View Full Version : Suggestion: don’t tent in Tennessee fields of dream.
Ok. North Carolina has privies, Tennessee has toilet fields.
At Double Springs Shelter they have both. We generally call them minefields or “fields of dreams” (see below for why).
But twice so far we have had people tent right in the middle of the privy field.
Which makes it a bit, err, inconvenient when you head that way to do your business.
I would like to suggest a rule that people don’t tent in that area.
Is is there a way to add that to guides on trail etiquette?
Gambit McCrae
03-25-2019, 08:37
Why don't we put notify people not to crap in the fields and practice better LNT rather then tell people not to tent in the beautiful field bc that's where people poop?
I have never poop'd in a field....
Captain Blue
03-25-2019, 09:01
What is a toilet field?
Make fun, ignore it, but one of the most destructive and polluting animals to land, air, and water besides humans are livestock, specifically modern industrialized cattle farming and dairy cows. It's not noticed as much because it's often conducted away from immediate view. Nothing politically motivated in saying that. The damage witnessed to land through erosion and water contamination and land and water use is significant as a hiker in western backcountry. The US public's love affair with beef takes a huge toll on the environment which extends beyond national borders.
Picture miles upon miles of cow patties and infrequent water sources fouled by livestock feces and urine and erosion affecting the ecosystem.
Make fun, ignore it, but one of the most destructive and polluting animals to land, air, and water besides humans are livestock, specifically modern industrialized cattle farming and dairy cows. It's not noticed as much because it's often conducted away from immediate view. Nothing politically motivated in saying that. The damage witnessed to land through erosion and water contamination and land and water use is significant as a hiker in western backcountry. The US public's love affair with beef takes a huge toll on the environment which extends beyond national borders.
Picture miles upon miles of cow patties and infrequent water sources fouled by livestock feces and urine and erosion affecting the ecosystem.
What did motivate this response? I am not aware of any cattle grazing near Double Springs.
What is a toilet field?
In Tennessee instead of privies they have designated areas to urinate and dig cat holes in. Often a little moisture prone.
At least in March those areas decompose the poop faster than it is going in and work as well as a privy all in all.
Of of course my experience is limited to two fields and the last week.
What it is like in April or May I don’t know.
But both I have seen had people decide to tent right in the midst of them.
The signs are are a bit weather worn but still ...
——————
Other note. The ridge runners have been cheerful, helpful and not at all as advertised.
I have really enjoyed meeting them.
MuddyWaters
03-25-2019, 10:00
Usually have signs
If someone wants to tent in cat field, let them. Theyll figure it out. Ive never not been able to smell one
In Tennessee instead of privies they have designated areas to urinate and dig cat holes in. Often a little moisture prone.
At least in March those areas decompose the poop faster than it is going in and work as well as a privy all in all.
Of of course my experience is limited to two fields and the last week.
What it is like in April or May I don’t know.
But both I have seen had people decide to tent right in the midst of them.
The signs are are a bit weather worn but still ...
——————
Other note. The ridge runners have been cheerful, helpful and not at all as advertised.
I have really enjoyed meeting them.
are they really designated and signed? i've never heard of that (i knew about the lack of privvies) i'm planning to hike hot springs to damascus in may/june. something to look forward to i guess.
and another reason to sleep in the shelter if possible.
full conditions
03-25-2019, 10:43
Ok. North Carolina has privies, Tennessee has toilet fields.
At Double Springs Shelter they have both. We generally call them minefields or “fields of dreams” (see below for why).
But twice so far we have had people tent right in the middle of the privy field.
Which makes it a bit, err, inconvenient when you head that way to do your business.
I would like to suggest a rule that people don’t tent in that area.
Is is there a way to add that to guides on trail etiquette?
If you !@#$ in it they will come?
FreeGoldRush
03-25-2019, 10:50
Pooping in the middle of a field? If you have to go are you supposed to check the field to see if someone is squatting and doing their business? Is there some etiquette rule about where to go back and wait your turn, preferably out of sight? Is the usual routine of going deep enough into the woods that no one can see you not aloud within a certain radius of a poop field?
Its probably best not to write home about the poop fields.
