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Game Warden
01-06-2019, 22:33
I'm not asking about theft at parking lots, trailheads, etc. I know that happens, usually from non-hikers. I mean theft in the back country, on the AT or other trails, where the most likely culprits are other hikers. How common is it, if at all?

Rain Man
01-06-2019, 22:59
Nada in my experience. Rather just the reverse, hikers offer each other help, gear, food, rides, etc.

fastfoxengineering
01-06-2019, 23:04
It's happened.

But it's very far from common or normal.

It shoudnt be an issue anyways because as a hiker you are responsible for keeping your pack and equipment in check.

With that said, i have zero problems leaving my gear unsupervised with other hikers around that I know.



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FreeGoldRush
01-06-2019, 23:41
What about when going into town? Do you usually leave your pack outside of a business or take it in? Any issues when leaving it outside?

Slo-go'en
01-06-2019, 23:45
I suspect the occasional non-intown pack theft is done by bears.

In a crowded shelter or hostel, gear can go missing because someone picked it up thinking it was theirs. So much gear looks alike and if packing up in the dark, it's easy to do. If the group is moving more or less at the same speed, this can often be resolved at the next shelter.

Forgetting to pack something is also easy to do. If something goes missing you probably left it at the last camp. Hostels are a good place to loose odds and ends as they roll under the bunk or get forgotten in some dark corner.

That said, one should keep valuables on one's person and keep any small valuable items out of plain sight. No sense tempting someone.

Slo-go'en
01-06-2019, 23:58
What about when going into town? Do you usually leave your pack outside of a business or take it in? Any issues when leaving it outside?

It depends. Sometimes you can bring your pack in a store with you, sometimes not. Large grocery stores I put my pack in the shopping cart. Small convenience stores with narrow isles I leave it outside by the door. Fast food places I'll bring it in and put it in the booth with me or leave it inside near the door. fancier restaurants will often have a place to put the pack, just ask.

But really, who wants your dirty clothes and smelly pack anyway? It's contents might be worth $1000, but it's not stuff which can be easily and quickly turned into any amount of cash.

shelb
01-06-2019, 23:59
The hiking community is a much safer - less invasive community than the real world.

MuddyWaters
01-07-2019, 00:10
What about when going into town? Do you usually leave your pack outside of a business or take it in? Any issues when leaving it outside?

Some places you can take it in
Some places you cant
Some you shouldnt, youd knock things over.

Some set aside a place inside door for packs to be put

Some restaurants make you leave it out front, for no good reason at all.
Some dont.

Generally no problem.

Could it walk off? Sure.
Not common.

Just keep eye on it. Sit where can see it if make feel better.
Generally, just do what others are doing.
And a small pack.....is less trouble.
I can wear my pack in businesses without objection most of time.

SWODaddy
01-07-2019, 00:54
There's plenty of dirtbags out there, 99% of which you'll avoid if you stay away from shelters.

Dogwood
01-07-2019, 01:34
Across N. America, not just on the AT, I find backpackers stealing gear from other backpackers to be rare, very rare in the back country. In more congregated areas of higher use like backcountry FS managed CG's the theft rate I think is higher. Where I do see theft among users having access to the backcountry is among hunters, fishermen, off road enthusiasts, skiers, snowshoers, snowmobilers, and hikers. Greater powered vehicle access to anywhere in the backcountry invites greater risk of theft. I probably know of or suspect more theft and vandalism occurrences to hunters maybe at the hands of other hunters and ATVer types than anything else i.e.; deer stands, decoys, blinds, breaking into cabins, hunting camps(taking gear and food), especially that have ATV access, and especially that have expensive powered equipment like generators, snowmobiles, power tools, etc. I've met hunters on the CO Tr, just off the BMT, and CDT that said they had stuff stolen from their hunting camps. It happens at backcountry ski chalets as well. Backcountry private seasonal CG's are at risk. I've seen that occur just off the AT in PA and NJ at CG's I was doing volunteering reconstruction cabin work. Backcountry sites near water access canoes, kayaks, and paddling gear are stolen. That's an issue in AK, WI, MT,.. I've lived on lakes and had two boats stolen. Most folks know this so secure these items or don't leave new most expensive items like these behind. Temporarily vacated back country cabins, seasonal hunting camps, fire towers, ranger stations, vehicles, RV's, public utility sites, etc are more prone to theft and vandalism. It's assumed you are aware of this since you're LE. I've seen it occur to back country ranching properties at wells, windmills, barns with stored equipment, along fence lines, etc. I see theft in legal backcountry growing operations(yes legal cannabis grows included) and agricultural sites.

PM sent.

Christoph
01-07-2019, 01:41
I'm sure it's happened. On the AT during my thru, I never once felt like I should carry my pack inside to shop (or whatever). I did take me wallet and cell with me just in case, but never had an incident on the AT. I think most towns (at least along the AT) are pretty hiker friendly. Other hikers never messed with my gear and we actually looked out for one another on a few occasions (just in case). But it all worked out.

soilman
01-07-2019, 08:12
I read where a woman and her dog's gear was stolen last year near Damascus. Someone lost a pack near Dismal Creek during my thru hike. He thought it was stolen but I think a bear got it. I had seen a bear in the area the day before.

chknfngrs
01-07-2019, 08:31
in my years of backpacking I have not seen or heard of backcountry theft of gear, food, etc that wasn’t wildlife related. Hiker on hiker crime rate seems low. I also have never thru hiked, for the record.

Crossup
01-07-2019, 10:01
My favorite hiking hat went MIA while at the ATC in Harpers after getting my picture taken. Never did figure out if it left the building or was just hiding. At least it was in the pictures so it lives on.

Puddlefish
01-07-2019, 10:41
I don't want to mention the place by name, but there's a fairly popular blue blaze with a view, that's up a rather steep incline. I and a lot of other people just left our packs at the trail junction, and climbed on up and down with a high degree of confidence that no one would touch our gear. In hindsight, it was a bit stupid because we had food in our packs and it was in bear country.

You get a feel for the group of people around you, and in my case, there was zero concern with gear theft at any point in the backcountry. In fairness to the wild animals however, don't leave your food bag lying around unattended on the ground. Leaving a food bag on the ground, in the daytime with a group of hikers, no concern.

Slo-go'en
01-07-2019, 10:47
My favorite hiking hat went MIA while at the ATC in Harpers after getting my picture taken. Never did figure out if it left the building or was just hiding. At least it was in the pictures so it lives on.

I lost a nice hat at a shelter in VA - my fault, forgot to pack it. A few days later I saw someone walk by wearing it. I was going to say "hey that's my hat!", but let it go by. I've picked up plenty of lost or forgotten pieces of gear (mostly clothing) over the years, so I figured that was my pay it forward hat.

Once I found a nice, brand new pile jacket laying in the middle of the trail, just a few miles north of Springer. I scooped it up and threw it over the top of my pack, thinking I could use a new pile jacket. But about 10 minutes later I caught up to the guy who lost it, just as he realized it was no longer hanging off the back of his pack. So I gave it back. He was very grateful.

I've lost bandanas, water bags, knives, hats and assorted odds and ends along the trail, but have never had anything stolen.

TNhiker
01-07-2019, 10:59
I suspect the occasional non-intown pack theft is done by bears.




i realize you were making a joke but this happens in the smokies...

Russell Field and Cosby Knob shelters have "resident" bears that will take off with a pack....

they have learned to associate a pack with food so when a pack is left unattended, they will grab it...


Patman on this board has a story about it happening to him....

ldsailor
01-07-2019, 11:03
I've never heard of a theft in three years of doing LASH's on the AT. As a matter of fact, I forgot my camp shoes at a campsite once and another hiker carried them 20 miles to return them to me. Who would have thought?

Aside from that, what hiker wants to carry more weight? They'd be crazy to steal something to add to their own pack.

Sara
01-07-2019, 12:48
Someone stole stuff from food bags hanging on a line at an AT shelter in the middle of the night. He (or she) took 1-2 items of food out of a couple food bags.

My food was okay, but that is the only time I've experience a problem.

fastfoxengineering
01-07-2019, 13:12
I've never heard of a theft in three years of doing LASH's on the AT. As a matter of fact, I forgot my camp shoes at a campsite once and another hiker carried them 20 miles to return them to me. Who would have thought?

Aside from that, what hiker wants to carry more weight? They'd be crazy to steal something to add to their own pack.Probably the most commonly stole item is food.

