View Full Version : The synthetic vs down debate continues…
Im sure this topic has been beaten to death. Lord knows ive gone back and forth myself on it many times and still am clearly. I have 2 down jackets. One a very expensive light hoodie one. And one cheap department store one that’s got no hood but is still quite light and cost under $30. The weight difference between the two is negligible and so this topic is a matter of if I bring one of them instead of my synthetic.
but while im mentioning both of them - the cheap one will fit under my raincoat better, and it won’t upset me if it gets trashed on the hike, ill still have my nicer one for town and dry day hikes... On the other hand im sure its not as warm. but again as I’d likely be using it just for around camp, I could add my raincoat to protect the down from rain when needed, and or to add warmth. I’ve already learned not to hike in down as you sweat right through it.
But here’s the rub, and maybe I’ve already answered my own question above. Down is useless for warmth when it gets wet. I bought a nano puff a few years ago because of this (hoodless) which I adore. It’s a few ounces heavier than my down coats but as a synthetic there’s no risk of losing warmth if its wet. There are many times ive been caught out in it and it rained and I was glad I had it vs my down coats. I do look at the forecast so I do plan accordingly but you’re not always in control of the weather are you. So neither are the weather apps…
I’m planning a multi-week to multi month A.T. hike in the spring and I am still conflicted on which jacket to bring. One of the down jackets (hood? No hood?) or the synthetic? I don’t care about 4 extra ounces for such a critical item. The synthetic has the added benefit of being able to hike in it in cold weather without sweating through enough that it loses insulation power. And keeping warm in camp without the raincoat if it starts to rain a bit and I still have camp chores to do.. I always have the raincoat. the down is a little lighter and compacts down much better than the nano puff in a pack. As I own all these already , im not inquiring what to buy, but what to bring.
It’s never mattered so much before because ive never been out more than 3-4 days and I can manage in the worst case till I get home. This hike will be at least 3-4 weeks. In spring, either from springer nobo or HF nobo. Your advice is appreciated. Again sorry if this is a repeat topic.
another reason i ask is pretty much EVERY thru hiker i've watched videos of, or read posts from, use down and not synthetic because of weight, so it makes me doubt the theory and experience i have that synthetic is better.
Hiking around here in the Alps and in the Middle East desert sure is different from the AT, but I usually bring both, a cheap synthetic (an old Fleece jacket) to hike in when ist chilly, and a down jacket just in case it really gets cold.
The down jacket sits in the pack most of the time and serves as a perfect pillow over night, but there are times I would have got into serious troubles if I hadn't have it.
The down jacket also serves as a double-up for the mid-weight sleeping bag if necessary.
Synthetic vs Down: I assume that anyone who uses a down coat also employs a rain jacket over it when it's wet outside. I certainly do, and don't find it too arduous. I think for those 4oz the convenience of not having to wear a raincoat over your insulating jacket is what you're getting. Whether that factor is worth the tradeoff for you would be the question.
Cheap vs Expensive: I'm a big fan of using the crap out of my expensive gear. That's what I pay for! I wouldn't save my "better" jacket for town; I'm much more likely to have a crappy town jacket while using my good stuff for the more extreme circumstances.
Hood vs No Hood: For me, I find that a hood offers so much more warmth-to-weight ratio than a hat, it's not even close for me. So long as it's a good hood -- one that I can wear and still have peripheral visibility and freedom of head movement. So I bring a very thin separate head covering (like a Buff), and use hoods for any real warmth.
Sweating While Hiking: Something as thick as a down or equivalent synthetic jacket is not typically something I'd ever wear while hiking. I don't worry too much about dampening the insulation with evaporating perspiration because for me a layer that warm is typically reserved for sitting around camp in the evening. Maybe I run warm, but even in the dead of winter here in Oregon that would be too much for me to wear during heavy physical activity. If I were planning on hiking in temperatures cold enough to warrant insulation that extensive, I'd definitely go with not only something synthetic (or wool), but also something specially designed for ventilation during that activity. In the usual case, like Leo, I add a thin fleece layer while hiking if it's cold enough, and also carry the down jacket for camp.
