Has Society Become Softer

[Gambit McCrae]

I personally am a firm believer that on average, as time goes on, society becomes softer. As it has always been mentioned forever before Grandma Gatewood used a shower curtain. And Earl Schaffer carried a 1930's rucksack. This is a sample of 2 people compared to the tens of thousands that do it the "normal" way. Other examples could be the barefoot sisters, the Blind Hiker Trevor Thomas as well as Bill Erwin...All obviously pretty tough folks.

Thoughts?

[RangerZ]

Wait a minute, let me get the popcorn started. :banana

[Rain Man]

Definitely softer. As an example, I notice a trend for Cookeville, Tennessee "hikers" to spend a lot of time indoors at keyboards, instead of out skinning squirrels and slopping hogs for food and clothing nor sleeping in the woods under a buffalo skin in the dead of winter.

Just pullin' yer lag, GM! ~wink~

P.S. & BTW: I agree those you named seem pretty tough in my book, certainly tougher than I am.

[ldsailor]

Society got softer because the advances in technology made us softer. We don't ride horses for transportation anymore, nor do we burn wood in fireplaces to heat homes. (Yes, I know some people still ride horses for sport, leisure, etc and fireplaces are more a fashion statement in the modern home; although there are cabins that use it as a primary source, but those are small exceptions). And those examples are just the beginning. A book can be written about the advances in technology and what it has done to and for our society for the good and bad.

I read an interesting series of books starting with the first book "Going Home" by A. American. It shows what could happen if technology would suddenly be rendered dead in our society. It is an interesting read, and I wonder if a lot of what is written would actually happen.

Nevertheless, I don't think I ever want to go backward to what things were like 100 years ago and even further.

[illabelle]

What's toughness? Resurrect Daniel Boone and dump him in the roughest part of Detroit or Chicago or _____.

In the WhiteBlaze context we typically think of the challenges of the wilderness with woods and wild beasts. But if we re-define wilderness to mean an unfamiliar place full of dangerous conditions and entities, the things that a youth in some cities learns to deal with daily might be very challenging to ol' Dan'l.

What's tougher? Enduring the taunts of a bully? The rejection of a lover? The loss of a loved one? Fleeing from war? Fighting cancer? Hard to answer!

Are we soft? Well yeah. I mean when I grew up in Oklahoma we didn't have air conditioning. It was hot. My first few cars didn't have A/C. Those vinyl seats were hot. Nowadays EVERYONE has A/C (at least here in the South). And that's just one example.

[Gambit McCrae]

Definitely softer. As an example, I notice a trend for Cookeville, Tennessee "hikers" to spend a lot of time indoors at keyboards, instead of out skinning squirrels and slopping hogs for food and clothing nor sleeping in the woods under a buffalo skin in the dead of winter.

Just pullin' yer lag, GM! ~wink~


yea Rainman Im getting old and fat, time to take up the rocking chair I guess....Have any pointers for me on how to cope with it?? :-?

[martinb]

Sure, it has gotten softer. My grandparents survived the depression. My parents dealt with the hardships of WW2 and its aftermath. Today, if a certain video game isn't available, the kids lose it.

[DapperD]

I have some pointers. You can either roll over and give up and die or take charge of your own destiny. Someone once said "Life is what you make of it" and Iv'e never heard that phrase challenged successfully in any way LOL.

[DapperD]

The aftermath of WW2 in America was the Industrial Revolution. Jobs and construction of homes and buildings and farming and other hard labor intensive fields exploded into life. Many people then did not work cushy white collar jobs. We have gotten softer because as time went on a lot of those jobs dried up and disappeared.

Also many young men and women don't want to have to work like that today. Also add in the poisoned junk offered for sale as food in this country easily found readily available everywhere, and the end results are less than satisfactory for our health.

[DuneElliot]

We're softer than our grandparents. They were softer than those who came 100 years before them...and so it continues backwards to the Stone Age...each generation has generally had it easier than the ones that came before it. As our knowledge evolves so does our ease of living because we create for ourselves a better life.

[Dogwood]

It seems so.

Is there greater evidence of these actions(fruits, character traits) - love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control - or the antithesis?

Individual perspectives are subjectively relevant but it seems IMHO there is decreasing evidence.

Forbearance is a trait IMO were noticing a decrease. Most wouldn't even know what forbearance means to describe humanity. Forbearance - patient self control; restraint and tolerance. That might indicate something. Evolution of language, which includes what words are used, is a reflection of its society - what and how people are thinking.

How about using the words lies, deceit, and integrity? Using those words results in defensiveness rather than honest soul searching introspection. All are decreasingly used as we water down language to make behavior more palatable. It's to make language less offensive, less effective, less forceful, weaker, so we can become less offended, less "discriminated" against, and less forced to recognize uncomfortable truths. It parallels a society becoming increasingly more easily offended, less truthful, and with a greater desire for comfort. It parallels a rise in the need for feelings(changing emotions) to be validated and be made to seem more important than truth or reality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSp8IyaKCs0 George Carlin. Comedians careers are centered around the use of language and observing social norms.


All of this indicates to me a society thinner skinned with less backbone, softer and capable of imploding on itself into social chaos.

[Time Zone]

Prosperity is a risk factor for getting softer.

In fact, as we (as a society) eat more and exercise less, "prosperity has become a cause of death." (J. Eyer/R. Sapolsky)

[Dogwood]

Prosperity is a risk factor for getting softer.

In fact, as we (as a society) eat more and exercise less, "prosperity has become a cause of death." (J. Eyer/R. Sapolsky)

Wow...me a learned sumptin'.

