View Full Version : Tarps vs bugs
Game Warden
03-18-2019, 20:48
I am thinking about going to a tarp shelter instead of a tent. My chief concern is mosquitos. Does anyone have any experience in bug season with a tarp? Also, I sleep on the ground, not a hammock. Thanks.
Slo-go'en
03-18-2019, 21:16
That's what a bug bivy is for. If you don't need the floor, just get a net. I have a SMD serenity net and an OR bug bivy. I mostly use the OR as it's self supporting with a hoop. Besides bug protection it actually improves warmth and has a water proof floor so damp ground isn't an issue.
MuddyWaters
03-18-2019, 21:41
I am thinking about going to a tarp shelter instead of a tent. My chief concern is mosquitos. Does anyone have any experience in bug season with a tarp? Also, I sleep on the ground, not a hammock. Thanks.
Where and when would be pertinent information.
Some parts of trail, you wont see mosquitos , ticks, or anything bad. Maybe gnats.
Other parts and times, mosquitos will chase you.
Some areas are just highly tick prone
And then theres black flies
Now, consider that most shelter dwellers, dont have bug protection when sleeping. But they are off ground. So its obviously not necessary. It can be re-assuring.
When hot, sweaty, itchy laying down to sleep, its reassuring to know that every itch that suddenly occurs isnt something crawling on you.
AllDownhillFromHere
03-18-2019, 22:29
I too am in the East Coast, and I struggle with the utility of a tarp when you need a bivy with it. At that point, you've created a tent, except its not freestanding and you can still get splashed. I think in the (North)East, a tarp works in the fall and maybe spring, the rest of the time use a tent.
That word tarp is thrown about lately. It can be muddled with tarp tents, shaped tarps, flat tarps and maybe a few other versions I'm missing. To which are you referring?
Last few yrs go to tarps shelters have been MLD Solomid, Duomid, and a couple Locus selections in mids, catenary cut shaped tarps from OWare and MLD and assorted flat tarps with cat cut hems or straight hem true flat tarps.
The 'tarp' shelter choice plays into how I might set up.
Most of all I try to first ascertain the level of the threat in matching the response.
I like going cheap, flexible, diverse and modular or component based 'inner' systems. I don't go the bug bivy route. I want to break that component down into greater components. This is one reason why I use tarps - to tweak the components as different conditions exist to avoid unnecessary bulk and wt. I may use a WR bivy though with a tarp in part to address vampires. Bug bivies are more money and lock me in to having incorporated floor and netting. I like having the choice of different ground cloths flat or bathtub style in Kite Tvek, polycro, or outlandishly priced DCF. I go two routes for netting 1) either a C2Summit Nanoseeum w/insect Shield in 1 p or if 2 p if using the Duo or Locus. If either of those larger mids are used and 1 p I use the 1 p netting 2) a DIY tulle netting. Tulle at fabric stores is cheap and despite it's fragility I've only had one still unharmed in more than 10 yrs. All these nettings are guyed out either from the sym or asym apex to teh top of the netting pyramid and have the option to also be gibed out to the four corners at stakes or inner corner loop s w/ UL bungee. They basically resemble tropical netting pyramids as common in the tropics hung over beds.
Under the heaviest vampire pressure a multi layered approach to insect protection is taken rather than solely a shelter amendments approach precisely as approached under heavy vampire protection when on the move hiking. The single firewall approach is not typical. It's multi firewalls of various strengths that cumulatively get the job done for me.
Feral Bill
03-19-2019, 01:50
I have used a basic flat tarp with an inexpensive, light bug net (Sea to Summit) many times in buggy conditions. Never lost any sleep. No need to overthink.
Five Tango
03-19-2019, 07:57
If you would like to get factual first hand information about the use of tarp and bug bivvy in all conditions from an AT thru hiker that used it the whole time,check out Evansbackpacking on You Tube.
Evan has a knack for finding just the right spot,pitching the tarp low,and staying dry and bug free.
fiddlehead
03-19-2019, 21:08
I still use an Integral Design's "Sil Shelter" (tarptent)
If I'm in heavy bugs (mosquitoes) I wear a headnet to bed and get in my bag.
One hike (Pyrenees HRP) we had to carry a lot of salt and make a rim around our heads to keep slugs away.
But that's rare.
I love the fact that my tarptent only weights 12 oz. (with stakes)
My friend has one and he sewed about 7" of mosquito netting around the bottom perimeter and a triangle of it at the foot end.
I would like to do the same but instead, I bought a tent for when I'm heading to big mosquito country (like this coming June when I'm hiking in Sweden)
It's about a lb more and I hate adding a lb to my 12 lb pack.
In my opinion, when the bugs or gnats or other flying biters are out, a tarptent is hard to beat. I like to know that when I zip up the door and kill that last insect that's inside my tarptent that I am good to go.
I've used tarps, tarps with bivies, and tents. I like a tarptent with netting and sewn in floor. I like it better than a tarp/bug bivy combo.
Slo-go'en
03-19-2019, 22:49
I've used tarps, tarps with bivies, and tents. I like a tarptent with netting and sewn in floor. I like it better than a tarp/bug bivy combo.
When it all said and done, that really is the answer. It's just so much simpler and more forgiving to use a tent. Back when the average tent was 5-6 pounds, a tarp was an attractive alternative. With a lot of tents now coming in at under 2 pounds the attractiveness of a trap isn't nearly the same as it was.
Feral Bill
03-20-2019, 01:59
When it all said and done, that really is the answer. It's just so much simpler and more forgiving to use a tent. Back when the average tent was 5-6 pounds, a tarp was an attractive alternative. With a lot of tents now coming in at under 2 pounds the attractiveness of a trap isn't nearly the same as it was. A tarp has a big area to stay dry in while enjoying fresh air and a view with little condensation. Hammocking? The same tarp does the job. Want a cover for the front of a lean to? Works for that, too. No bugs?, you save a few ounces leaving the net home. Tents have a place, but for me, a tarp is usually more enjoyable. It's nice having multiple good choices.
MuddyWaters
03-20-2019, 05:48
Tarps are great to pitch quickly and ride out afternoon t-storms. Anywhere.
Dont want an attached floor for this. On mud, rocks, sloped ground, baby trees, bushes, etc, tarp goes over them without a hitch. Not as big deal on AT as western trails
Whether you use an inner net, bug bivy, or nothing for sleeping is secondary. Choose whatever depending on conditions.
Sometimes the spot you you hunker down in to ride out a squall, becomes your campsite for next 18 hrs, when squall lasts longer than expected.
I have been very pleased with using a Monk tarp (MLD) in combination with a light bivy (Tigoat Ptarmigan). I don't always use the bivy unless bugs or rain threats are significant, but it's always in the pack. The bivy only weighs something like 7 ounces, and it can also help to keep the bag clean as needed. A bit of polycro underneath also helps to keep things clean and dry. Keep it simple and keep it modular/flexible.