When are you getting on the trail? Anytime after mid March, I'd probably lean towards the synthetic for personal use. All that said, you should also carefully evaluate how you've allowed down to get wet in the past and consider ways you could have avoided it.
johnacraft
12-19-2018, 13:33
Down is useless for warmth when it gets wet.
That's true for untreated down, but many down bags and jackets sold today are filled with down treated with a hydrophobic coating, so it can continue to insulate if wet.
Your $30 jacket probably isn't, but your more expensive down jacket may be - check the specs.
another reason i ask is pretty much EVERY thru hiker i've watched videos of, or read posts from, use down and not synthetic because of weight, so it makes me doubt the theory and experience i have that synthetic is better.
They're probably wearing a jacket with treated down.
That's true for untreated down, but many down bags and jackets sold today are filled with down treated with a hydrophobic coating, so it can continue to insulate if wet.
Your $30 jacket probably isn't, but your more expensive down jacket may be - check the specs.
They're probably wearing a jacket with treated down.
It's worth noting that the two companies with the most experience producing high end down products have continued to avoid treated down. I'm not sure what all their arguments are for and against, but they're clearly not sold on it yet.
depends - either very late march, or mid-late april. still some determining factors that haven't been sorted yet. same goes with starting point. depending on a few things it will be either mid atlantic or springer which obviously makes a difference in temperatures due to altitude. by personal use do you mean keep the down for hiking at camp, and the synthetic for around town?
yeah re allowing down to get wet thats how i learned quick not to hike in it but i did it because so many thrus i see still do it though when its cold. i guess i sweat more than some. i always have a fleece mid layer. i also have a houdini which i adore and weighs zilch but also seems superfluous with a fleece and a waterproof coat along.
By personal use, I meant that's how I do it myself as an individual decision. Sorry for the vague wording.
If you're actually going to be hiking in it on a regular basis, I'd just use the synthetic. That late in the year I don't see a real advantage for down. It's great for warmth to weight ratio and static use (sleeping bags, for example). However, for active use you'll get a lot more functionality from a decent synthetic alternative.
looks like our posts crossed and you already answered some of these for me, thanks, you're probably right about the treated down. but when i hiked in my coat on a cold day i sweated it out quick where my pack rested against my back.ill check if its treated. the coat is a wescomb cayush hoodie, been trying to sell it here but no luck... my pack is an exos 48. i think i would just hike in the fleece and my raincoat when cold (and a wool baselayer) and keep the down hoodie for camp. i do use a buff and a beanie as well when needed. usually the beanie is just for bed time and the buff is my head protection while hiking. my sleeping bag is a BA BootJack 24 which i think is warm enough with my long johns and insulated thermarest xlite. ive used it down to 20 before comfortably.
ill keep the nano puff for skiing and town i think, and make sure to have a fleece ( i use the patagonia dual aspect) , raincoat (patagonia torrentshell), and my cayoosh in the bag for camp. ill leave home the cheap down coat and as much as i love it, the houdini, cause its not needed with all these things already along.
Caleb - just saw your post when i finished writing my last. thanks for the suggestion. any other supporters of the synthetic over the down? the rest of the system will stay as is. raincoat and fleece...
looking now at weights i see the nanopuff is actually only .9 oz heavier than the cayoosh, and stuffs into its own pocket... sure it doesn't have a hood but i have that covered
Just Bill
12-19-2018, 14:13
It's worth noting that the two companies with the most experience producing high end down products have continued to avoid treated down. I'm not sure what all their arguments are for and against, but they're clearly not sold on it yet.
At best... one might argue that humidity creep might be addressed by treated down.
I'd say I could go from didn't like it to 'can't hurt' at this point.
