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ncwild
02-18-2019, 08:41
So I am looking for a new sleeping bag or quilt. I do not like the confining restrictions of a mummy bag so I am thinking going with a semi-rectangular bag or perhaps a quilt. Thinking of something 20 degree rated for Spring hiking in the Southern Appalachians. I want to keep the weight at a pound to 1.5 pounds. Not sure if i like not having any down underneath like in the quilt. Will be using a Neo Air 3.7 R value, 72″ length. For those of you that have switched to a quilt, do you still prefer the quilt, advantages, disadvantages? I realize the quilts are cheaper and less confining. Do you miss the mummy bag and the hood that they come with? Any input appreciated. Thanks.

Vince G
02-18-2019, 09:13
Based on your parameters, youíre probably only going to find a quilt that will hit the 24 ounce weight range. A semi-rectangular 20 degree sleeping bag will be quite a bit heavier. As far as quilts versus bags, I much prefer a quilt and donít even notice that there is no insulation underneath, as long as you have a good pad with an r value to match your conditions. Also, if you prefer a wide bag your probably gonna want a wide pad if you use a quilt. I can tolerate a 20 inch pad with a bag but find that I do much better in a quilt with a wider pad. As far as wether a quilt will work for you, the only way to tell is buy one and take the plunge. What I recommend is going with the REI Magma 30 degree quilt. With REIís liberal return policy, you can use it a few times and, if it doesnít work for you,return it. Just make sure you keep it in new condition and save the tags.


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Turtle-2013
02-18-2019, 09:23
I've been using quilts for years ... have three in various temp ranges. However I use them for better temperature control rather that the reasons you outlined. I use a neo-air pad with a neo-air fitted sheet, so it is a system much more like sleeping at home. I SWEAT in a mummy bag, then get cold, with the quilt, I can do a better job of staying the right temp. I do occasionally use a thin liner bag to extend the temp range of the quilt. I would never go back to a sleeping bag .. but that is me, and might not work for you.

martinb
02-18-2019, 09:25
You can use the mummy like a quilt. I usually don't zip up my #3 down hugger until it gets to about 40 or less.

garlic08
02-18-2019, 09:35
My 30F quilt is perhaps the best outdoor gear purchase I've ever made. Mine is just long enough to pull over my head to use as a hood when needed. An unanticipated bonus is how clean it stays.

I do like my 15F bag on longer winter nights though.

Tipi Walter
02-18-2019, 10:20
You can use the mummy like a quilt. I usually don't zip up my #3 down hugger until it gets to about 40 or less.

This is exactly my situation---My down bag BECOMES a quilt on most occasions. It can perform two functions---one as a quilt when I toss and turn all night---and one as a zipped up mummy bag when temps go south. In a way a quilt is a sleeping bag with a broken zipper, i.e. no zipper---which means when temps drop beyond expectations you don't have the option of getting warm by zipping up in mummification mode.

A couple years I was on a trip in the Southern Apps when it got in the 20Fs in early May and dumped a couple inches of snow---so you never know when you'll need more than a quilt.

Hosh
02-18-2019, 11:07
I switched to get a wider range of comfort in varying temps. Quilts will never be as warm as a comparable mummy bag. Enlightened Equipment makes a dual strap that allows you to build a quilt sandwich. It lets you build a version for deep winter to summer.

DuneElliot
02-18-2019, 14:19
I definitely don't miss the hood...only used it to keep my pillow in place anyway. I wear a wool hat.

I have EE's Convert which is basically a quilt with a full zipper...or a mummy bag without a hood. I like that it is so versatile...use as a quilt in warmer temps and make use of the zipper to turn it into a mummy bag when temps drop. Might be just the thing you are looking for.