I've heard of it a few times before.

Also, Ive seen people return lost or forgotten items as well. That is far more common.

I've seen people blacklisted from hostels for being known theives.



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illabelle
01-07-2019, 13:57
i realize you were making a joke but this happens in the smokies...
Russell Field and Cosby Knob shelters have "resident" bears that will take off with a pack....
they have learned to associate a pack with food so when a pack is left unattended, they will grab it...
Patman on this board has a story about it happening to him....
We witnessed people dropping their packs at the side trail to Mt Cammerer - not so very far from Cosby. Nobody stayed behind to keep an eye on them. Very foolish. And that side trail is pretty flat, only 0.6 miles.

HooKooDooKu
01-07-2019, 14:25
We witnessed people dropping their packs at the side trail to Mt Cammerer - not so very far from Cosby. Nobody stayed behind to keep an eye on them. Very foolish. And that side trail is pretty flat, only 0.6 miles.
Not only foolish, but also illegal (at least in National Parks such as GSMNP). When ever food is not being transported, prepared, or consumed, Nation Park Service rules requires food to be properly stored (which generally means either hung 10' off the ground and 4' from things like tree trunks, or by what ever local rules stipulate, such as bear canisters for places like Yosemite NP).

Zalman
01-07-2019, 14:45
Not only foolish, but also illegal (at least in National Parks such as GSMNP). When ever food is not being transported, prepared, or consumed, Nation Park Service rules requires food to be properly stored (which generally means either hung 10' off the ground and 4' from things like tree trunks, or by what ever local rules stipulate, such as bear canisters for places like Yosemite NP).

Well, if they're using bear canisters then any food inside their packs is also probably in the bear canister. It may be dumb to keep the canister inside your pack, but I don't think it's illegal, is it?

Zalman
01-07-2019, 14:48
What about when going into town? Do you usually leave your pack outside of a business or take it in? Any issues when leaving it outside?

I've never had anything stolen in the backcountry, though I rarely leave my gear anywhere unattended, and never on or near a trail of any kind. However, I have had my entire pack stolen in town, after stashing it to go into a restaurant. My practice now, and advice, is to never let your pack out of site in or near town.

HooKooDooKu
01-07-2019, 15:23
Well, if they're using bear canisters then any food inside their packs is also probably in the bear canister. It may be dumb to keep the canister inside your pack, but I don't think it's illegal, is it?
From what little research I've done, it doesn't appear that it is illegal to leave a bear canister inside an unattended pack.

But illabelle was talking about a trail in Great Smoky Mountains National Park. Bear Canisters are not required in GSMNP because camping is only allowed at designated back-country campsites, and every campsite has Bear Cables to hang your food. So there would be no expectation of the unattended packs illabelle saw to contain bear canisters.

There is a slight chance that the packs were legally left behind... if they hikers removed their food/garbage bag and carried that with them (or did a proper food bag hang). But if the hikers were too lazy to carry their packs on a level 0.6 mile dead-end trail, they were likely too lazy to seperate their food from their pack.

TNhiker
01-07-2019, 15:26
But if the hikers were too lazy to carry their packs on a level 0.6 mile dead-end trail, they were likely too lazy to seperate their food from their pack.




yup......


and in my many years of hiking/backpacking in the Park------i can count on one finger the amount of hikers that i have seen using a bear canister.........

the only reason this guy was using is, was he wanted practice with it for future hikes and his partner was carrying the tent that they were using (ie...splitting weight)...

HooKooDooKu
01-07-2019, 17:38
yup......


and in my many years of hiking/backpacking in the Park------i can count on one finger the amount of hikers that i have seen using a bear canister.........

the only reason this guy was using is, was he wanted practice with it for future hikes and his partner was carrying the tent that they were using (ie...splitting weight)...
I used a bear canister in GSMNP... ONCE. I was testing out my gear/pack setup for a JMT Thru where I would have to use a bear canister.
Obviously more weight, but I must say I like the convenience of the bear canister, keeps rodents out as well, and you don't have to jockey for spots on the bear cables.

However, I find it interesting that based on all the rules and regulations to apply the GSMNP, I believe it's illegal to use (only) a bear canister for food storage. I doubt a park ranger would give a back packer a ticket for using a bear canister, but the only food storage methods I've found listed as legal for GSMNP is storage in a vehicle, storage in a bear locker (some of the front country campgrounds have these for motorcyclists), hanging from the supplied bear cables (or the one bear pole at CS47), or a bear bag hang (10' off the ground and 4' away from tree trunks).

Consider this discussion a 'case-in-point' that what ever national park you may be going to, you have to find out what are the local rules for proper food storage. For example, while in Yosemite NP, it is illegal to store food in your car over night. Bears are plenty strong enough to break into a car, and the YNP bears have learned that. Fortunately, GSMNP bears have NOT learned they are strong enough to break into cars, and so for now, placing food in your car is considered safe food storage in GSMNP.

TNhiker
01-07-2019, 17:45
Fortunately, GSMNP bears have NOT learned they are strong enough to break into cars, and so for now, placing food in your car is considered safe food storage in GSMNP.



according to some of the videos sent to our station-----this is not true anymore.....

granted, most of the damage has been in town (gatlinburg) but bears have been getting into cars....

johnacraft
01-07-2019, 17:53
Fortunately, GSMNP bears have NOT learned they are strong enough to break into cars . . .

Tell that to this bear (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBnGe9HDGBI) ;)

HooKooDooKu
01-07-2019, 21:55
Tell that to this bear (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBnGe9HDGBI) ;)
I've seen that video, and if you pay attention, the owners left the windows cracked open and the bear pretty much accidentally broke into the car.

Now I don't know about the video's TNhiker is talking about, but bears breaking into completely closed up cars either isn't happening or is such a rarity that it's generally not a problem and GSMNP regulations still considers food in cars to be proper food storage.

By contrast, bears in Yosemite NP have learned to do things like get their claws around the door frame and simply use their strength to open the car like a sarden can... and they've taught their cubs this trick. Current regulations for Yosemite NP REQUIRES all overnight food storage to either be the bear boxes provided at every front country campsite, or bear canister for those in the back country.

And for those that don't realize it, YNP and GSMNP are both inhabited by black bears. It's not a bigger, stronger species of bear in YNP, it's simply that the bears there know how to break into cars, GSMNP bears have not LEARNED to break into cars (doesn't mean they don't occasionally stumble across the solution every once in a while, but they have not learned how to break into any car they want to, even though they have the dexterity and strength to do so).

blw2
01-07-2019, 22:21
I've seen on youtube and read about times such as finding an item on the trail and being faced with the decision....
should I pick it up and take it to the next shelter and hope that the owner is there?...
or did they go the other way?.....
or was this thing abandoned?....
or was this stuff left trailside on purpose and the owner will be back for it?....
or is this a cache for a specific person or is it trail magic left for anyone?

I've got a feeling that some of these potentials...such as a pack left trailside while the owner heads into the woods to do their business.... can be totally misread by weekenders or folks not tuned into the whole idea....instead thinking that somebody abandoned this nice stuff!

fastfoxengineering
01-07-2019, 22:56
I've seen on youtube and read about times such as finding an item on the trail and being faced with the decision....
should I pick it up and take it to the next shelter and hope that the owner is there?...
or did they go the other way?.....
or was this thing abandoned?....
or was this stuff left trailside on purpose and the owner will be back for it?....
or is this a cache for a specific person or is it trail magic left for anyone?

I've got a feeling that some of these potentials...such as a pack left trailside while the owner heads into the woods to do their business.... can be totally misread by weekenders or folks not tuned into the whole idea....instead thinking that somebody abandoned this nice stuff!There was a target shopping bag full of mountain house meals, cliff bars, and energy chews all organized into 1 gallon ziplocks hanging in a shelter in the 100 mile wilderness.

Trail magic? ... there wasnt a note or anything. No note made it seem weird.

It looked like someones resupply. But it also looked like trail magic. Did someone leave it behind by accident? Keep it mind this was at a random shelter kind of out there in the 100 mile. None of us knew how accessible it was for a day hiker. Who knows? Noone touched it.

How hard is to leave a note?

My friend left her pack to go check out a vista. A bear tried to walk off with it. Ripped the brain on her osprey and tore her foam pad up.

Another reason to pack light. You dont mind carrying a pack everywhere. Unless someone is going to baby sit the packs.. its bad ju ju to leave them unattended. Some would say its irresponsible.

