Ignoring the Shelters

[Gambit McCrae]

I just replied to littlerocks yellow springs thread about ignoring shelter sites which got me to thinking. A lot of folks wish the shelters were not there. But they are and always will be.

So on both my LDH's this year, I more or less excluded the shelters as nightly stops and chose camp sites that made sense with my day. The end result was more MPD, less annoyance of the cliental at shelters and overall I had a real great experience with that mentality. I would make sure that before I stopped I would have both smart water bottles filled up, and as well I carried a 2 liter sawyer bladder so I could fill that up if water was a couple miles prior to the tent site and then I had a full refill for the AM before leaving camp.

I also am now on the mindset of - If I am carrying this tent I am gunna use it every chance that I legally can. Which is another reason for the above mentality.

I know from personal experience that people use the shelter sites out of fear. Knowing that they probably will not be alone, there will be water there, whatever reason. But if people can break from that and dry camp, or use tenting sites - it may benefit them.

Thoughts? Can others relate?

[BradMT]

I think shelters are great... they concentrate overuse to centralized spots, helping keep impact elsewhere to a minimum. Shelters are also part of the culture and history of the AT, and what helps make it unique.

Having said that, I haven't walked on the AT since 1980.

When my partner and I did a 2.5 mo's walk on the AT in the summer of 1977 (I turned 16 that summer), the shelters were used, and some well used, but I can imagine nothing like today...

[Hatchet_1697]

I do both, but my guiding principle is to camp close to a good water source since I can go through 2-3L in camp cooking, resupplying, and rehydrating. Filtering in parallel to setting up camp is just plain efficient. I’ve slept in a shelter once or twice, prefer my hammock, but have used shelters to get protection from storms with high winds.

My cousin enjoys the social aspect of shelters, you meet some interesting folks there, but his son hates them and prefers a campsite away from people. I see both points of view. Shelters are trail civilization that usually have a privy, bear box/pole/cables, and water source; they also are a good place to get news and updates. Backcountry camping is peaceful and more of a wilderness experience.

I have never had an issue backcountry camping, but have had annoyances at shelters. Night hikers talking loudly with headlamps at full power, trash, overcrowding, weird drunk guy from Philly using the AT to hide from a motorcycle gang he wronged (great shelter story btw).

Bottom line is I set my daily miles goal to stop at a water source close to a shelter, campsite, or reasonable stealth site. I’m good with any of these.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[MisterQ]

Mid-day, the picnic tables at the shelters are a nice opportunity to sit, organize and maybe cook a meal. I agree there is no reason to be tied to a shelter as the end point of the day, but often the shelters offer nice tenting areas a short distance away from the shelter. If convenient, I use them. Otherwise there are usually many other places to pitch a tent.

[Slugg]

I pick my goal for the next day before I go to sleep at night. If that happens to line up with a shelter, great, but if not I'm perfectly content at just an established campsite. For example, last Winter when I hiked the AL section of the Pinhoti Trail I passed shelters every single day (I think) but only slept in one once, on the last night. On an AT section hike this past summer I stayed in them all 3 nights. Just happened to line up with my mileage goals.

I will cut my mileage short to stop at a shelter if it's going to storm, though. I don't mind hiking in the rain but I want my gear to at least be dry inside my pack.

[Christoph]

Slugg - this is exactly what I do. I plan ahead a little each night so I know what I'm in for the next day (water, camping, etc). I'm ok at shelters sometimes but I like my good ole' $40 Ebay tent too much. It is nice to stow my bag in the shelter when it's raining but sometimes I still set up my tent, then retrieve it for a nice wet (and sometimes cold) pillow. :)

[Crushed Grapes]

I'm in line with many of the previous replies. I've never stayed in one, but I'll camp near one if that is how my mileage/water needs are. Not to say I'll never stay in a shelter, I'm sure I will on my thru attempt next year, but I prefer the confines of my tent.

Honestly I think more hikers should stay in shelters, means more good campsites for me :)

[MuddyWaters]

Ill stay in them occassionally if only 1 or 2 others are there and weve been having enjoyable conversation. Or if it's raining or such.

If there's a few people and there's tent pads that are a scattered in woods aways away that are quiet I'll take the tent pads every time.

I can't imagine anyone wanting to deal with other people's noises or mice all the time.

But for 900 of last 1000 miles i hiked, there were no shelters. I slept in two shelters in Shenandoah two years ago on a fall leaf peeping walk. Last shelters i was in. One I had to myself, and one I was thought I did until somebody else showed up at 11 p.m.


And the lack of shelters on other trails certainly were not missed. People still congregate in good locations. People still talk and hang out with people they like. And arent forced to hang out with people they don't like.

Absolutely no one has ever said , "man this X trail would be better if it had some shelters like the AT".

And there's less people that really are not suited for being out there. It seems.

[Hikingjim]

I like the shelters in quiet areas. A few people who are actual hikers is fine
But if they're packed and easily accessible, I'll avoid. Stayed at a couple with people carrying on at night, washing their underwear in the water source, etc....

[stephanD]

Why would folks wish the shelters were not there? Nobody is forced to sleep in a shelter. Shelters are a great place to socialize, make (legal) fire, get water, exchange information (shelter log). most shelters have great tent sites, bear box/poles/cables to hang the food bag and a table to eat. As you age, you appreciate those things (especially the picnic table) more and more. Also, shelters provide safety (assuming the guy next to you is not a serial killer).

[Slugg]

Why would folks wish the shelters were not there? Nobody is forced to sleep in a shelter. Shelters are a great place to socialize, make (legal) fire, get water, exchange information (shelter log). most shelters have great tent sites, bear box/poles/cables to hang the food bag and a table to eat. As you age, you appreciate those things (especially the picnic table) more and more. Also, shelters provide safety (assuming the guy next to you is not a serial killer).

I don't think many people have a problem with shelters inherently and appreciate what they offer, it's just that the presence of shelters attracts more people to the trail than would otherwise be there. People (myself included) don't like that side-effect of them.

