View Full Version : Ridgerunner Responsibilities
Mountain Soldier
03-09-2019, 20:50
Walking out of Clingerman Dome in a pretty significant ice, snow, rain and wind environment and I got shook down by a ridgerunner for my Smoky Permit. The guy was condescending and rude. I told him I had it in my pack or a receipt on my phone; he wanted my name - full name, not trail name. Bottom line, unless he was trying to earn his park ranger merit badge, he should stick to his responsibilities - trail maintenance and teaching LNT.
Emerson Bigills
03-09-2019, 21:06
I wasn't there so I can't comment on the "attitude" of the RR. I was also asked by a RR in the Smokies for my permit when I went through in 2017. Guy was polite and friendly. Whenever I am hiking on a permit, I try to keep it available just in case. Last year in the Sierra, I had four different rangers ask for my permit over a 12 day period. No problems and I took advantage of their knowledge and perspective.
My experience with Rangers and RR's has always been great. They are there to protect you from the Park and the Park from you. That is an important job.
MuddyWaters
03-09-2019, 21:30
1. Your attitude sucks.
2. Did you read line 3 on your permit?
Assuming you really had one.
if you can't show a permit don't look for sympathy from other people you're not going to find any from people that respect the rules.
Walking out of Clingerman Dome
I'm not familiar with that mountain... is it near Newfoundland Gap?
why are you surprised that he asked you for your full name?
trail names are not reality...........
from the compendium---
Permits a r e required for all overnight stays in thebackcounty, except for those nights spent at the MountLeConte Lodge. The permit must be in the camper'spossession while in the backcountry and must be exhibitedupon the demand of an authorized person
https://www.nps.gov/grsm/learn/management/upload/2014-Compendium-all.pdf
sounds like said person was doing his job....
so what's your beef again?
SkeeterPee
03-09-2019, 22:31
1. Your attitude sucks.
2. Did you read line 3 on your permit?
Assuming you really had one.
if you can't show a permit don't look for sympathy from other people you're not going to find any from people that respect the rules.
Your response made me wonder if RR's had any authority to ask for your permit. I don't even see any mention of them on the permit or NPS GSMNP website. I could have easily missed something, do you have any reference to their authorization to ask for a permit. Only thing I can find is that the permit must be attached to your pack or tent. It does not say it has to be visible.
Does anyone have more information?
from the compendium---
Permits a r e required for all overnight stays in thebackcounty, except for those nights spent at the MountLeConte Lodge. The permit must be in the camper'spossession while in the backcountry and must be exhibitedupon the demand of an authorized person
https://www.nps.gov/grsm/learn/management/upload/2014-Compendium-all.pdf
sounds like said person was doing his job....
so what's your beef again?
to play devil's advocate for a minute-
the OP is in an area thats often inundated with day hikers (ie people who don't need permits) so why bother and on what basis did he/she ask for the OP's permit? no permit was needed to be out hiking (assuming this was during daylight). do we just hassle people who appear to be carrying camping gear? what if someone carrying a backpack that vaguely appears to be larger than a daypack responds to "can i see your permit?" with "i'm just out for a day hike?" is the RR going to follow you until dark and see what you do?
this sort of maybe seems like a case where both parties are kind of being more difficult than was strictly speaking necessary.
4eyedbuzzard
03-09-2019, 22:44
Maybe the ridgerunner was trying to keep trash in the park to a minimum, you know "getting after it!"
update. sassafras shelter has a serious pile of trash , dirty site. ridgerunner - get after it!
AllDownhillFromHere
03-09-2019, 23:16
Was it a volunteer ATC RidgeRunner? Or a NPS employee?
Here's an article about the life of a ridge runner in the GSMNP. In the article he states that he checks permits and can give out permits on the spot for those who have not gotten one.
https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2014/04/meet-billy-jones-appalachian-trail-ridgerunner-great-smoky-mountains-national-park24845
SkeeterPee
03-09-2019, 23:23
Here's an article about the life of a ridge runner in the GSMNP. In the article he states that he checks permits and can give out permits on the spot for those who have not gotten one.
https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2014/04/meet-billy-jones-appalachian-trail-ridgerunner-great-smoky-mountains-national-park24845
Here is information about applying or the position. http://pnts.org/new/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Georgia-and-Great-Smoky-Mountains-Ridgerunner-Announcement-2019.pdf
Nothing mentions checking permits. It sounds like they are there to educate. A search of the NPS site has no mention of them so I suspect they have the same authority as anyone else on the trail that they can report problems to Park Rangers. They may ask for your permit, but can anyone find anything that says that you have to show it to someone who is not a NPS employee?
Define walking out of Clingmans Dome? On what trail from what start to what destination? Where were you originally coming from before Clingmans Dome? Share your behavior or what could have been perceived as questionable behavior prior to your RR incident? Were you rude?
You'll get asked much less about birth name or other ID when openly displaying a permit attached to the outside of the pack in a clear plastic fishing license case with multiple safety pins or in a clear plastic sheet on lanyard around the neck stored under a shirt. Sold anywhere they sell fishing licenses and HD, Lowes, left over from backstage passes, music venues, sold also at Office Max and WalMart etc. Or, some permits that are WP(many NP permits are) have attached strings or a twisty as do the GSMNP permits I'm most familiar. I may tie it on a strap and tuck the permit partly into a pocket. If I'm asked about having a permit I'll produce it fully and verify the permit's info. Easy peasy.
