View Full Version : Bear Canister
spfleisig
03-13-2019, 07:36
Sorry for the stupid question, but if you are carrying a bear canister and there is no bear box or such, where do you leave it overnight? In your tent? Outside but close to your tent? Anywhere you feel like it?
Thx
SoaknWet
03-13-2019, 07:44
I would not keep it inside your tent. Remember you are handling it with the same hands you handle and eat your food with.
I walk thru the woods at least 100 paces from my tent and hide it behind a tree or rock. I have bright tape on it so I can see it from a distance. And, like anytime I walk into the woods away from my camp, I pay careful attention to where I'm going. it's very easy to get lost in the woods when walking even a short distance. Lots of tricks to help you avoid that. That's a different topic and there are plenty of threads here on that, plus a Google search on "keeping from getting lost in the woods" should bring plenty of helpful info.
Pringles
03-13-2019, 08:27
I keep mine far enough away from my tent that if a bear comes along and “works on it” for a while, I won’t be cowering in my tent, watching out the screen door, hoping the canister doesn’t roll my way. I never leave it where it can roll downhill more than a couple of feet, because a bear canister that rolls away and can’t be found is just as bad as a food bag that a bear got and hauled off. It is recommended that you wedge it under something, but anything that I could move, a bear could move... but that might be very helpful in trying to counter raccoons.
Pringles
Could hang it in a bear bag
MuddyWaters
03-13-2019, 08:46
About 10-20'.
1. Bear knows where you are, you arent hiding from him by placing cannister a distance away.
2. Cannisters arent bear-proof. They are resistant. Every cannister out there has been defeated by just black bears.
Cannister success rate is something like 90-95%. This is a tradeoff because a cannister no one will carry has a 0% success rate . Bear proof cannisters can be made, but would be so heavy no one would use them. The sierra agencies explicitly accepted this tradeoff in documents regarding container approval.
3. You need to defend your food, drive bear away. If theres actually active bears , stack rocks on top to make noise when disturbed, and keep small pile of baseball sized rocks handy . To throw at it while yelling.
In places where nightly raids are occurrence, like yosemite, this is exactly what rangers tell you to do. The goal is to prevent bear from getting food. Period.
The goal is not to alleviate your unfounded fear of bears .
A sure way to do that.....stay home.
About 10-20'.
1. Bear knows where you are, you arent hiding from him by placing cannister a distance away.
2. Cannisters arent bear-proof. They are resistant. Every cannister out there has been defeated by just black bears.
Cannister success rate is something like 90-95%. This is a tradeoff because a cannister no one will carry has a 0% success rate . Bear proof cannisters can be made, but would be so heavy no one would use them. The sierra agencies explicitly accepted this tradeoff in documents regarding container approval.
3. You need to defend your food, drive bear away. If theres actually active bears , stack rocks on top to make noise when disturbed, and keep small pile of baseball sized rocks handy . To throw at it while yelling.
In places where nightly raids are occurrence, like yosemite, this is exactly what rangers tell you to do. The goal is to prevent bear from getting food. Period.
The goal is not to alleviate your unfounded fear of bears .
A sure way to do that.....stay home.
Good advice for all you Daniel Boones out there. I don't want that bear within 10 or 20' of me. I've been in places in the Sierras and southern desert and elsewhere where baseball size rocks are very scarce. Even if they were plentiful, my pitching arm ain't what it used to be.
All that said, tho, there's folks out here that will tell you they have been just sleeping with their food - in bear country - for decades. So, as, the saying goes, it's your hike - hike it.
Every cannister out there has been defeated by just black bears.
According to what I've read the BearVault is known to have been "defeated" a bear, as have several lesser-well-known canisters. I've never heard of a recorded case where the Bearikade (or the Ursack Major for that matter) -- when properly used -- has been defeated by a bear. Any canister will prove useless when used improperly of course, such as when not fully locking a Bearikade at all three points.
If anyone knows of a documented case where a properly sealed Bearikade has been penetrated by a bear -- much less a black bear -- I'd definitely be interested, because it would contradict my research thus far.
