Too Much Technology on the Trail?

[greenpete]

This topic has probably been raised before on this Forum. Nonetheless, I think it’s good to continue the discussion. People love gadgets, especially men. I’m probably in the minority, but I feel there’s too much gadgetry on the trail these days. Unless one hikes as an athletic pursuit (for a challenge, for fitness, etc.), the whole idea of a mountain hike is about getting out and enjoying nature, and separating oneself from the artificiality and cushy conveniences of urban/suburban society. Isn’t it? If so, why are so many people dragging the digital revolution onto the trail? Don’t devices like handheld computers (iPhones) and various “apps” compromise the back-to-nature experience? Some things are essential, I realize. Manmade tents, sleeping bags, stoves, matches, etc. And cameras and non-computerized phones are convenient. But have we gone too far? Have we “over-safety’ed” and “over-convenienced” ourselves?

Would love to see how many people, if any, agree with me.

[TNhiker]

in just to say----HYOH....

[perdidochas]

This topic has probably been raised before on this Forum. Nonetheless, I think it’s good to continue the discussion. People love gadgets, especially men. I’m probably in the minority, but I feel there’s too much gadgetry on the trail these days. Unless one hikes as an athletic pursuit (for a challenge, for fitness, etc.), the whole idea of a mountain hike is about getting out and enjoying nature, and separating oneself from the artificiality and cushy conveniences of urban/suburban society. Isn’t it? If so, why are so many people dragging the digital revolution onto the trail? Don’t devices like handheld computers (iPhones) and various “apps” compromise the back-to-nature experience? Some things are essential, I realize. Manmade tents, sleeping bags, stoves, matches, etc. And cameras and non-computerized phones are convenient. But have we gone too far? Have we “over-safety’ed” and “over-convenienced” ourselves?

Would love to see how many people, if any, agree with me.

As TNHiker said, HYOH. I don't go anywhere (besides the water) without my iPhone. Doesn't interfere with my communing with nature at all. Cameras and non-computerized phones aren't as convenient or useful as smartphones. If they were, we wouldn't use smartphones.

[CalebJ]

If you don't want to use it, leave it at home. Otherwise, what other people choose to/not to use is their choice to make.

[greenpete]

As TNHiker said, HYOH. I don't go anywhere (besides the water) without my iPhone. Doesn't interfere with my communing with nature at all. Cameras and non-computerized phones aren't as convenient or useful as smartphones. If they were, we wouldn't use smartphones.

Thanks for responding, but I'm more curious how many people agree with me (see my comment). Also, your use of the word "convenience" leads back to my question "Are we over-conveniencing..."

Also...pardon my ignorance...but I don't know what HYOH means. (I'm a vintage man, and acronyms trouble me.) :)

[greenpete]

If you don't want to use it, leave it at home. Otherwise, what other people choose to/not to use is their choice to make.

Hi CalebJ. I'm not denying it's "their choice to make." Just trying to see how many people agree with me about too much technology.

[trailmercury]

Thanks for responding, but I'm more curious how many people agree with me (see my comment). Also, your use of the word "convenience" leads back to my question "Are we over-conveniencing..."

Also...pardon my ignorance...but I don't know what HYOH means. (I'm a vintage man, and acronyms trouble me.) :)

It's not an acronym, it's an initialism (it doesn't make a word)

HIKE YOUR OWN HIKE

As far as technology:
It's a generational thing, you're a Boomer. A millennial doesn't really know any different. Gen X-ers and especially the Oregon Trail generation, had an analog childhood and a digital adulthood. They might be the demographic on the fence in this discussion.

[Tipi Walter]

Thanks for responding, but I'm more curious how many people agree with me (see my comment). Also, your use of the word "convenience" leads back to my question "Are we over-conveniencing..."

Also...pardon my ignorance...but I don't know what HYOH means. (I'm a vintage man, and acronyms trouble me.) :)

I'm an old timer and still a firm believer in topo maps and paper maps---something you can spread out and ponder and which uses no batteries.

On a trip in January I wrote a long screed on smartphone use in the woods---scroll down to DROOLING ZOMBIES---if you feel up to a Rant.

http://www.trailjournals.com/journal/entry/607170

To me personally---and my opinion only---I think connecting to the Internet while out on a backpacking trip is one of the worst things a bipedal human-wannabe-neanderthal---can do. Can I not take a long break from the computer?????

Then again, I carry a very complex digital camera and a small Sangean radio Oh and my pack uses high falutin' spectra and neato doodads.

Oh and btw---here's my backpacking phone and the only cellphone I need or want---call and text boys---no camera, no Interwad---

44992

[bighammer]

Everyone has a different level of "intimacy" with their phone. I will often forget mine, forget to charge it, forget to un-silence it, etc. I sometimes forget that I can take a photo or look something up; I just see it as a phone. Then there are others that have it out almost all the time. Never enough battery life or data, it's become an umbilical cord to their existence. Those people generally don't bother me except for the occasional inappropriate interruption or distraction. I feel for them that they can't enjoy a moment without their screen as a viewfinder or window into something else. Try to view them with sympathy rather than contempt. (and HYOH)

[Puddlefish]

This is one of those strangely authoritarian topics. Other authoritarians will also agree with you, as they're typing on their PCs/phones to do so, instead of being out in nature chatting with other humans and enjoying nature as they so fondly believe everyone must do, because they know what's best for you.

These devices expand the outdoor experience, they allow people to share their experiences in an efficient way with those who don't have the time or ability to get out on the trail. Right now, I'm typing and interacting with other hikers/want to be hikers as I wait for the temperature to come up a few degrees before I go for my daily hike.

Millions of people share the trail currently. It's not feasible for any of us to carry hatchets and make a fresh bed of fir branches each night as a mattress, it's not feasible for us to fish, and bow hunt our meals. That's the kind of stuff that happens in 1903s adventure fantasy books, and even then they're referring to their previous century.

That kind of wilderness adventure should really be practiced on your own land, and not on public shared land. I personally find drunk/stoned people at campfires to be far more annoying, but that's just me, and I don't propose that people forego that activity just to make me happy.

Edit: Grammar/vocab

[greenpete]

It's not an acronym, it's an initialism (it doesn't make a word)

HIKE YOUR OWN HIKE

As far as technology:
It's a generational thing, you're a Boomer. A millennial doesn't really know any different. Gen X-ers and especially the Oregon Trail generation, had an analog childhood and a digital adulthood. They might be the demographic on the fence in this discussion.

Hey, thanks for the acronym/initialism heads up! (I'm a writer but never knew that before.)

Right, I'm well-familiar with the HYOH cliché. It's often used as a defensive measure. But I'm not being accusatory. Just trying to get a sort-of head count. I like your demographic idea, though. My son is a millennial, and he scratches his head with me as much as I scratch my head with him.

[Tipi Walter]

This is one of those strangely authoritarian topics. Other authoritarians will also agree with you, as they're typing on their PCs/phones to do so, instead of being out in nature chatting with other humans and enjoying nature as they so fondly believe everyone must do, because they know what's best for you.

These devices expand the outdoor experience, they allow people to share their experiences in an efficient way with those who don't have the time or ability to get out on the trail. Right now, I'm typing and interacting with other hikers/want to be hikers as I wait for the temperature to come up a few degrees before I go for my daily hike.

Millions of people share the trail currently. It's not feasible for any of us to carry hatchets and make a fresh bed of fir branches each night as a mattress, it's not feasible for us to fish, and bow hunt our meals. That's the kind of stuff that happens in 1903s adventure fantasy books, and even then they're referring to the last century.

That kind of wilderness adventure should really be practiced on your own land, and not on public shared land. I personally find drunk/stoned people at campfires to be far more annoying, but that's not me, and I don't propose that people forego that activity just to make me happy.

Of course we are using a computer and the Internet to access this forum and type up our posts. There's a time and place for getting on the Net. In my opinion IT'S NOT when I'm out backpacking. Why? Because the temptation is too great to get online with such a device---and the whole reason I go out backpacking is to get away from online surfing and the online community. For me personally when I go backpacking I don't want to be exchanging folding money in a town or eating in a restaurant or skyping or live streaming or whatever else which becomes a distraction from my wilderness experience. That's just me. Everyone is an Authority unto him/her self.

In regards to your highlighted bold statement---on my last trip I saw exactly the idiocy you're talking about---some moron cut up a living fir tree to make his "bough bed"---now imagine if all backpackers decided to do the same---

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2019-Trips-195-/24-Day-Expedition-to-Wildcat-Creek/i-LfrNcQN/0/0c9d538b/XL/Trip%20196%20%2882%29-XL.jpg

[greenpete]

This is one of those strangely authoritarian topics. Other authoritarians will also agree with you, as they're typing on their PCs/phones to do so, instead of being out in nature chatting with other humans and enjoying nature as they so fondly believe everyone must do, because they know what's best for you.

These devices expand the outdoor experience, they allow people to share their experiences in an efficient way with those who don't have the time or ability to get out on the trail. Right now, I'm typing and interacting with other hikers/want to be hikers as I wait for the temperature to come up a few degrees before I go for my daily hike.

Millions of people share the trail currently. It's not feasible for any of us to carry hatchets and make a fresh bed of fir branches each night as a mattress, it's not feasible for us to fish, and bow hunt our meals. That's the kind of stuff that happens in 1903s adventure fantasy books, and even then they're referring to the last century.

That kind of wilderness adventure should really be practiced on your own land, and not on public shared land. I personally find drunk/stoned people at campfires to be far more annoying, but that's not me, and I don't propose that people forego that activity just to make me happy.

Hi Puddlefish. (I think the "authoritarian" thing can work both ways, though, don't you?)

Regarding "hatchets" and "fir branches," please re-read my original post. I say that some manmade items are essential, others convenient. I'm not arguing we return to the 19th century. I'm just saying that I think we're overdoing it. I don't agree that devices always "expand the outdoor experience." They can, yes (particularly with the "sharing" aspect) but more often they diminish it. When one is so busy checking messages, coordinates, snapping photos, etc. that one doesn't see the red-tail swooping over the valley to the left, the nature experience is, indeed, diminished.

[blue indian]

If you feel the need to infiltrate the forest with your devices, keep it yourself.

My issue is when other humans impose their devices upon me and nature. I remember passing a couple of bros hiking in North Ga that were blasting awful techno music on a massive speaker as they cruised down the trail. I was literally speechless.. I usually find re-newed confidence in the human race on trail, these guys were the anti-thesis.

[Southeast]

I'm an old timer and still a firm believer in topo maps and paper maps---something you can spread out and ponder and which uses no batteries.

On a trip in January I wrote a long screed on smartphone use in the woods---scroll down to DROOLING ZOMBIES---if you feel up to a Rant.

http://www.trailjournals.com/journal/entry/607170

To me personally---and my opinion only---I think connecting to the Internet while out on a backpacking trip is one of the worst things a bipedal human-wannabe-neanderthal---can do. Can I not take a long break from the computer?????

Then again, I carry a very complex digital camera and a small Sangean radio Oh and my pack uses high falutin' spectra and neato doodads.

Oh and btw---here's my backpacking phone and the only cellphone I need or want---call and text boys---no camera, no Interwad---

44992

Serious question... why are you on the internet off the trail and how is that different?

[Tipi Walter]

Hi Puddlefish. (I think the "authoritarian" thing can work both ways, though, don't you?)

Regarding "hatchets" and "fir branches," please re-read my original post. I say that some manmade items are essential, others convenient. I'm not arguing we return to the 19th century. I'm just saying that I think we're overdoing it. I don't agree that devices always "expand the outdoor experience." They can, yes (particularly with the "sharing" aspect) but more often they diminish it. When one is so busy checking messages, coordinates, snapping photos, etc. that one doesn't see the red-tail swooping over the valley to the left, the nature experience is, indeed, diminished.

Devices have nothing to do with "expanding the outdoor experience." Such an "expansion" belief seems to come from apologists who in fact support such devices in the backcountry. The best way to expand the outdoor experience is to live outdoors 24/7---in all conditions and in all kinds of weather.



If you feel the need to infiltrate the forest with your devices, keep it yourself.

My issue is when other humans impose their devices upon me and nature. I remember passing a couple of bros hiking in North Ga that were blasting awful techno music on a massive speaker as they cruised down the trail. I was literally speechless.. I usually find re-newed confidence in the human race on trail, these guys were the anti-thesis.

This happened to me once too. Some idiots came up to Naked Ground Gap in Slickrock wilderness---on a cold winter night---and while guzzling alcohol proceeded to crank up their BOOM BOX while setting up their tents.. I had to go over to their camp and tell them to shut it off. Which fortunately they did.

[jefals]

so, have you got your answer to how many people agree with you yet?
?

[Puddlefish]

Hi Puddlefish. (I think the "authoritarian" thing can work both ways, though, don't you?)

Regarding "hatchets" and "fir branches," please re-read my original post. I say that some manmade items are essential, others convenient. I'm not arguing we return to the 19th century. I'm just saying that I think we're overdoing it. I don't agree that devices always "expand the outdoor experience." They can, yes (particularly with the "sharing" aspect) but more often they diminish it. When one is so busy checking messages, coordinates, snapping photos, etc. that one doesn't see the red-tail swooping over the valley to the left, the nature experience is, indeed, diminished.

No, I've not seen it go both ways. I've never been internet lectured that I'm enjoying nature the wrong way because I don't bring a smart phone. I've been mocked because I love music more than I love birdsong.

I sat for an hour on a trail up the side of Hawk Mountain watching ... (some sort of non hawk raptors, I forget what kind) circling and diving to hunt. I was listening to lovely music the entire time. I stopped for ten minutes and watched a bunny eating clover on the side of the trail once, it was not ten feet from me. I took a pic and sent it to my bunny loving daughter. A few weeks later, I sent a pic from the trail of a westbound brightly shelled turtle, to my turtle loving daughter.

One can just as easily miss things unfolding one's big paper map. One can sit an a canvas tent and read a paper novel, or writing in a paper trail diary and be anti social, just as easily as one can by sitting off to the side of a shelter with one's nose in a phone checking the box scores of your favorite sportsball team. You can sit quietly by the side of the trail and knit, if that's your thing.

The electronic device is not the determining factor on if you do, or if you don't enjoy the outdoors, it's not the determining factor on if you socialize with others on the trail. Why would you (the general you, not the specific you) need to worry if I'm enjoying my trail experience properly? It's my trail experience, and I'm minding my own business.

[Tipi Walter]

Serious question... why are you on the internet off the trail and how is that different?

I'm on the internet right now because I'm not out on a backpacking trip and because I'm sitting indoors at home. I'm also with my significant others. The whole purpose of a backpacking trip FOR ME is to avoid computer use and the internet and home life and achieve some amount of solitude in communion with nature without conflicting distractions. I view backpacking in what's left of wilderness and the forest as returning to our Neanderthal Roots and our home---you know, where we lived as humans for the last 200,000 years---what's left of pristine Nature.

There's has to be a balance---home life vs outdoor life. Or if you're really lucky---full time outdoor life.

[Puddlefish]

Devices have nothing to do with "expanding the outdoor experience." Such an "expansion" belief seems to come from apologists who in fact support such devices in the backcountry. The best way to expand the outdoor experience is to live outdoors 24/7---in all conditions and in all kinds of weather.
This happened to me once too. Some idiots came up to Naked Ground Gap in Slickrock wilderness---on a cold winter night---and while guzzling alcohol proceeded to crank up their BOOM BOX while setting up their tents.. I had to go over to their camp and tell them to shut it off. Which fortunately they did.
I was tired, and out of shape, had hiked as far as I could, set my tent up early in a field below a bald. Hiked to the top of the bald for the view. Trudged back down and was asleep by 8. There were four other tents of sleeping hikers by the time I got down. Around 9, I hear some noise, I figure it's just some folks setting up tents. Then more noise, then more noise. A group of 8 locals set up a huge 8 person tent, set a campfire in the middle of a field and were proceeding to party.

I walked over, said Hello, and sleepily said, "we got here a few hours ago, for some needed sleep, it was a beautiful quiet spot... also, please keep that fire small and extinguish it completely when your done, because I don't want to burn to death in my tent." They looked up, apologized profusely, and actually didn't make a peep for the rest of the night. I was shocked.

The next morning, the guy I was with, said "Thank God, you went over their, because I was about to start screaming at them.

[Puddlefish]

Devices have nothing to do with "expanding the outdoor experience." Such an "expansion" belief seems to come from apologists who in fact support such devices in the backcountry. The best way to expand the outdoor experience is to live outdoors 24/7---in all conditions and in all kinds of weather.


I find this a strange attitude from you. You post far more educational/trip pics than I ever do. I've learned a good bit from your technology on the trail.

[Tipi Walter]

I was tired, and out of shape, had hiked as far as I could, set my tent up early in a field below a bald. Hiked to the top of the bald for the view. Trudged back down and was asleep by 8. There were four other tents of sleeping hikers by the time I got down. Around 9, I hear some noise, I figure it's just some folks setting up tents. Then more noise, then more noise. A group of 8 locals set up a huge 8 person tent, set a campfire in the middle of a field and were proceeding to party.

I walked over, said Hello, and sleepily said, "we got here a few hours ago, for some needed sleep, it was a beautiful quiet spot... also, please keep that fire small and extinguish it completely when your done, because I don't want to burn to death in my tent." They looked up, apologized profusely, and actually didn't make a peep for the rest of the night. I was shocked.

The next morning, the guy I was with, said "Thank God, you went over their, because I was about to start screaming at them.

This is a good story and points out the problems that can arise when camping in a "common area"---and not a single small site where you get "first dibs" and no one comes in to mess up your spot.

These common areas---open campgrounds---can quickly turn to crap when Bonfire enthusiasts come out to party---and there always seems to be alcohol involved. My only advice is---Bring Earplugs. You'll need them when the "monkey howling" begins.

But you lucked out---they actually gave a crap and got quiet. Being quiet in a shared camp is part of the LNT mindset---something groups need to remember, and esp boy scout troops.

[Tipi Walter]

I find this a strange attitude from you. You post far more educational/trip pics than I ever do. I've learned a good bit from your technology on the trail.

I mentioned using a digital camera and radio etc. My rant concerns gaining Internet Access while out on a trip. I.e. bringing a smartphone. For me I don't want to be online ever when I'm out. You're mixing up the technologies. As mentioned, my pack is a very complex piece of technology---as are my boots and MSR stove and WM sleeping bag etc. But none of these items---while space age devices---allow me to surf on the internet.

The OP mentioned "handheld computers"---which to me is bringing a device to allow internet access. It's a nitpicking distinction of course---as my camera is also a handheld computer. I just draw the line at getting on the web.

Then again, who goes out with no technology? Or gadgets? Even a sharp hatchet is a gadget.

[Southeast]

I find this a strange attitude from you. You post far more educational/trip pics than I ever do. I've learned a good bit from your technology on the trail.

Yea I enjoy seeing Tipi’s selfies from the trail :)

[TexasBob]

.......As far as technology:
It's a generational thing, you're a Boomer. A millennial doesn't really know any different. Gen X-ers and especially the Oregon Trail generation, had an analog childhood and a digital adulthood. They might be the demographic on the fence in this discussion.

There is your answer. My observation is if you grew up in the smart phone era you may be more likely to see a smart phone as a constant companion - always on and within arm's reach. If you are a geezer like me then you may be more likely to see a smart phone as a convenience that can be turned off and stowed away until needed. Not a value judgement just an observation.

[soilman]

I am not a Luddite but I don't own a smartphone. I have recently carried a Kindle and Ipod to use in my tent. I think many people have an addiction to smartphone use and it is not a generational issue. I have seen people of all ages glued to their phones. I don't see how devices expand the outdoor experience for the user. On the other hand I have read accounts of hikers spending extra time in town just so they can catch up with all their social networking. This seems to subtract from the outdoor experience. Like others, what I object to is the intrusion of their use by others on my space. I have encountered hikers on the trail with their music blasting so they could share it with their friends. On numerous occasions people have carried out phone conversations at shelters, overlooks, etc. Just like any public place, to me that is just plain rude.

[Tipi Walter]

There is your answer. My observation is if you grew up in the smart phone era you may be more likely to see a smart phone as a constant companion - always on and within arm's reach. If you are a geezer like me then you may be more likely to see a smart phone as a convenience that can be turned off and stowed away until needed. Not a value judgement just an observation.