Nooga
02-18-2019, 14:57
I made the switch from mummy to quilt. I carry a light weight down hood to use in conjunction with the quilt for colder temps. For me, the quilt is more comfortable and flexible.

wordstew
02-18-2019, 15:33
Why not buy a Feathered Friends Flicker and have a quilt and bag in one

QiWiz
02-18-2019, 17:13
Ratings are tricky things; would not trust a rating that seems too good to be true for the weight. I love quilts. What I would bring for the time/temps you are expecting would be a Jacks or Better Sierra Sniveller quilt. If it were really in the 20's, would be wearing my camp clothes and jacket and add the quilt as my last layer at night. I think your goal of a 1 to 1.5 pound weight is unrealistic for actual temps in mid-low 20's, whether for a quilt or a bag. With no hood, you need a good sleep hat.

steady123
02-18-2019, 17:50
I started out with a 20 degree sleeping bag with a self inflating sleeping pad. I froze my ass off numerous times on the AT during April/May in the South. I experimented with a hammock and the bag and found the bag restricting. i now have a 10 degree down quilt with a neo air inflatable. Works great. I am 5' 9" 144 lbs. At the time i was not smart enough to use a down jacket, etc. etc. as a sleep aid.

MattSin97
02-18-2019, 19:03
I would say it depends on the mummy. I’ve tried a few mummy bags that were a little restrictive, but the one I use now is great. It just depends whether you are willing to try some out before you purchase, that could mean actually going in a store and rolling around in a bag. With quilts you don’t have to worry about the restrictive part, but they aren’t for everyone either. Each has its advantages and limitations, and depending on your time frame and patience, you should try a few out before committing to anything substantial.

Vince G
02-18-2019, 21:03
My 30F quilt is perhaps the best outdoor gear purchase I've ever made. Mine is just long enough to pull over my head to use as a hood when needed. An unanticipated bonus is how clean it stays.

I do like my 15F bag on longer winter nights though.

Everybody has their own way of doing things and itís best to go with what works for you, but when I hear people say they pull their quilt up over their head it makes me cringe. The way a quilt should fit is to be a little bit snug around your shoulders while not having your feet pressed against the foot box. The way to properly fit a quilt is to get in sitting up, pull the quilt up until your feet hit the end of the foot box, cinch the quilt up around your neck and lay down. If the quilt is properly sized, two things will happen, your feet will move away from the end of the foot box and the sides of the quilt will tuck in against your body sealing you in. In most cases, I donít need to tuck the quilt in or make any adjustments and can do without a pad attachment system. By having a quilt that extends over your head means your quilt is too long.


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Slo-go'en
02-18-2019, 22:04
I just don't see the point of a quilt. You give up a bit of convenience for not much weight savings and that's really the bottom line right? I don't know what I'd do without a hood to hold my pillow in place :)

I'd rather a snug bag then a loose one. I have one of both. The loose bag has a 20 degree rating, but doesn't seem that warm and I finally figure out it was all the extra space inside the bag. It was definitely sized for someone with a much larger girth then I have. Oh well, it was on sale.

MuddyWaters
02-18-2019, 22:30
A quilt also needs a hood for your head in some fashion.

There's really not that much weight savings, especially for the folks that insist on having a wide and long quilt. When quilt started being popular it's because they were narrow and used by hammock sleepers, they were only 50 inch wide. there was weight savings. The average person today adds 6oz to their quilt by making it longer and wider until it almost equals a bag in weight, but not in warmth.

Plan on a quilt in 10 degrees colder rated then you want, imo.

The best things about quilts are you don't get tangled up in them. People that toss and turn that's really important. And the hood on your head turns with you instead of being attached to the bag.

The only time I miss a mummy bag is when I'm cold in my quilts..... By pushing them beyond where I should. Under 20 I prefer my wm versalite. For 30 and up, I haven't used the bag in years now. The 20 to 30 range, is where I have to make sure I've got enough supplemental clothing to be comfortable in a 20 quilt. And that all depends on how long it's cold and how cold it is. There's a difference between going to bed at 8 p.m. with it 25 degrees and it's 50 degrees, even if the overnight low is same temperature.

ncwild
02-19-2019, 08:51
Thanks for all the great responses. Kind of leaning toward a bag over a quilt due to handling colder temps. and having a hood. I did find a Western Mountaineering bag at 1lb 13 ounces rated at 25 degrees that is semi-rectangular, lots of room. Anyone have experience with the Western Mountaineering "Terralite"?

