Garbage burning at the evening campfire

[4runner]

Anyone have any reasonable suggestions for discouraging the burning of garbage at the evening campfire??

I have a tough time, even with campers I know. With campers I don’t know, I find it tough to convince them to pack out their garbage rather than burn it.

Suggestions and/or links are welcome.

Thanks- 4R

[4eyedbuzzard]

What kind of garbage? Plastics and other petroleum based stuff can be a problem as they often don't burn completely, give off noxious fumes, and can leave toxins in ash residue that are different from wood ash toxins. As are things that don't fully burn like foils and such. Yeah, I pack them out. Maybe you could educate people as to the nature of burning different items and what can be left behind. Better yet, educate them on how to bring as little as possible in the way of potential waste in the first place. But as to burning paper or organics (like paper food packaging, or an apple core, or banana peel)? They are little different than firewood chemically, and as long as they burn completely to ash, what's left isn't adding much to the wood ash already there. And realistically, burning firewood itself isn't a clean, eco-friendly endeavor. Many are opposed to campfires altogether for this reason. And they have a valid point. Fire rings and remains of campfires are one of the biggest "traces" we leave behind - we gather up wood, then burn it emitting smoke full of toxins, leaving behind charred earth, and ash which is not only unsightly but also chemically full of toxins. But honestly, I enjoy a campfire. To me, it's part of the outdoor experience.

[Slo-go'en]

I've tried to convince people not to burn plastics or their tin cans in the fire. It doesn't work. They just get mad, defensive or don't give a S--t.

[moldy]

Just because you chose to set sail on the Looney toon express, that does not mean we all have to suffer your delusions. Carry your paper to town so they can burn it in the incinerator? HYOH

[Christoph]

I've tried to convince people not to burn plastics or their tin cans in the fire. It doesn't work. They just get mad, defensive or don't give a S--t.
This is true. Witnessed a guy spill an entire gallon Ziploc of mac and cheese (accidentally) on the fire and about 10 of us finally made him pick it out with sticks. I'd imagine it ended up down the trail somewhere anyway. He did leave the plastic spoon and Ziploc bag on the edge of the fire though but one of the other guys picked it and packed it out. Most don't really care or they'll ask if you're the forest police. But then the same ones will complain when they see cans and trash at trail heads.

[Puddlefish]

By the time it's in the fire, it's too late. One second they're chowing on a big foil bag of food, and you're not even thinking anyone would be stupid enough to put it in the fire, then the next second it's in the fire. Someone might say "Why would you do that?!" someone else might ask "going to come back and collect the remnants in the morning?" Then of course they'll say "it will burn cleanly!" even though it's obvious it's a poorly fed damp fire that has no chance of burning it, whereupon they'll dump another armload of damp wood on the fire, and head off to sleep, leaving a half smoldering fire to burn unattended. Whatever the specifics, whatever is said, they will not collect the foil and pack it out the next morning.

[Time Zone]

I was on a group bp trip when one person threw a beverage container in the fire, one which was made of a combo of coated paper product (like old milk cartons, if you recall) and a plastic screw top. I expressed a concern, and was laughed off with the question, "Do you know what plastics are made of? Oil! So all I'm burning is oil, like an oil lamp." Well my organic chemistry knowledge never got off the ground, but I suspected in the back of my mind that he was oversimplifying things, and that the fumes from burning plastic were NOT the same thing as the fumes from lamp oil. Indeed ... "dioxins" was the term I couldn't come up with in the moment. There's probably other nasties too but it always bothered me.

[MuddyWaters]

Id rather thet burnt it than left it intact.

Shelter caretakers will burn it...so they pack less out

But i preach no fires. Short of hypothermia, theres not a single legitimate reason to allow a fire on public land. People destroy millions of acres every year because they are conditioned to want a fire to feel safe outdoors.

Not to mention homes, and towns, and lives.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Id rather thet burnt it than left it intact.

