Let’s Talk Insects

[GolfHiker]

Hey all, as a follow up to my recent Let’s talk ear👂 plugs, I’d like to get some opinions on bug dope. I backpack quite a bit each year, different seasons, often on the AT, and I’m very reluctant to use dope unless I just can’t stand it any more. Not to deny tick protection ( I do utilize Insect Shield) but I’m more interested in what works well for mosquitoes, no see ems, and black flies. The every day nuisance stuff we all encounter.

Ive tried all the main otc stuff, Ben’s, Off, Cutter, Skin So Soft ( been a while for that one), and something called 45*N, 68*W, which I do like. I understand Deet and Permethrin, and the less toxic the ingredients, the better, but when push comes to shove, I have sprayed up with 99% Deet.

So, I’ve set the table, and value your input on what works for you, assuming there must be something out there to consider.

And I promise not to start a series of Let’s Talk......

Thanks.

[Feral Bill]

I use Deet, sparingly. It works.

[somers515]

. . . the less toxic the ingredients, the better, but when push comes to shove, I have sprayed up with 99% Deet. . . .
And I promise not to start a series of Let’s Talk......

Just fyi for those reading this thread. The percentage of deet only determines how long it lasts according to a few sources that I've read including the makers of OFF:

FACT: THE LEVEL OF DEET IN REPELLENT ONLY DETERMINES HOW LONG THE PROTECTION LASTS.
For example, OFF!® FamilyCare Insect Repellent IV (https://off.com/en/product/family-care/family-care-insect-repellent-iv-mini-pump-spray) contains 7% DEET and repels mosquitoes for up to 2 hours, while OFF!® Deep Woods® Sportsmen Insect Repellent I (https://off.com/en/product/deep-woods/deep-woods-sportsmen-insect-repellent-i) contains 98.25% DEET and repels mosquitoes for up to 10 hours.



A series of "Let's Talk" doesn't sound like a bad idea to me!

[devoidapop]

I don't use anything in the mountains, but at home and on the coast I use Skeeter Beater. Works pretty well, doesn't smell bad, doesn't sting if it runs down into your eyes. I don't have a bottle handy, but I'm pretty sure it's just a mix essential oils. vanilla, peppermint, lemon grass, and such. probably easy to make at home.

[Tipi Walter]

I've spent a crapload of time backpacking in bug season and have tried everything from meaningless herbal lotions and pennyroyal to citronella incense sticks to body salves to skin so soft to picaridin (useless) to lemon and eucalyptus to your Aunt Susie's favorite glop.

Nothing works except for DEET, sad to say. I hear there's a yoga technique to repel bugs but I haven't yet mastered it. (Nor have I mastered Tummo meditation---heat generation in cold temps).

In my neck of the woods NOSEEUMS, i.e. MIDGES are the killer. They swarm sight-unseen and pester me to death. DEET thins them out.

Oh and I use a sea to summit headnet all the time in bug season while hiking---not used of course when inside the tent.

[grubbster]

Products with picaridin work about as well as deet without the oiliness or plastic melting properties.

[Tipi Walter]

Products with picaridin work about as well as deet without the oiliness or plastic melting properties.

This has not been my experience---after careful comparison and field testing in midge season. For me at least Picaridin is next to useless. In fact, skin so soft performed better than picaridin.

[Hikingjim]

How about permethrin? I've used it for ticks, but never specifically for other annoying insects. I know it's supposed to be effective against mosquitoes as well. Any direct experience with this?

Obviously on clothes is a bit different and might need deet to supplement other areas, but curious if people find a difference if they've already treated their clothing

[Puddlefish]

I'm a huge DEET fan. DEET rightfully got a bad rep back in the day when it was used in massive quantities. Used in small repetitive quantities, it really prevents mosquito and black fly bites. They'll still buzz about your face a bit, nothing you can do about that, but they won't typically land.

For ticks, DEET is a lifesaver, I routinely hike through a wet low lying field, and can pick up as many as 20 ticks in half mile stretch. With DEET on my skin, and permethrin on my clothes, they just crawl around for a bit without ever attempting to latch on. When I pass that half mile stretch, I just brush them off, and continue.