Kittyslayer
03-20-2019, 09:28
My bivy has mesh at the head. In addition to keeping out the bugs the bivy keeps my bag clean and dew off the surface and mud off the bottom.
If clear I sometimes only use my bivy.
If bug free and warm I often leave the torso of my bivy unzipped.
If potential for rain I string up my poncho as a tarp shelter using trees or my hiking poles.
I'm the group that prefers a sewn-in tarptent for bugs, and the newest ones are lighter than the tarp/bivy-or-net/groundsheet combinations. If I don't expect bugs, I bring a flat or shaped tarp + groundsheet instead. With the tarp I save a few ounces, get a bit more living space, and a bit more flexibility.
Slo-go'en
03-20-2019, 11:20
You'll note that most of those in favor of tarps hike out west where the climate is different then in the east. Time of year, location and expected weather is what one should use to choose the type of shelter to carry.
On the AT, it's rare to see anyone using a trap unless it's over a hammock. Those who try just a tarp often end up in shelters or switching to a tent.
In the fall I'll often use my all-weather bivy instead of my tent, even though it's somewhat heavier. That is, so long as I'm pretty sure there won't be any serious rain. It gives me more warmth then the tent, is easier to use on tent platforms and easier to set up at marginal campsites if it comes to that since I basically only need enough room to laydown.
A tarp has a big area to stay dry in while enjoying fresh air and a view with little condensation. Hammocking? The same tarp does the job. Want a cover for the front of a lean to? Works for that, too. No bugs?, you save a few ounces leaving the net home. Tents have a place, but for me, a tarp is usually more enjoyable. It's nice having multiple good choices.
+1........
Knife - Porterhouse
Spoon - ice cream
You'll note that most of those in favor of tarps hike out west where the climate is different then in the east. Time of year, location and expected weather is what one should use to choose the type of shelter to carry.
On the AT, it's rare to see anyone using a trap unless it's over a hammock. Those who try just a tarp often end up in shelters or switching to a tent.
You left out at least one more important consideration that impacts why you dont see as much tarp usage on the AT compared to the west - regional skill set variances. Western(west of the Mississippi) U.S. hiking communities trend towards being more liberal more open to trying new ways than east coast AT counterparts... and even though personally from NJ, FL, and GA, trend towards being more trail diversity advanced and traditionally in U.S. History are greater risk takers in regard to adventure and traveling explores than those feathered their nest in the east specifically northeast and mid Atlantic regions. Attend and observe at a ALDHA West and ALDHA east oriented meetings. Every ALDHA West meeting I've attended have a wider range of ethnicities, international and domestic based hikers, age groups, more female hikers as percentage of hiking attendees, topics covered are more broadly ranging and in depth, awards given are more widely based(TC Awards for example), and generally deeper skill sets among attendees.
Efficient diverse tarp use requires a greater number of variables to consider. Where east coaster have it is IMHO hammock knowledge. East coast based hangers generally have deeper skill sets and knowledge of hammocks. If desiring hammock ears tickled perhaps leaning in a little closer when easterners are involved might not be a bad thing?
Jus my 3 or 4 cts. ;)
BTW Slo-go-en any indication of why we have that same issue misspelling tarp as trap so often?
T.S.Kobzol
03-21-2019, 07:24
I own this:
44900
I have pitched it with my tarp a few times...as a trial to see how it would work and how i would go about using it. Interestingly enough I never used it on a trip. I have too much other gear that made this item obsolete (so far)
I also own the HMG Mid Half Insert (https://www.hyperlitemountaingear.com/products/ultamid-4-half-insert) that I have actually used many times on trips ranging from hiking, to backcountry ski touring to bicycle touring. It works reasonably well...there is one other thing about single wall tarps/tents ... you get misting on the inside when it is raining or wet...you are in your sleeping bag and receive either droplet drips on your face or feeling of wet mist.
It is somewhat moot point if You spend several days in a rainy environment...pretty much every shelter and every item in your possession will be wet.
That word tarp is thrown about lately. It can be muddled with tarp tents, shaped tarps, flat tarps and maybe a few other versions I'm missing. To which are you referring?
Last few yrs go to tarps shelters have been MLD Solomid, Duomid, and a couple Locus selections in mids, catenary cut shaped tarps from OWare and MLD and assorted flat tarps with cat cut hems or straight hem true flat tarps.
The 'tarp' shelter choice plays into how I might set up.
Most of all I try to first ascertain the level of the threat in matching the response.
I like going cheap, flexible, diverse and modular or component based 'inner' systems. I don't go the bug bivy route. I want to break that component down into greater components. This is one reason why I use tarps - to tweak the components as different conditions exist to avoid unnecessary bulk and wt. I may use a WR bivy though with a tarp in part to address vampires. Bug bivies are more money and lock me in to having incorporated floor and netting. I like having the choice of different ground cloths flat or bathtub style in Kite Tvek, polycro, or outlandishly priced DCF. I go two routes for netting 1) either a C2Summit Nanoseeum w/insect Shield in 1 p or if 2 p if using the Duo or Locus. If either of those larger mids are used and 1 p I use the 1 p netting 2) a DIY tulle netting. Tulle at fabric stores is cheap and despite it's fragility I've only had one still unharmed in more than 10 yrs. All these nettings are guyed out either from the sym or asym apex to teh top of the netting pyramid and have the option to also be gibed out to the four corners at stakes or inner corner loop s w/ UL bungee. They basically resemble tropical netting pyramids as common in the tropics hung over beds.
Under the heaviest vampire pressure a multi layered approach to insect protection is taken rather than solely a shelter amendments approach precisely as approached under heavy vampire protection when on the move hiking. The single firewall approach is not typical. It's multi firewalls of various strengths that cumulatively get the job done for me.
T.S.Kobzol
03-21-2019, 07:31
After watching some of the AT youtubers' first few days on the trail in March, hiking and camping in a cold cloud where everything gets saturated by the moisture in the air and after seeing some of the group camp sites tents literally pitched in puddles I would be really wary of just bringing a tarp on a thru hike. Targeted short trips would be another matter but one must observe the several variables before deciding on a practical shelter.
I dont have one and dont use one but I've seen a shaped tarp like a MLD Trailstar used quite effectively in heavy wind very wet cold cloudy weather in Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England as a 2 p shelter doing LD hikes. There is more open space though so the footprint size is moot. It's a comparable footprint to a ZP Duplex. Maybe I missed it but I dont hear a ton about condensation with ZP tarp tent shelters.
I've seen OR and MEC shaped and flat tarps used quite effectively in rainy cold wet weather in Canada in Nova Scotia and British Columbia.
If I was considering using a tarp I'd want to more heavily focus on people that effectively do it than focus on tarp naysayers but be open to hear from different perspectives.
There is no doubt using a tarp as shelter effectively in diverse conditions may require different awarenesses and considerations than perhaps a conventional tent design. Use curves apply to just about anything one is not a familiar...as my father would attest while he was teaching me how to drive.
