View Full Version : Vermont trip Feb. Hike, ski
Hi y'all long time lurker first time post. I've retrieved a lot of good info from you fine folks, but now I could really use some advice on a couple things. Leave Feb. 15 drive to killington Vermont leave my car at the inn get shuttled up to 103? I think 20 miles then I'll have sat, sun,mon to hike back to the inn for 2 days Tues my birthday will be skiing killington woohoo. So what is that part of trail like? I have AWOL map cell service? Another concern is a lot of blowing snow and loosing the trail. Just a little nervous yes I'll be solo
That's an easy overnight in the summer. Winter will depend entirely on conditions. You may have a few feet of consolidated snow, with a well-trodden trail to follow, or you may have 6 feet of untracked snow and a trail that is impossible to follow, or anything in between all at the same time within a mile. The AT/LT is not maintained for winter travel. You will often find the peaks have a packed trail from road to summit, but following the trail between those travelled areas is an entirely different story.
I went up to the Killington area years ago on President's day weekend to go xcross skiing. It rained on the drive up to VT and by the time we got there there was no snow at all. Spent the weekend eating and hiking.
Slo-go'en
01-25-2019, 00:53
Without getting into the gory details, that will be a difficult hike. The section north of Sherburne pass is easier. Even so, your looking at 30-40 hours of hiking to do those 20 miles. When your breaking trail and trying to figure out exactly where the trail is and getting lost half the time, progress is very slow. Some of the coldest air all winter often arrives mid February, you need to be ready for temps as low as -20.
Winter hiking in Vermont tends to be up a side trail to a shelter for the night or up to a summit and back. There is a cross country ski trail called the Catamount trial, which parallels the Long trail but lower down and that is the trial people used for long distance travel in the winter.
Thank you'll, holy chap that sounds scary I'm ready ! But seriously what about guthooks, never had to use would that keep me on track? As far as gear and cold I think I'm prepared I went last weekend to do a shakedown hike with new winter gear. Hiked from bears den hostel up to ravens rock micro spikes worked awesome never slipped sluggish up solid ice back had 18 hrs. Of cold rain the sun. 20-30 mph. Winds mon. Morning 7 degrees-15 wind chill yeah cold pooping that morning. So best advice watch weather go from there?
Was also hoping this would go to general for more response thanks
Thank you'll, holy chap that sounds scary I'm ready ! But seriously what about guthooks, never had to use would that keep me on track? As far as gear and cold I think I'm prepared I went last weekend to do a shakedown hike with new winter gear. Hiked from bears den hostel up to ravens rock micro spikes worked awesome never slipped sluggish up solid ice back had 18 hrs. Of cold rain the sun. 20-30 mph. Winds mon. Morning 7 degrees-15 wind chill yeah cold pooping that morning. So best advice watch weather go from there?
that hike you just did and the hike you're planning have a high percentage of being absolutely nothing alike.
Yes that was just to get out and try my new kathoola, spikes,snow shoes,down booties,down hood, which all performed great 😁. My jetboil barely performed but managed and water freezing so I ordered a emberlit I'll also have esbit and ordered a winter nalgene and cozy from 40 below. So if given a weather opportunity . Don't have my map I'm at work but was thinking Saturday get dropped off do 7 miles, sun.up and over 3,oooo ft. 10miles then Monday 3 miles to the inn
It all depends on the weather and snow conditions. As long as you're smart enough to know when turning around is the right choice, you can have a blast fun. I don't think you'll have a "no snow" year like soilman did.
And I suppose that is what I would have to do cause there is no road crossing or bail out points correct?
I would also welcome anybody wanting to join me .