Checking a name with additional ID against the name and details on a hiking or camping permit is common procedure possibly more so when you don't openly display it which might be what led to the experience. Ridge runners can and will verify legality of permits. RR's do make judgments, and so will others, like it or not about legality and can call in professional LEOs if need be. Most RR's encounters dont need to take it that far as most folks are cooperative. I'll take it on myself as responsibility or with others to do it as well if we notice questionably legal shady scamming of the rules entitled BS.
Have you considered GSMNP is the most visited NP in the U.S.? Have you considered the AT is one of if the most competitive places to obtain a permit? Have you considered the NPS budget isn't what it should or could be and there was a recent gov't shutdown resulting in the NPS scrambling to catch up so could currently be a bit spread thin ? Have you considered working with authorities and those who may have greater insight rather than rebelling against them?
MuddyWaters
03-09-2019, 23:57
The ridgerunners are hired representatives of the ATC. Who report to....NPS.
If they request to see a permit where one is required for the AT, it is because they must have authority to do so.
Yes, most of their work is clean up, reporting on trail conditions, and teaching people about proper trail behavior. Two out of three of those is a shame that it's necessary. They are not tasked with enforcement, but that does not mean they can't or shouldnt report people breaking rules or laws to jurisdictional authorities. Although typically they take a role to try and help people to obey the rules, as opposed to punishing them for not doing so.
However, if someone's a di@k....
Line 3
44801
4eyedbuzzard
03-10-2019, 00:00
..........
[QUOTE=MuddyWaters;2240175]The ridgerunners are hired representatives of the ATC. Who report to....NPS.
(/QUOTE]
not 100% sure on this but i think in GSMNP what we're calling a ridgerunner exists and functions outside of the AT, which leads me to believe they aren't ATC employees.
MuddyWaters
03-10-2019, 00:37
[QUOTE=MuddyWaters;2240175]The ridgerunners are hired representatives of the ATC. Who report to....NPS.
(/QUOTE]
not 100% sure on this but i think in GSMNP what we're calling a ridgerunner exists and functions outside of the AT, which leads me to believe they aren't ATC employees.
Ridgerunners in gsmnp are still ATC employees.
But they also carry radios and can call LE rangers if needed.
if someone doesn't have the permit typically I understand they can issue you one. You pay for it after you leave the park. You have 72 hours. For them to behave otherwise is interesting........
You thought you could provide a fictitious name and you'd be good?
Next bridge loan I'm going to sign it Mr. Dogwood. :cool:
[QUOTE=tdoczi;2240178]
Ridgerunners in gsmnp are still ATC employees.
But they also carry radios and can call LE rangers if needed.
if someone doesn't have the permit typically I understand they can issue you one. You pay for it after you leave the park. You have 72 hours. For them to behave otherwise is interesting........
so even though the permit system is park wide there is a special group of permit checking people who only do so on the AT and not elsewhere in the park? and these people have special access to the park's permit system (would that be for the whole park or just the AT?)
thats so dumb it has to be true.
MuddyWaters
03-10-2019, 01:46
[QUOTE=MuddyWaters;2240179]
so even though the permit system is park wide there is a special group of permit checking people who only do so on the AT and not elsewhere in the park? and these people have special access to the park's permit system (would that be for the whole park or just the AT?)
thats so dumb it has to be true.
well, since ridgerunner is only on the AT they have no reason to check or issue permits for anywhere else in the park. To issue a permit, I'm guessing all they do is radio the backcountry office and get them to do it. whether or not they have a paper permit to give you at that point I have no idea.
However Park rangers, can also be on the AT and can check permit and issue permits , or assist in changing permits, as well as in the rest of the park too.
the OP is in an area thats often inundated with day hikers (ie people who don't need permits) so why bother and on what basis did he/she ask for the OP's permit?
clingmans dome road is closed for the season......
so one would stick out like a sore thumb up there right now...
and most ridgerunners can tell the difference between someone backpacking and dayhiking.....
and more importantly, if OP did have permit----all this could have been avoided if they just showed it to ridgerunner...
so even though the permit system is park wide there is a special group of permit checking people who only do so on the AT and not elsewhere in the park? and these people have special access to the park's permit system (would that be for the whole park or just the AT?)
it's ridgerunners checking permits on the AT-----which is the most traveled trail for backpackers in the Park.....
there's no other trail that gets that amount of backpacker traffic.....
and the ridgerunners can check anyone's permit that is hiking the AT even if they are going to campsites not located on the AT........
they can use their park issued radio and call in to dispatch and check permit.....
illabelle
03-10-2019, 05:58
One of the OP's complaints was that there was "significant" snow/rain/wind. The permit is just something you print out on your computer. It's not a tag you hang on your pack. It's not durable at all. If it got hauled out during the rain, it would not survive long, possibly becoming unreadable. No one wants to dig through their pack in poor weather - not me, not any of you. Whether or not the ridgerunner was authorized to ask questions, pulling out the permit in the rain is still an irritation.
It's possible to defend the ridgerunner and discourage rule-breakers without piling onto someone who just asked a question. Seems like a few of us just want to get our punch in. There's a lot of information missing about the situation, and the OP hasn't been back to fill in the details. Taking sides, passing judgment, condemnation - it all seems a bit premature.