If a bear comes and eats your pack because you left it at the bottom of the trail. Im gonna laugh at you rather than feel bad. Its funny and you had it coming. If someone steals your stuff. Id feel bad, but you had it coming.

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RockDoc
01-08-2019, 00:20
It's rare, but the trail is such a mix of haves (often millionaires) and have nots (opportunists), that you can't take any chances.

Dogwood
01-08-2019, 00:55
Not only foolish, but also illegal (at least in National Parks such as GSMNP). When ever food is not being transported, prepared, or consumed, Nation Park Service rules requires food to be properly stored (which generally means either hung 10' off the ground and 4' from things like tree trunks, or by what ever local rules stipulate, such as bear canisters for places like Yosemite NP).
Which is why when I've left my pack there I took out all the smellables and food and took them with me in a stuff sack and hung my pack about 8'-10' high. That's a good pt HKDK. I've seen at least one bear in the area which I strongly suspect has snatched a pack by teh way it was behaving, conditioned to unattended packs at the junction.

BuckeyeBill
01-08-2019, 02:24
If you really don't want stuff stolen, you may want to try a Pacsafe Security Web (https://www.rei.com/product/709207/pacsafe-55-security-web-small), that is if you don't mind carrying the extra weight. Just put a TSA Lock on it so the Feds can go through your pack without cutting things up. They come in small, medium and Large.

Leo L.
01-08-2019, 06:10
For the cases where one finds stuff that could be anything between abandoned, thrashed or lost, we have the habit that the finder hangs it on a tree or shrub at a spot where it's clearly visible for everybody, especially the possible owner.

Bubblehead
01-08-2019, 09:48
Back in 2017, left my sitting pad on the bench outside the ATC in Harpers Ferry...realized it a couple of hours later and went back. It was gone...I also checked inside to see if someone had brought in there...NADA...

KnightErrant
01-08-2019, 11:07
I left my stuff sack containing my toiletries sitting on a picnic table at a hostel in TN. I was taking a relaxing lazy nearo and was in the process of moving my re-packing process from the front of the building to the back to make space on the front porch, which took a few armloads because everything was spread out drying in the sun. So I didn't notice at first that someone had taken the bag, dumped out all the contents into the hiker box, and stolen the stuff sack. My hairbrush, toothpaste, and toothbrush case were also gone before I realized what had happened, but I don't know if the thief took those too or if people understandably picked them out of the hiker box in the 10-20 minutes before I noticed. All my toiletries, including my glasses, two months' worth of contact lenses, prescription medication, and more had been unceremoniously abandoned for other hikers, all because some weirdo wanted my Walmart-brand stuff sack.

Once I had fished all my stuff out of the hiker box, I told the hostel staff what had happened and they were extremely nice about it, giving me a new stuff sack for free. They believed they knew who had done it-- there were a couple guys there who were obviously not thru-hiking (jeans, non-hiking footware, etc) and were strung out on something and being erratic and belligerent -- but I said I had no interest in confronting them about like $8 worth of stolen gear. So the staff just kept a close eye on them the rest of the time they were there.

I never had any other issues, and that instance was just weird, not costly. I was more disturbed by the thief's willingness to dump my obviously essential belongings than by the missing items. I think the guy was just tripping, because if the action had actually been motivated by greed or financial need, he would have taken the valuable contents (glasses, contacts, meds), but instead he seemed to just want the cheap red stuff sack on a drunken whim. I'd always been careful with my valuables (wallet, phone, etc) but I was definitely more careful with all my belongings after that, but the bigger reminder was to avoid people who were abusing alcohol and drugs, for the safety of both my property and my person.

Tipi Walter
01-08-2019, 11:36
When I dump my 90 lb pack on the ground and do something else like a water run---no one is crazy enough to try and pick it up and run away.

44442

HooKooDooKu
01-08-2019, 11:40
When I dump my 90 lb pack on the ground and do something else like a water run---no one is crazy enough to try and pick it up and run away.

44442
The old "fat people are harder to kidnap" theory.

fastfoxengineering
01-08-2019, 11:41
When I dump my 90 lb pack on the ground and do something else like a water run---no one is crazy enough to try and pick it up and run away.

44442Yupp. Wouldnt touch it if you payed me.

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Gambit McCrae
01-08-2019, 11:44
The only thing I have heard of concerning Pack theft was several years ago when that kid claimed he left his pack at the Roan High Knob AT intersection to go to the summit and when he returned, no pack.

The other instance I have whitnessed personally was up in Virginia I met TatuJo who was just south of Pearisburg. He, an old man, and a young kid stayed at a shelter the night before. You kid had takin old mans trekking poles and tatujo was runnin him down to retrieve them and give a good thump to his knoggin!

Other than these instances I have only heard rumors of food bags being takin from cables or bear boxes.. Another and main reason why I sleep with my food.

RangerZ
01-08-2019, 12:36
I read where a woman and her dog's gear was stolen last year near Damascus. Someone lost a pack near Dismal Creek during my thru hike. He thought it was stolen but I think a bear got it. I had seen a bear in the area the day before.

If it was this one - it was at the Overmountain Shelter, the Husky hurt its paw and she took it to a vet. She first carried the pack down to the road and then came back to carry the dog down. By the time that she got to the road with the dog, the pack was gone. I don't know if she had hid the pack in the woods or just left it by the road. People chipped in some cash and I heard that she got some gear from a previous hiker.

I cannot leave my pack unattended, too much accountability drilled into me in the Army. This can lead to carrying it on the long 0.3 mile downhill (and uphill) blue blaze to the water source at the Raven Rock Shelter in MD. Of course, no one else was on the trail or at the shelter that day.

Tipi Walter
01-08-2019, 13:07
My backpacking buddy Patman has an interesting story when he left his pack on a trail in the Smokies and went on a water run and when he was gone a bear took his pack and ripped it open. See---

https://www.trailspace.com/forums/trip-reports/topics/129405.html

44443

martinb
01-08-2019, 16:17
Have not had anything purloined in the backcountry. I do not stay in or near shelters. There have been a couple of times, when camped in a popular backcountry area, I ran into sketchy types and did not leave the tent much. It would be easy for some one to take my high dollar, lightweight down bag that I'm not willing to part with.

TNhiker
01-08-2019, 17:11
If it was this one - it was at the Overmountain Shelter, the Husky hurt its paw and she took it to a vet. She first carried the pack down to the road and then came back to carry the dog down. By the time that she got to the road with the dog, the pack was gone.



and depending upon what road she came out on, that area is not really safe to begin with...

plenty of car break ins have happened at carvers gap..........

MuddyWaters
01-08-2019, 18:59
A 17yr old kid posted here several yrs ago his pack was taken at a shelter.

And of course, Joel Polsom was murdered for his gear...

Dogwood
01-08-2019, 19:05
When I dump my 90 lb pack on the ground and do something else like a water run---no one is crazy enough to try and pick it up and run away.

44442


Yupp. Wouldnt touch it if you payed me.

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Dont kid yourself. 30 lbs of avocados are worth a pretty penny on the avocado black market. :D

RockDoc
01-08-2019, 19:18
As with most cases of theft, the perp has little or nothing to lose by doing it. Regrettably, there are people like that hiking the AT. And they blend in well.

Dogwood
01-08-2019, 19:28
I wouldn't be astonished if pack theft increases as more and more rely on pricier electronics in the backcountry. Smartphones are one of the most targeted items. And the way people tend to use them out in the open so much and how they're often stored when not used is an invitation. I don't even make it a habit to divulge the value of gear...anymore Only had one pack stolen but that was at a Walmart resupply in Reno. I may have opened up myself to being targeted because I discussed this a little too freely. Mistake. :rolleyes:

Slo-go'en
01-08-2019, 20:37
I wouldn't be astonished if pack theft increases as more and more rely on pricier electronics in the backcountry. Smartphones are one of the most targeted items. And the way people tend to use them out in the open so much and how they're often stored when not used is an invitation. I don't even make it a habit to divulge the value of gear...anymore Only had one pack stolen but that was at a Walmart resupply in Reno. I may have opened up myself to being targeted because I discussed this a little too freely. Mistake. :rolleyes:


Having spent as much time as I have hanging around bus terminals, I'm amazed that cell phones left unattended while charging are respected. For sure, these aren't the latest iPhones, but still. Even among the downtrodden, they don't mess with other peoples phones. If anyone wants to steal my $30 Tackfone, they can have it.