4eyedbuzzard
01-25-2019, 20:28
Yes that was just to get out and try my new kathoola, spikes,snow shoes,down booties,down hood, which all performed great . My jetboil barely performed but managed and water freezing so I ordered a emberlit I'll also have esbit and ordered a winter nalgene and cozy from 40 below. So if given a weather opportunity . Don't have my map I'm at work but was thinking Saturday get dropped off do 7 miles, sun.up and over 3,oooo ft. 10miles then Monday 3 miles to the innEsbit is really inefficient in winter. It takes a long time to boil under normal conditions. In cold weather the heat output has a hard time keeping up with the heat loss. Try keeping your stove canister warm - against your body and under an insulating layer right up until you use it. Sleep with your canister at night. You can also use a water bath (small aluminum foil pie plate or shallow plastic bowl or similar with a little water in it) to counteract the rapid fuel cooling when the stove is running. It will keep the gas mix above 32° which is important to keep the fuel in the canister vaporizing properly, especially if the fuel you are using has any n-butane in it. Otherwise the propane and then isobutane portion vaporizes off faster and you are left with mostly n-butane which doesn't vaporize well below 40°F. For that reason (n-butane) it's best to stick with canisters that don't use any n-butane in them - Jetboil, Olicamp, Snow Peak, or MSR canisters come to mind (and perhaps some others) They are iso-butane/propane mixes in around the 20 - 25% propane range. Read the labels. All fuels aren't created equally.
And I suppose that is what I would have to do cause there is no road crossing or bail out points correct?
There are actually plenty of bailouts between Rte. 103 and Gov. Clement shelter. I think the touchiest part will be from there to Killington - after that, there's a real good chance that the trail will be packed to Rte. 4
Who knows? Try it. Not trying to be discouraging, just realistic about winter in Northern New England.
Four eyed, thank you for that info about canisters I was aware of keeping them warm and why wasn't aware of the keeping them in water while in use uh makes since. Dead eye thank you very much for your responses yeah a closer examination of my map shows several gravel roads and possible bailouts. And your answers are why I'm here asking I'm a lil nervous about this trip so I need to know realistically what i'm getting my self into.
Slo-go'en
01-26-2019, 17:51
Those gravel roads aren't maintained for winter travel, so you'd still have a long walk out. There might be snowmobile traffic on them, so maybe you could hitch a ride.
That area was hit hard by Hurricane Irene. It's been a while, but the trail has not fully recovered. The trail along Killington is in really bad shape and will be hard to follow in winter conditions. The climb out of Clarendon is steeply up a boulder filled ravine. It will be full up with snow, making it a challenging climb. There are also several brook crossings which can be difficult in deep snow. Then with that big rain we just got, there is probably wash outs. To say nothing of the down trees. Several big, windy, wet snow slush storms have hit Vermont and NH this winter. Bring a chainsaw.
Yes, Guthook can help you stay on the trail - or find it again, but you can't use it constantly and cell phone batteries run down quick in the cold.
For you first hike in the winter in Vermont, just do a couple of day hikes. That will give you an idea of what your getting into.
Damn slo-go'en,, that sounds like a bit more then I bargain for. Perhaps I'll rethink this adventure. So far I've hiked middle of pa. Down to Tennessee, Damascus aprox 800 miles section hiking. So not a total novice but that sounds not good at all . What do think about parking at 103 and traversing up to Clarendon shelter 1mile for Saturday night then drive to rutland sun. And park then traverse up to tucker Johnson shelter also 1 mile . Or I'm open for suggestions . 1 where a chainsaws not needed .
Damn slo-go'en,, that sounds like a bit more then I bargain for. Perhaps I'll rethink this adventure. So far I've hiked middle of pa. Down to Tennessee, Damascus aprox 800 miles section hiking. So not a total novice but that sounds not good at all . What do think about parking at 103 and traversing up to Clarendon shelter 1mile for Saturday night then drive to rutland sun. And park then traverse up to tucker Johnson shelter also 1 mile . Or I'm open for suggestions . 1 where a chainsaws not needed .
Slo' is the person i often refer to as our resident doomsayer. seems like no matter what someone proposes doing hes here to point out all the potential pitfalls. they are generally accurate if perhaps overstated.
i think that may be the case here again. the truth is probably somewhere between your idea of what you're planning to do and Slo's worst case scenario description.
or we could have a freakishly warm winter from now until your trip and there will barely be any snow. who knows.
but like i said earlier "i went hiking in northern VA and tested out my microspikes" really has no real relevance to what you're now planning. do you have snow shoes?