Just my opinion.
without piling onto someone who just asked a question...........Taking sides, passing judgment, condemnation
but, OP didn't ask a question-------came right out with a statement putting a ridgerunner done for doing their job.....
i think the entitled attitude of "hey, im better than a ridgerunner, and even if it's snowing, i'm going to not show my permit or give my real name" that prompted some of the responses.....
after all----a permit can be put in a ziplock bag, and in an easy place in the pack, and pulled out........and as i stated earlier----trail names are not reality.......reservations and permits have to be done under real names..............
but, based on another thread OP started----sounds like they have issues with ridgerunners all together.....
Furlough
03-10-2019, 08:28
[QUOTE=tdoczi;2240178]Ridgerunners in gsmnp are still ATC employees. But they also carry radios and can call LE rangers if needed. if someone doesn't have the permit typically I understand they can issue you one. You pay for it after you leave the park. You have 72 hours. For them to behave otherwise is interesting........
And (in addition to the Permit MW showed earlier) The Compendium says - In all cases a permit or letter of authorization must be in the permit’ee'spossession at all times and exhibited to any authorized person upon request. File: Compendium\Compendium2014.doc; December 2014
Given that a RR can issue a permit it seems rather intuitive that GSMNP has enabled them to ask to see a permit.
In the park the ridgrunners are not police officers, no badge, no gun. They do have a uniform and ID indicating they work in the park and do have authority to ask to see your permit. (You should read that permit). They can't detain or arrest you unless you are in the act of a felony. They have a radio and will call a ranger who has a badge. Nobody has the right to be snotty, rude or un professional. You or the ridge runner.
Furlough
03-10-2019, 08:40
Here is information about applying or the position. http://pnts.org/new/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Georgia-and-Great-Smoky-Mountains-Ridgerunner-Announcement-2019.pdf Nothing mentions checking permits. It sounds like they are there to educate. A search of the NPS site has no mention of them so I suspect they have the same authority as anyone else on the trail that they can report problems to Park Rangers. They may ask for your permit, but can anyone find anything that says that you have to show it to someone who is not a NPS employee?
What you may not be able to find on the GSMNP web site is the NPS requirement for NPS volunteers to sign a Government Optional Form 301A - Volunteer Service Agreement. In this form the individual Park can detail the specifics of the functions an individual is performing. As an example, even though PATC has been building and maintaining Trail in Shenandoah National Park since before it was a National Park, I as a trail maintainer, as of Sep 2018 am required to sign the OF301A before being allowed to volunteer my time to maintaining the trails in SNP. So, I would not be surprised that GSMNP does the same for RR and spells out on that form what their duties are. As you are required to provide personal information on this form, the signed forms are not made public.
[QUOTE=tdoczi;2240183]
well, since ridgerunner is only on the AT they have no reason to check or issue permits for anywhere else in the park. To issue a permit, I'm guessing all they do is radio the backcountry office and get them to do it. whether or not they have a paper permit to give you at that point I have no idea.
However Park rangers, can also be on the AT and can check permit and issue permits , or assist in changing permits, as well as in the rest of the park too.
the person i met in the park, who i'm assuming was a ridgerunner, had an ipad hooked into the park's permit issuing system.
clingmans dome road is closed for the season......
so one would stick out like a sore thumb up there right now...
and most ridgerunners can tell the difference between someone backpacking and dayhiking.....
and more importantly, if OP did have permit----all this could have been avoided if they just showed it to ridgerunner...
with all that being the case one could also then wonder why a ridgerunner was even out
Furlough
03-10-2019, 08:47
One of the OP's complaints was that there was "significant" snow/rain/wind. The permit is just something you print out on your computer. It's not a tag you hang on your pack. It's not durable at all. If it got hauled out during the rain, it would not survive long, possibly becoming unreadable. No one wants to dig through their pack in poor weather - not me, not any of you. Whether or not the ridgerunner was authorized to ask questions, pulling out the permit in the rain is still an irritation.
All true. Because of the non-durability issue, I keep mine in a zip bag in my pocket. It is protected, and easily accessible and legible.
Pringles
03-10-2019, 09:21
I haven’t been in the Smokys in a while. The parks I frequent (Yellowstone and Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore) have permits that are either printed on a Tyvek type paper, or they give you a little plastic bag. You’re always supposed to have them either attached to the outside of your pack, or to your tent. I’ve gotten (gently) chewed out a few times because I usually keep mine in my pocket. While hiking in the Tetons, I had the permit attached to my pack and a wind left me with nothing but the twisty. The ranger looked at me and said, “So I have to cite you for littering, too?” Then he told me I looked honest and that he figured I did have a permit. The rangers/ridge runners are often mirrors to what you bring to the conversation.
with all that being the case one could also then wonder why a ridgerunner was even out
because thru hiker season has started....
and thrus are coming through the park already......
that was also the case when i stayed at mt collins shelter a few years ago at beginning of march----road closed, ridgerunner stayed with us at shelter, and shelter was full of hikers.......
maybe it had something to do with the idea of concern of someone out hiking in rather dangerous conditions...significant snow/rain/wind......
I can picture a person....a Barney Fife complex type perhaps...that sees a hiker that might be a novice not knowing the danger that they are in fact in....maybe prompting a shakedown as part of the educate function of their job.
Just speculating here...for campfire discussion brainstorming purposes.....