After watching some of the AT youtubers' first few days on the trail in March, hiking and camping in a cold cloud where everything gets saturated by the moisture in the air and after seeing some of the group camp sites tents literally pitched in puddles I would be really wary of just bringing a tarp on a thru hike. Targeted short trips would be another matter but one must observe the several variables before deciding on a practical shelter.
Pitching in a puddle using a tent or tarp should be telling of one's awareness. Who chooses to pitch a tent in standing water? Now apply that to using a tarp. It's not a good idea. It's not a good idea to pitch either in a depression. I'd make the case that group sites or more established beaten down routinely heavily used 1 party sites with no platform or raised area can be prone to more depressions. You can witness a lot of these heavy use depressions at AT shelter sites and some CG's. Doesn't it makes sense to set up in an area not prone to holding water or where water run off is likely. It's really a fundamental consideration to CS selection.
MuddyWaters
03-21-2019, 11:02
Ive weathered hellatious all night t-storms , and spent 24+ hrs under my little 8oz tarp. Dry and comfy.
Seen a few people in tents flooded on various trails too.
It all comes down to more than if its a tarp or not.
Ive had to dig drainage trenches, or use limbs to divert runoff as well a few times when forced to pitch with no high spot . I.e on sloping ground. Done in advance . Remediated before leaving. Would do same for tent.
Ive seen people in tents flooded on several trails, usually only happens once to drive point of site selection home.
Grandmas can even use a tarp on an AT thru. What do you think a shower curtain represents?
4eyedbuzzard
03-22-2019, 06:40
You left out at least one more important consideration that impacts why you dont see as much tarp usage on the AT compared to the west - regional skill set variances. Western(west of the Mississippi) U.S. hiking communities trend towards being more liberal more open to trying new ways than east coast AT counterparts... and even though personally from NJ, FL, and GA, trend towards being more trail diversity advanced and traditionally in U.S. History are greater risk takers in regard to adventure and traveling explores than those feathered their nest in the east specifically northeast and mid Atlantic regions. Attend and observe at a ALDHA West and ALDHA east oriented meetings. Every ALDHA West meeting I've attended have a wider range of ethnicities, international and domestic based hikers, age groups, more female hikers as percentage of hiking attendees, topics covered are more broadly ranging and in depth, awards given are more widely based(TC Awards for example), and generally deeper skill sets among attendees.
Efficient diverse tarp use requires a greater number of variables to consider. Where east coaster have it is IMHO hammock knowledge. East coast based hangers generally have deeper skill sets and knowledge of hammocks. If desiring hammock ears tickled perhaps leaning in a little closer when easterners are involved might not be a bad thing?
Jus my 3 or 4 cts. ;)
BTW Slo-go-en any indication of why we have that same issue misspelling tarp as trap so often?
Map showing liberal bias of western US vs more conservative eastern US. Oops wait, that's a precipitation map. Yeah, you might want a tent in the eastern US where it rains a lot more. Occam's Razor...
44908
Five Tango
03-22-2019, 08:45
Hammocks are not for everybody and I totally get that,however,I have never pitched mine in a puddle.
cmoulder
03-22-2019, 08:51
Map showing liberal bias of western US vs more conservative eastern US. Oops wait, that's a precipitation map. Yeah, you might want a tent in the eastern US where it rains a lot more. Occam's Razor...
44908
Hmm.... I think you're onto something there. :-?
T.S.Kobzol
03-22-2019, 09:26
Hammocks are not for everybody and I totally get that,however,I have never pitched mine in a puddle.
Bingo [emoji1]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Map showing liberal bias in Canada. Oops, thats's a Canadian precipitation map demonstrating how much rain falls in British Columbia and Nova Scotia. Those using a tarp in the rain in B.C. and Nova Scotia must not know about Occams razor?
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Grandma Gatewood used a shower curtain tarp set up as lean to or A frame for an AT thru hike. She used what she had. She could have used a tent. She rose to the task of using a tarp because she had to make the effort. She was driven. She was a hardy soul! She wasn't so accustomed as many of us to a life of comfort and convenience. Most here aren't driven enough to have to make the effort. They are soft out of comfort and convenience because that's what the AT and LT infrastructure and uber analytics provide.
Eric Ryback, cited as the first TCer used a tarp set up as a lean to with two sticks for most of all those 7900 miles including nearly 2200 miles on the AT. Why? He had to make it work. He had to make the effort. He could have used a tent the whole TC if he had really wanted but was on a super tight budget! He didn't have the comfort and conveniences AT hikers now do.
Guess they all must have been doing it wrong since they didn't choose a tent?
On the TGO Challenge across wet windy Scotland those thru hiking not from the U.S. you'll see a fair number using a tarp. Why? Yes, Scots and other UK hikers are more comfortable with those conditions. But it's also because Scots, Irish , Welsh are hardier in some ways than coddled U.S. counterparts. We dont want to hear this shart when we're the ones having to make honest inventories of why we do what we do.
The pt being made is a tarp certainly can be used very effectively in the rain when one brings their tarp user skills up to the task! Many U.S hikers don't want to make the effort. They find it simpler to turn their minds off which can be said about many things...in this case by plopping down a tent or receding to the mouse boxes on the AT. Those having regionally limited backpacking experience, LIKE MANY ON THE AT, are some of THE most coddled hikers in the U.S. That's one of the reasons why NEWBS abound on the AT. It's NOT just about precipitation maps why you don't see as many tarps! Just like Tipi Walter says, inclement weather hits ATers tend to run for the rat boxes or into town. Coddled! They dont want to make the effort because they don't have to... and when they dont have to, they do not.
It's the same thing when ATers or LTers or others accustomed to uber analyzed hikes with uber analyzed frequent resupply opps thru the JMT expecting the same thing to exist. Using a tent can be giving in in part to a cookie cutter follow the herd mentality.
Colorado Rob, having diverse experiences, whether he uses a tarp or not, was able to organize JMT hikes because he was open to different agendas. He went NOBO and HAPPILY made it work for him BECAUSE HE WAS WILLING TO AJUST and ADAPT. Most dont want to venture far from their comfort zones. He was. He had much fewer issues getting a JMT thru permit as a result which OMG so many have an issue.
Tarps not being seen as often in the east can't simply be explained away because it can be wet!
4eyedbuzzard
03-22-2019, 19:28
...Tarps not being seen as often in the east can't simply be explained away because it can be wet!Um, yeah, actually it can. As long as one doesn't over-analyze it and commit the logical fallacy of "appeal to extremes". People like Grandma Gatewood and Eric Ryback are outliers (extremes) as hikers, as well as from a different time (like 50 years ago). Grandma Gatewood couldn't afford a (cotton canvas) tent even if she wanted one. Eric hiked in cotton clothing. Are all those today who can afford a lightweight tent or who wear synthetic clothing today just not skilled or tough enough? Or are they just using the gear that both Gatewood and Ryback would have used if they could have? Colorado Rob is, from what I've read, a highly experienced LD hiker and his personal choice might be to choose a tarp over a tent because of his high level of skills. Most people probably will not develop their skills to that level - ever. Most will likely not have the time, and most probably don't even want to devote that much time. Citing such examples is as pointless as comparing the average hiker's pace to Skurka's and then passing it off to people just not being skilled or tough enough to develop themselves into a professional hiking machine.
