View Full Version : How Cold is Too Cold?
TwoSpirits
12-11-2018, 20:30
The other day one of my neighbors, who is always quite puzzled by this hiking thing I do, asked me how cold is too cold?
Of course there are too many variables to count, and so we talked about that for a bit. Is it sunny, blue skies, and no wind? I have had the time of my life on days like that with temps far below zero. Or is it cloudy, raining/sleeting/snowing, and blowing? I told her that I have been *very* uncomfortable and close to hypothermic in high 60-degree temps.* I also told her that anything over 75 is too hot, and that I do much less hiking in the summer.
It was a fun and good conversation that eventually included half a dozen other interested friends. We talked about gear and and practice and Know Before You Go....*
In general though, I said I can be comfortable and have fun day-hiking in pretty low temperatures, but that multi-day trips in those temps is a whole 'nother kind of beast. I can deal with nights in the [high] single digits, but haven't done more than two nights at a time; I think more than 3-4 days would be the limit of fun for me. Tipi Walter I am not!
So just for the sake of conversation, what kind of temperatures and conditions are absolute No-Go's for you? Add whatever variables may apply!
soumodeler
12-11-2018, 20:45
Right now, my lower limit is -10* in decent weather, and that is simply due to sleeping gear. I can get that low with what I have. I plan to get the gear to go lower, but not this year. I probably wouldn't go out in those temps in rain though if I could help it. Snow is always a plus for me though.
I can be comfortable sleeping down to a few degrees below 0. However, the absolute worst part of being out in that kind of temp is the duration of the night. In my part of the world, it is dark before 5 PM in the woods. the little fire you can scratch up is not going to put out any more heat than a sparkler. So, it's a hot meal and into the sleeping bag at 5:30. (i am not a night hiker fwiw). Now I usually live by the early to bed, early to rise maxim but going to bed at 5:30 can make for a long night. on my last trip at this temp., I struggled out of my tent to take my usual nocturnal bathroom break. i thought it was 1 or 2 in the morning but when I glanced at my watch, it was only 8:30 PM. That is a long time to be in a sleeping bag.
If the amount of daylight was switched between summer and winter, i have no doubt that winter and winter camping would be my favorite. i love the solitude...and the absence of bugs, mice, snakes and ticks.
bigcranky
12-11-2018, 22:57
+1 on day length. Getting dark by 5 and sunrise at 7:30am kinda sucks.
I've done a couple of weekend trips with temps around zero-F at night. One of them I had a warm enough bag :) the other I froze all night. But that trip I woke up to the sun streaming into camp and warming everything up into the teens pretty quickly, and a warm cup of coffee and some oatmeal had me feeling great. But overall I think one or two nights is the limit for me for that sort of thing.
I can handle down to freezing at night pretty much every night. Don't love it, but can handle it.
Perfect hiking weather for me is 50 at night and maybe 70 during the day. And sunny :) With brief late evening showers to keep the springs running.
LIhikers
12-11-2018, 23:06
My wife and I have done a couple of trips in northern MN where the morning temperature when we climb out of the bag is 25 degrees..........below zero!
It's all about the gear and clothing in those kind of temperatures.
Slo-go'en
12-12-2018, 00:36
I like hiking in the serious cold. I hate camping in the serious cold. Been camped out in 20 below a few times. That was enough.
Feral Bill
12-12-2018, 00:47
I've gone to -35 F in the Adirondacks many years ago. The tip of my nose was chilly at night. I had the right gear and had taken a very useful winter class from the Adirondack Mountain Club. We had fun in the -10 F sunshine hiking around during the days.
Whiteouts and storm fronts quickly dumping ft of snow with high wind gusts and -20*+ prevailing especially with exposure at higher elevations. No need for summiting Mt E or walking to the N pole on this persons lifetime bucket list.
Some of the most memorable surreal times backpacking was in winter at night with snow breaking trail in the forest or in freezing deserts with snow. I really like the Colorado Plateau in winter. I gets me into a Mars feeling.
I grew up on smaller freshwater lakes in southern NJ Pine barrens. They would freeze in winter. I used to sleep out on the ice cowboy camping. I admit I was falling down drunk a few times. The expansion cracks booming and vibrations were the eeriest. The weirdest were animals like foxes or whitetail out on the ice crossing the lakes at 2 a.m. stopping in close to see who was the other animal out on the ice.
Hiking (or more often backcountry skiing) we did in any temperature and condition nature provided, which could be down to -25°C (-30F), high winds or blinding snowstorm.
Mandatory to have a safe spot, a tent, shelter or alpine hut as a goal for the end of the day.
I just hate to idle around in damp clothes in chilly weather for hours, can't stand that.
The nights are really long in winter, you spend 12+hrs in the bag, no way around here.
sethd513
12-12-2018, 06:25
I’d say I’m very comfortable in my bivy at -10. Could push 10 or 15 more with all my current layers and most likely be fine but like everyone has said it’s those long lengths of time in your bag. Boiling water and your eyelids are freezing every time you blink or walking Around to stay occupied. Better bring a bottle to wiz in when it’s that cold.
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peakbagger
12-12-2018, 07:02
My standard answer is that I have the skills and the gear but not the motivation ;). I think others nailed it with the comment that its the length of the nights rather than the temps that keep me from doing multiday hikes. Right now in my part of NH whne you add in shadows from nearby mountains ts dark for 16 to 17 hours out of day. Its definitely harder to stay warm when inactive and at best I can sleep 7 or 8 hours so that is lot of downtime.
garlic08
12-12-2018, 09:00
I have the same discussion with my bicycle commuting friends in Denver. Every year I commuted, my temp threshold went down a few degrees due to changing clothing and getting experience. I ended up being able to cycle in the single digits F. Cycling can be tougher than hiking because of the extra wind chill, and the exposure of fingers and toes.