[soumodeler]

I have to agree that as a whole, we have grown softer. Yes, there are probably many exceptions to this statement, but I see too many people who freak out at the slightest inconvenience or won't pick up a tool to fix something because it is easier to go buy a new one. I know many people who wouldn't go camping for money, because of any number of reasons, mostly because its not sitting in front of the TV.

I don't get out nearly as often as I should or would like, but I do go out and backpack enough to know how good we have it. The luxury items I wouldn't dream of leaving at home would be laughed at 30 years ago. I guess you could say I am softer, because I can't say for sure if I would enjoy backpacking nearly as much by using gear from another era.

[Venchka]

It’s already been said as far as I’m concerned. The fact that the trip was photographed with the equipment of the day is most amazing.
A 300 mile winter trip through the Sierras.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.fresnobee.com/news/local/article223956445.html

Wayne

[FrogLevel]

Probably. Its a great thing because that means people have higher standards of living.

Nobody would choose to go back to the days of Horace Kephart exploring the smokies and those who lived here. Why? Because it was a miserable existence of poverty constantly on the verge of starvation, wanton violence and early death due to completely curable conditions.

Nostalgia about the past is dangerous.

[ocourse]

I personally am a firm believer that on average, as time goes on, society becomes softer. As it has always been mentioned forever before Grandma Gatewood used a shower curtain. And Earl Schaffer carried a 1930's rucksack. This is a sample of 2 people compared to the tens of thousands that do it the "normal" way. Other examples could be the barefoot sisters, the Blind Hiker Trevor Thomas as well as Bill Erwin...All obviously pretty tough folks.

Thoughts?
Yes, folks have absolutely gotten "softer"! I am 63, and and I don't know a single person younger than me who wants to do anything. They seem scared of their own shadow. Seem to be alarmed about ideas, even words.

[martinb]

Seem to be alarmed about ideas, even words.

"Job"

*deer in headlights look*

[Seatbelt]

This has been a subject of consideration in my mind for some time, especially as I observe todays farmers and their methods compared to how we performed when I was growing up. I rarely see anyone actually "laboring" in the fields, even the hay harvest is mostly done by fat men operating machinery. Except for the Amish, that is.

[Dogwood]

Probably. Its a great thing because that means people have higher standards of living.

Nobody would choose to go back to the days of Horace Kephart exploring the smokies and those who lived here. Why? Because it was a miserable existence of poverty constantly on the verge of starvation, wanton violence and early death due to completely curable conditions.

Nostalgia about the past is dangerous.

Granted the good ole days were not always as good as nostalgically portrayed.


Ignoring all the consequences, good and bad, of our individual and societal self validating behaviors are more dangerous.

"Its a great thing because that means people have higher standards of living."

Absolutely, not necessarily!

This has to be more closely examined from a global perspective. Who gets to define a higher standard of living(HSOL) and the markers used to make those assessments are subjective. Often, SOL and prosperity is narrowly perceived in economically wealthier nations by comparing per capita income(money) and Gross National Product. The most commonly accepted theory, and a very compelling one if narrowly only positively perceived, is the higher per capita income the higher the SOL. HOWEVER, that is NOT the only way to define a HSOL and prosperity.

It's the same when backpackers talk about their kits. We tend to perceive our gear, our ways as upright, positive, and laud them sometimes ignoring the negatives.

HSOL is most often perceived as a positive. Indeed, there are many positives but the negatives are widely ignored. In the West and Western based societies, which we have been habituated, we base SOL and prosperity on the economy in terms of material wealth and production of goods and services only in regard to the financial economy. This leads to coveting material wealth, rampant consumerism, psychological issues on a societal level such as depression and anxiety, physical issues such as higher obesity and cardiovascular disease rates, ecological disasters, depletion of finite natural resources, higher crime rates in important societal impacting categories such as theft and financial crimes, devaluing of spiritual values, higher problematic face to face personal relationships, higher and greater numbers of ego centric satisfying attitudes,...

These are some of the negatives ignored when we only see the world through our own beliefs, behavior, and values. These negatives are ignored virtually entirely in accounts of U.S. History as told from a pro U.S. perspective. Talk about societal and cultural propaganda!


All the while we become less forbearing - less patient, self controlled, restrained, mindful and tolerant as a Nation - softer - more thin skinned.

[FrogLevel]

Granted the good ole days were not always as good as nostalgically portrayed.


Ignoring all the consequences, good and bad, of our individual and societal self validating behaviors are more dangerous.

"Its a great thing because that means people have higher standards of living."

Absolutely, not necessarily!

This has to be more closely examined from a global perspective. Who gets to define a higher standard of living(HSOL) and the markers used to make those assessments are subjective. Often, SOL and prosperity is narrowly perceived in economically wealthier nations by comparing per capita income(money) and Gross National Product. The most commonly accepted theory, and a very compelling one if narrowly only positively perceived, is the higher per capita income the higher the SOL. HOWEVER, that is NOT the only way to define a HSOL and prosperity.

It's the same when backpackers talk about their kits. We tend to perceive our gear, our ways as upright, positive, and laud them sometimes ignoring the negatives.

HSOL is most often perceived as a positive. Indeed, there are many positives but the negatives are widely ignored. In the West and Western based societies, which we have been habituated, we base SOL and prosperity on the economy in terms of material wealth and production of goods and services only in regard to the financial economy. This leads to coveting material wealth, rampant consumerism, psychological issues on a societal level such as depression and anxiety, physical issues such as higher obesity and cardiovascular disease rates, ecological disasters, depletion of finite natural resources, higher crime rates in important societal impacting categories such as theft and financial crimes, devaluing of spiritual values, higher problematic face to face personal relationships, higher and greater numbers of ego centric satisfying attitudes,...

These are some of the negatives ignored when we only see the world through our own beliefs, behavior, and values. These negatives are ignored virtually entirely in accounts of U.S. History as told from a pro U.S. perspective. Talk about societal and cultural propaganda!


