doing that and then walking 12 more miles or whatever it is.... yeesh. though the last 4 or so is super easy.

interesting to see how your plans have evolved, have you abandoned "i want to sleep in my tent every night" ?

[Gambit McCrae]

i've seen and heard of plenty of people who do it but i don't think i'd want to. from pinkham over wildcat and then up carter dome is a nightmare. the thought of doing that and then walking 12 more miles or whatever it is.... yeesh. though the last 4 or so is super easy.

interesting to see how your plans have evolved, have you abandoned "i want to sleep in my tent every night" ?

Ive never been against staying in hostels, i have been against “hut to hut” from the beginning

[Gambit McCrae]

Less then 30 days away now...I feel good about the trip. I am not as physically fit as I had hoped I would be for this trip but oh well...it is what it is.

I am prepared to take it day by day, make plans on the fly, cut days a little short or push on thru the evening. MPD goal is set at 11 with 2 zeros. My biggest hope is for good weather. The rest will fall into place

[QuietStorm]

Good idea. You won't have as much daylight as I did in June but flexibility in the Whites is a virtue.

[steve_zavocki]

Gambit, my daughter did Hanover to Lincoln about 3 weeks ago. I did the rest of the Whites and the wildcats in 2018.

Here are a couple random tips:
- The Indian place in Hanover is really, really good if you like that type of food.
- You can get stove fuel at the True Value hardware but they close at 5:30.
-Wachipauka "pond" is a great place to camp, one of the best place ever on the trail for me. It is really a lake. The water is perfect for swimming and there are several nice camping spots. It is worth planning around.
- There is a really nice stealth spot by a stream at mile 1778.1. It is a about a mile short of the Hexacuba shelter.
- Don't miss the side view from North Kinsman where you have a wonderful view of Francona Ridge.

[Scrum]

I am pretty sure I have seen places to pitch a tent along the 19 Mile Brook Trail just outside of the FPA, or maybe on the Wildcat Ridge section of the AT in that same general area.

Not 100% sure though - never camped there myself.

One thing to keep in mind is that so long as you are 1/4 mile from the hut, there is no requirement that you head off the tail 200 feet in that area (it is not a designated wilderness) — so you could camp at a spot right along the AT or the 19 Mile Brook Trail if you found one.

Finding sites (albeit marginal ones) just outside a 1/4 mile FPA is rather common, as it is at Trail junctions.

I just went through there last week. The site at the junction of the AT and 19 Mile Brook Trail at the bottom of Wildcat is inside the FPA. There are a couple of other sites, just outside the FPA, one on the AT going up to Carter Dome and another one on the Wildcat River Trail. Ask the croo at the hut - they will give you directions. Also seems like a good spot for Work for Stay - when I stayed there the thru doing WFS just did some kitchen cleaning in the evening - no work in the morning.

[Gambit McCrae]

Well its time for the second guessing of gear choices to set it. Just a quick recap of itinerary...
hanover to grafton notch sept 1st thru 15th
i am planning to take my WM 30* which i honestly feel warmer in than my montbell UL 15*
light down hooded puffy(ghost whisperer)
zip off pants
long dri fit shirt
button up short sleeve hiking shirt
nike shorts
buff
altras
duplex
Arcteryx zeta rain jacket

So my questionable gear would be
down beanie
light gloves
bag
leggings
Rain pants

These questionables are all items that i have always either mailed home on a zero day or not used and carried the whole way included VT this same date frame last year
that being said, i am treating NH as a whole new animal.

Looking at the mt washington weather data as a benchmark for the trip, it looks like the lowest i could see temp wise is 36* (average low for September). And historically it has only dipped as low as 29* a couple of nights the first 2 weeks of september in the past 4 years.

I am okay being chilly a few nights if it means not having to carry questionable for 2 weeks. For me its just as much of not having to keep up with stuff as it is about the weight.

I need some thoughts and opinions

[RiverbirchHiker]

....Pretty much same as every other 2 week trip except my long sleeve is typically cotton and I carried a 30* bag thru VT this time last year

I'm curious about choosing cotton for your typical long sleeve.

I think you described it as your long sleeve thermal camp shirt--for typical hikes, but you're switching it out for this NH trip. Did I get that right?