When I did my thru hike there was a ridge runner at the Mollies Ridge shelter checking permits. He was also taking a count of thru hikers. He was courteous and professional. Many years ago my brother and I were heading SOBO and the Smokys did not have a provision for thru hikers. We had to get a permit at Fontana Village and the ranger told us where we would be staying. When we got to Ice Water Springs a ranger came thru and checked permits. There were 5 people with invalid permits. He told 2 to move along to their proper destination for the night. After the ranger left they started talking tough and were cussing out the ranger. They didn't move on and later that night when the 5 people who had reservations arrived these tough guys never said a peep. Even though ridge runners don't carry a gun and a badge they should be treated with respect. I would guess most are not doing this job for the money but for the love of the trail.
Christoph
03-10-2019, 11:52
If you keep your permit in a ziplock and readily accessible, I really don't see the issue (just show it and be on your way. No need for an exercise in rights, leave that crap at home or on Youtube), except the unprofessional part. But being that, just relying on the original post and one one other about RR's on here from the OP, I can only say it's safe to assume the attitude given is what was most likely received at the start.
Feral Bill
03-10-2019, 12:29
At Mt Rainier, permits are issued in a zip lock bag with a twist tie to attach to the pack. It rains there, hard and often, yet the permits survive and are checked with a quick glance. I strongly suspect the OP is the one with an attitude problem.
I see no evidence presented that the RR was rude or condescending or overstepped their bounds. It's subjective speculation to assume the RR behaved inappropriately. Even if it is accurate the RR was so what. Do yourself and others a BIG favor! Learn to move on instead of being offended...instead of wasting energy and carrying around unnecessary emotional baggage influencing others to also share in being offended. http://meanttobehappy.com/10-ways-you-too-can-stop-being-so-easily-offended/
What I see is someone wanting their emotions(feelings) validated. What makes me immediately suspicious of a clouded judgmental account is when one ignores the details surrounding their own actions only pointing to possible and unproven allegations of the other party. Rampant today is demanding and expecting subjective feelings validated. The facts can be ignored to cater to subjective feelings(emotions). And, some are so offended they will leverage anything to achieve feeling emotionally validated. Some of the reasons why this is done are listed in the provided link. Emotional feelings may not represent reality!
Then he told me I looked honest and that he figured I did have a permit. The rangers/ridge runners are often mirrors to what you bring to the conversation.
How true.
What you're doing is bringing into consideration the impacts of our own behaviors. We are not backpacking in alienated bubbles experiencing encounters as if they all fell out of the sky.
When I did my thru hike there was a ridge runner at the Mollies Ridge shelter checking permits. He was also taking a count of thru hikers. He was courteous and professional. Many years ago my brother and I were heading SOBO and the Smokys did not have a provision for thru hikers. We had to get a permit at Fontana Village and the ranger told us where we would be staying. When we got to Ice Water Springs a ranger came thru and checked permits. There were 5 people with invalid permits. He told 2 to move along to their proper destination for the night. After the ranger left they started talking tough and were cussing out the ranger. They didn't move on and later that night when the 5 people who had reservations arrived these tough guys never said a peep. Even though ridge runners don't carry a gun and a badge they should be treated with respect. I would guess most are not doing this job for the money but for the love of the trail.
This has happened to others and myself in GSMNP on the AT three separate times I know of. It's self absorbed the rules don't apply to me I'll impose on others I'm responsible only to self behavior. I've learned when obtaining my GSMNP permits to ascertain the expected occupancy. I overwhelming tend to obtain walk up permits at the last moment. If others and myself get at the shelter and it's highly over occupied we'll take ask everyone why. We'll take it on ourselves having valid paid permits to display them and ask for everyone else to do likewise if need be. Whether I'm alone or with others we'll confront this behavior. Often, its' someone, the quiet or defensive ones, illegally staying there imposing on others who have the legal paid right to stay there ahead of them. It's often someone with a defensive BS slick talking story excusing their illegal BS self serving behavior. I'll confront this shart personally. And, if that doesn't make the offenders come clean I'll inform Rangers who these people are as IMO it's our responsibility to all in the backpacking community to be held accountable. I'll go out of my way to do this as you've gone out of your way to be a d#@k is my mindset. This applies to me! With others in the shelter or CS area also having valid permits we've collectively thrown the slick talking BS the rules don't apply to me offenders out of the shelter or area. If we will not individually manage ourselves to some standard to which we've agreed than others will do it for you.
I've seen this slick talking entitled self absorbed behavior that crosses the line into illegal behavior increasing on trails.
fastfoxengineering
03-10-2019, 16:11
I met a ridge runner in the smokies on the AT last year.. she was really cool and I like the way she asked about me and a friends permits.
She didnt ask for my name or to see my permit...
She said did you have any trouble getting a permit? No.
Where did you get it? Top of Georgia Hostel.
Perfect.. non intrusive, kind, easy going. She knew I had one without even asking to see it.
If i responded with .. online... she probably would have asked to see it.
Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk
HooKooDooKu
03-10-2019, 17:55
With an OP having only 4 posts... It sure sounds like you've been TROLLED!!!
Either that or perhaps this guy didn't have a permit... After all, if anyone with any authority asks to see your permit, the proper response for someone hiking legal would be to show the permit, not complain if the person technically has authority over permits or not... And the fact he is complaining about having to give his legal name doesn't lend much credibility to the notion he was hiking legal.