Slo' is the person i often refer to as our resident doomsayer. seems like no matter what someone proposes doing hes here to point out all the potential pitfalls. they are generally accurate if perhaps overstated.
i think that may be the case here again. the truth is probably somewhere between your idea of what you're planning to do and Slo's worst case scenario description.
or we could have a freakishly warm winter from now until your trip and there will barely be any snow. who knows.
but like i said earlier "i went hiking in northern VA and tested out my microspikes" really has no real relevance to what you're now planning. do you have snow shoes?
re-read your earlier post and see that you do.... but was there any deep snow on your test hike?
Slo-go'en
01-26-2019, 20:16
Like I said, getting to Clarendon would be real struggle getting up that ravine. It's good climb in the summer, could actually be an ice climb right now.
Tucker Johnson no longer exists. It burnt down years ago, but there is tenting there. The Long Trail is noted for it's very steep and rocky climbs at paved road crossings, carved out by the glaciers. The north side is usually the steepest. Just can't get away from them. Most shelters are located where they are hard to get to to keep the riff raft out. Access roads which are not state highways are closed for the winter. It's a tough place to do any winter hiking/camping. They rather you go skiing.
Don't know what to suggest, can't think of any place I'd try to get to in the middle of February. Getting to the Bromley shelter north of RT11 might be the best bet. That's one of the few places where there isn't a big climb from the road to get to. Since that's at a ski area, backcountry snowboarders might make tracks to there.
Slo-go'en
01-26-2019, 20:26
i think that may be the case here again. the truth is probably somewhere between your idea of what you're planning to do and Slo's worst case scenario description.
Maybe but it's been a harsh winter so far and doesn't look like it will get much better in the next few weeks. If two days above freezing with 2" of rain was our January thaw, we're in trouble. Trails in Vermont don't get nearly the traffic the Whites do in the winter. Vermont's all about skiing. I'd do a cross country ski trip.
Tdoczi, no unfortunately there wasn't enough snow stupid cold rain so no I've no experience with them except in backyard in about 6" flat. I bought the evos, with the flotation add ons, very eager to get out there and try them out
Slo, I don't mind a ice climb sounds fun .but I like to think I can hike with just about anything under almost any condition for a mile maybe not a white out blizzard. Crazy not stupid thanks much for your responses.
The approaching outbreak of Arctic Air should provide a good test of your sleep system at home.
Good luck and be safe!
Wayne
The approaching outbreak of Arctic Air should provide a good test of your sleep system at home.
Good luck and be safe!
Wayne
I'm pretty confident in my sleep system last weekend I was out experienced 7 degrees and 20-30 mph. -15 wind chill. I have the termarest winter pad cant think of the name if need be I'll have z-lite with me as well, 0 degree down quilt by hammock gear with 4 oz.. of extra goodness, down booties,down hoodie,. I don't have a winter tent ,rei half dome 2 so what I do is pile snow at the bottom of the rain fly helps keep wind out and maybe a lil warmer. I want a tent like tippi walter,the hillenburg one of these days maybe next year.
Esbit is really inefficient in winter. It takes a long time to boil under normal conditions. In cold weather the heat output has a hard time keeping up with the heat loss. Try keeping your stove canister warm - against your body and under an insulating layer right up until you use it. Sleep with your canister at night. You can also use a water bath (small aluminum foil pie plate or shallow plastic bowl or similar with a little water in it) to counteract the rapid fuel cooling when the stove is running. It will keep the gas mix above 32° which is important to keep the fuel in the canister vaporizing properly, especially if the fuel you are using has any n-butane in it. Otherwise the propane and then isobutane portion vaporizes off faster and you are left with mostly n-butane which doesn't vaporize well below 40°F. For that reason (n-butane) it's best to stick with canisters that don't use any n-butane in them - Jetboil, Olicamp, Snow Peak, or MSR canisters come to mind (and perhaps some others) They are iso-butane/propane mixes in around the 20 - 25% propane range. Read the labels. All fuels aren't created equally.
Would taping a hand warmer to the bottom help the bottom of the canister? When stored and in use? I seen master shug use his alky stoves at sub zero by keeping alcohol warm. I didn't realize ezbit was so weak.
Maybe but it's been a harsh winter so far and doesn't look like it will get much better in the next few weeks. If two days above freezing with 2" of rain was our January thaw, we're in trouble. Trails in Vermont don't get nearly the traffic the Whites do in the winter. Vermont's all about skiing. I'd do a cross country ski trip.