This might explain why I RARELY see as many backpackers as I used to see in the good old days before smartphone . . . captivation. I bet such phone addictions are keeping a huge group of people out of the woods. Which is both good and bad.

[Puddlefish]

I mentioned using a digital camera and radio etc. My rant concerns gaining Internet Access while out on a trip. I.e. bringing a smartphone. For me I don't want to be online ever when I'm out. You're mixing up the technologies. As mentioned, my pack is a very complex piece of technology---as are my boots and MSR stove and WM sleeping bag etc. But none of these items---while space age devices---allow me to surf on the internet.

What's the difference between a radio, and the internet. Just a matter of scale and convenience. I get the weather within seconds, you might have to wait a minute or two for the weather reporter to cycle to your area. I'm using technology for less time. You take your picture, wait til you get home, I assume upload the pictures to your computers, and then share your stories here. I take a picture, hit the share button, and include it in a text to my kids. It's not really all that different of a process.

You could theoretically listen to a baseball broadcast, I could theoretically watch a baseball game. It's the same amount of time, it's just what we choose to, or don't choose to do with it. (I don't actually watch movies or games while I'm on the trail.) I might use the phone as a mobile hotspot for my Kindle and download another book though. I don't see how that's any more or less moral/intrusive/better/worse than bringing a paperback.

[Zalman]

Funny, people talk all the time about how phone apps are so much "better" than paper maps, but for the life of my I can't figure out why they think so. The phone window is too tiny to provide any overall perspective. Maybe a phone is better for keeping you perfectly on a staunchly pre-determined route (I wouldn't know, I don't hike like that). For the sort of exploring I prefer, a paper map is far superior.

And of course any skill that goes unused atrophies -- I would hate to be someone who used nothing but phone apps for years (or worse, "never"!) and needs to find their way home when their phone breaks.

[Puddlefish]

Speaking to the generational thing. I went to an Olive Garden with some in laws. A pair of 80 year olds, a bunch of 55 year olds, and one Millennial. Grandparents, parents and kid.

Mom is on her phone the entire time creeping (stalking) on the kid's facebook feed, mom and grandma are trying to set the kid up on a date based on her facebook friends. Grampa is loudly calling out his opinion. Dad is sitting there kind of embarrassed by his families behavior. The kid is telling the old folks that it's rude to keep your face in the phone during dinner. The waitress was just trying to get people's attention so she could do her job and get paid. I just sat quietly and watched the train wreck.

So, let's not blame this one on the kids.

[Tipi Walter]

What's the difference between a radio, and the internet. Just a matter of scale and convenience. I get the weather within seconds, you might have to wait a minute or two for the weather reporter to cycle to your area. I'm using technology for less time. You take your picture, wait til you get home, I assume upload the pictures to your computers, and then share your stories here. I take a picture, hit the share button, and include it in a text to my kids. It's not really all that different of a process.

You could theoretically listen to a baseball broadcast, I could theoretically watch a baseball game. It's the same amount of time, it's just what we choose to, or don't choose to do with it. (I don't actually watch movies or games while I'm on the trail.) I might use the phone as a mobile hotspot for my Kindle and download another book though. I don't see how that's any more or less moral/intrusive/better/worse than bringing a paperback.

I think the difference is what Soilman says---

"I think many people have an addiction to smartphone use and it is not a generational issue. I have seen people of all ages glued to their phones.

I don't see how devices expand the outdoor experience for the user.

On the other hand I have read accounts of hikers spending extra time in town just so they can catch up with all their social networking. This seems to subtract from the outdoor experience. On numerous occasions people have carried out phone conversations at shelters, overlooks, etc. Just like any public place, to me that is just plain rude."

In this scenario, let's imagine someone is spending most of his waking hours glued to his phone---when not working etc. Then the guy goes out for a two week backpacking trip. Will he still stay glued to his phone?? If so, well, that's not my idea of a personally rewarding backpacking trip. And so I spurn their use.

Or even worse---imagine a whole generation of people never backpacking because they might get disconnected.

[Southeast]

I don’t have a good answer for what is the right amount of technology in the backcountry.

When I first took my teen daughters backpacking, I decided to let them use their phones as much as they wanted to. Personally I wanted the trip to be less about electronics and more about our time together. But I decided I would rather enjoy the time we had together regardless of how they experienced it. So they sent off snapchats and posted pics on Instagram and whatever. Their version of a real-time trip report. And we hiked and crossed some creek like 32 times and had an overall great time.

Fast forward a few weeks and I was pleased to see that one outcome of the phone usage was a lot of my daughters friends said wow that looked like such a fun trip and then went on trips like that with them in the future.

Fast forward a few years and both daughters love being in the outdoors. One is a backpacker that still enjoys a backpacking trip with her dad even though she is in college. The other isn’t much of a hiker but will live the dirtbag lifestyle of sleeping in her car while exploring then PNW. And yes both still like to send their “trip reports” via Snapchats and Instagram vs trail journals. And I sometimes wonder if they are addicting to their phones too much. But at least I know they love the outdoors and it has deep roots in both of them.

[Puddlefish]

Funny, people talk all the time about how phone apps are so much "better" than paper maps, but for the life of my I can't figure out why they think so. The phone window is too tiny to provide any overall perspective. Maybe a phone is better for keeping you perfectly on a staunchly pre-determined route (I wouldn't know, I don't hike like that). For the sort of exploring I prefer, a paper map is far superior.

And of course any skill that goes unused atrophies -- I would hate to be someone who used nothing but phone apps for years (or worse, "never"!) and needs to find their way home when their phone breaks.

I can navigate with a sextant, a compass, a reference book, and a paper map. I'd hate to try to navigate my way home if my map caught fire. blew off a cliff or into the water. I carry paper maps for a new day hike, but they're typically a sheet of printed paper and rarely have much detail. Phones just don't break any more often than maps blow overboard. It's an AT forum, no one is getting lost on the AT.

[Feral Bill]

Serious question... why are you on the internet off the trail and how is that different?
Seriously, you can't see the difference? DON'T HYOH, please.

[Southeast]

Seriously, you can't see the difference? DON'T HYOH, please.
Please expound... I’m not catching the point you are trying to make. It’s probably just me being dense.

[Tipi Walter]

Southeast---
You remind me of recently returning from a trip where I got to hike and camp with many high school kids pulling their 11 day wilderness trek with the Cranbrook School out of Michigan. The trip leaders want the experience to be a group bonding experience and also a group bonding with their outdoor environment.

SO---they have a strict rule of no phones and no texting or chatting with the outside world. They view this rule as helping with group cohesiveness and team building. The last thing they want are their kids live streaming and texting and surfing---and such activity breaking into the group.

That's my point---I'm out just like them (my Team is just me)---and I value staying out and value breaking the online connection.

Here's some happy Cranbrook kids on the Nubuster trail in NC---

44994

[Puddlefish]

I think the difference is what Soilman says---

"I think many people have an addiction to smartphone use and it is not a generational issue. I have seen people of all ages glued to their phones.

I don't see how devices expand the outdoor experience for the user.

On the other hand I have read accounts of hikers spending extra time in town just so they can catch up with all their social networking. This seems to subtract from the outdoor experience. On numerous occasions people have carried out phone conversations at shelters, overlooks, etc. Just like any public place, to me that is just plain rude."

In this scenario, let's imagine someone is spending most of his waking hours glued to his phone---when not working etc. Then the guy goes out for a two week backpacking trip. Will he still stay glued to his phone?? If so, well, that's not my idea of a personally rewarding backpacking trip. And so I spurn their use.

Or even worse---imagine a whole generation of people never backpacking because they might get disconnected.
Regarding your bolded emphasis. I'm not sure how your perception of it being an addiction is largely just your perception. Sure, people have addictions to a whole lot of things, but those addictions generally don't impact you.

How is a phone conversation, that excludes you, any worse than a standard conversation between two people, that doesn't include you? Do you think you should be able to join in on any conversation, are you frustrated because you can't eaves drop and know what they're talking about?

I personally hate talking on the phone myself, hate it. I hate texting even more. I rely on facial expressions and bodily clues. I don't have the finger coordination to text, so I come off sounding like a neanderthal because I'm too lazy to form coherent thoughts. I rarely use the phone feature of my phone.

I can certainly respect anyone who spurns phones/electronics/whatever for their own use... I can't see the point in getting upset or judging other people for their addictions, for their electronics, their habits that flat out don't affect me.

[Zalman]

I can navigate with a sextant, a compass, a reference book, and a paper map. I'd hate to try to navigate my way home if my map caught fire. blew off a cliff or into the water. I carry paper maps for a new day hike, but they're typically a sheet of printed paper and rarely have much detail. Phones just don't break any more often than maps blow overboard. It's an AT forum, no one is getting lost on the AT.

Phones can be dropped into ravines just as much as maps can blow away, that much is the same. Phones, being electronic, have an additional points of failure that maps don't have.

[Tipi Walter]

Regarding your bolded emphasis. I'm not sure how your perception of it being an addiction is largely just your perception. Sure, people have addictions to a whole lot of things, but those addictions generally don't impact you.

How is a phone conversation, that excludes you, any worse than a standard conversation between two people, that doesn't include you? Do you think you should be able to join in on any conversation, are you frustrated because you can't eaves drop and know what they're talking about?

I personally hate talking on the phone myself, hate it. I hate texting even more. I rely on facial expressions and bodily clues. I don't have the finger coordination to text, so I come off sounding like a neanderthal because I'm too lazy to form coherent thoughts. I rarely use the phone feature of my phone.

I can certainly respect anyone who spurns phones/electronics/whatever for their own use... I can't see the point in getting upset or judging other people for their addictions, for their electronics, their habits that flat out don't affect me.

Those highlighted quotes were from Soilman's Post. You may want to ask Soilman about it.

The OP asked our opinions of bringing handheld computers on our backpacking trips. My opinion is a big negatory---others have differing opinions.

[Puddlefish]

Those highlighted quotes were from Soilman's Post. You may want to ask Soilman about it.

The OP asked our opinions of bringing handheld computers on our backpacking trips. My opinion is a big negatory---others have differing opinions.

Ah, I missed that. I'm still figuring out this internet thing. Anyway, it's above 40 degree now, I'm going to go climb a hill. (Yeah, I am a giant cold wimp.) It's been fun chatting.

[Tipi Walter]

Ah, I missed that. I'm still figuring out this internet thing. Anyway, it's above 40 degree now, I'm going to go climb a hill. (Yeah, I am a giant cold wimp.) It's been fun chatting.

Yes, always fun.

[evyck da fleet]

I’ll start with I don’t believe in absolutes. Nothing is 100% better or worse.

I carried an iPhone on my thru to double as a camera. It stayed on airplane mode and I carried paper maps. Now when I got into town hopping on the internet to pay bills or let fam and buds I’m good is convenient and doesn’t take away from the non outdoor experience I’m having at the moment.

Mock smartphones if if you will but I can recreate my thru my looking at the photos and their time stamps to recall memories that I didn’t capture with a photo.

if someone else wants to hike the trail listening to books on tape instead of sitting on the couch, that’s fine with me,

[imscotty]

To the OP's Question - The question of are we 'Over-Conveniented' and 'Over-Safed' is one each person must answer for themselves. For me the answer is I would be if I carried a ton of electronic crap, but I don't.

Most I the times I do not bring a cell phone because I do not own one. No apps. no GPS, I use paper maps. It can be inconvenient at times, I do worry about the folks back home, but that is the path I choose.

No phone and no In-reach' I guess means less safety, but I'm not particularly worried about myself. If I happened on someone on the trail who needed help I would feel bad about not being able to make a call, so hopefully they brought their phone :)

I do not bring a watch or anything that plays music. I would rather listen to nature than tune it all out by wearing headphones.

I don't care what other people do, because I'm usually not camping anywhere near them anyways. I do get annoyed if I get to the top of a beautiful mountain pass and someone is playing music or blabbing on their cell phone. I have been know to wait for a couple hours if that is what it takes to get that view to myself, because damn it I earned it, and I'm in no hurry anyway.

Crazy has it sounds I have been know to carry a full blown laptop in my backpack because when I finally get to town I use it as my communication device, research device, and to process photos. I typically only use it in town, I started carrying in when I got tired waiting for computers at the public libraries.

The one electronic device I use and carry on the trail is a camera.

[Tipi Walter]

imscotty---Reasoned response.

[GoldenBear]

> the whole idea of a mountain hike is about getting out and enjoying nature, and separating oneself
> from the artificiality and cushy conveniences of urban/suburban society. Isn’t it?

No.


The purpose of a mountain hike is whatever you want it to be.

[Dogwood]

So what level of tech is appropriate? AT shelters are tech. A picnic table is tech. A TH sign is tech. Picking up a stick to use for walking is tech. Sleeping in a pile of leaves to stay warm is tech. Clothing is tech. Those white blazes and 30" wide tread and trail construction so many are fond are tech. That convenient fondly embraced nearby resupply and hitching a ride or walking a road is tech and the info that lets you know it's there is tech. Getting to the TH involves tech. A map is tech. A sextant, compass, or GPS is tech. That convenient bridge that crosses a creek or river is tech. All that shart that Tipi hauls in is tech including involved in the avocados he has flown in from somewhere else and how they're commercially grown. All the shart I take on a hike including the techniques and skills that allow UL and SUL kits are tech. Even cultures intimately close to Nature such as Native Americans, Inuits, Maya, Nasca, Olmec, Inca, Maori, Aztecs, Polynesians, Ancient Persians, Druids, etc all used tech. But it wasn't necessarily thought of tech at the time. Do you think Naturalist Muir didn't use and apply tech? Tech is not just the physical materialistic goods and service but the methods, skills and techniques. How can we have too much skills? What kept Native Americans flourishing in organized societies was tech, relying on their natural tech skills as much as their material technological advancements. Even Les Stroud, Tom Brown Jr, Cody Lundin, Bear Gryllis, Naked & Afraid reality "stars" are using tech.

[Dogwood]

If the real deal Les Stroud started playing that freakin harmonica and we could hear it would it technologically bother us?

[Dogwood]

Of course there're imposing fart ph mobile computer addicts just as I'm a paper map addict with 17K WB BS blog posts. Stripping tech down to the literally bare naked with only the skill set to get through just 24 hrs would be a very very rare individual. Try it...just once! THEN, come back and bitch about tech and what level is essential.

[Dogwood]

Dont mistake the huge tech support those N&A contestants have! That's TV shart.

Go watch Castaway. Try it. See what happens when an abscessed tooth needs removed and tech is an ice skate. No Vit I. No novocaine. No Jack D.

[Uriah]

Don’t devices like handheld computers (iPhones) and various “apps” compromise the back-to-nature experience?

I suppose when we take a good look at these long trails and today's mindset toward them (a quest to conquer or complete), the "back-to-nature" experience you speak of is but a small part of why so many are out there. I know it's precisely why I head out, and completing a trail is usually only a letdown. But I'm not sure if seeking solitude or time with nature is of much importance to others. Many claim that it is, but they seem more excited to proclaim that they "did" the AT (and/or other trails), rather than to continue doing. I know we're not talking about thru-hiking specifically here, but its very essence is goal-oriented, and the primary goal is to go the distance (and then to brag about it online!), not to connect or reconnect with nature.

I'm with imscotty in that I don't care what others do, so long as it doesn't infringe on my reasons. If it does, I try not to find fault. I simply move onward or elsewhere, looking to experience nature/wilderness/a human-free environment more intimately, on their terms. That may mean creating some sort of false divide between civilization and all our communication gadgetry (which I tend to view as interference in the process), with a minimalized approach to heading out. (No electronic stuff; tarp rather than tent; and so forth.) Ever since I was a child it's been a game for me to see what I could do without, and what I might thus develop within. Experience can teach us what we could do without, and whether we want to.

I love these conversations!

[greenpete]

No, I've not seen it go both ways. I've never been internet lectured that I'm enjoying nature the wrong way because I don't bring a smart phone. I've been mocked because I love music more than I love birdsong.

I sat for an hour on a trail up the side of Hawk Mountain watching ... (some sort of non hawk raptors, I forget what kind) circling and diving to hunt. I was listening to lovely music the entire time. I stopped for ten minutes and watched a bunny eating clover on the side of the trail once, it was not ten feet from me. I took a pic and sent it to my bunny loving daughter. A few weeks later, I sent a pic from the trail of a westbound brightly shelled turtle, to my turtle loving daughter.

One can just as easily miss things unfolding one's big paper map. One can sit an a canvas tent and read a paper novel, or writing in a paper trail diary and be anti social, just as easily as one can by sitting off to the side of a shelter with one's nose in a phone checking the box scores of your favorite sportsball team. You can sit quietly by the side of the trail and knit, if that's your thing.

The electronic device is not the determining factor on if you do, or if you don't enjoy the outdoors, it's not the determining factor on if you socialize with others on the trail. Why would you (the general you, not the specific you) need to worry if I'm enjoying my trail experience properly? It's my trail experience, and I'm minding my own business.

Puddlefish, I think it's great that you're able to enjoy raptors, turtles, and bunnies while listening to "lovely music" and taking many photos. Do you think maybe your experience would be even more enhanced by listening to a soft wind, and not having your visual attention diverted by focusing your camera, trying to get the best angle, checking the photo you just took, then maybe repeating the process if you don't like that photo? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious. No matter what you say, no matter how little or great, your nature experience has been compromised by fiddling with your technology. And this is just a camera. Throw in a smartphone, GPS, apps...whatever...and I hope you can see what I'm getting at. And you're a boomer (or close to it). Imagine how tempting these devices are to a millennial (like my son) who has been spoon-fed digital chocolate almost their entire life (though not by me). Then put them out on the trail.

I'm not "lecturing." I'm just stressing an observation of mine, and posing the question "Do you think hikers are going too far with the technology?" Others have said that hikers with boom boxes and cells have disturbed their peace on the trail. A legitimate beef. Someone's personal drone whizzed and buzzed over my head in Yosemite last year and f***ed up an otherwise luscious experience at Sunrise Lake. So this obsession with technology DOES affect other people.

It's like the argument against cigarette smoking in public places. Sure, if you want to clog your lungs with nicotine, go right ahead...Smoke Your Own Smoke (SYOS) out by the dumpster...but I'd like to eat my meal, or smell the honeysuckle without inhaling your second-hand tobacco smoke, thank you.

[greenpete]

[QUOTE=Uriah;2243070]...I'm not sure if seeking solitude or time with nature is of much importance to others. Many claim that it is, but they seem more excited to proclaim that they "did" the AT (and/or other trails), rather than to continue doing. I know we're not talking about thru-hiking specifically here, but its very essence is goal-oriented, and the primary goal is to go the distance (and then to brag about it online!), not to connect or reconnect with nature.

I'm with imscotty in that I don't care what others do, so long as it doesn't infringe on my reasons.QUOTE]

Good post, I agree. I think more hikers are about the "achievement," and broadcasting it to others, than about appreciating nature...unfortunately.

[stephanD]

I carry a flip-flop, and that's how i like it. As for the OP, start a poll.

[greenpete]

I carry a flip-flop, and that's how i like it.

Me too, Stephan. Keep it for emergency, but leave it off most of the time.

[Dogwood]

[QUOTE=greenpete;2243073]...great that you're able to enjoy raptors, turtles, and bunnies while listening to "lovely music" and taking many photos. Do you think maybe your experience would be even more enhanced by listening to a soft wind, and not having your visual attention diverted by focusing your camera, trying to get the best angle, checking the photo you just took, then maybe repeating the process if you don't like that photo?...
...your nature experience has been compromised by fiddling with your technology. And this is just a camera. Throw in a smartphone, GPS, apps...whatever...and I hope you can see what I'm getting at.
I'm not "lecturing." I'm just stressing an observation of mine, and posing the question "Do you think hikers are going too far with the technology?" Others have said that hikers with boom boxes and cells have disturbed their peace on the trail. A legitimate beef. Someone's personal drone whizzed and buzzed over my head in Yosemite last year and f***ed up an otherwise luscious experience at Sunrise Lake. So this obsession with technology DOES affect other people.[Quote]


The question was posed to someone else but I absolutely do understand what you're saying Greenpete. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfjkiTB1fHQ


Ben Stiller: When are you going to take it(picture)?

Sean Penn: Sometimes, I don't. If I like a moment, I mean me, personally, I don' t like to have the distraction of the camera. I just want to stay...in it. Yeah, right there. Right here.