I would imagine that there are more tarp users by percentage on the PCT vs the AT. But according to most gear surveys I've seen, tent users outnumber tarp users on both trails. Maybe there's a huge influx of eastern hikers out on the PCT?
Can a tarp suffice as well as a tent? With proper skills, yes, in most weather conditions, but not all. But most people don't have those skills. Nor do they want or need to. It's you who want them to - not them.
As to cultural/regional differences, yeah, there is probably a little influence in gear choices. But westerners choosing tarps because other westerners do, or Scots because other Scots do, is then no less a follow the herd mentality. Someone who toughs it out with less than ideal gear for their skill level just because others can and do is just following a different herd.
But then again, Tipi Walter, who you also mentioned, has skills that surpass most hikers. Yet I don't know if I've ever seen a pic of him without a nice Hilleberg tent when out on a hike. Maybe in his younger Tipi days.
But, ya know, he hikes in a pretty wet climate...
So, HYOH. And as MAGS might say, you don't have to HMHD (Hike My Hike Damnit!) :D
cmoulder
03-22-2019, 20:04
Try a tarp in the Adirondacks in June. Quite educational.
Y'all talk like it's not wet in the Northwest or something. We literally have a rainforest here. The region is famous for being incessantly damp.
Slo-go'en
03-22-2019, 21:31
Y'all talk like it's not wet in the Northwest or something. We literally have a rainforest here. The region is famous for being incessantly damp.
So, what's the most commonly used shelter out there? Tent or tarp? Bug season? I think I'd opt for a tent.
4eyedbuzzard
03-22-2019, 22:46
Y'all talk like it's not wet in the Northwest or something. We literally have a rainforest here. The region is famous for being incessantly damp.Absolutely agree. There is a bit of a difference in that spring thru early fall, when most thru-hiking is done, is the driest season in the Pacific Northwest (not saying it still isn't wet), which has a pretty pronounced rainy season that peaks in winter. The east in general has less variance, a much less pronounced rainy vs dry season, but the rainiest time is March through August, coinciding with AT thru-hiker season. I can't speak to the bug issue in the PNW, but bugs can be a big issue on the heavily wooded AT, especially in late spring/early summer.
So, what's the most commonly used shelter out there? Tent or tarp? Bug season? I think I'd opt for a tent.It would be interesting to hear from those who routinely hike in different regions of the west as to their preferred shelter. But I have to say, most pictures I've seen of the PCT thru-hike bubble feature a lot of the same tents, packs, etc. you see on the AT. In fact, it's hard to tell the difference between the overcrowded campsites if it weren't for the different vegetation and terrain. There's obviously some folks on both trails using only tarps, but they are definitely a minority.
Dont totally disagree. Yet, people don't want to make the effort! That's on them not all on the tarp as a 'bad' choice. They dont make the effort because they don't have to because folks gravitate towards the familiar, what we perceive as simple.
Lets be real. Many on WB are easterners with the main focus the AT. The AT is easy in many ways with it's massive uber analyzed and available infrastructrure. That ease creates a wider mindset of ease, comfort and convenience and it also influences ease of shelter choice. That mindset of familiarity, comfort and ease carries over to expecting it elsewhere and repeatedly.
Grandma Gatewood(REALLY?) and Eric(Eric by his own in person accounts, he was a kid) were not highly skilled, as if it takes a great amount of effort to use a tarp effectively. That's an excuse, an excuse so not to have to make an effort. Fine, don't make the effort, but don't blame it all on the tarp for the tarp not being the choice in the east and specifically the AT or LT.
Damn well right HYOH. Use what shelter you want. But do not imply a tarp is a BAD choice because it rains.
If you want to talk about effort look at the extent hammockers make. They make hangs as shelters adaptable to a wide range of conditions. That community always is advancing, evolving, not afraid. They don't get complacent. There's always something new coming out of that community. If we dont ever move beyond AT norms we become complacent. That's part of what we're dealing with- complacency.
Alligator
03-22-2019, 23:33
I have used a basic flat tarp with an inexpensive, light bug net (Sea to Summit) many times in buggy conditions. Never lost any sleep. No need to overthink.
Same here, up and down the AT, Spring through Fall. Groundcloth, 6 stakes, some line, and the tarp. You practice setup at home just like you would a tent.
I think most people are simply ascared to try it. And ascared of the daddy long legs too!
Feral Bill
03-23-2019, 00:25
Try a tarp in the Adirondacks in June. Quite educational.
Same as sleeping in a shelter. A net is an easy ad on.
cmoulder
03-23-2019, 07:37
Same as sleeping in a shelter. A net is an easy ad on.
I was eaten alive inside a Borah bug bivy. Better have a tent-type bivy such as MLD (https://mountainlaureldesigns.com/product/mld-bug-bivy/). Put a tarp over that and for a very similar weight you coulda had a Zpacks plex tent already.
4eyedbuzzard
03-23-2019, 11:34
Dont totally disagree. Yet, people don't want to make the effort! That's on them not all on the tarp as a 'bad' choice. They dont make the effort because they don't have to because folks gravitate towards the familiar, what we perceive as simple.I'd submit that people gravitate toward that which is proven reliable and repeatable in the environment it's to be used in. And you have to throw people's own experience, level of skill, and confidence in performance into that equation. If someone has stayed dry in a tent, and knows that others have as well, why would they change without gaining a significant advantage for taking that risk? It's not that a tarp is a bad choice. It's that it isn't always the best choice given the need for reliable performance by any unique user. There's little difference in weight between a tarp + bivy + groundsheet vs an integrated tent design of similar materials. If you like challenging yourself in unusual situations to hone your skills, that's fine. But for many, if not most people, the overriding purpose is to reliably stay dry, not to challenge their skills to see if they can or can not stay dry while in the middle of a hike, while wagering possibility of a very wet experience ruining their hike.
Lets be real. Many on WB are easterners with the main focus the AT. The AT is easy in many ways with it's massive uber analyzed and available infrastructrure. That ease creates a wider mindset of ease, comfort and convenience and it also influences ease of shelter choice. That mindset of familiarity, comfort and ease carries over to expecting it elsewhere and repeatedly.
Grandma Gatewood(REALLY?) and Eric(Eric by his own in person accounts, he was a kid) were not highly skilled, as if it takes a great amount of effort to use a tarp effectively. That's an excuse, an excuse so not to have to make an effort. Fine, don't make the effort, but don't blame it all on the tarp for the tarp not being the choice in the east and specifically the AT or LT. 1) From all evidence I can find (hiker surveys, pics, etc), tents outnumber tarps on western trails as well.