I've never been cross country skiing. I like down hill but I haven't done that in years either should come right back to me, I hope. I'm taking everybody's response and watching the weather I'll adjust my plans as need be I really appreciate it, please if anyone has anything to add . So maybe next year I'll plan something for the whites? Well going to work 7 days this week gotta pay for all this new winter gear.
4eyedbuzzard
01-27-2019, 09:54
Would taping a hand warmer to the bottom help the bottom of the canister? When stored and in use? I seen master shug use his alky stoves at sub zero by keeping alcohol warm. I didn't realize ezbit was so weak.Lots of videos out there on canister stove use in cold weather - easier to watch a few than describing in words - https://www.google.com/search?q=cold+weather+isobutane+stove+use&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS795US796&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM4ozzjY7gAhVIQq0KHbjiBPAQ_AUIESgE&biw=1920&bih=938
It’s all been said before at WhiteBlaze. The Moulder Strip!
https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/115424-How-low-will-a-cannister-go!
Wayne
Hikingjim
01-27-2019, 12:15
103 to Inn at Long Trail isn't a bad option if you assess conditions properly as you go. The first 6 or 7 miles to gov clement aren't too hard, and you'll know by then whether or not you're good to continue. Then if it's no issue up to the Killington side trail..... it will be smooth sailing on the way down to finish the hike
Your stretch from Gov Clement to the top has some challenging parts and will be the hardest stretch by far, and as someone mentioned above, it's not nearly as well used so there's a good chance you'll break trail
Slo-go'en
01-27-2019, 16:46
There's a good chance you'll have to break trail the whole way. It's currently snowing heavly at Killington, a bigger storm is expected mid week and who knows what's to follow in the next 2 weeks. There's already 3-4 feet on the ground and deeper drifts, so there will be a lot of snow to plow through and that takes serious work. BTW, blazes are painted on trees about 5-6 feet off the ground. Seeing a white blaze on a tree when there is 4-5 feet of snow on the ground? Not easy. Finding your way through an open, hardwood forest when every direction looks the same? Hope the battery in your phone lasts a long time. BTW, if you do get in trouble (and there are a lot of ways that can happen), Vermont makes you pay for rescues.
Okay, here's another idea. Since your staying at the Inn anyway, do the AT/old AT loop to Pico camp. There's a good chance that route will be broken out or at least has had enough traffic to define the path and give it a solid base. Pico camp is a neat old fully enclosed cabin, making it a better place to stay then an open face shelter. The trail is gradual and there aren't any significant obstacles to try and get through.
Killington also offers snowshoeing trails, but you have to pay for it unless you have a lift ticket, which I guess you will have anyway.
It’s all been said before at WhiteBlaze. The Moulder Strip!
https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/115424-How-low-will-a-cannister-go!
Wayne
Great links thanks much, so yeah I can attach toe warmers to the bottom of the canister and make a cozy out of some reflectex,.cool love this stuff 🤔. Still waiting for my emberlit stove I'll be taking as well had to get the titanium as the stainless was sold out.
103 to Inn at Long Trail isn't a bad option if you assess conditions properly as you go. The first 6 or 7 miles to gov clement aren't too hard, and you'll know by then whether or not you're good to continue. Then if it's no issue up to the Killington side trail..... it will be smooth sailing on the way down to finish the hike
Your stretch from Gov Clement to the top has some challenging parts and will be the hardest stretch by far, and as someone mentioned above, it's not nearly as well used so there's a good chance you'll break trail
Yes that was my original plan weather permitting 7 miles Saturday I'll be tired from driving all night from Harper's ferry, 103 to Gov. Clement, 2nd. Day either pico camp or churchill Scott, then that would be 4-6 miles mon. Just in time to check into the inn ..
There's a good chance you'll have to break trail the whole way. It's currently snowing heavly at Killington, a bigger storm is expected mid week and who knows what's to follow in the next 2 weeks. There's already 3-4 feet on the ground and deeper drifts, so there will be a lot of snow to plow through and that takes serious work. BTW, blazes are painted on trees about 5-6 feet off the ground. Seeing a white blaze on a tree when there is 4-5 feet of snow on the ground? Not easy. Finding your way through an open, hardwood forest when every direction looks the same? Hope the battery in your phone lasts a long time. BTW, if you do get in trouble (and there are a lot of ways that can happen), Vermont makes you pay for rescues.