Otherwise I still don't see any reports of folks treating treated down like synthetics when it counts.
ill keep the nano puff for skiing and town i think, and make sure to have a fleece ( i use the patagonia dual aspect) , raincoat (patagonia torrentshell), and my cayoosh in the bag for camp. ill leave home the cheap down coat and as much as i love it, the houdini, cause its not needed with all these things already along.
Out east in three seasons... for any piece I would wear awake in any fashion I'm still a synthetic fan.
Out west or in true winter (with careful monitoring of your sweat levels)... down is nice.
Though I often still wear synthetic as a primary insulation layer with perhaps a puffy/vest over the top of that but under a shell.
A good rule of thumb I still like:
Whatever you choose for your primary insulation for sleeping (quilt, sleeping bag), choose the opposite or synthetic as a safety choice.
So typical 20* down quilt... use synthetic as your insulation clothing.
Wet trip in the middle of monsoon season... probably synthetic for both.
Feral Bill
12-19-2018, 14:14
For serious cold weather in camp, none of the above. The Nano Puff lacks sufficient puff, as would down jackets lighter than it. Look around for a truly puffy layer (maybe a vest), with 3-5 ounces of good down. If you leave in mid April from say, Harpers Ferry, it won't matter so much.
Personally, for use on the AT, I prefer synthetic. It is almost always damp while I am out and don't mind the extra bit of weight for the benefit of the synthetic. Additionally, using my rain layer over it if needed in camp has never been an issue.
Just Bill
12-19-2018, 14:24
Caleb - just saw your post when i finished writing my last. thanks for the suggestion. any other supporters of the synthetic over the down? the rest of the system will stay as is. raincoat and fleece...
looking now at weights i see the nanopuff is actually only .9 oz heavier than the cayoosh, and stuffs into its own pocket... sure it doesn't have a hood but i have that covered
A thought to ponder...
While many think of synthetic insulation as a down alternative... where it actually fits in more realistically for LD hiking is as a fleece alternative.
A primaloft piece is often lighter and more versatile than the old 100wt, 200wt, or even Cap 4 (thermal weight grid fleece).
Point being... a synthetic vest as that baselayer insulation with a down pufffy for camp is not a bad combo. Just make sure you size things for layering.
This also gives you a synthetic insulation piece you can wear under your rainshell without having to freak out if you sweat a little too much on the 100' stretch of climbing as you're up on a ridge or as you warm up in the morning.
A down 'stop piece' where you can instantly pile on 10-20* of warmth is nice.
But so is a movement piece of insulation and often a synthetic jacket better does that job these days than a fleece.
I'm a huge fan of the nano-air synthetic for this use and wear a nano-air vest nearly every day when it's cooler. It self regulates better than down, breathes very well when worn as an outer piece, and insulates great under a shell.
The other plus with synthetics may be style... I do still build a fire or occasionally walk through some brush.
I have yet to cry or dig frantically for the repair kit when a spark or snag hits my synthetic pieces.
Nor have I yet found an 'empty chamber' in a synthetic when a tear went unnoticed.
Usually the bottom line for me:
Use/Abuse/Beat your synthetic when you're awake.
Save/protect/Baby your down when you're asleep.
I can't imagine hiking in a puffy. That's a mistake if epic proportions unless it's subzero temps with a wind. Puffys are for when you aren't hiking. I've not cared if it was synthetic or down, as long as it was light and warm.
thats why it always suprises me when i see people hiking in them. it sure didnt work out for me! thanks all. all good info, keep it comin
Thedude18e
12-19-2018, 15:00
OK..1st there is no such thing as warm when wet unless you're wearing a neoprene wet suit. It's just physics. Water will conduct the heat away from your body. What most people are concerned with is ambient humidity. To combat this most newer down jackets have down that is treated to be water resistant. These jackets are just as, if not warmer than synthetic jackets under the same conditions. The one advantage to synthetic is in the case of a total soaking for example if it was submerged in a creek or left out in the rain. In either of those events synthetic insulation would be easier to dry out and restore the loft. Overall, down has better loft that lasts longer, it's lighter, and compresses better. If you're concerned about sweat while wearing down, just take it off when you're hiking, wear a fleece and maybe a wind breaker or rain jacket.