2) While not skilled when they started, I would imagine by the time they both finished their first thru, both GG and ER had learned a thing or two. But that isn't the point regarding them being outliers. They hiked in a different era. GG in 55? ER in 69? You could count on your fingers the number of thru-hikers on any trail at that point in history. Thru-hiking wasn't mainstream or even common by any stretch of the imagination. Tents were pretty heavy back then. GG is an interesting story. Only took a shower curtain originally because she thought there were cabins waiting at the end of every day's hike. So, yeah, she learned a lot about tarps fast. And ER's 80 day AT hike was even the FKT for a while I believe. He wasn't your average hiker. Back then, tents were heavy (a "lightweight" Eureka Timberline was 7 lbs - and expensive in its day), and shelter space was much easier to find on the AT. So much so that many of us didn't carry a tent, we only carried a tarp or tube tent as a backup. Then, as it is now, it was about function and weight and need and anticipated use. When they were originally built, shelters were the answer to the problem of heavy canvas. Yes, they are now a holdover in that sense (would they have been built if today's tech existed back then?) and are part of the unique culture of the AT, as are the concentrated camping areas around them. Some hate them, some love them. But, they tend to attract lots of hikers when limbs and dead stand starts falling in a storm. They have their upside as well.
3) I don't understand the ongoing diatribe regarding "lack of effort" and "easterners". It's as though you have an overriding agenda to prove some closely held negative opinion you have formed regarding eastern hikers vs western hikers. I've met hikers from both coasts and the middle. Their similarities, skill levels, etc, far outnumber their differences in my experience.
Damn well right HYOH. Use what shelter you want. But do not imply a tarp is a BAD choice because it rains.
If you want to talk about effort look at the extent hammockers make. They make hangs as shelters adaptable to a wide range of conditions. That community always is advancing, evolving, not afraid. They don't get complacent. There's always something new coming out of that community. If we don't ever move beyond AT norms we become complacent. That's part of what we're dealing with- complacency.Different gear works better in different environments. Would hammocks work on the CDT? Or in the Whites in NH? Lack of trees is a defining issue. Both are places where free-standing tents are good shelter solutions. But a tarp only strategy can be problematic in the Whites due to terrain, platforms, etc. Been there, done that. I've set up tarps in the Whites, and it's absolutely not the best shelter solution even with the extra effort I supplied. How about alcohol stoves vs canister? Alky definitely takes more effort and skill. Does that make it better everywhere and at any temperature for any purpose? No. It's not all about people's effort or skill. It's more often than not about suitability to the environment and task.
MuddyWaters
03-23-2019, 12:39
These are tarps:
44909
44910
44911
44912
44913
2 would be poor in a storm
1would be allright
2 would be fantastic
Tarps are all different
Its a fallacy that much skill is needed as well
Dont pitch where water runs
Pitch sloped side into wind direction
Use enough anchors/guylines
Pitch low to keep wind out in storm conditions
Thats 95%
Slo-go'en
03-23-2019, 17:06
Well, I draged out my collection of tarps, bivy sacks and tents and laid them out on the coffee table. I have a pretty good collection.
At 1lb, 9 oz for the SMD Trekker tent, I can't see going back to using any of the tarps and bivy sacks I own. They were were a great alturnative when my only tent weighed in at 6 pounds and required a frame pack to carry. Sure glad those days are long gone.
4eyedbuzzard
03-23-2019, 18:00
These are tarps:
44909
44910
44911
44912
44913
2 would be poor in a storm
1would be allright
2 would be fantastic
Tarps are all different
Its a fallacy that much skill is needed as well
Dont pitch where water runs
Pitch sloped side into wind direction
Use enough anchors/guylines
Pitch low to keep wind out in storm conditions
Thats 95%
Here's a couple of tarp pitches from the trail in PA and NH:
44914
44915
Flat pitch at medium height. Okay in fair weather, maybe light rain with minimal wind.
44916
44917
Same location, same tarp, pitched as tipi with door flap shown open and closed. Better in rain and wind, but condensation can be an issue when zippered up.
44918
Same tarp, pitched as tipi on tent platform in NH. Required some thought and additional effort getting it tied down to platform, rocks, and a pull out to tree to get suitable interior height. Pitched it once, then had to move it to where it's shown as the site started filling up and the caretaker requested room for another tent on the platform. A free standing tent would have been a lot easier setup here.
I'm not anti-tarp. I really like the tarp shown in the pics here. It's 8 x 10, just over 1lb and has the added flap for pitching as a zippered tipi if needed to hunker down in a storm. But it has its limitations. Like any tarp, bugs get in, water can come in underneath, etc. Even with good site selection, you don't always get the fall line of rain runoff right. It's a good low weight option in late summer/early fall when the bugs are minimum. It's decent at rain protection, but I wouldn't call it as good as a tent. There are times a tent is a better choice IMO. I wouldn't choose it as my only shelter on a LD hike where both bug and rain protection were considerations. But we all have different preferences when it comes to such things.
Feral Bill
03-23-2019, 18:12
8x10 Etowah silnylon tarp with stakes and lines: 18 Oz
Sea to Summit bug net (works well): 7.8 Oz
Ground Cloth (sylnylon scrap): 4 Oz
Total < 30 Oz.
No bugs expected? 22 Oz
Snow? Blue foam pad eliminates ground cloth. 18 Oz
Gained? Tons of room, much less condensation, greater contact with surroundings. Tarp works with hammock as well, and can make an extra shelter for groups when using tents.
"...you do not really need a tent in rain, except perhaps when the rain is heavy and prolonged and wind driven. There are, as we shall see, better shelters." Colin Fletcher, The Complete Walker.
The defense rests
4eyedbuzzard
03-23-2019, 18:34
8x10 Etowah silnylon tarp with stakes and lines: 18 Oz
Sea to Summit bug net (works well): 7.8 Oz
Ground Cloth (sylnylon scrap): 4 Oz
Total < 30 Oz.
No bugs expected? 22 Oz
Snow? Blue foam pad eliminates ground cloth. 18 Oz
Gained? Tons of room, much less condensation, greater contact with surroundings. Tarp works with hammock as well, and can make an extra shelter for groups when using tents.
"...you do not really need a tent in rain, except perhaps when the rain is heavy and prolonged and wind driven. There are, as we shall see, better shelters." Colin Fletcher, The Complete Walker.
The defense restsBelow quoted from Andrew Skurka, a guy who also knows a bit about hiking and gear, who prefers to use different shelter systems based upon the environment and conditions. I bet he and Colin Fletcher and Ed Garvey and others would probably all have slightly differing opinions.
Modular Tent
If I had to own a single shelter system, this would be it. It can be used successfully in all 3+ seasons and in nearly all locations, with relatively few tradeoffs. The same cannot be said of my other shelter systems, which perform better in niche settings but which have more limitations.
Tarp & Bivy
On summer and fall trips in the Mountain West, I normally go to bed under cloudless skies and with no bug pressure. For these conditions, the Modular Tent is overkill, so I instead carry a Tarp & Bivy. The tarp offers insurance against the occasional rain event; I rarely have to pitch it. And the bivy protects me from early-morning mosquitoes and any crawling insects. The weight-savings of the Tarp & Bivy is significant, but many backpackers will find it too minimalist.