Okay, here's another idea. Since your staying at the Inn anyway, do the AT/old AT loop to Pico camp. There's a good chance that route will be broken out or at least has had enough traffic to define the path and give it a solid base. Pico camp is a neat old fully enclosed cabin, making it a better place to stay then an open face shelter. The trail is gradual and there aren't any significant obstacles to try and get through.
Killington also offers snowshoeing trails, but you have to pay for it unless you have a lift ticket, which I guess you will have anyway.
Thanks yes that has been my biggest concern is losing trail because of the white blazes get lost. And I agree that guthooks is going to be hard to use if it's really cold . Time to invest in a garmen,, inreach perhaps. As far as pico,, camp I see sherburne pass trail out of the inn and I see the AT. Up to pico, but what makes it a loop sherborne? I'm missing something? That's definitely a possibility I could leave out of the inn Saturday morning after a big breakfast I could go north or south as far as want and just do a up and back. As far as calling for help I will not get my self in that deep my friend........
Slo-go'en
01-27-2019, 19:58
Thanks yes that has been my biggest concern is losing trail because of the white blazes get lost. And I agree that guthooks is going to be hard to use if it's really cold . Time to invest in a garmen,, inreach perhaps. As far as pico,, camp I see sherburne pass trail out of the inn and I see the AT. Up to pico, but what makes it a loop sherborne? I'm missing something? That's definitely a possibility I could leave out of the inn Saturday morning after a big breakfast I could go north or south as far as want and just do a up and back. As far as calling for help I will not get my self in that deep my friend........
Well, I hope you don't get in that deep, but if you fall into a spruce trap and end up in a hole over your head, that can be a problem. What looks like a little tree sticking up out of the ground can be just the top of a 15 foot tree!
Anyway, the old trail and the new trail diverge a bit down the hill from Cooper lodge (which skiers generally trash with beer cans and wine bottles)
.
The old trail goes north, directly to Sherborne pass and goes by the Pico camp cabin. The new trail goes to the north east, on the west side of the ridge, out on RT 4 some 2.5 miles from the Inn. The new trail continues across the highway and then climbs steeply back up to Deer Leap to connect to the original trail.
The reason for this reroute was to put the trail on protected land, since from that junction to the pass via the old route is on private land, owned by the Pico ski resort. Not that they would ever develop in that area or close access to the trail, so it was sort of a pointless reroute.
The whole loop is only about 10 miles, but it would be a good overnighter. If there was a recent snow and your the first out there, 1/2 mile an hour is a good pace.
I don't have a winter tent ,rei half dome 2 so what I do is pile snow at the bottom of the rain fly helps keep wind out and maybe a lil warmer. I want a tent like tippi walter,the hillenburg one of these days maybe next year.
Careful you don't suffocate yourself by piling on the snow - be sure there's plenty of fresh air flow. I've used the half dome in winter, it's fine. I may be paranoid about tent ventilation in winter, but I'm here!
Careful you don't suffocate yourself by piling on the snow - be sure there's plenty of fresh air flow. I've used the half dome in winter, it's fine. I may be paranoid about tent ventilation in winter, but I'm here!
Yeah thanks for that will do, I'll leave a gap at the bottom of the fly for vaper/ moisture escape as well works for keeping a lot of wind out. I have a lot of nights in that tent never leaked and been in some pretty serious winds been a great tent. I'll be pulling the trigger on a big agnes copper spur here soon about a 4lb. Saving.
Well, I hope you don't get in that deep, but if you fall into a spruce trap and end up in a hole over your head, that can be a problem. What looks like a little tree sticking up out of the ground can be just the top of a 15 foot tree!
Anyway, the old trail and the new trail diverge a bit down the hill from Cooper lodge (which skiers generally trash with beer cans and wine bottles)
.
The old trail goes north, directly to Sherborne pass and goes by the Pico camp cabin. The new trail goes to the north east, on the west side of the ridge, out on RT 4 some 2.5 miles from the Inn. The new trail continues across the highway and then climbs steeply back up to Deer Leap to connect to the original trail.