Puddlefish
12-19-2018, 15:02
I can't imagine hiking in a puffy. That's a mistake if epic proportions unless it's subzero temps with a wind. Puffys are for when you aren't hiking. I've not cared if it was synthetic or down, as long as it was light and warm.
+1
I sweat too much when moving for an insulated layer. Starting in early March at Springer A nylon short sleeve t shirt, and a nylon long sleeve quarter zip shirt was all I needed. Used a down puffy (after cooling/drying off) when I stopped for a long lunch and in the evenings. If I was cold when walking, it was due to wind, and I occasionally broke out a wind shirt for a third layer.
I carried a lightweight fleece for a walking insulating layer, and the only time I used it was when I was doing laundry. By April, I was down to a single layer, and I mailed the fleece home.
You're going out on the AT in Mar-Apr. It's assumed you'll have wet weather protection. Whether down or synthetic jacket it's assumed you're not going to let the piece get totally soaked, damp maybe, but not soaked. Experiencing drenched 100% non insulative down apparel is a rarity...OR should be!
In wet humid environments like the southeastern AT in Mar-Apr I lean towards the latest synthetic jackets or down jackets that aren't necessarily manufactured using hydrophobic down but with consideration of protective face fabrics and a qualitative functional DWR. Your $30 dept store down piece likely doesn't offer these qualities and will wet out quickly or even if does have a DWR it's not a high quality DWR.
So, either down jackets noting the particulars or a synthetic can work if you work it.
The trip will be at least 3-4 wks on the AT but you will not(likely) be out on trail with no capability of ever drying a down piece for 3-4 wks. When doing a resupply stop at the laundromat as most do on the AT. The AT is a more forgiving comfortable 3-4 wk hike with oodles of amenities and conveniences.
OK..1st there is no such thing as warm when wet unless you're wearing a neoprene wet suit. It's just physics. Water will conduct the heat away from your body. What most people are concerned with is ambient humidity. To combat this most newer down jackets have down that is treated to be water resistant. These jackets are just as, if not warmer than synthetic jackets under the same conditions.
Hydrophobic down may (or may not, depending on which manufacturer's perspective you look at) be an improvement, but it's still affected by moisture to a significantly greater degree than any modern synthetic.
As to 'warm when wet' - that may be true to a point. However, those of us who sweat at the slightest exertion are forced to choose our battles. There is no layering option I can choose that will not leave me wet if I'm hiking at a moderate pace up any sort of incline. That leaves me avoiding down entirely (except for static in-camp use) above freezing and choosing a light fleece or synthetic mid layer along with a houdini or equivalent to compensate for changing terrain/wind/temperature on a typical shoulder season day.
thanks everyone these are all awesome arguments and ideas. as is obvious i clearly run hot when hiking. i rarely hike in more than a long sleet synthetic or wool base and either my houdini or my dual aspect. i even hate the feeling of hiking in a rain coat as i heat up so much even with pit zips and dont use the raincoat in hot weather. just when its cold to prevent getting to the shivering stage. being rained on is fun when its hot as hell out and you're doing all that climbing and hiking. but i do get cold when not moving and thats when i would throw on the jacket. down or primaloft. considering their weight is practically the same and the primaloft is less fragile in a few areas, i am leaning towards that and keep the rest as is.
i choose the long sleeve base because i can always roll up the sleeves but have them when needed for extra warmth. in the summer i go short sleeve
Outside of the mid summer months I regularly layer in a light down or light synthetic vest when backpacking and hiking whether on the move or in camp. A vest and a 150-260 wt or so 1/4 zip LS merino shirt tend to be staples in my kit. With those less experienced, on the AT in particular, I see more folks more often having a heavier and warmer than absolutely required jacket. The packing out of fear and unfamiliarity factor possibly at work?
my favorite mid layer is my dual aspect. had an r3 too which is lighter but otherwise very similar and kept going back to the dual aspect. i even use it as a skiing/snowboarding mid layer. its very durable and breathes great.
maybe i should just ditch the jacket altogether since i have a wool base layer long sleeve, the dual aspect which is quite warm and rugged, and a raincoat for water protection and heat retention. and throw in the houdini for when i want a windbreaker....
my favorite mid layer is my dual aspect. had an r3 too which is lighter but otherwise very similar and kept going back to the dual aspect. i even use it as a skiing/snowboarding mid layer. its very durable and breathes great.