Slo-go'en
03-25-2019, 10:53
are they really designated and signed? i've never heard of that (i knew about the lack of privvies) i'm planning to hike hot springs to damascus in may/june. something to look forward to i guess.
and another reason to sleep in the shelter if possible.
Your pretty safe on the Hot Springs to Damascus leg. There aren't too many shelters without privies along there.
Along the AT in the GSMNP, water is on one side of the hill and your suppose to poop on the other side of the hill. There are (or were) signs which indicate water ->, poop <-
If the shelter is so crowded your forced to tent, the good spots near the shelter will be quickly taken and the late comers will be pushed into the poop field.
Your pretty safe on the Hot Springs to Damascus leg. There aren't too many shelters without privies along there.
Along the AT in the GSMNP, water is on one side of the hill and your suppose to poop on the other side of the hill. There are (or were) signs which indicate water ->, poop <-
If the shelter is so crowded your forced to tent, the good spots near the shelter will be quickly taken and the late comers will be pushed into the poop field.
wait a second, so where are we talking about? just the smokies?
i obviously have no first hand knowledge but i had always heard that the shelters without privies were in the TN/NC border area, north of the park.
never saw anything like that in the smokies but then again i only really stopped at 3 shelters (all have them) and you walk by an actual bathroom.
i guess thats another thing you don't get to take in properly if you don't "stop and smell the roses" and try to hike 20 miles in a day instead.
Your pretty safe on the Hot Springs to Damascus leg. There aren't too many shelters without privies along there.
Along the AT in the GSMNP, water is on one side of the hill and your suppose to poop on the other side of the hill. There are (or were) signs which indicate water ->, poop <-
If the shelter is so crowded your forced to tent, the good spots near the shelter will be quickly taken and the late comers will be pushed into the poop field.
hmm, I dunno here Slo' my friend, a quick scan of the companion shows 18 shelters between hot springs and damascus and only 6 have privies. this includes a stretch of 6 in a row without, then one with, then another 6 without.
Berserker
03-25-2019, 11:14
wait a second, so where are we talking about? just the smokies?
I believe that what the OP is referring to is the couple of shelters in GSMNP that don't have privies, but have marked areas (what he has termed a "field") to do one's business. Apparently the OP has seen people set up tents in these areas.
All I have to say about that is ewwwwwwwww. They are well marked, so I don't know why anyone would set up in one. Me personally, when hiked through GSMNP in 2017 I did not use these areas. I walked a significant distance away from the shelter off into the woods and did my own thing in privacy. As for the OP's comment on setting up a tent there, I wholeheartedly agree that people should not be tenting in those areas.
I believe that what the OP is referring to is the couple of shelters in GSMNP that don't have privies, but have marked areas (what he has termed a "field") to do one's business. Apparently the OP has seen people set up tents in these areas.
All I have to say about that is ewwwwwwwww. They are well marked, so I don't know why anyone would set up in one. Me personally, when hiked through GSMNP in 2017 I did not use these areas. I walked a significant distance away from the shelter off into the woods and did my own thing in privacy. As for the OP's comment on setting up a tent there, I wholeheartedly agree that people should not be tenting in those areas.
well in the smokies they shouldnt be tenting at all unless the shelter is full so i would imagine we arent talking about a whole lot of tents....
well in the smokies they shouldnt be tenting at all unless the shelter is full so i would imagine we arent talking about a whole lot of tents....
but in peak season, there could be 20-50 tents..........
but in peak season, there could be 20-50 tents..........
assuming a shelter capacity of 20 thats 40-70 people at a shelter location if no one is two to a tent.
thats insane. not saying it doesn't happen, but if it does that people would do things like camp in the poop field cant really be surprising, can it?
LittleRock
03-25-2019, 12:32
This whole thread is full of confusion and misinformation.
First, there are two Double Springs shelters. One is the Double Spring Gap shelter in the middle of the Smokies and the other is the Double Springs shelter which is about 20 miles south of Damascus. I'm assuming the OP was talking about the latter since all shelters in the Smokies are supposed to have privies.