[Gambit McCrae]

Why would folks wish the shelters were not there? Nobody is forced to sleep in a shelter. Shelters are a great place to socialize, make (legal) fire, get water, exchange information (shelter log). most shelters have great tent sites, bear box/poles/cables to hang the food bag and a table to eat. As you age, you appreciate those things (especially the picnic table) more and more. Also, shelters provide safety (assuming the guy next to you is not a serial killer).

Pretty sure as most hikers age they want more and more peace n' quiet.
I have learned very little from campfire talk. Mostly a bunch of he said she said, lies, toppers, drunken stoopers. Very little useful information.
I am already completely safe in the woods, I don't need a wooden box to increase my safety.
If the wood box was not there, there would be more space for me to put my tent.
I sleep with my food. No need for me to put it in a box so a hiker bum can take it during the night.

I do enjoy a good picnic table.

[MuddyWaters]

Also, shelters provide safety (assuming the guy next to you is not a serial killer).

At least 4 of 11 people murdered on AT were killed at shelters.

Just sayin.

Shelters attract people.
Bad people too.

Groups of people provide safety.....not shelters per se.

[Gambit McCrae]

At least 4 of 11 people murdered on AT were killed at shelters.

Just sayin.

Shelters attract people.
Bad people too.

Well this may be one of my favorite replies of the year muddy LOL

[Studlintsean]

I pick my goal for the next day before I go to sleep at night. If that happens to line up with a shelter, great, but if not I'm perfectly content at just an established campsite. For example, last Winter when I hiked the AL section of the Pinhoti Trail I passed shelters every single day (I think) but only slept in one once, on the last night. On an AT section hike this past summer I stayed in them all 3 nights. Just happened to line up with my mileage goals.

I will cut my mileage short to stop at a shelter if it's going to storm, though. I don't mind hiking in the rain but I want my gear to at least be dry inside my pack.
Same here but I am usually so excited about a trip that I have my planned stops figured out months ahead of time

[HooKooDooKu]

Why would folks wish the shelters were not there? Nobody is forced to sleep in a shelter. Shelters are a great place to socialize, make (legal) fire, get water, exchange information (shelter log). most shelters have great tent sites, bear box/poles/cables to hang the food bag and a table to eat. As you age, you appreciate those things (especially the picnic table) more and more. Also, shelters provide safety (assuming the guy next to you is not a serial killer).

I don't think many people have a problem with shelters inherently and appreciate what they offer, it's just that the presence of shelters attracts more people to the trail than would otherwise be there. People (myself included) don't like that side-effect of them.
It's more than just attracting more people. It's also the typical problems that tend to occur at places where people frequently congregate... such as issues with mice and bears. (Of course such 'problems' are not unique to shelters but also at popular camp sites as well).

[Just Bill]

I just replied to littlerocks yellow springs thread about ignoring shelter sites which got me to thinking. A lot of folks wish the shelters were not there. But they are and always will be.

So on both my LDH's this year, I more or less excluded the shelters as nightly stops and chose camp sites that made sense with my day. The end result was more MPD, less annoyance of the cliental at shelters and overall I had a real great experience with that mentality. I would make sure that before I stopped I would have both smart water bottles filled up, and as well I carried a 2 liter sawyer bladder so I could fill that up if water was a couple miles prior to the tent site and then I had a full refill for the AM before leaving camp.

I also am now on the mindset of - If I am carrying this tent I am gunna use it every chance that I legally can. Which is another reason for the above mentality.

I know from personal experience that people use the shelter sites out of fear. Knowing that they probably will not be alone, there will be water there, whatever reason. But if people can break from that and dry camp, or use tenting sites - it may benefit them.

Thoughts? Can others relate?
Many of the folks who proclaim they wish the shelters were gone also (more or less) wish the trail itself was different. If nobody was on the trail (or much beyond the road crossings) as it used to be... most of those folks would once again fondly remember the shelters. Memories are funny things that way.

As a midwestern hiker who was both dumbfounded and fascinated with this whole shelter idea when I first hiked on the AT... I think they are amazing. I didn't grow up with them and found the journals, 'take a book/leave a book library', and occasional chance to share a fire with fellow hikers pretty cool. And I don't care what the garumphs have to say on the subject... When it's been raining all damn day and you can come across a solid roof with a bench to sit on I have yet to meet someone who is thrilled to pass it up and stand in the rain. Simple fact is they come in darn handy from time to time even if you are 'old school' in accepting the simple fact that you should never rely on one.

Simple fact as well that concentrated sites are an effective way to manage crowded places. Dispersed camping only works if it actually remains dispersed/seldom used and the AT sees a high enough volume of hikers that the concept isn't going away. So imagine a concentrated camping location (with water source, privy, firepit, tent pads or sites) but without the shelter itself. Usually the few spots that naturally develop in such a manner are considered eye-sores at best, and flat out dumps at worst. The shelter serves as that high traffic hub and central point for gathering and provides a fairly durable means to do so. If we scrapped them you'd likely find that land managers would increase camping restrictions and more or less relegate folks to using the designated sites (now shelter free) regardless.

Many forget that a large reason the generally lax and loose stealth camping opportunities exist is because most folks use the shelters. Many also forget that it takes a decent bit of skill to stealth camp properly with little or no impact and that you really don't want just anyone to do it.

Which brings us back to you; things are changing.
Several seasons on this site, several good sections under your hipbelt, a decent bit of miles on yer shoes and a modicum of sense atween yer ears.

Fear, uncertainty, inexperience, or just plain being sociable... there are lots of reasons that shelters are a good place for those getting started. And even a good way for them to get started.
I'd rather see someone out there than at home.... though there are plenty who would rather not see them at all and think the shelter is a crutch for those who don't belong.

Either way... many places require permits, designated sites, and have many restrictions. Most of then vastly more restrictive than the AT. You want less folks... a multi year permit process will fix that up. You want to continue to just show up with no notice, permission, or fees... expect a few others to do the same.
The AT is a pretty free place, but folks do tend to check the Awol guide (or an app) and tie themselves into the various 'points of interest' neatly laid out. Not everyone has camped in places where you are allowed to select a site of your own. For many site selection means driving around the state park until you find a winner. It takes some time to mentally get over that point to point style of hiking, and to acquire the various skills and confidence to do so.