Venchka
02-19-2019, 09:57
I put 3 WM bags side by side.
Ultralite. Slim fit like the ancient REI bag that I was replacing. I was frankly tired of being cramped in a sleeping bag.
Terralite. Not quite the 20 degree rating I was looking for. Too roomy.
Alpinlite. Roomier than the Antelope that I already owned. Conservatively rated at 20 degrees. When I found one on sale I ran with it. Totally pleased and accurate thermometer verified comfy at 15 degrees. A great cowboy camping bag in September in the Wind River Range.
Good luck!
Wayne

Venchka
02-19-2019, 09:58
PS: I bought my Alpinlite in Charlotte, NC.
Wayne

JPritch
02-19-2019, 14:22
Have a 20 degree REI mummy that I bought when I started out, and a 40 degree EE long/Xwide quilt. I love the quilt for summer use. However, as much as I toss and turn at night, I could never see myself using a quilt on colder shoulder season nights. Too much fuss keeping it wrapped around you and not allowing drafts.

My trials and research have led me to WM bags. Now it's just a tossup between the Alpinlite or Terralite....and if I can find some sort of a discount on either.

JNI64
02-19-2019, 17:04
I went with the quilt for the Same reason I toss and turn a lot side to side you just tuck in . I have the hammock gear 0 degrees quilt with 4oz. Of extra, comes with draw string tighten at the foot box as well as buttons up to about knee level. At the head also has snap button and draw string to tighten around the shoulders. I think it came in at 20 oz. Very nice loft I've had it down to sub zero and beyond combining with down hoodie from zpacks. I also use the neoair.

Jim Adams
02-22-2019, 23:20
I turned my 0* Dow bag into a quilt. I removed the zipper and all draw chords and got the weight down to 22oz. I left the foot box intact. I sleep on a 1" self inflating Thermorest lite in summer and a 1 1/2" self inflating Thermorest in the winter. If it real cold I'll also use a closed cell mat under the self inflating mat. I can open it up to vent. I can roll around a toss and turn w/o any constriction. I've used it down to -6*f and wearing my down jacket I slept very comfortable. I used a 20* bag on my first thru hike. Will never use anything but a quilt again.

Maineiac64
02-23-2019, 06:54
Personally I sleep cold and prefer a bag for colder temps but do like a quilt when it is warmer.

kevperro
02-24-2019, 11:58
I have and still use a 25+ year old mummy bag (Feathered Friends) that I bought and used on half the AT, and a plethora of other hikes. I've gotten old and fat so I literally grew out of that thing. My wife & kids use it though and I washed it a couple weeks ago and I have to say it is as good as the day I bought it. It was ultra-light when I bought it at 2lbs for a 25-30 deg. bag (I forget what it is rated).

I've went through all kinds of quilts and bags since I bought that one. I've bought and sold them used to see what I like best. There is no magic bullet but what I use now is a Hammock Gear Burrow Econ 20 deg. along with a down jacket top with hood. I don't like the lightest fabrics used in the lowest weight quilts. I like the extra heft of the Econ series from HG and it is cheap in comparison. I'll carry the extra 2-3 ounces. When you talk about a bag/quilt it is probably best to talk about a sleep system, especially if you use a quilt. The advantage of the quilt is the flexibility. You carry a puffy jacket which gets used in camp and you use a combination of down or fleece hoods which are useful in camp as well as part of your sleep system. You can do the same thing with a bag and if I were dealing with entire trips under 20-25 deg. I'd probably just carry a bag.

Sleeping pad is just as important. After decades of experimenting with pads I still like the original Therm-a-Rest self-inflating pads in 3/4 length. They have always been pretty bullet-proof for me, low in pack volume and easier to set up than the current thicker inflating mattresses. Add a foam pad if you are dealing with winter/snow and you are set for almost all conditions. I sleep fine on the thinner pad, better than I do on the thicker ones which bounce and crinkle as you turn. YMMV.

kevperro
02-24-2019, 12:12
I just don't see the point of a quilt. You give up a bit of convenience for not much weight savings and that's really the bottom line right?


I'd say the point is to sleep well and carry as little as you can. But it is all a tradeoff. I scoffed at quilts at one time. Didn't think they saved much if any weight because you have to supplement them with so many things. It isn't about weight for me though. It is about the flexibility and sleeping well.