The reason for this reroute was to put the trail on protected land, since from that junction to the pass via the old route is on private land, owned by the Pico ski resort. Not that they would ever develop in that area or close access to the trail, so it was sort of a pointless reroute.
The whole loop is only about 10 miles, but it would be a good overnighter. If there was a recent snow and your the first out there, 1/2 mile an hour is a good pace.
Thanks again you've been a big help so this loop the blazes are marked higher/ better ?,.and the loop is 10 miles so say 1 way up to pico is 5 miles 1/2 mph = 10 hrs. Of possible hiking just to get up there? Do you have to stay at shelters in Vermont or can I stop and camp anywhere?
Slo-go'en
01-28-2019, 21:20
Thanks again you've been a big help so this loop the blazes are marked higher/ better ?,.and the loop is 10 miles so say 1 way up to pico is 5 miles 1/2 mph = 10 hrs. Of possible hiking just to get up there? Do you have to stay at shelters in Vermont or can I stop and camp anywhere?
I suppose you could stop and camp anywhere, but finding a spot where that is possible could be an issue. Pico camp isn't located at the half way point, it's 2.5 miles from the pass, but 7.5 miles to the where the AT crosses the highway. If the AT part of the loop is packed down nicely when you get there and you can get an early start, go that way to Pico. If you get a late start, go to Pico camp first and do the longer leg the next day.
How long it takes really depends on conditions at the time. 1/2 mile an hour is the worst case, but one you have to be able to deal with.
google <snowshoe hikes in Vermont> and this loop will come up as a suggested hike. One of two in the Killington area.
If your on Facebook, joining the long trail hikers group and GMC page is informative.
Thanks slo,, I might just do that I'll have 2 nights so I could get myself up to pico and camp then take the long way back and camp 2nd. Night somewhere along the way back to the inn on Monday morning to check in for 2 nights. Ya know I've had a very rough last couple of years very hard things to deal with without getting into the "gory details " so I plan this trip to beat the blues. I'm not out to do anything to crazy just looking for fun and adventure really my first snowshoe trip and out of my comfort zone but that's what I need, gets me through . Better than drinking myself to death or sitting around feeling sorry for myself. Work hard play hard besides not getting any younger anyway this ain't dr. Phil show. I'm gonna have fun!!
Wow been watching the weather Vermont's really getting hammered with snow . Right now we're getting stupid cold rain a couple degrees colder and we would be making double time pushing snow . But another story in Vermont where I'm going this weekend!! I'm thinking my first snow shoe trip err on the side of safety and advice from here , my plan pico camp or a little further than down AT to the inn or stay on shelburne back but the AT has shelters and camp sites. Except snow Saturday night 3degrees Sunday snow night -3 degrees ambient....
Slo-go'en
02-11-2019, 14:35
Conditions could be crazy. Last week was our "January thaw", which came a bit late. I don't know how central Vermont faired, but here in the Whites the snow is now like concrete. Put a foot of fresh snow on top of that and it gets real interesting. Good luck!
Well , I made up here to the inn after driving all night took a 1 hr. Nap in the parking lot until it got light enough to see. Then headed up to pico camp via the sherborne trail the first 1/2 mile had been snow shoe the other 2 miles I broke trail wow what a workout. Going down some of those creek beds and climbing back out was very tuff. It took me 5 hrs. To climb 2.5 miles hence 1/2 mile an hour. I was up to my waist a couple times but them msr snow shoes with flotation are really nice awesome to walk in snow with. Very nice cabin pico had it to myself, the next morning, afternoon I snowshoe back down. Then the next day I snowshoe up the deer leap trail it was very nice. So today my birthday I skied all day at pico . Whew I'm tired, sitting at the inn drinking crown and coke enjoying good food. GOOD TIMES!!!!
Sounds like a fun couple days.
HBD1
Slo-go'en
02-20-2019, 01:13
Bet your glad we talked you out of doing that 20 mile hike, eh? Glad you have a blast with the plan B hike.
Yeah really fun couple of days a real blast. And for sure I'm glad I came here for advice thanks again for all replys.