It's easy to control the amounts you use, to keep it to a minimum. The southern AT in the spring was joyfully bugless, NH in the late spring is just tick world and I can't walk to my car without doing a tick check. Mosquitoes and black flies, it's about season, heat, elevation, wind. I can really forego bug repellent for most of the time, but when I need it, I need it to work.

At the end of the day, I dip a bandana in my plastic milk jug cutaway sink, and sponge away the DEET before I get in my tent.

[Dogwood]

Short answer permethrin, picaradin, DEET, essential oils.

I take a multi layered approach which can include commercial insect repellents but doesn't usually solely rely on them. What exact approach I take is based on the anticipated pressure of what specific insects I'm trying to repel. Dont forget that reducing exposed skin, wearing Rair Riders Eco Mesh pants for example(a necessity for WRR and Sierra high biting periods), tucking in pants, wearing light colored clothing(research has shown skeeters are attracted to dark clothing), diet, supplements, etc can impact biting insect experiences. What works for one may not be as another experiences. Hence, one of the reasons why different reports of what personally works. And why two people in the same general camping area can have radically different biting insect experiences.


For the AT:

Midges/noseeums - med- high pressure mainly around the nose, ears and eyes, wear sun glasses where the tint changes depending on sunlight(be careful not get balms or repellents on lenses), smearing a layer of essential oil containing Berts Bees Lip Balm or Res Q Ointmen( I use this for multiple purposes to reduce the stuff carried just as a mailed small bottle of Dr Bronners eucalyptus/citrus/lavender soaps) on ears, nostrils, and wearing a BUFF and/or bandana w/ working Insect Shield is usually all I need. I may wear a BUFF as a bandana and a bandana as a Jesse James face mask. As TW said during summer they can be relentless and a heavy nuisance committing what I refer to as midge suicide flying up nostrils and into eyes and ears or getting under a shirt. UGGGH! I've taken spills because midges flew into orifices. The oils work but I think it may also be them not wanting to get stuck in the balm or balm on their feet or wings so learn to avoid those areas where it's applied. This approach may need repeated applications and it involves possibly covering up exposed skin. It's the same with skeeters.

Skeeters - med pressure, essential oils(lemongrass, peppermint, Cedarwood, geranium, lavender, tea tree, clove, NEEM, etc) in almond or EVOO base. Again I suspect part of the reason goes beyond odors to insects not wanting to land on oily skin. I've had good results with Repel Lemon Eucalyptus Insect Repellent and picaradin as well. In camp I light incense or may start a small smoke fire. On more than one occasion I've applied a layer of ash or mud to skin that dries solid. I may seek a windier or non low lying higher elev site that isn't near where H2O tends to pool. That means selecting a dry camp. That may mean widening essential backing skills. That alone CAN make all the difference. There are many interconnected consequential factors that most don't want to be aware so take the easiest approaches which typically involve repeatedly slathering on high concentrations of something like DEET. Dont get me wrong though. If I was going to the Amazon for 3 months shots and DEET would be components in insect protection. Personally, I prefer to not constantly "bathe" in any one chemical commercial product.

What works or what's best can be differently defined. DEET gets high marks because quite a few studies were authorized by the military that may have different aims than others. i.e; high DEET concentrations don't have to be applied as often, as Somers wrote, so soldiers can focus on soldiering rather than more often repeated bug juice applications and encountering higher odds of being bitten with diseases carrying biting insects. If you're willing to apply perhaps more often as a hiker what's BEST can be differently defined. And soldiers have to be mindful of prioritize soldiering not so much be aware of all these other factors. Many efficacy studies also are based on one to one product comparisons rather than safely combining different approaches for a cumulative acting bug repelling effect.

It helps to understand what attracts skeeters. If I allow myself to emit a strong body odor known to attract biting insects through applied colognes, fragrances, laundry detergents, shampoo, etc or built up trail grime and sweat(ammonia) and exhale extensively(CO2) that attracts skeeters. Since urine contains ammonia during warm periods/mosquito/black fly/midge hatches I get up if having to urinate and go away from where I'm camped. That also means if camped in established sites where others have urinated lazily nearby that can increase biting insect odds just as experiencing mice or cockroaches or snakes or bears. In winter I use a pee bottle. Skeeters are attracted to heat and movement so if again I can be mindful of personal thermoregulation it has an affect on biting insects. That may mean I have to be mindful of varying pace which everyone obviously is not. Sorry to say but not all are aware of these factors so being consistently in the immediate vicinity of others especially sleeping I personally I know can raise odds of being bitten same with having negative wildlife(mice, snakes, bears, etc) experiences or being exposed to water borne parasites. *That safety humans perceive in congregating and socializing can actually be problematic.