All the while we become less forbearing - less patient, self controlled, restrained, mindful and tolerant as a Nation - softer - more thin skinned.

I was thinking more along the lines of access to a variety of food year round, vaccinations, healthcare, education, infrastructure, etc. Even the negative things you listed are often results of people living longer lives which is almost always a good thing to the individual. Heart disease and cancer rates were more rare because they were kicked in the face by a horse, were murdered for some flour or had a hangnail that got infected and they died from an infection after suffering for 6 weeks.

I think if you ask the average Chinese, Indian, German, or Nigerian if they are living better today than their parents were 50 or 100 years ago 99 of them would say they are.

[Dogwood]

I personally am a firm believer that on average, as time goes on, society becomes softer. As it has always been mentioned forever before Grandma Gatewood used a shower curtain. And Earl Schaffer carried a 1930's rucksack. This is a sample of 2 people compared to the tens of thousands that do it the "normal" way. Other examples could be the barefoot sisters, the Blind Hiker Trevor Thomas as well as Bill Erwin...All obviously pretty tough folks.
Thoughts?

GG I know for sure, and I suspect ES and BE, were less materialistic...because they lived in a less materialistic era. As said, the more financially prosperous a Nation, a culture, the more it's citizens are materialistic tending toward consumerism. The more evidence of a society's reliance on Materialism as the underlying philosophy the more evidence of depression, anxiety, social isolation, unhappiness, less peace NOT more, national and cultural intolerances, greater seeking of worldly ambitions, contentions, etc.

We live in a darn contentious nation from top to bottom and across the socio-economic spectrum.

Measuring success only or largely in terms of material possessions and a physical reality and the social value they project makes us softer, a very different narrative than what we're almost always told.

Current humanity should not ignore the underlying reasons why some of the world's greatest civilizations fell.

A lot of it arises out of coveting. When a society unduly bases their progress and value and social and political structure on a love of money you'll find it eventually implodes.


A journalist at The Guardian wrote an article a few yrs back I found interesting. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/09/materialism-system-eats-us-from-inside-out

ON Netflix there's a documentary called Happy we might want to consider watching and really listening.

[ocourse]

My main point is that the majority of people are lazy and entitled. This is my overwhelming experience. I work with this type of slacker
too.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Probably. Its a great thing because that means people have higher standards of living.

Nobody would choose to go back to the days of Horace Kephart exploring the smokies and those who lived here. Why? Because it was a miserable existence of poverty constantly on the verge of starvation, wanton violence and early death due to completely curable conditions.

Nostalgia about the past is dangerous.Or, as George Carlin noted, "The good old days, back when botulism was a sauce."

[Dogwood]

I was thinking more along the lines of access to a variety of food year round, vaccinations, healthcare, education, infrastructure, etc. Even the negative things you listed are often results of people living longer lives which is almost always a good thing to the individual. Heart disease and cancer rates were more rare because they were kicked in the face by a horse, were murdered for some flour or had a hangnail that got infected and they died from an infection after suffering for 6 weeks.

I think if you ask the average Chinese, Indian, German, or Nigerian if they are living better today than their parents were 50 or 100 years ago 99 of them would say they are.

You're right those are perceived as the positives. There would be few disagreements about those aspects as positives but respectfully you're being naive as you're ignoring the listed negative consequences by excusing them by attribution to longer life spans. Those are negatives attributed to or correlated with what a materialistic consumer based financially economical structured society. It ignores other possible ways to define SOL and prosperity. What I posted was based on non pro western societal and psychological meta analysis with less regional prejudice. To repeat we often judge what we are most social habituated tending to narrowly judging along the positives ignoring the negatives.

TO BE CLEAR I was not attempting to destroy that which you identify. FWIW, personally I likely similarly identify with much as you do. Again, I was attempting for us to consider things globally rather than Nationally or even regionally. :)

[imscotty]

It’s already been said as far as I’m concerned. The fact that the trip was photographed with the equipment of the day is most amazing.
A 300 mile winter trip through the Sierras.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.fresnobee.com/news/local/article223956445.html
Wayne
Thank you for that, the photos are amazing.

[Uriah]

Nostalgia about the past is dangerous.

Nostalgia about the future is even more dangerous.

[imscotty]

yea Rainman Im getting old and fat, time to take up the rocking chair I guess....Have any pointers for me on how to cope with it?? :-?

Gambit, "Old age ain't no place for sissies." (Bette Davis).

[Venchka]

Thank you for that, the photos are amazing.
You’re welcome! A friend and Bee subscriber shared the story with me.
Just imagine. A 300 mile winter trek through the Sierra Nevada without benefit of the Internet.
Boggles the mind!
Wayne

[Gambit McCrae]

You’re welcome! A friend and Bee subscriber shared the story with me.
Just imagine. A 300 mile winter trek through the Sierra Nevada without benefit of the Internet.
Boggles the mind!
Wayne

That was pretty cool Wayne thanks for sharing!

[Gambit McCrae]

Gambit, "Old age ain't no place for sissies." (Bette Davis).

Scotty, "Older the Violin the sweeter the music" Augustus McCrae :)

[TexasBob]

People may be softer now because they can be softer and live a good life. I am sure Neanderthals thought Cro-Magnons where wimps too. I can imagine them sitting around a fire talking - "We didn't have bows and arrows in my day. We had stab Mastodons with spears. These new people are really soft."

[Old Hillwalker]

This old guy thinks so, but all old folks have probably held that opinion. My dad did, my grandfather did and so on.

