Waterproof Breathable?

[Feral Bill]

What is your opinion of waterproof breathable fabrics/clothes?

[QiWiz]

What is your opinion of waterproof breathable fabrics/clothes?

None work as I would like them to when I'm active (hiking).
In camp, some allow for layers inside to dry out as body heat pushes the moisture out. Of these, I like eVent the best that I have tried.
Just my 2 cents, YMMV.

[Time Zone]

I chose the last option, because IME, when it wets out after 30 minutes, or even as quickly as 10, it's simply not waterproof, so it's a misnomer. And I don't see how it could breathe either while the face fabric is saturated in water. Let alone breathe freely enough in dry conditions to keep up with sweating.

Seems like stuff that is theoretically wonderful, but the reality is that it's ineffective and impractical.

[Tipi Walter]

My Arcteryx rain jacket is Pro Shell goretex---it's purpose is to keep me alive in hypothermic conditions whereby my torso stays wet but warm. Warm wet is good, cold wet kills.

Goretex obviously is not perfect but I'd rather use a good gtx rain jacket than a unbreathable urethane coated shell or one of those heavy rubberized jackets sailors favor.

[AllDownhillFromHere]

Someone explained to me once that the breathability comes in when there's a temperature delta across the fabric; the higher temperatures inside (you) vs. the cooler temperatures (outside) provide the force needed to drive the moisture out.
If true, I think this is why goretex, etc sucks in summer/warm weather.

[Dogwood]

What is your opinion of waterproof breathable fabrics/clothes?

Varies conditionally.

When we are working it well it tends to work well in apparel.

Too often we too heavily rely on breathability of WP apparel though in maintaining comfort.

Too often we take ourselves out of the comfort equation seeking to point fingers away from ourselves which typically results in blaming gear when perhaps we should be examining in greater detail our own abilities in using apparel optimally.

Far outweighing breathability in WP breathability apparel comfort is proactively mechanically venting.

When I stopped resorting to knee jerk blaming gear for not always being personally comfortable I started down a deeper path of being better able to thermoregulate...and staying drier.

[T.S.Kobzol]

What is your opinion of waterproof breathable fabrics/clothes?

Well, i sweat and stay wet even without a jacket , in my wool undergarments and those are as breathable as can be [emoji28] so any additional shell over those wont help.

But in general it will be a great barrier during rain and will hold the warmth in...but thank god for pit zippers...


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[Time Zone]

Someone explained to me once that the breathability comes in when there's a temperature delta across the fabric; the higher temperatures inside (you) vs. the cooler temperatures (outside) provide the force needed to drive the moisture out.

Might that not simply condense the interior moisture against the inside of the colder WP/B fabric?

I think it might work better with a humidity delta rather than a temperature delta. Just a W.A. guess.

[blw2]

I voted "I'll pass" but was on the fence of voting what a waste.
I fell into believing the pitch for a long time many years ago I guess not long after they started marketing the stuff. Back when I was doing a lot of hunting and fishing....gloves and boots mainly. Seemed like the stuff would be water proof-ish for a period of time, not very long...then would fail and leak...and I never really had the sense it breathed all that much.
Now I understand a bot more about how it is supposed to work and that it really only works in a narrow range of situations. Back then I didn't understand it, except to think the sales pitch sounded plausible.
I slowly gravitated to coming around almost to the idea that andrew skurka presented in his book regarding water proof boots/shoes vs faster to dry trail runners. Eventually came to hike in the rain with my raingear, which consisted of stripping off the shirt and hiking bareback when warm enough. Heck I was getting wet anyway, from sweat, from a leak, or from condensation. After reading his explanation of breathable and all of this it really clicked...makes so much more sense now.

[MuddyWaters]

Nothing is breatheable enough for strenuous exertion.

Fabric like Columbias outdry has at least made dwr treated clothing obsolete now though, which aids in breathability in wet conditions.

[Traveler]

Too often we take ourselves out of the comfort equation seeking to point fingers away from ourselves which typically results in blaming gear when perhaps we should be examining in greater detail our own abilities in using apparel optimally.

This may be the core issue, knowing how to use this type of gear is not always a simple process given changing variables during a day. I recall having a heck of a time trying to balance internal moisture and warmth in cold weather until I figured out what fabrics I could use in layers and the amount of venting necessary so the outer layer could work.