Shelter caretakers will burn it...so they pack less out

But i preach no fires. Short of hypothermia, theres not a single legitimate reason to allow a fire on public land. People destroy millions of acres every year because they are conditioned to want a fire to feel safe outdoors.I understand the argument from the point of view of protecting against fires getting out of control. And there are obviously conditions that are reasonable under which to ban fires - drought, wind, sensitive areas, etc. But honestly, I don't think most experienced hikers build fires out of fear of predators or the outdoors (the worst behavior I've seen regarding excessively large or uncontrollable fires tends to be partiers and car campers). I think many hikers like to have fires more for the ambiance and to a lesser extent perhaps warmth and cooking. Whether or not those are legitimate reasons is subject to opinion.

[Slumgum]

I, for one, am not into the shelter scene. Most thru hikers are of the same mindset and terrific people. But there are occasionally those whose perceived "rights" make life difficult for us all and burning garbage is one of the many irritating behaviors I witness. LNT is plain and simple. Pack it in/ pack it out. There is no room to debate organic chemistry here. "It comes from oil and oil comes from the earth." "It is going to be incinerated at the landfill anyway." Those are excuses for people who have no business on the trail.

If some obnoxious bully tosses garbage into the fire and I am the only one who says something ... that person will try to make it look like I am the problem. But hikers should accept some responsibility beyond their own personal hiking practices. If someone tosses trash in the fire and EVERYONE comes down on them, then it is clear who is the problem.

[D2maine]

I, for one, am not into the shelter scene. Most thru hikers are of the same mindset and terrific people. But there are occasionally those whose perceived "rights" make life difficult for us all and burning garbage is one of the many irritating behaviors I witness. LNT is plain and simple. Pack it in/ pack it out. There is no room to debate organic chemistry here. "It comes from oil and oil comes from the earth." "It is going to be incinerated at the landfill anyway." Those are excuses for people who have no business on the trail.

If some obnoxious bully tosses garbage into the fire and I am the only one who says something ... that person will try to make it look like I am the problem. But hikers should accept some responsibility beyond their own personal hiking practices. If someone tosses trash in the fire and EVERYONE comes down on them, then it is clear who is the problem.


people in general are lazy and look only to their own self interest, sadly hikers are not immune to this

[Emerson Bigills]

I am in the same camp as Muddy. Unless it is cold and too early to sack out, I find fires to be more trouble than they are worth. I haven't started one in over 5 years. If one is going, I will gather wood and get some fellowship, but I am more of a hiker than a camper.

While I was in the Sierra this summer, I was amazed at the people that wanted to build camp fires below 10K ft, while thousands of acres were burning just north of us. I think the time is coming when campfires should be curtailed under most conditions.

[fiddlehead]

I have no problem with people burning their trash. But they should go through the fire in the morning and take out any left over residue from trash.

[devoidapop]

I live in a part of the country where folks still use burn barrels for their household trash. It is disgusting but you just can't get them to break the habit. Same thing at a campsite or shelter. My brother and I laid into a boy scout troop a couple years ago for burning their trash at an AT shelter and the scout leaders didn't see anything wrong with it. In their minds the only options were to burn it or leave it in the woods.

[D2maine]

I have no problem with people burning their trash. But they should go through the fire in the morning and take out any left over residue from trash.

lol ya right

[Slow Trek]

The only trash I have ever burned on the AT was the huge pile of garbage we found at a shelter. I have no problem packing out my trash,and always do. But the food and wrappers others leave becomes fuel.

[StubbleJumper]

The only trash I have ever burned on the AT was the huge pile of garbage we found at a shelter. I have no problem packing out my trash,and always do. But the food and wrappers others leave becomes fuel.


Yes, I end up doing this on occasion too. You roll into a shelter to spend the night, and the pigs from the previous week or two just abandoned their crap in the shelter. No biggie, just get a decent fire going if it's permitted and if the weather is suitable, and then burn that crap. I find that burning abandoned socks or shirts works best when you take a stick and hold the clothing above the fire so that it burns completely. After 20 minutes of effort, no more abandoned socks, no more t-shirts and no more sweatshirts. Cotton might kill, but it sure burns well.

[Starchild]

...
Shelter caretakers will burn it...so they pack less out

I've seen this also


But i preach no fires. Short of hypothermia, theres not a single legitimate reason to allow a fire on public land. ....