This sounds and is complicated. It's not the short answer but with the bag nights and miles it has become second nature. I don't even think about this much anymore. It's part of me.

One caution. Consistent heavy applications of any of these chemicals can affect apparel, electronics, watch, breathability and WPness performance and durability. I've ruined WP shell membranes and watch finishes and affected breathability. They have affected zipper performance. They can attract greater grime. There may be other consequences we are not fully accounting.

[Old Hillwalker]

DEET is a repellent
Permethrin is an insecticide that kills Ticks on contact. As well as cats, fish, bees and a whole host of life, some beneficial , some not so much.

That said I use a lot of Permethrin since I work in the Maine woods. Also DEET during Buffalo Gnat season here in the Northeast.

[peakbagger]

3M ultrathon, its a lower DEET concentration but it has some additive to keep it from absorbing in the skin so it lasts longer. It was developed for the military to reduce the bad side effects of 100% deet while retaining the effectiveness of higher concentrations. The only down side is you need to mix it up before using it if it has set for an extended time as it will separate. Not an issue day to day use but I notice it between weekends. I switched to Ultrathon when it was released for civilian use as initially the military bought the entire production for the gulf wars and havent found anything better

My standard caveat is most people use far too much DEET. The intent is not to bathe with it, just a drop should be good for a leg and arm. DEET does not stop deer flies. It also doesn't stop black flies from swarming around your head. About the only thing is a hat with a tanglefoot pad on the top. In really bad dense black fly conditions they will still land but will crawl up under clothing to areas not protected by DEET.

BTW , I spray my clothes with permetherin.

[RockDoc]

If there's an issue, permetherin. If there's not an issue, there's not an issue.

[illabelle]

I mostly don't use any bug repellent or insecticide. But then I avoid hiking where/when bugs swarm. I've experienced just a little of the northern black flies - I HATE those things!
If I expect to be in a heavily tick-infested area, I might put some permethrin on my shoes. Should probably treat clothes too, but I don't.
I don't like to be cold, yet hiking in moderately cold weather sure beats fighting miniature kamikaze swarms.

[Five Tango]

Apple cider vinegar https://www.lifehack.org/318061/12-reasons-you-should-keep-drinking-apple-cider-vinegarap

Note:note,I am not man enough to drink the stuff so I take it in capsule form twice a day.I get it at Botanic Choice.
Since I have started taking ACV,tumeric,and a B multivitamin daily the mosquitoes leave me alone.My arthritis is better and my cholesterol has gone down considerably.I do treat my clothes with permethrin.I suspect that the capsules repel critters other than mosquitoes but I can attest that it works for me.In summer I will carry some Repel Lemon Eucalptus just in case but I hardly ever use it and if I do it will go on my hat or bandana around my neck.

[Dogwood]

"...hat with a tanglefoot pad on the top." :-?

New one.

Does that go along with wrapping a hot towel around my head? :D

[Traveler]

100% DEET has worked for me most everywhere, easy to carry, use, and bugs know when its time to reapply. As a secondary approach, I wear a bug net around my head for black fly and no-see-ums to avoid breathing them in.

[fiddlehead]

Bug head net for me. and long sleeve shirt and pants
I've been known to put a little deet on my hat and shirt collar, but not into putting it on my skin.
I was at a wedding the other day and everyone was spraying that crap all over themselves.
The place smelled like a chemical factory.

[rmitchell]

My sister-in-law used to ride horses up at Big South Fork which has a big problem with ticks in warm weather. She used baby powder around pant cuffs and waist line. Come to find out that there was a carcinogenic ingredient in the powder. Arsenic? Maybe that's why it worked.

When picking blackberries I use Gold Bond at cuff and waist line and deet on shoes. Hopefully Gold Bond doesn't prove to be hazardous.