[garlic08]

A main factor in my vote (middle choice) is price.

If someone were to keep me happily supplied with breathable gear, I'd wear it all the time. I got tired of spending hundreds of dollars on jackets and have them delaminate at the shoulders, or torn in a road rash incident on the bike.

If one is aware of the limitations of the stuff, it usually works as advertised. Out here in the arid West, that's most of the time.


Someone explained to me once that the breathability comes in when there's a temperature delta across the fabric; the higher temperatures inside (you) vs. the cooler temperatures (outside) provide the force needed to drive the moisture out.
If true, I think this is why goretex, etc sucks in summer/warm weather.
As I understand it, it's not delta T--it's delta RH.

[moldy]

Gortex can be a death trap. The stuff works OK..... UNLESS you are hiking. If you are hiking all day in the rain it will be a total failure. At the end of the day in cold weather you will be soaked to the skin and unless you are ready with dry warm clothing you will freeze to death. Plan on it.

[Tipi Walter]

Well, i sweat and stay wet even without a jacket , in my wool undergarments and those are as breathable as can be [emoji28] so any additional shell over those wont help.
But in general it will be a great barrier during rain and will hold the warmth in...but thank god for pit zippers...
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You don't mention hiking in cold weather (like in a 35F rainstorm) but the secret to using a good gtx jacket is to wear it over minimal baselayers---a light top or a simple t-shirt if you can get away with it---thereby allowing these minimal layers to get wet so when you get to camp you can ditch them and the jacket for your warmth torso layers.


Gortex can be a death trap. The stuff works OK..... UNLESS you are hiking. If you are hiking all day in the rain it will be a total failure. At the end of the day in cold weather you will be soaked to the skin and unless you are ready with dry warm clothing you will freeze to death. Plan on it.

My experience IS JUST THE OPPOSITE as my gtx rain jacket has saved my butt on hundreds of terrible weather backpacking trips. A death trap? Naw, no way. The stuff works fantastic, especially when hiking.

The purpose of a good rain jacket is, as mentioned, to keep you warm while hiking in miserable conditions---whether you are wet or not underneath. As you say---I may be soaked under the jacket but my hiking exertion is keeping my core warmth contained within the jacket.

Your last comment ---" . . . soaked to the skin and unless you are ready with dry warm clothing you will freeze to death. Plan on it."

This is alarmingly misleading as 99.9% of all backpackers have dry warm clothing in their packs so when they get to camp and set up their shelter all they have to do is get in the tent and remove their life-saving jacket and wet baselayers and don the dry stuff. The HARD PART is putting on the cold wet stuff on the next morning along with the jacket for another day of backpacking.

Your comment could apply to DAYHIKERS but usually the end of the day for them means standing next to their cars at the trailhead.

How valuable is a good rain shell? I like what expert backpacker Chris Townsend has to say when asked what's some of the most valuable stuff he carries in his pack. He says---

"What three items are always in your rucksack?"---"Always? Waterproof jacket is one---I feel insecure without it, even on desert walks." Backpacker Chris Townsend.

Amen, pass the pear slices and walnuts. Don't leave the car without it!!

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Cranbrook-School-Backpacking/i-rZcZxmR/0/6b703d71/L/DSC00071-L.jpg

[OwenM]

I think it might work better with a humidity delta rather than a temperature delta. Just a W.A. guess.
High humidity is the greatest challenge our clothing and insulation face. All this marketing about stuff designed for mountaineering and "the toughest conditions on Earth" is pure crap. The conditions might indeed be tough from a human perspective(and gear not performing have the highest consequences!), but low temps and low humidity are where fabrics are *least* challenged, and are allowed to perform optimally as a result.
Shoot, I've used cotton shorts, pants and t-shirts in the Sierras and SW Utah with no complaints, and if cotton works, just about anything will.
What "works" in low humidity often flops in the Southeast, though. On the flip side, anything that does well here works much better out West.
I went through more clothing combos in one day this week at ~100% humidity in TN, with fog, rain, wind, various degrees of exertion and barely 5F temperature range, than 7 days in CO, where temps changed by as much as 40F and elevation by >4k'. Because the humidity was typically <25%. It makes all the difference.