[Sarcasm the elf]

“Whither are the manly vigour and athletic appearance of our forefathers flown? Can these be their legitimate heirs? Surely, no; a race of effeminate, self-admiring, emaciated fribbles can never have descended in a direct line from the heroes of Potiers and Agincourt…”
Letter in Town and Country magazine republished in Paris Fashion: A Cultural History
1771

https://historyhustle.com/2500-years-of-people-complaining-about-the-younger-generation/

[Zalman]

This old guy thinks so, but all old folks have probably held that opinion. My dad did, my grandfather did and so on.

Well, you might all be right, if we're looking at a general trend.

That said, "softness" has many forms. As technology gets better at easing physical burdens, sure we get physically softer. I suspect we're more mentally resistant in some ways though for the same reason: imagine the overwhelming disorientation someone from, say, the late 1900's would feel being subjected to the noise, distraction, and furor of the modern world. I remember getting discombobulated myself when first seeing video billboards, for example. We're all a little blinded to the things we're most used to, and thus most inured to.

[Rain Man]

Gambit, "Old age ain't no place for sissies." (Bette Davis).

LOL ... you beat me to it!!!

[Rain Man]

Scotty, "Older the Violin the sweeter the music" Augustus McCrae :)

That Augustus feller is right smart.

[rmitchell]

What's toughness? Resurrect Daniel Boone and dump him in the roughest part of Detroit or Chicago or _____.

In the WhiteBlaze context we typically think of the challenges of the wilderness with woods and wild beasts. But if we re-define wilderness to mean an unfamiliar place full of dangerous conditions and entities, the things that a youth in some cities learns to deal with daily might be very challenging to ol' Dan'l.

What's tougher? Enduring the taunts of a bully? The rejection of a lover? The loss of a loved one? Fleeing from war? Fighting cancer? Hard to answer!

Are we soft? Well yeah. I mean when I grew up in Oklahoma we didn't have air conditioning. It was hot. My first few cars didn't have A/C. Those vinyl seats were hot. Nowadays EVERYONE has A/C (at least here in the South). And that's just one example.

Good perspective.


And thanks for reminding me . I am home now with a spouse battling cancer. One tough lady.

[rmitchell]

Our ancestors had to be tough to survive and pass on their genes.

The first ones either got to this continent by walking or on wooden ships with sails.

Conditions weeded out the weak and/or stupid. We are a product of their success.

Will future generations continue to improve?

[Slugg]

This relative young'n says yes. First example that comes to my head is being free to roam around my neighborhood (and woods) until dark when I was around 10 years old. No phone or anything of course. Statistically speaking the world has never been safer yet nowadays I get the sense that most parents would not let their child do this, even if they were a bit older.

Other examples that come to my head that have changed just in my lifetime are flag football instead of tackle, people not knowing how to change a tire, acting like it's an achievement to "graduate" elementary or middle school, banning (even smokeless) tobacco on college campuses, every 6-6 college football team making a bowl game...Not commenting whether or not I disagree with these "trends", just think they all fall under society becoming "softer".

[full conditions]

I'm 60 and have spent my summers guiding rafts on southeastern rivers since the late 70's and the kids we get nowadays are every bit as tough as any we got thirty or forty years ago. They put in 8-10 hours pushing rubber down whitewater rivers and party all night and show up for work the next day on time ready to work. I mostly like this generation very much - great bunch of kids - savvy, smart, and funny. If I have one negative observation I'd say they have incredibly short attention spans and getting them to go two hours without staring at their phones is like watching a junkie try to get thru Thanksgiving dinner.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I’ll be honest, I’m happy society has become softer because historically speaking, our species has really been a bunch of dicks.

[Photodog]

We will have to become tougher as we age because it is very expensive to get care and help. People who have had children see them move away seeking better jobs. Families spread out across the country. The society as a whole ignores the needs of the elderly as they become widowed and fixed income fails to meet expenses. This applies to even the healthy ones. Getting old is not for sissies is right. Better not sit around inside watching TV and eating junk food. Better stay hardy enjoying the outdoors so you have a chance to die with dignity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Seatbelt]

I'm 60 and have spent my summers guiding rafts on southeastern rivers since the late 70's and the kids we get nowadays are every bit as tough as any we got thirty or forty years ago. They put in 8-10 hours pushing rubber down whitewater rivers and party all night and show up for work the next day on time ready to work. I mostly like this generation very much - great bunch of kids - savvy, smart, and funny. If I have one negative observation I'd say they have incredibly short attention spans and getting them to go two hours without staring at their phones is like watching a junkie try to get thru Thanksgiving dinner.
You got any extra kids you can send up my way? Around here they can't get to work on time, don't want to put it in 8 hours (forget overtime) and have a very limited amount of stamina for their age.

[stephanD]

I’ll be honest, I’m happy society has become softer because historically speaking, our species has really been a bunch of dicks.
We are still a bunch of dicks, only softer...:D

[Leo L.]

https://www.amazon.de/Long-Walk-True-Story-Freedom/dp/149302261X
Not sure if the story sticks straight to the truth, but I think I wouldn't have survived more than 24hrs.
So yes, we became softer. I don't see any problem in this.

[imscotty]

https://www.amazon.de/Long-Walk-True-Story-Freedom/dp/149302261X
Not sure if the story sticks straight to the truth, but I think I wouldn't have survived more than 24hrs.
So yes, we became softer. I don't see any problem in this.

I enjoyed that book. It was made into a movie called 'The Way Back'

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_way_back

[Another Kevin]

"Becoming softer" is something that parents lament of their kids' generation.

Parents work hard to make sure that their kids have it easier than they did - and then resent the kids for it.

Whether the kids have it any easier is debatable. The kids have a different set of problems. There's always a different set of problems. I'm glad that I'm not in my twenties nowadays, struggling under a crippling burden of student debt, unaffordable housing, and work available only in the gig economy.