Best defense at home is having a flock of Guinea fowl as they eat ticks.

On the trail I agree with Illabelle, repellent only as a last resort. The first choice is Lemon Eucalyptus but only if bugs get totally intolerable. I always carry a head net but have not been able to sleep wearing it. If it's warm enough for mosquitoes to fly at night the bug net is too hot to wear sleeping.

[HooKooDooKu]

How about permethrin? I've used it for ticks, but never specifically for other annoying insects. I know it's supposed to be effective against mosquitoes as well. Any direct experience with this?

Obviously on clothes is a bit different and might need deet to supplement other areas, but curious if people find a difference if they've already treated their clothing
When I did the JMT in the summer of 2016, there were mosquitoes and/or biting flies along most of the length of the trail. So long as you were walking, they generally didn't bother you, but the moment you stop, you could experience anything from mild annoyance to down-right swarms.

While I did take along some DEET, I was loathed to use it as I didn't want residuals to get on my tent/sleeping bag. But I did have a set of (factory) permethrin treated clothing (long pants, long sleeve button down shirt, head net). Using the bug cloths when I stopped for lunch or in camp in the evening allowed me to hike the entire length of the JMT and never once opened by bottle of DEET.

There were perhaps only 3 places where the bugs were bad enough that I had to include my head net. Usually the bug shirt and wide brimmed hat were enough to keep them off my face. There was perhaps one spot where even walking the bugs got bad enough I had to stop and put on the bug cloths.

[Dogwood]

My sister-in-law used to ride horses up at Big South Fork which has a big problem with ticks in warm weather. She used baby powder around pant cuffs and waist line. Come to find out that there was a carcinogenic ingredient in the powder. Arsenic? Maybe that's why it worked.

When picking blackberries I use Gold Bond at cuff and waist line and deet on shoes. Hopefully Gold Bond doesn't prove to be hazardous.

Best defense at home is having a flock of Guinea fowl as they eat ticks.

On the trail I agree with Illabelle, repellent only as a last resort. The first choice is Lemon Eucalyptus but only if bugs get totally intolerable. I always carry a head net but have not been able to sleep wearing it. If it's warm enough for mosquitoes to fly at night the bug net is too hot to wear sleeping.

A better approach is dusting ONLY FOOD GRADE Diatomaceous Earth(DE) on cuffs and waist line. Some dog breeders sprinkle a bit into feed for dogs to detoxify internal parasites and sprinkle on coats and around bending to control fleas and ticks rather than apply chemicals. I use it in my home and garden to control cockroaches, fire ants, fleas, ticks, slugs, snails, sow bugs, and earwigs. If dust brushed on clothing around insect pts of entry it has to be used in dry weather.

[Dogwood]

A 2 lb FOOD GRADE bag of DE is about $10. Unless having to routinely apply in rainy weather it has been much less expensive in the garden and around the home than liquid or granular insect and slug bait controls bought at H.D., Lowes, Ace, or AG supply stores. I'm much more inclined to rec DE around children's playgrounds and edible gardens than any other commercial insect controls for fire ant control. It has saved me much money on insect controls on commercial owned properties compared to hiring Orkin or other likewise chemical approached insect control companies. I know of some horse owners who use it as well. It has been a godsend to controlling slugs and snails on hosts, and leafy vegetable garden greens. I'll use with a deep saucer of beer for slug and snail controls rather than much more expensive slug and snail baits. I find some rodents aren't fond of crossing a line of it either.

[illabelle]

My sister-in-law used to ride horses up at Big South Fork which has a big problem with ticks in warm weather. She used baby powder around pant cuffs and waist line. Come to find out that there was a carcinogenic ingredient in the powder. Arsenic? Maybe that's why it worked.

When picking blackberries I use Gold Bond at cuff and waist line and deet on shoes. Hopefully Gold Bond doesn't prove to be hazardous.

Best defense at home is having a flock of Guinea fowl as they eat ticks.