I've been out on a ski trip when it gets as cold as it ever gets in the US, -28F. That was almost disastrous when the Vibram sole on my boot got brittle and broke.
A group of friends has a traditional New Years Day climb of James Peak with a bottle of sparkling wine. It's fun to pop the cork at 13,000'. We don't have a temp limit, but wind and snow can turn us around. One clear day in the minus 20 F range a couple in the group were too macho to wear a face mask, and ended up losing skin on noses and cheeks.
MuddyWaters
12-12-2018, 09:01
Same as above.
Depends on activity planned and conditions
And duration of cold
Winter camping is not winter hiking is not something else.
Hiking... Night temps not that important, but i like days to be sun and around 30+ for high. Thats going to go in hand with overnight temps to 10F or so usually. Its nice to know you can look forward to warming up during day. Overcast, wind, cold all day ..every day....sucks imo for hiking.
Winter is perfect for night hiking, though. Snow-covered ground on a clear moonlit night... you can see your way without a headlamp just fine. It's quiet unlike any other kind of quiet.
chknfngrs
12-12-2018, 11:39
When you can’t feel your extremeties?
wordstew
12-12-2018, 12:26
Cold and calm...up to -10 no problem, lower if active, lower if nested in your sleep system (so long as I get a warm PM meal)
Cold anything below 25F + wind >10mph bundle up use a good shell otherwise or it's miserable
Cold anything below 45F + wind + any rain plan on being miserable, add a really good rain shell it's tolerable, learn to love it.
Tennessee Viking
12-12-2018, 12:42
When you water bladder freezes within a couple hours.
LittleRock
12-12-2018, 13:37
When you water bladder freezes within a couple hours.
Yes. And your shoes get covered in ice/snow, and they're so stiff you have great difficulty getting your feet back into them in the morning, and your electronics stop working...
Paleolith54
12-12-2018, 13:44
For me, it's not about temps but snow. The more snow, the more fun it is for me to get out in it. Without the snow, I'm getting less interested in cold-weather camping all the time. I had commitments that prevented me from getting into the mountains ahead of Diego, but that's the kind of thing I like to do. I go out to Colorado every spring, too, for some backcountry snowshoeing/camping.
Winter is perfect for night hiking, though. Snow-covered ground on a clear moonlit night... you can see your way without a headlamp just fine. It's quiet unlike any other kind of quiet.
There you go. Dont camp for such long hrs sitting around you all get antsy. Once camp is set up go on a short hike to an overlook, waterfall, etc. Don't arise so early in the morn,sometimes. Sleep in. Start late. Hike late, well after sunset. Once it gets very cold in winter it becomes more obvious whom gravitates towards camping(sitting around) compared to those inclined to be hikers(movers). Winter hiking is a great time to be out especially with some snow and ice, iced up escarpments and waterfalls, crystal clear skies, the only sounds being snow crunching underfoot, our own breathing, the occasional snow laden branch plopping like icy cotton candy out of trees, and wildlife, winter nocturnal wildlife. Awesome. It's made better when it's night time.
Five Tango
12-12-2018, 16:01
For me,nightime temps not lower than freezing and daytime temps at least 50 degrees or more but not over 94F or so.Once the heat index starts pushing 100 I have to tap out.
Slo-go'en
12-12-2018, 16:02
There you go. Dont camp for such long hrs sitting around you all get antsy. Once camp is set up go on a short hike to an overlook, waterfall, etc.
I skied into the Pemigewasset wilderness on a full moon night. Set up camp, got into my bag, eat dinner. As the moon got higher and lit up the woods, had to go out and ski around. It was beautiful. And cold. Got back to the tent an hour or two later, all sweaty and had burned up dinner. Froze my butt off the rest of the night since I didn't have another change of clothes or more food and the bag which I didn't re-stuff was now ice cold. It was a -15 or -20 that night. At first light, I packed up and got the heck out of there and it took a long time warm myself up again.
So, if you get the urge to go wandering around at night, be sure you have extra food and clothes!
TwoSpirits
12-12-2018, 16:40
I can be comfortable sleeping down to a few degrees below 0. However, the absolute worst part of being out in that kind of temp is the duration of the night. In my part of the world, it is dark before 5 PM in the woods. the little fire you can scratch up is not going to put out any more heat than a sparkler.
Yes -- this is a big one. Even if I have a nice fire in fair temps, staying out of my bag & tent for too long can chill me for the rest of the night.
TwoSpirits
12-12-2018, 16:48
The expansion cracks booming and vibrations were the eeriest.
This brought back great memories! Grew up in Minnesota, and can remember hearing the lake "boom" at night. At least once I was out skiing with my brother when the lake cracked right beside us. Eerie indeed, and a memory I'm glad to have.
TwoSpirits
12-12-2018, 16:49
I skied into the Pemigewasset wilderness on a full moon night. Set up camp, got into my bag, eat dinner. As the moon got higher and lit up the woods, had to go out and ski around. It was beautiful. And cold. Got back to the tent an hour or two later, all sweaty and had burned up dinner. Froze my butt off the rest of the night since I didn't have another change of clothes or more food and the bag which I didn't re-stuff was now ice cold. It was a -15 or -20 that night. At first light, I packed up and got the heck out of there and it took a long time warm myself up again.
So, if you get the urge to go wandering around at night, be sure you have extra food and clothes!This. Sounds. Miserable.
...
Better bring a bottle to wiz in when it’s that cold.
Best advice!
And empty the bottle as long as the contents are liquid.
Puddlefish
12-12-2018, 18:02
The warmer it is inside, the harder it is to head outside.