LNT disagrees with you. Basically there is a reason for camp fires to the point that they say to limit their use and size, but understand there is something very 'human' about them. Campfires is part of the natural experience of people in nature. LNT does not try to isolate people from nature, but tries to limit this connection in areas that don't detract from the experience one is trying to have. For instance hiking LNT has one and one's pet travel on durable surfaces, however this does not apply to hunting LNT.

[FreeGoldRush]

Very little of what I've carried into the woods is suitable for burning in a small fire. So far I haven't burned any trash while camping. At one place we saw where someone had recently cut down a healthy small tree and put it in the fire. It's crazy what people think will burn. Food, foil wrappers, clothing, plastic, bar wrappers, etc., clearly do not belong in a fire.

There are some things that should not bother anyone, however: A page from the AWOL guide that is no longer required, one of those dried cotton wipes that can be rehydrated (not baby wipes!), and... well, the list is pretty short. Almost nothing we carry burns easily.

But I am well aware that some people can only get along with short, binary rules. If those people are nearby then I'm happy to wait until the next day to destroy that unused page from AWOL.

[MuddyWaters]

Had a trail worker on CT tell us to put our trash in his giant bonfire. He was camped in one spot for a week, with several horses, doing trail work

Shelter caretaker has told me same thing.

[FreeGoldRush]

Had a trail worker on CT tell us to put our trash in his giant bonfire. He was camped in one spot for a week, with several horses, doing trail work
Shelter caretaker has told me same thing.

If you have a "giant bonfire" then that changes things a bit. I still wouldn't burn plastic. Foil certainly won't burn. But you can throw things like banana peelings, food, and clothing into a very hot fire and it will turn to ash. You can even throw green wood or soaking wet logs into a super hot fire and it'll burn completely. And I can't imagine trying to make a big fire while camping on the trail just to burn all that crap. But if someone is doing that as a tool to clean up and maintain the trail, then I certainly would have no issue with it.

[soilman]

Years ago my brother and I were staying at Spence Field shelter. That is when they had chain link fence over the front of the shelter. It was a rainy day and we were the only ones at the shelter. Two skunks came walking up to the shelter. My brother asked if the skunks could get through the fence. We soon discovered they could. They went immediately to the fireplace on the side of the shelter and started rooting around for garbage. After they were done there they climbed up on to the sleeping platform where were lying and proceeded to climb over us while we laid in our sleeping bags.

[Leo L.]

Wherever there is any possibility, packing out everything sure is the way to go.
On my local hikes I usually pick up other's thrash every now and then, too.

In the areas where I do most of my hikes (the Middle East deserts) there is no decent public thrash collection and treatment, so I find it best to deal with the thrash on-site as best as we can:
After breakfast is done and while packing up, and given there is some unburnt wood left, one of us puts more wood to the fire and burns all thrash that will burn in some way.
This includes candy wrappers and plasic bags.
We also throw empty tins in the fire to burn out all oils and food scraps.
Its essential to air the smoldering thrash a bit to get it burnt completely.
The blackened tins we drag out of the fire, stomp it flat and after let it cool down a few minuts pack it to carry out.
It helps that most packages in these countries are of traditional materials and rather poor quality. Most burn easily.
The more modern high-tech materials we bring, the harder they burn. Package materials of multi-layer composites are bad. Hightech plastic like used for Travellunch won't burn at all.

One of the reasons why we do this is, that animals in the desert (both, wild and stray domestic) will chew at and finally eat down each and every piece of pack material, be it paper, cardboard or plastic, that has any smell or taste of food in it.
Maybe goats can survive this, but camels and other ruminants accumulate plasic in the stomac and finally die (actually: starve to death).

[Sarcasm the elf]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jeSy7Lywl8A/VLiGod_G43I/AAAAAAAAAgs/FpjgBd8lUKU/s1600/Bill-The-Cat-thbbbt.jpg

[bighammer]

If you have a "giant bonfire" then that changes things a bit. I still wouldn't burn plastic. Foil certainly won't burn. But you can throw things like banana peelings, food, and clothing into a very hot fire and it will turn to ash. You can even throw green wood or soaking wet logs into a super hot fire and it'll burn completely. And I can't imagine trying to make a big fire while camping on the trail just to burn all that crap. But if someone is doing that as a tool to clean up and maintain the trail, then I certainly would have no issue with it.