And - well, I'm glad that I wasn't born much earlier. 1950's antibiotics saved my hearing - and I have nearly-deaf cousins who are only a little older, who had the same sort of infection. God knows what diseases I escaped in 1960's immunization campaigns - certainly, all the kids knew grownups who'd been damaged by paralytic polio. Measles damn near killed me. 1990's surgical technique definitely saved my life - which was quite touch-and-go, even the surgeons weren't all that optimistic. 2010's surgical technique has saved my vision - and I had an auntie who went blind from the same condition in the 1970's with nothing to be done for it. I wouldn't have been tougher if I'd been born thirty years earlier and been part of the Greatest Generation. I'd have been dead.

Kids are always disrespectful to grownups - because it's impossible to give the respect that the elders think they're entitled to and still retain any personal autonomy.

And for all the complaining I hear, I can't help remembering one nice group of college kids that I met on the trail. The guy who'd dragged his friends along said to me, "Wow, I think it's great that you're doing this at your age. My parents must be ten years younger, and I can't them to do anything!. Yeah, I wanted to slap him. :) But he was being nice, as best he knew how. (I gave the kids a lift to their car - they'd made a wrong turn and came out at the wrong trailhead, with a 5-mile roadwalk to get back to where they wanted to be.)

Anyway, those kids were doing a section of Devil's Path in the Catskills. You can't be entirely soft and take on that hike. It's an infamously tough trail.

[Traffic Jam]

I'm 60 and have spent my summers guiding rafts on southeastern rivers since the late 70's and the kids we get nowadays are every bit as tough as any we got thirty or forty years ago. They put in 8-10 hours pushing rubber down whitewater rivers and party all night and show up for work the next day on time ready to work. I mostly like this generation very much - great bunch of kids - savvy, smart, and funny. If I have one negative observation I'd say they have incredibly short attention spans and getting them to go two hours without staring at their phones is like watching a junkie try to get thru Thanksgiving dinner.
Nice! Totally agree.

Except for one thing...there are as many older adults glued to their phones as younger. Sit in a restaurant and observe. They won’t say one word to each other during an entire meal! Among my kids’ peers (early 20’s to 30) I’ve seen a trend that they are becoming more conscious of cell phone use when out with others.

What I see is a generation that is more socially and politically engaged, more accepting of diversity, has to work harder for less opportunities, and has to shoulder more financial burdens than my generation.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I often have to listen to some of my coworkers complaining about their "entitled millennial" children - and most times simply proving the old adage, "The nut doesn't fall far from the tree."

[fiddlehead]

Electricity changed the world.
And nylon (and since then cuban) changed hiking. (and trail runners)
and now cell phones.
I believe if you prefer, you can still find places that have people without electricity, cell phones or trail runners, and they are much hardier than I. (but they probably have nylon)
Back in the 60's , we hiked in jeans and used cotton sleeping bags with heavy boots and framed packs. we thought we were tough. But could only do 10-12 mile days.
I doubt there are many from even back then who could beat Karel Sabbe's time.

[Odd Man Out]

There was much whining on our local Facebook Community group page yesterday about the fact that scools were not cancelled due to extreme cold when the overnight temps dipped to a few deg below zero.

[Leo L.]

...
I believe if you prefer, you can still find places that have people without electricity, cell phones or trail runners, and they are much hardier than I.
...

You know better from own experience than me, I had one such encounter two years ago:

We had been on a trip to some remote desert mountains and had the obligatory guide with us.
The one we've got assigned didn't speak anything (we later found out that he was deaf), he was a chubby elderly guy carrying a torn kid's backpack, carrying an old sleepingbag roll in hands, wearing sandals.
Note: We were going to hike up a difficult mountain, were expecting some rock climbing, and intended to stay up for the night and come down the other side.
We were carrying all our modern gear, including ropes&harness.

The guy kept pace up the mountain just fine, finding the way by himself (we never got to know if he ever had been up there before - guess not).
When we came to the climbing part, I (being a former rock climber) hesistated and as there was no point to belay off was a bit too scared to continue.
The chubby old guy took off his sandals, threw them up atop the rocks, and climbed up the step, his backpack and bag roll dangling off his shoulders.
Whow. We managed to follow.
In the evening we reached the corrie before the summit where we intended to spend the night.
There was only little wood to be found, so we had just a small cooking fire and prepared for the night.
My friend and me found a sandy spot each, spread out our pads and bags, and crept into the bags as it had become really chilly.
I used my Thermarest Pro Lite+, Exped 500g down bag, doubled up with my down jacket, put on all layers, hat and balaclava, etc. - and still was not really warm.
The old guy took a flat-ish spot on the rocky slope, prepared it a little bit by taking away the bigger pointy stones, unrolled his bag (it was an old flimsy sythetic bag - and he had no pad), lay flat on his back, closed the eyes and did not do any move for the whole night.
We seriously belived he was dead, could not belive he could have any sleep or even survive under these harsh conditions.

Next day, he opened his eyes, started making a fire for morning tea, and life continued like nothing special had hapened.

[Traveler]

There was much whining on our local Facebook Community group page yesterday about the fact that scools were not cancelled due to extreme cold when the overnight temps dipped to a few deg below zero.

Apparently necessary for the community, but does not, in and of itself, denote lack of "toughness", it only reflects the decisions public officials have to make in a litigious society. I've known people who can fix a clutch on a muddy corduroy road in mid-winter but have trouble using a cell phone. Does that mean they are/aren't tough, stupid, or just have different skill sets and related experience. Taking someone who has never left the city and place them in a wilderness environment with a hatchet and a knife will probably not fare all that well unless someone comes along to help educate them and develop some skills. Conversely, taking someone living in the wilderness and place them in an urban environment with a cell phone and pen will probably not fare well either, until someone comes along to help educate them and they can develop skills specific to that environment.