Sean is there, in it, absorbed, connected in the moment. Did you feel it? I did. I felt like I was having the moment with him. I could see through his eyes, having the experience as he did. That's connecting in different aspects. RICH!

Consider the worth of those pics? Consider the effort in getting to that place in the world and into that situation to locate, clearly frame, the lighting, and get a front cover Nat Geo cover shot of a snow leopard as a professional photographer? Yet Sean didn't lose himself in technology. He even pulls back from the camera having the profound moment for himself. Look at his face. Hear his voice. That's being there in the moment ported on film!

[Southeast]

My experience has been shooting video on my phone has caused me to slow down and appreciate the smaller things. I feel zen getting a good shot - and not for others - just for my own record. Some prefer to record things in a journal. I prefer a visual record. Sitting down for 25 minutes to record a time lapse is peaceful to me. I understand to some, getting on the phone reminds them of their life off trail and all the weight that comes with it. I don’t feel that. If you do, then by all means disconnect. To me the phone is like a piece of paper - a tool. I don’t get anxiety or sucked into the intrawebs by looking up a GPS location or checking the weather.

Personally I try to focus on reducing electronics both on and off the trail. I won’t eliminate them totally in both places but I do hope to reduce it to only what is necessary. I used to love watching football but realized how much more time I could be spending with my kids by forgoing it. I feel like folks waste more time in front of a TV than playing on their phone in the wilderness. Americans spend huge amounts of time consuming media. From what I’ve seen in the wilderness, it’s a heck of a lot less than at home.

[Feral Bill]

Please expound... I’m not catching the point you are trying to make. It’s probably just me being dense. For most people, getting outdoors is a deliberate change. Staying "connected" is toxic to that aim. The behavior of an addict, really. Having people around you in the outdoors glued to their screens is like walking down a street with a bunch of carousing drunks. I have the good fortune to have no cell coverage at all where I backpack, solving the problem nicely.

[greenpete]

My experience has been shooting video on my phone has caused me to slow down and appreciate the smaller things. I feel zen getting a good shot - and not for others - just for my own record. Some prefer to record things in a journal. I prefer a visual record.

Personally I try to focus on reducing electronics both on and off the trail...I feel like folks waste more time in front of a TV than playing on their phone in the wilderness. Americans spend huge amounts of time consuming media. From what I’ve seen in the wilderness, it’s a heck of a lot less than at home.

I completely agree about reducing electronics both on and offtrail, and the insidiousness of TV. I grew up with the TV being practically a babysitter for me, and I regret so much time glued to that glass teat. And I feel smartphones are merely television - magnified - on a 24/7 basis. One can take this addictive device anywhere, at any time...and people do it, everywhere.

It's a matter of degree. People like yourself, who appreciate the aesthetics of nature and want to capture it on film, are one thing. But like I said to another commenter, most hikers are less about nature's aesthetics than their "achievement," then broadcasting their achievement to others. This "Me, Me, Me" tendency has exploded since the advent of social media. And it's on the trail almost as much as it's on the street.

[Puddlefish]

Puddlefish, I think it's great that you're able to enjoy raptors, turtles, and bunnies while listening to "lovely music" and taking many photos. Do you think maybe your experience would be even more enhanced by listening to a soft wind, and not having your visual attention diverted by focusing your camera, trying to get the best angle, checking the photo you just took, then maybe repeating the process if you don't like that photo? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious. No matter what you say, no matter how little or great, your nature experience has been compromised by fiddling with your technology. And this is just a camera. Throw in a smartphone, GPS, apps...whatever...and I hope you can see what I'm getting at. And you're a boomer (or close to it). Imagine how tempting these devices are to a millennial (like my son) who has been spoon-fed digital chocolate almost their entire life (though not by me). Then put them out on the trail.

I'm not "lecturing." I'm just stressing an observation of mine, and posing the question "Do you think hikers are going too far with the technology?" Others have said that hikers with boom boxes and cells have disturbed their peace on the trail. A legitimate beef. Someone's personal drone whizzed and buzzed over my head in Yosemite last year and f***ed up an otherwise luscious experience at Sunrise Lake. So this obsession with technology DOES affect other people.

It's like the argument against cigarette smoking in public places. Sure, if you want to clog your lungs with nicotine, go right ahead...Smoke Your Own Smoke (SYOM) out by the dumpster...but I'd like to eat my meal, or smell the honeysuckle without inhaling your second-hand tobacco smoke, thank you.

Do you imagine it's only one choice or another, or that I'm incapable of deciding for myself what enhances my own hike on any given day? I find it bizarre that anyone would presume to suggest I'm not enjoying nature properly, or that their nature experience is somehow more pure than mine for any reason at all.

I just climbed the local hill, it was windy, and I could hear wind, windy wind, creaking trees, some wind, my micro spikes crunching along, and more wind. I put in the ear phones, and listened to some Shannon and the Clams/Natalie Merchant/Big Thief, it perked me right up and I climbed forth with renewed enthusiasm, taking in the gorgeous views. On the way back down, I chatted with a couple of nice ladies as we slowly navigated the ice. That was what I needed today. Last fall, I hiked out to a beaver dam, and had a nice lunch, just listening to the river, that was what I needed that day.

I think far too many people get obsessed about cell phones because they're lonely, and people out on the trails... aren't paying attention to them, like they would prefer. It's their neediness for attention that's being disturbed. Those kids are talking to each other, and not to me, I blame cell phones! Back in the day, I could barge into anyone's conversation like a boss! They're spending time looking at a map on a screen, instead of a map on paper! Oh, noes! They're probably going to die!

I can only suggest, if you can't beat them, join them. Use the Guthook app, it's glorious. Look, the little dot that represents me, is moving towards the next water source! I'm halfway up the hill to the shelter, I think I'll take an hour for lunch here! After the first day the novelty wears off, and you'll rarely glance at it. It's entirely your decision how often you want to peek. You can still talk to people to find the next water source, or ask the goofy question "am I near the top yet!?"... again, entirely your choice. You don't have to be tethered to the phone constantly.

Sure electronics have the potential to cause disturbances, much like many many other things on the trail. You can't paint all electronics users with the same broad brush. You can't paint all shelter users/alcohol users/smokers/pet owners/old men/young people/etc. with the same broad brush. The technology doesn't mess up your experience unless you let it, same as all the other human behavior you will encounter.

In 600 miles on the AT, I heard someone's music exactly once. A group of young folk were at a hostel, gathered around a phone, and going through the Hip Hop top 100, and testing their (poor) voices and memories of lyrics and just generally having a blast. I chimed in with the Humpty Dance, the only hip hop song I know, and was pleased it was on their list. It's now a fond memory and part of my AT experience.

No electronics on the trail has ever annoyed me. Yeah, I've been briefly flustered by someone talking on a phone, who I thought was talking to me, but didn't dwell on it, or suggest that her day was ruined by her lack of communion with nature, feeling bad for her, or mocking her for doing her hike wrong. Wait, I take that back, I've been annoyed by a bright white flashlight/headlamp shined on my tent a few times, so let's start a thread about light users aren't appreciating the beauty of the night sky properly?

Also, you don't have to focus phone cameras. I literally can give my phone a quick twist, which turns on the camera function without need to go through menus, or even turn it on first. Then touch the screen. Even I can do it, it's brainless.

[stephanD]

When i'm hiking, i'm as low tech as possible; a flip flop phone and a charger. But i like to watch u-tube hiking videos/vlogs or whatever they call them these days. for example, i like to watch 'Second Chance' the current undisputed WB star, among a few others. so i guess there's some hypocrisy here.:rolleyes: :confused: :-?

[Puddlefish]

When i'm hiking, i'm as low tech as possible; a flip flop phone and a charger. But i like to watch u-tube hiking videos/vlogs or whatever they call them these days. for example, i like to watch 'Second Chance' the current undisputed WB star, among a few others. so i guess there's some hypocrisy here.:rolleyes: :confused: :-?

I nearly always get motion sickness watching trail videos. :(

[soilman]

Several years ago there was a guy who made a series of Youtube videos on how to thru hike the AT. In one he said you didn't need a first aid kit if you carried a phone because if something major happened you could call for help. Or just wait for some clueless hiker to come by and use their first aid kit.

[greenpete]

Do you imagine it's only one choice or another, or that I'm incapable of deciding for myself what enhances my own hike on any given day? I find it bizarre that anyone would presume to suggest I'm not enjoying nature properly, or that their nature experience is somehow more pure than mine for any reason at all.

I never said you are not enjoying nature "properly," I'm suggesting your enjoyment MIGHT BE compromised by your fiddling with technology. That's a speculation, but I think a legitimate one. If you don't think your experience is compromised, not much else I can say.

I just climbed the local hill, it was windy, and I could hear wind, windy wind, creaking trees, some wind, my micro spikes crunching along, and more wind. I put in the ear phones, and listened to some Shannon and the Clams/Natalie Merchant/Big Thief, it perked me right up and I climbed forth with renewed enthusiasm, taking in the gorgeous views. On the way back down, I chatted with a couple of nice ladies as we slowly navigated the ice. That was what I needed today. Last fall, I hiked out to a beaver dam, and had a nice lunch, just listening to the river, that was what I needed that day.

I would say that earbuds are fairly tame "devices," and they weren't what I was thinking with my original post. I stand by my claim that technology on the trail is getting out of hand.

I think far too many people get obsessed about cell phones because they're lonely, and people out on the trails... aren't paying attention to them, like they would prefer. It's their neediness for attention that's being disturbed. Those kids are talking to each other, and not to me, I blame cell phones! Back in the day, I could barge into anyone's conversation like a boss! They're spending time looking at a map on a screen, instead of a map on paper! Oh, noes! They're probably going to die!

This is your own "presuming to suggest" moment. It doesn't apply to me, since I enjoy solitude, but it's an interesting psychological theory nonetheless. There's also the theory that people haul their electronics on trail as a safety blanket, a connection to the "civilized world."

I can only suggest, if you can't beat them, join them. Use the Guthook app, it's glorious. Look, the little dot that represents me, is moving towards the next water source! I'm halfway up the hill to the shelter, I think I'll take an hour for lunch here! After the first day the novelty wears off, and you'll rarely glance at it. It's entirely your decision how often you want to peek. You can still talk to people to find the next water source, or ask the goofy question "am I near the top yet!?"... again, entirely your choice. You don't have to be tethered to the phone constantly.

I'm not a fan of the "if you can't beat them, join them" logic. I'm a vomiter, not a swallower. If something's shoved down my throat (like the Ohio State Buckeyes, where I live), I vomit, I don't swallow. Hey, everyone's different!

Sure electronics have the potential to cause disturbances, much like many many other things on the trail. You can't paint all electronics users with the same broad brush. You can't paint all shelter users/alcohol users/smokers/pet owners/old men/young people/etc. with the same broad brush. The technology doesn't mess up your experience unless you let it, same as all the other human behavior you will encounter.

I'm not painting anyone with a brush. I'm just suggesting that technology on the trail is getting out of hand. You may not be "guilty" of overdoing the techie stuff, yourself, as an individual. But add up all the earbudders, and throw in the smartphoners, GPSers, laptoppers, droners, and whatever else, and that's a lot of electronics out there in the mountains.

In 600 miles on the AT, I heard someone's music exactly once. A group of young folk were at a hostel, gathered around a phone, and going through the Hip Hop top 100, and testing their (poor) voices and memories of lyrics and just generally having a blast. I chimed in with the Humpty Dance, the only hip hop song I know, and was pleased it was on their list. It's now a fond memory and part of my AT experience.

Respectfully, I don't think this cute anecdote of yours disproves my assertion that there's too much technology on the trail.

No electronics on the trail has ever annoyed me. Yeah, I've been briefly flustered by someone talking on a phone, who I thought was talking to me, but didn't dwell on it, or suggest that her day was ruined by her lack of communion with nature, feeling bad for her, or mocking her for doing her hike wrong. Wait, I take that back, I've been annoyed by a bright white flashlight/headlamp shined on my tent a few times, so let's start a thread about light users aren't appreciating the beauty of the night sky properly?

Electronics on the trail may not annoy you. To that "justification," I would say many people are not annoyed by the smell of 2,4-D lawn chemical in the spring, as well.

Also, you don't have to focus phone cameras. I literally can give my phone a quick twist, which turns on the camera function without need to go through menus, or even turn it on first. Then touch the screen. Even I can do it, it's brainless.

Do you have to remove your camera from your pocket? Do you have to twist it? Do you have to turn it on? Touch the screen? Check the result? Repeat above? You may be capturing the artifact, but are you losing the MOMENT?? (see Dogwood's post above)

[Uriah]

Do you have to remove your camera from your pocket? Do you have to twist it? Do you have to turn it on? Touch the screen? Check the result? Repeat above? You may be capturing the artifact, but are you losing the MOMENT?? (see Dogwood's post above)

A fair enough posit. But it isn't always necessarily the case. As someone above alluded, a camera could in fact, submerge you into the moment that much more. Great photographers have great focus. They see things because they are looking for them.

[Puddlefish]

Do you have to remove your camera from your pocket? Do you have to twist it? Do you have to turn it on? Touch the screen? Check the result? Repeat above? You may be capturing the artifact, but are you losing the MOMENT?? (see Dogwood's post above)
Yes, it was outstandingly difficult to remove the phone from my hip belt. The twisting motion (think revving a motorcycle throttle) turns it on, and opens the camera app. Touching the screen, also brutal, but I just managed it. I didn't bother to see how it came out at the moment. When I was in my tent, I forwarded the picture as a text to family.

No, I'm not losing the moment. I lost all of five seconds, and was able to share the moment with others, and with my future self. I have a terrible memory. I couldn't tell you even in what state, or in what month I saw the bunny. I had an additional 9 minutes and 55 seconds to watch the cute little bunny nibble at clover. Would it have been acceptable to you if I had taken out a piece of bark, and a bit of charcoal and sketched the bunny? Would that have been acceptable to you?

Seriously, a crappy Sean Penn movie as your inspirational source? Why would you imagine that I'd be moved by a scripted and directed line in a movie? You can't get more technological than that. Sean Penn doesn't move me. I don't even like movies, I find them super fake. I have poor memory, I hike for different reasons than you, I'm not you. I will never be you, it's weirdly authoritarian for you to suggest to me that it's better for me, to forego technology to better get in the moment. Let people manage their moments they way they see fit... or don't.

[Dogwood]

I think far too many people get obsessed about cell phones because they're lonely, and people out on the trails... aren't paying attention to them, like they would prefer. It's their neediness for attention that's being disturbed.

The comedian Sebastian Maniscalco calls taking a Selfie "taking a LONELY." sebastian maniscalco taking a lonely (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sebastian+maniscalco+taking+a+lonely&view=detail&mid=BDF07B694417171B8F09BDF07B694417171B8F09&FORM=VIRE)

[gpburdelljr]

I use my iPhone to identify plants and birds while hiking, so it enhances my experience.

[Hikingjim]

I guess at 37 I'm in the generation that appreciates both methods.
Airplane mode almost all the time, I just use it for things that add to my experience.

It's a lot to do with motivation and personality as well. A lot of people out there are a different hiker breed now. They are seeking MORE solitude than at home in many cases, but not necessarily intense solitude. Ie: they want to video and post/comment on a lot of stuff daily, maybe socialize a bit more, etc.
Perfectly fine digital approach IMO, as long as they don't annoy me with excessive noise, etc, which is rare in this circumstance

[Dogwood]

There are two other lines I left out in that Secret Life of Walter Mitty Stiller Penn scene that provide better context. After Penn says his first line Stiller inquisitively asks "Stay in it?" Stiller's character(Walter Mitty) does not comprehend what Penn means by "stay in it." Then Penn says, "there, it's gone(the connection, the moment where he's IN IT); it's gone." That's the moment he's referring not just the Ghost Cat ghosting away. The Ghost Cat moving away as does a ghost, a vapor, is a metaphor for LIFE and ghosting through LIFE as Walter Mitty was. Life is but a moment on this planet and many coast - ghost - through it disconnected, separate, rigidly alone, here but not fully here, vacuous, not truly consciously aware of being "connected." The moment, being in it is, is a metaphor for engaging profoundly in life not coasting through it like a fart in the wind. That's what the movie is about - Walter Mitty being taught to live LIFE, to be in it with all his being rather than touching it, rather than simply passing through it squandering life, taking these precious moments, these precious lives, for granted.


It's a good lesson.


Muir was referring to the same principle.


“We are now in the mountains and they are in us, kindling enthusiasm, making every nerve quiver, filling every pore and cell of us.” ― John Muir

Most people are on the world, not in it-- having no conscious sympathy or relationship to anything about them-- undiffused seporate, and rigidly alone like marbles of polished stone, touching but seporate.

[4eyedbuzzard]

If the real deal Les Stroud started playing that freakin harmonica and we could hear it would it technologically bother us?Only as long as it would take us to silence him with our Bear Grylls knife.

[Rain Man]

...the whole idea of a mountain hike is about getting out and enjoying nature, and separating oneself from the artificiality and cushy conveniences of urban/suburban society....

This is what,-- in debate circles,-- is called "setting up a straw man." Not really for you to say what "the whole idea" of backpacking is, is it?

BTW, I did not take time to read all the pages of posts, so apologies if I'm repeating someone.

My dear wife lets me go backpacking just about any time I want, where I want, for as long as I want. I am happy to and want to check in with her from time to time. Apologies to all whom my use of electronic technology offends.

[Dogwood]

Only as long as it would take us to silence him with our Bear Grylls knife.
Which one. He has several Gerber Bear Gryllis branded knives, a multi tool knife(Leatherman like), take off SAS survival take off Bowie like, Swiss Army Grandfather multi tool type, Scout,...

Bear doesn't need no stinkin' knife. He'd stab Les with a stick IF Les din't catch him first in a stake lined pit snare and gag him with the harmonica.

[MuddyWaters]

Several years ago there was a guy who made a series of Youtube videos on how to thru hike the AT. In one he said you didn't need a first aid kit if you carried a phone because if something major happened you could call for help. Or just wait for some clueless hiker to come by and use their first aid kit.
He was right.
First aid kits arent for anything major
They are for boo-boos

But you stand a good chance of dieing from anything major, you are likely many hrs from help.

The whole premise of wilderness first aid for serious things ....is stabilize patient ( stop bleeding, make warm, comfortable, ) and get help . Much of it is recognizing symptoms of things to start with, so you can properly convey information to rescuers.

[Marta]

I like smartphones, although I'm in the usually-in-airplane-mode camp. As a Boomer, I spent more than half of my life without a cell phone, so I'm perfectly aware of how to function without it. I find the demands of constant connectivity to be annoying, and don't agree to to be instantly available at all times to assorted robocallers, or to my friends and family.

What I like: Camera from which it is completely simple to send pictures to wherever and whomever you want to send them to; text messaging to family, and to friends along the way whom I'm planning to visit; and to make the occasional phone call to reserve a room, or whatever. And this year I'm playing with the Guthook app, which I like. I've been hiking bits of the AZT this spring. When I get into an area with a lot of unmarked social trails, the app helps me pick out the correct fork to take. Saves a lot of backtracking.

Since the phone is usually easy to get at (so I can use it as a camera), I also use it to make typed or voice memo notes to look at later.

Can play music, and store reading material, both printed and audio, although personally I prefer to save the battery by not using it for those purposes when backpacking. Great flashlight, although again I prefer to save the battery, and find the flashlight so bright that it kills night vision for quite a while.

It can be helpful in an emergency, although I am as prudent as I humanly can be, and don't take chances that I expect other people to rescue me from the consequences of.

I have seen a lot of people state their intention to vblog their hikes this year. I wonder if they have any idea how demanding that will be? And how difficult it is to keep all that equipment dry and charged up? Seems like a headache to me. There's a reason Jester carries a heavy pack, and spends many months after a long hike editing the material into an entertaining movie.

[soilman]

He was right.
First aid kits arent for anything major
They are for boo-boos

I disagree. A smartphone won't stop a cut from bleeding or a blister from becoming infected. Things that are a real possibility if you are planning to hike 2100 miles. I ran into a kid in PA who was hiking in sandals. He gashed his toe on the rocks and was bleeding pretty good. He had no first aid, not even any hand sanitizer. It is irresponsible for you to rely on others for your well being.