As you get older you may find that a night alone is more fun than a night with a bunch of 20 somethings you don't relate well to.
Or you may be the 30 year old with a bit of whiskey to share, a fire to build and find the shelter filled with 65 year olds in bed by 7pm.
The legendary diversity of the trail crowd goes both ways... and it ain't always the youts who occupy the shelter with a sense of entitlement. Or local yocals who are parting like they never heard o' this byackyackin thing.

I still find them pretty fascinating regardless. Though I find a nice balance of evolving style, convenience, low impact, and social interaction is the dinner stop.
Look at the shelters like any other scenic overlook or bubbling brook you may pass on the trail and keep your schedule open to it all.
Nobody really plans to 'watch sunset on scenic overlook so and so at mile xxx.x'... but when you pass by and the timing is right on a clear day you do so.

Stopping into a shelter around evening is a nice opportunity to share a meal, keep food smells at concentrated camps, do a bit of clean up, organize yer pack for a potentially wet camp and generally see all the trail has to offer you. It is also an excellent way to vastly reduce your impact when stealth camping as all your high impact tasks can be completed at the spot they've been designated to be completed at long before you arrive at your sleeping place. Course the idea of a 'camping place' and a 'sleeping place' takes some thunking of the ol knoggin too. So stop in the shelter you pass and let spontaneity be your guide.
If'n it turns out there's an Ol' Man spinnin yarns and a tricky feller who enjoy a nip a whiskey... then you take a pull and park. If not... you just continue on yer way.
Sometimes it's nice to just stop by, check on the kids. Hard to say at times why it is the trail put you there. Sometimes there may be a job to do, other times yer job may be to mind yer own business. Get taught a little something, or leave them a fire burning to spin their own tales around too.

The only limitations brought on by the shelter system are self-imposed.
It's a fine day when you realize that this hiking thing isn't so much series of strolls from point to point to form a section so much as a continuous line of open ended choices followed by footprints.

Pat yerself on the back fer recognizing that, walking on and expanding your options.

Many of those who cry about shelters are folks who haven't hiked without them.
Or those who choose to ferget that they started someplace too.
Perhaps the only reason the shelter is so crowded is because when it was their time to move on and camp elsewhere; the garumphs refused to. Sometimes it's hard to you're the folks who don't belong when you're busy complaining about the folks who don't belong.

It's a big world out there and lots of places to go... even some trails that don't have a single shelter.
And even some woods that don't have a trail at all.

One step at a time though fella.;)

[Emerson Bigills]

Shelters provide a nice option for those that wish to partake. It's yet another facet of HYOH. The advantages typically are water, protection from the rain for sleep and eating, socialization with other hikers, sometimes a picnic table, less work to set up and break camp. The down sides are often mice, other varmints, noisy sleepers, annoying chatterboxes, garbage, lack of solitude, close quarters with people you don't get to choose, occasionally sketchy characters. Some shelters are awesome and a treat to stay in, others are absolute dumps and no one should stay there.

In the last 12 years, I have spent about 140 nights out on the AT and would guess that 3/4 of those have been in various shelters. I could count on one hand the experiences that I would consider negative. Most folks are very pleasant out on the trails and on pretty good behavior. There are a few that don't leave their bad "civilization" manners at home. I sleep pretty soundly after a tough day of hiking and typically have no problem getting at least 6 hours of solid sleep in a shelter. I am also a bit lazy and will forgo the work of tenting on most occasions.

I look at shelters as a personal preference, like many of the other choices backpackers make. Some of my best memories of the AT were fellowship at a shelter site.

[rickb]

At least 4 of 11 people murdered on AT were killed at shelters.


If you are talking about the 7 individuals killed on the AT proper, at least 6 of them were killed at shelters.

Molly LaRue, 25, from Shaker Heights, Ohio
Geoffrey Hood, 26, from Signal Mountain, Tennessee
Susan Ramsey, 27 from Ellsworth Maine
Robert Mountford, 27, from Ellsworth, Maine
Janice Balza, 22, from Madison, Wisconsin
Joel Polsom, 26, of Hartsville, South Carolina

The exact location of the killing of 7th individual, Scott Lilly, has not been published, though his body was found not far from one.

Other murders have been associated with the AT (bring the total to 11) but none of those were on the Trail itself. However in one of those crimes, one of the victims and her partner had an uncomfortable run in with the killer at an AT shelter.

One common thread to each murder at a shelter is that they occurred at time well outside of the busy season and the bubble of thru hikers. Another commonality is that all (or most, not sure about Joel Polsom) were AT thru hikers or in one case, a long-distance section hiker

[GaryM]

Shelters have their place. I understand the fear factor and I understand humans are somewhat of a herd animal. Privies are nice and having shelters by water supplies are a good idea too. As for me I am a hammock camper, can't sleep on the ground or even a pad so I have to hang (severe sleep apnea, my snoring scares away the bears) I am about 50/50 for sleeping around shelters, I am perfectly happy finding two good trees anywhere. Slept warm and dry through a few storms this way too.
Any weather bad enough to mess with me in my hammock and I will just hike on out.
I will be entering GSMNP soon enough, have no idea how I will handle that.

[BobTheBuilder]

I'm a goal-oriented person, so setting daily distances based on shelters keeps me motivated. I don't usually sleep in them, preferring to hammock nearby, but it is usually a good place to eat and have a fire.

[tdoczi]

I also am now on the mindset of - If I am carrying this tent I am gunna use it every chance that I legally can. Which is another reason for the above mentality.

I know from personal experience that people use the shelter sites out of fear. Knowing that they probably will not be alone, there will be water there, whatever reason. But if people can break from that and dry camp, or use tenting sites - it may benefit them.

Thoughts? Can others relate?

i'm increasingly of the mindset "why am i carrying this piece of equipment i really dont want to use"? (and before someone goes there, dont read that as i am walking around without any sort of shelter in case of unexpected events).

i use the shelters out of a desire to maximum time spent hiking and minimize time spent not hiking. simple as that. me being the only one there is fine with me, preferable even. and i dont mind carrying water in from elsewhere.