On the trail I agree with Illabelle, repellent only as a last resort. The first choice is Lemon Eucalyptus but only if bugs get totally intolerable. I always carry a head net but have not been able to sleep wearing it. If it's warm enough for mosquitoes to fly at night the bug net is too hot to wear sleeping.
Big South Fork is the worst place for ticks that I've seen. I remember one little afternoon hike on a wide recently mowed/cleared path near Burnt Mill Bridge. Daughter and I got back to the vehicle, looked at our legs, and saw scores of the little boogers crawling around. I don't like to exaggerate, but it might have been a few hundred between the two of us. Yikes! We hightailed it back to Knoxville (still a good hour away) and used a combination of duct tape, scrubbing, and scraping to remove them. NEVER want to see that again!

By the way, we do have guineas at home. Let's start a discussion about establishing feral guinea colonies up and down the AT corridor, shall we?

[Dogwood]

Have been to BSF three times two times for taking the two different Sheltowee routes in late summer and the other time fall. Have you ever been the NJ Pinelands Preserve? Ticks love sucking on deer, harboring in pines, and intermittent underbrush like overgrown grass edges. This described the PR. PR and southern NJ has abundance of ticks. I've gone out in shorts in summer. Within 20 mins I had at least 30 ticks on my bottom half crawling and already burrowing into those warm nether regions, a real Space Invaders situation. Worse are when the seed ticks are in abundance which look like small poppy seeds or pepper flakes some almost imperceptible to the naked eye. Much worse than anything I've experienced in BSF during those seasons. i wouldn't do the Batona Tr without strong tick prevention!

[rmitchell]

Seed ticks are nightmare material. Once stepped into a nest of them. When I checked my itching fight foot I lost count at fifty plus of the little buggers attached just to my foot. I had to use a knife to scrape them off.

Dogwood
Thanks for the tip for Diatomaceous earth.

Illabelle

The might be an issue with non native guinea fowl. BTW aren't they the most stupid bird in the barn lot or are the ones I have inbred?

[Dogwood]

DE use is great sprinkled around the bases of hostas(not hosts) on the ground for snails and slugs which these creepers love to munch. As an aside there are hosta cvs with good slug resistance.

[illabelle]

Seed ticks are nightmare material. Once stepped into a nest of them. When I checked my itching fight foot I lost count at fifty plus of the little buggers attached just to my foot. I had to use a knife to scrape them off.
Dogwood
Thanks for the tip for Diatomaceous earth.
Illabelle
The might be an issue with non native guinea fowl. BTW aren't they the most stupid bird in the barn lot or are the ones I have inbred?

Haha! Stupid? Yes they are. Inbred? That too (at least mine are). But wondering... What if the diseases the ticks are carrying aren't native? Can't we introduce a non-native bird to prey on a carrier pest of a non-native disease?

Not much chance the guineas would survive predation anyway. Nesting on the ground for a full month is dangerous. On the other hand, surely quail and grouse and other native US birds would eat ticks too, right? Maybe they do but their population is insufficient.

Dogwood, I'll have to try some of your DE tricks. I recently bought some blue hostas. Would hate to see slugs chewing them up.

[rmitchell]

Sorry for the drift.

But fire ants are becoming more of a problem locally. In fact I'm going to try the DE on a colony that just moved into my yard. Are fire ants known to inhabit the southern parts of the AT or the Pinhoti? I would hate to set up a tent on a mound of them.

Wasps haven't been mentioned. Hornet nests can usually be spotted and avoided but yellow jackets are another thing altogether. I think yellow jackets in late summer or fall present a bigger danger than poisonous snakes. There was a fatality recently in GSMNP attributed to bee stings. I'm not sure if the victim was alergic.

[Tipi Walter]

Sorry for the drift.

But fire ants are becoming more of a problem locally. In fact I'm going to try the DE on a colony that just moved into my yard. Are fire ants known to inhabit the southern parts of the AT or the Pinhoti? I would hate to set up a tent on a mound of them.

Wasps haven't been mentioned. Hornet nests can usually be spotted and avoided but yellow jackets are another thing altogether. I think yellow jackets in late summer or fall present a bigger danger than poisonous snakes. There was a fatality recently in GSMNP attributed to bee stings. I'm not sure if the victim was alergic.

Fireant mounds are hard to find in the Southern Appalachian mountains along backpacking trails---as they like disturbed soils and are frequently found along roads and in yards. I don't think I've ever seen a actual fireant mound on any of the trails I hike . . . . although I may be mis-remembering. And to set a tent on top of a fireant nest would be nearly impossible---or require the IQ of about 10.