In a hot fire, foil will burn pretty easily. Even aluminum cans will disappear. Steel cans and glass bottles are another story.

[peakbagger]

In a hot fire, foil will burn pretty easily. Even aluminum cans will disappear. Steel cans and glass bottles are another story.

Aluminum is not going to "burn" in any standard campfire, its melting temperature is 1200 F. All it does is end up in the ashes and eventually needs to be dug out and disposed of. I think a lot of the fallacy with "burning aluminum" is that aseptic packaging like tuna packs, some hot chocolate packs consists of very thin aluminum foil sandwiched between two layers of plastic. When put in a fire, if there isnt a lot of moist food or liquids in it, the plastic burns off very rapidly leaving thin foil sheets that usually crumple up. I have hauled more than few foil balls out of the woods from campfire pits. Its not particularly toxic but is trash nevertheless.

I do differ with the crowd on plastics, most but not all of the plastics brought into the backcountry are HDPEs, PETs and LDPEs they are petroleum based and burn quite cleanly and readily in a hot fire assuming they are not filled up with wet food or liquids. The nasty plastics are PVCs (think rubber ducky) which are far less prevalent in the backcountry. About the only PVC thing that you might run into is a cheap air mattress or possibly a liquid detergent bottle. It usually has a distinct odor and if marked with recycling code 3, its definitely something to be carried out.

Unless PVC is burned in controlled very high temperature conditions like a properly designed commercial incinerator it forms some very nasty byproducts one being Dioxin. PVC contains chlorine and that is the bad actor. Of course firewood can also contain trace amounts of chlorine and any large wildfire produces measurable amounts of dioxin.

If I have the time and a hot fire on a long trip I have dried out used ziplocks and burned them in a hot fire. The key is it has to be hot fire where the mass of the bag is negligible compared to mass of the firewood and the firewood has to be dry. If the fire is smouldering then it is not hot. Unfortunately the vast majority of attempts to burn plastic do not resemble a hot fire. What does not work is lighting off a pile of twigs and directly burning the the bags especially if they have wet food in them. There is a high likelihood that the only campfire hot enough to burn plastic will occur at night in dry conditions with dry firewood which can be rare in wet spring conditions, I expect few folks would ever light a fire hot enough in the AM.

I remember encountering a famous(at the time) hiker and her "crew/hangers on" one night. Her "crew" definitely had a "better than you" attitude. When they left in the morning they crumpled up their oatmeal bags and paper trash, threw some wet ziplocks on top of them then lit the paper on fire and headed out on the trail leaving the fire in fire pit. What was left was partially melted mess with some foil mixed in.

My take is it if you do elect to stay at a shelter site you need to put up with a lot of stuff. Its highly unlikely anything you say or do is going to influence the other persons behavior. Your options are stay away from shelters and in the future just avoid the individuals. Burning trash is typically a rookie mistake and the rookies tend to go away. Confronting someone you dont know in public is generally an exercise in futility.

[somers515]

. . . Its highly unlikely anything you say or do is going to influence the other persons behavior. Your options are stay away from shelters and in the future just avoid the individuals. Burning trash is typically a rookie mistake and the rookies tend to go away. Confronting someone you dont know in public is generally an exercise in futility.

Interesting post peak bagger - thank you.

I agree that confronting someone about what they are doing is unlikely to work but I don't think the answer is to do nothing either. Perhaps ask a couple of polite questions "Do you think that will burn in the fire?" They say yes. "Oh interesting, I had heard that it doesn't and caretakers have to sift thru the ashes and carry out the trash later, huh, perhaps it depends on what it is?" If said in the right tone, the person won't feel attacked and maybe they think about it a little before doing it next time.

Or if you don't want to say anything and are going to hit town the next day just carry out the trash. Maybe pick it up in the morning while they are packing up so they see you. Perhaps they feel a little guilty about it and don't do it next time. Not saying this would work every time but I think its worth a try.

Nudging those that aren't LNT toward LNT while not being too preachy or confrontational - that's my 2 cents. I know if I was doing something wrong, someone politely and non-confrontationally pointing out my mistake would be appreciated.