[Huntmog]

Same as tdoczi...a year ago i was exclusively sleeping away from shelters due to solitude. Then a torrential rainstorm drove me to the paul c wolfe shelter and I learned....how amazing it is not dealing with a tent. Now i am almost exclusively in shelters. Unless milage lends itself differently, i.e. this summer i stayed up on ravens rocks, i much rather not hastle with a tent set up or take down.

Iv also learned that outside of bubble season, the socializing is over hyped. Most folks just bed down and everyones quiet by dark. To each his own though.

[Lone Wolf]

I just replied to littlerocks yellow springs thread about ignoring shelter sites which got me to thinking. A lot of folks wish the shelters were not there. But they are and always will be.

So on both my LDH's this year, I more or less excluded the shelters as nightly stops and chose camp sites that made sense with my day. The end result was more MPD, less annoyance of the cliental at shelters and overall I had a real great experience with that mentality. I would make sure that before I stopped I would have both smart water bottles filled up, and as well I carried a 2 liter sawyer bladder so I could fill that up if water was a couple miles prior to the tent site and then I had a full refill for the AM before leaving camp.

I also am now on the mindset of - If I am carrying this tent I am gunna use it every chance that I legally can. Which is another reason for the above mentality.

I know from personal experience that people use the shelter sites out of fear. Knoon the ATwing that they probably will not be alone, there will be water there, whatever reason. But if people can break from that and dry camp, or use tenting sites - it may benefit them.

Thoughts? Can others relate?

hate 'em. will never stay in one ever again. haven't for many years. not needed on the AT

[Gambit McCrae]

I have been in some torentual downpours on the trail. Some absolute rain all night “is this rain gunna rip thru my tent??!” Kinda downpours. I have never not ever once had an issue staying dry in my tent or thought “Man I wish I was in a shelter right now with a bunch of wet strangers.
But then again I am also the guy that preaches “buy once....”, “ya get what ya pay for...” etc etc...

i appreciate everyones input to the topic thus far, alot of thought in the responses

[Huntmog]

Gambit, let me clarify. No matter the tent, it still sucks to climb into one soaking wet with all of the wet gear. Especially with a hiking partner. I have 4 tents, 2 of which i would trust in any weather. It still is easier to sleep in a shelter in that weather than set up and break down in an ongoing storm.

[Dogwood]

It's more than just attracting more people. It's also the typical problems that tend to occur at places where people frequently congregate... such as issues with mice and bears. (Of course such 'problems' are not unique to shelters but also at popular camp sites as well).


And, garbage, contaminated water, exposed human feces and urine and soiled TP flowers, beaten down environments, nasty fire rings with food and packaging and all manner of other refuse, wildlife taken out of their natural patterns, depressed ground prone to mud and standing water, dog and "trail support animals" wastes not properly disposed, diseases/bacteria/viruses spread by human animals, noise/light/odor/other pollution point sources,... All from that loftiest supposedly most evolved most unique of animals, the human animal.


Very little appeal to staying at beaten down AT lean to's personally. But from the stand point of trail maintenance and exhibiting some control over the masses lean to's are fabulous.

[Huntmog]

And again i'll say that a year ago i wouldve sworn up and down in agreement with you. Could never understand the allure of shelters.

It also taught me to not knock it until i.v tried it....

[Dogwood]

I'm not of the opinion the AT doesn't need them. I'm of the knowing, I don't need them. If anything AT lean to locations tell me where NOT to sleep or NOT to gather water or NOT to linger.

[kevperro]

Shelters are great if you love rodents climbing on your face at night and enjoy listening to people snore. But it is an HYOH type of thing. I admit to using them when it made sense. If it is raining buckets shelters are a nice break. I was southbound though off-season. I cannot imagine what it would be like traveling north with the mob. I'd imagine shelter sites would be like visiting a small carnival in the thick of the thru-hiking season.

[MuddyWaters]

I have been in some torentual downpours on the trail. Some absolute rain all night “is this rain gunna rip thru my tent??!” Kinda downpours. I have never not ever once had an issue staying dry in my tent or thought “Man I wish I was in a shelter right now with a bunch of wet strangers.
But then again I am also the guy that preaches “buy once....”, “ya get what ya pay for...” etc etc...

i appreciate everyones input to the topic thus far, alot of thought in the responses
If its pouring
And you and gear is all wet

Everything gonna be wet when set up.
If its dry, it will be wet with condensation after take it out its little dry storage bag.

I hate hate hate setting up in rain, soaking wet. I dont mind hiking wet, but i like to dry up before setting up. Easy out west, hard on AT.

I will set up at 1 pm and call it a day to stay dry sometimes.
I can make those miles up another day, a nice day.
When people hike by me in rain after i set up before rain
I usually pass them next day while they drying their stuff

Shelters are handy in rain..especially for eating.

[Slo-go'en]

Gambit, I guess you've never been in a tent when the wind from a thunderstorm rips out the stakes and it collapses on top of ya. Fun you bet.

More often then not I'll opt to set up my tent at a shelter location rather then use the shelter which still has plenty of room. I have on occasion used a established and documented tent site between shelters. But only if there is water near-by.

What I will not do is leave a shelter area an hour or two before dark, hoping to find some random spot along the trail to camp at. That will often bite you in the butt and you'll end up having a very uncomfortable night on the side of a hill. Once you get into Virginia, the number of places one can set up camp along the side of the trail without a lot of site work is limited, by both vegetation and terrain. Finding a good spot as the sun is setting is like winning the power ball. It does happen, but rarely.

[Gambit McCrae]

Muddy / Slo- I respect you guys experience but have not had the same experiences. I have many times walked all day in the pouring rain. All my things are in a dyneema roll top pack liner. Set up the tent wet. Put pack against trekking pole, close door. Sit on tent floor and get out my 1 of 2 dry pack towels. Dry tent floor if needed. Change clothes. Put wet clothes in corner of tent. Put on dry clothes. Now i am sheltered(takes me about 2 minutes to setup my duplex). Now i can get out my dry pad, and sleeping bag. And let it continue to rain all night for all i care.
I have had a callapsed tent issue twice: once on jane bald in the roan highlands prior to a hurricane(was an awesomely violant night) and once at the shelter near wolf road in MD during a downpour on a tent pad that became eroded during the night.
As for VA being hard to find sleeping spots I cant relate. I completed Va in 13 trips. Most of which starting at between 10 pm friday night and 1am saturday morning. To me, if I only have to walk a couple miles after leaving the parking lot? No big deal. If i have to walk 6-11 miles after driving 5 hours to get to a designated spot? Turn on the enjoyment mode. I just sat in a car for 5 hours to walk. Now im walking. So lets walk till we find a spot to crash for the night.