On the other hand, black carpenter ants are a real pest and many southern campsites have swarms of them investigating everything. On my last trip to Tate Gap on the BMT I set up camp on an old logging cut and had hundreds of the things crawling everywhere. Another good reason to have an enclosed tent and not an open tarp. These black ants can chew thru a ziploc bag, btw.

We have two types of hornets in the Southeast that present a problem to backpackers---White Face hornets and the mentioned yellow jackets.

The bigger white face hornets build paper nests usually exposed and hanging off a tree---I was on the Sycamore Creek trail recently and set up camp near one of their active nests---which was right on the trail.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/Green-Cove-Cabin/i-3dg6frh/0/8f74fa8a/XL/TRIP%20147%20367-XL.jpg
But in my experience these guys are MUCH LESS aggressive than Yellow Jackets---even though I've been stung by these guys over the years---but a fraction of the times I've been hit by yellow jackets.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2018-Trips-188-/21-Day-Quest-for-the-Seven-Kingdoms/i-6QgRdTL/0/a3ebd31e/XL/Trip%20193%20Pt%202%20%2881%29-XL.jpg
Here's a typical yellow jacket nest on the Jenkins Meadow trail in the Kilmer wilderness---and recently dug out by a bear. Thing is, a careful hiker can often spot active yellow jacket nests by eyeballing the trail ahead and looking for their holes---and then pulling a detour.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2016-Trips-171/21-Days-on-Warriors-Passage/i-WsJ92t5/0/c286fd8e/XL/P1000283-XL.jpg
Here's another good example of a partially opened yellow jacket nest---spot it first and make a detour and avoid a slew of stings.

[GolfHiker]

Apple cider vinegar https://www.lifehack.org/318061/12-reasons-you-should-keep-drinking-apple-cider-vinegarap

Note:note,I am not man enough to drink the stuff so I take it in capsule form twice a day.I get it at Botanic Choice.
Since I have started taking ACV,tumeric,and a B multivitamin daily the mosquitoes leave me alone.My arthritis is better and my cholesterol has gone down considerably.I do treat my clothes with permethrin.I suspect that the capsules repel critters other than mosquitoes but I can attest that it works for me.In summer I will carry some Repel Lemon Eucalptus just in case but I hardly ever use it and if I do it will go on my hat or bandana around my neck.

Five Tango... I’m curious and the ACV sounds promising. If you had an upcoming hike planned, how many days prior would you begin taking the capsules? Secondly, how do you incorporate turmeric? Powder? Given that this combination also relieves some arthritis, I might assume you do everything regularly, hiking or not.

Thanks.

[Dogwood]

I was wondering about the details too so glad GolfHiker asked.

[MtDoraDave]

Permethrine has done a fine job of repelling most insects for me - but I'm one of those people who use the farm grade stuff with the chemical smell.
.
A warning for deet users. The 100% or similar strength deet can melt/ damage nylon. Tents, pants, fishing line, etc.

[Dogwood]

Sorry for the drift.

But fire ants are becoming more of a problem locally. In fact I'm going to try the DE on a colony that just moved into my yard. Are fire ants known to inhabit the southern parts of the AT or the Pinhoti? I would hate to set up a tent on a mound of them.
I did encounter fire ants on the PT. As TW said not so much on the AT although that does not mean they dont exist there.

[rmitchell]

The established fire ant colonies make tall mounds. I've be seeing them beside the road first a half mile from my house, next year a few hundred yards away. Now there is a small bare spot in my yard, no mound. No ants visible, but if the dirt is disturbed dozens of ants suddenly appear. So it not be far fetched to come in at dusk or during a rain and plop down a tent then it get swarmed.