[Gambit McCrae]

Nothing out of my garbage bag goes into the fire. Depending on who throws what crap of their own into the fire that I am around, and how much encouragement Jack is giving me, I will say something to them. I haven't often but I will. If they are willing to litter and stink up the fire then I am willin to be an ass about it.

[soilman]

My experience is that most thru hikers don't build fires. I came into the Johns Hollow shelter on a hot June day around 4 and there were three section hikers there. They had a fire going. I asked why. They said to keep the bugs away.

[Five Tango]

I've got serious ambivalence about campfires-Love'm,Hate'm.I have had too much experience with forest fires to not fear them.If I am going to have a fire it's going to be in a well established ring when the wind is calm,relative humidity is over 40%,and the forest floor is too damp to burn.I pack out my trash,including the tp.I doubt anyone wants my tp residue in their fire ring.Yes,I don't have a fire often and I don't want to leave a legacy of having burned a National Forest,small town,and homes either.

[peakbagger]

In 2002 a friend and I started at the south end of SNP and headed south, we were well ahead of the bubble by several weeks. We usually had the shelters to ourselves during the week and occasionally shared with a weekender or two at best on a weekend. It was cold out and we tended to burn fires and clean up the sites in the evening. Many of the fire pits would have large unburnt logs filling up the ring and plenty of trash and foil. We would usually clean out the ring, reset the stones if needed and then get a good fire going and burn the trash in the pit unless it was obviously something like PVC or old fuel cannisters (found more than few propane and butane canisters in the firepits). We usually kept the fire going for a couple of hours until the large log pieces were burnt and the trash was gone. In the AM I would rake out the coals and grab the foil I could find and make sure the fire was out. The goal was to leave the place better than when we got there.

[Another Kevin]

I do differ with the crowd on plastics, most but not all of the plastics brought into the backcountry are HDPEs, PETs and LDPEs they are petroleum based and burn quite cleanly and readily in a hot fire assuming they are not filled up with wet food or liquids.

Yeah, but I can think of maybe once in the last decade that I was at a campsite with a hot enough fire. You want to have the sort where a Ziploc bag goes FOOF! when you toss it in. Then, do only LDPE bags or materials marked with recycle numbers 2, 4, or 5.

I'd stay away from burning PET (recycle number 1). If the burn is at all sooty, the soot will be filled with carcinogens.

Polyethylene and polypropylene of whatever density are ductile without needing to use any nasty plasticizer, and the catalyst is usually oxygen or an organic peroxide, which also will burn clean. They're also free of the aromatic ring structiures that make the soot from PET or PS so nasty. So your recycle numbers 2, 4, 5 are all right in a hot enough fire.

PVC - no, you do NOT want to burn that. Ever. (Maybe in an ultra-high-temp industrial incinerator with a stack scrubber.) If you've got anything with recycle number 3, pack it out!

Polystyrene, like PET, will burn cleanly at a high enough temperature, but in a campfire, even a roaring one, it will pollute the air with a lot of black soot filled with carcinogens. So recycle number 6 is a no-no.

Recycle number 7 is a lie. 7 is 'other material' that a vendor alleges is recyclable, but good luck finding a recycler! Since it contains God-only-knows-what, you don't want to burn it. (Exception to the 'lie' is that if plastic is marked '7 PLA' it's not recyclable, but compostable, so pack it out and put it with the organic waste when you get home.)

So yes, I will burn plastic in the field, but only specific materials and in specific circumstances. It's almost at the level of, "I know what I'm doing, but kids, don't try this at home!"

[Dogwood]

I burn merino socks in campfires. :D

[4eyedbuzzard]

I burn merino socks in campfires. :DSo, no worse environmentally than say, a mountain goat getting hit by lightning and burning up, right? :-? :eek: :p

[devoidapop]

I plant a tree everytime I see a mountain goat struck by lightning, in order to achieve carbon neutrality

[Another Kevin]

I burn merino socks in campfires. :D

You've been hiking for as long as you have and haven't yet learnt not to dry your clothing over a campfire? ;)

[theinfamousj]

Anyone have any reasonable suggestions for discouraging the burning of garbage at the evening campfire??