Gathered End Hammock
To understand why hammocks are a legitimate backpacking shelter, take a stroll on the Appalachian Trail or in a National Park like Glacier or Rocky Mountain with designated backcountry campsites. You will find a dearth of quality ground sites, and a prevalence of horrible ones: hard-packed, standing water, sloping, rocky and rooty, and inhabited by “mini-bears” like mice and squirrels.
Hammocks are the solution. For a night of consistent and comfortable sleep, needed are just two sturdy trees about five stride-lengths apart. Throughout the eastern woodlands, they are easy to find.
I don't see the need to "defend" one system over another just because I personally prefer one over another. They all have their advantages and disadvantages based on conditions.
T.S.Kobzol
03-23-2019, 18:38
Here is mine on 3 different trips...we survived [emoji3]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190323/6aac86ff3d108dd307264ba850aad1dc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190323/1ba0af40081d23f2492d9be3dc8d265a.jpg
One near Harpers Ferry and one near Bondcliff in White Mountains
Here on one of the islands in Stonington
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190323/da8902ff8047d9da77034a22f4992c2e.jpg
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MuddyWaters
03-23-2019, 18:49
Survived squall just fine. But next rain came and spent all night here.
44919
Nice evening amongst the cow dung....
44920
44921
Feral Bill
03-23-2019, 19:01
[QUOTE=4eyedbuzzard;
I don't see the need to "defend" one system over another just because I personally prefer one over another. They all have their advantages and disadvantages based on conditions.[/QUOTE]
We agree! No need to attack any one system, either. The OP was looking for a basis to choose. If he is interested in tarping, he can get one for a few buck at the hardware store, give it a try himself. Tents can be rented, as well.
On summer and fall trips in the Mountain West, I normally go to bed under cloudless skies and with no bug pressure. For these conditions, the Modular Tent is overkill, so I instead carry a Tarp & Bivy. The tarp offers insurance against the occasional rain event; I rarely have to pitch it. And the bivy protects me from early-morning mosquitoes and any crawling insects. The weight-savings of the Tarp & Bivy is significant, but many backpackers will find it too minimalist.
Or not minimalist enough. I've spent well over 1000 nights camping out in the "Mountain West", with (or without) a tarp, never used a bivy, and never once experienced crawling insects (or arachnids) trying to sleep with me. In this environment, I would consider the bivy sack an entirely psychological need.
MuddyWaters
03-23-2019, 20:46
In this environment, I would consider the bivy sack an entirely psychological need.
The greatest need of all.....
Apologies to 4eyed buzzard if I came off combative.
Understand I can only swill down so much anti tarp rhetoric, tarps are a problem, when it's obvious sometimes those most vociferous are sometimes the ones' who've had issues finding solutions instead of more intently focusing on possible solutions. What you're saying isn't untrue. :)
Below quoted from Andrew Skurka, a guy who also knows a bit about hiking and gear, who prefers to use different shelter systems based upon the environment and conditions.
Couldn't agree more with Andrew. That's why I too have two different shelter systems. Hammocks, tarps, shaped tarps, mids, bivies, and two tents. I find myself still cowboy camping and UL flat or Cat cut tarping most often. Different tools. If I had to pick one I can't because it means having to put aside put aside diversity of choices and a more modular/component based shelter system mindset which goes against UL minimalist tenets of systems and integration. I want to be connected with Nature, exposed to it, living and breathing as part of it, not separated from it with a piece of silny or DCF. All this comes together in a more minimalist les consumptive approach. Got me to build and live in a Tiny House PT. It was easy to transition to that lifestyle. That lifestyle and trail style are less departed. It's similar.
Slo-go'en
03-23-2019, 21:50
The nice thing about this topic is that it can be debated endlessly :)
Tarps aren't all bad and tents aren't all good. Each has it's trade offs. It's important to know what the trade offs are between them to make an intelligent choice.
If you do need bug protection, and often you do, then you need a net. The advantage to having a trap/net combination is you can just use one or the other depending on conditions. The advantage to a tent is there is less fuss factor. As for as weight, the tarp/net combo will come in about the same as an equivalent tent. Now it's a bit of a toss up as to which way to go, so the final decision may just come down to cost.
In this environment, I would consider the bivy sack an entirely psychological need.The greatest need of all.....
Indeed, no less worthy a category of need!
The advantage to having a trap/net combination is you can just use one or the other depending on conditions.
I guess that assumes that you only own one or the other -- a tarp or a tent. If you own both, then you can still use one or the other depending on conditions. So I think you're right about it coming down to cost (a tarp/tent combo will likely cost a good bit more than a tarp/bug-net combo), and whether or not that cost is worth the advantage of having a full tent in bug-mode.
4eyedbuzzard
03-24-2019, 08:09
Apologies to 4eyed buzzard if I came off combative.
Understand I can only swill down so much anti tarp rhetoric, tarps are a problem, when it's obvious sometimes those most vociferous are sometimes the ones' who've had issues finding solutions instead of more intently focusing on possible solutions. What you're saying isn't untrue. :)Apology not necessary. We are all passionate debaters. Certainly gave the OP an earful. And hopefully with some good info mixed in.
Or not minimalist enough. I've spent well over 1000 nights camping out in the "Mountain West", with (or without) a tarp, never used a bivy, and never once experienced crawling insects (or arachnids) trying to sleep with me. In this environment, I would consider the bivy sack an entirely psychological need.
There's another word throw about that conjures up different things - bivy. Most dont use a bivy so...
Some see a bivy as a bug bivy, WR bivy, WP bivy, as a stand alone, with another piece such as a tarp, etc.
For me, bivy use isn't psychological security based to single out insect protection. I dont even own a bug net bivy.
Ron at MLD offers a list of some the benefits of why I'll use a WR bivy such as the MLD Superlight:
1. To be part of a total sleep heat retention system, adding 5 – 15 degrees of warmth, especially when even a slight wind gets under and around your shelter.
2. Bug protection.
3. Built in ground cloth.
4. To protect from any blown or splashed rain /snow that gets in under your overhead shelter.
5. To shave weight from a total shelter system. It’s a 7 oz multi-purpose piece of gear that allows for a lighter sleeping bag, a smaller overhead shelter, and no ground cloth, or extra bug protection system.
6. It can be used alone for night temps above about 65 degrees when you do not need a sleeping bag but do need some wind/water protection. It adds a bit of warmth (like a sheet.)
7. It can be used alone, with no overhead tarp, for cowboy camping.
8. It pairs perfectly with a backcountry-style quilt to limit warm air venting during night moves.
9. By putting your sleep pad inside the bivy you increase the sleep pads thermal efficiency by limiting convective heat loss.