Mentioning you have $1500 worth of gear in you backpack probably isn't an good idea. Most likely the average, random person would not think it's worth anything near that much. Unless they know camping gear and want it for themselves. What's your gear worth at a pawn shop? Not much.

Elaikases
01-08-2019, 23:38
It's happened.

But it's very far from common or normal.

It shoudnt be an issue anyways because as a hiker you are responsible for keeping your pack and equipment in check.

With that said, i have zero problems leaving my gear unsupervised with other hikers around that I know.



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Exactly. Anything they steal they have to carry out themselves.

Dogwood
01-09-2019, 00:12
Having spent as much time as I have hanging around bus terminals, I'm amazed that cell phones left unattended while charging are respected. For sure, these aren't the latest iPhones, but still. Even among the downtrodden, they don't mess with other peoples phones. If anyone wants to steal my $30 Tackfone, they can have it.

Mentioning you have $1500 worth of gear in you backpack probably isn't an good idea. Most likely the average, random person would not think it's worth anything near that much. Unless they know camping gear and want it for themselves. What's your gear worth at a pawn shop? Not much.

There's often some shady stuff happening and characters around Greyhound stations. It's a target for thieves which is why LE and security is often stationed there. As a frugal not always in a hurry traveler I sometimes tolerate the Dog for shorter trips to backpacking destinations. On two different occasions at transfers in large urban impoverished areas phones came up missing at charging stations.

If some one is stealing gear from a backpacker especially if the backpacker is a known thru hiker or there's one path I think the thief is not another thru hiker or hiker fraud doing the same hike. That's why I pay added attention to locals or dirtbags trying to pass themselves off as hikers or hikers soon to get off the trail. If aware you start learning who doesn't fit the picture, who is likely to have that "take the money and run" thing about them. I started becoming even more aware when I had those two boats, one canoe and one jon boat, paddling gear out of a yak, and that pack stolen. Having that pack stolen I was as mad at myself as much as the thief. That hole in your gut when you get over the denial and accept that your stuff is gone is one I wish not repeat.

HooKooDooKu
01-09-2019, 00:28
Mentioning you have $1500 worth of gear in you backpack probably isn't an good idea.
I don't disagree... but now-a-days, seems like just about every thru hiker or serious hiker that's not a beginner likely has $1,500 (full retail replacement cost) worth of gear on them for a hike.

For fun, here's a rough estimate of the replacement cost of things I had with me during a JMT thru (excludes electronics such as cell phone, GPS, and camera).

Here's a rough rundown of what I during a JMT thru:
Tent $500
Bear Canister $350
Sleeping Bag $300
Sleeping Pad $175
Pack $200
Stove/Cook set $125
Puffy Jacket $300
Wool Layer $200
Boots $250
Rain Jacket $100
Rain Pants $50
Misc Clothing $150
Water system $50
Misc Gear $100
Hiking Poles $100
That's almost $3,000 worth of gear (full retail replacement cost and EXCLUDES all electronics). I find that surprising... but I also know I likely spent only $1,700 over many years of buying that stuff often at discounts.

Slo-go'en
01-09-2019, 01:18
Of course you need to be aware of your suroundings and be attentive. But no need to be overly parionod about it. Judge the risks at the time and act accordingly.

4eyedbuzzard
01-09-2019, 07:09
There's a law enforcement reality TV series opportunity here - Bait Pack.
Unattended pack...with a bonus inside for the thief:

A layer of shrimp ramen on top and below that the real prize

1) used, unwashed hiker socks and underwear
2) privy "compost"
3) an angry opossum
4) a bald faced hornets nest

... yeah, slow morning

chknfngrs
01-09-2019, 08:07
What bear can did you use that was $350?


I don't disagree... but now-a-days, seems like just about every thru hiker or serious hiker that's not a beginner likely has $1,500 (full retail replacement cost) worth of gear on them for a hike.

For fun, here's a rough estimate of the replacement cost of things I had with me during a JMT thru (excludes electronics such as cell phone, GPS, and camera).

Here's a rough rundown of what I during a JMT thru:
Tent $500
Bear Canister $350
Sleeping Bag $300
Sleeping Pad $175
Pack $200
Stove/Cook set $125
Puffy Jacket $300
Wool Layer $200
Boots $250
Rain Jacket $100
Rain Pants $50
Misc Clothing $150
Water system $50
Misc Gear $100
Hiking Poles $100
That's almost $3,000 worth of gear (full retail replacement cost and EXCLUDES all electronics). I find that surprising... but I also know I likely spent only $1,700 over many years of buying that stuff often at discounts.

chknfngrs
01-09-2019, 08:08
Oh wait I think I misunderstood your post


What bear can did you use that was $350?

MuddyWaters
01-09-2019, 08:57
Recently put in a Ring doorbell.

Interesting thing is you can share video with others near you

Lets just say, that opportunistic package theft is much more prevalent than would have imagined......in good areas even. You simply dont hear about most.

Same likely applies to trail thefts.

Zalman
01-09-2019, 09:33
What bear can did you use that was $350?

The Wild Ideas Bearikade Expedition is the only one I know of that comes in at that price.

Zalman
01-09-2019, 09:36
Recently put in a Ring doorbell.

Interesting thing is you can share video with others near you

Lets just say, that opportunistic package theft is much more prevalent than would have imagined......in good areas even. You simply dont hear about most.

Same likely applies to trail thefts.

I wonder what the lightest, most unobtrusive GPS tracking devices are these days. Throw one at the bottom of your sleeping bag, for example.

perrymk
01-09-2019, 10:02
I wonder what the lightest, most unobtrusive GPS tracking devices are these days. Throw one at the bottom of your sleeping bag, for example.

There are a number of options intended for luggage.

I purchased something a few years ago that is similar to a key finder. I push a button and the tag chirps. I think it has a range of 100 feet or something. I thought it would be useful if my bear canister were rolled into tall grass or behind a bush, but I suppose it could be used to find one's gear that had been stashed in another persons backpack as well.

lonehiker
01-09-2019, 15:00
I went into the Doyle, leaving my pack outside, and the first thing that the owner had me do was to bring my pack inside. I was eating in a bar/restaurant in Damascus and a couple of hikers came inside without their packs. A customer, Lonewolf(?), immediately asked them where their packs were and had them bring them inside citing a recent pack theft (this was 08). Listen to the locals, always when hitching/in town have valuables on you, and always try to have a visual on your gear. These rules apply to when around non-hikers. When on trail I am a bit more lax but still try to keep wallet/phone on my person if I will be away from pack/camp for any length of time. I prefer to err on the side of caution. But, I have never had anything stolen while on the trail or in town.

HooKooDooKu
01-09-2019, 15:13
What bear can did you use that was $350?
The Wild Ideas Bearikade Expedition is the only one I know of that comes in at that price.
Yeah, I purchased the Bearikade Expedition because I needed something I could carry enough food for 10 days to make it from MTR to Mt. Whitney.
The Expedition size has 900 cubic inches of volume while things like the BearVault BV500 is only 700 cubic inches. You can rent these canisters, but I wanted one "in hand" to ensure I would be able to pack it in my pack when fully loaded with almost 20lbs of food (glad I did as my REI Flash pack wasn't going to handle it... purchased the Osprey Volt 75). After the trip, I managed to resell the canister such that the difference between my purchase/sell price was pretty much equivalent to the rental rate for a similar trip.

stephanD
01-09-2019, 16:02
I went into the Doyle, leaving my pack outside, and the first thing that the owner had me do was to bring my pack inside. I was eating in a bar/restaurant in Damascus and a couple of hikers came inside without their packs. A customer, Lonewolf(?), immediately asked them where their packs were and had them bring them inside citing a recent pack theft (this was 08). Listen to the locals, always when hitching/in town have valuables on you, and always try to have a visual on your gear. These rules apply to when around non-hikers. When on trail I am a bit more lax but still try to keep wallet/phone on my person if I will be away from pack/camp for any length of time. I prefer to err on the side of caution. But, I have never had anything stolen while on the trail or in town.

"Trust, but verify".

Dogwood
01-09-2019, 16:33
There's a law enforcement reality TV series opportunity here - Bait Pack.
Unattended pack...with a bonus inside for the thief:

A layer of shrimp ramen on top and below that the real prize

1) used, unwashed hiker socks and underwear
2) privy "compost"
3) an angry opossum
4) a bald faced hornets nest

... yeah, slow morning
Ha ha ha Bait Pack.