I understand some folks like the shelters. And that others do not. The point of the thread was to let people exercise their thought process to brouden trip plans, to not limit themselves to hunkering down at the bold shelter location in the guide books.

I enjoy toms response the most. Everyone is at a different experience level. And the shelters serve their place. I personally am at a point where i feel more free on the AT ignoring the shelters as a “must have” destination for the night. My fear is, entering the whites in 2019, i will have to reverse this new found mentality, to stay at places i do not wish to stay at. Similar to the smokies

[rickb]

My fear is, entering the whites in 2019, i will have to reverse this new found mentality, to stay at places i do not wish to stay at. Similar to the smokies
The good news is the shelter areas in the Whites are generally in good condition, thanks in large measure to the AMC, which subsidizes about 50% of the cost to maintain them with member dues and profits from the Huts.

What makes the decision on whether or not to camp elsewhere difficult is the mix of places where camping at non designate sites is strictly prohibited or where it is simply impractical, and where it is absolutely wonderful.

There seem to be a lot more of the former than the latter - but worth the effort to consider all options.

[Odd Man Out]

I have never slept in a shelter. I do exactly what the OP described. About an hour before sunset I start looking for camp sites, by looking around and by checking maps. I will usually stop at a shelter for meals but then hike on to sleep elsewhere, even if it's only a mile or two. If I'm not cooking at the camp site, I don't worry so much about water. But love the OP I have two extra bladders I can fill up for dry camping where i have to cook. My best camp site ever was on the top of Sinking Creek Mtn. I could see from the map there was a long ridge walk with no water. I figued i may noy get down the other side befor sunset so I carried enough water for dinner and camping. I will stop in a shelter to sit out a storm, but have not yet had to set up camp in the rain. On my last SNP hike I was really lucky to come up to a shelter literally just seconds before a tremendous storm rolled in. But when it calms down, I keep hiking. However all these shelter stops are just fotuitous. I never plan a days schedule around shelter locations.

[TexasBob]

Gambit, I guess you've never been in a tent when the wind from a thunderstorm rips out the stakes and it collapses on top of ya. Fun you bet. ...............

This. Being in a shelter during a vicious thunderstorm beats a tent every time in my book. Tenting in nice weather is great but shelters have their own charm when the weather turns nasty.

[wordstew]

If you are talking about the 7 individuals killed on the AT proper, at least 6 of them were killed at shelters.

Molly LaRue, 25, from Shaker Heights, Ohio
Geoffrey Hood, 26, from Signal Mountain, Tennessee
Susan Ramsey, 27 from Ellsworth Maine
Robert Mountford, 27, from Ellsworth, Maine
Janice Balza, 22, from Madison, Wisconsin
Joel Polsom, 26, of Hartsville, South Carolina

The exact location of the killing of 7th individual, Scott Lilly, has not been published, though his body was found not far from one.

Other murders have been associated with the AT (bring the total to 11) but none of those were on the Trail itself. However in one of those crimes, one of the victims and her partner had an uncomfortable run in with the killer at an AT shelter.

One common thread to each murder at a shelter is that they occurred at time well outside of the busy season and the bubble of thru hikers. Another commonality is that all (or most, not sure about Joel Polsom) were AT thru hikers or in one case, a long-distance section hiker

Well from the looks at the list of people killed you you don't have to worry about getting murdered on or near the AT if you're older then your twenties

[QiWiz]

I tend to avoid shelters unless weather is awful. I may stop to socialize and even make a meal (usually dinner) but then usually move on to a more quiet and non-mousy place to camp. My shelter is small enough to fit just about anywhere I can throw down a sleeping pad. I tend to be an early to rise and early to bed kind of hiker. I sleep better and disturb others less when not in shelters. YMMV

[Gambit McCrae]

This. Being in a shelter during a vicious thunderstorm beats a tent every time in my book. Tenting in nice weather is great but shelters have their own charm when the weather turns nasty.

Geepers what in the world do the poor souls do on trails without shelters during those dreadful thundersterms? I guess they just sleep it out in collapsed tents everywhere.

3500 trail miles, 1 collapsed tent due to wind...Ill take my chances. I have many times arrived to an empty shelter location in the rain and set my tent up. I sleep as well in my tent as I do at home and personally love nothing more then the sound of rain hitting my tent. So I cant wait to have it set up during rain. Rain is rain, its all wet. Heavy rain or light rain ill be over here in my tent.

[Slo-go'en]

I guess I'm a lot more selectitve about where I camp then some of you. I'm also convinced that those who wander off the trail and into the brush to camp are much more likely to encounter Lyme infected ticks then those who stay on the trail and camp in well trodden areas clear of vegetation.

[Huntmog]

This thread is taking a turn. This is literally all about personal preference. There's a difference in saying "i don't personally like shelters for xyz reason, what about you?" And saying people only sleep in shelters out of fear./they must have the wrong gear. Most shelter dwellers do so selectively. I.e. during bad weather or if its empty etc.

I too have slept in a tent in the rain, even during Matthew, and it was fine. However, given the choice i personally prefer a shelter. I can walk around, i cam spread wet gear out much more, i can have space etc.

If you dont like it, more power to you. We all hike for personal enjoyment. However you find that without impacting others is your prerogative. And mine is mine.

[Obiwan]

I seldom sleep in a shelter unless it is required

[FrogLevel]

I never sleep in shelters but often pitch a tent nearby. I like having a table and a place to organize in the morning if its raining. When passing one I always stop in and sign the register while taking a break.

[TexasBob]

Geepers what in the world do the poor souls do on trails without shelters during those dreadful thundersterms? I guess they just sleep it out in collapsed tents everywhere.