Using a bivy changes the sleep system's characteristics and melds elements of that system with the shelter system. It can be both a shelter and a sleep system component. A MLD Superlight or Ti Goat Ptarmigan is also apparel if needed in a pinch draped over shoulders or around waist. And, FWIW a tent enclosed or otherwise can and in some incidences IMHO should be perceived as part of the sleep system too! A bag or quilt used inside a tent adds warmth, reduces or eliminates drafts, changes quilt or bag face fabric performance traits, etc A tent is likened to a large bivy. And a bivy is likened to a minimalist tent.
sure, a bivy has uses ... that's why people use them. But as a requirement for tarp usage in the "Mountain West", not so much. The only factor here that is directly related to whether or not one is needed in conjunction with a tarp is the notion that you could use a smaller tarp with a bivy. I've seen tarps as light as 3.5oz that are tiny, and would only work with a 7oz bivy. But then, I can use a much larger tarp that weighs 7.5oz, so the bivy doesn't do anything for me in that regard. If you figure in the groundsheet I would carry, it comes out about the same weight, and more space under the larger tarp.
(As far as carrying a bivy + a lighter sleeping bag ... that sounds like dreaming to me. 7oz of down is going to be lot warmer than bivy sack, no matter how you slice it.)
And then of course is the part you left out Dogwood: "The Mountain West". Bugs, Splashing, and 65° nights are three bivy cases I've never encountered in that environment. Just my experience, ymmv!
I've seen tarps as light as 3.5oz that are tiny, and would only work with a 7oz bivy. But then, I can use a much larger tarp that weighs 7.5oz, so the bivy doesn't do anything for me in that regard.
That's a worthy wt saving perspective IMO. I'm of the flat and cat cut A frame tarp shelter set up perspective too its greater wt savings to simply add the greater 2-3 ozs in fabric for greater coverage than adding a 6-8 oz bivy for spin drift. FWIW, I'm not using a bivy solely for splash protection. Again, it can be that as part of the reason but not the cumulative sum of THE reason.
(As far as carrying a bivy + a lighter sleeping bag ... that sounds like dreaming to me. 7oz of down is going to be lot warmer than bivy sack, no matter how you slice it.)
I agree. But now you're leaving out the part a bivy can be both a shelter and sleep system component. In that context there are cross over interconnected benefits.
And then of course is the part you left out Dogwood: "The Mountain West". Bugs, Splashing, and 65° nights are three bivy cases I've never encountered in that environment. Just my experience, ymmv
In that Mountain West you never experienced rain or snow, bugs or 65 temps?
Not debating. Adding :D
MuddyWaters
03-24-2019, 13:16
My view has always been, if you need a wr bivy to stay dry with tarp, your tarp is too small.
I use a bug bivy or solo net tent with 8oz shaped tarp. For me, combo works great.
Bug bivy or narrow net tent can be used in shelters , by themselves, or with tarp. Total protection and flexibility for 13 -18oz.
If there were better system at any cost, id be using it.
Only thing I don't like is the pole is outside the net tent when the net tent is pitched under the tarp. I like to hang my pack from my pole to keep it off the ground and out of the way. When I hang it outside the net tent it kind of swings into the net tent and encroaches on room. This is because the pole leans at an angle. The vertical pole inside my Hexamid is much better in this in that regard.
In that Mountain West you never experienced rain or snow, bugs or 65 temps?
Not debating. Adding :D
Ha, no worries, yeah just sharing my experiences. Yes, I have seen snow and rain, but snow doesn't splash, and spindrift doesn't hurt anything, and I've never seen rain hard enough that an 8x10 tarp didn't do the trick just fine. Sleeping bag shells are already water resistant, and mine have always worked just fine in this regard. I've slept in snowstorms above treeline in Wind River with no shelter at all other than a jacket over my head, and the sleeping bag performed fine. I got buried in snow, while my down stayed perfectly dry.
No, I've never seen bugs or 65° temps at night in the mountains out west.
Salmon you're doing it all wrong. HMHD :D
Slo-go'en
03-24-2019, 21:33
I remember a trip I took in the Canadian Rockies where the mosquitos were so bad (for 3 solid weeks) I would have gone insane had it not been for my tent. As soon as we got to camp there would be a cloud of Skeeters swarming around us. Set the tent up as quick as possible and get in for some relief. Cooking dinner had to be done in full rain suit. Gortex was the only thing those buggers couldn't bite through. And when it stays twilight until past midnight, they are out for a long time.
The second Canadian Rockies trip I took, bugs weren't a problem because it rained for 3 weeks.
It really depends on where you are and when your there as to what will be effective.
Traillium
03-24-2019, 22:18
We don’t have alligators or crocodiles up here in Canada because our mozzies are so fierce. I always paddle or hike with mosquito netting as potential coverage. Except when there’s snow on the ground …
Sure, I sleep uncovered out in the open in summer. Quite often, the next night, or the next campsite has fearsome bugs after dusk. Mozzie netting is an essential item up here.
Shall I also mention no-see-ums or black flies? …
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MuddyWaters
03-24-2019, 22:22
We don’t have alligators or crocodiles up here in Canada because our mozzies are so fierce.
I know your jesting,
But fun fact, actually its because when incubation temperature is outside a very narrow range, the eggs are all born one sex.
Traillium
03-24-2019, 22:27
But fun fact, actually its because when incubation temperature is outside a very narrow range, the eggs are all born one sex.
Now only if that were to work on mozzies!
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Salmon you're doing it all wrong. HMHD :D
:D
Now Slo' has a good point about the Canadian Rockies. I haven't experienced bad bugs at *night* in the Rockies, but I've definitely been far enough north that "night" never really fully happens, and mosquitos have a big Dusk Party 24/7.
T.S.Kobzol
03-25-2019, 11:28
As long as we all drink the cool aid...one thing i noticed in mosquito infested situations is that with a teepee tarp (hmg mid). If you pitch it low enough i.e a couple inches from the ground or less and if you kill all bugs inside the mosquitoes don’t really crawl under to enter. They kind of buzz higher or sit on the fabric waiting...
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As long as we all drink the cool aid...one thing i noticed in mosquito infested situations is that with a teepee tarp (hmg mid). If you pitch it low enough i.e a couple inches from the ground or less and if you kill all bugs inside the mosquitoes don’t really crawl under to enter. They kind of buzz higher or sit on the fabric waiting...
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You must have a specialized tarp understanding developed over yrs of tarp experience...or, maybe you simply haven't turned your mind off? ;) Addressing insects can be a simple as that. Wasn't that not difficult?
English Stu
04-02-2019, 10:28
I have done 1000 mile or so on the AT. I Go-lite tarped about 750 miles south to Mt Springer and I have done two other sections North including Mt Katahdin with a TarpTent Moment. I tarped across the European Alps. Done other long hikes in the UK.
I experimented with a Gatewood Cape and had net skirt added. My problem with tarp and the Cape was the pitch footprint required with all the guy lines; add in the tree roots everywhere you want to stake issue and it can take along time finding a pitch, especially if adding a bug net.