I don't have a fixed opinion on WPB gear. It's all relative to the conditions it's used in, and the strategy for using it.
Here in the South, the most important part of my "rain gear" is a set of dry baselayers to change into in camp-which is sometimes the only place my WPB gear gets used in warm rainy weather, too.

[Tipi Walter]

OwenM---My reference point is always in the high humidity and cold of the Southeast Mountains---and I still 100% recommend a good gtx jacket. I guess Arcteryx has both spoiled me and convinced me.

[Deadeye]

I don't have a fixed opinion on WPB gear. It's all relative to the conditions it's used in, and the strategy for using it.

Excellent point, and one strategy that works for me is to combine WPB gear with an umbrella.

[hikermiker]

Waterproof Breathable is an Oxymoron just like Army Intelligence.

US Army 1668-70.

[Feral Bill]

Waterproof Breathable is an Oxymoron just like Army Intelligence.

US Army 1668-70. That's a long hitch.

[sethd513]

I like eVent for my bivy and so far having good luck with neoshell for a coat. Wife has pants and coat. These are cold winter applications. In the summer I just don’t care anymore.


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[peakbagger]

I do have Pro Shell Goretex winter gear and it works pretty well but its not magic. It does move moisture from perspiration from inside the jacket to the outside of the shell. The thing many folks do not realize is the material also has a DWR coating on the outside that is essential to keep the water from soaking in. It causes water to bead on the surface and run off rather then soaking in. Unfortunately the DWR coating tends to wear out far quicker then the jacket. The Goretex membrane can get clogged with oils and grease. The net result is the gear needs to be kept clean with an appropriate cleaning product and occasionally re-coated.

[Time Zone]

My experience with DWR is that it indeed beads up water beautifully - like a freshly waxed car. For about 30 minutes. Then it wets out.

Next time out it'll do the same thing, except that maybe after 28 minutes it wets out. And so it goes.

So I'm not entirely convinced that wetting out is a function of DWR wearing off. I think it's a bit more complicated.

[Dogwood]

I do have Pro Shell Goretex winter gear and it works pretty well but its not magic. It does move moisture from perspiration from inside the jacket to the outside of the shell. The thing many folks do not realize is the material also has a DWR coating on the outside that is essential to keep the water from soaking in. It causes water to bead on the surface and run off rather then soaking in. Unfortunately the DWR coating tends to wear out far quicker then the jacket. The Goretex membrane can get clogged with oils and grease. The net result is the gear needs to be kept clean with an appropriate cleaning product and occasionally re-coated.

YUP. Add to that grime, minerals and oils in sweat, hygiene products, lotions and careless insect repellent applications. Observe how many on WB and in the field revel in stating how filthy, and probably oily, they get. This affects apparel performance. Then we the USER not only misuses WPB apparel through sub optimal applications we further increase performance fall offs by not maintaining it. This is observed even by hikers with vast diverse experience some with highly acclaimed credentials, and very popular websites and authors of outdoor and adventure "how to" books and articles.


What happens next? We fall habitually back to placing the root cause blame on that which is outside of us - it must be this WPB apparel crap is all BS.

Yeah, no kidding you're WPB membrane is lacking. You have not done what was required to maintain it. Is that all the gear's fault?

[DuneElliot]

Since the places I hike are cold when it rains and I pretty quickly suffer from the cold if it continues too long I prefer non-breathable waterproof everything as I just don't get hot enough to sweat when the weather is that miserable. I will also adjust my speed and hiking intensity if I start getting warm. However, I also carry a second layer pf rain protection with a LW poncho so during brief but intense storms I can keep both myself and the dogs dry while just waiting it out. It is never warm enough in the west during a rain storm to "just get wet" although once it quits you do tend to dry out fairly quickly.

[Cheyou]

https://sectionhiker.com/why-does-dwr-suck/

[Five Tango]

From my experience,my preference is to hike in my Light Heart Gear pvc rain jacket during the day.Awesome pit zips,two exterior zip pockets,two huge interior slash pockets,total weight 7 oz and hard to beat at $99 that I paid for it.Yep,it will get wet with condensate inside;particularly in cold weather.And I sprung for the matching rain mitts which I also like,just wear them over a glove when hiking to prevent a blister.The LHG pvc will get you wet but you will likely be warm as long as you're active.But when you stop you can expect to cool down soon.