Christoph
03-13-2019, 12:58
10-20 feet isn't bad. Most of the cables/boxes around shelters aren't much farther away anyway. I sleep with my food in a nylon bag in Ziplocs so unless someone nearby is un-comfy with that close to a shelter or nearby tent sites, I'll just hang it then so I'm not "that guy". It's not all about me out there, I respect others uncomftorableness. Most people I've run across that have a canister tie it to the base of the tree and stack something on top that'll make noise if it's knocked over or messed with. I'd need bells though, after a long day of hiking I aint hearin' nuffin!
MuddyWaters
03-13-2019, 14:14
According to what I've read the BearVault is known to have been "defeated" a bear, as have several lesser-well-known canisters. I've never heard of a recorded case where the Bearikade (or the Ursack Major for that matter) -- when properly used -- has been defeated by a bear. Any canister will prove useless when used improperly of course, such as when not fully locking a Bearikade at all three points.
If anyone knows of a documented case where a properly sealed Bearikade has been penetrated by a bear -- much less a black bear -- I'd definitely be interested, because it would contradict my research thus far.
Bears in yosemite have broken many cannisters by rolling off cliff, then go to bottom to eat. The bearikade is a "less secure" cannister which never passed IGBC testing either. It was grandfathered for sierra, if you find old pics of failed one online, its impressively failed.
Black bears have eaten into cannisters that passed IGBC test. Its 1 hr of play....only.
Ursack is easy, black bear ripped bottom out of one tied to tree a couple yrs ago on CT. Photos posted on facebook. You may not hear about these things, but they happen.
stephanD
03-13-2019, 14:14
About 10-20'.
1. Bear knows where you are, you arent hiding from him by placing cannister a distance away.
2. Cannisters arent bear-proof. They are resistant. Every cannister out there has been defeated by just black bears.
Cannister success rate is something like 90-95%. This is a tradeoff because a cannister no one will carry has a 0% success rate . Bear proof cannisters can be made, but would be so heavy no one would use them. The sierra agencies explicitly accepted this tradeoff in documents regarding container approval.
3. You need to defend your food, drive bear away. If theres actually active bears , stack rocks on top to make noise when disturbed, and keep small pile of baseball sized rocks handy . To throw at it while yelling.
In places where nightly raids are occurrence, like yosemite, this is exactly what rangers tell you to do. The goal is to prevent bear from getting food. Period.
The goal is not to alleviate your unfounded fear of bears .
A sure way to do that.....stay home.
Are you going to fight a 800 pounds grizzly? really???
Sarcasm the elf
03-13-2019, 14:24
Could hang it in a bear bag
This should not be done.
Canisters work in large part by being shaped so that bears cannot get enough of a grip on them to bite or puncture them. Putting a canister in a bag, or tying any sort of rope or cord to a canister can give a bear the additional leverage needed to either defeat the canister or walk off with it.
... The bearikade is a "less secure" cannister which never passed IGBC testing either. It was grandfathered for sierra, if you find old pics of failed one online, its impressively failed. <snip> Ursack is easy, black bear ripped bottom out of one tied to tree a couple yrs ago on CT. Photos posted on facebook.
Links to your evidence, please? I've also never heard of a properly used Bearikade being breached by a bear...
Sarcasm the elf
03-13-2019, 14:33
According to what I've read the BearVault is known to have been "defeated" a bear, as have several lesser-well-known canisters. I've never heard of a recorded case where the Bearikade (or the Ursack Major for that matter) -- when properly used -- has been defeated by a bear. Any canister will prove useless when used improperly of course, such as when not fully locking a Bearikade at all three points.
If anyone knows of a documented case where a properly sealed Bearikade has been penetrated by a bear -- much less a black bear -- I'd definitely be interested, because it would contradict my research thus far.
Bears in yosemite have broken many cannisters by rolling off cliff, then go to bottom to eat. The bearikade is a "less secure" cannister which never passed IGBC testing either. It was grandfathered for sierra, if you find old pics of failed one online, its impressively failed.
Black bears have eaten into cannisters that passed IGBC test. Its 1 hr of play....only.
Ursack is easy, black bear ripped bottom out of one tied to tree a couple yrs ago on CT. Photos posted on facebook. You may not hear about these things, but they happen.