[Furlough]

This might explain why I RARELY see as many backpackers as I used to see in the good old days before smartphone . . . captivation.
Maybe there's an App for that (backpacking virtually on your phone app, rather than actually getting real trail time)

[chknfngrs]

I am fully addicted to my smart phone and only in the last year have made strides to break up with it. Hiking is one of those areas I will not use my phone unless I need it. My challenge forthcoming is to try to leave it alone. Placed in a ziplock and at the bottom of my bag is where it should be.

To the OP suggestion, I don’t think tech is a bad thing per se but like Kenny Rogers, you got to know when hold em

[greenpete]

I’m pleasantly surprised at all the feedback for this forum topic. Just like politics and religion,people have passionate feelings (including me). Someone suggested taking a poll. That might be a good idea. I’m not a regular here, but I’ll try to whip something up.

Till then, here’s a thought: My loquacious and intelligent friend, Puddlefish, posited the theory that hikers who are averse to rampant electronics on the trail might feel snubbed because they’re being ignored by those who carry “gadgets.” I find this theory pretty daft, myself (sorry, Puddle…by the way, I wasn’t the one whose inspiration source is a Sean Penn movie and, again, I don't think my raising this topic is being "authoritarian"...read my original post). But how about this theory:

Hikers bring their gadgets on trail because they’re a safety blanket. They provide a connection to home and civilization, and not just a literal connection, but a figurative one. Their toys are like Linus’s blanket. They remind them of their being civilized creatures who have “conquered” the wilds, which can often be threatening. A smartphone is not just a rescue device in an emergency situation, but it’s also a piece of the modern world that says “Look at the amazing thing that man has accomplished. This is on a scale with what God (god, Allah, Yahweh, whatever) has accomplished with these mountains, trees, flowers, and bears.” I DON'T mean people think this consciously, but perhaps subconsciously.

Also: those most offended by people (like me) who suggest there's too much technology on the trail, secretly feel guilty for having to rely on their "toys." I won't mention any names. :)

More controversy, maybe, but I think it’s worth considering.

[Slumgum]

Over a decade ago I traveled to the midwest to help my brother put a new roof on his daughter's house. Every time I turned around he would be up at the peak stroking and poking his phone. After half a day of this I finally said, "Put the %$#@ thing down or get off the roof." That was my first taste of how addictive they can be. I see it on the trail, too. Shelters are the worst; everyone stoking and poking; more in tune with their devices than fellow hikers.
I don't own one. I have an addictive personality. They are not for me.

[John B]

I’m pleasantly surprised at all the feedback for this forum topic. ...
Also: those most offended by people (like me) who suggest there's too much technology on the trail, secretly feel guilty for having to rely on their "toys." I won't mention any names. :)
More controversy, maybe, but I think it’s worth considering.

I agree with greenpete, so no need to quote the entire thing.

My tech story is that I started section hiking the AT before cellphones were common, then I got one and carried it with me along with my camera, then later I ditched the camera, lastly I ditched the cellphone. Thankfully I'm not asked to or required to "check in" with anyone (I always think of Meriwether Lewis's letter to his mom before embarking on his journey, the last lines something to the effect of "I'll see you in a couple of years. Don't worry about me."). I'm much happier now without the gadgets -- I get enough of that stuff at home/work.

That's my .02

[Traveler]

The definition of what a hike should or should not include or how it should be done is an individual one.

What I have gotten out of the four pages of comments is, if you don't like to carry a smart phone or other noise generating technology with you, don't. If you do, keep it unobtrusive so as not to disturb anyone nearby.

[CalebJ]

The definition of what a hike should or should not include or how it should be done is an individual one.

What I have gotten out of the four pages of comments is, if you don't like to carry a smart phone or other noise generating technology with you, don't. If you do, keep it unobtrusive so as not to disturb anyone nearby.
Well said. In both cases it's an individual election, and should be handled as such.

[TNhiker]

The definition of what a hike should or should not include or how it should be done is an individual one.




see post number 2....

[Puddlefish]

I’m pleasantly surprised at all the feedback for this forum topic. Just like politics and religion,people have passionate feelings (including me). Someone suggested taking a poll. That might be a good idea. I’m not a regular here, but I’ll try to whip something up.

Till then, here’s a thought: My loquacious and intelligent friend, Puddlefish, posited the theory that hikers who are averse to rampant electronics on the trail might feel snubbed because they’re being ignored by those who carry “gadgets.” I find this theory pretty daft, myself (sorry, Puddle…by the way, I wasn’t the one whose inspiration source is a Sean Penn movie and, again, I don't think my raising this topic is being "authoritarian"...read my original post). But how about this theory:

Hikers bring their gadgets on trail because they’re a safety blanket. They provide a connection to home and civilization, and not just a literal connection, but a figurative one. Their toys are like Linus’s blanket. They remind them of their being civilized creatures who have “conquered” the wilds, which can often be threatening. A smartphone is not just a rescue device in an emergency situation, but it’s also a piece of the modern world that says “Look at the amazing thing that man has accomplished. This is on a scale with what God (god, Allah, Yahweh, whatever) has accomplished with these mountains, trees, flowers, and bears.” I DON'T mean people think this consciously, but perhaps subconsciously.

Also: those most offended by people (like me) who suggest there's too much technology on the trail, secretly feel guilty for having to rely on their "toys." I won't mention any names. :)

More controversy, maybe, but I think it’s worth considering.
I think you're just being unintentionally insulting, and claiming that something that you don't understand and agree with therefore must be a bad thing, as far as you're concerned. You're then making up reasons why they're a bad thing. Safety? No, that one's been debunked too many times. Let's go with "those with technology can't enjoy nature," yeah, that's the ticket. You're telling people, what's in their heads. Think about that. You claim I wasn't in the moment, seriously? That's just a weak argument. Should I have ignored the two women I chatted with as well? Sorry maam, can't talk to you right now, I'm in the moment with nature, and the slightest distraction is taking me out of the moment with nature! You're just grasping at straws. Technology as being rude and distracting to other people on the trail. I'm just not buying that it's a statistically significant problem that's unique to technology.

I get it, when cell phones first came out 30ish years ago, they were a joke, 20 years ago, I myself was highly skeptical about cell phones and their effect on society. I didn't get a smart phone until three years ago, because I had absolutely no need of one. I thought who could possibly "need" to be so impatient that they couldn't wait to get home to browse the net? Strangely enough, I was gifted my very first cell phone to start with my AT thru hike attempt in 2016. My daughter gave me a beat up old iphone that barely had the processing power to turn itself on, barely enough battery power to run the Guthook app for navigation, twice a day. I also carried a camera, an extra two memory chips for the camera, a compass, a pound of paper maps, a Kindle, and a sixth of the AWOL guidebook. I walked about a month with that set up. I had to interrupt my hike, and get off the trail to mail a memory chip full of pictures to a daughter, who had to drive to my house, download that chip to my PC, drive back home, and mail that empty chip back to a post office ahead of me, so I could pick it up. Hours of my time, hours of my families time, just to get pictures... (which I require because of my crappy memory.) I stopped in Franklin, NC (I think) and bought a brand new phone, Guthook performed flawlessly, the camera was better than my phone, I had no need of paper maps, I sent pounds of weight home, I no longer had to leave the trail to send/store my pictures. It was convenient to label those pictures so I'd remember where they were taken. I learned that "My assumptions about cell phone users being impatient was dead wrong." The cell phone is just a tool, it can be used safely, and different applications can be used by different people, for different reasons and different times." The ones who use them unsafely, are a self correcting problem and die on the roadways. We don't have to worry about that portion of the population on the trail. (I also had a neighbor die in her car when she was putting on makeup, and drove into a bus, so we can't blame all our distraction problems on technology.)

I live in a cottage in the woods, I can open a window and hear nature for half the year, at the end of my road are a network of trails, I live ten minutes from a legitimate mountain, within thirty minutes of another, and within an hour of many more. Every week, I climb a mountain, every day, I at least hit my local trails. Bringing my phone with me, or forgetting to charge it and leaving it at home isn't a big consideration to me. I'm equally happy with it or without it. Sometimes it makes a nice change to do things a little differently. There is not only one way to enjoy hiking for me.

As for the lonely old man comment. I'm a volunteer driver for the elderly. A see a whole lot of bitter lonely old people, they're sad because the world is passing them by, they don't understand the technology, they losing the power and control that they used to enjoy, their bodies are failing them, their kids are busy with their own lives. Like every generation before them who's gotten old, rather than accepting their situation and maybe doing something constructive about it they blame what they don't understand.

So, you can learn to roll with the punches, to embrace the technology, or you can whine about it. Different, does not equate to worse. I'm not suggesting that you specifically are lonely, and bitter, but you just might be heading down that road. It's been a few decades now, it's time to adapt. There's no great percentage of phone addicts out there as you seem to think, skateboarding is not a crime, music today is just as vibrant and inventive as it was when you were young. Or, you can keep railing against the injustice of a world that you don't understand because you're proudly claiming "not to be a swallower." That's just another term for being pointlessly inflexible. There's more to the world than what your daddy taught you. You need to think for yourself and see how the world is actually functioning these days. There's a whole lot of positive love out there in the world.

As for the people secretly feeling guilty, that's just wishing on your part. Yeah, and you can end that story with "then an eagle few out on of the sky and landed on my shoulder, crying a single tear." A safety blanket? As if cell phone users are infants refusing to let go of their blankies? There's nothing wrong with safety devices.

Are you suggesting that you walk naked into the woods, and put a stick in the ground to check the angle of the sun to aid with direction, based on the changing seasons, that you take no safety precautions, that you build your own shelters, hunt your own game with tools that you've built, and all that? Because I don't believe that you do, I think you use 98% of the exact same gear and safety devices that the rest of us do, and you're being pointlessly obstinate about the other 2%.

The cell phone user who walked into the fountain at the mall, that was hilarious. I laughed too! But that's not how people use their tech on the trail.

Buy a cheap $100 smart phone, like a 4th generation moto X, get a month to month service plan with minimal data, I'd recommend Verizon, which has great coverage along the trail. Use the Google Maps app for every day navigation, buy the Guthook app, get out on the trail. Use the phone as much or as little as you want. Use the phone, once a day, or or once a week, but use it. Ditch your home phone plan when you're comfortable, you'll likely save money overall. Come back in a year and join in this conversation as an informed individual, because currently, you aren't making much sense.

Hey, maybe I'm entirely wrong about you. I'm not trying to be mean, I can only go by what you're written yourself here in this thread, and making assumptions based on what you've written. Pining for the golden days that were never quite all that golden isn't going to help you enjoy the trail more. The only think that's going to help you enjoy the trail is to get out onto the trail with a positive attitude.

It's a gorgeous day outside, I'm going to go climb mount Kearsage. Yeah, I'll be driving my motorized horseless carriage to get over there, instead of making the 2.5 hour road walk each way. Wearing high tech clothing, microspikes, poles and yeah, even bringing my phone, with which I'll use as a safety device to text my daughter when I arrive at the specific trailhead, what trail I'm hiking and when I can be expected back. I may or may not listen to music during all or part of the hike. So, respond if you like, I'll read it eventually, because I enjoy debating on the internet probably a bit more than is good for my own mental health.

Edit: Grammar, typos, general suckiness at typing. There are probably more mistakes, correct them in your head.

[greenmtnboy]

The last two $30 flip phones I bought from Walmart are just junk; the one I got last year, a ZTE had poor reception. Then I got an Alcatel, the screen cracked within a couple weeks of light handling and has few features with outdated characteristics. I filed a complaint on these with the state consumer agency and looks like Walmart wants to address the issue.

I find all these devices to be pretty dehumanizing and ultimately alienating, not doing what people in the social networking world said they would do in terms of improving social networks. The 20 years or so that the internet has been around has been a recipe for passivity at least in my experience. I have a friend who uses a smart phone like a command and control device.

[greenpete]

The definition of what a hike should or should not include or how it should be done is an individual one.

What I have gotten out of the four pages of comments is, if you don't like to carry a smart phone or other noise generating technology with you, don't. If you do, keep it unobtrusive so as not to disturb anyone nearby.

I'll buy this, Traveler. The "too much technology" heading is subjective. One hiker might think an analog camera is too much technology. Another might draw the line at (God help us) personal drones in the wilds. I carry a flip-phone w/built-in camera, and that's my line. So...if you're in a shelter with others, be polite and keep the music off (unless everyone wants to hear LL Cool J), or keep your smartphone use to a minimum. I think the real problem these days is not so much the existence of digital electronics, but the lack of restraint and etiquette by users.

[CalebJ]

I'll buy this, Traveler. The "too much technology" heading is subjective. One hiker might think an analog camera is too much technology. Another might draw the line at (God help us) personal drones in the wilds. I carry a flip-phone w/built-in camera, and that's my line. So...if you're in a shelter with others, be polite and keep the music off (unless everyone wants to hear LL Cool J), or keep your smartphone use to a minimum. I think the real problem these days is not so much the existence of digital electronics, but the lack of restraint and etiquette by users.
Yes, this. Also those who think that -their- preference to avoid technology use is something they should see as a weakness in others when it isn't a mutual emotion.

[greenpete]

I think your just being unintentionally insulting... So, respond if you like....

OK, I'll respond. I don't agree with most of what you say.

Enjoy your mountain climb.

[Tipi Walter]

I am fully addicted to my smart phone and only in the last year have made strides to break up with it. Hiking is one of those areas I will not use my phone unless I need it. My challenge forthcoming is to try to leave it alone. Placed in a ziplock and at the bottom of my bag is where it should be.

To the OP suggestion, I don’t think tech is a bad thing per se but like Kenny Rogers, you got to know when hold em

Good post and in agreement. "Fully addicted" about says it all. I'm overly attached to my online trip blogs and spend too much time at home on the computer. THEREFORE to fight this craziness I don't want any online snooping to happen on my backpacking trips ERGO no smartphone.


Over a decade ago I traveled to the midwest to help my brother put a new roof on his daughter's house. Every time I turned around he would be up at the peak stroking and poking his phone. After half a day of this I finally said, "Put the %$#@ thing down or get off the roof." That was my first taste of how addictive they can be. I see it on the trail, too. Shelters are the worst; everyone stoking and poking; more in tune with their devices than fellow hikers.
I don't own one. I have an addictive personality. They are not for me.

More agreement. That would be a good hiking Mantra: "Put the %$#@ thing down or get off the Trail!!" I like how this might be applied.


I agree with greenpete, so no need to quote the entire thing.

My tech story is that I started section hiking the AT before cellphones were common, then I got one and carried it with me along with my camera, then later I ditched the camera, lastly I ditched the cellphone. Thankfully I'm not asked to or required to "check in" with anyone (I always think of Meriwether Lewis's letter to his mom before embarking on his journey, the last lines something to the effect of "I'll see you in a couple of years. Don't worry about me."). I'm much happier now without the gadgets -- I get enough of that stuff at home/work.

That's my .02

Good quote: "I'm much happier now without the gadgets---I get enough of that stuff at home/work". So very true.

[Hikingjim]

Good post and in agreement. "Fully addicted" about says it all. I'm overly attached to my online trip blogs and spend too much time at home on the computer. THEREFORE to fight this craziness I don't want any online snooping to happen on my backpacking trips ERGO no smartphone.



Yes, I thoroughly enjoy time away and being incommunicado. Since I live near the border and have to pay to use my phone in the US, it's always been a fantastic reason to be in airplane mode for entire trips, other than a couple times at a hotel, strategic Mcds wifi, etc
Many of the hikes I do north of me have no service as well, which I find oddly liberating, but the phone is still useful for me to bring for GPS, camera, kindle app, etc

[Dogwood]

The definition of what a hike should or should not include or how it should be done is an individual one.


To what extent does that apply?


This is the type of "I'm only responsible to myself" attitude that can be a growing problem...because in the real world, with imperfect fallible human behavior, the awareness qualifier "keep it unobtrusive so as not to disturb anyone nearby" can be lacking. It's in evidence every time when discussing behavioral responsibility beyond the end of one's nose on WB. It's why LNT or quota or regulations discussions can get so heated. It's why we need MODS to control something that one might expect to be as simple as what to discretionary post on a Female Forum!



What if an individual's definition of what a hike should be, what it should include, or how it should be done is not pulling or displaying a required permit as part of regs, playing music at 9 p.m. at an AT shelter with six others sleeping on Fri night because it's 'early' on a typical party night - time to dance on the picnic tables with your other two party buddies - backpacking and wilderness drunkenness and other drugs are a natural, being in the habit of arriving at an AT shelter after 9 p.m. because you're going fast and light doing 30+ miles/day making up for a late start - any food anyone, I'm low on food?, hiking naked as a "minimalist- be free" male dangling down the trail meeting up with a Girl Scout Troop or free balling wearing a kilt not using discretion when sitting or doing cartwheels, taking a dump in or right next to the trail or in CS's, hiking with your dog off leash with little command of your "emotional support" pet or saying your Rottweilers are loving needed "service" animals because NO Dogs on trail doesn't apply to you, leaving food tins in fire rings, discarding broken or unwanted garbage and gear under a shelter, cutting switchbacks, trees are for firewood - that's why I bring a hatchet, to chop down trees, stalking women on trail...

Seen all those situations, some many times.


We bring our off trail habits and addictions - YES addictions - to the trail. What if off trail you're addicted to digital or fart ph(mobile computer) usage, being a habitual racist, sexist, bigot, slob,...?



What I have gotten out of the four pages of comments is, if you don't like to carry a smart phone or other noise generating technology with you, don't. If you do, keep it unobtrusive so as not to disturb anyone nearby.


It's very easy to say that. In practice people don't do what is said or what they know they should do, especially when being controlled by habits and addictions - such as electronic usage can be - an addiction where one is likely to disregard their impacts on others.

Modern high income per capita cultures such as the U.S. ignore cultural tendencies and addictions even promoting them for economic, social, or other reasons. We bring these tendencies and addictions to the trail... and we expect and often demand others to kowtow to them - tech and digital applications included.

[Dogwood]

Indeed, good post Tipi.

[Dogwood]

I am fully addicted to my smart phone and only in the last year have made strides to break up with it. Hiking is one of those areas I will not use my phone unless I need it. My challenge forthcoming is to try to leave it alone. Placed in a ziplock and at the bottom of my bag is where it should be.

To the OP suggestion, I don’t think tech is a bad thing per se but like Kenny Rogers, you got to know when hold em
You're aware of it and making behavioral changes that impact not only yourself but others.

Few will admit their addictions and even less are aware of the depth of their addiction's impacts...and less actually change their behavior.

Awareness can be good!:cool:

[greenpete]

Few will admit their addictions and even less are aware of the depth of their addiction's impacts...and less actually change their behavior.


Even my wife becomes very defensive when I tell her she shouldn't be spending so much time on F-Book. I can understand how certain hikers are sensitive to implications that they may be overdoing the technology.

I'm not sure it's an "addiction," but I'm convinced there's an over-reliance on technology. Yeah, it's less obvious in the mountains than in the local park, or at a restaurant. My God, the bowed heads and glazed eyes that I witness. But I'm convinced those bowed heads and glazed (or at least, diverted) eyes are becoming more and more prevalent on the trails. I'm not being accusatory. I'm just giving my opinion based on what I've observed.

[perdidochas]

Thanks for responding, but I'm more curious how many people agree with me (see my comment). Also, your use of the word "convenience" leads back to my question "Are we over-conveniencing..."

Also...pardon my ignorance...but I don't know what HYOH means. (I'm a vintage man, and acronyms trouble me.) :)

Local saying, Hike your own hike. It means you can like or dislike something, but frankly, I don't care, as I'm going to do as I like to do.

[perdidochas]

I am not a Luddite but I don't own a smartphone. I have recently carried a Kindle and Ipod to use in my tent. I think many people have an addiction to smartphone use and it is not a generational issue. I have seen people of all ages glued to their phones. I don't see how devices expand the outdoor experience for the user. On the other hand I have read accounts of hikers spending extra time in town just so they can catch up with all their social networking. This seems to subtract from the outdoor experience. Like others, what I object to is the intrusion of their use by others on my space. I have encountered hikers on the trail with their music blasting so they could share it with their friends. On numerous occasions people have carried out phone conversations at shelters, overlooks, etc. Just like any public place, to me that is just plain rude.