I skied into the Pemigewasset wilderness on a full moon night. Set up camp, got into my bag, eat dinner. As the moon got higher and lit up the woods, had to go out and ski around. It was beautiful. And cold. Got back to the tent an hour or two later, all sweaty and had burned up dinner. Froze my butt off the rest of the night since I didn't have another change of clothes or more food and the bag which I didn't re-stuff was now ice cold. It was a -15 or -20 that night. At first light, I packed up and got the heck out of there and it took a long time warm myself up again.
So, if you get the urge to go wandering around at night, be sure you have extra food and clothes!
And, here you are relating that beautiful memorable experience, recalling what you might have done differently making the next time better, and not merely bitching about that bored time you had in camp because of the long in camp hours. ;)
gpburdelljr
12-12-2018, 19:16
The conditions described in Jack London’s short story “To Build a Fire”, is definitely “too cold”.
https://americanenglish.state.gov/files/ae/resource_files/to-build-a-fire.pdf
Hikes in Rain
12-12-2018, 20:29
Great story! Thanks for linking the download.
TwoSpirits
12-12-2018, 20:53
Wow -- a great blast from the past! Thanks!
Slo-go'en
12-12-2018, 23:54
I wonder how those dudes from Alabama are doing here in the Whites? It's headed towards 10 below tonight, last couple of nights have been near or below zero. But the days have been clear and sunny and in the teens to low 20's in early afternoon. We might not get the weekend slush storm after all. That would be good.
My ancestors have a saying: "There is no bad weather, just bad clothing," and “Adventure is just bad planning.”
So the question is, even with solid experience, conditioning, and the best equipment, do you really want to subject yourself to given conditions on a given day?
When I was younger I loved being out overnight in deep snow, below zero. Now, I find it a chore. So I guess "how cold is too cold" is something on a slippery, sliding scale... so the answer for me is "it depends!"
Just having recovered from a really bad desease, I'm more eager to go outdoors since ever.
This thread about "how cold is to cold" gave me the idea to go out for an overnighter in what seems to be perfect weather that could be called cold:
Lots of snow up the mountains, daytime temps -10°C (10F), night forecast -15°C (5F) in the valley, maybe 5°C less up the mountains.
We had an invitiation for brunch at our friend's place (10 miles away in the nex valley) for Sunday, so I packed up and started Saturday 7PM hiking up the mountain using a ski pist. Ended up in a saddle at 10:PM at the designated camp spot.
Set up camp by compressing snow to a large even area, spreading the groundcloth, spanning the poncho tarp by means of an old log and the ski poles. Used two pads (a thick expedition-grade CCF and my Thermarest) and finally was in the sleeping bag at about 10:30PM.
Had a few hours of restful sleep, but around midnight a heavy southerly wind picked up (luckily from the backside of the tarp) that pressed and slapped the tarp hard and threw chunks of snow from the surrounding trees onto me so it was like in the middle of a bad snowball fight.
Not much sleep for several hours. Just managed another hour in dreamland right before dawn.
While I had never been really cold, there were some cold spots here and there, where I had slipped off the pad or the tarp was pressing to hard on the bag, that needed to be managed.
Hardest part was to get up in the morning and out into the stiff cold wind and snowdrift.
Luckily the bag is wide enough that I could put on all my hiking clothes inside the bag, just for the boots I had to finally get out.
It was a painful 30 minutes work to untangle all the cords on the tarp and pack everything up. The pad (both, the Thermarest and the thick CCF) are very stiff in the cold and unwilling.
When I was done my fingers were beyond feeling, but the pain when they came to later was excrutiating.
I continued down the steep slopes on the other side of the mountain, the wind subsided and the pale morning sun gave some warmth.
It took me longer than expected to our friend's place, all the way breaking trail, but managed to be there just in time with the other guests.
When my stomach slowly filled with delicious food and much-desired coffe, I finally fell silent and was on the brink of falling asleep.
Did everything work? Absolutely!
Was it a great adventure? Yes!
Would I do this for a multiday-hike? No!
Being out and up in the mountains in such conditions is adventure and survival training, but not hiking as its commonly understood.
I used to be a winter camping ranger for the Boy Scouts. I've slept overnight at -20 under a tarp with no problems. It's cold, but it's a dry cold. Worst winter camping was 30 degrees and raining.
About the long nights: I tried to stay up until 8:30pm, and then got up well before dawn (1 hour) to cook breakfast and start packing up the sled. Even with that many hours in the bag, it's hard to feel fully rested in the morning.
KnightErrant
01-02-2019, 19:34
As a southerner... y'all're crazy. xD
On my thru the coldest night was around 20*F and I was not pleased. I waited to start the trail until the middle of April specifically to avoid that nonsense! I had appropriate gear, but I did not find it enjoyable. On a thru-hike simply due to the time involved, I knew I was likely to encounter cold weather at one end or the other, and it was worth it to me because of the larger goal of the hike. But for just a weekend trip where I want to enjoy the experience itself, I'll go when the weather forecast is for above-freezing temps, and for any future LASH, that will be June or September for me, thank you! This Floridian is not about squeezing into frozen boots!
Funny how we humans adapt. I am not interested in suffering through the cold if there isn't another really appealing aspect of the trip. I don't think twice about heat. Meanwhile, my close friend lives in Wisconsin and constantly mocks me for being a pansy in the cold, and then one summer day she told me "I'm not going to ride my horse today because the temperature is in the EIGHTIES, I can't do that to him." I had to laugh, because I worked for three years on a horse farm outside Orlando, Florida, and if we didn't ride when it was in the 80s, we would ride about three months a year.
TwoSpirits
01-02-2019, 19:49
Yep -- once temps get into the mid-80's, I'm getting uncomfortable. I avoid hiking during most of the summer for just that reason.