Second, I never could understand why the TN shelters didn't have privies. It might have made sense 20 or 30 years ago when there fewer hikers but IMO they are desperately needed at all AT shelters today. I always thought the purpose of the AT shelters was to concentrate overnight usage to certain locations so as to minimize impact on the rest of the trail, but then not putting privies in these locations to help manage waste and instead telling hikers to spread out and crap in the woods nearby seems to defeat the purpose.
Seatbelt
03-25-2019, 12:52
This whole thread is full of confusion and misinformation.
First, there are two Double Springs shelters. One is the Double Spring Gap shelter in the middle of the Smokies and the other is the Double Springs shelter which is about 20 miles south of Damascus. I'm assuming the OP was talking about the latter since all shelters in the Smokies are supposed to have privies.
Second, I never could understand why the TN shelters didn't have privies. It might have made sense 20 or 30 years ago when there fewer hikers but IMO they are desperately needed at all AT shelters today. I always thought the purpose of the AT shelters was to concentrate overnight usage to certain locations so as to minimize impact on the rest of the trail, but then not putting privies in these locations to help manage waste and instead telling hikers to spread out and crap in the woods nearby seems to defeat the purpose.
When I hikes the smokies in 2016, 4 out of the 6 shelters south of Clingmans did not have privies. Maybe they have them now, not sure.
Seatbelt
03-25-2019, 12:52
"when I HIKED" sorry.
This whole thread is full of confusion and misinformation.
First, there are two Double Springs shelters. One is the Double Spring Gap shelter in the middle of the Smokies and the other is the Double Springs shelter which is about 20 miles south of Damascus. I'm assuming the OP was talking about the latter since all shelters in the Smokies are supposed to have privies.
Second, I never could understand why the TN shelters didn't have privies. It might have made sense 20 or 30 years ago when there fewer hikers but IMO they are desperately needed at all AT shelters today. I always thought the purpose of the AT shelters was to concentrate overnight usage to certain locations so as to minimize impact on the rest of the trail, but then not putting privies in these locations to help manage waste and instead telling hikers to spread out and crap in the woods nearby seems to defeat the purpose.
double springs shelter in the smokies does in fact have a privy, as per the companion, but not all shelters in the smokies do. it can be probably read that the OP was referring to the one in the smokies when he said "we have both" but i still maintain the statement "shelters in TN have no privies" is largely not talking about the ones in GSMNP.
Feces encounters are becoming an increasing issue. It's not just human feces either. Feces(humans, horses, cows, mice, rats, etc) issues occur on the AT. The AT is NOT the only place to have these encounters impacting where to camp, obtaining water, health, etc.
Thru the CDT for example. Cattle and cow dung and urine contaminate water, land, and air. Closer to home, thru the AT. You can have personal contact with cows and their excrement. The mud holes, erosion, and contaminated water created are human health hazards. Add that feces to the improperly disposed of human feces that presents a health hazard.
evyck da fleet
03-25-2019, 13:59
And we wonder why noro virus seems to pop up as people head into Hot Springs and Erwin. How lazy or tired does one have to be set up a tent in a cat field?
rmitchell
03-25-2019, 14:09
And some complain of the permit system and the presence of ridge runners.
rmitchell
03-25-2019, 14:21
Construction of a privy is expensive. Those in the Smokies are not put in place or maintained by the park service but by volunteers. I think by a coordinated effort by the ATC, the Smoky Mountain Hiking Club and possibly by Friends of the Smokies as well as equestrians.
The privy at Cosby was constructed off site then disassembled and helicoptered to the site. There was an airlift scheduled for the Spence Field privy today but got scrubbed due to weather.
Starchild
03-25-2019, 14:29
As for the Smokies, not all shelters have privies - the ones that don't have a shovel instead and a arrow to point the way. The reason given is 2 fold, the primary one is the maintenance requirement and manpower to do that, which also involved resupplying with duff which is done by horse where allowed. The second reason is that the field method really works well there. The soil is ideal for a very fast breakdown if the hikers cathole correctly.
$hit is everywhere it appears. Just saw an article today about the high levels of fecal matter on McDonald's touch screens.
I always wondered if the boil water advisories in the Smokies are due to the doo-doo leaching into the soil from the other side of the ridge and getting into the springs??
I always wondered if the boil water advisories in the Smokies are due to the doo-doo leaching into the soil from the other side of the ridge and getting into the springs??
is there anywhere anyone has seen ever where it says "this water is so great you don't have to treat or boil it."