So I keep my light weight Frogg Togg in the pack for evening camp wear.Set up camp,remove wet jacket and shirts,put on the sleep clothes upper layer,and cover the night clothes in a dry FT or my little Marmot wind breaker to protect the dry night clothes from moisture,or more importantly,food odor spills as I store it in an odor barrier bag with the day clothes overnight.

My two jacket system still weighs less than my Marmot Precip Jacket and I like the versatility of having some backup and options.Only recently have I tried the rain kilt.I really like the AGG rain kilt although I do feel like an idiot wearing it.:banana(but the kilt is a real solution to stay warm and dry in the precip).

I owned a gore tex jacket some years ago which eventually wetted out on me at an inopportune moment-so much for that.........

[Feral Bill]

From my experience,my preference is to hike in my Light Heart Gear pvc rain jacket during the day.Awesome pit zips,two exterior zip pockets,two huge interior slash pockets,total weight 7 oz and hard to beat at $99 that I paid for it.Yep,it will get wet with condensate inside;particularly in cold weather.And I sprung for the matching rain mitts which I also like,just wear them over a glove when hiking to prevent a blister.The LHG pvc will get you wet but you will likely be warm as long as you're active.But when you stop you can expect to cool down soon.

So I keep my light weight Frogg Togg in the pack for evening camp wear.Set up camp,remove wet jacket and shirts,put on the sleep clothes upper layer,and cover the night clothes in a dry FT or my little Marmot wind breaker to protect the dry night clothes from moisture,or more importantly,food odor spills as I store it in an odor barrier bag with the day clothes overnight.

My two jacket system still weighs less than my Marmot Precip Jacket and I like the versatility of having some backup and options.Only recently have I tried the rain kilt.I really like the AGG rain kilt although I do feel like an idiot wearing it.:banana(but the kilt is a real solution to stay warm and dry in the precip).

I owned a gore tex jacket some years ago which eventually wetted out on me at an inopportune moment-so much for that.........

I believe the very nice LHG rain jacket is coated with something other than PVC. (Just checked. Mine is Silnylon, some other colors are silicon out and urethane inside.) I just got one and eagerly await some awful weather.

[Cheyou]

I’ll pass on the Gore-Tex type clothing . Cost to much , bad for the environment don’t keep me as dry as cheep silnylon and weigh more . Like umbrellas to.

Thom

[Five Tango]

I believe the very nice LHG rain jacket is coated with something other than PVC. (Just checked. Mine is Silnylon, some other colors are silicon out and urethane inside.) I just got one and eagerly await some awful weather.

I stand corrected-mine is the silnylon outside and PU inside.Tougher than a Frogg Togg and the zipper vents are more than ample.I probably would have been better off to remove my outer shirt and hiked in a quick drying polyester long sleeve tee shirt under the jacket.Here's a link if anybody wants to see the site https://lightheartgear.com/collections/rain-gear/products/rain-jacket

[Dogwood]

Brain fart. What's the AGG rain kilt Five Tango?

[towerclimber727]

I haven't found anything yet to be honest...im starting to think it's an oxymoron. I try to stick with breathable as much as possible so it'll at least dry quicker.

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[Traffic Jam]

I guess it depends on your expectations. I never expect to stay 100% dry. If it keeps my relatively dry in a downpour, I’m happy.

[Feral Bill]

I stand corrected-mine is the silnylon outside and PU inside.Tougher than a Frogg Togg and the zipper vents are more than ample.I probably would have been better off to remove my outer shirt and hiked in a quick drying polyester long sleeve tee shirt under the jacket.Here's a link if anybody wants to see the site https://lightheartgear.com/collections/rain-gear/products/rain-jacket

I'll add that they are very easy to work with, and a sponsor of this site. Judy is also a participant here.

[Dogwood]

Never mind. Antigravity gear.

[cmoulder]

I'll add that they are very easy to work with, and a sponsor of this site. Judy is also a participant here.

Agree that LHG is good stuff. I just got a hoodie pack cover (https://lightheartgear.com/products/hoodie-pack-cover) with the thought of pairing it with a FroggTogg raincoat. I have a zpacks cuben poncho, which I prefer in warmer weather — when it doesn't much matter if forearms/hands get wet — but I'm looking forward to some crappy weather to check this out on some quick local hikes. I got the silnylon in blaze orange, which is the brightest, most retina-scorching color I think I've ever seen.