Friends in the southwest have invited me there, with the old saying that "it's a *dry* heat!"...well so is my oven, but I don't enjoy standing in front of it! ;)
Traveler
01-03-2019, 07:51
Yep -- once temps get into the mid-80's, I'm getting uncomfortable. I avoid hiking during most of the summer for just that reason.
Friends in the southwest have invited me there, with the old saying that "it's a *dry* heat!"...well so is my oven, but I don't enjoy standing in front of it! ;)
It's a dry cold, so it evens out.
Tipi Walter
01-03-2019, 14:32
How Cold is Too Cold? For me personally and with the gear I carry I reach my limit at -30F---a number rarely encountered in the mountains of NC and TN---although more common on Mt LeConte and Mt Mitchell and the highest elevations.
Anyone remember the Arctic Outbreak of January 1985? I was living out of a backpack in the woods around Boone NC and the cold snap pushed the area down to -30F (Knoxville reached -24F)---my sleeping bag and clothing gear at the time could get me down to about -20F. So I did what any cold loving idiot would do---I packed up my kit and went to the opened First Baptist Church on King St in Boone and slept under a church pew for a couple nights.
44395
It's common to see -10F temps in January/February here in the Southeast mountains---but with a good 4 season tent and an overkill down bag and good all leather boots there's not much to it.
When things get really bad I'll set up a Squat Station and hunker in for the duration. Severe Cold is such a storm---as are Blizzards bringing in deep snow.
These two beasts determine how tough a winter trip will be---Severe Cold and/or Deep Snow. Remember, the Blizzard of '93 paralyzed the Eastern US and those of us out backpacking at the time---and it hit during Spring Break on March 12/13. My buddy Hoppin John was on a trip in the Smokies and stayed at a trail shelter for 4 or 5 days until he was forced to leave on a helicopter---and went back later for his pack and gear.
Every couple years here we have a Polar Vortex or an Arctic Rectum or whatever else they call it---and temps plunge to -10F or -15F for several days---with or without snow. I remember in Jan 2014 we had a polar vortex and I made my stand on Brookshire Creek trail(BMT) where I sat put for 3 nights/4 days to wait for the temps to rise from about -12F to 0F so I could pack up and cross the next couple creeks in bare feet and crocs. Ouch. Here's my camp during that cold snap---
44396
Point is, you've got to know where to Make Your Stand and where to hunker in. And pull a "Frazier" if need be---stay in one spot and make 2 days of food last 12---What Steven Frazier did in Yosemite when pinned in his tent by a surprise 2 foot snowstorm.
For me it is when everything starts to hurt, that is too cold. If I stay moving I can go a lot lower temps.
Plus if you prepared for the conditions you will be in, it is much more bearable
Traveler
01-13-2019, 09:27
Temperate scale in northern climes:
50 degrees - balmy, beach wear
40 degrees - breezy, shorts with socks
30 degrees - chilly, tee shirt, shorts, and ball cap
20 degrees - nippy, start closing some windows
10 degrees - brisk, close front and back door
0 degrees - frosty, fingerless glove weather
-10 degrees - cold, need long pants
-20 degrees - "fricken" cold, long sleeve shirts
4eyedbuzzard
01-13-2019, 11:09
Temperate scale in northern climes:
50 degrees - balmy, beach wear
40 degrees - breezy, shorts with socks
30 degrees - chilly, tee shirt, shorts, and ball cap
20 degrees - nippy, start closing some windows
10 degrees - brisk, close front and back door
0 degrees - frosty, fingerless glove weather
-10 degrees - cold, need long pants
-20 degrees - "fricken" cold, long sleeve shirts
Ahhhh, 50°, those warm New England summer days. Summer in New England, as in the second and third week of July.
0° is okay if it's not a winter storm. 40° is no bueno if it's raining.
This time last year, I went on my first winter campout with our Boy Scout Troop. Friday night was 9 degrees. Saturday night was 26 with 2" of snow. Since it is was pretty much car camping trip, carrying gear wasn't an issue so we were able to keep everyone safe. Surprisingly, it wasn't too awful bad. Even my 6 year old was fine.
Our 2019 trip is next weekend and it looks a little worse (more fun) weatherwise than last year.
Game Warden
01-17-2019, 23:11
Best advice I got re winter camping is don't have breakfast when you wake up. It just prolongs the misery. Pack up your camp, hike for an hour or so, warm up, then find a sunny spot for leisurely breakfast.
gracebowen
01-17-2019, 23:29
I'm going out this weekend.
Time Zone
01-18-2019, 00:06
Best advice I got re winter camping is don't have breakfast when you wake up. It just prolongs the misery. Pack up your camp, hike for an hour or so, warm up, then find a sunny spot for leisurely breakfast.
Thank you for posting this. This may save me some unpleasantness on an upcoming trip ... incidentally one that would be a time-crunch anyway in terms of having to pack up and meet another group over a mile away just 35 min after sunrise. OTOH with long nights we may wake pre-dawn and be eager to make some hot tea.
Gambit McCrae
01-18-2019, 10:15
I bared the cold weather for several years on the AT. Would keep hiking all the way thru winter. These days I hang it up when it gets 30* at night. Which is pretty much November 1st. Last year I pulled trip #1 of the year at easter which fell on 3/30/18 and I froze my keester off the second night out. I am going to springer this year on 3/15/18 and gunna skirt up to neels to see the troves of greenwoods. Lets see how my temperament of cold weather is this year...
sethd513
01-19-2019, 20:33
Best advice I got re winter camping is don't have breakfast when you wake up. It just prolongs the misery. Pack up your camp, hike for an hour or so, warm up, then find a sunny spot for leisurely breakfast.