"treat or boil water" is standard instruction given everywhere all the time. when it says "dont drink this even if you do treat or boil it" is when you have to worry.
rmitchell
03-25-2019, 14:52
As for the Smokies, not all shelters have privies - the ones that don't have a shovel instead and a arrow to point the way. The reason given is 2 fold, the primary one is the maintenance requirement and manpower to do that, which also involved resupplying with duff which is done by horse where allowed. The second reason is that the field method really works well there. The soil is ideal for a very fast breakdown if the hikers cathole correctly.
Good point.
I think there are issues with a composting privy generating enough heat at higher altitudes.
Usually have signs
If someone wants to tent in cat field, let them. Theyll figure it out. Ive never not been able to smell one
The signs are carved wood. I guess in March with the sleet and such the smell is subdued.
With the weathering the signs are hard to read (though so far I’ve read them all).
This whole thread is full of confusion and misinformation.
First, there are two Double Springs shelters. One is the Double Spring Gap shelter in the middle of the Smokies and the other is the Double Springs shelter which is about 20 miles south of Damascus. I'm assuming the OP was talking about the latter since all shelters in the Smokies are supposed to have privies.
Second, I never could understand why the TN shelters didn't have privies. It might have made sense 20 or 30 years ago when there fewer hikers but IMO they are desperately needed at all AT shelters today. I always thought the purpose of the AT shelters was to concentrate overnight usage to certain locations so as to minimize impact on the rest of the trail, but then not putting privies in these locations to help manage waste and instead telling hikers to spread out and crap in the woods nearby seems to defeat the purpose.
I’m talking the Double Springs south of Gatlinburg and as I said it has both a privy and a sign pointing to the “toilet field” (words on the sign). No shovel.
Next time IMS I will take pictures and screenshot Guthook GPS to confirm I really am in the Smokies (not tonight. Taking a zero in Gatlinburg).
Some of the shelters even have two shovels. Some seem to have none.
Note. I’m only talking about shelters in the Smokies where I’ve personally been, with reservations (worth four dollars each).
I’m talking the Double Springs south of Gatlinburg and as I said it has both a privy and a sign pointing to the “toilet field” (words on the sign). No shovel.
Next time IMS I will take pictures and screenshot Guthook GPS to confirm I really am in the Smokies (not tonight. Taking a zero in Gatlinburg).
Some of the shelters even have two shovels. Some seem to have none.
Note. I’m only talking about shelters in the Smokies where I’ve personally been, with reservations (worth four dollars each).
why would a shelter that has a privy also have a designated poop field? on what basis should one choose which one to use?
Starchild
03-25-2019, 16:51
why would a shelter that has a privy also have a designated poop field? on what basis should one choose which one to use?
Proper use of the field, if it is the right material/moisture would prolong the life of the privi.
Proper use of the field, if it is the right material/moisture would prolong the life of the privi.
well then under what circumstances should one ever elect to use the privy? is it just there for when it rains?
Proper use of the field, if it is the right material/moisture would prolong the life of the privi.
since they are the compostable privies------wouldnt it be better to use those?
Starchild
03-25-2019, 17:23
since they are the compostable privies------wouldnt it be better to use those?
Compostable privies do what the field does, and without the privi maintenance if the hiker did the right thing. Overused composting privies are also a problem and has to be expanded and the 'throne' moved often which is not a fun job (or multiple thrones installed which look funny but are good for facebook posts). Also the bins have to be shoveled out when this happens. Too frequent use and too much dampness (high humidity, rain and urine can do this) will cause the system to go septic.
I would say the privies are good if one wouldn't use the field, or in the rain, and the field for those who will.
I would say the privies are good if one wouldn't use the field, or in the rain, and the field for those who will.
the trouble is, especially in the smokies, is that people dont bury their stuff deep enough.........and there's "toilet blooms" everywhere....
russell field, when i was up there a few year ago----and at the time didnt have a privy (not sure if theres one now)--------was god awful with toilet paper and crap everywhere...
i rather have people use the privy..........