LucyInColor
03-10-2019, 21:13
I just want to send a little love to any past, current & future Ridge Runners who might feel maligned or underappreciated by this thread. I think Ridge Runners rock! They're like a walking talking information booth, and you don't have to wait in line. Ridge Runners have told me about lesser known water sources, trail conditions, where to find better re-supplies, the time & place to catch the best sunrise (one even hiked down to my campsite to make sure I didn't miss it), current bear activity, etc. If I hit the panic button on my GPS there's a good chance a Ridge Runner will reach me before search & rescue does. They pack out trash, clean up fire pits, clean the Privy's (OMG!), report or just fix trail maintenance problems and make the AT a nicer place for all of us. I think they really are the good guys.
LucyInColor is quite colorful, very bright. That's a high quality post!
HooKooDooKu
03-10-2019, 23:50
LucyInColor, I totally agree. I am also very grateful that ridge runners are in GSMNP.
Starchild
03-11-2019, 07:22
The ridgerunners are hired representatives of the ATC. Who report to....NPS.
If they request to see a permit where one is required for the AT, it is because they must have authority to do so.
....
From a former smokes RR they have no authority at all - their function is educational, maintenance, reporting.
The RR can request the permit, to the degree that anyone can request to see your permit, the hiker can refuse, RR can call/radio for a LEO if they feel it is needed - refusal to show is normally not something to be radioed in except for info purposes and if a LEO is nearby they may visit and officially request. The RR is a employee of ATC, not the NPS. At least in the Smokies.
I had some initially refuse but IIRC everyone showed after explaining why I wanted to see them, which was for shelter space, making sure that everyone had a space and no one was taking a spot of a permitted sleeper, as the shelters were almost always full. Also I could help them if they were 'off sequence' by redoing their permit in the field. I could also issue a field permit if they didn't have one.
Sometimes I would explain it to them that sleeping in a shelter is like staying at a hotel, you need a reservation. I am the front desk and while they don't have to show me their permit, I have to take it as a illegal guest and report it to the authorities.
Uncle Joe
03-14-2019, 22:15
If you feel you were treated poorly by a RR you should report that incident to the ATC. Perhaps others have as well and it could be a pattern with that person. I'm sure by far most are doing a thankless job as best they can for the love of the trail. There are always outliers, of course. I recall a couple of years ago a RR really being rude at Gooch Gap. Several people had commented about it and it seemed obvious this guy was being very pushy and rude. I believe he was reported as well. Perhaps it was a misunderstanding and some re-education was in order. Perhaps he's a better RR today because of it. Worse case, he wasn't cut out for the job and has been relieved. There's nothing wrong with relaying to the ATC that you had a bad experience. It could be a one-off or it could be they need to speak to the person about being a better ambassador.
MuddyWaters
03-14-2019, 22:35
The RR can request the permit, to the degree that anyone can request to see your permit, the hiker can refuse, RR can call/radio for a LEO if they feel it is needed - refusal to show is normally not something to be radioed in except for info purposes and if a LEO is nearby they may visit and officially request. The RR is a employee of ATC, not the NPS. At least in the Smokies.
I'd say as an ATC representative, a ridgerunner does have the authority to request to see a permit. Further every interview I've seen with Smokies ridge runners they have all said that they request to see permits. Now you may not have any authority to do anything about it if they don't comply , but you can radio a LE ranger and so that alone is some enforcement ability.
And while ridge runners are not employed directly by the NPS, the ATC is. The NPS grants the right to oversee the AT to the ATC, and ATC is accountable to them for management of it. The ATC also receive significant federal funding for it, something like 25% of their total expenses I think. So while you may not be directly employed by your bosses boss..... You do work for them . Like it or not. It's their national scenic trail, and something like 45% of it is directly on federal land. The NPS used federal funds to aquire the lions share of the protected corridor as well. The 250,000 acres of AT protected lands is a significant land holding in NPS system
middle to middle
03-14-2019, 23:10
They suck, I always stealth !
HooKooDooKu
03-15-2019, 00:01
They suck, I always stealth !
The OP discussed encountering a RR in GSMNP, and many of the comments have specifically been about RRs in GSMNP (especially since much of this discussion has been in regard to requesting permits, and GSMNP is one of the few locations along the AT permits are required).
In that context, you are promoting an illegal activity.
In GSMNP, you are legally required to camp in the designated camping locations. Given the limited camping locations and the popularity of GSMNP, pretty much any definition of "stealth" camping would be illegal.
4eyedbuzzard
03-15-2019, 06:30
I'd say as an ATC representative, a ridgerunner does have the authority to request to see a permit. Further every interview I've seen with Smokies ridge runners they have all said that they request to see permits. Now you may not have any authority to do anything about it if they don't comply , but you can radio a LE ranger and so that alone is some enforcement ability.
And while ridge runners are not employed directly by the NPS, the ATC is. The NPS grants the right to oversee the AT to the ATC, and ATC is accountable to them for management of it. The ATC also receive significant federal funding for it, something like 25% of their total expenses I think. So while you may not be directly employed by your bosses boss..... You do work for them . Like it or not. It's their national scenic trail, and something like 45% of it is directly on federal land. The NPS used federal funds to aquire the lions share of the protected corridor as well. The 250,000 acres of AT protected lands is a significant land holding in NPS systemPerhaps just semantics, but it's our National Scenic Trail. But otherwise, yeah, because collectively We The People do cede management of it to various agencies. It's also an interesting example of a pretty successfully coordinated management of a publicly owned resource by multiple non-government organizations, largely coordinated by ATC. AMC, PATC, MATC, et al, State and local Parks, land acquired by conservation organizations, etc. all work together for our trail. Anyway, off to work, where I'll probably face some encroachment on my liberties by someone with a little authority. I'll probably just show them my papers if asked.
stephanD
03-15-2019, 09:06
Much ado about nothing. Just show the damn permit. What is the big deal?