MuddyWaters
02-24-2019, 22:52
I just don't see the point of a quilt. You give up a bit of convenience for not much weight savings and that's really the bottom line right? I don't know what I'd do without a hood to hold my pillow in place :)
.
Ever try to sleep on stomach in a mummy bag?

Quilts and more convenient to get in and out of, more convenient for rolling around and tossing and turning in, right up until the point you start to get cold.

Venchka
02-24-2019, 23:07
Where is JustBillís treatise on Quilts vs. Sleeping bags?
Bottom Line: According to Bill, 20 degrees Fahrenheit is the point of diminishing returns for quilts.
His lengthy and well thought out explanation is buried somewhere in the archives of WhiteBlaze.
Good luck finding it.
Iím in the non-restrictive mummy bags for the Rockies from late August to early October camp. WM Alpinlite and Antelope specifically.
Yíall use what works for yíall.
Wayne

Dogwood
02-25-2019, 00:39
YES, I miss the hood in a mummy bag in a bag rated 25* and below. In 35-40*+ I don't miss the hood and switch to a quilt.

Details matter. For me, I cowboy camp whenever opportunity presents itself. I don't enclose in a tent or hammock most often. Another important detail is I customarily take the temp rating of a quilt or bag up to 15* below it's temp rating though I'm more apt to do this with the same accurately temp rated mummy bag rather than a quilt. I do many high elev hikes also. In other words I tend to experience greater exposure. Another important detail is in the way I sleep. I start out on my back and toss from side to side as a rotisserie sleeper. The seal around the shoulders and the sides of a quilt where they attach to the pad has to work exceptionally well if I'm going to retain the warmed air inside. Drafts suck big time for me in temps below freezing. It reduces one of the aspects I rely - a sound restful sleep. I've found most mummy bags hold in the heat better than quilts. From what I can tell this is in part because the hood is integrated rather than separate. Although hybrid quilts like ZPacks with a zip I've found hold in the heat better with less need to be aware of quilt fiddle factors. Yet another factor in this is that I daily put in on avg 14-16 hrs on the move not in camp or in a bag or quilt. I hit trails as a hiker not mainly a camper or doing other things than not moving. SO, when stop time comes and the way I approach backpacking I NEED those 7-8 hrs restful sleep. When I don't get it over several days my mind wanders and performance falls off. I get cold and fatigued easier. Food consumption actually rises. This snowballs until I get injured or make bad decisions. It factors into consumable wt and bulk carried too.

All that I glean from choosing a quilt or mummy.

IMHO, one necessity on and off trail is in knowing thyself. Everything people say or advise including myself are just guides to consider not necessarily fully personally embrace.

Dogwood
02-25-2019, 00:42
Where is JustBill’s treatise on Quilts vs. Sleeping bags?
Bottom Line: According to Bill, 20 degrees Fahrenheit is the point of diminishing returns for quilts.
His lengthy and well thought out explanation is buried somewhere in the archives of WhiteBlaze.
Good luck finding it.
I’m in the non-restrictive mummy bags for the Rockies from late August to early October camp. WM Alpinlite and Antelope specifically.
Y’all use what works for y’all.
Wayne

JB hasn't been the only one to note these factors or consequences or ideas. What JB brings to the table is his knowledge as a quilt designer and manufacturer. He also isn't afraid to go into details which long winded folks like me know can be critically significant. I'll be the first to state JB is appreciated.

Dogwood
02-25-2019, 01:00
If mummy bags are too confining perhaps one hasn't sufficiently explored different cut mummies, different sized mummies(OMG FF and WM have so many different cuts and sizes alone), and differently designed mummies that have more stretch like Montbell's Super Stretch and cut on the bias/Spiral bags that have more "give", or Nemos, etc. ? Also female mummies tend to be cut differently than unisex or male mummies so that might make the critical comfort difference. I know of some males that prefer sleeping in a female designed bag because the way their male bodies are shaped/sized or sleep. Reverse that. I know of some females that prefer bags designed for males. What I'm getting at is mummy bags differ. They are not all the same. IMHO it's better to understand this demoing and exploring mummy options comprehensively before throwing them out to embrace quilts ...as quilts are in fashion. They are the rage so some things, perhaps negative things, can be ignored in making sweeping quilt and mummy bag generalizations. For example, quilt based sleep systems are always lighter wt, less expensive, or...than conventional mummy bag based sleep systems. That little trapezoid piece of a mummy bag underneath and a hood may make more a difference than quilt promoters tend to suggest are useless wt and bulk. REMEMBER quilts largely were born out of UL philosophy. And even though I label myself as a ULer some ULer's including myself can rah rah their own gear and approaches ignoring critical aspects for other users having different goals, set ups, and approaches...that only become evident through personal usage and crash honesty. ULers can and very often leave out info.