3500 trail miles, 1 collapsed tent due to wind...Ill take my chances. I have many times arrived to an empty shelter location in the rain and set my tent up. I sleep as well in my tent as I do at home and personally love nothing more then the sound of rain hitting my tent. So I cant wait to have it set up during rain. Rain is rain, its all wet. Heavy rain or light rain ill be over here in my tent.

Guess this means I can have your spot in the shelter when it's raining cats and dogs. :)

[rickb]

Well from the looks at the list of people killed you you don't have to worry about getting murdered on or near the AT if you're older then your twenties

Not sure I would use the word “worry” but rather consider those factors/commonalities that have lead to such tragic ends in the past.

Age might be a factor, to be sure.

In all but one case on and along the Trail where the killer was found, there was either sexual violence, or in the Polsom case the kidnapping of a female companion, or a hate crime perpetrated agains two women. Might the victims’ age have been important to the evil solitary men who committed these crimes in that context? Possibly.

Another factor might be that when a young person is on the Trail for a while, they really feel like they own the environment (and shelters in particular) and conclude that a shelter on the AT really is as safe as their home in middle class suburbia.

This was most certainly my thinking when a local (locals ?) joined me at a shelter I thought I had to myself, who not only brandished a revolver, but relished in the fun of dry firing in all directions. No way was I going to push on — the shelter was mine, and besides, I was one to accept how people from different cultures (they were southern boys!) did things different. I rolled over and slept well.

Turned out fine. But probably not how I would react today if me and my wife ever encounter someone at a shelter that makes on of us uncomfortable.

They are are definitely not the safest place on the AT.

Of cousre shelters in the NOBO bubble make for a far different experience than they might be on a raw December day.

[scope]

I'm an introvert so I don't mind at all camping along the trail somewhere by myself, but I do like people, and like being around people. Sometimes I'd like a little conversation even for just a little bit, or even just an exchange of pleasantries. Sometimes I get more one-way talk than I bargained for, its all good. Its also convenient to have a flat space to sit and cook. I hang, so I'm never sleeping in a shelter, and never really in it, just around it.

I just can't imagine being in the rain and saying to myself, "oh, here's a good wet spot to plop down my tent". Seems to me, taking a light tarp ought to be a necessary piece of gear for all, not just hangers. A way to get out of the rain for a bit, even if just for lunch or whatever, but especially when trying to setup your camp. Easy for a hanger to do. And speaking of hanging, its a lot easier to pass by shelters and camp where you end up stopping, too, in a hammock setup.

[Five Tango]

Not sure I would use the word “worry” but rather consider those factors/commonalities that have lead to such tragic ends in the past.

Age might be a factor, to be sure.

In all but one case on and along the Trail where the killer was found, there was either sexual violence, or in the Polsom case the kidnapping of a female companion, or a hate crime perpetrated agains two women. Might the victims’ age have been important to the evil solitary men who committed these crimes in that context? Possibly.

Another factor might be that when a young person is on the Trail for a while, they really feel like they own the environment (and shelters in particular) and conclude that a shelter on the AT really is as safe as their home in middle class suburbia.

This was most certainly my thinking when a local (locals ?) joined me at a shelter I thought I had to myself, who not only brandished a revolver, but relished in the fun of dry firing in all directions. No way was I going to push on — the shelter was mine, and besides, I was one to accept how people from different cultures (they were southern boys!) did things different. I rolled over and slept well.

Turned out fine. But probably not how I would react today if me and my wife ever encounter someone at a shelter that makes on of us uncomfortable.

They are are definitely not the safest place on the AT.

Of cousre shelters in the NOBO bubble make for a far different experience than they might be on a raw December day.

In defense of other Southern Boyz I would like to point out that my father,a veteran of WW2,instructed my brother and me
quite seriously in gun safety.We were taught not to draw or point a firearm unless we intended to kill something or someone.Seriously,it's more than just an issue of etiquette and displaying a firearm is really in poor taste.

I would not have spent the night with some nut or nuts who were brandishing firearms but that's just me.Glad it turned out ok for you.

[stephanD]

I guess I'm a lot more selectitve about where I camp then some of you. I'm also convinced that those who wander off the trail and into the brush to camp are much more likely to encounter Lyme infected ticks then those who stay on the trail and camp in well trodden areas clear of vegetation.
Stealth camping is great for catching Lyme....

[Dogwood]

I just replied to littlerocks yellow springs thread about ignoring shelter sites which got me to thinking. A lot of folks wish the shelters were not there. But they are and always will be.

So on both my LDH's this year, I more or less excluded the shelters as nightly stops and chose camp sites that made sense with my day. The end result was more MPD, less annoyance of the cliental at shelters and overall I had a real great experience with that mentality. I would make sure that before I stopped I would have both smart water bottles filled up, and as well I carried a 2 liter sawyer bladder so I could fill that up if water was a couple miles prior to the tent site and then I had a full refill for the AM before leaving camp.

I also am now on the mindset of - If I am carrying this tent I am gunna use it every chance that I legally can. Which is another reason for the above mentality.

I know from personal experience that people use the shelter sites out of fear. Knowing that they probably will not be alone, there will be water there, whatever reason. But if people can break from that and dry camp, or use tenting sites - it may benefit them.

Thoughts? Can others relate?

Sure can relate. Drew Smith did a nice piece on this topic...for those interested in widening their skills with less dependence on shelters and CS's requiring water immediately at hand discussing the positives of dry camps.
https://www.trailgroove.com/issue29.html?autoflip=107

[Durunner]

I'm a hammock hanger. I'd say I'm about 50/50. The only time I've actually stayed in shelters itself were recent trips. I actually hung my hammock in a shelter after I was caught in a downpour. It was great, so the next trip, when I figured I'm spending the night alone, I did the same. Other than that, I just go whatever planned mileage I think I can do that day and either camp in a campsite alone or by a shelter. I often go pretty off season and during the week, so frequently have shelters to myself. Even then, I'll usually do all my tasks at the shelter and leave my gear there, but hang and sleep nearby.