I agree with you about smartphone addiction not being generational. Locally in Pensacola, in winter, we have a lot of "snowbirds" who are retirees who vacation here in the winter when it's cheap, because it's much warmer than the snow country they are from. Went out to eat with my wife, and most of the older couples out there were on their smartphones at their tables. The teens/twenty-somethings we saw were actually talking to each other (on dates).

[perdidochas]

[QUOTE=greenpete;2243073]...great that you're able to enjoy raptors, turtles, and bunnies while listening to "lovely music" and taking many photos. Do you think maybe your experience would be even more enhanced by listening to a soft wind, and not having your visual attention diverted by focusing your camera, trying to get the best angle, checking the photo you just took, then maybe repeating the process if you don't like that photo?...
...your nature experience has been compromised by fiddling with your technology. And this is just a camera. Throw in a smartphone, GPS, apps...whatever...and I hope you can see what I'm getting at.
I'm not "lecturing." I'm just stressing an observation of mine, and posing the question "Do you think hikers are going too far with the technology?" Others have said that hikers with boom boxes and cells have disturbed their peace on the trail. A legitimate beef. Someone's personal drone whizzed and buzzed over my head in Yosemite last year and f***ed up an otherwise luscious experience at Sunrise Lake. So this obsession with technology DOES affect other people.[Quote]


The question was posed to someone else but I absolutely do understand what you're saying Greenpete. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfjkiTB1fHQ


Ben Stiller: When are you going to take it(picture)?

Sean Penn: Sometimes, I don't. If I like a moment, I mean me, personally, I don' t like to have the distraction of the camera. I just want to stay...in it. Yeah, right there. Right here.

Sean is there, in it, absorbed, connected in the moment. Did you feel it? I did. I felt like I was having the moment with him. I could see through his eyes, having the experience as he did. That's connecting in different aspects. RICH!

Consider the worth of those pics? Consider the effort in getting to that place in the world and into that situation to locate, clearly frame, the lighting, and get a front cover Nat Geo cover shot of a snow leopard as a professional photographer? Yet Sean didn't lose himself in technology. He even pulls back from the camera having the profound moment for himself. Look at his face. Hear his voice. That's being there in the moment ported on film!

It's fiction, not a true story.

[perdidochas]

This is what,-- in debate circles,-- is called "setting up a straw man." Not really for you to say what "the whole idea" of backpacking is, is it?

BTW, I did not take time to read all the pages of posts, so apologies if I'm repeating someone.

My dear wife lets me go backpacking just about any time I want, where I want, for as long as I want. I am happy to and want to check in with her from time to time. Apologies to all whom my use of electronic technology offends.Tech is useful to keep our loved ones from worrying as much.

[greenpete]

It's fiction, not a true story.

Uh...yes. And your point? Fiction can often highlight truths much better than nonfiction can.

[Dogwood]

Local saying, Hike your own hike. It means you can like or dislike something, but frankly, I don't care, as I'm going to do as I like to do.

This equals "I'm only responsible to myself."


I'm going to do as I like to do too! Keg party at Perdidocha's living room tonight. We'll all be tenting on your property and taking dirty baths in your swimming pool. Make sure to have your credit card ready to pay for the alcohol and my new DCF shelter. I'll take one of those new BA $1000 Tiger Walls! Order those 20 pizzas ahead of time. 5 veggie specials with roasted eggplant, organic goat Gouda and artichokes. Dont skimp on the artichokes! Pay for extra ya cheapskate. We'll be taking your credit card for that too. And, make sure they're hot when we all arrive and the Heiny kegs and Grey Goose are well chilled.:p

[D2maine]

I think you're just being unintentionally insulting, and claiming that something that you don't understand and agree with therefore must be a bad thing, as far as you're concerned. You're then making up reasons why they're a bad thing. Safety? No, that one's been debunked too many times. Let's go with "those with technology can't enjoy nature," yeah, that's the ticket. You're telling people, what's in their heads. Think about that. You claim I wasn't in the moment, seriously? That's just a weak argument. Should I have ignored the two women I chatted with as well? Sorry maam, can't talk to you right now, I'm in the moment with nature, and the slightest distraction is taking me out of the moment with nature! You're just grasping at straws. Technology as being rude and distracting to other people on the trail. I'm just not buying that it's a statistically significant problem that's unique to technology.

I get it, when cell phones first came out 30ish years ago, they were a joke, 20 years ago, I myself was highly skeptical about cell phones and their effect on society. I didn't get a smart phone until three years ago, because I had absolutely no need of one. I thought who could possibly "need" to be so impatient that they couldn't wait to get home to browse the net? Strangely enough, I was gifted my very first cell phone to start with my AT thru hike attempt in 2016. My daughter gave me a beat up old iphone that barely had the processing power to turn itself on, barely enough battery power to run the Guthook app for navigation, twice a day. I also carried a camera, an extra two memory chips for the camera, a compass, a pound of paper maps, a Kindle, and a sixth of the AWOL guidebook. I walked about a month with that set up. I had to interrupt my hike, and get off the trail to mail a memory chip full of pictures to a daughter, who had to drive to my house, download that chip to my PC, drive back home, and mail that empty chip back to a post office ahead of me, so I could pick it up. Hours of my time, hours of my families time, just to get pictures... (which I require because of my crappy memory.) I stopped in Franklin, NC (I think) and bought a brand new phone, Guthook performed flawlessly, the camera was better than my phone, I had no need of paper maps, I sent pounds of weight home, I no longer had to leave the trail to send/store my pictures. It was convenient to label those pictures so I'd remember where they were taken. I learned that "My assumptions about cell phone users being impatient was dead wrong." The cell phone is just a tool, it can be used safely, and different applications can be used by different people, for different reasons and different times." The ones who use them unsafely, are a self correcting problem and die on the roadways. We don't have to worry about that portion of the population on the trail. (I also had a neighbor die in her car when she was putting on makeup, and drove into a bus, so we can't blame all our distraction problems on technology.)

I live in a cottage in the woods, I can open a window and hear nature for half the year, at the end of my road are a network of trails, I live ten minutes from a legitimate mountain, within thirty minutes of another, and within an hour of many more. Every week, I climb a mountain, every day, I at least hit my local trails. Bringing my phone with me, or forgetting to charge it and leaving it at home isn't a big consideration to me. I'm equally happy with it or without it. Sometimes it makes a nice change to do things a little differently. There is not only one way to enjoy hiking for me.

As for the lonely old man comment. I'm a volunteer driver for the elderly. A see a whole lot of bitter lonely old people, they're sad because the world is passing them by, they don't understand the technology, they losing the power and control that they used to enjoy, their bodies are failing them, their kids are busy with their own lives. Like every generation before them who's gotten old, rather than accepting their situation and maybe doing something constructive about it they blame what they don't understand.

So, you can learn to roll with the punches, to embrace the technology, or you can whine about it. Different, does not equate to worse. I'm not suggesting that you specifically are lonely, and bitter, but you just might be heading down that road. It's been a few decades now, it's time to adapt. There's no great percentage of phone addicts out there as you seem to think, skateboarding is not a crime, music today is just as vibrant and inventive as it was when you were young. Or, you can keep railing against the injustice of a world that you don't understand because you're proudly claiming "not to be a swallower." That's just another term for being pointlessly inflexible. There's more to the world than what your daddy taught you. You need to think for yourself and see how the world is actually functioning these days. There's a whole lot of positive love out there in the world.

As for the people secretly feeling guilty, that's just wishing on your part. Yeah, and you can end that story with "then an eagle few out on of the sky and landed on my shoulder, crying a single tear." A safety blanket? As if cell phone users are infants refusing to let go of their blankies? There's nothing wrong with safety devices.

Are you suggesting that you walk naked into the woods, and put a stick in the ground to check the angle of the sun to aid with direction, based on the changing seasons, that you take no safety precautions, that you build your own shelters, hunt your own game with tools that you've built, and all that? Because I don't believe that you do, I think you use 98% of the exact same gear and safety devices that the rest of us do, and you're being pointlessly obstinate about the other 2%.

The cell phone user who walked into the fountain at the mall, that was hilarious. I laughed too! But that's not how people use their tech on the trail.

Buy a cheap $100 smart phone, like a 4th generation moto X, get a month to month service plan with minimal data, I'd recommend Verizon, which has great coverage along the trail. Use the Google Maps app for every day navigation, buy the Guthook app, get out on the trail. Use the phone as much or as little as you want. Use the phone, once a day, or or once a week, but use it. Ditch your home phone plan when you're comfortable, you'll likely save money overall. Come back in a year and join in this conversation as an informed individual, because currently, you aren't making much sense.

Hey, maybe I'm entirely wrong about you. I'm not trying to be mean, I can only go by what you're written yourself here in this thread, and making assumptions based on what you've written. Pining for the golden days that were never quite all that golden isn't going to help you enjoy the trail more. The only think that's going to help you enjoy the trail is to get out onto the trail with a positive attitude.

It's a gorgeous day outside, I'm going to go climb mount Kearsage. Yeah, I'll be driving my motorized horseless carriage to get over there, instead of making the 2.5 hour road walk each way. Wearing high tech clothing, microspikes, poles and yeah, even bringing my phone, with which I'll use as a safety device to text my daughter when I arrive at the specific trailhead, what trail I'm hiking and when I can be expected back. I may or may not listen to music during all or part of the hike. So, respond if you like, I'll read it eventually, because I enjoy debating on the internet probably a bit more than is good for my own mental health.

Edit: Grammar, typos, general suckiness at typing. There are probably more mistakes, correct them in your head.

100% agreed but unfortunately all you had to say is going to fly right over the heads of the "get off my lawn" brigade that makes up the majority of white blaze's active posters.

[Dogwood]

Even my wife becomes very defensive when I tell her she shouldn't be spending so much time on F-Book. I can understand how certain hikers are sensitive to implications that they may be overdoing the technology.

I'm not sure it's an "addiction," but I'm convinced there's an over-reliance on technology. Yeah, it's less obvious in the mountains than in the local park, or at a restaurant. My God, the bowed heads and glazed eyes that I witness. But I'm convinced those bowed heads and glazed (or at least, diverted) eyes are becoming more and more prevalent on the trails. I'm not being accusatory. I'm just giving my opinion based on what I've observed.

Four yrs ago was at the summit of NY's Mt Marcy during a NLPT thru on a beautiful fall weather Sunday. 5 mph warm breeze. Sunny skies. Big puffy clouds perfect for doing cloud surveys. Fall color was at its peak. Bald Eagles and several hawk species were floating on thermals. With a quick count I got to 200 people. They were stumbling into and jostling each other like it was Mon 7 a.m. at the Tokyo Metro Shinjuku Station stop. More than 300 people at the summit. Best guess, about 350. Literally, no exaggeration, a good half of the people had their focus and awareness limited to a 3x5 phone. Many were trying to "take a lonely(Selfie)." I went to the side for a snack and sit down away from the fray where no one was! They walked like Zombie extras in Walking Dead through my food and the place where I was sitting. Several stumbled on on my removed pack. Some never expressed ANY awareness of what they had did. They were all glued to stabbing at their UnSmart mobile computer devices trying to get "connected." There was no reception for anyone! Dozens of people we're saying it - irritated, agitated, selfishly demanding, seeking to manipulate to get what THEY wanted, NEEDED just like the crack heads, detoxing heroin addicts, DTing alcoholics, and meth heads I've seen! Talk about being disconnected, unaware, ignorant, and vain!
Now, we're going to say it's simply a matter of being mindful of your usage? Give me break!


Don't get it twisted either. I too go to the trail and wilderness because I too need to detox, to sober up from societal norms.

[KnightErrant]

Unless one hikes as an athletic pursuit (for a challenge, for fitness, etc.), the whole idea of a mountain hike is about getting out and enjoying nature, and separating oneself from the artificiality and cushy conveniences of urban/suburban society. Isn’t it? If so, why are so many people dragging the digital revolution onto the trail? Don’t devices like handheld computers (iPhones) and various “apps” compromise the back-to-nature experience?

I disagree with the premise that there is any objective "whole idea" to getting out and enjoying nature.

In another post, OP, you said that people are disagreeing with you because they feel "guilty for relying on their toys." Personally, I disagree with you because I think you don't get to define the point of hiking (for anyone except yourself).

I hike because I enjoy being out in the woods in the elements, because I find the exertion immensely satisfying, because feeling mountains under my feet makes me feel tangibly connected to the physical world. I hike because I love seeing animals and vistas and mushrooms and rocks and rivers. Sometimes I hike to socialize with other hikers or sometimes to avoid seeing other humans for days. I hike because I love it with a simple certainty that I rarely feel about anything else.

And having my smartphone with me interferes with these objectives... oh, about 0%.

Yes, it's a safety tool, among other things, but I don't get why people act like checking in with folks at home is somehow weak or dependent or inauthentic. I mean, it's your prerogative to decide how much communication with your family is appropriate for you, but I look at texting my mom every couple of days as an act of respect, of consideration for her feelings. Sure, maybe it would be macho and cool and authentic to let my mother wait until my next zero to know I haven't been struck by lightening or whatever, but I think the fear (even if irrational) that something has happened to me would burden her far more than taking a few minutes on a mountaintop when I get reception to send her an update would burden me.

And if you catch up to me at a summit, and you see me "glued to my phone" while I'm doing that, and you feel like my "lack of restraint" somehow infringes on your wilderness experience, I would say that I am not the person with a problem. Sure, loud music or drones are poor etiquette on the level of second hand smoking. But I fail to see how my use of my phone to text home, check Guthook, take photos, or listen to music with my headphones could possibly be considered rudeness, when I am minding my own business and thoroughly enjoying my hike, all while respecting the trail and my fellow hikers by following LNT.

[Dogwood]

Sure, loud music or drones are poor etiquette on the level of second hand smoking. But I fail to see how my use of my phone to text home, check Guthook, take photos, or listen to music with my headphones could possibly be considered rudeness, when I am minding my own business and thoroughly enjoying my hike, all while respecting the trail and my fellow hikers by following LNT.


Just said in the post above how your electronic behavioral problems can impose on others from a personal experience. I can relate more if you like?


This is the nature of denying the impacts of habitual and addictive behaviors. You're not always fully aware of your impacts until something catastrophic happens like "hitting rock bottom" - you have a moment of sobriety. No more digital connection. The "drugs" run out. It's not that a glass or two of wine makes and alcoholic. Neither does electronic use absolutely means all are addicts but modern society is set up primed for societal and behavioral addictions.

[4eyedbuzzard]

The biggest technological innovations that transformed the outdoors was the use of aluminum and nylon in backpacking gear making it possible for the masses to actually carry enough gear to sleep out in the woods - without a pack mule to carry the load. Dick Kelty pretty much changed hiking/backpacking forever with his pack and hip belt, and the evolution in gear that followed is still ongoing. We're now warmer and cooler and dryer and healthier as a result of all the "technology in the woods". 40 years of technology has given me better performing gear that weighs half as much. Are we addicted? Yeah, I'm afraid so.

For me, both on and off trail, a cell phone is simply another modern convenience brought about by technology. And they still equip them with an on/off button. But I'm of an age when you used to have to turn the dial to select one of only three TV channels (that displayed a test pattern from midnight thru 6 am), and actually dial a phone number (and God help you if you engaged in any idle chit-chat on a long-distance call!) And I'm definitely not installing a distributor with points and condenser in my car for nostalgia's sake, or going on a road trip with only a Rand-McNally road atlas.

There are a lot of people who might not otherwise be able to get away at all if they didn't have a means of checking in periodically and/or being contacted in a reasonable amount of time in an emergency. And they can be useful in a trail emergency. I don't see where that is a bad thing. Are they a distraction? For some yes, for others no, and probably for most just a momentary distraction from their nature experience. It's (distraction) a price they are willing to pay. It beats the old method of posting messages for hikers in shelter logs and at trailheads. Someone checking their messages or maps on phones or even calling home doesn't really affect me. And if it did, I could always politely let them know that it does.

Either way, as with Aluminum and Titanium and carbon fiber, nylon and dyneema, and all the other tech and engineering we take into the woods, phones aren't going to become less used. We need to learn how to live with them - and the people that use them.

[KnightErrant]

Just said in the post above how your electronic behavioral problems can impose on others from a personal experience.

Well sure, walking into people or their belongings would be disruptive. Complaining loudly about the lack of reception would be disruptive. I agree that loud voices and invasion of space are both annoying behaviors, but neither one is necessary to using a phone nor exclusive to phone users.

Me, I get to a summit, whip out my sit pad and a snack, enjoy the view for a while, and maybe snap a few photos and switch off airplane mode to check if there's enough reception to send a message to my mom or see the weather forecast. If that "imposes" on you, I'm not sure what to say. That's about as rational as being bothered by someone reading a book or wearing a color you don't like.

[Tipi Walter]

The biggest technological innovations that transformed the outdoors was the use of aluminum and nylon in backpacking gear making it possible for the masses to actually carry enough gear to sleep out in the woods - without a pack mule to carry the load. Dick Kelty pretty much changed hiking/backpacking forever with his pack and hip belt, and the evolution in gear that followed is still ongoing. We're now warmer and cooler and dryer and healthier as a result of all the "technology in the woods". 40 years of technology has given me better performing gear that weighs half as much.

For me, both on and off trail, a cell phone is simply another modern convenience brought about by technology. And they still equip them with an on/off button. But I'm of an age when you used to have to turn the dial to select one of only three TV channels (that displayed a test pattern from midnight thru 6 am), and actually dial a phone number (and God help you if you engaged in any idle chit-chat on a long-distance call!) And I'm definitely not installing a distributor with points and condenser in my car for nostalgia's sake, or going on a road trip with only a Rand-McNally road atlas.

There are a lot of people who might not otherwise be able to get away at all if they didn't have a means of checking in periodically and/or being contacted in a reasonable amount of time in an emergency. And they can be useful in a trail emergency. I don't see where that is a bad thing. Are they a distraction? For some yes, for others no, and probably for most just a momentary distraction from their nature experience. It's (distraction) a price they are willing to pay. It beats the old method of posting messages for hikers in shelter logs and at trailheads.

Either way, as with Aluminum and Titanium and carbon fiber, nylon and dyneema, and all the other tech and engineering we take into the woods, phones aren't going to become less used.

I mentioned the same thing in a couple of my posts. Heck the common hatchet is a technological gadget. My backpack is very modern with all sorts of technological improvements---and a big step up even from Kelty's old packs. Thing is, my pack or its spectra lid will not allow me to get online and check FB or whatever else while I'm out. Neither will my MSR stove or leather boots. I won't ever be walking around fixated and captivated by a small computer screen---and I won't be holding up my backpacking spoon 6 inches from my face for hours at a time---you get the idea.

And let's not forget the big monthly bill which is attached to a smartphone. Yikes. In the old days no dirtbagging backpacker I knew had the extra $100 per month or whatever to spend on such a device. We were buying food from town to town with whatever money we had. Shelter trail registers worked just fine for messages---along with some paper maps and a couple paperback books.

Technological improvements are not always better. Look at crank car windows vs electric windows. Motor goes out and that window is finished. The smartphone itself is a far step back from the full size screen and the full sized typing keyboard. Now we've gone back in evolution with thousands of people thumb-typing.

[greenpete]

I disagree with the premise that there is any objective "whole idea" to getting out and enjoying nature.

That's fine, disagree to your heart's content. It's why I asked "Isn't it?"

In another post, OP, you said that people are disagreeing with you because they feel "guilty for relying on their toys." Personally, I disagree with you because I think you don't get to define the point of hiking (for anyone except yourself).

Sorry, but I believe I suggested that the zeal of their DEFENSIVENESS, when all I did was suggest there might be "too much technology on the trail," might indicate some guilt for their relying on their toys. Mine was a theory in response to another commenter's theory that anti-tech hikers feel (ahem) "lonely." An odd one, but I guess we all have our own theories.

I hike because I enjoy being out in the woods in the elements, because I find the exertion immensely satisfying, because feeling mountains under my feet makes me feel tangibly connected to the physical world. I hike because I love seeing animals and vistas and mushrooms and rocks and rivers. Sometimes I hike to socialize with other hikers or sometimes to avoid seeing other humans for days. I hike because I love it with a simple certainty that I rarely feel about anything else.