Two nephews traveled around Europe one summer. They were warned the pickpockets were so good they could steal your watch from your wrist and jewelry from around your neck or while on your finger. A handbag or camera bag over the shoulder they could get that. My one nephew stuffed a small bag full of garbage as bait. Sure enough they stole it from his hand while carrying it.

Ever see Apollo on Brain Games? He'll alert you beforehand he's going to rob you. Then he'll get away through diversion robbing you.

Kookork
01-10-2019, 15:26
The hiking community is a much safer - less invasive community than the real world.
It seems we as the hiking community sometimes categorize our community as not "Real" world which in some cases is true.

kestral
01-11-2019, 15:44
Around 2010 a fellow hiker had his montbell thermawarp puffy stolen while he was packing up. He seemed a bit shocked by the theft. This was at hawk mountain shelter at the height of the bubble. There was one kinda suspicious guy who left without looking in anyone’s eyes in a hurry, saying he had to get his miles in. everyone else emptied their pack to make sure we didn’t accidentally scoop up someone else’s stuff bag. Sad reality.

bushwhacker88
01-12-2019, 07:29
Across N. America, not just on the AT, I find backpackers stealing gear from other backpackers to be rare, very rare in the back country. In more congregated areas of higher use like backcountry FS managed CG's the theft rate I think is higher. Where I do see theft among users having access to the backcountry is among hunters, fishermen, off road enthusiasts, skiers, snowshoers, snowmobilers, and hikers. Greater powered vehicle access to anywhere in the backcountry invites greater risk of theft. I probably know of or suspect more theft and vandalism occurrences to hunters maybe at the hands of other hunters and ATVer types than anything else i.e.; deer stands, decoys, blinds, breaking into cabins, hunting camps(taking gear and food), especially that have ATV access, and especially that have expensive powered equipment like generators, snowmobiles, power tools, etc. I've met hunters on the CO Tr, just off the BMT, and CDT that said they had stuff stolen from their hunting camps. It happens at backcountry ski chalets as well. Backcountry private seasonal CG's are at risk. I've seen that occur just off the AT in PA and NJ at CG's I was doing volunteering reconstruction cabin work. Backcountry sites near water access canoes, kayaks, and paddling gear are stolen. That's an issue in AK, WI, MT,.. I've lived on lakes and had two boats stolen. Most folks know this so secure these items or don't leave new most expensive items like these behind. Temporarily vacated back country cabins, seasonal hunting camps, fire towers, ranger stations, vehicles, RV's, public utility sites, etc are more prone to theft and vandalism. It's assumed you are aware of this since you're LE. I've seen it occur to back country ranching properties at wells, windmills, barns with stored equipment, along fence lines, etc. I see theft in legal backcountry growing operations(yes legal cannabis grows included) and agricultural sites.

PM sent.

Yeah I'm pretty sure you dont hunt. While hunters are stolen FROM quite frequently, the thieves are almost never other hunters. They're typically lowlives, addicts, or basically folks who dont want to work for a living. Hunters are easy targets because they tend to leave expensive things unattended for long periods of time. Tree stands, game cameras, all the paraphernelia that goes with a hunting camp. While the scum that prey on hunters might occasionally hunt themselves, it will often be illegally. Hunting from the road, at night, before the season opens or closes, etc. The proceeds from the theft generally are used to buy drugs. I've never known a true hunter to steal from another hunter, and I've hunted all my life. I dont use treestands, game cameras, or 4-wheelers nor do I belong to a hunting club, but I know plenty of people who do, and every time they've been stolen from its been non-hunters who did it.

MuddyWaters
01-12-2019, 10:20
Yeah I'm pretty sure you dont hunt. While hunters are stolen FROM quite frequently, the thieves are almost never other hunters. They're typically lowlives, addicts, or basically folks who dont want to work for a living. Hunters are easy targets because they tend to leave expensive things unattended for long periods of time. Tree stands, game cameras, all the paraphernelia that goes with a hunting camp. While the scum that prey on hunters might occasionally hunt themselves, it will often be illegally. Hunting from the road, at night, before the season opens or closes, etc. The proceeds from the theft generally are used to buy drugs. I've never known a true hunter to steal from another hunter, and I've hunted all my life. I dont use treestands, game cameras, or 4-wheelers nor do I belong to a hunting club, but I know plenty of people who do, and every time they've been stolen from its been non-hunters who did it.
We caught logging company stealing 6 of our lader stands once on our hunting lease once. One-piece welded 20' high , double seat, shooting rail. Each cost $2000 a decade ago. a couple of people had generators walk off as well from their camps.

Too many people with locks on gate. Landowner, lease holders, timber management company, and logging company when working.

We used to lease timberland owned by a very famous singer. Our president convinced her to lease to us primarily so someone would be on the property routinely keeping eye on it. Lots of bad things go on without someone around. Squatters, stills, meth labs, unscrupulous loggers stealing timber , etc . 10' over the property line is money in Someones pocket. And you lucky if its only 10', not 20.

Dogwood
01-12-2019, 17:22
I did hunt for many yrs. Since when can't hunters be drug addicts, scum, or engage in low life behavior? You're simply saying a hunter that doesn't steal is a non stealing hunter. Yeah, and a Hershey's bar is a Hershey's bar. Self validating. Hunters certainly aren't all honest and certainly can steal from and vandalize other hunter's property. There's no supposed absolute immunity from bad behavior because someone hunts just as there is no absolute immunity from bad behavior among those that hike, politicians, teachers, priests, family members, LE, judges,....

Dogwood
01-12-2019, 17:36
I still fish. I had one Scanoe, as square steered canoe, stolen by another fisherman, no known drug problems. A jon boat stolen by another fisherman that did have drug and low life issues that had criminal history. These acts of thefts were confirmed. I had a large freshwater tackle box stolen from the back of my PU at a remote stream with the only others around other fisherman. I strongly suspect it was another fisherman.

I had remote deer stands and one duck blind vandalized or destroyed by I strongly suspect other hunters who wanted the hunting area to themselves. I met two different long time hunters on two different occasions who displayed outright hostility that someone else had stands or a duck blind in the area that they thought belonged only to them. This occurred on land open to the public. One hunter was a heavy drinker who was witnessed several times leaving the forest intoxicated. Alcohol is a drug too and alcohol use among hunters is not that rare.

4eyedbuzzard
01-12-2019, 17:59
I'm sure there are instances of hikers stealing from other hikers - or any other target of opportunity a dishonest hiker might come across. Just as there are instances of hunters stealing from other hunters, etc. Typically there are people who respect other peoples property and laws in general, and those who do not. As to whether or not hunters are above breaking the law, well maybe they're a bit more law abiding than fishermen, but there seems to be plenty of disregard for the law to go around. Just in Maine alone, here's a sample: "In the 8-year period 2007 – 2015, Maine game wardens gave more citations to anglers than to hunters. Anglers received a total of 4,192 citations while hunters received 2,869. https://georgesoutdoornews.bangordailynews.com/2018/01/30/hunting/anglers-break-more-laws-than-hunters/

gpburdelljr
01-12-2019, 19:20
I'm sure there are instances of hikers stealing from other hikers - or any other target of opportunity a dishonest hiker might come across. Just as there are instances of hunters stealing from other hunters, etc. Typically there are people who respect other peoples property and laws in general, and those who do not. As to whether or not hunters are above breaking the law, well maybe they're a bit more law abiding than fishermen, but there seems to be plenty of disregard for the law to go around. Just in Maine alone, here's a sample: "In the 8-year period 2007 – 2015, Maine game wardens gave more citations to anglers than to hunters. Anglers received a total of 4,192 citations while hunters received 2,869. https://georgesoutdoornews.bangordailynews.com/2018/01/30/hunting/anglers-break-more-laws-than-hunters/

More fishing violations, than hunting, is probably because more people fish than hunt. Nationwide, people that fish outnumber people that hunt by 3 to 1. I dont know what the ratio is in Maine.