kevperro
02-25-2019, 10:35
IMHO, one necessity on and off trail is in knowing thyself. Everything people say or advise including myself are just guides to consider not necessarily fully personally embrace.

No wiser words have ever been written in an backpacking internet forum. Which isn't a high bar..... but take it for what it is worth.

Newt0556
03-05-2019, 01:20
I use a quilt to around 35 to 40 degrees below that I switch over to a mummy. If you want light and quality western mountaineering but man are they pricey.

Dogwood
03-05-2019, 03:17
I turned my 0* Dow bag into a quilt. I removed the zipper and all draw chords and got the weight down to 22oz. I left the foot box intact. I sleep on a 1" self inflating Thermorest lite in summer and a 1 1/2" self inflating Thermorest in the winter. If it real cold I'll also use a closed cell mat under the self inflating mat. I can open it up to vent. I can roll around a toss and turn w/o any constriction. I've used it down to -6*f and wearing my down jacket I slept very comfortable. I used a 20* bag on my first thru hike. Will never use anything but a quilt again.

Well, you got my UL attention. Do they call you Sleepy, Sneezy, or Bashful? R U a dwarf? Do tell details UL Professor how you managed 22 oz for a 0* quilt? Brand, model, width, length, FP, fill wt(best guesstimate), face/interior fabrics. That's a really good wt if all is accurate. Anything behind the curtain oh wizard of UL? ;)

OwenM
03-05-2019, 14:36
So I am looking for a new sleeping bag or quilt. I do not like the confining restrictions of a mummy bag so I am thinking going with a semi-rectangular bag or perhaps a quilt. Thinking of something 20 degree rated for Spring hiking in the Southern Appalachians. I want to keep the weight at a pound to 1.5 pounds. Not sure if i like not having any down underneath like in the quilt. Will be using a Neo Air 3.7 R value, 72″ length. For those of you that have switched to a quilt, do you still prefer the quilt, advantages, disadvantages? I realize the quilts are cheaper and less confining. Do you miss the mummy bag and the hood that they come with? Any input appreciated. Thanks.
To me, that bolded part is one of the main reasons for moving to a quilt.
I'm not one to try steering someone else toward one or the other, but I'll give you my "bag vs. quilt" perspective, because I like a lot of room, too, even though I'm more of a back sleeper lately.
I currently(and for >5yrs now) use a size 6' Wide Katabatic Palisade quilt. If I had to replace it tomorrow with a bag, it'd be either a Feathered Friends Kestrel UL($469) or Western Mountaineering Megalite($470).
At today's pricing, a 900 fill 6' Wide Palisade + my Goosefeet hood is going to total $485, or $490 with optional 900 fill Hyperdry.
So while there's no real price difference with a premium bag of comparable quality, in this case the quilt actually costs a bit more when you add in the price of the hood.

The quilt + hood is going to weigh 21.5oz. The bags are listed at 27 and 24oz, respectively(Kestrel shown as 3oz heavier than the Megalite, but with 3.7oz more fill).
So there's no major weight difference, either.

Both of those bags are wide models with a shoulder girth of 64" vs the standard versions' 59-60".
My Wide Palisade has a width of 58" at the shoulder. With the edges secured 4" apart underneath me, it has the same girth as my 62" mummy bags, which is about as small as I'd want to use.
But the distance between the outermost baffles of both my Exped mats, and where I actually attach the quilt most often, is 14.5". I'll usually draw the sides in more in sub-freezing temps, but that's a girth of 72.5".
And that is a big difference. Very roomy.