Everything you've listed here - well, everything except socializing with other hikers, which isn't something that (I don't think) normally comes to mind - aligns with my statement about "getting out and enjoying nature and separating oneself..." Besides, I asked the question "Isn't it?" You obviously add other reasons for mountain backpacking, which is fine. But everything you listed above can be accomplished WITHOUT digital electronics, and...IN MY OPINION...their absence enhances the experience.


And having my smartphone with me interferes with these objectives... oh, about 0%.

I sincerely doubt that.

Yes, it's a safety tool, among other things, but I don't get why people act like checking in with folks at home is somehow weak or dependent or inauthentic. I mean, it's your prerogative to decide how much communication with your family is appropriate for you, but I look at texting my mom every couple of days as an act of respect, of consideration for her feelings. Sure, maybe it would be macho and cool and authentic to let my mother wait until my next zero to know I haven't been struck by lightening or whatever, but I think the fear (even if irrational) that something has happened to me would burden her far more than taking a few minutes on a mountaintop when I get reception to send her an update would burden me.

Like I said elsewhere, several times, I carry a flip-phone (to communicate with my wife, my kids, and my mom.) I never suggested checking in with home was "weak." The gist of my forum topic here is that I believe digital electronics are getting out of hand. And from what I've observed, and what certain others here have confirmed, they are. It's a matter of degree, sir. The Amish don't shun all technology. Individual sects shun certain technologies they've agreed will compromise their religious beliefs. I'm asserting that maybe...MAYBE...hikers should begin to think about limiting certain digital electronics. It's an individual choice, yes. But if enough individuals make the effort, I believe mountain backpacking experiences for EVERYONE will be enhanced. Probably won't happen, though. We're too addicted to our toys.

And if you catch up to me at a summit, and you see me "glued to my phone" while I'm doing that, and you feel like my "lack of restraint" somehow infringes on your wilderness experience, I would say that I am not the person with a problem. Sure, loud music or drones are poor etiquette on the level of second hand smoking. But I fail to see how my use of my phone to text home, check Guthook, take photos, or listen to music with my headphones could possibly be considered rudeness, when I am minding my own business and thoroughly enjoying my hike, all while respecting the trail and my fellow hikers by following LNT.

Where did you read that I said a person with a phone might have a "problem" or might be exhibiting "rudeness"? Once again...please re-read my original post. This demonization tactic is fairly common in politics today. I will reassert that your words indicate a defensiveness that is out of hand, and...IN MY OPINION...might indicate feelings of guilt for your reliance on those electronic safety blankets you listed. Actually...if you do have such feelings of guilt...maybe you do have a problem after all.

[Puddlefish]

Well sure, walking into people or their belongings would be disruptive. Complaining loudly about the lack of reception would be disruptive. I agree that loud voices and invasion of space are both annoying behaviors, but neither one is necessary to using a phone nor exclusive to phone users.

Me, I get to a summit, whip out my sit pad and a snack, enjoy the view for a while, and maybe snap a few photos and switch off airplane mode to check if there's enough reception to send a message to my mom or see the weather forecast. If that "imposes" on you, I'm not sure what to say. That's about as rational as being bothered by someone reading a book or wearing a color you don't like.
I agree... unless the color is red. People who wear red are selfish vermin with no respect for others, they're just pathetic color addicts, poncing around in all of their redness.





/sorry

[CalebJ]

Where did you read that I said a person with a phone might have a "problem" or might be exhibiting "rudeness"? Once again...please re-read my original post. This demonization tactic is fairly common in politics today. I will reassert that your words indicate a defensiveness that is out of hand, and...IN MY OPINION...might indicate feelings of guilt for your reliance on those electronic safety blankets you listed. Actually...if you do have such feelings of guilt...maybe you do have a problem after all.

How blind are you to your own tactics? You come here and define what backpacking should mean to all of us, imply that those who don't do it your way are fearful and various other things, then you believe that we're demonizing YOU? Does the concept of gas lighting mean nothing to you?

[Southeast]

I feel like those pushing the no phone agenda are the ones annoyed and losing the true wilderness experience by letting it get under their skin out in the backcountry. Maybe some therapy would help. /s

[KnightErrant]

Where did you read that I said a person with a phone might have a "problem" or might be exhibiting "rudeness"? Once again...please re-read my original post. This demonization tactic is fairly common in politics today. I will reassert that your words indicate a defensiveness that is out of hand, and...IN MY OPINION...might indicate feelings of guilt for your reliance on those electronic safety blankets you listed. Actually...if you do have such feelings of guilt...maybe you do have a problem after all."

@Greenpete, The title of the thread is "Too much technology." The phrase "too much" suggests something is happening to a problematic extent. Rudeness is a synonym for "lack of restraint and etiquette." I don't think I've misrepresented your opinion just because I haven't quoted you exactly. But it's not productive to attempt a conversation when one party is operating under the assumption that any disagreement is demonization and/or defensiveness that thus serves to reinforce his original argument. I mean, on the first page you literally shut down multiple people who offered differing opinions by saying you were just curious about who agreed with you, so I guess I should have known what I was getting myself into when I took the time to respond.

Ahh, Whiteblaze, again and again proving there's no wrong way to eat a Reeses, but there IS a wrong way to enjoy the outdoors and it's any way that's different from mine, darnit!

[TexasBob]

,,,,,,, But I'm of an age when you used to have to turn the dial to select one of only three TV channels (that displayed a test pattern from midnight thru 6 am), and actually dial a phone number (and God help you if you engaged in any idle chit-chat on a long-distance call!) And I'm definitely not installing a distributor with points and condenser in my car for nostalgia's sake, or going on a road trip with only a Rand-McNally road atlas...........

You made me laugh when I thought about changing the points, condenser and plugs every 10,000 miles and setting the timing with a strobe light and by turning the distributer. Thank goodness for progress.

[greenpete]

@Greenpete, The title of the thread is "Too much technology." The phrase "too much" suggests something is happening to a problematic extent. Rudeness is a synonym for "lack of restraint and etiquette." I don't think I've misrepresented your opinion just because I haven't quoted you exactly. But it's not productive to attempt a conversation when one party is operating under the assumption that any disagreement is demonization and/or defensiveness that thus serves to reinforce his original argument. I mean, on the first page you literally shut down multiple people who offered differing opinions by saying you were just curious about who agreed with you, so I guess I should have known what I was getting myself into when I took the time to respond.

Ahh, Whiteblaze, again and again proving there's no wrong way to eat a Reeses, but there IS a wrong way to enjoy the outdoors and it's any way that's different from mine, darnit!

KnightErrant, you're pretty perceptive, and I like your style. I will admit I probably worded my original post such that it implied there definitively IS too much technology on the trail. ("Too much" is a subjective view). And I've clung to that while attempting (without realizing it) to rationalize in subsequent comments. And you're right, rudeness is a synonym for "lack of restraint and etiquette," and it was wrong of me to imply that those who strongly defend their "devices" may be feeling guilty for having to rely on them. (That was a response to a similar accusation against us anti-tech folks.) THEREFORE...I'll take the high road and apologize to you and anyone else I may have offended.

That being said, I do think there are many instances when electronics are intrusive on other hikers, and their increasing incursion into the mountains doesn't bode well for wildlife, either (in my opinion). My own experience on a quiet lake in Yosemite, with a drone buzzing overhead, testifies to that (you'll have to take my word). I've never claimed to be a purist. Like I said, I have a flip-phone for emergency, and with which to call loved ones. My concern is that this country's remaining wildlands could become just another internet café. We could probably argue this point till the chickens (or raptors) come home to roost. But that's my take, take it or leave it.

Anyway...as Ringo always says: Peace and Love!

"Wilderness is where things work the way they're supposed to work" - Walkin' Jim Stoltz

[Uriah]

I feel like those pushing the no phone agenda are the ones annoyed and losing the true wilderness experience by letting it get under their skin out in the backcountry. Maybe some therapy would help. /s

That's about the dumbest thing I've read here. I don't think anyone has such an agenda; I think we all realize the technology is here to stay. Or is overrun by newer technology.

But it's sort of sad to see the lines between civilization and the backcountry (or whatever you care to call the untouched land) steadily morph into one. Little by little, humans are losing touch with their origins, and as the backcountry/wilderness/nature continues to disappear, or succumbs to the industrial complex and becomes more "civilized," well then, what's the point of even trying to preserve any of it, or have these discussions?

This may seem fatalistic, but as humans become less interested in "their" surroundings when within nature, as each subsequent generation tends to, nature hasn't a fighting chance. (Really just affecting we robotic humanoids and today's unfortunate other lifeforms.) Thankfully, nature bats last, and in time, she'll scour herself clean and begin anew. Maybe the next so-called high-intelligent lifeforms will be a little less parasitic and self-destructive!

[Southeast]

That's about the dumbest thing I've read here. I don't think anyone has such an agenda; I think we all realize the technology is here to stay. Or is overrun by newer technology.

But it's sort of sad to see the lines between civilization and the backcountry (or whatever you care to call the untouched land) steadily morph into one. Little by little, humans are losing touch with their origins, and as the backcountry/wilderness/nature continues to disappear, or succumbs to the industrial complex and becomes more "civilized," well then, what's the point of even trying to preserve any of it, or have these discussions?

This may seem fatalistic, but as humans become less interested in "their" surroundings when within nature, as each subsequent generation tends to, nature hasn't a fighting chance. (Really just affecting we robotic humanoids and today's unfortunate other lifeforms.) Thankfully, nature bats last, and in time, she'll scour herself clean and begin anew. Maybe the next so-called high-intelligent lifeforms will be a little less parasitic and self-destructive!

Please. Why do you think the OP started this thread? It was looking for validation that there’s too much technology in the wilderness. When folks provided good reasons for using a phone, it didn’t matter. They knew our secret reasons.

And thanks for the rest of your comment - made me laugh to think you’ve taken this post on using phones to argue it will lead to some post-apocalyptic planet lead by robots. Or cockroaches.
And no I won’t resort to childish ways of describing your thinking.

[Dogwood]

ahh, whiteblaze, again and again proving there's no wrong way to eat a reeses, but there is a wrong way to enjoy the outdoors and it's any way that's different from mine, darnit!

lmao.......

[Dogwood]

That's about the dumbest thing I've read here. I don't think anyone has such an agenda; I think we all realize the technology is here to stay. Or is overrun by newer technology.

But it's sort of sad to see the lines between civilization and the backcountry (or whatever you care to call the untouched land) steadily morph into one. Little by little, humans are losing touch with their origins, and as the backcountry/wilderness/nature continues to disappear, or succumbs to the industrial complex and becomes more "civilized," well then, what's the point of even trying to preserve any of it, or have these discussions?

This may seem fatalistic, but as humans become less interested in "their" surroundings when within nature, as each subsequent generation tends to, nature hasn't a fighting chance. (Really just affecting we robotic humanoids and today's unfortunate other lifeforms.) Thankfully, nature bats last, and in time, she'll scour herself clean and begin anew. Maybe the next so-called high-intelligent lifeforms will be a little less parasitic and self-destructive!
Connecting with nature will be downloading a virtual reality of it at regional amusement parks.

On to the next planet to colonize like a parasitic organism.

Next stop on the stationary riding - standing - not walking - East Coast Metro People Walkway - formerly known in barbaric times as the Appalachian Trail, is Hot Springs NC. We'll be arriving at the Mt Katahadin Maine stop in 23 mins. Present your forearm chip to be read for fare processing. All aboard.

[Traveler]

To what extent does that apply?


This is the type of "I'm only responsible to myself" attitude that can be a growing problem...because in the real world, with imperfect fallible human behavior, the awareness qualifier "keep it unobtrusive so as not to disturb anyone nearby" can be lacking. It's in evidence every time when discussing behavioral responsibility beyond the end of one's nose on WB. It's why LNT or quota or regulations discussions can get so heated. It's why we need MODS to control something that one might expect to be as simple as what to discretionary post on a Female Forum!



What if an individual's definition of what a hike should be, what it should include, or how it should be done is not pulling or displaying a required permit as part of regs, playing music at 9 p.m. at an AT shelter with six others sleeping on Fri night because it's 'early' on a typical party night - time to dance on the picnic tables with your other two party buddies - backpacking and wilderness drunkenness and other drugs are a natural, being in the habit of arriving at an AT shelter after 9 p.m. because you're going fast and light doing 30+ miles/day making up for a late start - any food anyone, I'm low on food?, hiking naked as a "minimalist- be free" male dangling down the trail meeting up with a Girl Scout Troop or free balling wearing a kilt not using discretion when sitting or doing cartwheels, taking a dump in or right next to the trail or in CS's, hiking with your dog off leash with little command of your "emotional support" pet or saying your Rottweilers are loving needed "service" animals because NO Dogs on trail doesn't apply to you, leaving food tins in fire rings, discarding broken or unwanted garbage and gear under a shelter, cutting switchbacks, trees are for firewood - that's why I bring a hatchet, to chop down trees, stalking women on trail...

Seen all those situations, some many times.


We bring our off trail habits and addictions - YES addictions - to the trail. What if off trail you're addicted to digital or fart ph(mobile computer) usage, being a habitual racist, sexist, bigot, slob,...?





It's very easy to say that. In practice people don't do what is said or what they know they should do, especially when being controlled by habits and addictions - such as electronic usage can be - an addiction where one is likely to disregard their impacts on others.

Modern high income per capita cultures such as the U.S. ignore cultural tendencies and addictions even promoting them for economic, social, or other reasons. We bring these tendencies and addictions to the trail... and we expect and often demand others to kowtow to them - tech and digital applications included.

Right. So if you are going to use technology, do so unobtrusively (so as not to disturb others nearby).

[rickb]

Those who have never been (semi) disconnected may only see the downside — which is very real. But so too is the updside.

its not just HYOH.

You can’t go home again.

[RockDoc]

But have we gone too far? Yes, definitely.

[Dogwood]

Right. So if you are going to use technology, do so unobtrusively (so as not to disturb others nearby).

That makes all the sense in the world until a widening number of people in a society have serious problematic habits and addictions. It's like advising "Just say No." It's similar to saying to a 500 Lb person you know what you need, you need to eat less and go for a run? :rolleyes:

[foodbag]

I agree - too much technology on the trail, and in our daily lives too (he says as he taps away on his computer). I'm older, and although technology is quite useful, in the wrong hands it can create chaos, and a lot of e-waste too. But, as long as there's money to be made, there will be gadgets available for sale....

[cliffordbarnabus]

i take care of a property near the smokies. i cycle there often with treats for the hikers at the fontana hilton or at stecoah gap. i always "make deposits" at the fontana hilton restrooms. in the men's restroom, you will see power strips plugged into power strips plugged into power strips with all sorts of gadgets charging.

even though i'm a millennial and have thru'ed the AT twice, i still don't and won't own a cell phone.

wyow. because i walk. i don't hike.

[Leo L.]

Nothing wrong with carrying electronic devices, IMHO.
It only comes down to how you're using it.

For my kind of hikes, a smartphone running a GPS app basically is a godsend. It replaces a huge load of paper I had to carry earlier, plus gives me way better accuracy and much more information, not to speak about all the other travel-specific goodies a smartphone can provde, like managing flights etc.
But then, I well remember my first few years of hiking with a smartphone when every time I started to get tired I more and more pulled out the device to follow my progress, just to get more and more frustrated about my slow going. I basically had to learn how to make good use of the smartphone while avoiding all the typical pitfalls of over-using it.
I believe I'm ready now to handle it properly, and don't see any bad in carrying and using it.

[OwenM]

Must be an AT thing(?), which I have zero interest in due to its popularity. Only time I've seen some of the stuff mentioned here was on the outer edges of tourist season in the "front country" of popular national parks like Yosemite(holy crap, the Japanese women *lay in the road* and take selfies?!?) and Zion.
'Course I actively avoid other people. Hardly see other hikers, and when I do, they're usually going the opposite way on the trail. Either way, it's not my place to tell someone else how to enjoy themselves, and I don't really care what they do, as long as it isn't hurting me or the trail-littering, etc.


Shoot, I want a GoPro and a drone to make cool hiking and mountain biking videos like I see online.
But I don't want to pay for, carry, or edit footage from, a GoPro and a drone, so alas, internet fame eludes me😥

[JoshMcR]

To an extent. Apps like Guthooks have destroyed the adventurous aspect of thru-hiking. Now everyone can just look at their phone and know where every water spot is, tent spot, what every town is like before they get there, where the cool things are, know what each shelter will be like, etc... There's no hidden gems anymore. No mystery. No discovery. Even if you don't use those apps, you'll constantly hear from people that do. It also causes nice spots to become over-crowded as everyone ends up going to the same locations.

[Lone Wolf]

they're comin' through Damascus now like zombies with their faces buried in devices

[Tipi Walter]

they're comin' through Damascus now like zombies with their faces buried in devices

Drooling zombies.

[Dogwood]

Four yrs ago was at the summit of NY's Mt Marcy during a NLPT thru on a beautiful fall weather Sunday. 5 mph warm breeze. Sunny skies. Big puffy clouds perfect for doing cloud surveys. Fall color was at its peak. Bald Eagles and several hawk species were floating on thermals. With a quick count I got to 200 people. They were stumbling into and jostling each other like it was Mon 7 a.m. at the Tokyo Metro Shinjuku Station stop. More than 300 people at the summit. Best guess, about 350. Literally, no exaggeration, a good half of the people had their focus and awareness limited to a 3x5 phone. Many were trying to "take a lonely(Selfie)." I went to the side for a snack and sit down away from the fray where no one was! They walked like Zombie extras in Walking Dead through my food and the place where I was sitting. Several stumbled on on my removed pack. Some never expressed ANY awareness of what they had did. They were all glued to stabbing at their UnSmart mobile computer devices trying to get "connected." There was no reception for anyone! Dozens of people we're saying it - irritated, agitated, selfishly demanding, seeking to manipulate to get what THEY wanted, NEEDED just like the crack heads, detoxing heroin addicts, DTing alcoholics, and meth heads I've seen! Talk about being disconnected, unaware, ignorant, and vain!

Now, we're going to say it's simply a matter of being mindful of your usage? Give me break!

Don't get it twisted either. I too go to the trail and wilderness because I too need to detox, to sober up from societal norms.

There was a young female Adirondack Park Docent, about 18-19 yrs old, in uniform, engaged in light conversation speaking about the Nature and protections of Adirondak Park to about 25 people of different ages, ethnicities, colors, economic status, gender identities, political stances, etc standing in a semi circle around her. We were people of many persuasions, all having a delightful, cordial, and mutually respectful give and take - an actual in person polite discussion. NONE of us had faces glued to a Fartph. What made it difficult for all were constant rude self absorbed indifferent cold unfeeling impolite pushiness from those wanting her to immediately answer where cell reception was available. One husband and wife with their two younger children got into a confrontation with one cell phone wannabe user when one of their children was knocked to the ground as he pushed to the front to ask the Docent about reception. As this was occurring an early 20's couple was shoved by a different cell ph wanna have reception teen PIG with the man getting in her face. Cell ph reception drug of choice mob mentality! The Docent and several of us quieted folks down somewhat. As soon as we did this a 30 something Zombie woman came crashing in almost falling down on her face(she scraped her knee badly) interrupting the polite conversations we were having demanding cell ph reception. This happened about a dozen times in the span of 12-15 minutes.


NO matter what was politely told and shared with the mobile computer reception disconnected ADDICTS, they all, with the exception of one 19 yr old, went off highly agitated, disrespectful, impolite, self absorbed, some using profanity, with limited focus on accomplishing one task - getting their fix, getting their dopamine rush.



Now, we're going to say "mind your mobile computer usage?" That comment ignores the nature and power addiction and ingrained habits can have.


Addiction is a brain disorder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_disorder) characterized by compulsive engagement in rewarding (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reward_system) stimuli despite adverse consequences.


These devices we use(me included in the we!) are powerful stimuli that can lead to compulsive engagement where we become conditioned Pavlov's dogs.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Dogwood, you are replying to your own compulsive engagement. Beware of adverse consequences. ;) :D

[RangerZ]

Nothing wrong with carrying electronic devices, IMHO.
It only comes down to how you're using it.