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/2016/demo/fhw16-qkfact.pdf

Dogwood
01-12-2019, 19:28
If all hunters were always acting legally there would be no need for Game Wardens. Disenfranchised hunters are quite common bitching about all many of things. Some so much they excuse and justify illegal behavior. Hunters are not above the law or somehow ethically or morally levitating above the rest of humanity. Illegal hunting happens and hunters will steal from each other and vandalize other others stuff. Hunters losing hunting access to property and rights is not always done by non hunters. If you are a hunter assuming other hunters will not steal from or damage other hunters property or access you're setting yourself up to experience it.

zippyd8
01-12-2019, 23:15
As long as there are no people, there are no thefts.

zippyd8
01-12-2019, 23:16
Unless there are bears of course :)

AlaskaHiker
01-14-2019, 20:31
I've seen people grab others treking poles. Since so many hikers use the same poles, it's pretty easy, especially when there is a big pile of them. I make all my gear look like mine. Stickers, tape, yarn, and paint are cheap.

FrogLevel
01-14-2019, 22:49
Another reason to stay away from the Riff Raff crowd.

Dogwood
01-14-2019, 22:57
I wonder what the lightest, most unobtrusive GPS tracking devices are these days. Throw one at the bottom of your sleeping bag, for example.
https://www.reyzersystems.com/store/6a-172526-B01LONFAMO-Spy_Mini_GPS_Tracking_Finder_Device_Auto_Car_Pets_ Kids_Motorcycle_Tracker_Track.html?msclkid=78f6d7c c84aa1351f6a58bf1c23d4a02

If you are habituated to keeping your Smart Ph on your person integrate with that phone after downloading the App. When I was a MNGR at Garden Centers, and Head Horticulturalist at a NJ Golf Course, and involved in landscape contracting installation services to a greater extent we started doing LoJack type systems in mobile heavy equipment like combinations - Ditch Witches, SkidSteers, excavators, motorized wheel barrels, golf carts, small ATV's like John Deere work vehicles, underground irrigation and utility line power trenchers, vibration plate tampers, wet saws, wood chippers, etc, items commonly stolen and black market resold. We recovered stolen Deeres, employee golf carts, tampers, and a wood chipper this way. It helped we etched into the main body or clearly marked everything which dissuaded shady dealings. Everything that had a serial # was inventoried and recorded. It makes investigation and confirmation of ownership easier for authorities. Placing your name on gear helps. Make it a pt to display these labels. Make your gear somehow unique and easily personally identifiable.

4eyedbuzzard
01-15-2019, 07:21
Ultralight electric security fence? https://www.cabelas.com/product/UDAP-Bear-Electric-Fence/1242284.uts

It's shocking what people will buy :D

wordstew
01-15-2019, 11:39
Add a weathered beat up pack cover and throw these on over your hiking pants/shorts with an old beat up shirt/jacket before you hit town or the shelter and give the impression you may not have anything worth taking...
The faux jeans only weigh six ounces and you can sleep in them and blend in with the townies.

https://www.amazon.com/Under-Disguise-Lounge-Bottom-XX-Large/dp/B07HGJVH5W/ref=pd_sbs_193_4?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07HGJVH5W&pd_rd_r=ea48ba9d-18db-11e9-8f7f-a3cac3ed8f8d&pd_rd_w=ZQN6M&pd_rd_wg=YPvMb&pf_rd_p=7d5d9c3c-5e01-44ac-97fd-261afd40b865&pf_rd_r=RMM3NJW7RDQMWZKE52TB&psc=1&refRID=RMM3NJW7RDQMWZKE52TB

If you definitely want to have your stuff stolen roll into own with your expensive pack/gear dressed like this....
https://www.amazon.com/Women-Jackets-Winter-Cardigan-Outwear/dp/B07KR8D1N8/ref=sr_1_34?ie=UTF8&qid=1547566385&sr=8-34&keywords=faux+jeans+jacket

Stay safe out there

HooKooDooKu
01-15-2019, 16:35
I've seen people grab others treking poles. Since so many hikers use the same poles, it's pretty easy, especially when there is a big pile of them. I make all my gear look like mine. Stickers, tape, yarn, and paint are cheap.
Luggage is another place where you usually want to do something to make your distinct.

Many years ago, when we were flying as part of a major trip with several pieces of luggage, I randomly picked out 3 (if not 4) different colors of yarn, and twisted the set together and tied a piece on the handle of each piece of luggage... including carry-on item. Even though most of the luggage was very generic looking, I've so far never had an issue with someone accidentally trying to pickup any of my luggage off the conveyor belt (or at a security line), and those pieces of yarn are still on the luggage (at least the ones that have survived... some of those plastics in luggage will eventually start to break down, even if the luggage sits in your closet for years unused).

TNhiker
01-15-2019, 17:02
I've seen people grab others treking poles. Since so many hikers use the same poles, it's pretty easy, especially when there is a big pile of them. I make all my gear look like mine. Stickers, tape, yarn, and paint are cheap.



i wouldnt call this theft as opposed to just an accidental pick up of someone else's poles.....

to me theft would be intentionally taking it knowing it wasnt theirs......

Another Kevin
01-15-2019, 18:30
I've had two pieces of gear stolen in all my years of clueless weekending.

(1) I was soaked after a day of hiking in rain and dense fog. I hung my skivvies in my tent vestibule in the vain hope they'd be drier in the morning. A porcupine came under the rainfly in the night and made off with them.

(2) I was sleeping in a shelter (BAD IDEA!) with my empty pack under my feet for extra insulation. A raccoon pulled the pack out from under my feet and started to drag it away. He got a fair distance before I could get my bag unzipped and my boots on to chase him. He'd also rolled Just Bill's cookpot out of the shelter and down the hill, so I got that back as well. But the little bar-steward got my toilet paper!

As long as I'm at least, say, a half-mile from the road, I'm not overly worried about thieving vermin of the two-legged variety.

RangerZ
01-15-2019, 19:53
i wouldnt call this theft as opposed to just an accidental pick up of someone else's poles.....

to me theft would be intentionally taking it knowing it wasnt theirs......

< Gross generalization alert >

I think that that people are so careless about their trekking poles at shelters that it is easy to pick up someone else’s. Poles are everywhere - on picnic tables, against the platform edge, etc.

bushwhacker88
01-16-2019, 01:07
I wont deny that a hunter can still steal, but I dont consider a low-life scum a hunter. 9 times out of 10, he's a poacher. Thats not a hunter in my and my hunting companions book. Thats a scumbag. True hunters dont go around stealing and vandalizing.

MuddyWaters
01-16-2019, 06:58
I wont deny that a hunter can still steal, but I dont consider a low-life scum a hunter. 9 times out of 10, he's a poacher. Thats not a hunter in my and my hunting companions book. Thats a scumbag. True hunters dont go around stealing and vandalizing.

No such thing as a "true " hunter. Except your idea of what one should be. Maybe most peoples idea. But thats an idea, not reality.

All policemen arent good people
All teachers arent good people
All hunters arent good people
All hikers arent good people

Not even all religious leaders are good people.


Theres unscrupulous , immoral people everywhere, doing everything, across the board. There are more or less in some cases as background needed skews #s of good people relative to general population, but there are always some small percentage of bad ones.


I had someone i worked with many years ago , who had been" saved", or "born again", tell me that he once had been a professional thief. My wifes little brother was engaged to a girl whose father was a reverend. A reverend that went to jail for embezelling money from his church . (Girl turned out to be nuts too once engaged, got suspicious of his female coworkers and controlling , he had to call it off. This beautiful sweet girl everyone loved.....had a really warped idea of a marriage relationship imprinted on her by her own strange parents. )

You cant always judge a book by the cover. Sometimes you can, maybe even most of the time, but not always .
People can be pretty bizarre. Some are better at hiding it than others.

blw2
01-16-2019, 10:25
I think this discussion has turned an interesting direction. Something I've noticed has to do with groups of folks with a common interest.

One example....I'm an aviation buff. A private pilot. When I go to "airshows" such as EAA's Airventure, Sun n Fun, etc...which are basically week long trade show / convention / air shows... generally speaking the folks there do things like tending to keep the place clean, seem a bit more trustworthy when it comes to respecting other people's stuff, not stealing, being more polite and considerate, etc.... Of course there are all sorts of folks there, and often a mix of others from the "public" (especially weekends), but for the vast majority anyway...

On the other hand, when I go to a more municipal type airshow...what I call a "redneck airshow", the vast majority of folks there know little to nothing about aviation. It's a once in a while spectacle for them. Nothing wrong with any of that, it just the situation. At those events it seems that there is noticeably more trash, more chaos, more rudeness, etc... It has been very noticeable.