My suggestion has so far worked every single time for me:

In your biggest, brook no argument, mommyest voice ever, turn to the person who did the thing and say, "Young man, take that out of the fire immediately," while handing over sticks to assist him in his mission. Look them dead in the eyes with the most unamused expression ever and do not allow broken eye contact except for if they are moving to retrieve their junk.

If they dare to talk back, simply repeat the above words as if they had somehow failed verbal comprehension.

This isn't a debate or conversation. This is a they just made a bad choice and need to make amends. There isn't a second side. There isn't anything to consider. They need to go get that out of the fire right now.

Once the situation has been rectified, *then* teach the why of it.

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[TNhiker]

. Look them dead in the eyes with the most unamused expression ever and do not allow broken eye contact except for if they are moving to retrieve their junk.




yeah...

like thats going to go over well in the backcountry...

first i would size the person up, and then figure out from there...

im not willing to get my ass whupped over a piece of foil....

sorry....not sorry...

[theinfamousj]

No sane person is going to throw a punch because they are feeling chagrinned about having made a mistake. [emoji23]

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[TNhiker]

No sane person is going to throw a punch because they are feeling chagrinned about having made a mistake. [emoji23]

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key work----sane...

ive seen punches thrown for simpler stuff.....

not worth it....

[theinfamousj]

I choose to take the approach that most people are good people who have a sane handle on their emotions and are eager to correct any inadvertent mistakes as quickly as possible. I find that people meet my expectations.

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[perdidochas]

Anyone have any reasonable suggestions for discouraging the burning of garbage at the evening campfire??

I have a tough time, even with campers I know. With campers I don’t know, I find it tough to convince them to pack out their garbage rather than burn it.

Suggestions and/or links are welcome.

Thanks- 4R

IMHO, it depends on what kind of trash is being burned. Burning paper isn't a bad thing. Burning plastics is.

[blw2]

the bigger issue I think with being confrontational...or mother like...is that both of you think you are right. With issues like this there are almost always to schools of thought. I think we've seen it here....seems to me that we have some very knowledgeable folks here that probably do know which plastics to burn and when it would be ok. So...the person being the all knowing mom ...or otherwise scolding someone for burning plastic (for example) might just need to prepare to be schooled.

One thing I learned a long time ago... a person almost never knows all there is to know about any given topic. Even an expert doesn't know it all.

My advice....Just be careful being so sure of yourself.

[Dogwood]

the bigger issue I think with being confrontational...or mother like...is that both of you think you are right. With issues like this there are almost always to schools of thought. I think we've seen it here....seems to me that we have some very knowledgeable folks here that probably do know which plastics to burn and when it would be ok. So...the person being the all knowing mom ...or otherwise scolding someone for burning plastic (for example) might just need to prepare to be schooled.

One thing I learned a long time ago... a person almost never knows all there is to know about any given topic. Even an expert doesn't know it all.

My advice....Just be careful being so sure of yourself.
Here's someone who sa' learned. ;)

No person knows all there is to know about any topic including the topic of knowing oneself. :)

[Another Kevin]

the bigger issue I think with being confrontational...or mother like...is that both of you think you are right. With issues like this there are almost always to schools of thought. I think we've seen it here....seems to me that we have some very knowledgeable folks here that probably do know which plastics to burn and when it would be ok. So...the person being the all knowing mom ...or otherwise scolding someone for burning plastic (for example) might just need to prepare to be schooled.

I don't do it in front of people other than my own group, not so much for fear of a confrontation, but rather to avoid setting an example that it's all right to burn plastic in a fire, when it's almost never all right. I think it's been once in the last ten years that all the conditions of the right material, the hot enough fire, and the privacy all came together.

As far as seeing what others do, I tend to be confrontational very quietly. A few years ago (oh, lord, it's more like 15 years ago!), I was taking a weekend stroll in a local nature preserve (there's a nice 6-mile loop that goes around a canyon rim), and came upon an illegal fire ring and a bunch of trash. I broke up the fire ring, scattered the ashes, kicked leaves over the burnt spot, packed up the trash, and realized that a couple of drunk high-school boys were watching me from a hillside.. "Look at the garbage man!" one exclaimed, and they pitched a couple of empties at me.