Andrew Skurka has a very good article about bear canister failures, that links to real world data, which can be found here:
https://andrewskurka.com/2018/bear-canister-failures/
Short version:
1) Human error is the most common cause of canister failure.
2) All appeoved canister models have had incidents where they致e been defeated.
3) The canisters with the most reports of being defeated are also the ones that are by far the most popular, so it is difficult to conclude whether there is any design issue, or whether there are simply a lot more of them out there and a small percentage of them are being defeated.
I usually place mine about 100' from the tent in some thick grass or small bushes. I want to be close enough to hear the bear if it starts messing with my can and pot-bang and yell at it. A black bear tried to get into my bare boxer just before Thanksgiving and failed.
I also have noticed that this same bear (a problem at one of my local camp haunts) has never bothered with me or my food again on nights when it raided other nearby campsites. They learn very quickly.
Andrew Skurka has a very good article about bear canister failures, that links to real world data, which can be found here:
https://andrewskurka.com/2018/bear-canister-failures/
Short version:
1) Human error is the most common cause of canister failure.
2) All appeoved canister models have had incidents where they致e been defeated.
3) The canisters with the most reports of being defeated are also the ones that are by far the most popular, so it is difficult to conclude whether there is any design issue, or whether there are simply a lot more of them out there and a small percentage of them are being defeated.
"Human error" is exactly what canister failure is not, and the statement about all models being defeated includes the human error cases. From that article:
From what I can gather, when used properly there were no reported cases of broken Bearikades or the Ursack Major.
HooKooDooKu
03-13-2019, 20:36
You want to keep the canister far enough away from you that you are not putting yourself in the proximity of the bear when he comes to investigate. So the typical advice given by park rangers is to place it about 100' to 300' away from you in a position the bear will not be able to easily roll it off a cliff or into a body of water.
But as with most things, the real answer depends upon the situation.
I believe that when I picked up my permit for the JMT, the speel you must listen to included the advice above.
But on the trail, I encountered a ranger warning people of a bear frequenting the area and he was suggesting keeping it about 20' to 30' away from your tent to better allow yourself to hear and try to scare off the bear.
And of course what's good in black bear country is not necessarily good in grizzly country.
First I find a nice flat sleeping spot in a huckleberry patch next to a stream with spawning salmon. I like being close to Nature. It's best to find a spot where many others have repeatedly done the same, to concentrate the impact you know. We have to be mindful. I like to sleep near an established campfire ring where discarded food remains and food packaging made a nice colorful campfire. I'm going to do the same tonight. If there's an adjacent picnic table so much better. I can prepare my dinner on it and also eat at it while sitting in a relaxing chair absorbing Nature as countless others have enjoyed. I find it convenient preparing and eating my dinner where I sleep. I eat my dinner. I like something with sardines, tuna, Vienna sausages, or pepperoni, common trail foods. Next morning I plan on eating and drinking something with a sweetener maybe trail coffee in my sleeping bag. I like Peanut butter on trail too. I like doing this especially if it's a chilly morning. After gnoshing I brush my teeth with toothpaste spitting the wash next to where I sleep. It keeps away the ants I figure. Then I apply a bunch of lip balm. My lips get chapped easily. I find sleeping in the same clothes I cooked and ate and hiked in all day is better time management and more UL than changing into a second set of clothes. My approach is to continually gnosh all day on the move using the drip method. Besides my clothes aren't usually wet or dirty and I need to get in my FB time on my Smartphone in camp anyway. Wife and kids need my daily 7 p.m. check in too. Might spend an hr or so watching a movie. Gotta stay connected! I don't over think all this. Too many long winded details that I can't keep focused on that some anal backpackers or authoritarians impose upon others as if they know it all. They can be so rude and offensive. I use my pack wisely under my feet as insulation. I go UL.
Then, for bear safety food protection I store my food in a canister 100 ft away. I'm on the fence whether bear canisters work.