[tdoczi]

This thread is taking a turn. This is literally all about personal preference. There's a difference in saying "i don't personally like shelters for xyz reason, what about you?" And saying people only sleep in shelters out of fear./they must have the wrong gear. Most shelter dwellers do so selectively. I.e. during bad weather or if its empty etc.

I too have slept in a tent in the rain, even during Matthew, and it was fine. However, given the choice i personally prefer a shelter. I can walk around, i cam spread wet gear out much more, i can have space etc.

If you dont like it, more power to you. We all hike for personal enjoyment. However you find that without impacting others is your prerogative. And mine is mine.
this topic is one of a small handful that comes up regularly on here where one side can't seem to discuss it, or at times even just let others discuss it, without making thinly veiled disparaging remarks. try and start a thread discussing issues at a shelter or shelters and see how long it is before someone chimes in with "well thats why you shouldn't stay at shelters." or "why would anyone want to stay a shelter in the first place."?

some of the others include "why would anyone want to hike that fast?" said in reply to someone's proposed itinerary being more miles a day than they personally can handle and "i carry over 50 lbs" when someone tries to discuss how to carry less weight.

note there are no equal but opposite arguments. no one ever says "i really don't get why anyone disperse camps in a tent" or "you should really try and hike faster."

i always find it rather curious.

[MuddyWaters]

Geepers what in the world do the poor souls do on trails without shelters during those dreadful thundersterms? I guess they just sleep it out in collapsed tents everywhere.

3500 trail miles, 1 collapsed tent due to wind...Ill take my chances. I have many times arrived to an empty shelter location in the rain and set my tent up. I sleep as well in my tent as I do at home and personally love nothing more then the sound of rain hitting my tent. So I cant wait to have it set up during rain. Rain is rain, its all wet. Heavy rain or light rain ill be over here in my tent.

I love sleeping in tarp in rain
Lift head up and see rain pouring off tarp only inches away, while snug and dry

But i hate setting up in rain. And packing up.

And if it's thundering and lightning and I had the pitch under trees I don't sleep too well until it slacks up a little bit.

The overriding problem with shelters is simply the sheer number of people they attract, and all the problems that brings. In the spring in the bubble, the vast majority of people at the shelter are not in the shelter. 58 of those 70 people could have dispersed...many of these people are psychologically attached to shelters and will not camp anywhere else. Many thru-hikers never spent a night alone on the trail either. They are scared to.

It's so common to see people pitched on horrible sloping ground that's hard-packed around shelters, and then a hundred yards farther down the trail is nice flat ground with nobody there

[WTX2WY]

If you are talking about the 7 individuals killed on the AT proper, at least 6 of them were killed at shelters.

Molly LaRue, 25, from Shaker Heights, Ohio
Geoffrey Hood, 26, from Signal Mountain, Tennessee
Susan Ramsey, 27 from Ellsworth Maine
Robert Mountford, 27, from Ellsworth, Maine
Janice Balza, 22, from Madison, Wisconsin
Joel Polsom, 26, of Hartsville, South Carolina

The exact location of the killing of 7th individual, Scott Lilly, has not been published, though his body was found not far from one.

Other murders have been associated with the AT (bring the total to 11) but none of those were on the Trail itself. However in one of those crimes, one of the victims and her partner had an uncomfortable run in with the killer at an AT shelter.

One common thread to each murder at a shelter is that they occurred at time well outside of the busy season and the bubble of thru hikers. Another commonality is that all (or most, not sure about Joel Polsom) were AT thru hikers or in one case, a long-distance section hiker


Long but good read about Molly and Geoff, from a hiker who met them on the trail (https://www.outsideonline.com/2011326/murder-appalachian-trail)

[BradMT]

On my summer's long walk of the AT in 1977, my partner and I stayed at a shelter just over the GA/NC border and experienced some "paranormal" activity overnight... the Postmaster at Fontana Damn chalked it up to the wandering spirit/murder of Joel Polsom 3 years earlier at the Low Gap Trail Shelter.

[middle to middle]

Nothing better on a cold windy rainy day ware there is also a pile of firewood!

[HooKooDooKu]

...I actually hung my hammock in a shelter...
While I don't know the rules for the bulk of the AT, in GSMNP, you are NOT allowed to attach your hammock to any part of the shelter (or any other structure).

[Dogwood]

I'm a hammock hanger. I'd say I'm about 50/50. The only time I've actually stayed in shelters itself were recent trips. I actually hung my hammock in a shelter after I was caught in a downpour. It was great, so the next trip, when I figured I'm spending the night alone, I did the same. Other than that, I just go whatever planned mileage I think I can do that day and either camp in a campsite alone or by a shelter. I often go pretty off season and during the week, so frequently have shelters to myself. Even then, I'll usually do all my tasks at the shelter and leave my gear there, but hang and sleep nearby.

Hanging in a shelter during high use periods like any time other than maybe winter is a good way to start confrontations. Some AT lean to's are rather rickety for hanging. In my limited winter hanging experiences inside AT lean to's I sometimes had to take down the hang because the shelter was moving from my 205 lb wt. It can be done though when alone setting up after 10 p.m., and where legal and safe for the shelter. Sucks, having to take down the hang when snuggled in falling to sleep when late arriving after 10 p.m folks also seeking to stay inside the shelter appear. They have as much right to appropriate space in the shelter as me taking up more space than etiquette allows.

[Slumgum]

I hiked the Long Trail this year to prep for a 2019 AT thru hike. I much preferred tenting. That said, there were times when after slogging through miles of mud holes for days on end and setting up and taking down my tent in the rain over and over that eventually almost all my gear was damp if not soaked. (Pack covers and trash compactor bags can only do so much!) So, I see a place for shelters. Perhaps some who brag about exclusively tenting on the trail are the same ones taking a couple of zeroes in town every week? Either way, that is OK since, ultimately, there is no "right" or "wrong" way to hike.

As for interaction, in my experience, a significant number of hikers at shelters spent more time fixated on their little glowing stroke and poke devices than conversing with fellow hikers. Still, I met some wonderful people at shelters. Looking forward to the AT.