On the quilt questions:
No, I don't miss a bag, and because I went "oversized"(I'm >50" at the shoulder, but under 5'7") and got a quilt with a list of performance-enhancing features that include an effective pad attachment system, I do not feel it has any disadvantages.

I think the problems most people have with quilts is that they bought the wrong one for their needs. Like getting a quilt that is too small for the sake of minimizing weight. Or one that isn't as warm. Yeah, my 30F quilt weighs 3oz more than some competitors. Wonder if that has anything to do with being 3" wider and having 2oz more down:rolleyes:
I could use Katabatic's size Small(5'6") quilts in their regular width, and know this because I have a 50F summer quilt with similar measurements. But I also knew when I bought my Palisade that I couldn't stand drafts, wanted room to move around, and that it was going to be used at temps much lower than its rating with a down hoody and other layers.
So I bought the 6' Wide instead.
The weight difference between those sizes in a current Palisade is 3.8oz.

The second night I used my Palisade in the field it was with supplemental layers at -2F, and I was fine. Obviously, a 30F quilt is not intended to be used at that temp, but I did the same kind of thing with a sleeping bag before, and the point is that the fact it was a quilt was not a limiting factor.

All that to say if you decide to get a quilt, make sure to get one that has the features and sizing appropriate to your expectations, so you don't become one of the people who were disappointed because they didn't. I read some of this stuff on the internet, and often wonder if the quilt isn't getting blamed for "operator deficiency"...

Dogwood
03-05-2019, 15:33
That's an appreciated nicely detailed post Owen. You're aware details are significantly important in quilt based sleep systems which can often be ignored or minimalized in many quilt verse bag comparisons.

This is good:At today's pricing, a 900 fill 6' Wide Palisade + my Goosefeet hood is going to total $485, or $490 with optional 900 fill Hyperdry.
So while there's no real price difference with a premium bag of comparable quality, in this case the quilt actually costs a bit more when you add in the price of the hood.

That's not something always recognized or shared. You're making like apples to apples comparisons and stating the opposite of many mainstream thoughts on quilt based sleep systems being less financially costly as if it's a given. And, I like you're recognizing that possibility while not being anti quilt judgmental.


Katabatic pricing options, of which some bristled, have widened to now include 850 FP Hyper Dry Duck Down which is lower in cost than premium goose down in the same FP. When I bought a Katabatic 15* Sawatch opted for 850 FP HyperDry Goose down fill. It cost $550. There was no 850 FP HyperDry Duck down option then. The same quilt has now dropped in price to $445 if the duck down options chosen,...a substantial cost decrease if not overly concerned about possible differences in duck verse goose down. It prolly factors heavily into why Kat is now Sold Out of the 850 HyperDry Duck Down option.

fastfoxengineering
03-05-2019, 15:45
That's an appreciated nicely detailed post Owen. You're aware details are significantly important in quilt based sleep systems which can often be ignored or minimalized in many quilt verse bag comparisons.

This is good:At today's pricing, a 900 fill 6' Wide Palisade + my Goosefeet hood is going to total $485, or $490 with optional 900 fill Hyperdry.
So while there's no real price difference with a premium bag of comparable quality, in this case the quilt actually costs a bit more when you add in the price of the hood.

That's not something always recognized or shared. You're making like apples to apples comparisons and stating the opposite of many mainstream thoughts on quilt based sleep systems being less financially costly as if it's a given. And, I like you're recognizing that possibility while not being anti quilt judgmental.


Katabatic pricing options, of which some bristled, have widened to now include 850 FP Hyper Dry Duck Down which is lower in cost than premium goose down in the same FP. When I bought a Katabatic 15* Sawatch opted for 850 FP HyperDry Goose down fill. It cost $550. There was no 850 FP HyperDry Duck down option then. The same quilt has now dropped in price to $445 if the duck down options chosen,...a substantial cost decrease if not overly concerned about possible differences in duck verse goose down. It prolly factors heavily into why Kat is now Sold Out of the 850 HyperDry Duck Down option.
Do you use any 850 quilts or bags?

Once I got a 900fp quilt I dont think ill ever to back. Compared to my 850 downtek. It lofts much faster, maintains loft, and overall just performs much better. The treated down is always clumpier. If i put my 900fp quilt in the sun within 10 minutes it looks like its about to burst! My 850dt doesnt do that.