For my kind of hikes, a smartphone running a GPS app basically is a godsend. It replaces a huge load of paper I had to carry earlier, plus gives me way better accuracy and much more information, not to speak about all the other travel-specific goodies a smartphone can provde, like managing flights etc.
But then, I well remember my first few years of hiking with a smartphone when every time I started to get tired I more and more pulled out the device to follow my progress, just to get more and more frustrated about my slow going. I basically had to learn how to make good use of the smartphone while avoiding all the typical pitfalls of over-using it.
I believe I'm ready now to handle it properly, and don't see any bad in carrying and using it.


+1 on breaking yourself of looking at your phone too often. I’ve ‘matured’ to the point of figuring out when I’ll get to my daily destination, then avoiding the phone all day (except maybe for pictures). The water, road, shelter, etc has been there for years and will still be there when you get there.

[Puddlefish]

There was a young female Adirondack Park Docent, about 18-19 yrs old, in uniform, engaged in light conversation speaking about the Nature and protections of Adirondak Park to about 25 people of different ages, ethnicities, colors, economic status, gender identities, political stances, etc standing in a semi circle around her. We were people of many persuasions, all having a delightful, cordial, and mutually respectful give and take - an actual in person polite discussion. NONE of us had faces glued to a Fartph. What made it difficult for all were constant rude self absorbed indifferent cold unfeeling impolite pushiness from those wanting her to immediately answer where cell reception was available. One husband and wife with their two younger children got into a confrontation with one cell phone wannabe user when one of their children was knocked to the ground as he pushed to the front to ask the Docent about reception. As this was occurring an early 20's couple was shoved by a different cell ph wanna have reception teen PIG with the man getting in her face. Cell ph reception drug of choice mob mentality! The Docent and several of us quieted folks down somewhat. As soon as we did this a 30 something Zombie woman came crashing in almost falling down on her face(she scraped her knee badly) interrupting the polite conversations we were having demanding cell ph reception. This happened about a dozen times in the span of 12-15 minutes.


NO matter what was politely told and shared with the mobile computer reception disconnected ADDICTS, they all, with the exception of one 19 yr old, went off highly agitated, disrespectful, impolite, self absorbed, some using profanity, with limited focus on accomplishing one task - getting their fix, getting their dopamine rush.



Now, we're going to say "mind your mobile computer usage?" That comment ignores the nature and power addiction and ingrained habits can have.


Addiction is a brain disorder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_disorder) characterized by compulsive engagement in rewarding (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reward_system) stimuli despite adverse consequences.


These devices we use(me included in the we!) are powerful stimuli that can lead to compulsive engagement where we become conditioned Pavlov's dogs.
Says the guy with 17,000 posts on a single internet forum.

A lot of your examples are a general concern with world population. You're talking about easily accessed areas by the general public. Of course they're more crowded, of course they have more problems, simply as result of population. Those places will have more problems with waste disposal, with drunken people, with loud people, with pushy people, with littering people, with selfish people... and yes, more problems with cell phone users as well.

You're fixating on the wrong issue, to the wrong population. Not one of those pushy people on that mountaintop were part of the White Blaze community. Here, on this forum it's sufficient say "Hike your own hike, with the caveat that you don't make anyone else hike your hike." It's sufficient to say to White Blaze forum members, "Hey, this thing happened, can you try to be more considerate of others?"

No one is suggesting that addictions are simple things to cure, no one. It's disingenuous to suggest that anyone here proposed that "watch your electronics usage" as a cure for electronics addiction.

... also, are you intentionally visiting the most touristy places, and then complaining that they have all the touristy problems? The most popular state park in southern NH, is a decent place overall, but the beach on the lake is a hellish mess, crowded, aggressive beach spreaders, unattended children, litter, it gets closed down quite often for ecoli counts in the water. I avoid the place. Just like I avoid AT shelters next to the road in populous areas.

[Dogwood]

Yeah, says the guy who also said: :)

These devices we use(me included in the we!) are powerful stimuli that can lead to compulsive engagement where we become conditioned Pavlov's dogs.


...just as I'm a paper map addict with 17K WB BS blog posts.


I hike to detox, that includes from digital and other societal norms.


Does that sound like someone ignoring their own trail behavior? :-? :)

Personally, openly, I'm not disillusioned assuming my personal behavior is defined by always making the ideal decision. I have more shart on the tips of my shoes from putting my own foot up my arse I could start a sewage treatment plant.


There's a freedom that comes with sobriety. Denial is a self imposed cage that impacts not only ourselves. We all hide behind facades.


I get it though. Having meaningful constructive discussion about owning personal behavior the facades come up. We don't want to be vulnerable. We most often rather point out other people having their impacts than examining our own.

[Tipi Walter]

I hike to detox, that includes from digital and other societal norms.


That's really all that needs to be said. While at home in a house I throw in the towel and realize the bittersweet curse of modernity---but when I'm out backpacking I go out to DETOX from home electricity and the home laptop and the online community and all things INTERNET and of course the detested Television (Tele-Derision??) and hot showers and microwaves and a bunch of other stuff.

And since I don't own a smartphone you'll never see me backpacking with such a device as I don't want to get online EVER when I'm out. And I also happen to have an intimate attachment to paper topo maps.

[perdidochas]

This equals "I'm only responsible to myself."


I'm going to do as I like to do too! Keg party at Perdidocha's living room tonight. We'll all be tenting on your property and taking dirty baths in your swimming pool. Make sure to have your credit card ready to pay for the alcohol and my new DCF shelter. I'll take one of those new BA $1000 Tiger Walls! Order those 20 pizzas ahead of time. 5 veggie specials with roasted eggplant, organic goat Gouda and artichokes. Dont skimp on the artichokes! Pay for extra ya cheapskate. We'll be taking your credit card for that too. And, make sure they're hot when we all arrive and the Heiny kegs and Grey Goose are well chilled.:p
Love the way you took my simple statement to the absurd level. Just shows you don't really like the idea of people hiking their own hike. If we aren't like you, I guess we are automatically wrong. You are very dogmatic.

[perdidochas]

To an extent. Apps like Guthooks have destroyed the adventurous aspect of thru-hiking. Now everyone can just look at their phone and know where every water spot is, tent spot, what every town is like before they get there, where the cool things are, know what each shelter will be like, etc... There's no hidden gems anymore. No mystery. No discovery. Even if you don't use those apps, you'll constantly hear from people that do. It also causes nice spots to become over-crowded as everyone ends up going to the same locations.
Do the print guides not do the same things? Not everybody's view of adventure is the same.

[The Old Chief]

Is there too much technology on the Southern part of the AT right now? Yes. Maine? Not so much. I guarantee that if you hike the AT in Virginia during July or August you won't see much technology except your own. During hikes of the AT in 2001 and 2002 I saw plenty of the technology of that time but there wasn't nary a smart phone to be seen. And plenty of people on this forum complained plenty about that technology. Hiking poles were going to destroy every basketball sized rock on the AT with all the scratches they were putting on them. Oh, the horror, as it was predicted that all these granite rocks were going to be whittled down to nothing in just a few years by the onslaught of those hikers stupid enough to use hiking poles. Looked at the tips of your hiking poles recently? The rocks are winning! The technology of Wingfoot's guidebook was a god send back then but I doubt anyone on this forum would use such a primitive tool these days. One of the most advanced tools in 2001 and 02 was the pay phone in each trail town. We stood in long lines for an hour or so to call our loved ones at home for a few minutes. I can't imagine why we don't all want to go back those days. Picture taking? Most hikers used a film camera and we had to haul around extra rolls of film. We never got to see the pictures we took until we left the trail and we never took more than one picture of a scene because we only had so many pictures we could take. I use my smart phone as a tool just as I have used other instruments in past years as tools. No more, no less.

You want to know what really annoys me? One of those hikers with a backpack guitar!!! The last thing I want to listen to in the wilderness is someone trying to learn how to play one of those out of tune pieces of garbage. And if they do happen to know how to play their precious guitar, they never sing a song anyone would want to hear (like a good country or bluegrass song) but some song you've never heard of before about a leaf in a river floating gently to the ocean.

[lonehiker]

Is there too much technology on the Southern part of the AT right now? Yes. Maine? Not so much. I guarantee that if you hike the AT in Virginia during July or August you won't see much technology except your own. During hikes of the AT in 2001 and 2002 I saw plenty of the technology of that time but there wasn't nary a smart phone to be seen. And plenty of people on this forum complained plenty about that technology. Hiking poles were going to destroy every basketball sized rock on the AT with all the scratches they were putting on them. Oh, the horror, as it was predicted that all these granite rocks were going to be whittled down to nothing in just a few years by the onslaught of those hikers stupid enough to use hiking poles. Looked at the tips of your hiking poles recently? The rocks are winning! The technology of Wingfoot's guidebook was a god send back then but I doubt anyone on this forum would use such a primitive tool these days. One of the most advanced tools in 2001 and 02 was the pay phone in each trail town. We stood in long lines for an hour or so to call our loved ones at home for a few minutes. I can't imagine why we don't all want to go back those days. Picture taking? Most hikers used a film camera and we had to haul around extra rolls of film. We never got to see the pictures we took until we left the trail and we never took more than one picture of a scene because we only had so many pictures we could take. I use my smart phone as a tool just as I have used other instruments in past years as tools. No more, no less.

You want to know what really annoys me? One of those hikers with a backpack guitar!!! The last thing I want to listen to in the wilderness is someone trying to learn how to play one of those out of tune pieces of garbage. And if they do happen to know how to play their precious guitar, they never sing a song anyone would want to hear (like a good country or bluegrass song) but some song you've never heard of before about a leaf in a river floating gently to the ocean.

I would probably like this guy if I met him in person.

[greenmtnboy]

I like all the old ways of doing things. The newer "smartphones" are a detour and a dead end IMO.

You can't go too far wrong with natural, healthy and traditional.

[gpburdelljr]

I’ve got better things to do than worry about if someone is using a smart phone on the trail.

[Feral Bill]

Do the print guides not do the same things? Not everybody's view of adventure is the same. Colin Fletcher despised guide books for this very reason.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Colin Fletcher despised guide books for this very reason.He also loved corduroy shorts. Should we emulate that idiosyncrasy as well? Just to "be like Colin"?

Can you imagine the sound of 1000's of corduroy clad thru-hiker thighs rubbing together?

"Is it a 17 year Cicada hatch?"
"No, it's just thru-hiker season again."

[Feral Bill]

He also loved corduroy shorts. Should we emulate that idiosyncrasy as well? Just to "be like Colin"?

Can you imagine the sound of 1000's of corduroy clad thru-hiker thighs rubbing together?

"Is it a 17 year Cicada hatch?"
"No, it's just thru-hiker season again." That would be hilarious.

[Traveler]

He also loved corduroy shorts. Should we emulate that idiosyncrasy as well? Just to "be like Colin"?

Can you imagine the sound of 1000's of corduroy clad thru-hiker thighs rubbing together?

"Is it a 17 year Cicada hatch?"
"No, it's just thru-hiker season again."

<zip zwup zip zwup zip zwup> "hey kid, turn that phone down"

"What? Can't hear you over the shorts"

[greenmtnboy]

There was a young female Adirondack Park Docent, about 18-19 yrs old, in uniform, engaged in light conversation speaking about the Nature and protections of Adirondak Park to about 25 people of different ages, ethnicities, colors, economic status, gender identities, political stances, etc standing in a semi circle around her. We were people of many persuasions, all having a delightful, cordial, and mutually respectful give and take - an actual in person polite discussion. NONE of us had faces glued to a Fartph. What made it difficult for all were constant rude self absorbed indifferent cold unfeeling impolite pushiness from those wanting her to immediately answer where cell reception was available. One husband and wife with their two younger children got into a confrontation with one cell phone wannabe user when one of their children was knocked to the ground as he pushed to the front to ask the Docent about reception. As this was occurring an early 20's couple was shoved by a different cell ph wanna have reception teen PIG with the man getting in her face. Cell ph reception drug of choice mob mentality! The Docent and several of us quieted folks down somewhat. As soon as we did this a 30 something Zombie woman came crashing in almost falling down on her face(she scraped her knee badly) interrupting the polite conversations we were having demanding cell ph reception. This happened about a dozen times in the span of 12-15 minutes.


NO matter what was politely told and shared with the mobile computer reception disconnected ADDICTS, they all, with the exception of one 19 yr old, went off highly agitated, disrespectful, impolite, self absorbed, some using profanity, with limited focus on accomplishing one task - getting their fix, getting their dopamine rush.



Now, we're going to say "mind your mobile computer usage?" That comment ignores the nature and power addiction and ingrained habits can have.


Addiction is a brain disorder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_disorder) characterized by compulsive engagement in rewarding (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reward_system) stimuli despite adverse consequences.


These devices we use(me included in the we!) are powerful stimuli that can lead to compulsive engagement where we become conditioned Pavlov's dogs.
That's pretty outrageous. There should be a law enforcement solution to such rudeness. it's too bad that on land that was privately gifted some donors didn't write into the conditions that there be no distracting electronic devices used on the land they gave. They could have new rules or have devices to white out reception like a lot of schools do with interference devices. Overuse and addiction to devices is a major mental health issue.

[Gambit McCrae]

Other peoples tech doesn't bother me on the trail. What bothers me is when some jackwagon has his BT speaker blasting for the whole world to hear is hippity hop music. I don't wanna hear it and neither does anyone else. Get ear buds.

[JoshMcR]

Do the print guides not do the same things? Not everybody's view of adventure is the same.

Not as much. Print guides don't show you pictures of every water source or every shelter. They don't let you read other people's comments about a place. I also think guide books are over used.

[Dogwood]

Love the way you took my simple statement to the absurd level. Just shows you don't really like the idea of people hiking their own hike. If we aren't like you, I guess we are automatically wrong. You are very dogmatic.

Hiding behind HYOH to justify doing anything one wants absent of consciousness for Nature, trail communities, and others is fashionable for the narcissistic self absorbed.

[CalebJ]

Come on, Dogwood - do you really think he meant 'anything one wants' as opposed to things that have no real bearing on others?

[rickb]

Hiding behind HYOH to justify doing anything one wants absent of consciousness for Nature, trail communities, and others is fashionable for the narcissistic self absorbed.
In the age of connectivity many — including me — often fail to live up to the HYOH standard.

Rather, we HOEH (hike our employer’s hikes).

This sucks, of course.

Sucks even more for some of our hiking partners who may not notice it when we pull out our phones to check email or Tesla stock when walking behind them (I know I am not the only one to do this) but who are no less impacted for not being with our true “outdoor selves” during such special times together.

There is another way — impossible to cure others, hard enough to cure oneself.

Is there a 12 step program?

[Dogwood]

Two yrs ago on a PCT LASH 3 out of every 10 PCT thru hikers while on trail were walking while their faces were buried in Fartphones. Began asking what they were engaged. When I could get an answer, 70% of the time it was digital social media, a lot taking selfies, ...not navigation, checking weather reports, trail logistics, getting ride to resupply, or sending that all important eMail to family about their location, they weren't eaten by a bear or bitten by a snake, abducted, or what was in their GORP or MH dinner they were having tonight. They were not working from trail.

At Crater Lake NP 22 PCT thrus were doing their resupply with all but 3 on their FartPhones. Some were bumping rudely into each other including other CL NP visitors. Some had badly cut knees and leg road rashes. I asked, "what happened?" Half the time it was because they fell while walking on their FartPhones. Two young vacuous 20 yrs old female thrus with knee abrasions laughed recounting how they had bumped into each both taking spills while walking with faces planted in their phones. One had gashed her elbow too and damaged her ZP pack and was awaiting replacement parts to be mailed. A mid 20 something yr old had facial abrasions including a nasty gash on the tip of his nose. He too had fallen while walking while on his Fart Phone.

Now all three states the PCT visits have legalized. Two yrs ago, before Cali legalized, 6-7 out of every 10 PCT thrus were carrying and imbibing regularly. Where might this be leading? Texting while intoxicated while backpacking?


I'm a numbers and sociology guy. I like to note trends.

[Dogwood]

Come on, Dogwood - do you really think he meant 'anything one wants' as opposed to things that have no real bearing on others?

Does fart ph use truly have no bearing on others? Did you read what others and myself experienced on Mt Marcy? Read about what was witnessed at Crater Lake NP among PCT thrus and other CL NP visitors. Usage can clearly negatively impact others.


HYOH is often used in defense of narcissistic personal behavior/self entitlement and excessive self love - narcissism - even if it negatively impacts others. If it makes you happy, and only you happy, do it. We certainly can have personal happiness while also being conscientious of other's happiness? We do NOT live and backpack as islands!

[4eyedbuzzard]

Two yrs ago on a PCT LASH 3 out of every 10 PCT thru hikers while on trail were walking while their faces were buried in Fartphones. Began asking what they were engaged. When I could get an answer, 70% of the time it was digital social media, a lot taking selfies, ...not navigation, checking weather reports, trail logistics, getting ride to resupply, or sending that all important eMail to family about their location, they weren't eaten by a bear or bitten by a snake, abducted, or what was in their GORP or MH dinner they were having tonight. They were not working from trail.

At Crater Lake NP 22 PCT thrus were doing their resupply with all but 3 on their FartPhones. Some were bumping rudely into each other including other CL NP visitors. Some had badly cut knees and leg road rashes. I asked, "what happened?" Half the time it was because they fell while walking on their FartPhones. Two young vacuous 20 yrs old female thrus with knee abrasions laughed recounting how they had bumped into each both taking spills while walking with faces planted in their phones. One had gashed her elbow too and damaged her ZP pack and was awaiting replacement parts to be mailed. A mid 20 something yr old had facial abrasions including a nasty gash on the tip of his nose. He too had fallen while walking while on his Fart Phone.

Now all three states the PCT visits have legalized. Two yrs ago, before Cali legalized, 6-7 out of every 10 PCT thrus were carrying and imbibing regularly. Where might this be leading? Texting while intoxicated while backpacking?


I'm a numbers and sociology guy. I like to note trends.Hmm, yeah, not paying attention to the activity at hand can lead to injury. Even without partaking of head wax or being impaired by any electronic device, the worst falls I've ever had skiing were at the bottom of the hill while distracted by the scenery. Spandex can be dangerous too. :cool: :D

[MuddyWaters]

Two yrs ago on a PCT LASH 3 out of every 10 PCT thru hikers while on trail were walking while their faces were buried in Fartphones. Began asking what they were engaged. When I could get an answer, 70% of the time it was digital social media, a lot taking selfies, ...not navigation, checking weather reports, trail logistics, getting ride to resupply, or sending that all important eMail to family about their location, they weren't eaten by a bear or bitten by a snake, abducted, or what was in their GORP or MH dinner they were having tonight. They were not working from trail.
.
It 75% of what most of them do at work too
Or at home

A lost generation

[Rain Man]

A lost generation

Any idea how many "lost generations" there have been? ;)

[MuddyWaters]

Any idea how many "lost generations" there have been? ;)

Nothing like this

Get ready for great grandkids to speak chinese

[4eyedbuzzard]

Any idea how many "lost generations" there have been? ;)Every one of them. Well, except mine. ;)

[cmoulder]

If you don't want to use it, leave it at home. Otherwise, what other people choose to/not to use is their choice to make.
Likewise, I don't give a royal flying purple rat's a$$ if people are glued to their phones or carrying 85lb packs. If they fall off a cliff while taking a selfie (https://ktla.com/2019/04/04/man-killed-in-fall-at-grand-canyon-marking-3rd-death-in-8-days/), so be it.

[CalebJ]

Does fart ph use truly have no bearing on others? Did you read what others and myself experienced on Mt Marcy? Read about what was witnessed at Crater Lake NP among PCT thrus and other CL NP visitors. Usage can clearly negatively impact others.


HYOH is often used in defense of narcissistic personal behavior/self entitlement and excessive self love - narcissism - even if it negatively impacts others. If it makes you happy, and only you happy, do it. We certainly can have personal happiness while also being conscientious of other's happiness? We do NOT live and backpack as islands!
Unless I've missed something, nobody -in this thread- is defending the behavior that you describe. When you're making choices that actively interfere with others it becomes a completely different conversation. My point regarding HYOH is simply to not let others individual elections (using a phone as a camera/navigational resource, etc) affect your enjoyment when they're not actively jarring your experience. Being rude, listening to music aloud, etc are things that could, of course, actively effect you and I wouldn't tolerate them well either.