Isn't there a loss and extra weight when clothes can't have multiple uses? I'm thinking that a cotton shirt can't be used comfortably or safely in a lot of circumstances out on a backpacking trip.
Thanks--it's always good to hear what others folks are choosing gear/clothes-wise....
Good luck on your trip! I might be up in the Whites around the same time, and this thread is encouraging me to finalize my own plans.

[Slo-go'en]

It's suppose to be getting nippy about now, but it's not. It's going to be in the 80's most of next week. I have a feeling early September will be a lot like what late August is suppose to be like. Fall was late to start last year and that seems to be the trend.

That said, at elevation and a clear night it can get pretty chilly, maybe even frost. Legging are a good idea, along with a long sleeve base layer top. Mostly for sleeping. I never use rain pants.

I think you'd want a long sleeve shirt too. Even if it's not especially cold, the wind chill above tree line can be brutal and it's usually windy. Often a good long sleeve shirt will be all you need as a rain jacket would be too warm and sweaty.

[Slo-go'en]

I'm curious about choosing cotton for your typical long sleeve.
I have used a Dickie work shirt for years. It's 65/35 polyester/cotton. Just enough cotton to make it comfortable and durable, but still dries out reasonably quickly. It's also reasonably wind proof. In the summer I use it as a light jacket and in the fall as my hiking shirt.

[peakbagger]

Wind is always a possibility and frequently its coming a front going by which means wet. The standard recommendation which has a lot of validity is have enough gear to cover all you skin with wind resistant gear for your core. NH Fish and Game has their 10 essentials list and it has the same items included. I carry an OR lightweight balaclava and mittens year round. Some folks use their spare socks in place of mittens, but I use poles and need a thumb. Days are getting noticeably shorter and we are starting to get Canadian weather patterns nosing in an out of the region. So the choice is cold and clear at night of hot and soupy during the day. The balaclava can be used as a beanie. I used it as much at night and early AM as I used it during the day.

[Gambit McCrae]

Thanks for the replys folks, I edited in a coupled missing items - my long sleeve shirt will be a drifit. And I will be taking my buff. I left those things out.

[Deacon]

Well its time for the second guessing of gear choices to set it. Just a quick recap of itinerary...
hanover to grafton notch sept 1st thru 15th
i am planning to take my WM 30* which i honestly feel warmer in than my montbell UL 15*
light down hooded puffy(ghost whisperer)
zip off pants
long dri fit shirt
button up short sleeve hiking shirt
nike shorts
buff
altras
duplex
Arcteryx zeta rain jacket

So my questionable gear would be
down beanie
light gloves
bag
leggings
Rain pants


I am okay being chilly a few nights if it means not having to carry questionable for 2 weeks. For me its just as much of not having to keep up with stuff as it is about the weight.

I need some thoughts and opinions

Normally, south of Vermont, your questionable items aren’t necessary. Once into the Whites and especially Maine, those are required items, IMHO. But if you take rain pants, the leggings aren’t needed.

This photo was taken on July 13, 2017 at the height of summer. The day was cold, wet, with sleet.

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[Slo-go'en]

Leggings are better to sleep in then rain pants, so I'd go with the leggings, regardless.

[jigsaw]

i bring winter hat and gloves as well as windprotection EVERYTIME any season in the whites and maine now.
i learned the hard way. got caught in a hail storm with high winds coming down kinsman and was flirting with hypothermia
by the time in made it down.
and this was on a july 4th weekend. dont be me

[egilbe]

We plan on going South from Mooselauke towards Hanover 8/31 to 9/4. There's a chance we'll cross paths at some point.

[Gambit McCrae]

We plan on going South from Mooselauke towards Hanover 8/31 to 9/4. There's a chance we'll cross paths at some point.

Sweet! Looks like Craig Mains will be in this stretch too on his sobo leg of his yoyo. Weather is looking pretty nice so far!

[Astro]

Sweet! Looks like Craig Mains will be in this stretch too on his sobo leg of his yoyo. Weather is looking pretty nice so far!

Just remember in the Whites it can drastically change really quick!

[Gambit McCrae]

Well its blast off day. Thanks everyone for the input, Ill try and update as the days go by. Hoping that the hurricane/ storms dont effect us too much!