Though people had tougher lives in 1880 America, had they the same technological, medical, educational, and economic advances Americans have today, would they be any different than we are as a society today? We are still the same species, which will exploit whatever resources we can to survive.

[full conditions]

Nice! Totally agree.

Except for one thing...there are as many older adults glued to their phones as younger. Sit in a restaurant and observe. They won’t say one word to each other during an entire meal! Among my kids’ peers (early 20’s to 30) I’ve seen a trend that they are becoming more conscious of cell phone use when out with others.

What I see is a generation that is more socially and politically engaged, more accepting of diversity, has to work harder for less opportunities, and has to shoulder more financial burdens than my generation.
Excellent point. I used to take public school teachers up to the US Holocaust Museum for a week of study. One of the highlights of the week was an address by an Auschwitz survivor named Letti - an amazingly compelling story - and during her recitation (less than an hour) I saw no less than eight or nine of those teachers women in their 30's and 40's) on their smart phones. They just couldn't stop themselves.

[BillyGr]

There was much whining on our local Facebook Community group page yesterday about the fact that scools were not cancelled due to extreme cold when the overnight temps dipped to a few deg below zero.

They should tell everyone they go by the Alaska rules - no cancellation of school until it hits -50 (which, according to the well known sled dog racer that said this does happen generally a couple times per year).

[perdidochas]

Nice! Totally agree.

Except for one thing...there are as many older adults glued to their phones as younger. Sit in a restaurant and observe. They won’t say one word to each other during an entire meal! Among my kids’ peers (early 20’s to 30) I’ve seen a trend that they are becoming more conscious of cell phone use when out with others.

What I see is a generation that is more socially and politically engaged, more accepting of diversity, has to work harder for less opportunities, and has to shoulder more financial burdens than my generation.

My observations exactly. In fact, it's getting to the point where I see more older people on their phone during dinner than the youngsters.

Personally, I have respect for the upcoming generations. I think they will be able to step up to whatever challenge arises, they just haven't been forced to step up yet.

[RockDoc]

Decrease in thru success corresponds with growth in obesity, which began around 1980.

[scope]

Softer yes. Better yes, though because we are "softer", we don't do things done previously as well as they were done before. For instance, we have better gear, but this mostly allows our insights and natural instincts to wane. All the while, we're developing new insights and instincts that will benefit us in future endeavors. That's the nature of our evolution. Doesn't mean we might not suffer a bit when we try to do old things with our diminished skills.

[evyck da fleet]

Obesity statistics would say yes.

Would I rather drive five minutes to the store to buy a steak, push a button on my grill and have dinner in twenty minutes as opposed to track down a deer, kill it, clean it, etc yes

But I think more people are working longer hours, taking less vacation and spending more time indoors because of work and the disparity in wages for the working class and executives.

Now with the tech advances since the early 90s I was able to complete a thru which I wouldn’t have done back then. Does that make current me more or less soft than younger me?

[Furlough]

We are having a problem in the Army bringing in fit and healthy recruits. This issue has been studied and one of the past studies reported some interesting trends:
Inactivity and obesity have also become increasingly burdensome for the US Department of Defense (DoD).12 (https://journals.lww.com/jphmp/Fulltext/2019/01000/Which_US_States_Pose_the_Greatest_Threats_to.15.as px#R12-15) Physical inactivity and obesity have been shown to negatively impact military readiness, and therefore national security, in 2 important ways. First, the candidate pool of US military recruits is dwindling. It is estimated that 27% of Americans 17 to 24 years old are too overweight to qualify for military service, with obesity being the second highest disqualifying medical condition between 2010 and 2014.13 (https://journals.lww.com/jphmp/Fulltext/2019/01000/Which_US_States_Pose_the_Greatest_Threats_to.15.as px#R13-15) Furthermore, upon entering basic training, 47% of males and 59% of females failed the Army's entry-level physical fitness test in 2010.12 (https://journals.lww.com/jphmp/Fulltext/2019/01000/Which_US_States_Pose_the_Greatest_Threats_to.15.as px#R12-15) Second, among individuals who do meet basic requirements for military service, those with lower PA and/or physical fitness levels prior to military service are at increased risk for sustaining a training-related injury (TRI) during basic combat training.14 (https://journals.lww.com/jphmp/Fulltext/2019/01000/Which_US_States_Pose_the_Greatest_Threats_to.15.as px#R14-15) Study authorBornstein, Daniel B., PhD; Grieve, George L., MS; Clennin, Morgan N., MS; McLain, Alexander C., PhD; Whitsel, Laurie P., PhD; Beets, Michael W., PhD; Hauret, Keith G., MSPH; Jones, Bruce H., MD; Sarzynski, Mark A., PhD

[Gambit McCrae]

We are having a problem in the Army bringing in fit and healthy recruits. This issue has been studied and one of the past studies reported some interesting trends:
Inactivity and obesity have also become increasingly burdensome for the US Department of Defense (DoD).12 (https://journals.lww.com/jphmp/Fulltext/2019/01000/Which_US_States_Pose_the_Greatest_Threats_to.15.as px#R12-15) Physical inactivity and obesity have been shown to negatively impact military readiness, and therefore national security, in 2 important ways. First, the candidate pool of US military recruits is dwindling. It is estimated that 27% of Americans 17 to 24 years old are too overweight to qualify for military service, with obesity being the second highest disqualifying medical condition between 2010 and 2014.13 (https://journals.lww.com/jphmp/Fulltext/2019/01000/Which_US_States_Pose_the_Greatest_Threats_to.15.as px#R13-15) Furthermore, upon entering basic training, 47% of males and 59% of females failed the Army's entry-level physical fitness test in 2010.12 (https://journals.lww.com/jphmp/Fulltext/2019/01000/Which_US_States_Pose_the_Greatest_Threats_to.15.as px#R12-15) Second, among individuals who do meet basic requirements for military service, those with lower PA and/or physical fitness levels prior to military service are at increased risk for sustaining a training-related injury (TRI) during basic combat training.14 (https://journals.lww.com/jphmp/Fulltext/2019/01000/Which_US_States_Pose_the_Greatest_Threats_to.15.as px#R14-15) Study authorBornstein, Daniel B., PhD; Grieve, George L., MS; Clennin, Morgan N., MS; McLain, Alexander C., PhD; Whitsel, Laurie P., PhD; Beets, Michael W., PhD; Hauret, Keith G., MSPH; Jones, Bruce H., MD; Sarzynski, Mark A., PhD