I think treated down is overrated.... straight up old fashioned 900 fill is where its at.

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Dogwood
03-05-2019, 15:47
All that to say if you decide to get a quilt, make sure to get one that has the features and sizing appropriate to your expectations, so you don't become one of the people who were disappointed because they didn't. I read some of this stuff on the internet, and often wonder if the quilt isn't getting blamed for "operator deficiency"...

Great advise!

Dogwood
03-05-2019, 16:52
Do you use any 850 quilts or bags?

Once I got a 900fp quilt I dont think ill ever to back. Compared to my 850 downtek. It lofts much faster, maintains loft, and overall just performs much better. The treated down is always clumpier. If i put my 900fp quilt in the sun within 10 minutes it looks like its about to burst! My 850dt doesnt do that.

I think treated down is overrated.... straight up old fashioned 900 fill is where its at.

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk

Yes, as well as 900, and 950 FP goose down. As a rule I don't go lower than 850 in bags and quilts but I'm an anal UL and SULer that is concerned with what some see as minor performance differences. More so I recognize these pieces as high ticket items I get many nights and possibly more than a decade maybe two.

The 20* 950+ FP premium GOOSE DOWN FF Swallow UL is probably my highest quickest lofting bag. Lofting goes beyond merely FP though. Other details are important. i.e.: design, chamber shape, baffle loading, fabric traits, user treatments of gear(as Owen savvily stated can influence perspectives). It's super lofty and is conservatively temp rated(always an important detail for my approaches! However, compressing to reduce volume can be more time consuming.

I prefer goose rather than duck down in bags and quilts for a variety of reasons. In my experiences duck tends to be clumpier because the clusters are smaller as it comes from smaller and less mature birds often coming from places like China as a byproduct of duck food consumption where young birds are desired to be quickly brought to food harvest compared to the same FP that comes from the best goose down, that in some cases may be harvested NOT as a by product of food consumption, like from goose nests after the goslings have fledged. In high down fill wts I trend toward goose for this reason; it's less clumpier than the same FP best goose down and hence it lofts faster. I have a keen olfactory sense making possible duck down odor more noticeable. I dont find goose down to be odorous at all. Other factors play into this. Some marketers of duck down suggest these two have no characteristic or performance differences in the same FP. I disagree as do some others who market Hungarian or French Grey goose. As demanding goose down commodity markets may increase the price even further of the very highest FP goose downs for the highest end applications we're seeing more availability, more marketing, and a lower price pt with the duck down option. For example, Allied Feather, one of the premier feather suppliers is now offering different FP down options.
https://www.downandfeathercompany.com/pages/goose-vs-duck
http://www.standardfiber.com/materials/bedding-basics/duck-goose/
http://www.valandre.com/down.html Always some marketing hype but also possibly some individually applicable valid pts

I chose 850 FP HyperDry goose down for the Sawatch because I intended to use it to 5* somewhat regularly with a MLD Superlight bivy often on extended milder winter trips while "cowboy camping" on the Colorado Plateau so wanted to minimize potential of loft deterioration over extended durations. I do sometimes go on trips for up to a few wks without accessing a resupply or going into a town as TW does. I also wanted to use it in hang set ups and mild alpining sleeping on ledges and ridges or in winter where exposure under all these set ups could be high.


The hydrophobic or not debate is not a topic to discuss here in detail as it'll likely lead to further thread drift than my down drift. :D In short treated down may provide some marginal performance increases. It is marketed fairly if we dont read too much into it.

OwenM
03-06-2019, 03:17
Maybe not to be discussed in detail, but treated down is a selling point for some, and a point in favor of quilts in a "quilt vs. bag" discussion, IMO. Most bags either have it or not, and I don't know if any of them use Allied Hyperdry. The premium bag makers do not yet offer it(kinda like they were years behind on entering the quilt market), but with made to order quilts it's usually an option. So if you do want it, you can get it.

Both my quilts use 850 Hyperdry goose down, as that was the option at the time vs regular 900 fill. It's not that often that I get to see where the treated down makes a notable difference(and sometimes what difference there is may well be due to the shell material), but the few times I have were when it really mattered, so I'm pretty sold on it. Options are good...