[Dogwood]

I've tarped extensively under a A frame cat cut or MLD SoloMid XL but mostly cowboy on 30" x 84" untreated polycro or Tyvek, during warm weather using a quilt throughout the southern states other than LA and MS. It's rare I get bit by red or black imported fire ants. I get bitten more by very tiny black ants with tiny gentler but still annoying bites but that's still quite rare. I'm not up on ant identification but I don't think these are the same teensy speedy ants that go after food on a kitchen counter which dont seem to bite. I encounter more acrobat and carpenter ants on hikes which will bite if highly agitated. I've found this out as it's my style to often cozy up to the base of trees where it functions as a back rest where ants and sometimes centipedes, millipedes, roaches, termites, mice, voles, even snakes, etc burrow and caterpillars or other insects can drop from overhead. Other than flies, midges and mosquitos I've been bitten prolly most by spiders while sleeping on hikes which have personally resulted in physical problems. These occurrences are lessened by perusing sleep sites pre pack explosion and lay me down to sleep. In FL especially(for fire ants) or in tick infested locals I find treating a Tyvek ground cloth with permethrin beneficial.

@rmitchell Apply the DE lightly on a fire ant mound extending outwards of the entire mound encircling the entire circumference if you have limited infestation. This is a targeted application approach for a specific unwanted insect. It is more a IPM(Integrated Pest Management ) approach rather than applying indiscriminately as is common in the landscape maintenance industry. I may, in rarer very heavy situations put in a broadcast spreader applying at a very light setting for lighter apps. I take this approach as a last option though as it can also kill beneficials, a result not desired. Do so when ground is dry and no rain in the forecast.

To be clear I don't focus extensively on commercial or residential landscape maintenance, organic or otherwise. I'm not an entomologist either although have taken Hort Ent I yrs ago and attained some certifications like IPM, NALP, FNGLA, several state Master Gardener certs, etc largely as a byproduct of being a Landscape Designer/APLD member and Horticulturalist - all around plant and design geek in laymen terms. I state all this as we have to be careful what we read on the net as advisory.

[devoidapop]

I live in a fire ant hot spot of NC. usually get one or two bites a year and I have very bad reactions to them (extreme swelling). The mounds in the grass are pretty easy to spot and avoid. Most of my bites are from cleaning up leaves in the yard. I don't see the ants foraging under a pile of leaves and by the time I know they're there, it is too late. If you're looking for a sleeping spot in an area where you suspect fire ants, definitely look for hard packed bare ground and don't clear leaf piles by hand.

[rmitchell]

I take this approach as a last option though as it can also kill beneficials.
. I state all this as we have to be careful what we read on the net as advisory.

This.++

Thanks. I compost on a fairly large scale and vegetable garden organically as much as possible. I think you ate correct about ants there are a lot of different varieties, some more aggressive than others.

[rmitchell]

Tipi

I suspect the yellow jacket nest in your photo was dug out by a skunk. Had it been a bear the hole would have been more the size of a trash can.

The undisturbed yellow jacket holes that I've seen are not much bigger than the diameter of an index finger. Hard to spot. Most of my stings hiking have been on the calf so it's probably the nest is behind me by then. I've learned not to stop if stung, but to put some distance from the site. Then dig out the Benadryl.

I've also been stung on the hands while brushing. To get a better grip on the swing blade I don't wear gloves if it is warm. Carefully watch for the holes that are typically on slope where the trail is cut into the side hill. If I hear buzzing--run!

[OwenM]

After trying pretty much everything over the years, I agree on DEET being the only thing that really works. I use those little 2oz spray bottles from the travel section at WalMart to "repackage" it from larger containers.

I'm not a fan of insect repellant in general, but most of my hiking is in AL and TN, so ticks, mosquitoes and getting swarmed by gnats are just facts of life about 7 months out of the year. I always wear long pants, and usually a long sleeve nylon shirt over a synthetic T, even in the hottest weather, only spraying my ankles, wrists and neck.
Kind of ironic, but since neither heat nor cold bothers me much(but love to be cold), that means I wear the same clothing most of the time. I may have my sleeves rolled up or just wear the t-shirt at 40F, yet have the sleeves down and a Buff covering my ears in the 90s.
Stupid bugs...

[OwenM]

44746
When you know the bugs are really bad. Hate headnets, but I'll go there, especially for night hiking.

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi

I suspect the yellow jacket nest in your photo was dug out by a skunk. Had it been a bear the hole would have been more the size of a trash can.

The undisturbed yellow jacket holes that I've seen are not much bigger than the diameter of an index finger. Hard to spot. Most of my stings hiking have been on the calf so it's probably the nest is behind me by then. I've learned not to stop if stung, but to put some distance from the site. Then dig out the Benadryl.