LittleRock
03-15-2019, 10:10
A 100% bear-proof canister? How about a stainless steel sphere approximately 14" in diameter that unscrews at the center. Weighs about 20 lbs.
stephanD
03-15-2019, 16:28
I bought a bear container (BV450) in 2015, but i used it the first time on a section hike in the summer of 2018 from Front Royal to Pearisburg. i wanted to like it but i just couldn't. First, there's the weight. it is two pounds of dead weight, there's no way around it. And for someone like me with bad knees, it matters. Then, it is bulky and cumbersome. No matter how i tried to arrange it in my pack, it always found a way to jab me in the back while hiking. finally, there's the search for the "perfect" location to leave it for the night, and you are not even sure you will find it there the next day. I used to be a "hanger" but, like many others, i got tired of hanging bags, and beside, mice and other critters can climb down and up cords with no difficulty. So the only choice for me is the new Ursack AllMitey bear bag. It is, i hope, the right combination between lightness and toughness. it may be a bit pricey at $134.95 at REI but that is why i'm waiting for their March 22nd 20% off coupons.
Slow Trek
03-15-2019, 23:38
First I find a nice flat sleeping spot in a huckleberry patch next to a stream with spawning salmon. I like being close to Nature. It's best to find a spot where many others have repeatedly done the same, to concentrate the impact you know. We have to be mindful. I like to sleep near an established campfire ring where discarded food remains and food packaging made a nice colorful campfire. I'm going to do the same tonight. If there's an adjacent picnic table so much better. I can prepare my dinner on it and also eat at it while sitting in a relaxing chair absorbing Nature as countless others have enjoyed. I find it convenient preparing and eating my dinner where I sleep. I eat my dinner. I like something with sardines, tuna, Vienna sausages, or pepperoni, common trail foods. Next morning I plan on eating and drinking something with a sweetener maybe trail coffee in my sleeping bag. I like Peanut butter on trail too. I like doing this especially if it's a chilly morning. After gnoshing I brush my teeth with toothpaste spitting the wash next to where I sleep. It keeps away the ants I figure. Then I apply a bunch of lip balm. My lips get chapped easily. I find sleeping in the same clothes I cooked and ate and hiked in all day is better time management and more UL than changing into a second set of clothes. My approach is to continually gnosh all day on the move using the drip method. Besides my clothes aren't usually wet or dirty and I need to get in my FB time on my Smartphone in camp anyway. Wife and kids need my daily 7 p.m. check in too. Might spend an hr or so watching a movie. Gotta stay connected! I don't over think all this. Too many long winded details that I can't keep focused on that some anal backpackers or authoritarians impose upon others as if they know it all. They can be so rude and offensive. I use my pack wisely under my feet as insulation. I go UL.
Then, for bear safety food protection I store my food in a canister 100 ft away. I'm on the fence whether bear canisters work.
Now,that there is funny! Why not honey coated spawning salmon?
Rain Man
03-16-2019, 12:09
Does "bear proof" include a bear can't knock it into the nearest creek to float away, off the nearest cliff, or just carry it off into the woods?
A 100% bear-proof canister? How about a stainless steel sphere approximately 14" in diameter that unscrews at the center. Weighs about 20 lbs.
I bought a bear container (BV450) in 2015, but i used it the first time on a section hike in the summer of 2018 from Front Royal to Pearisburg. i wanted to like it but i just couldn't. First, there's the weight. it is two pounds of dead weight, there's no way around it. And for someone like me with bad knees, it matters. Then, it is bulky and cumbersome. No matter how i tried to arrange it in my pack, it always found a way to jab me in the back while hiking. finally, there's the search for the "perfect" location to leave it for the night, and you are not even sure you will find it there the next day. I used to be a "hanger" but, like many others, i got tired of hanging bags, and beside, mice and other critters can climb down and up cords with no difficulty. So the only choice for me is the new Ursack AllMitey bear bag. It is, i hope, the right combination between lightness and toughness. it may be a bit pricey at $134.95 at REI but that is why i'm waiting for their March 22nd 20% off coupons.
Thanks, I was wondering when the coupons were coming out.
stephenD:
I知 curious.
How is the Ursack AllMighty going to overcome some of the complaints you have about the hard sided canisters?