I picked them up, added them to the haul, and said, "Thanks, but there's no need to throw them down here. I can come up there and get them if you're too weak to pack them out by yourselves."

That weekend's trash haul was weird. In addition to the usual debris, it included (from separate locations) a pink beanie, a black rubber glove, the bar cover from a chainsaw, and the debris from what was almost certainly an interrupted tryst. (A pair of boxer shorts, and a, uhm, contraceptive device and wrapper. It had been unrolled but its user had apparently not finished doing what one ordinarily does with such a thing. I can imagine someone pulling on his pants in a tearing hurry and hightailing it out of there commando. But who Does It right on a trail?)

The things you find. Another hike, in a different wood, it was a load of spent 12-gauge shells. A little over half a kitchen garbage bag full. Made me wonder how long someone had had a trap range on state land.

Pity the trail maintainers. Among the things they have to do is tidy up after the people who don't follow Deuteronomy 23:13. (LNT in the Bible. You can look it up.)

[kestral]

[QUOTE=peakbagger;2234389. The goal was to leave the place better than when we got there.[/QUOTE]

My kind of hiker. When I was a weblo scout leader, way back in the day, I always told the boys to leave a place nicer than you found it, then you will always be invited back. We would have a mini competition to find the most trash prior to leaving. The boys would scour the ground for any little bit and would bring back a hubcap with the pride of big game hunters. I’ve made a lot of mistakes in my life, but this I got right.

[theinfamousj]

Yikes. Y'all mothers were authoritarian I guess. Mine and the one I model myself after guided me when I made mistakes and helped me rectify them. Confrontational isn't a word I put with mothering.

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[perdidochas]

My kind of hiker. When I was a weblo scout leader, way back in the day, I always told the boys to leave a place nicer than you found it, then you will always be invited back. We would have a mini competition to find the most trash prior to leaving. The boys would scour the ground for any little bit and would bring back a hubcap with the pride of big game hunters. I’ve made a lot of mistakes in my life, but this I got right.

Still telling the boys that (I was a Boy Scout leader from 2010 until 2017). We would sometimes drop a quarter on the ground somewhere in the campsite before cleanup, and see if anybody found it.

[BillyGr]

As far as seeing what others do, I tend to be confrontational very quietly. A few years ago (oh, lord, it's more like 15 years ago!), I was taking a weekend stroll in a local nature preserve (there's a nice 6-mile loop that goes around a canyon rim), and came upon an illegal fire ring and a bunch of trash. I broke up the fire ring, scattered the ashes, kicked leaves over the burnt spot, packed up the trash, and realized that a couple of drunk high-school boys were watching me from a hillside.. "Look at the garbage man!" one exclaimed, and they pitched a couple of empties at me.


That couldn't be the same local preserve where they have to rescue someone at least once or twice a year (and occasionally the rescue becomes a recovery), most of whom probably fall into the same category as the boys you mention as the terrain isn't really that bad as long as you follow the trails and use appropriate cautions like not being drunk near the edge of a canyon, could it?


Still telling the boys that (I was a Boy Scout leader from 2010 until 2017). We would sometimes drop a quarter on the ground somewhere in the campsite before cleanup, and see if anybody found it.

Never thought of that but will have to keep it in mind :)

[Another Kevin]

That couldn't be the same local preserve where they have to rescue someone at least once or twice a year (and occasionally the rescue becomes a recovery), most of whom probably fall into the same category as the boys you mention as the terrain isn't really that bad as long as you follow the trails and use appropriate cautions like not being drunk near the edge of a canyon, could it?

I can think of several places that meet your description. Yes, this was one of them. It isn't Kaaterskill Falls (which is what I think you may be referring to). Plotter Kill is much smaller and less well known, but does indeed have frequent rescues and terrain that's not that bad if you're not stupid.

https://dailygazette.com/article/2018/12/12/four-rescued-from-rotterdam-s-plotter-kill-preserve was the latest round of stupidity that I heard about. There was a recovery last April, but that was an apparent suicide.