I've also been stung on the hands while brushing. To get a better grip on the swing blade I don't wear gloves if it is warm. Carefully watch for the holes that are typically on slope where the trail is cut into the side hill. If I hear buzzing--run!

A great percentage of the yellow jacket nests I find (in the woods and on trails) have been dug apart by mammals---even though the nests may still be active---so they're easier to spot. Of course for the ones I don't spot I usually get tagged. And like you say, a hidden nest has a small opening and is impossible to find until it's too late.

And Pisgah NF yellow jackets are bigger and worse than Slickrock/Citico hornets---learned thru hard experience. By Pisgah I mean in the Wilson Creek backcountry---Upper Creek, Harper/North Harper, Raider Camp, Lost Cove Creek---and Steels Creek and Linville Gorge etc. Miss Nature breeds them big and mean and they'll chase you down for extra pain. On my last Pisgah trip I was bushwacking to connect Upper Creek to the Mountains to Sea trail and got hit by 5 of the bastardos---with one sting on my left ear producing weird black line "markers" in my eyes for several weeks.

The worst experience I ever had was heading out on a trip and bringing a can of Knudsen ginger ale for a mid-trip treat. I opened it up during a reststop and dangit if a yellow jacket didn't drop inside and I slurped him into my mouth whereby he stung the crap out of the inside of my lip. I spit him out fast and he walked away half-crippled but I didn't kill him because we both had a bad experience and I wanted him to have a good story to tell his grandkids.

[MuddyWaters]

The worst experience I ever had was heading out on a trip and bringing a can of Knudsen ginger ale for a mid-trip treat. I opened it up during a reststop and dangit if a yellow jacket didn't drop inside and I slurped him into my mouth whereby he stung the crap out of the inside of my lip. I spit him out fast and he walked away half-crippled but I didn't kill him because we both had a bad experience and I wanted him to have a good story to tell his grandkids.
When my daughter was about 8 a similar thing happened to her camping with can of sprite. Her bottom lip swelled up like a big shooter marble......but totally went away in several hrs as well.

[Tipi Walter]

44746
When you know the bugs are really bad. Hate headnets, but I'll go there, especially for night hiking.

My headnet is always part of my standard load and I'll bring it on my next trip (this month in March 2019) because if it's a hot March I'll need it. (We had "the hottest March on record" back in 2015---or was it 2016?---the bugs were bad and I didn't bring my headnet).

Here's some pics of Headnets in Action---

44747
My buddy Patman in his headnet on the North Fork Citico trail.

44748
My buddy Hootyhoo using a paint strainer for a headnet on the Brookshire Creek trail.

44749
Rain Man and Uncle Fungus in headnets on the South Fork Citico trail. Poor Sarah didn't have one, sob, but she's a USMC vet and can handle bugs.

[OwenM]

Teens to 20s on the night/s I'll be in TN this week, but the way February went, it could hit 80 next week and I wouldn't be surprised.
Didn't say it, but the headnet goes "just in case" as temps transition(and all dayhikes in warm weather), because I don't switch from ground sheet to mesh inner for my tent until I have to.
I like that even less than the headnet:mad:

[Dogwood]

Be alert for bands of trail pirates. They were last seen, one female two males, in the S Fork Citico vicinity. The leader has been known to raid CS's based on reports of him being seen hauling all manner of gear he looted. :D

[blw2]

question -- I know deet is damaging to plastics/equipment. Does it hurt dynema?

as for deet. I really do not like how most of those sprays make me feel. absolutely miserable....can hardly sleep if I put that on during the day.
I found the "Dry" stuff by off, cutter or similar is much better...almost no problem.

[OwenM]

Don't know about Dyneema. I read that DEET won't hurt it, but I read that on an internet forum somewhere, so you know what that's usually worth.
The reason I've tried so many alternatives is that I used to be into rock climbing, and didn't want DEET getting on my stuff. Maybe that was a waste, since it doesn't hurt nylon. I've got a bike helmet that one of my little spray bottles leaked onto, though, and it ate into the foam inside and part of the outer shell. Most definitely harms plastics, and that kind of thing will make you automatically not want to get it on anything else, either!