[Dogwood]

....As for interaction, in my experience, a significant number of hikers at shelters spent more time fixated on their little glowing stroke and poke devices than conversing with fellow hikers. Still, I met some wonderful people at shelters. Looking forward to the AT.

Last yr finishing up another PCT completion at Crater Lake NP outside the Mazama Village Store where many PCTers send a box or supplement, outside at the three picnic tables with 17 other PCTers, most of whom were NOBO thrus, 15 Zombies were fixated solely on their devices while not interacting personally face to face with anyone. Then again, last yr Cali legalized too with most PCTers taking advantage, from what I could tell.

[bighammer]

Even when there were shelters, I was more comfortable in my tent. I camped at shelters only a few times, only because I ended up there when I felt done for the day. Often some interesting people to mingle with.

[MyMusclesHurt]

I think we are all individuals, we make choices. As a 18 year old I stayed in the shelters a lot. Likely I was part of the drunken noise making, light flashing annoyance so many have described. Now at 60 plus I would prefer a quiet 7-8 pm bedtime in my own tent. However, on a cold rainy night neither the 18 year old in me or the 60 plus year old I have become would turn down a roof and 3 sides. I’m glad the shelters are there, and thankful to those who maintain them. Use them if you want, if not hike on. “Hike your own hike”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nooga]

I don't mind camping near a shelter to take advantage of water source & privy. But I never sleep in the shelter.

[Bubblehead]

I prefer not to stay at shelters, but in my travels between Springer Approach and just south of Mt Everett in Mass. (1511 miles), they sure do come in handy when it's pouring outside and you want to keep your gear dry as possible...and also on days where you're just flat out worn out and don't have the energy to put up your tent.

[LittleRock]

You can rant and rave about loving or hating AT shelters, but the fact of the matter is they're there. Use them if you like them, avoid them if you don't. HYOH!

I'm usually about 50/50 staying at shelter sites/non-shelter sites. Really it's all about convenience - if a shelter site lines up nicely with my mileage plan, I take advantage of it. Other times, I've shown up at a shelter site, decided I didn't like the company, and moved on. When staying at a shelter site, I usually tent if it's not raining. I've also noticed that I tend to get lazy and stay at more shelters the longer I'm out.

For example, on my last trip I was out for 8 nights. I spent 3 nights camped at shelter sites, 3 nights camped at non-shelter sites, 1 night IN a shelter, and 1 night in a hostel.

One of those days, I had planned to camp at a non-shelter site, showed up and looked around for 10 minutes and there were no decent places to pitch a tent, so I ended up walking an extra 2 miles to the next shelter. Turned out great, the shelter site was beautiful and I had it all to myself. The weather was nice and there were lots of good tent sites, so I still ended up camping about 50 feet away.

Another day, I spent the afternoon power hiking the last 8 miles trying to beat an approaching rain storm to the shelter. Also turned out great - I showed up dry, went to get water, and it started drizzling on the way back. Two minutes later, it started pouring and I decided to spend the night in the shelter. The pouring rain continued until after midnight. Let me tell you, the 4 of us there were all very thankful for that shelter!

[LittleRock]

What I will not do is leave a shelter area an hour or two before dark, hoping to find some random spot along the trail to camp at. That will often bite you in the butt and you'll end up having a very uncomfortable night on the side of a hill. Once you get into Virginia, the number of places one can set up camp along the side of the trail without a lot of site work is limited, by both vegetation and terrain. Finding a good spot as the sun is setting is like winning the power ball. It does happen, but rarely.
This is absolutely true. Some of my worst camping experiences on the AT have come when I tried to do this. And yes, most of them were in Virginia.

One time, even though I was probably 100 yards off-trail, a local must have seen my tent and decided to mess with me by firing 6 rifle shots directly over my tent at 4 AM. Needless to say, I got a very early start the next morning.

The last time I did a true "stealth" camp was in SNP. It was 40F, windy, and raining hard, I'd been walking in it all afternoon, and it was still several miles to the next hut. I started feeling hypothermic. I came upon one of the PATC maintenance huts, which was locked. I ended up setting up my tent under the roof overhang in front of the hut and then moving it out into the rain, right in front of the "No Camping" sign. I figured no one would show up in such terrible weather, and no one did. Took a hot meal and over an hour in my bag to get warmed up.

[Crushed Grapes]

One time, even though I was probably 100 yards off-trail, a local must have seen my tent and decided to mess with me by firing 6 rifle shots directly over my tent at 4 AM. Needless to say, I got a very early start the next morning.
Ok this is terrifying. Jesus

[Deadeye]

The Long Trail is my home, and often the shelter area is the only legal place to stay or camp. On the LT, I've cowboy camped, tented, hammocked, and stayed in shelters and lodges, alone or with others. Every camp has it's pros & cons, and just about every night on the trail is a good night.

[Lone Wolf]

The Long Trail is my home, and often the shelter area is the only legal place to stay or camp. On the LT, I've cowboy camped, tented, hammocked, and stayed in shelters and lodges, alone or with others. Every camp has it's pros & cons, and just about every night on the trail is a good night.

used to go to jay camp a lot in the winter when i lived there. would have a fire in the woodstove after snowshoein' thru 3-5 foot of snow

[Slo-go'en]

used to go to jay camp a lot in the winter when i lived there. would have a fire in the woodstove after snowshoein' thru 3-5 foot of snow

Those were the days. I'm pretty sure you were in Jay the same time I was down the hill at the bankrupt ski lodge. There's only one wood stove left on the LT, down by Manchester Center. I can't remember exactly which one. Spruce Peak might be it.

[tdoczi]

and also on days where you're just flat out worn out and don't have the energy to put up your tent.
if i'm hiking the way i aim to hike, thats EVERY day.

[Rift Zone]

I used my tent almost every night. The only time I can legitimately sleep without one is when it's too cold for bugs. They'll wake me and keep me up, so "shelter" for me specifically means from bugs and weather. That ruled out the wooden structures most of the time.

I probably camped at the shelter sites ~65% of the time. Mostly for the social aspect. As for the other ~35%, it was much like OP describes: more convenient to the day's hike! The spacing of shelters minimally impacts how far I go any given day.