In that case you might want to consider a 4 torso apparel layering approach with each layer having insulting qualities that cumulatively address warmth under a diversity of applications/conditions rather than the heavy puffy thinking it's the only or main insulating piece only used when in camp approach. When done well with each of the 4 layers light enough to not get overly bulky and chosen for the hike's and one's own backpacking style it can also save wt. If you do this you'll start moving away from getting into narrowed dichotomous down verse synthetic main insulating debates incorporating insulating pieces made of other materials or a combination of materials like merino and composite apparel pieces. You'll also start recognizing every layer has the ability to insulate, add warmth.
yeah im kinda heading that direction too - look at my next post from the one you quoted.. i was getting there when you were! layering rules. especially when you overheat easily
LazyLightning
12-19-2018, 19:21
I've never tried synthetic but I would never wear my down outdoors with a rain jacket over it... first of all, if it's warm enough to rain it is way to warm for any down. Also, a rain jacket never keeps you 100% dry no matter how good of a rain jacket it is and I would not want to compromise my down underneath. If it's warm enough to rain, I hardly ever even need a base layer under my rain jacket while I'm actually hiking.
I carried a good winter down bag and a hooded down jacket then switched to my 35 degree down for summer, swapped back before the Whites. You hear so much about "down is no good when wet" but I had absolutely 0 issues on my hike. As far as I'm concerned any down should be put away water proof (and water proofed very well) just like camp clothes. I admit I'm overboard but I had heavy duty water proof sacks for my dry stuff, my pack was highly water resistant and I still used a liner and a pack cover.... no way I was getting to camp with wet stuff.
I always recommend a hood because what's the weight difference like 1 oz? ….. the warmth you get with a hooded down compared to without is such a difference I can't imagine compromising without it.
nsherry61
12-19-2018, 21:00
Yet another opinion.
Please don't fool yourself into thinking that synthetic is warm when wet. IT IS NOT! Yes, synthetic is warmer than down when wet and synthetic dries more quickly than down, but wet synthetic is frigged cold also! You gotta keep your insulation dry no matter what you choose for that insulation. I disagree with Just Bill in that I wouldn't want to hike in synthetic insulation. I would carry the extra weight and bulk of fleece if I planned on being active in my insulation. Fleece is just that much better than any puffy at keeping you warm with wet or even just damp.
I prefer the loft of damp synthetic to damp down (only a serious mistake or true idiocy leads to soaking wet insulation, so I don't consider than a particularly important issue). If I'm planning on endless daily drizzle and rain, life is much easier with synthetic. On the other hand, if we are dealing with dramatic storms or otherwise occasional rain punctuated with drier times and/or sunny hours or days, I prefer down as keeping it dry instead of constantly damp is pretty easy and it is much puffier and lighter than any current synthetics.
MuddyWaters
12-19-2018, 23:08
Synthetic simply degrades quickly.
Both my synthetic bag and jackets show this
I wear nano puff around for daily wear.
I got one I slept in
Flat flat flat...no loft at all. I can wear it in house without being too warm
I just got a new one..,.significantly more loft...significantly warmer too.
I
"If it's warm enough to rain, I hardly ever even need a base layer under my rain jacket while I'm actually hiking."
Hmm, i'd like to hear more. :rolleyes: Then, by that statement maybe it's too warm to be wearing a rain jacket just hike wet as I thought you wrote you do?