But there are other sensible cautions, like don't ride ATVs illegally on a powerline cut that goes over a cliff: https://www.firehouse.com/home/news/10518981/new-york-state-firefighters-rescue-three-after-car-accident

Don't go rock scrambling in icy conditions without either a belay or any traction gear: https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Man-rescued-from-Plotter-Kill-Preserve-12513652.php

And at least once accident that is really not well explained: https://dailygazette.com/article/2015/05/13/woman-severely-injured-after-plotter-kill-fall

And there's nearly a weekly rescue in summer of someone who's gotten 'lost' (and is usually found on a blazed trail).

The big thing with it is that it's right by town. People don't realize that it's a preserve, not a park, and go in expecting to find nice paved trails, handrails, and the like - and find conditions that any hiker would find typical, including a couple of trails that aren't technical, but need surefootedness (and traction gear if it's icy.) So you get people trying to scramble ledges wearing flip-flops, stuff like that.

The slide where the ATV riders overturned is one of my favorite places for practicing self-arrest. The runout is pretty safe, and I can take half a dozen falls between the rim and the stream. (Haven't done that yet this winter, but after the weather that's forecast for the upcoming weekend, there should be enough ice to give it a try.)

[4eyedbuzzard]

In 2002 a friend and I started at the south end of SNP and headed south, we were well ahead of the bubble by several weeks. We usually had the shelters to ourselves during the week and occasionally shared with a weekender or two at best on a weekend. It was cold out and we tended to burn fires and clean up the sites in the evening. Many of the fire pits would have large unburnt logs filling up the ring and plenty of trash and foil. We would usually clean out the ring, reset the stones if needed and then get a good fire going and burn the trash in the pit unless it was obviously something like PVC or old fuel cannisters (found more than few propane and butane canisters in the firepits). We usually kept the fire going for a couple of hours until the large log pieces were burnt and the trash was gone. In the AM I would rake out the coals and grab the foil I could find and make sure the fire was out. The goal was to leave the place better than when we got there.


My kind of hiker. When I was a weblo scout leader, way back in the day, I always told the boys to leave a place nicer than you found it, then you will always be invited back. We would have a mini competition to find the most trash prior to leaving. The boys would scour the ground for any little bit and would bring back a hubcap with the pride of big game hunters. I’ve made a lot of mistakes in my life, but this I got right.

This is what we taught scouts, at least years ago - leave the camp/shelter (and trail) better than you found it. Sweep the shelter out, clean up the fire pit, put up a small stock of firewood for the next hikers who arrive, and police the general area. We also stressed behaving respectfully both on the trail and in towns. Nothing gives hikers in general a bad name more than disrespectful/impolite behavior in trail towns.

[tdoczi]

I
That weekend's trash haul was weird. In addition to the usual debris, it included (from separate locations) a pink beanie, a black rubber glove, the bar cover from a chainsaw, and the debris from what was almost certainly an interrupted tryst. (A pair of boxer shorts, and a, uhm, contraceptive device and wrapper. It had been unrolled but its user had apparently not finished doing what one ordinarily does with such a thing. I can imagine someone pulling on his pants in a tearing hurry and hightailing it out of there commando. But who Does It right on a trail?)

the most important question is perhaps still unanswered- is it safe to burn used "contraceptive devices" in a campfire?

i guess it depends on whether its latex, natural or polyurethane.

[Leo L.]

Contraceptive Rubbers decay in UV light quite easily.
Any contents are biodegradeable, too.

[peakbagger]

I run into the biodegradable "theory" all the time when poorly educated folks decide to dump stuff along the trails and at campgrounds. The same flawed theory applies to toilet paper. Unfortunately trash and garbage also breeds more trash and garbage.

[MuddyWaters]

Everything is biodegradeable.
Only difference is rate

Some things are a few months
Some may be 100,000 years

[Leo L.]

I'm with you 100%.
I'm also with others suggesting to leave a place cleaner than it had been before.

Obviously my joke in answering tdoczy didn't come thru...

[tdoczi]

Contraceptive Rubbers decay in UV light quite easily.
Any contents are biodegradeable, too.

so you're saying this would be best discussed in the throwing garbage in the woods thread, not the burning garbage in the fire thread?

[tdoczi]

Contraceptive Rubbers decay in UV light quite easily.
Any contents are biodegradeable, too.
or are you suggesting melting them with my steripen??

that would need to be a whole new thread i think.