I agree and disagree. Last time I was out it was 4-5 degrees in the morning. My cousin doesn’t eat in the am when we camp in winter. I packed up and said to myself I want a coffee. Enjoyed my drink and woke him up and off we went.
Depending on conditions and mileage you might like some food. Don’t dismiss the idea of breakfast completely. Plus you are going to be cold, warm up then stop and cool off. If you are going to eat a real “breakfast” eat in your bag. I personally only break out the stove at camp as I use white gas and wouldn’t want to use it during the day unless it’s an emergency
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Another Kevin
01-19-2019, 22:35
I don't plan to sleep out of doors below about -10 °F. I'm good to hike a little bit below that, and live through the night if I'm caught out.
That's enough to do weekends (if the weather forecast is worse, I go elsewehere or stay home), and good enough for the occasional winter peakbag (where most people's style is to wait for a good forecast, get in and get out before the weather changes).
If I had Coach Lou's sleeping gear (only sized for me, I'm a big guy and he isn't), and a mountaineering tent, and a pack big enough to hold the winter loadout, and the motivation to use them, I'd be good down to about -25. But I have neither the budget nor the motivation. As long as I can get out once in a while to relieve the cabin fever, I'm fine with what I've got.
Best advice I got re winter camping is don't have breakfast when you wake up. It just prolongs the misery. Pack up your camp, hike for an hour or so, warm up, then find a sunny spot for leisurely breakfast.
I agree and disagree. Last time I was out it was 4-5 degrees in the morning. My cousin doesn’t eat in the am when we camp in winter. I packed up and said to myself I want a coffee. Enjoyed my drink and woke him up and off we went.
Depending on conditions and mileage you might like some food. Don’t dismiss the idea of breakfast completely. Plus you are going to be cold, warm up then stop and cool off. If you are going to eat a real “breakfast” eat in your bag. I personally only break out the stove at camp as I use white gas and wouldn’t want to use it during the day unless it’s an emergency
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Pre winter hike I like to consider my early morning approaches. I'm more inclined to Seth's thinking. I let the conditions and morning temperament dictate how I'm to proceed. I don't want rigidness or one approach to always rule. Diversity of experiences keeps me more engaged on winter trips...and every trip. Diversity also gets me out more and for longer durations. For morning I may get up and immediately pack up, sometimes eating an hr or two later, other times sit in the bag taking in the winter perspective as the winter sun rises warming a meal outside of an enclosed tent. That's why I love Tipi Walter's winter trip reports w/ pics. I think he appreciates the aspects of winter "nut busters." :D
Organizing along these multiple morning approaches, for morning winter eats I like to bring along different foods based on variable inclinations, mixing it up with simple non heated nutrition like a Bobo's Oatmeal bar, ProBar, or Cashew Macro bar dipped in a high fat nut or seed butter with perhaps dry roasted caramel or chocolate covered coconut strips. I might bring along morning beverages to be heated something I never do on warmer trips. To the morning food menu I'll throw in oatmeal or millet or dehydrated quinoa as a base with flax seed oil or full fat powered coconut milk with nuts and seeds and their butters with dried fruits. Get up and go while eating or within an hr or two and then eat "cold" or heat a b'fast meal...it all works. All the b'fasts are made to also be consumed at any other time doing away with a rigid 3 squares a day approach.
I don't know if anyone has said this but as prep for a winter hike I re-habituate to cold and wind and walking in sleet and snow. I'll winter I'll mountain bike or peddle a gravel bike. Windows at home are opened. I sleep outside pre hike bivying if conditions allow. Tipi Walter sleeps outside even in winter which is one aspect of why he probably has a wider temp comfort zone. This is the physiological and psychological conditioning discussed in detail for thru hikers. Those same principles can be applied to winter outings. One problem for folks not going out in winter is they lock themselves inside enclosed tents or indoors pre hike hovering over a thermostat or under blankets on the bed or couch and scurry quickly to their vehicles in the cold mornings. No wonder not as a many that could enjoy winter aspects like winter backpacking and hiking choose not to.
evyck da fleet
01-20-2019, 00:13
Dayhiking I’ll go out in the twenties. I want no part of overnighting in the twenties. Add in the short days where I’m not moving around and lying in my tent listening to music and I’ll pass. Sterling fire tower in November.
On on the flip side, if it’s not too humid I’ll hike all day in the nineties if I’ve got tree cover. Pretty sure I did a thirty plus mile day into Harpers Ferry while it was 100 in DC.
Just did my first hike after the snowfall.
It was tough snowshoeing over the pass into the next vally, which had much more snow than at my home - the edge cut out by the plow was above my head.
Snow inside the forest was crusty with some powder atop - just perfect for snowshoeing!
Spent the night tucked away high on the mountain (est. -10/-12°C resp. -23/-24F), it was cosy inside the winter tent.
Some things to note about hiking in the cold:
- you should be super fit, but always leave a wide margin from exhaustion
- layer clothes, gloves, hats and adjust speed such, that you never start really sweating
- bathroom usage is difficult, you better bring your pee bottle
The worst part of the whole hike was packing up in the crisp-cold morning. Especially my fingers suffered a lot when packing up the tent.
Highlight of the hike was an Eagle Owl that I heard huuting. Very rare species here around.
4eyedbuzzard
01-20-2019, 13:16
Just did my first hike after the snowfall...
Spent the night tucked away high on the mountain (est. -10/-12°C resp. -23/-24F), it was cosy inside the winter tent...
Just a correction: -10/-12°C are +14/+10.4°F respectively.
So sorry.
Did the conversion from -10F to -23°C.
Maybe the cold was enough to damage my brain?
4eyedbuzzard
01-20-2019, 15:05
So sorry.
Did the conversion from -10F to -23°C.
Maybe the cold was enough to damage my brain?