I now have Tarptent Notch and like its simplicity and easy pitching. I use the TT Moment in the winter. I do have a MLD Superlite bivvy which I know is a bit belt and braces but in big rains you sleep well not worrying about waking up in puddle, plus I can cowboy camp in good weather.
I have been in a couple of hurricane rain spins and a tropical storm so have a seen a bit of rain. My base weight is about 12 pounds.
If tarping you need a few lengthy shakedown hikes with all your gear to make sure you gain confidence with them.
Tipi Walter
04-02-2019, 12:01
I just got back from a trip so I'm late to the discussion.
I've solved the Tarp vs Tent question by using a Tent which becomes a Tarp when desired---I just remove the inner tent and use the tent as a . . . uh . . . tarp. See pic---
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2017-Trips-79/18-Days-in-the-Emerald-Thicket/i-5VmVDFM/0/a2d9e042/XL/Trip%20183%20%28410%29-XL.jpg
Here's my "tarp"---and it even has its own set of poles. Btw, any tent fly is a tarp w/o the inner.
But I agree with Colter and others who recommend an enclosed tent with a floor and an inner canopy---for a variety of reasons. Bugs and noseeums are one big reason. Ground water is another. Wind blown spindrift is another. And terrific windstorms. And terrible condensation in the winter under the right conditions---negating the use of any kind of single wall shelter.
Tried this (tarp-like setup) with two of my freestanding tents by using a DIY groundsheet providing the right setup points for the poles.
After a few test runs I didn't find it useful at all, so I'm just using my tents exactly the way they were designed.
Tipi Walter
04-02-2019, 13:01
On my most recent trip I ran into the Cranbrook School out of Michigan pulling their 50th Annual 11 day wilderness trip and all the kids and trip leaders use tarps. Here's an interesting tarp configuration used by the kids at around 5,000 feet on a cold and windy night (in NC)---get that sucker low!!!
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2019-Trips-195-/24-Day-Expedition-to-Wildcat-Creek/i-J3pQjLx/0/2c41686f/XL/Trip%20196%20%28228%29-XL.jpg
Here's a typical leader's tarp---smaller to house 3 trip leaders (the 7 kids use a larger tarp as above)---
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2019-Trips-195-/24-Day-Expedition-to-Wildcat-Creek/i-4d4VKtF/0/694037f2/XL/Trip%20196%20%28191%29-XL.jpg
And the leaders don't have to use these heavy silver tarps---they can improvise. Here's Hannah's leaders tarp---
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2019-Trips-195-/24-Day-Expedition-to-Wildcat-Creek/i-VBkQsXM/0/dec1ce02/XL/Trip%20196%20%28215%29-XL.jpg
My view has always been, if you need a wr bivy to stay dry with tarp, your tarp is too small.
Maybe. Maybe not.
Site selection can play a more important role in some tarp set ups like A frame or 1/2 mids. If in a traditional tent and the entrance was faced into the oncoming wind driven rain You could get rain or splash inside the tent with some designs. The same goes true for tarps. I'd guesstimate those that do employ a WR bivy aren't just doing it to address splash but also to amend their sleeping bag/quilt sleep system. But now we're bringing together the less familiar tarp story with the sometimes misunderstood bivy story.:D
And, this is where 4eyedbuzzard makes a good pt that tarp usage can become complicated under some buggy wet weather windy scenarios with the modular/component based approach.
Ron gave a quick bivy run down:
1. To be part of a total sleep heat retention system, adding 5 – 15 degrees of warmth, especially when even a slight wind gets under and around your shelter.
2. Bug protection.
3. Built in ground cloth.
4. To protect from any blown or splashed rain /snow that gets in under your overhead shelter.
5. To shave weight from a total shelter system. It’s a 7 oz multi-purpose piece of gear that allows for a lighter sleeping bag, a smaller overhead shelter, and no ground cloth, or extra bug protection system.
6. It can be used alone for night temps above about 65 degrees when you do not need a sleeping bag but do need some wind/water protection. It adds a bit of warmth (like a sheet.)
7. It can be used alone, with no overhead tarp, for cowboy camping.
8. It pairs perfectly with a backcountry-style quilt to limit warm air venting during night moves.
9. By putting your sleep pad inside the bivy you increase the sleep pads thermal efficiency by limiting convective heat loss.
Tipi Walter
04-02-2019, 15:54
None of the Cranbrook kids bring bivy bags---so when things get bad with their tarps they resort to lashing up end sheets to block cold wind and snow---
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2018-Trips-188-/22-Days-in-the-Cold/i-LD6TVBC/0/cb67868b/XL/Trip%20189%20%28320%29-XL.jpg
Tipi Walter
04-02-2019, 15:56
Here's another pic of their technique---taken back in 2013 in a different cold storm---
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/Tipi-Walter-Cranbrook/i-krHsSSZ/0/94c55788/L/TRIP%20143%20172-L.jpg
Tipi Walter
04-02-2019, 16:00
One advantage to a tarp is you can build a small wood fire underneath if needed---
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2016-Trips-171/24-Days-in-the-Pisgah-Holyland/i-CKmLnz5/0/d5949227/XL/TRIP%20174%20Pt2%20020-XL.jpg
One advantage to a tarp is you can build a small wood fire underneath if needed---
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2016-Trips-171/24-Days-in-the-Pisgah-Holyland/i-CKmLnz5/0/d5949227/XL/TRIP%20174%20Pt2%20020-XL.jpg
What's the shelter in the background, BA?
That low of pitch can get you through some seriously nasty weather. "30 -24" tarp heights can get old when the ground and you are drenched and you have to crawl underneath in wet weather or crawl out from underneath in teh middle of a saint night. Wonder if they use pee bottles? These tarps are wide enough they could pitch the ridge higher while still pitching hems to teh ground increasing livability.
Tipi Walter
04-02-2019, 21:21
What's the shelter in the background, BA?
That would be Amy's Big Agnes something or other.
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That low of pitch can get you through some seriously nasty weather. "30 -24" tarp heights can get old when the ground and you are drenched and you have to crawl underneath in wet weather or crawl out from underneath in teh middle of a saint night. Wonder if they use pee bottles? These tarps are wide enough they could pitch the ridge higher while still pitching hems to teh ground increasing livability.
They abide by the Climbing Rope technique of Tarpage---string a stout long climbing rope to two trees and tighten tremendously and throw over a couple big tarps---leaving room at both ends for 7 kids to come and go---thru both ends. They could lower one end to ground level at the tree trunk but then access would be difficult for those on that end.
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Rope in Action.
One disadvantage to their two tarp system is creating a leaking seam midway down the rope---whereby rain water drains thru the seam. This could be prevented by lifting one rope much higher than the other and shingle the high tarp over the low---something they often forget.
44986
Btw---Big Agnes also makes BIG TENTS---
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They abide by the Climbing Rope technique of Tarpage
Only you can come up with shart like that. Thx for the laugh.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing about the leaky seam. Put the kid you dont like under the leaky seam