Compostable privies do what the field does, and without the privi maintenance if the hiker did the right thing. Overused composting privies are also a problem and has to be expanded and the 'throne' moved often which is not a fun job (or multiple thrones installed which look funny but are good for facebook posts). Also the bins have to be shoveled out when this happens. Too frequent use and too much dampness (high humidity, rain and urine can do this) will cause the system to go septic.
I would say the privies are good if one wouldn't use the field, or in the rain, and the field for those who will.
"if one wouldn't use the field" lol if the field is so much better ecologically then dont give them a choice"
seems to me like the most likely explanation is there once was no privy and then when one got put in no one wanted to be bothered formally making the field not a big pile of poop any longer.
Starchild
03-25-2019, 17:39
"if one wouldn't use the field" lol if the field is so much better ecologically then dont give them a choice"
Yes then you get into the situation with the smokies, people don't follow the guidelines and don't bury their waste properly, if at all. Having a privy for these people should cut down on the mess.
seems to me like the most likely explanation is there once was no privy and then when one got put in no one wanted to be bothered formally making the field not a big pile of poop any longer.
I do think it was the field first then the privy was added. However it may not be that no one bothered, they might want some people to still use the field.
Slo-go'en
03-25-2019, 17:45
Second, I never could understand why the TN shelters didn't have privies.
Mainly because it takes volunteers to maintain them.
If my memory serves me right, I helped build a composting privy at Double Springs Gap with the Rocky Top crew back in the 90's on a snowy October day. When I went by there about 15 years later the privy had been replaced with a newer one. Composting and moldering privies take maintenance by volunteers and cooperation by the users for them to function properly. I have been by many a privy on the AT where there is no duff or wood chips to add when you finished your business. Some privies had a rake and instructions on how to gather duff but I don't think I ever saw another hiker collecting any when the supply was depleted. The ones that use wood chips have to have the chips packed in by trail maintainers. When I thru hiked back in 2010 many privies were beyond capacity down south. I can see why a cat field would be designated.
Puddlefish
03-25-2019, 17:58
I remember that one shelter in GSMNP with the Rhododendron field area designated as a privy. The vast number of piles of toilet paper and poop pretty much shattered any remaining illusions I had of hikers being environmentally conscious.
If my memory serves me right, I helped build a composting privy at Double Springs Gap with the Rocky Top crew back in the 90's on a snowy October day. When I went by there about 15 years later the privy had been replaced with a newer one. Composting and moldering privies take maintenance by volunteers and cooperation by the users for them to function properly. I have been by many a privy on the AT where there is no duff or wood chips to add when you finished your business. Some privies had a rake and instructions on how to gather duff but I don't think I ever saw another hiker collecting any when the supply was depleted. The ones that use wood chips have to have the chips packed in by trail maintainers. When I thru hiked back in 2010 many privies were beyond capacity down south. I can see why a cat field would be designated.
people use the woodchips as fire starter...
Slo-go'en
03-25-2019, 18:10
hmm, I dunno here Slo' my friend, a quick scan of the companion shows 18 shelters between hot springs and damascus and only 6 have privies. this includes a stretch of 6 in a row without, then one with, then another 6 without.
Hum, I must have skipped most of the ones without a privy. Or got so used to it, it didn't register.
Hum, I must have skipped most of the ones without a privy. Or got so used to it, it didn't register.
well with those big mile days you like to hike its quite likely you skipped 6 consecutive shelters.
I remember that one shelter in GSMNP with the Rhododendron field area designated as a privy. The vast number of piles of toilet paper and poop pretty much shattered any remaining illusions I had of hikers being environmentally conscious.
sounds like Russell field....
4eyedbuzzard
03-25-2019, 18:41
...Second, I never could understand why the TN shelters didn't have privies. It might have made sense 20 or 30 years ago when there fewer hikers but IMO they are desperately needed at all AT shelters today. I always thought the purpose of the AT shelters was to concentrate overnight usage to certain locations so as to minimize impact on the rest of the trail, but then not putting privies in these locations to help manage waste and instead telling hikers to spread out and crap in the woods nearby seems to defeat the purpose.
Mainly because it takes volunteers to maintain them.Or paid caretakers like AMC. Impose and/or raise rates on the campsites/permits, build and maintain privies. Works in NH. To my knowledge, every shelter on the AT in NH has a maintained privy, and they get plenty of use during the hiking season.