Zalman
03-06-2019, 14:16
Interestingly, though I read in this forum regularly about how mummy bags and CCF pads, and narrow pads are all anthemic to side-sleepers and stomach-sleepers, I have never had any issues whatsoever. I mostly sleep on my side, sometimes on my stomach, always in a mummy bag with a narrow CCF pad.

I really don't get any of the side-sleeper hype. I'm not any wider on my stomach than I am on my back. Magically, I'm exactly the same girth on my side as well. I fit in my sleeping bag the same no matter what orientation I'm lying in, and I fit on my pad better on my side (I suppose some people are wider from front-to-back than they are side-to-side, but it would take a fairly good size belly to make up the width of my shoulders and arms.)

Dogwood
03-06-2019, 19:17
Maybe not to be discussed in detail, but treated down is a selling point for some, and a point in favor of quilts in a "quilt vs. bag" discussion, IMO. Most bags either have it or not, and I don't know if any of them use Allied Hyperdry. The premium bag makers do not yet offer it(kinda like they were years behind on entering the quilt market), but with made to order quilts it's usually an option. So if you do want it, you can get it.

Both my quilts use 850 Hyperdry goose down, as that was the option at the time vs regular 900 fill. It's not that often that I get to see where the treated down makes a notable difference(and sometimes what difference there is may well be due to the shell material), but the few times I have were when it really mattered, so I'm pretty sold on it. Options are good...

The high end bag designers like FF, WM, Valandre, and higher end models of Marmot, etc in large part, from what I ascertain, rely more on their higher quality shell and interior fabrics and treatments options rather than hydrophobic downs. They tend to overfill baffles. These manufacturers prolly have established untreated down contracts and manufacturing methods. Buyers of these higher end bags tend to place high value on durability and longevity which makes high purchase cost more acceptable when cost averaged over extended useful lifetimes. hydrophobic downs are yet to establish historical long term durability and possible performance histories which these manufacturers know their customer base esteems highly. And, these manufacturers likely are aware buyers of higher priced bags like they offer likely have a higher educational awareness in maintaining their bag's loft and other performance traits.

fastfoxengineering
03-06-2019, 19:43
I just ordered a 900 hyperdry Katabatic Palisade.

I'll report back on the awesomeness in a few weeks.

6', Regular Width. 17.5 ounces. Im hoping it is as good as everyone says.



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OwenM
03-07-2019, 05:18
Congratulations, there's really nothing better at the moment. It'll spoil other quilts for you, though. Just wait 'til you see what you get for that little extra you spent. If you can compare it side by side, or even in detail pics, with some from other makers(ANY other makers, including Nunatak and the new Western Mountaineering ones), that should really drive the difference home. If you pay attention to the reinforced snap, draft collar, edging and contouring on the back, the overstuffed footbox and its design, the things that set it apart will be glaringly obvious.

I don't know how quickly that Hyperdry 900 lofts up compared to regular 900 or 950 fill in bags that use them, but I've done a lot of reviews and tutorials(I guess for my own entertainment, since noone else ever sees them:rolleyes:), and have some pics from "testing" both a partial solid inner and an OR Filament jacket that I thought of.
I tend to take campsite pictures right after making camp, but sometimes don't until later. Also have a habit of draping my quilt or bag over my shelter in good weather so it's out of the way.
My Palisade has the older 850 Hyperdry goose down option, but can you tell the difference between the quilt fresh out of the stuff sack, and after being shaken out and sitting for a little while?
44766

44767

Rhetorical question, I know:D

Hope you enjoy yours as much as I do mine. It's still just a "thing", but is probably my only piece of gear that I actually get enthusiastic about(I know it's hard to tell!). Katabatic's stuff reminds me of something one of my old knifemaker buds, Darrel Ralph, used to have on his site: "The bitterness of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten", and the flip side is certainly true in this case.

Dogwood
03-07-2019, 14:46
Good stuff Owen!

fastfoxengineering
03-07-2019, 16:04
Nice! I'm looking forward to having a quilt that works as part of my whole system. I always fear packed with a warm bag. Im hoping palisade works for me.



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