That is very interesting thank you for that information!

[perdidochas]

We are having a problem in the Army bringing in fit and healthy recruits. This issue has been studied and one of the past studies reported some interesting trends:
Inactivity and obesity have also become increasingly burdensome for the US Department of Defense (DoD).12 (https://journals.lww.com/jphmp/Fulltext/2019/01000/Which_US_States_Pose_the_Greatest_Threats_to.15.as px#R12-15) Physical inactivity and obesity have been shown to negatively impact military readiness, and therefore national security, in 2 important ways. First, the candidate pool of US military recruits is dwindling. It is estimated that 27% of Americans 17 to 24 years old are too overweight to qualify for military service, with obesity being the second highest disqualifying medical condition between 2010 and 2014.13 (https://journals.lww.com/jphmp/Fulltext/2019/01000/Which_US_States_Pose_the_Greatest_Threats_to.15.as px#R13-15) Furthermore, upon entering basic training, 47% of males and 59% of females failed the Army's entry-level physical fitness test in 2010.12 (https://journals.lww.com/jphmp/Fulltext/2019/01000/Which_US_States_Pose_the_Greatest_Threats_to.15.as px#R12-15) Second, among individuals who do meet basic requirements for military service, those with lower PA and/or physical fitness levels prior to military service are at increased risk for sustaining a training-related injury (TRI) during basic combat training.14 (https://journals.lww.com/jphmp/Fulltext/2019/01000/Which_US_States_Pose_the_Greatest_Threats_to.15.as px#R14-15) Study authorBornstein, Daniel B., PhD; Grieve, George L., MS; Clennin, Morgan N., MS; McLain, Alexander C., PhD; Whitsel, Laurie P., PhD; Beets, Michael W., PhD; Hauret, Keith G., MSPH; Jones, Bruce H., MD; Sarzynski, Mark A., PhD



A 4 week pre-boot camp for fitness would remedy most of that.

[Furlough]

A 4 week pre-boot camp for fitness would remedy most of that. We added 2 weeks to basic training.

[Sarcasm the elf]

A 4 week pre-boot camp for fitness would remedy most of that.
Sneaker Camp? :D

[KnightErrant]

"Becoming softer" is something that parents lament of their kids' generation.

Parents work hard to make sure that their kids have it easier than they did - and then resent the kids for it.

Whether the kids have it any easier is debatable. The kids have a different set of problems. There's always a different set of problems. I'm glad that I'm not in my twenties nowadays, struggling under a crippling burden of student debt, unaffordable housing, and work available only in the gig economy.

And - well, I'm glad that I wasn't born much earlier. 1950's antibiotics saved my hearing - and I have nearly-deaf cousins who are only a little older, who had the same sort of infection. God knows what diseases I escaped in 1960's immunization campaigns - certainly, all the kids knew grownups who'd been damaged by paralytic polio. Measles damn near killed me. 1990's surgical technique definitely saved my life - which was quite touch-and-go, even the surgeons weren't all that optimistic. 2010's surgical technique has saved my vision - and I had an auntie who went blind from the same condition in the 1970's with nothing to be done for it. I wouldn't have been tougher if I'd been born thirty years earlier and been part of the Greatest Generation. I'd have been dead.

Kids are always disrespectful to grownups - because it's impossible to give the respect that the elders think they're entitled to and still retain any personal autonomy.



This is so spot on!

Just like every class of wise, cultured 15-year-old high school sophomores inevitably looks at the incoming class of obnoxious clueless 14-year-old freshmen and says "I know WE weren't like that", like clockwork every older generation believes the new one is soft and unprepared for the "real world." Personally, I think this is a product of judging our own generation based on ourselves and our friends, while judging the other generations by the worst examples we witness, whether in person or in the media. That's how you assume millennials are all snowflakes who blow all their money on avocado toast, and Gen Z are all phone-addicted zombie children who eat Tide Pods for "likes". Nah. In reality, there are smart, dedicated individuals and lazy idiots in every generation.

I mean, yes, society is constantly changing and facing different problems, and now obesity is an issue of more humans being literally softer, but I think it's appropriate to blame that on society becoming more sedentary and unhealthy food being more available and economical than healthy food, rather than acting like it's some kind of moral failing on the part of lazy young people.
As for a soft society reducing thru-hike completion rates, my registration number at Katahdin Stream compared to HF and Amicalola would suggest that this year, completion rates were quite high, even with all the rain.

[4eyedbuzzard]

"Becoming softer" is something that parents lament of their kids' generation.

Parents work hard to make sure that their kids have it easier than they did - and then resent the kids for it.

Whether the kids have it any easier is debatable. The kids have a different set of problems. There's always a different set of problems. I'm glad that I'm not in my twenties nowadays, struggling under a crippling burden of student debt, unaffordable housing, and work available only in the gig economy.