Hum, I must have skipped most of the ones without a privy. Or got so used to it, it didn't register.Not registering would probably be the safer bet. I know TipiWalter sometimes talks about birthing a 3 day turtlehead, but that's not a regular (pun intended) schedule for most people unless they only want to hike 4 miles a day - and not because of a heavy Tipi-like load, but because of severe abdominal pain...
Slo-go'en
03-25-2019, 20:26
well with those big mile days you like to hike its quite likely you skipped 6 consecutive shelters.
Maybe I didn't poop for 6 days, you know I can be full of it :)
T.S.Kobzol
03-26-2019, 08:31
Just do it
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Tennessee Viking
03-26-2019, 09:21
There is actually detailed instructions in the ATC trail guide on how to cathole or dispose of waste; even in more rugid areas. Depending on the soil and rockiness around the shelter, there may only be certain areas where waste can decompose.
OP would need to address the ATC, the local maintaining club, or the Smokies to submit feedback about the toilet fields.
rmitchell
03-26-2019, 10:18
I remember that one shelter in GSMNP with the Rhododendron field area designated as a privy. The vast number of piles of toilet paper and poop pretty much shattered any remaining illusions I had of hikers being environmentally conscious.
Yeah, probably Russell Field. I spent a week there one summer working on SWEAT crew. The shelter is right on the trail . Spring is on Tennessee side and the "privy area" is on the Carolina side of the trail in a rhododendron thicket. Pretty steep slope too.
The first thing the crew leaders had us do was to dig a latrine trench on the Carolina side. Six inches or more deep and probably eight feet long and on a level couture . A shovel and zip lock bag with t.p. and hand sanitizer was left at the shelter. They called it the key. If it was missing you knew the privy area was being used.
The trench was left open but each deposit was covered. Some hikers even made use of the trench.
On the last day I woke at daylight and went to use the privy which by then should have been nearly full. It had been completely uncovered and cleaned out during the night. Kind of gross.
We suspected it was the pigs that had run through our camp a few nights before.
Even if waste is well covered pigs (or whatever) may dig it back up. More likely if the hole contains food leftovers. I would think concentrated poop fields would be more likely to attract feral pigs.
T.S.Kobzol
03-26-2019, 11:48
Do pigs eat the toilet paper too? Seems ideal [emoji108][emoji23]
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Shouldn't these hazmat campers be getting some rather interesting trail names? Sleeps on Poop, cathole, crap, dungheap, hazmat camper, privy, field of turds, white bloom, etc. The possibilities are endless. The shelter log should have a long list to be given out in the morning.
These people should be cursing their inattentiveness due to setting up camp tired, in the dark, or just plain oblivious, once it's pointed out to them along with their new trail name.
MuddyWaters
03-26-2019, 12:41
Do pigs eat the toilet paper too? Seems ideal [emoji108][emoji23]
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They eat anything
Used to just crap on ground in my hunting lease if needed
It would be gone completely in a day or two. Eaten by hogs.
Had a bucket of corn once that got water in it thru cracked lid. It sat behind woodpile for over 5 years. I dumped it away from camp, there was big millipede looking bugs in the rotten sour crap. Totally gone next morning, not even a trace left.
LazyLightning
03-26-2019, 12:54
In 2018 there were several shelters in the Smokies with no privies... The sad thing is even with shovels left at the shelter there were still so many people to lazy to dig a hole and piles of crap and toilet paper everywhere. A lot of the time you seen it on the same side as the water source.... I would never get water anywhere near one of those Smokies shelters with no privies.... Also I remember an arrow saying toilet which ever way.... I don't remember a designated open field to poop in anywhere, that sounds like people to lazy to walk more then 50 feet into the woods line... I couldn't believe how close people would crap to the shelters
rmitchell
03-26-2019, 13:45
Yep, pigs cleaned out everything.:eek:
Everyone was a little creeped out.
T.S.Kobzol
03-26-2019, 13:56
I once saw a documentary from ‘somewhere’ where below the privy lived a couple of pigs...let’s just say they never had to shovel it out like the AT volunteers have to [emoji16]
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