They suck, I always stealth !
what prompts a 78 year old person who has been a member of this site for 14 years but has barely posted to decide one day in march at nearly midnight to log in and interject such a useful addition to the conversation? gotta be a good story there.
stephanD
03-15-2019, 09:11
what prompts a 78 year old person who has been a member of this site for 14 years but has barely posted to decide one day in march at nearly midnight to log in and interject such a useful addition to the conversation? gotta be a good story there.
I kind of was thinking the same, but out of respect to this gentleman's mature age, I decided not to respond.
I kind of was thinking the same, but out of respect to this gentleman's mature age, I decided not to respond.
my best shot at an explanation is that it was posted by someone else who found his/her account logged in, was bored and felt like spicying it up by saying something moronic. like a 16 year old grandson or something.
Starchild
03-15-2019, 10:42
I'd say as an ATC representative, a ridgerunner does have the authority to request to see a permit. Further every interview I've seen with Smokies ridge runners they have all said that they request to see permits. Now you may not have any authority to do anything about it if they don't comply , but you can radio a LE ranger and so that alone is some enforcement ability.
As I read this you basically restated what you quoted of me, RR can request, hiker can refuse - end of the 'power'. Now yes the RR can call a ranger, however so can anyone. RR is not enforcement, and can not enforce. Now a ranger may take a RR's request more seriously due to the professional relationship. Which gets to your second paragraph.
And while ridge runners are not employed directly by the NPS, the ATC is. The NPS grants the right to oversee the AT to the ATC, and ATC is accountable to them for management of it. The ATC also receive significant federal funding for it, something like 25% of their total expenses I think. So while you may not be directly employed by your bosses boss..... You do work for them . Like it or not. It's their national scenic trail, and something like 45% of it is directly on federal land. The NPS used federal funds to acquire the lions share of the protected corridor as well. The 250,000 acres of AT protected lands is a significant land holding in NPS system
The amount of interagency and club interaction and cooperation of the ridge runner and all related parties is staggering to be involved in. And they can and do influence RR activities, but ultimately, in the ideal, it falls directly to ATC and it's mission in regards to the AT. In practice the ATC does allow a lot of other agencies to get it's say, and influence policy (and routing), and some of that influence comes from continuing donations to ATC from clubs . IIRC the Smoky Mountain Club actually donated the RR salaries (in whole or in part), and in that 'buys' a lot of say. However this does not lead in any way to enforcement ability on behalf of the RR, it is education, maintenance and reporting that is the job of the RR.
HooKooDooKu
03-15-2019, 14:08
Much ado about nothing. Just show the damn permit. What is the big deal?
If you don't have a permit to show... that's when it's a big deal.
I all but directly accused the OP of not having a permit... but they haven't been back to add to the conversation.
Starchild
03-15-2019, 14:11
If you don't have a permit to show... that's when it's a big deal.
I all but directly accused the OP of not having a permit... but they haven't been back to add to the conversation.
But this is where the RR can help, they can issue field permits on the spot (assuming radio reception in that spot) which could get them out of a ticket if the friendly ranger comes along.
MuddyWaters
03-15-2019, 16:39
If you don't have a permit to show... that's when it's a big deal.
I all but directly accused the OP of not having a permit... but they haven't been back to add to the conversation.
Yep.
Not a big deal at all ....when u have one.
But this is where the RR can help, they can issue field permits on the spot (assuming radio reception in that spot) which could get them out of a ticket if the friendly ranger comes along.
i say they should have the permit before entering the Park...
it should be part of the planning process....
and there's enough resources nowadaze to research this info...
this aint the 1980's anymore.....
4eyedbuzzard
03-15-2019, 17:41
...The amount of interagency and club interaction and cooperation of the ridge runner and all related parties is staggering to be involved in ...
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/home/about-us/regional-partnerships
SkeeterPee
03-15-2019, 23:27
I think it is a big deal. I don't go backpacking to give up my civil rights. If you are obeying the law they have no right to ask for your papers. And I would be surprised if rangers can legally require your papers either. They probably ask the RR to do this to avoid lawsuits for the NPS. Personally I do not want to encounter that on the trail.
kolokolo
03-16-2019, 00:16
Seriously - you don't think rangers can legally ask to see your permit?
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So if in your mind you are obeying the law NP Rangers have no legal right to verify that in fact you are obeying the law?
Section 1.6 Permits, 36 CFR 1.6(f) - (regarding Backcountry Camping Permits) - Permits will be specific in nature to the activity being permitted. In those cases where permit use is frequent a specific permit form has been designed, i.e. backcountry permit, campground fee permit, commercial photography//filming permit. In most other cases a special use permit or letter of authorization will be prepared laying out the specific conditions under which the permitted activity is authorized. In all cases a permit or letter of authorization must be in the permit’ee’s possession at all times and exhibited to any authorized person upon request.
https://www.nps.gov/grsm/learn/management/upload/2014-Compendium-all.pdf
Traillium
03-16-2019, 00:27
I don't go backpacking to give up my civil rights.