I've observed similar differences with other groups too.

My theory is that it has something to do with a common interest. It brings together "friends"...even if its a stranger, it's the type of person that if put together you'd have a really good chance of becoming friends with.

soilman
01-16-2019, 11:31
No such thing as a "true " hunter. Except your idea of what one should be. Maybe most peoples idea. But thats an idea, not reality.

All policemen arent good people
All teachers arent good people
All hunters arent good people
All hikers arent good people

People tend to shape opinions based on their world view. If ones experience with hunters is limited to a few hunters and they all exhibit bad behaviors, then that persons perception of hunters is skewed to believe that all hunters are bad. One bad apple can spoil the whole bunch. That is why hikers need to remember this on and off trail.

Another Kevin
01-16-2019, 12:12
No such thing as a "true " hunter.

No true Scotsman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) would do such a thing!



Theres unscrupulous , immoral people everywhere, doing everything, across the board. There are more or less in some cases as background needed skews #s of good people relative to general population, but there are always some small percentage of bad ones.


I've often observed to my wife about one prominent person or another, "He's an arsehole. A brilliant arsehole, but still an arsehole."

On the other hand, I've also observed that what saves us from many crimes, notably much worse terrorist attacks than we've ever seen, is that criminals are stupid. It is very rare for someone to have enough knowledge to come up with an effective scheme to work widespread murder and mayhem without also having acquired enough knowledge to understand that it's a really bad idea.



You cant always judge a book by the cover. Sometimes you can, maybe even most of the time, but not always


Ecclesiastes left out a line: I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but that's the way to bet.

kestral
01-17-2019, 13:15
I had some old reflective guy line rope from MSR. Put a loop of this on everything that came out of my pack. Not only was it easier to spot my stuff in a crowd of stuff, but in the dark it really showed up well by flashlight so I could find stuff I might otherwise forget. I noticed duck tape has a reflective tape, might be worth the investment to mark your gear with that.

This is assuming lost gear is accidentally picked up by others or left behind. A true theif can easily outsmart this simple plan. I wondered about the sanity of a nicely set up duplex with the owners slackpacking up a nearby peak. Probably $2,000 worth of gear left behind. Replacement cost, ruined trip, bruised ego, possibly dangerous weather without proper shelter. My stuff stays with me. Give people the benefit of the doubt, but don’t be stupid about it.

TexasBob
01-17-2019, 13:47
............... Give people the benefit of the doubt, but don’t be stupid about it.

Wise advice. I spent most of my life being very cautious about having something stolen. I realized one day that gear can be replaced pretty easily and constantly worrying about someone taking something was actually getting the way of enjoying an activity. Now I follow your advice. Be careful and be smart but don't let it spoil your fun.

Dogwood
01-17-2019, 14:07
< Gross generalization alert >

I think that that people are so careless about their trekking poles at shelters that it is easy to pick up someone else’s. Poles are everywhere - on picnic tables, against the platform edge, etc.

I've seen folks fall or trip breaking them probably more than a dozen times, mostly on the AT. A few I know abandoned their hikes as a result. For an item that can be more than $100/pr they are thrown about often aren't they?

RangerZ
01-17-2019, 15:18
I've seen folks fall or trip breaking them probably more than a dozen times, mostly on the AT. A few I know abandoned their hikes as a result. For an item that can be more than $100/pr they are thrown about often aren't they?

I was trying to be nice.

Game Warden
01-17-2019, 21:59
My original question was prompted by pictures I see of hikers on the Knife Edge near the northern terminus; nearly all seem to be wearing light day packs. So I wonder--where are their trail packs while they do the summit push? Left back at the Baxter State Park campsites?

4eyedbuzzard
01-17-2019, 22:20
My original question was prompted by pictures I see of hikers on the Knife Edge near the northern terminus; nearly all seem to be wearing light day packs. So I wonder--where are their trail packs while they do the summit push? Left back at the Baxter State Park campsites?You can leave your big pack with the ranger(s) at the Katahdin Stream Campground Station on the porch there. You can borrow a daypack there as well when you leave your pack. Or, just offload a lot of the gear and supplies you don't need for the climb in stuff sacks or bag.

Captain Panda
01-18-2019, 12:28
I myself was an innocent "thief" related to hiking poles. Stopped at a shelter for lunch in southern VA where several hikers were doing the same. After leaving, and climbing about a mile I looked down at my poles and saw some colorful duck tape on the shaft, realizing that they didn't belong to me. Oops ! Dropped my pack, and literally ran down the mountain hoping that whomever owned these poles was a NOBO like me. Luckily my poles were still there as well as the hikers, so I swapped them and moved on. This illustrates the issue that at shelters it isn't uncommon for ones gear to get mixed in with others gear. I now typically tent at shelter sites in order to take advantage of the "amenities", but NEVER sleep in the shelter. At the beginning of my hike I did sleep in shelters, and quickly found that it was too easy to misplace items mixed in with others stuff; almost unavoidable. That said; I have never experienced true theft of any of my gear, and in fact on those occasions, like leaving a hat at the site, it was found and brought up the trail to me by some anonymous hiker that I didn't know. Sure there are bad apples in the thru hiker community, but it's not too hard to identify them and keep a watchful eye on your stuff if they are around. There is also a few homeless people that you encounter on the trail that might be interested in some of your gear. But mostly I found that those folks are looking for food donations.

TOW
01-18-2019, 14:12
I hung out down at Boots Off last year for a couple of days hiking with Jim. At one of the trailheads, we saw packs in the bushes. He told me then that some hikers seemed to make this a practice. You are setting yourself up to be stolen from by doing this. As far as common theft it does not seem to happen much. Like someone pointed out already if anyone picks up a gear item it is usually because it looked like theirs, I have heard that story here at the hostel a couple of times. On occasion, I have been stolen from by a hiker but rarely. The hiking community as a whole are a good bunch. However, if you come to Trail Days or any other social events along the trail keep close tabs on your gear. Because local thugs will be scouting looking to steal.

atraildreamer
01-19-2019, 12:42
... someone taking something was actually getting the way of enjoying an activity. ..

No...they are not stealing to use the equipment for hiking. They are probably selling the stuff to finance their addiction...cigarettes,
booze, crack, meth, opiods...take your pick. I had a family member steal, and sell, my $300 down sleeping bag to get a $40 bag of drugs.


As a former employee of a burglar alarm firm, I can verify what a previous poster said about the intelligence of most criminals. It is very low.

Most of the "catches" of burglars, (101 in my case), were high, or drunk, or both, or wanted to cash in their ill-gotten gains for money to buy their addictive chemical of choice. I can think of only one case, in 16 years, where the burglars were stealing to eat.

Two kids broke into a grocery supply warehouse because they were hungry. They were released to the custody of the parent(s). The next night, they tried it again. This time, they were released into the custody of child protective services.

Even supposedly "educated" people can be extremely stupid when they let their addictions take over their lives. Five drunk college students broke a jewelry store window to grab the watches on display. Our dispatch office was literally right around the corner from the jewelry store and we were on scene in 30 seconds, and they were taken into custody. (Amazing how fast one can sober up when a 44 magnum is pointing at you!) All they got for their trouble was a felony record that will haunt them forever and effect every aspect of their lives.

petedelisio
01-19-2019, 12:57
An adolescent bear stole my boot at a shelter in the smokies.
I chased it around the camp for a minute, it stopped and let me yank it back out of its mouth.
When I was in the shelter gate entrance, it lumbered off looking depressed of sorts.

Dogwood
01-19-2019, 20:05
Uneducated - lacking formal education - does not equal stupidity.


Do not assume criminals are stupid or fit common societal criminal perceptions. If you do you could be setting yourself up to be at higher risk.


In the studies I've seen indicating criminals having an avg lower IQ compared to the avg higher IQ of non criminals of the same region the stats could have been unquestionably skewed. This in turn skews criminology conclusions hence crime lowering approaches...which in turn further influences criminal statistics. I would conclude there are plenty of intelligent criminals with closer to median IQ's under represented in criminological statistical studies.


I too had incorrectly assumed criminals are stupid which opened me up to a higher risk of loss.


Intelligent criminals are less likely to be indicted and found guilty because their crimes are more highly correlated with white collar crime - business, financial, embezzlement, fraud, money laundering, tax evasion, etc which trend towards less overall indictment and prosecutorial rates within the US judicial system. Media accounts makes us aware of the high profile more media worthy cases though. White collar criminals are more likely to fly under the radar because they are people correlated with enjoying higher social acceptances, creating societal assumptions of respectability and responsibility. Additionally, criminals know this too so often attempt to not stand out, to fit in to societal norms. I watch for this on trail and in trail associated activities to prevent against crimes.