Dain Bramage :D Still plenty cold enough for me. ;) It's tough if you're raised under one system and then have to always convert. Most of the equipment at my workplace is European, so while I recognize certain values, I always have to convert to have it make sense in my head.
Tough for us Europeans to visit the US.
I mixed up quarts and pints and got severe headache <G>
Regarding the cold, yeah, the snow was creaking so it was cold indeed.
As long as I kept moving, and had the head well covered I was fine.
Problem were the hands, I don't have decent gloves while holding the poles would require some.
Plus at certain points I had to take the gloves off again and again to look/zoom on the GPS app.
The near-full moon was so bright I didn't use the headlamp at all.
Plus if you prepared for the conditions you will be in, it is much more bearable
I took 10 sentences to say the same thing. I did include examples. :D
Game Warden
01-22-2019, 18:30
I used to follow Colin Fletcher's advice (remember him?) and set up my stove and breakfast beside my sleeping bag, for a comfy breakfast in bed the next morning. But now I live in bear country, and now that would mean getting out of the tent and sleeping bag, retrieving the bear bag. However, I do have a cup of coffee before hitting the trail. Woe to any bear that comes between me and my coffee.
greenmtnboy
01-23-2019, 15:08
The cold was pretty pronounced even in southern New England earlier in the week.
I tried to mentally compare it to winter hiking on the West face of Mt. Washington, hiking in the middle of winter in the huts of North Twin mountain, NH; those are far more of a challenge than even the worst cold we get in southern New England. But when you are restricted in breathing air nature is sending a message.
I've showshoe camped solo in the Adirondacks in the winter, deep snow and 20 below. Water bottles froze solid even if you keep them close. Worst part was the long long dark hours of night.
LIhikers
01-24-2019, 23:10
My wife and I recently went on a camping trip in northern Minnesota where the night time lows were -17, -37, and -38.
And during the day the temperatures never got up to zero.
Is that too cold? There were times I was uncomfortable, for sure, but I really enjoyed myself.
Another Kevin
01-25-2019, 17:38
I used to follow Colin Fletcher's advice (remember him?) and set up my stove and breakfast beside my sleeping bag, for a comfy breakfast in bed the next morning. But now I live in bear country, and now that would mean getting out of the tent and sleeping bag, retrieving the bear bag. However, I do have a cup of coffee before hitting the trail. Woe to any bear that comes between me and my coffee.
(1) I usually have to get out of the bag to pee pretty soon after waking up. Perfect opportunity to retrieve a bear bag, crawl back into the sleeping bag and make coffee!
(2) I'm sure Harrisburg is milder, but in the temperatures that I'm thinking of, how likely is a bear encounter? I don't think I've ever seen fresh bear tracks or scat in 0 °F weather. I'm a lot more tolerant of sleeping with food when the bears are asleep.
Tipi Walter
01-29-2019, 14:52
I pulled a 17 day winter backpacking trip from January 12 to Jan 28 and just got back yesterday. Trip report here on WB forthcoming.
My coldest days were Jan 19-20-21---which reached 8F where I was camping on State Line Ridge on the BMT near Sandy Gap (TN/NC line).
This pic was taken on the BMT(Brookshire Creek trail) climbing up to Sled Runner Gap/State Line Ridge a couple days before the Hell Storm---
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2019-Trips-195-/17-Days-in-the-Heart-of-Darkness/i-TPsGBCj/0/d169a9b8/XL/Trip%20195%20%28129%29-XL.jpg
The components of the hell storm?
Jan 16---the above pic.
Jan 17---cold sleetstorm at 30F.
Jan 18---Arrived in Hazel Gap below Hazelnut Knob.
Jan 19---Hazel Hunker with 65mph winds and constant all day cold rain.
Jan 20---Hazel Gap rain turns to snow and 8F at night.
Jan 21---Monday morning and leaving Hazel Gap at 12F.
Biggest problem? Packing up my big Hilleberg tent coated in a varnish of ice and impossible to roll up and stuff inside tent sack. Solution? Roll up heavy tent wad in my ground cloth and strap on the bottom of the pack---visible in pic---
44557
Walter, I'm only surprised you came off the trail before the polar vortex plows in. :sun
Tipi Walter
01-29-2019, 17:10
Walter, I'm only surprised you came off the trail before the polar vortex plows in. :sun
I was supposed to stay out until Feb. 1 Friday for a 21 day trip but hanging with Little Mitten at home for this current snow and cold snap is also good.
TwoSpirits
01-29-2019, 17:34
I pulled a 17 day winter backpacking trip from January 12 to Jan 28 and just got back yesterday. Trip report here on WB forthcoming.
Oooooh! I've been looking forward to this!
I’ve resisted so far. Dredging up a cold experience from the Wayback Machine.
Winter. 1997-1998. Kazakhstan. NE corner of the Caspian Sea. Zero Dark:30. Still. Clear. -32 F. Walked 500m to the mess hall for oatmeal, bangers and mash. Walked another 500m to the office at 6 am. Sunrise at 8 am. Still no clouds or wind. Still -32 F. A gorgeous morning.
The next 30 hours were bizarre.
From -32 F to +34 F and rain. Then freezing rain and sleet and snow. By dark the following day the temperature was down to -20 F. This event didn’t make it to the Weather Channel.
Watching tv this morning brought back some interesting memories. A drive across the San Luis Valley and over La Vita Pass about this time of year in a 1961 VW Beetle was interesting.
Those days and nights were cold enough for me.
Be warm. Be safe.
Wayne
For anybody keeping track, the Arrowhead 135 mile ultramarathon has been going on in Minnesota the last few days. I think they hit -60 with windchill and about -30 without. Quite a trek for those out there under 'normal' circumstances. This year is insane.