As a Canadian, I try to be mindful that while I have rights, they come included with civic responsibilities.
I fail to see how my civic responsibilities would not include me showing a permit.
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SkeeterPee
03-16-2019, 00:33
Seriously - you don't think rangers can legally ask to see your permit?
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The images I can find for the permit and the GSMNP web site do not seem to have any rules that you need to show the permit, but you do need to carry it. No where does it say it needs to be displayed to a RR or Ranger. In general, the courts have ruled that police can't stop you legally without probable cause of a crime. If they see you walk into the park and not file your permit, that would be probable cause, or if you are illegally camping. But if you are minding your own business, they could ask, but I don't know if they could legally stop you. I do plan to have one when I go through the park, I would not show a RR, but would a Ranger as it would not be worth the hassle not to show them.
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SkeeterPee
03-16-2019, 00:41
So if in your mind you are obeying the law NP Rangers have no legal right to verify that in fact you are obeying the law?
Section 1.6 Permits, 36 CFR 1.6(f) - (regarding Backcountry Camping Permits) - Permits will be specific in nature to the activity being permitted. In those cases where permit use is frequent a specific permit form has been designed, i.e. backcountry permit, campground fee permit, commercial photography//filming permit. In most other cases a special use permit or letter of authorization will be prepared laying out the specific conditions under which the permitted activity is authorized. In all cases a permit or letter of authorization must be in the permit’ee’s possession at all times and exhibited to any authorized person upon request.
https://www.nps.gov/grsm/learn/management/upload/2014-Compendium-all.pdf
Good someone finally found a link saying you need to show a permit
But RR's are not mentioned at all. Can you find the authorized person list?
MuddyWaters
03-16-2019, 01:59
Good someone finally found a link saying you need to show a permit
But RR's are not mentioned at all. Can you find the authorized person list?
In 36 CFR
Authorized person means an employee or agent of the National Park Service with delegated authority .
ATC employees are not federal employees and are not governed by CFR.
However the ATC is an agent of The NPS.
As part of the Ridge Runners job is to issue permits to people who don't have them, it's pretty clear that they've been given authority to ask if people have them in order to ascertain that.
They cannot force people to comply.
But with the radio they can be a tattle tale and call an LE Ranger. This is no different from you or I calling the Backcountry office and reporting a suspected violator, because RR is not NPS employee. But, due to a working relationship with the park, their report might be taken more seriously.
Furlough
03-16-2019, 06:51
The images I can find for the permit and the GSMNP web site do not seem to have any rules that you need to show the permit, but you do need to carry it. No where does it say it needs to be displayed to a RR or Ranger. In general, the courts have ruled that police can't stop you legally without probable cause of a crime. If they see you walk into the park and not file your permit, that would be probable cause, or if you are illegally camping. But if you are minding your own business, they could ask, but I don't know if they could legally stop you. I do plan to have one when I go through the park, I would not show a RR, but would a Ranger as it would not be worth the hassle not to show them. Go back and read post #25.
Furlough
03-16-2019, 06:52
Good someone finally found a link saying you need to show a permit But RR's are not mentioned at all. Can you find the authorized person list?
Go back and read post #27.
another thought from my one encounter with a RR in the smokies-
while hiking in rain and sleet i encountered him heading in the opposite direction from me. we stopped and chatted about conditions for a second, he asked if there were many other people out, how i was doing, things like that. he did not ask to see my permit. this was in a place where there are few if any day hikers ever.
in a bit i got to a shelter just as it started to hale and thunder and lightning and the wind kicked up several notches. a few minutes later he arrived at the shelter too, having turned back. after sometime, several more hikers started showing up. THEN he started checking permits.
more and more it seems to me like hiker meets RR in the pouring rain and asks to see permit and hiker angrily refuses is a case of two people with less than optimal attitudes encountering each other. it does happen. there doesnt need to be 1 person who is right and one person who is wrong.
MuddyWaters
03-16-2019, 07:39
The images I can find for the permit and the GSMNP web site do not seem to have any rules that you need to show the permit, but you do need to carry it. No where does it say it needs to be displayed to a RR or Ranger. In general, the courts have ruled that police can't stop you legally without probable cause of a crime. If they see you walk into the park and not file your permit, that would be probable cause, or if you are illegally camping. But if you are minding your own business, they could ask, but I don't know if they could legally stop you. I do plan to have one when I go through the park, I would not show a RR, but would a Ranger as it would not be worth the hassle not to show them.
You didnt look very well
You are confusing law and codified regulations
The basic rules for national park and forest lands are spelled out in section 36, Code of Federal Regulations. Its clearly in there.
In addition. There are specialized compendium of orders for individual areas and parks, as well as binding changes enacted by superintendents between issues of above documents.
When your on property under someones elses control, you must comply with their rules, or you are not welcome. You can be forcibly legally removed.
Under your twisted concept of law, a movie theater cant ask to see an admission ticket, or stop you from entering if you dont want to show it.
Starchild
03-16-2019, 08:19
[QUOTE=tdoczi;2240183]
well, since ridgerunner is only on the AT they have no reason to check or issue permits for anywhere else in the park. To issue a permit, I'm guessing all they do is radio the backcountry office and get them to do it. whether or not they have a paper permit to give you at that point I have no idea.....