[Gambit McCrae]

Oh i slept in the boston logan int airport! Lol im on the dartmouth coach bus to hanover now. After all the delays didnt get to boston till 1am. Uber was only $140. Got him lined up, he shows up, looked at the trip and said “no thanks, too late for me”. So he canceled the charge and off he went. Tried to get another uber and the price jumped to $350! My buddy and I said the hell with it, slept at the end of a long airport staff building and bought 2 bus tickets for $38 lol we will be there about 10:30. What an adventure so far lmao

[swatsullivan]

Oh i slept in the boston logan int airport! Lol im on the dartmouth coach bus to hanover now. After all the delays didnt get to boston till 1am. Uber was only $140. Got him lined up, he shows up, looked at the trip and said “no thanks, too late for me”. So he canceled the charge and off he went. Tried to get another uber and the price jumped to $350! My buddy and I said the hell with it, slept at the end of a long airport staff building and bought 2 bus tickets for $38 lol we will be there about 10:30. What an adventure so far lmao

That’s crazy about the Uber!! Good luck and happy hiking!!

[Gambit McCrae]

Day 1- Hanover to moose mt shelter(tented)
Day 2- moose mtn to smarts summit(tented)
Day 3- smarts mtn to 25a

Woke up in heavy rain this morning and slogged down smarts and up and over mt cube. Got out on 25a and headed to barn door hostel. This place is 15 miles off trail but we hitched no problem. (Kinda.) this hostel is absolutely awesome.

[Slo-go'en]

Hate to tell you this, more rain Wednesday and hard to say what, if any, impact hurricane Dorian will have this weekend. Sorry you got stuck in the rain, but we really needed it.

[Gambit McCrae]

Day 4- 25A to rt25 Olivarian Notch.

Slack packing nobo over Moosilauke tomorrow to the notch rain or shine

[Slo-go'en]

Looks like t-storms in the afternoon - good luck. I'd go sobo over Moosilauke if your slack packing it. Easier to go up the treacherous side then down it, especially if you get caught in the storm. Which can be real nasty.

At least it looks like the hurricane will have little or no impact on us. I pity those in the Bahamas. Man, they got devastated.

[Gambit McCrae]

Day 5. Over Moosilauke. Did it in 5 hours. Strong wind and rain on top, tstorm hit us on the way down. It was very sketchy. I wouldn't wish the north side of Moosilauke on my worst enemy.

Tomorrow we slack over the kinsman's. I know its gunna be a long day.

[peakbagger]

Looks like a nice stretch of weather after today (assuming a hurricane doesn't drift west).

[egilbe]

Day 5. Over Moosilauke. Did it in 5 hours. Strong wind and rain on top, tstorm hit us on the way down. It was very sketchy. I wouldn't wish the north side of Moosilauke on my worst enemy.

Tomorrow we slack over the kinsman's. I know its gunna be a long day.

That's not even the worst you are going to hike compared to what's coming up. You are going to have so much fun!

Apparently my gf and we're a few hours behind you. You may have passed us on Saturday camped on a little island in a stream just outside Hanover.

[Astro]

Day 5. Over Moosilauke. Did it in 5 hours. Strong wind and rain on top, tstorm hit us on the way down. It was very sketchy. I wouldn't wish the north side of Moosilauke on my worst enemy.

Tomorrow we slack over the kinsman's. I know its gunna be a long day.

Rain makes a big difference, especially if going NoBo.

[Slo-go'en]

Day 5. Over Moosilauke. Did it in 5 hours. Strong wind and rain on top, tstorm hit us on the way down. It was very sketchy. I wouldn't wish the north side of Moosilauke on my worst enemy.

Tomorrow we slack over the kinsman's. I know its gunna be a long day.

Ya should have listened to me :) Once this front pushes through it will get real nippy - into the 30's at night.

[Gambit McCrae]

Kinsmans done. Did wolf and kinsmans 17 miles in 11 hours. Pretty beat. Short day tomorrow up franconia notch

[Slo-go'en]

Kinsmans done. Did wolf and kinsmans 17 miles in 11 hours. Pretty beat. Short day tomorrow up franconia notch

Nice day for it though. Wish I had been up there.