And - well, I'm glad that I wasn't born much earlier. 1950's antibiotics saved my hearing - and I have nearly-deaf cousins who are only a little older, who had the same sort of infection. God knows what diseases I escaped in 1960's immunization campaigns - certainly, all the kids knew grownups who'd been damaged by paralytic polio. Measles damn near killed me. 1990's surgical technique definitely saved my life - which was quite touch-and-go, even the surgeons weren't all that optimistic. 2010's surgical technique has saved my vision - and I had an auntie who went blind from the same condition in the 1970's with nothing to be done for it. I wouldn't have been tougher if I'd been born thirty years earlier and been part of the Greatest Generation. I'd have been dead.

Kids are always disrespectful to grownups - because it's impossible to give the respect that the elders think they're entitled to and still retain any personal autonomy.

And for all the complaining I hear, I can't help remembering one nice group of college kids that I met on the trail. The guy who'd dragged his friends along said to me, "Wow, I think it's great that you're doing this at your age. My parents must be ten years younger, and I can't them to do anything!. Yeah, I wanted to slap him. :) But he was being nice, as best he knew how. (I gave the kids a lift to their car - they'd made a wrong turn and came out at the wrong trailhead, with a 5-mile roadwalk to get back to where they wanted to be.)

Anyway, those kids were doing a section of Devil's Path in the Catskills. You can't be entirely soft and take on that hike. It's an infamously tough trail.


This is so spot on!

Just like every class of wise, cultured 15-year-old high school sophomores inevitably looks at the incoming class of obnoxious clueless 14-year-old freshmen and says "I know WE weren't like that", like clockwork every older generation believes the new one is soft and unprepared for the "real world." Personally, I think this is a product of judging our own generation based on ourselves and our friends, while judging the other generations by the worst examples we witness, whether in person or in the media. That's how you assume millennials are all snowflakes who blow all their money on avocado toast, and Gen Z are all phone-addicted zombie children who eat Tide Pods for "likes". Nah. In reality, there are smart, dedicated individuals and lazy idiots in every generation.

I mean, yes, society is constantly changing and facing different problems, and now obesity is an issue of more humans being literally softer, but I think it's appropriate to blame that on society becoming more sedentary and unhealthy food being more available and economical than healthy food, rather than acting like it's some kind of moral failing on the part of lazy young people.
As for a soft society reducing thru-hike completion rates, my registration number at Katahdin Stream compared to HF and Amicalola would suggest that this year, completion rates were quite high, even with all the rain.

Great posts!

Today's hikers are SO soft. Back in my day we carried 50 lb packs, used maps and compass, forded the Kennebec, and trail magic was unexpected . . . :rolleyes:

All creatures big and small try to maximize their efficiency. Living organisms seek to achieve the greatest benefit for the least amount of effort. We humans are pretty sophisticated as viewed within the hierarchy of organisms, and we have intellectual and emotional desires that are above those of animals simply focusing on physical survival, but we still yield to the concept of efficiency to a large degree. In "first world" countries, machinery and automation have greatly reduced the physical effort required in most jobs, and outright eliminated many physical labor jobs altogether. 70 years ago blue collar and farm labor made up the largest employment sector in the US. Not any more. Machinery and automation have greatly reduced the manpower requirements in farming and manufacturing. Less expensive labor moved labor intensive manufacturing offshore. In the early 20th century 40% of the population was engaged in farming. By the end of the century it had dropped to 2%. White collar jobs rose from 18% to 60% during this same period. As a society, we now push pencils (or more accurately computer keys) instead of wheelbarrows. Materialistically, almost everyone became wealthier, and softer. And life moved faster. From communication to microwave ovens, we strove for instant gratification in almost every endeavor - because life is short. We counteract the negative physical complications of that to some degree with gyms and health clubs and a passion for fitness with many, but overall we are physically softer as a society, and more impatient. It's a double-edged sword. We live longer, and most of us are healthier in many ways, but a lot of physical stress has been replaced by mental and emotional stress. Hence the rise of health clubs, the greater visibility of mental and emotional health, and a whole new set of modern problems, like attention span in a world that moves at the speed of light. We create the environment that the younger generation is born into - and then complain when they live "efficiently" within its structure. Just as we did within the environment we experienced.

Physically, society has become softer in some ways. But it's not a matter of willpower alone. It's just nature's efficiency taking its course. And when it comes to individuals, you can't make a valid judgement based upon what average trends are. Would we be any different if we were born into the same generation?

[GolfHiker]

I really don’t like winter. But I really do enjoy a good Sat. afternoon read of 67 responses to an interesting post. I love seeing both (all sides) of a great topic, which this is. Some of you all really hit the nail on the head with your varied responses. I’ve been hiking the AT since 1980, so I’ve seen a good bit of change through the years. On my 2016/17 thru in two, it was so obvious that everyone, meaning all age groups, were doing things differently than in prior years. Specifically, the electronics, and the use of hostels, and planned slackpacking. A huge proliferation of hostels meant more frequent stops, easier accommodations ( vs. tent &/or shelters), more rest days and time off, and a lot of slackpacking options, all that. Does that make a thru easier than the past, yes, maybe. Does that make it wrong, no. The mountains are still high and rugged, the miles still need to be covered, bad weather is still bad weather.

I know this topic is broad, relating to our beloved AT, generational norms and everything in between. Hey, at least no one has brought up, religion, politics or sports.

Nuff said.

[LittleRock]

One day when I was in high school my brother and I were slowly making our way down a mountain trail (really a boulder scramble with blazes to mark the way) near our home, when a guy who looked to be in his 70's went flying past us, hopping from rock to rock, with his hands clasped together behind his back, whistling a tune to himself.

At that moment we both felt really soft.

[Dogwood]

Nostalgia about the future is even more dangerous.
Yup. Yup....