To this yes we carried them - standard forms that writes IIRC in triplicate, and made the reservation through BCO on the radio or cell phone on their behalf - standard and thru hiker permits could be issued this way. In a pinch we could totally hand write them, as long as they had the reservation number, and a reasonable excuse why they didn't have the paper they should be fine with that, but technically they are not in compliance.
Starchild
03-16-2019, 08:21
What you may not be able to find on the GSMNP web site is the NPS requirement for NPS volunteers to sign a Government Optional Form 301A - Volunteer Service Agreement. In this form the individual Park can detail the specifics of the functions an individual is performing. As an example, even though PATC has been building and maintaining Trail in Shenandoah National Park since before it was a National Park, I as a trail maintainer, as of Sep 2018 am required to sign the OF301A before being allowed to volunteer my time to maintaining the trails in SNP. So, I would not be surprised that GSMNP does the same for RR and spells out on that form what their duties are. As you are required to provide personal information on this form, the signed forms are not made public.
I don't believe this is true, I don't recall signing anything like this with the NPS, though I may be mis-remembering. The forms signed are with ATC.
Furlough
03-16-2019, 08:45
I don't believe this is true, I don't recall signing anything like this with the NPS, though I may be mis-remembering. The forms signed are with ATC.
Sorry but it is true for SNP. I have had to do this. PATC trail maintainers are now required to sign the OF 301A and provide it to the SNP office. PATC trail maintainers received notification of this requirement through our PATC District managers late last summer. We signed, scanned then sent the form directly to the SNP office. If you actually read what I said IRT to GSMNP "I would not be surprised that GSMNP does the same for RR and spells out on that form what their duties are.", it should be clear that I am speculating that the GSMNP folks may do the same as the SNP folks. The OF301A is a form for the NPS not for ATC (or in my case PATC). As per the ATC website I have no doubt RRs sign and provide documentation to ATC. But the NPS can and clearly does have it's own forms it can require for folks volunteering in the Parks under their authority. Whether or not they do this in all parks I have no way of knowing.
dwcoyote
03-16-2019, 09:07
People just amaze me with their attitude toward following the rules. As someone who has had issues of people being at shelters and campsite they were not suppose to be at and then me trying to get the space that I was approved for, I am glad people are asking for permits because hopefully it keeps me from having to deal with people who are not considerate of the rules.
4eyedbuzzard
03-16-2019, 09:37
I think it is a big deal. I don't go backpacking to give up my civil rights. If you are obeying the law they have no right to ask for your papers. And I would be surprised if rangers can legally require your papers either. They probably ask the RR to do this to avoid lawsuits for the NPS. Personally I do not want to encounter that on the trail.It comes as a surprise to you that a U.S. NPS Ranger, sworn to enforce the laws and regulations of the US, armed with badge and gun and with powers of arrest, can legally demand to see your NPS issued permit while on NPS lands? Fascinating.
FreeGoldRush
03-16-2019, 09:58
I think it is a big deal. I don't go backpacking to give up my civil rights. If you are obeying the law they have no right to ask for your papers. And I would be surprised if rangers can legally require your papers either. They probably ask the RR to do this to avoid lawsuits for the NPS. Personally I do not want to encounter that on the trail.
Keep in mind where you are. If you were walking to the store and intimidating agents frequently said, "Papers please!" to be sure you had proper travel documents, then you'd have a point. But that isn't what is going on here. They're just ensuring shelter space. I'm fine with someone managing shelter space, even if it is done during a brief meeting 3 miles from the shelter. Can they do it legally? It doesn't matter. They'll just change the law to fit their needs. You won't get anywhere by trying to be a lawyer about it.
gpburdelljr
03-16-2019, 23:35
People just amaze me with their attitude toward following the rules. As someone who has had issues of people being at shelters and campsite they were not suppose to be at and then me trying to get the space that I was approved for, I am glad people are asking for permits because hopefully it keeps me from having to deal with people who are not considerate of the rules.
I agree. To understand why there are rules, and people to enforce them, all you have to do is look at what happened at Joshua Tree NP, and other NPs, during the recent goverment shutdown when there was no enforcement.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/11/us/california-joshua-trees-cut-down-during-shutdown-trnd/index.html
To understand why there are rules, and people to enforce them, all you have to do is look at what happened at Joshua Tree NP, and other NPs, during the recent goverment shutdown when there was no enforcement.
yup......
and understand when rules are broken..........things change.......
rules being broken is what led to the change in the permitting system of GSMNP........
LittleRock
03-18-2019, 09:21
and understand when rules are broken..........things change.......
rules being broken is what led to the change in the permitting system of GSMNP........
Exactly. Too many people breaking the rules generally leads to stricter rules and tougher enforcement, which ultimately leads to a less pleasant experience for everyone.
stephanD
03-18-2019, 09:50
I think it is a big deal. I don't go backpacking to give up my civil rights. If you are obeying the law they have no right to ask for your papers. And I would be surprised if rangers can legally require your papers either. They probably ask the RR to do this to avoid lawsuits for the NPS. Personally I do not want to encounter that on the trail.
A rebel without a cause. Those 18/19 years old kids are not a threat to your civil rights. I never was a RR myself, but i can only assume that those young men and women do this thankless job out of pure love of nature and our parks and our wilderness areas. And they are a great source of information of which they would love to share with you.
Exactly. Too many people breaking the rules generally leads to stricter rules and tougher enforcement, which ultimately leads to a less pleasant experience for everyone.
Or a better experience......