There was a day......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=6kcyj_nYS1A
Meanwhile...
There are at least two teams of climbers attempting winter ascents of K2, the last 8,000 meter peak without a winter ascent. The teams are currently establishing high camps to support the summit attempts.
All the best of luck to them.
Wayne
Oslohiker
02-03-2019, 16:36
There is really no limit. There are clothes that will protect you, and masks that warm up your breath. Here in Norway we love the snow and winter, and look forward to it, as we look forward to every season.
Personally, I have experienced -40 F/C when I was in the military in Northern Norway. That was cold, but it is doable.
In Norway we cross-country ski in the wintertime, instead of hiking (although a few are still hiking, even here). I live by the woods in the capitol, Oslo. And this weekend it has been full of people skiing in the woods. Even when it was much colder (5 F) it was a lot of people out, enjoying the winter. People are also tenting, and do sleep the night in the woods, or several nights in a row.
In weekends or in longer vacations, people go up in the mountain and do multiple days cross-country ski trips. Some even bring their kids. This is especially popular in the Easter vacation.
It only winds down to knowledge and experience. Snow and cold weather in it self are not a problematic. The only thing that scares me are avalanches.
If you feel cold and/or wet you are doing something wrong. In Norway we have a saying. There are no bad weather, only bad clothing. Dress right, and enjoy winter. There is no reason to feel uncomfortable in cold weather. There are advantages with cold weather, too. No bugs and food keeps fresh. Fresh meat, fruit and vegetables are not a problem to bring on longer trips.
Here is an arbitrary example of Norwegians enjoying a weekend up in the mountains. I don’t know these people, I just searched it up at Youtube. This is a common activity among Norwegians.
https://youtu.be/GGFLc-R0Dkw
Would be interesting to know what you're doing about (optical) glasses?
Whenever I'm trying to use any kind of mask or balaclava my glasses start to fog.
Would be interesting to know what you're doing about (optical) glasses?
Whenever I'm trying to use any kind of mask or balaclava my glasses start to fog.
That always keeps me from going “full ninja” with my black base layers and balaclava.
TwoSpirits
02-05-2019, 16:23
Agreed -- fogging up is completely frustrating when you wear glasses. Goggles are great, but only in the really good cold weather. I have never found any good solution.
Another Kevin
02-05-2019, 17:22
Would be interesting to know what you're doing about (optical) glasses?
Whenever I'm trying to use any kind of mask or balaclava my glasses start to fog.
There are no really good answers.
1. Use a tunnel hood (also called a wolf hood or shore hood) so you don't need a facemask and goggles nearly as much.
2. (Expensive, and not covered by insurance, but many serious skiers do it) Use goggles with inserts for prescription lenses.
3. Use a neoprene face mask that's well ventilated instead of a balaclava, and put an anti-fog chemical like Cat Crap on your glasses and goggles. Even better than a cheap neoprene mask would be a countercurrent one like the ColdAvenger - if you can stand the fact that it looks like a pig's snout and drips constantly.
See page 25 of https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/954d1e_de6867afcac94d7b8b1068583dc47f98.pdf - but I just gave a summary of what it says.
Great scriptum, Kevin.
I've been through all the mentioned items, all worked for some limited time, nothing worked perfect.
Maybe I should start over again with sunglasses with prescription glasses. Hey, found the old pre-WW2 leather "Glacier Glass" in the loft recently, still my old prescriptions built-in - should give these a try again, I guess.
Agreed -- fogging up is completely frustrating when you wear glasses. Goggles are great, but only in the really good cold weather. I have never found any good solution.
We used this http://www.ruoutside.com/fog-evader.html when snowmobiling. Kevin is right it does drip water but the neck gater keeps your inner clothing dry.
Hikes in Rain
02-06-2019, 12:22
If it's possible to wear contacts instead of your glasses, that takes care of the problem. But then, some either can't or would prefer not to. For me, I'd rather go without my pants than without contacts! :sun Back when I lived in Alaska, though, I did find that contacts were tough in the really cold weather. The extra dry air after the water vapor froze out of it really dried my eyes. And you have to keep them from freezing when you're not wearing them. Inserting cold contacts is a better wake up than coffee with a double espresso shot!
I was the assistant scout master in a Boy Scout troop my son was in. One January, we had a camp-out scheduled, and the forecast was for -20 F. I had a sleeping bag rated at that level, but none of the scouts was even close to prepared, except for my son. It was a cold night, as I went around to check on the kids repeatedly. My batteries failed, but fortunately, I had some lithiums in my stash, which go lower in temps.
I was the assistant scout master in a Boy Scout troop my son was in. One January, we had a camp-out scheduled, and the forecast was for -20 F. I had a sleeping bag rated at that level, but none of the scouts was even close to prepared, except for my son. It was a cold night, as I went around to check on the kids repeatedly. My batteries failed, but fortunately, I had some lithiums in my stash, which go lower in temps.
wow...I might have called that trip off. The issue with the gear that the Scouts or newbs carry (myself included back in the day) is that cheaper bags tend to be woefully overrated in their temp or comfort rating. A lower end supposed 0* bag may actually be comfortable for most users at 15* - 25*. Took me a while to learn what EN rating meant and which companies produced bags that were true to their advertised comfort ratings. And not many kids/newbs are carrying those brands.
To be clear, this is not a thinly veiled criticism at all. I congratulate you for doing that. The BSA helped get me into camping/backpacking many, many moons ago. I love to take kids on trips, although I do not do it via any "official" organization. It is imperative in this digital age that we connect youngsters to the outdoors. Thank you for doing your part.