Wayne
MuddyWaters
03-18-2019, 14:02
I bought a bear container (BV450) in 2015, but i used it the first time on a section hike in the summer of 2018 from Front Royal to Pearisburg. i wanted to like it but i just couldn't. First, there's the weight. it is two pounds of dead weight, there's no way around it. And for someone like me with bad knees, it matters. Then, it is bulky and cumbersome. No matter how i tried to arrange it in my pack, it always found a way to jab me in the back while hiking. finally, there's the search for the "perfect" location to leave it for the night, and you are not even sure you will find it there the next day.
Well obviously its not required on AT.
But I carry UL pack, and have none of your problems with bear can.
On JMT my base weight was 9.5 lbs.....including the 2 lb bearcan.
So, why you blame the bearcan, you can look at it another way and blame all the other stuff in your pack as well . Its a total system thing, not any one items fault. You are just comparing to system without that item, because you can. In some places, thats not an option. Where can is required
, You have to use it, so you learn how to make it work for you.
I would wager you found your can every morning exactly where you left it, so why you would worry about it is a mystery. You are far more likely to find a food bag gone. Far more.
I wouldnt use a can in AT today. But It wouldnt bother me to if it were required either. Finding decent hanging tree is just as hard on sloped ground as finding spot can wont roll away. Another reason to put can close to you....reduces likelihood of it being messed with.
stephanD
03-18-2019, 14:48
stephenD:
I知 curious.
How is the Ursack AllMighty going to overcome some of the complaints you have about the hard sided canisters?
Wayne
Well....this is a trial-and-error thing. I started by hanging, but i got tired of this. The canister did not work for me. so i hope the Ursack is the right thing for me. I know there are problems with the previous models, but i hope they fix them with this newest version. So, first, there's the weight; 2.1 lbs vs. 13 oz. The Ursack, although rigid, is still more flexible then the canister so i hope it will fit better in my pack. The Ursack can be secured to any fixed object, which reduces the chances of it being carried away by a bear. And, not being gung-ho about it, but i like that it is USA made. Now, i may be completely wrong, But i will find out this April in my next seven day section hike in southern Virginia.
MuddyWaters
03-18-2019, 15:57
Well....this is a trial-and-error thing. I started by hanging, but i got tired of this. The canister did not work for me. so i hope the Ursack is the right thing for me. I know there are problems with the previous models, but i hope they fix them with this newest version. So, first, there's the weight; 2.1 lbs vs. 13 oz. The Ursack, although rigid, is still more flexible then the canister so i hope it will fit better in my pack. The Ursack can be secured to any fixed object, which reduces the chances of it being carried away by a bear.
Not any object.
I think other model come with 6' rope
Which will let you tie around a tree about 18"
In reality, 12-18" tree is about it. Not rocks, or buildings, or anything else. And it needs to be secured high enough that bear is on two feet...reducing his leverage. He can chew thru rope holding it to tree if can get teeth on it easily.
Since many instances of bears getting food are by surprise in yosemite historically, inability to quickly deploy properly has always been a detriment of ursack being approved there.
stephanD
03-18-2019, 17:10
Not any object.
I think other model come with 6' rope
Which will let you tie around a tree about 18"
In reality, 12-18" tree is about it. Not rocks, or buildings, or anything else. And it needs to be secured high enough that bear is on two feet...reducing his leverage. He can chew thru rope holding it to tree if can get teeth on it easily.
Since many instances of bears getting food are by surprise in yosemite historically, inability to quickly deploy properly has always been a detriment of ursack being approved there.
No system is perfect. I agree that in Grizzly territory canisters probably are the best solution. What i like about the Ursack is the flexibility; you can tie to a branch (preferably), a trunk, hang it, or (according to the website), if there is nothing to tie to, you can use it like a canister hidden on the ground. In short, it is a food bag on steroids. I hope the cost is justifiable, and the only way to find out is to actually use it.
MuddyWaters
03-18-2019, 17:30
No system is perfect. I agree that in Grizzly territory canisters probably are the best solution. What i like about the Ursack is the flexibility; you can tie to a branch (preferably), a trunk, hang it, or (according to the website), if there is nothing to tie to, you can use it like a canister hidden on the ground. In short, it is a food bag on steroids. I hope the cost is justifiable, and the only way to find out is to actually use it.