The white collar criminal is not the criminal the US public tends to immediately think about when they think of criminals. Street and non white collar crime involving physical violence and illicit drugs, for example, are where US LE has historically focused which influences the public's perceptions of criminals...although those in LE might publicly disagree.



Financial wealth and intelligence are highly correlated so 'smart criminals 'tend to have the financial and intellectual means to better defend themselves and avoid detection of criminal behavior. I became acutely aware of this in business. :datzThis affects criminological statistics.


There is also a US focus on prosecuting and incarcerating lower-med level "less serious" illicit drug related crimes which correlates with people less wealthier, less powerful, and lower IQ. These are people - the little fish - easier to catch. Lower to med level drug related crimes represent the single largest percentage of offenders incarcerated in the US prison system. Again, LE and media combine to make us more aware of the media worthy message that crime is being tackled in sensationalizing the "big" seizures and drug busts and cherry picking which crime statistics to report. That approach influences public opinion, and sometimes how and if those within the judicial system proceed.


I once had the perception that it was addicts, defined by non socially accepted illicit drug addicts, to be largely on guard against. After all that defined many in prison. They were the root cause of much of the crime. While I was guarding against the overhand right and straight right jab coming from the illicit drug addicted I got caught cold with the knockout upper cut by the addictive criminal behaviors of white collar criminals and those who I assumed were "fitting in."


The greatest fundamental driver of all crime....is the love of money...in all of money's forms, what money relates, gives rise to. Be on guard against covetousness. LE investigations are aware of this as the prime motive.


Those who take excessive interests in higher priced gear, material possessions - off trail or on, or income, my McGruff the crime dog ears perk up.


When we can be content through guarding against over consumption and Materialism - avarice, to be conscious of need and want, there's less tendency towards crime,...and envy, jealousy, greed, over self indulgence, hate, contention, gluttony... less negative impact. The more these traits become evident in excess the higher tendency for crime...and perhaps greater incidences of avoiding considering one's character, ethics, and morality. These traits can indicate a lack of self restraint; perhaps, a trait on the rise? These traits became increasingly evident the more I LD UL backpacked. Awareness of these traits perk up those McGruff senses.


I became more conscious of behavior the more I backpacked. To surmise, I became more aware of theft characteristics and causes through LD backpacking. LOL. I would never have anticipated gaining these greater awarenesses in preparing for a first LD hike.


In turn so many other aspects were influenced as a hiker spending more time outside of cultural standards that guided me towards greater self control, minimalism, building a Tiny Home, losing body wt, greater awareness of and respect for the Natural world, becoming physically, financially, emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually "healthier", better adjusted, and living a more sober conscientious intentionally directed life. Interestingly, the more the tide lifted my boat the more I became aware that it was a very big boat with many others in it.


That's WHY a hike doesn't have to be approached or organized as a self indulgent it's all about me and my alienated vacation experience - AND IMHO should NOT be! As we lift ourselves we can uplift others. Our own behavior affects the behavior of others. It can have an affect on whether people steal.


Before I started LD backpacking I had no idea how it could affect someone's life path, including my own. :cool:

Another Kevin
01-20-2019, 00:58
Do not assume criminals are stupid or fit common societal criminal perceptions. If you do you could be setting yourself up to be at higher risk.
Anyone who'd steal my gear is pretty stupid by definition. It would be nearly worthless if fenced, even though some was unquestionably overpriced when new. There are surely better pickings elsewhere!

Yes, white collar criminals can be smart - and psychopathic. Nevertheless, they're smart enough to realize that bringing about the downfall of society would also totally ruin their rackets. And their profile is nothing at all like the profile of a bindlestiff, which is what the original poster was concerned about.

----
(Those who care only about gear theft, feel free to stop here.)
----

I find it hard to follow you into the "alienated vacation experience" rant, but maybe that's that we're coming to the same place from different angles. Of course my behaviour affects the behaviour of others. What goes around comes around, and as it goes, it grows. If I live ostentatiously, I'm living by Envy - keeping up with the Joneses. If I live by Envy, I'll excite the envy of others. I do that more than enough in spite of myself, just by being overeducated and endowed with some unearned privilege - both facts that are impossible to cast off and hard to hide.

But that's not the real reason that I have unprepossessing gear. I have stuff that works for me. I haven't much reason to replace it while it works. Most of it ain't pretty, but who cares? The fact that I don't have to worry much about someone making off with it is a side benefit that I never really considered.

Dogwood
01-20-2019, 02:20
High financial value is but one way to view the value of something. Value placed on something is subjective. Thieves who act in stupidity will carelessly risk reputation, arrest, and a criminal record resulting in loss of job opportunities, credit and integrity unconscientiously depriving others of their goods and services for something as little as a pack of cigarettes, can of fish, $20 Frog Toggs rain jacket if they don't have one and it's pouring rain, a hat if their head and ears are numb from cold, a $30 tent, snag someones' drying wool socks because theirs are worn out or they don't have as nice of ones, stiff a hostel for $25 in services rendered, stiff the NPS instead of purchasing a $20 GSMNP thru hiker permit because that's a law they are disenfranchised/offended. People will steal a $1 candy bar or 79 cts Bic. How many illegally stealth camp as ATers in the White Mountains to avoid a fee? People will falsify their backpacking accounts just to attain something as simple as the perceived social value associated with doing a thru hike. What, are you saying you've never caught these accounts here on WB?


I find it hard to follow you into the "alienated vacation experience" rant,"


I suspect that might be because I strongly suspect you don't backpack with that mindset striking me as one who is highly conscientious of others, and a larger whole, including your impact on the Natural world, your family, friends and strangers exhibited many times in your posts and PM communications so perhaps it makes it more difficult to notice it in other backpackers/hikers. Even then you should be able to notice it occurring in some posters perspectives on line.

You leave clues as to your character, exhibited and confirming what was just said, here: "...but maybe that's that's we're coming to the same place from different angles. Of course my behavior affects the behaviour of others."

:)

blw2
01-20-2019, 10:17
i was reading a trail journal yesterday. The guy wrote about leaving a water bottle at a trail intersection when he hiked a spur trail over to a waterfall or something....presumably so that his hiking partner would know if she passed...

to any random person passing by.... is this trash someone dropped by accident?....should I do the world a favor and pack out the trash?
then later, when the owner returns.... "who stole my water bottle?"

Dogwood
01-20-2019, 12:22
"Alienated vacation experience" is my way of referring to how some folks perceive or approach or define backpacking.


We don't hike within a bubble alienated from everything. You understand this phrasing it differently, "of course my behavior affects the behavior of others." Not only do you understand you live it out. You're conscientious of others, showing empathy. You consider your impact. You have repeatedly displayed a consideration of a larger whole, thinking beyond yourself. You're not a highly self centered person. That's what I was getting at with the word alienated.


A vacation is the way some perceive a hike. I do not recognize a hike has to be defined or approached that way. Nor do many others. I'm of like mind with Muir, Aldo Leopold, Richard Louv, Japanese culture, Australian Aborigines, Native American culture, and many others that maintaining connection with the natural world, which is what can be accomplished on a hike, is not a vacation but "a fundamental necessity to human health, well-being, spirit, and survival." As Louv pens in Nature Deficit Disorder "there are human costs of alienation from the natural world."


Some have said this is philosophical declaration...a worldview. Maybe it is. But so are core drivers that U.S. culture arose. U.S. citizens tend to ignore a deeper examination of this. Not every society ignores the historical and philosophical core beliefs - worldview - origins fundamental to their societal evolution.

kestral
01-20-2019, 12:28
i was reading a trail journal yesterday. The guy wrote about leaving a water bottle at a trail intersection when he hiked a spur trail over to a waterfall or something....presumably so that his hiking partner would know if she passed...

to any random person passing by.... is this trash someone dropped by accident?....should I do the world a favor and pack out the trash?
then later, when the owner returns.... "who stole my water bottle?"

I would have packed out the trash. I guess I would have been wrong, hopefully the injured party would reaquire it if / when a future common stop occurred. I guess I would be branded a theif?

”The road to hell is paved with good intentions “. Mom used to say that.