I used to do this(just a rain or wind jacket over skin) but found without a Next to Skin(NTS) layer breathability, durability, and other performance traits of the rain or wind jacket decreasing from oils, sweat, body salts, body grime, applied bug juice/sun screens, and hygiene products and things like sticking zippers and velcro cuffs increasingly prone to failure. My use, as you've described yourself doing, resulted in several rain jacket delimitation issues, very pricey rain jackets, making my decisions a pricey mistaken approach. Rain and wind jackets already can have performance compromised from external sources(DWR degraded from unnecessary abuse and wear and not being 'refreshed', external grime, smoke, dust, not being cleaned appropriately, etc) without me adding to internal sources as well. THEN, what typically ensues is blaming the rain jacket's performance - breathability, not truly durably WP assertions, design was faulty, marketing BS was hype claims, I wasn't thermoregulating effectively because of the rain or wind jacket, etc. It's not always all the gear's fault!
I've accepted virtually all backpacking problems, including gear failures, appropriate thermoregulation while backpacking, and kit issues begins with me as the greatest causal component. I am usually my own worst enemy. I'm not the only one who has ever been in this place! If I'm going to be better, do better, it has to begin by me personally being better - changing, being willing to harshly examine my own actions, challenging norms - not necessarily knee jerk focusing on externalities as the primary cause of challenges. That's how I evolve - advance - get better, as a backpacker...a road always under construction.
"I always recommend a hood because what's the weight difference like 1 oz? ….. the warmth you get with a hooded down compared to without is such a difference I can't imagine compromising without it."
There's virtually always a price difference too. For example, the Patagonia Nano Puff Jacket with hood is $40- 50 extra than without the hood?
You don't have to compromise warmth when going without a hood! Want greater apparel/accessory versatility and possibly lesser wt while quite possibly being just as warm than an attached puffy hood while maybe saving a few bucks for that in town well earned cold one at the end of a hike try the .6 oz Smartwool 150 wt NTS merino micro beanie at about $20. Over the last almost three yrs this has become my goto beanie. It hits the shweet spot. Ryan Jordan at BPL, who I think still lives in Montana and hikes there yr round, just said the same thing recommending it in the 2018-19 Publisher's Gear Guide. https://www.rei.com/product/112548/smartwool-nts-merino-150-beanie?CAWELAID=&cm_mmc=PLA_bng%7C404_1050537077%7C%7Cnone%7C57970b 3e-1af4-47a7-a6bc-47c68cdc85eb%7Cpla-4585100929475764&kclid=57970b3e-1af4-47a7-a6bc-47c68cdc85eb&msclkid=3ac9bc24f1801a56a391e03fc20e267f
https://backpackinglight.com/publishers-gear-guide-backpacking-2018-2019/
Want more combine it with a synthetic light-mid wt BUFF for around the neck(neck gaiter) or face protection or ear band over the SW NTS Beanie @ about 1.4 ozs additional(about $15-20) OR opt for a Lightweight - Mid wt Merino BUFF @ 1.7 - 2.3 ozs(about $25-$30) for milder to harsher winter backpacking/hiking conditions worn alone Shemagh style. If having a shell or wind jacket with a hood that can be layered over the top for additional warmth. What's one of the first things that heat up? It can be the top of the head. I'm often willing to give up a backbreaking oz maybe two to achieve greater apparel /accessory versatility and micro thermoregulating. Seriously, how many of us are that SUL across the board with everything typically carried and skin out that an oz or two makes that serious a quantifiable dent in comfort and personalized physical performance metrics? I for one used to believe BUFFS were a passing fad or limited in use or for "girls." Wow, I was wrong. Many thanks to a female backpacker friend who finally setting me straight! Now a BUFF is always part of my kit rather than the old Hippie bandanna.
https://www.buffusa.com/shop-buff/men/multifunctional-headwear-category/lightweight-merino-wool-family.html
Don't want to drop the do re mi on a NICE ready to unwrap trail stylin' BUFF look for a knock off at around $10 or make your own as an easy peasy DIY beginner project.
If you want to do the hood great HYOH but there are options.