[peakbagger]

Snow in the forecast for Washington on Sunday

[Gambit McCrae]

As of yesterday my hike is over. I am back in Cookeville, TN after about 70 miles in 6 days. The two main contributing factors were 1 listening to my body before I pushed myself too far. And second is my anxiety. My anxiety was so bad on this trip it finally took a toll on my brain and I couldn't keep waking up dry heaving and throwing up and dealing with the mental game my brain goes thru on these trips. I have some work to do to try and resolve this.

Overall I would say the trip was a success, not the original plan of 2 weeks but then again, how often does the original plan stick? Not very often in my world lol I got a good taste of the whites, some 4k footers, some awesome and not so awesome weather, I can say that I have ascended Moosilauke in a thunderstorm, and my biggest day in the Whites is 17 miles. I met some very nice folks and enjoyed my time when the anxiety would let me. Thank you to everyone who helped me prepare for this trip. I will add a thread detailing my trip but here are a couple!

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[egilbe]

Where did you finish up? Crawford Notch? That's as good a start/stop point as any.

[Gambit McCrae]

Where did you finish up? Crawford Notch? That's as good a start/stop point as any.
Franconia Notch

[Slo-go'en]

Franconia Notch

You got a good taste of the Whites. But the fun really starts on the Franconia/Garfield ridge. It's too bad the weather suddenly turned sour and it looks to stay unsettled for at least most of this coming week.

While this can be the best time to hike around here, it can also be the worst time. I'm keeping an eye out for a decent 3-4 day window before the end of the month to do my fall hike.

[sore ankle]

I got back from my Hanover to Rattle River Hostel section hike last Tuesday. Great hike, tremendous views, lots of rock climbing and boulder hopping, and some STEEP ups and down. Going over Kinsman 13 miles was probably the toughest day. Had fabulous weather 12 of the 14 days--had rain on days 2 (18 miles) and 14 (15 miles). Big thanks to Peakbagger and Slo-go'en for their advice and guidance in making plans. 298 miles left to Katahdin.

[egilbe]

Franconia Notch

Franconia Notch to Crawford arguably has the best views along the AT. The Pemi Wilderness shouldn't be missed.

[Slo-go'en]

Franconia Notch to Crawford arguably has the best views along the AT. The Pemi Wilderness shouldn't be missed.

Provided you have a nice day. Not today for sure.

[egilbe]

Sunny here on the coast

[Gambit McCrae]

I know i was right at the gems of the Appalachian Trail. But I cant explain how much my anxiety consumes me on the trail, it always has but this trip with the added difficulty, it absolutely consumed me. I will be back but I have to fix this brain thing first

[Berserker]

As of yesterday my hike is over. I am back in Cookeville, TN after about 70 miles in 6 days. The two main contributing factors were 1 listening to my body before I pushed myself too far. And second is my anxiety. My anxiety was so bad on this trip it finally took a toll on my brain and I couldn't keep waking up dry heaving and throwing up and dealing with the mental game my brain goes thru on these trips. I have some work to do to try and resolve this.

Overall I would say the trip was a success, not the original plan of 2 weeks but then again, how often does the original plan stick? Not very often in my world lol I got a good taste of the whites, some 4k footers, some awesome and not so awesome weather, I can say that I have ascended Moosilauke in a thunderstorm, and my biggest day in the Whites is 17 miles. I met some very nice folks and enjoyed my time when the anxiety would let me. Thank you to everyone who helped me prepare for this trip. I will add a thread detailing my trip but here are a couple!

Sorry to hear that anxiety derailed your trip (I have some experience with this myself). But hey man, look at the bright side at least you knocked out another 70 miles in your quest to finish.

One thing I might suggest is that you rethink your whole strategy for your travel/hike itinerary for each trip, and maybe work in a little down time. I've read all your posts over the years and you are packing a lot of travel/hiking into a small window of time on these trips.

That's one thing I did in the latter half of my completion via sections. I used to have everything planned almost to the minute in the earlier sections, and then I started adding in 1 - 3 days of "float" time in the latter sections. These were days where if I needed a zero, something went wrong during the travel or whatever else came up it left me time to still complete the mileage I had planned.