Tipi Walter
02-10-2019, 10:30
I was the assistant scout master in a Boy Scout troop my son was in. One January, we had a camp-out scheduled, and the forecast was for -20 F. I had a sleeping bag rated at that level, but none of the scouts was even close to prepared, except for my son. It was a cold night, as I went around to check on the kids repeatedly. My batteries failed, but fortunately, I had some lithiums in my stash, which go lower in temps.
Your post reminds me of pulling a winter backpacking trip in the mountains of TN/NC and seeing a Boy Scout troop coming up to the high ground (5,300 foot elevation) and passing thru my camp. It was cold of course and the next day a trip leader told me it got down to 1F---cold enough for me.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2009/Trip-89-Backpacking/i-4GdKSWR/0/a6da5c2e/L/Trip%2089%20029-L.jpg
They were a happy bunch despite the 1F cold snap.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2009/Trip-89-Backpacking/i-gcxtsHH/0/7384b7ec/L/Trip%2089%20042-L.jpg
I watched them bail off the mountain in a blizzard.
Another time I was in the NC mountains and met another group of Scouts and watched them set up camp in a butt cold wind at around 15F. It was a struggle.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2009/The-Longest-Trip-at-23-Days/i-msX5KCP/0/84e391a4/XL/TRIP%20102%20%20OCTOBER-NOV%202009%20082-XL.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2009/The-Longest-Trip-at-23-Days/i-ttgdf6G/0/c30dcb31/XL/TRIP%20102%20%20OCTOBER-NOV%202009%20092-XL.jpg
The next morning they had a hard time getting big frozen items to become small frozen items---the bane of winter backpacking is packing up all your crap---as evidenced by the boy with the giant blue tarp---it was frozen and impossible to pack---so he humped it out as shown. My dog looks on in glee.
the forecast was for -20 F. I had a sleeping bag rated at that level, but none of the scouts was even close to prepared, except for my son.
In the 1960s my Boy Scout Troop went on a winter camping trip in Iowa. To the best of my knowledge sleeping bags were not rated back then. I'm sure my bag was wholly inadequate for the low teens temperatures that night. I finally settled in wearing all the clothing I brought with me and got warm enough to fall asleep. At 2 AM the scout master woke us up to watch the stars. Afterwards I never warmed enough to go back to sleep. I was miserable for the remainder of the trip. This was not the type of experience I would ever subject a child to. Looking back, I can see how this scenario could well have ended in tragedy. Had the temps dropped to -20 I seriously doubt that I(and others) would have survived. So much for "Be prepared".
The silver lining to the story is that I now have an acute awareness of conditions I might be facing and pack accordingly. There are better ways to learn that lesson. I don't fault scouting. I fault those particular "leaders".
My brothers and I went on many camping trips on our own and had a blast. If not for that, I probably would have no interest in the outdoors today.
In the 1960s my Boy Scout Troop went on a winter camping trip in Iowa. To the best of my knowledge sleeping bags were not rated back then. I'm sure my bag was wholly inadequate for the low teens temperatures that night. I finally settled in wearing all the clothing I brought with me and got warm enough to fall asleep. At 2 AM the scout master woke us up to watch the stars. Afterwards I never warmed enough to go back to sleep. I was miserable for the remainder of the trip. This was not the type of experience I would ever subject a child to. Looking back, I can see how this scenario could well have ended in tragedy. Had the temps dropped to -20 I seriously doubt that I(and others) would have survived. So much for "Be prepared".
The silver lining to the story is that I now have an acute awareness of conditions I might be facing and pack accordingly. There are better ways to learn that lesson. I don't fault scouting. I fault those particular "leaders".
My brothers and I went on many camping trips on our own and had a blast. If not for that, I probably would have no interest in the outdoors today.
When my oldest son was in HS, he and a few buddies decided to go on a last minute spring break hike in the Smokies. I was out of town on a business trip and unaware of what was taking place. Although we had plenty of time together camping on various hunting and fishing trips, he had no idea of what it was like in early March at 6,000+ ft. There trip lasted for 2 nights instead of the planned 5. He has not gone on another trip since.
Every year that I am on the trail, I see families out on trips.Even in mild or pleasant weather, they are carrying the wrong stuff and/or too much of it. It is more difficult than anticipated. I wonder how many people are turned off of hiking/camping/backpacking due to bad experiences on their first trip?
Tipi Walter
02-10-2019, 12:03
When my oldest son was in HS, he and a few buddies decided to go on a last minute spring break hike in the Smokies. I was out of town on a business trip and unaware of what was taking place. Although we had plenty of time together camping on various hunting and fishing trips, he had no idea of what it was like in early March at 6,000+ ft. There trip lasted for 2 nights instead of the planned 5. He has not gone on another trip since.
Every year that I am on the trail, I see families out on trips.Even in mild or pleasant weather, they are carrying the wrong stuff and/or too much of it. It is more difficult than anticipated. I wonder how many people are turned off of hiking/camping/backpacking due to bad experiences on their first trip?
My first backpacking trip was a 9 mile trek with Cub Scouts in Oklahoma in 1958 and we played flashlight wars. I used an old canvas Yucca pack. It was a long mileage day for a kid but a great experience otherwise.
When I moved to Texas in 1962 I joined the local Boy Scout troop and was initiated with a "belt line" whereby all the scouts stood in a line with their legs spread apart so I had to crawl thru while getting whipped with belts. That was the end of my Boy Scout career. Did I have a bad experience on my first trip? Hell no, I had a bad experience just trying to get Tenderfoot. I think the Scout leader was a retired Marine just back from the frozen hills of North Korea.
Jim Adams
02-22-2019, 23:38
Totally depends on whether I'm camping or hiking. Hiking I pretty much stick to a minimum of 0*. Camping is a whole other subject. If I'm just out camping or car camping for relaxing in the woods I've been out as low as -21*f at night. At those temps it's just too much equipment to backpack and still be comfortable.