[Ethesis]

Gortex can be a death trap. The stuff works OK..... UNLESS you are hiking. If you are hiking all day in the rain it will be a total failure. At the end of the day in cold weather you will be soaked to the skin and unless you are ready with dry warm clothing you will freeze to death. Plan on it.

mine actually worked.

[MuddyWaters]

My experience with DWR is that it indeed beads up water beautifully - like a freshly waxed car. For about 30 minutes. Then it wets out.

Next time out it'll do the same thing, except that maybe after 28 minutes it wets out. And so it goes.

So I'm not entirely convinced that wetting out is a function of DWR wearing off. I think it's a bit more complicated.

Yep, dirt, sweat, oils all reduce hydrophobic properties.

Luckily, dwr is superceded by permanently repellent fabrics like columbia outdry. This is a new paradigm, dwr is so innefective you wont see it in a few yrs in rainjackets

[Wise Old Owl]

Tested my Mil rated Gortex and 300 weight fleece in some of the worst hikes locally in PA - snow storms, wind, wet, cold and miserable. So long as I kept it clean it works.

[Time Zone]

Yep, dirt, sweat, oils all reduce hydrophobic properties.


The items in question were brand new. No dirt sweat oils unless it came that way from the store. But ...

oils reducing hydrophobic properties? Oil is pretty hydrophobic itself, isn't it? Oil and water?

[Wise Old Owl]

The items in question were brand new. No dirt sweat oils unless it came that way from the store. But ...

oils reducing hydrophobic properties? Oil is pretty hydrophobic itself, isn't it? Oil and water?

Sorry Time Zone, The day before Thanksgiving we had a "coffee meeting" in the morning at a nearby shelter for WB members. As a group we reviewed the video presented below to bring a few up to speed... It's OK that you may have not participated. As I know the intricate details of Gore and Dupont as I am a Dupont BRAT. I thought I would share. My intentions are to help the group understand that dirt and oil will clog the material and it does need to be clean.....Enjoy!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7FsbGhRn6M

[NY HIKER 50]

None work as I would like them to when I'm active (hiking).
In camp, some allow for layers inside to dry out as body heat pushes the moisture out. Of these, I like eVent the best that I have tried.
Just my 2 cents, YMMV.

What he said. I have hiked with a pole and I don't know if anyone has the problem I encountered. With my arm up there is actually water from my sweat that pools in the elbow section and when I put my arm down it comes pouring out. The only time it really works is in hot weather when you are sweating and usually dries from the inside out.

[Dogwood]

Yep, dirt, sweat, oils all reduce hydrophobic properties.

Luckily, dir is superceded by permanently repellent fabrics like Columbia dwr is so innefective you wont see it in a few yrs in rainjackets

Umm could be wrong but eVent and Gore tex and DWR's aren't going to be abandoned in a few yrs. One of the complaints in WP/Breathable tech is DWR's don't last. Yes, that can be the case, but suggesting Columbia Outcry is the answer to infinite usage while being immune to perform fall offs is yet to be seen. :rolleyes: There's a lot of WP marketing hype happening. Columbia is not immune! The flip side that no one is talking about is there's also quite a bit of ANTI WP breathable hype happening!

It amazes me that some well known hiking gurus will talk about about DWR degradation and WP breathable longevity yet are in the habit of using and replacing some of the flimsiest trail runners as often as every 400 trail miles and other gear, including apparel...and have promoted some gear companies that have gone so UL durability, useful lifespans and performance fall offs were highly questionable for the masses' best interests and even among those more advanced users applying high levels of TLC. COULD IT BE there are preconceived pro "getting wet and being happy" notions possibly arrived at from other activities engaged in their typical contextual usage that are playing into cross over perspectives in hiking and backpacking?

NO gear and optimal performances of it lasts forever. Maybe, treating it all that way leads to a more personally responsible, "healthier" and sobering relationship with gear and the outdoors?


There are better quality longer lasting DWR's(up to the User to make the best choice for their situations), better WP fabric tech approaches, BETTER regular maintenance procedures(User care), better layering apps in awareness of the conditions and perhaps alternative and BETTER approaches to hiking under varying conditions... that could be embraced