I hate to say it, but new owners of ursack are not that bright.
No, you should never ever hide it on the ground. A bear will carry it away. No, not under rocks, any rock you can move with great effort... a bear can move with a paw flick. These are very bad things to promote. Imo, the new owners have decided to prey on uninformed buyers.
Find old instructions and follow them. Big tree or big branch, a certain height off ground, tied securely.
In spite of this...when igbc tested before, they didnt tie to tree. Likely so bears couldnt get leverage on it.....
Difficulty to tie and deploy properly (lots of people cant seem to even close bear cans properly), is another reason yosemite is reluctant to approve it for use. The new owners promoting bad ways of deployment, are going to insure it never is.
No system is perfect. I agree that in Grizzly territory canisters probably are the best solution. What i like about the Ursack is the flexibility; you can tie to a branch (preferably), a trunk, hang it, or (according to the website), if there is nothing to tie to, you can use it like a canister hidden on the ground. In short, it is a food bag on steroids. I hope the cost is justifiable, and the only way to find out is to actually use it.
Let us know how it works out if a bear tries to get it. In most cases, bears that find it crush what is in the ursack, so, it will be interesting to see if the hard panel stops it.
Thanks everyone!
I値l continue to use my Ursack Major.
Wayne
stephanD
03-19-2019, 09:20
Let us know how it works out if a bear tries to get it. In most cases, bears that find it crush what is in the ursack, so, it will be interesting to see if the hard panel stops it.
Since I'm not planning on buying the aluminum panel, which comes separately, food crushing may be a problem, but it is the same with any regular food bag that most hikers use. Beside coffee/tea/sugar, my hiking foods consist mostly of tortilla/wraps, hard cheeses, tuna pouches, energy bars, gorp (dry fruits, peanuts, nuts, M&M) and jars of peanut butter and chocolate spread. So most this food can still be eaten even if crushed.
MuddyWaters
03-19-2019, 10:37
Since I'm not planning on buying the aluminum panel, which comes separately, food crushing may be a problem, but it is the same with any regular food bag that most hikers use. Beside coffee/tea/sugar, my hiking foods consist mostly of tortilla/wraps, hard cheeses, tuna pouches, energy bars, gorp (dry fruits, peanuts, nuts, M&M) and jars of peanut butter and chocolate spread. So most this food can still be eaten even if crushed.
It wont be crushed, it will be chewed.
It will be a mass of mixed up gunk.
It will be slobbery and stink like a bear too.
Bon Appetite.
P.S. are you concerned about rabies at all? No? Good.
Traillium
03-19-2019, 11:32
In reality, 12-18" tree is about it. Not rocks, or buildings, or anything else. And it needs to be secured high enough that bear is on two feet...reducing his leverage. He can chew thru rope holding it to tree if can get teeth on it easily.
I致e also figured out that tip of tying the Ursack up as high as I can reach.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Correct me if I知 wrong.
I am under the impression that the rope shipped with the Ursacks is made of Spectra fiber, the same fibers as the Ursack is made of. I would think that the rope would be difficult for a bear to chew through.
Spectra ropes are used for tug boat towlines.
But I might be wrong.
Wayne
MuddyWaters
03-19-2019, 16:36
Correct me if I知 wrong.
I am under the impression that the rope shipped with the Ursacks is made of Spectra fiber, the same fibers as the Ursack is made of. I would think that the rope would be difficult for a bear to chew through.
Spectra ropes are used for tug boat towlines.
But I might be wrong.
Wayne
Spectra is not indestructible.
I use spectra fishing line....it breaks
I use spectra spectra guyouts....they fray and break...overnight...when rub on rock in wind
It has great tensile strength...but its uhmw polyethylene. Plastic. Not indestructible.
Google ursack failure to see pic of how indestructible ursack is when chewed on.
In most cases, you downsize line to be smaller because of tensile strength to have lighter line. It also not absorb water so stays light.
Thanks! I値l be careful where I place the Ursack.
Wayne