[daddytwosticks]

Nothing like this

Get ready for great grandkids to speak chinese

...and eat Tide Pods for lunch. :)

[Dogwood]

Unless I've missed something, nobody -in this thread- is defending the behavior that you describe. When you're making choices that actively interfere with others it becomes a completely different conversation. My point regarding HYOH is simply to not let others individual elections (using a phone as a camera/navigational resource, etc) affect your enjoyment when they're not actively jarring your experience. Being rude, listening to music aloud, etc are things that could, of course, actively effect you and I wouldn't tolerate them well either.

No problem with that either. ;) HYOH - as long as you're not being an "only responsible to self" shthead.


None of us hike in an alienated bubble. We're always impacting something to some extent. When we assume we're alienated hiking within a bubble, self absorbed, "only responsible to self" we assume we're at the center of the Universe, that it's here to beckon to our every desire and need. That's when the sounds of walking on roads constructed of crushed skulls reaches a crescendo.

[greenmtnboy]

For me the technology explosion would be on the top list of jerkishness that this youtube top hiking poster discussed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejZCgy-_NOw&t=44s

[Dogwood]

Love the way Dixie says "barat wight light." She's my nieces's twin.

[Whack-a-mole]

Did a couple sections south of Damascus last week. Since I was sobo, I was passing a good many nobos during the day. Since I’m a little older, I don’t mind stepping aside to let people by. Gives me a good opportunity to catch my breath. I noticed a couple things that were different from trips in the past. 30% of the folks would stop for a moment to exchange pleasantries. It was very nice. 30% of the people would keep walking, but thank me for stepping off, and offering a pleasant greeting. It was very nice, but the last group were people who wouldn’t even look at you, wouldn’t even acknowledge your existence. They had their earbuds in, and wouldn’t give you the time of day, or even say thank you for getting out of their way. Almost everyone of these was from the “younger” generation. I hate to say it, but it was a little disappointing to see. Is this related to technology, all they wanted was their music? I don’t know. To the people on Iron Mtn who were nice, Thank You!

[MuddyWaters]

Did a couple sections south of Damascus last week. Since I was sobo, I was passing a good many nobos during the day. Since I’m a little older, I don’t mind stepping aside to let people by. Gives me a good opportunity to catch my breath. I noticed a couple things that were different from trips in the past. 30% of the folks would stop for a moment to exchange pleasantries. It was very nice. 30% of the people would keep walking, but thank me for stepping off, and offering a pleasant greeting. It was very nice, but the last group were people who wouldn’t even look at you, wouldn’t even acknowledge your existence. They had their earbuds in, and wouldn’t give you the time of day, or even say thank you for getting out of their way. Almost everyone of these was from the “younger” generation. I hate to say it, but it was a little disappointing to see. Is this related to technology, all they wanted was their music? I don’t know. To the people on Iron Mtn who were nice, Thank You!
Earbuds arent really technology

But they are a good way to communicate to others that you find being in outdoors too boring and dont like it.

[rickb]

This topic has probably been raised before on this Forum. Nonetheless, I think it’s good to continue the discussion. People love gadgets, especially men. I’m probably in the minority, but I feel there’s too much gadgetry on the trail these days. Unless one hikes as an athletic pursuit (for a challenge, for fitness, etc.), the whole idea of a mountain hike is about getting out and enjoying nature, and separating oneself from the artificiality and cushy conveniences of urban/suburban society. Isn’t it? If so, why are so many people dragging the digital revolution onto the trail? Don’t devices like handheld computers (iPhones) and various “apps” compromise the back-to-nature experience? Some things are essential, I realize. Manmade tents, sleeping bags, stoves, matches, etc. And cameras and non-computerized phones are convenient. But have we gone too far? Have we “over-safety’ed” and “over-convenienced” ourselves?

Would love to see how many people, if any, agree with me.



Probably just human nature, but I do find it interesting that the primary focus of a thread like this quickly becomes:



Do other people bring too much technology to the Trail, and do so in an inappropriate and disrespeful way?


Rather than:



Are we ourselves bringing too much technology on our own hikes, and paying a personal price for that choice?


To my way of thinking, the second question is more important — albeit without the opportunities to virtue signal in a lovely online discusion.

[Traveler]

Earbuds arent really technology

But they are a good way to communicate to others that you find being in outdoors too boring and dont like it.
Also a great defense for chatty passers by....

[4eyedbuzzard]

Earbuds arent really technology

But they are a good way to communicate to others that you find being in outdoors too boring and dont like it.Or that they are respectful enough of others "space" and use them so as no to disturb other people's experience. I don't listen to music every waking minute, but there are a lot of people who do. Not my thing. And it's not that I hate music (unless it's Christmas music starting at Halloween), it's just that I don't need it 24/7. If someone's that addicted to musical stimulus though, I'd rather they use earbuds than one of those mini Bluetooth speakers.

[carouselambra]

Technology has its place. Last Saturday night it was pretty sweet to listen to the UVA-Auburn Final Four game at our campsite. I was able to stream it on the phone and our campsite was away from the shelter so we were not bothering anyone else. As a matter of fact, the folks at the shelter were listening to it as well.

Backpacking Hack: Sticking the end of your cellphone into a Jetboil MiniMo pot turned on its side will amplify your sound to just the right level.

[Hikingjim]

Did a couple sections south of Damascus last week. Since I was sobo, I was passing a good many nobos during the day. Since I’m a little older, I don’t mind stepping aside to let people by. Gives me a good opportunity to catch my breath. I noticed a couple things that were different from trips in the past. 30% of the folks would stop for a moment to exchange pleasantries. It was very nice. 30% of the people would keep walking, but thank me for stepping off, and offering a pleasant greeting. It was very nice, but the last group were people who wouldn’t even look at you, wouldn’t even acknowledge your existence. They had their earbuds in, and wouldn’t give you the time of day, or even say thank you for getting out of their way. Almost everyone of these was from the “younger” generation. I hate to say it, but it was a little disappointing to see. Is this related to technology, all they wanted was their music? I don’t know. To the people on Iron Mtn who were nice, Thank You!
I have noted this as well. In fairness, some of it may be due to increased volume of people on the trail. Even locally, when I go to a trail that has a ton of people on it, I don't want to say hello to 500 people in a day when I'm just trying to enjoy a tiny bit of nature and a good walk.
If hikers haven't seen anyone in quite awhile, they are much more likely to want to chat a bit
I'm sure self-absorption is a big part of it though

[Puddlefish]

Earbuds arent really technology

But they are a good way to communicate to others that you find being in outdoors too boring and dont like it.

I get catchy songs stuck in my head, with our without the earbuds. It's just the way my brain is wired. I'm also a terrible singer. Hiking through Georgia, my music player died, and my brain filled in catchy tunes. Every few minutes I hiked by buttercups springing up in their little buttercup glory... and my brain immediately clicked into

Why do you build me up (build me up) buttercup, baby
Just to let me down (let me down) and mess me around?
And then worst of all (worst of all) you never call, baby
When you say you will (say you will) but I love you still
I need you (I need you) more than anyone, darlin'
You know that I have from the start
So build me up (build me up) buttercup, don't break my heart!

Except I don't really know all the words, so it was more like...

Why do you fill me up (fill me up) buttercup, baby (no that's not right, what is it? Oh yeah, build me up!)
Just to let me down (let me down) and blah blah blah blah?
And then worst of all (worst of all) you never call, baby
When you say you will (say you will) but I love you still
I need you (I need you) more than anyone, darlin'
You know that I something something
So fill me up (no make that) (build me up) buttercup, don't break my heart

... and just because no one was around, I'd sing the words I know... which had to be ugly for the folks on the other side of hills. After a week of this I was ready to stab The Foundations.

So no Muddy, you're just wrong. I wear earbuds to protect other people from my singing of the wrong lyrics, and to keep sane.

I'd be interested in you telling me what exactly should be running through my brain as I hike. Do you have any correct suggestions? Am I allowed to daydream? If so, about what, or is daydreaming against your very specific code of appreciating nature properly?

Seriously, I can't imagine the level of control freakishness that would lead someone to tell another person that the guy with earbuds doesn't appreciate nature.

Edit: font size issues.

[MuddyWaters]

I get catchy songs stuck in my head, with our without the earbuds. It's just the way my brain is wired. I'm also a terrible singer. Hiking through Georgia, my music player died, and my brain filled in catchy tunes. Every few minutes I hiked by buttercups springing up in their little buttercup glory... and my brain immediately clicked into

Why do you build me up (build me up) buttercup, baby
Just to let me down (let me down) and mess me around?
And then worst of all (worst of all) you never call, baby
When you say you will (say you will) but I love you still
I need you (I need you) more than anyone, darlin'
You know that I have from the start
So build me up (build me up) buttercup, don't break my heart!

Except I don't really know all the words, so it was more like...

Why do you fill me up (fill me up) buttercup, baby (no that's not right, what is it? Oh yeah, build me up!)
Just to let me down (let me down) and blah blah blah blah?
And then worst of all (worst of all) you never call, baby
When you say you will (say you will) but I love you still
I need you (I need you) more than anyone, darlin'
You know that I something something
So fill me up (no make that) (build me up) buttercup, don't break my heart

... and just because no one was around, I'd sing the words I know... which had to be ugly for the folks on the other side of hills. After a week of this I was ready to stab The Foundations.

So no Muddy, you're just wrong. I wear earbuds to protect other people from my singing of the wrong lyrics, and to keep sane.

I'd be interested in you telling me what exactly should be running through my brain as I hike. Do you have any correct suggestions? Am I allowed to daydream? If so, about what, or is daydreaming against your very specific code of appreciating nature properly?

Seriously, I can't imagine the level of control freakishness that would lead someone to tell another person that the guy with earbuds doesn't appreciate nature.

Edit: font size issues.
You have poor comprehension skills.

I dont give a rats arse what someone else does
Nor did i say anyone didnt enjoy nature, or at least their version of it.

I said they listened to music because hiking is too boring too them without it .

And thats a fact

They listen to music, audio books, sports, whatever to pass the the time, because being in woods itself.....isnt enough.


Yes hiking gets monotonous 10 hrs per day, everyday. Trees, rocks, roots generally all look same.

[Puddlefish]

You have poor comprehension skills.

I dont give a rats arse what someone else does
Nor did i say anyone didnt enjoy nature, or at least their version of it.

I said they listened to music because hiking is too boring too them without it .

And thats a fact

They listen to music, audio books, sports, whatever to pass the the time, because being in woods itself.....isnt enough.

You have poor logic skills. I could say that you spend time at the computer, because you don't like being in the outdoors enough, you post on message boards because being in the woods isn't enough. It would be untrue. Just like your statement that I listen to music because hiking is too boring without it is untrue. It's an invalid assumption, because it assumes that's there's only one way to properly enjoy the outdoors.

It's a crappy gatekeeping attitude. It's you deciding, based on your experience, that your experience is more pure, is better than someone else's way of doing things. I comprehend exactly what you said. You don't give a rats ass, but you still feel the need to demean those who do it differently than you do.

[Tipi Walter]

I said they listened to music because hiking is too boring too them without it .
They listen to music, audio books, sports, whatever to pass the the time, because being in woods itself.....isnt enough.
Yes hiking gets monotonous 10 hrs per day, everyday. Trees, rocks, roots generally all look same.

I wear headhones with my radio when I'm roadwalking long stretches and I don't want to hear motorcycles and cars.

But wearing ear buds or head pods or headphones or whatever else on a backpacking trail between April to November IS STUPID for one simple reason--

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/20-Days-on-Medicare/i-tDdjhTv/0/6bd128eb/XL/TRIP%20166%20450-XL.jpg

This guy was right on the trail. They call them Rattle Snakes for a reason---so listen for the rattle---and not some crap coming thru your headbuds.

To do so is exactly like texting while driving---distraction can be a killer.

[TNhiker]

To do so is exactly like texting while driving---distraction can be a killer.




and yet-----at least in the southeast, not one hiker had been killed by a snake while wearing headphones...

sure, it could happen.........but it hasnt happened yet.......

[Tipi Walter]

and yet-----at least in the southeast, not one hiker had been killed by a snake while wearing headphones...

sure, it could happen.........but it hasnt happened yet.......

But what about the ones who got bit but didn't die??

I guess I'm lucky because I've seen (and heard) dozens of rattlesnakes in the last several years---backpacking on trails in TN/NC and Georgia.

Is is smart to listen to music while hiking thru their territory? No it is not.

[TNhiker]

But what about the ones who got bit but didn't die??




can you provide proof of someone that has been bitten by a snake while wearing headphones?




Is is smart to listen to music while hiking thru their territory? No it is not.



thats your way..........if someone else wants to wear headphones while hiking, it should be their decision and not yours.


also---keep in mind-----people that have limited hearing and/or are deaf, are hikers as well......

[Tipi Walter]

It's hard to believe that this could be debated at all in rattlesnake country.

[TNhiker]

It's hard to believe that this could be debated at all in rattlesnake country.




well.......

more people have been killed by snakes while attending church than in the woods.......

[CalebJ]

It does seem like we're creating an imaginary problem to make a point.

[MuddyWaters]

You have poor logic skills. I could say that you spend time at the computer, because you don't like being in the outdoors enough, you post on message boards because being in the woods isn't enough. It would be untrue. Just like your statement that I listen to music because hiking is too boring without it is untrue. It's an invalid assumption, because it assumes that's there's only one way to properly enjoy the outdoors.

It's a crappy gatekeeping attitude. It's you deciding, based on your experience, that your experience is more pure, is better than someone else's way of doing things. I comprehend exactly what you said. You don't give a rats ass, but you still feel the need to demean those who do it differently than you do.

Im not demeaning anyone
Simply stating reality.

If someone listens to other things in woods
Its because they would rather do that, than not. This is irrefutable. They arent doing something against their will.


If that in itself is demeaning to realize, so be it. Your interpretation, not mine. Dont put your thoughts in my mouth.

If you notice, im not arguing to not wear headphones, or even giving a reason not to, or suggesting what to think about those that do

just stating reality....if you listen to something else out there....its because you prefer to. People can have their own opinions about it .

[Dogwood]

Probably just human nature, but I do find it interesting that the primary focus of a thread like this quickly becomes:



Do other people bring too much technology to the Trail, and do so in an inappropriate and disrespeful way?


Rather than:



Are we ourselves bringing too much technology on our own hikes, and paying a personal price for that choice?


To my way of thinking, the second question is more important — albeit without the opportunities to virtue signal in a lovely online discusion.

Whada diz wertree cignull?


All quite on the WB front.

[Tipi Walter]

It does seem like we're creating an imaginary problem to make a point.

Here's a quote from a Rattlesnake website---regarding hiking---It's from Arizona Hikers' Guide to Rattlesnakes Safety---See it here---

https://rattlesnakesolutions.com/snakeblog/science-and-education/arizona-hikers-guide-to-rattlesnake-safety/

5. Don’t wear headphones when you hike.


Rattlesnakes have a really great feature that does a great job keeping us from stepping on them – the rattle. When you get too close to a wary rattlesnake, it sounds off to let you know that you’re getting too close. As scary as it might seem when this happens, the result of you going one way and the snake going the other is how that’s supposed to work; that’s the system working.

How do you ruin a good thing? Replace the sounds of birds and wind winding through desert canyons with the same sounds you listen to while stuck in traffic. When you have headphones on, you’re opting out of the built-in safety features generously maintained by rattlesnakes. Even worse, if you’re blasting music for all to hear, you’re not only facing the danger of “silent” rattlesnakes, but from me throwing rocks at you.

And just because this comes from Arizona does not mean we don't have scores of rattlesnakes in our Southeastern mountains. In fact, I'm seeing more rattlesnakes from year to year---and they are on established backpacking trails.

[Puddlefish]

People all too often draw arbitrary lines in the sand, call one side good, and the other side bad, based on where they're standing at the moment.

People who hike faster than me, don't really enjoy the outdoors, because they're going too fast to take it in properly. Fact.
People who hike slower than me, don't really enjoy the outdoors, because they're going too slow to see much of it. Fact.

People who stay in stealth camp don't really enjoy the trail experience, because they miss out on all the neat people. Fact
People who stay in shelters don't really enjoy the trail experience, because shelters are noisy and filthy. Fact.

People who wear brimmed hats, don't really enjoy hiking, because they miss out on 20% of the view upwards. That's 20% less of nature they enjoy. Fact.
People who wear shoes/boots/footwear, don't really enjoy the outdoors. They miss the tactile sensation of feeling the trail under their feet. Fact.
People who wear sunglasses, don't really enjoy the outdoors, as they see a reduced spectrum of light. Fact.
People who use bugspray, don't really embrace the outdoor experience, as ticks and illness are an important part of nature. Fact.
People who use earbuds, don't really enjoy the outdoors. Fact.

Old people who wake early, and rudely speak at full volume when I'm trying to sleep, are the bane of my existence. Fact.
Young people, who stay up late, and rudely make noise while I'm trying to sleep, are the bane of my existence. Fact.


All of these "facts" are seriously flawed and require a great deal of your own perspective to process. They all rely greatly on your personal interpretation of what enjoying nature consists of. We all draw the lines in the sand, at slightly different spots. We hike, camp, tent, backpack, walk, amble, run, in a way that works best for us. It's tacky to pretend someone else is "doing it wrong" because they're doing it differently. It's insulting to diminish someone else's experience, because you have a different preference and different experiences.

This is not a call for anarchy. We can hike our own hike, without intruding on anyone else's hike.

[Puddlefish]

Here's a quote from a Rattlesnake website---regarding hiking---It's from Arizona Hikers' Guide to Rattlesnakes Safety---See it here---

https://rattlesnakesolutions.com/snakeblog/science-and-education/arizona-hikers-guide-to-rattlesnake-safety/

5. Don’t wear headphones when you hike.


Rattlesnakes have a really great feature that does a great job keeping us from stepping on them – the rattle. When you get too close to a wary rattlesnake, it sounds off to let you know that you’re getting too close. As scary as it might seem when this happens, the result of you going one way and the snake going the other is how that’s supposed to work; that’s the system working.

How do you ruin a good thing? Replace the sounds of birds and wind winding through desert canyons with the same sounds you listen to while stuck in traffic. When you have headphones on, you’re opting out of the built-in safety features generously maintained by rattlesnakes. Even worse, if you’re blasting music for all to hear, you’re not only facing the danger of “silent” rattlesnakes, but from me throwing rocks at you.

And just because this comes from Arizona does not mean we don't have scores of rattlesnakes in our Southeastern mountains. In fact, I'm seeing more rattlesnakes from year to year---and they are on established backpacking trails.
I've made a great effort in life to protect my hearing. Do you imagine that I'm blasting music at full volume and can't hear other things? I can hear people coming up behind me, I can carry on a conversation, I can even hear a rattlesnake. I saw one last year sunning itself on a rock, mid trail, in NH. It was just a baby, so it was in pre-rattle form. A few people told me they saw rattlers in the morning warming themselves on campfire stones. That seems a bigger risk than just randomly in the trail.

How about just carrying on a conversation with a hiking partner on a windy day, couldn't that be just as loud as earbuds? How about just a really windy day, where the wind is whipping loudly through the trees, should we stop hiking in the wind for fear of the .0001% chance of a rattlesnake bite?

Personally, I think it's kind of sad someone is equating beautiful music to "what we listen to in traffic." I equate music to far more glorious things, past friendships, cathedrals, happy memories, and even nature. I think the author was just editorializing a bit. That said, on that trail in Arizona, yeah, I probably would leave the earbuds in the pack, and listen for rattlesnakes.

[Tipi Walter]

We hike, camp, tent, backpack, walk, amble, run, in a way that works best for us. It's tacky to pretend someone else is "doing it wrong" because they're doing it differently. It's insulting to diminish someone else's experience, because you have a different preference and different experiences.

This is not a call for anarchy. We can hike our own hike, without intruding on anyone else's hike.

A simple discussion on any facet of backpacking involves expressing differing opinions---whereby Opinions themselves become intruding on someone else's hike.

For example, if I recommend winter backpacking in full leather boots vs trail runners---that's my opinion---and my opinion only. People will then say, "Tipi Walter wants you to do it HIS way . . " when in fact I'm just expressing an opinion on gear---which most likely goes against THEIR opinion on gear. But it's called a Discussion---and yes someone's differing opinion (my differing opinion) could intrude on someone else's hike.

Without expressing our opinions---on gear, on technology, on tents or quilts or whatever else (on headphones while hiking) . . . well . . . we wouldn't have any need for this Forum.

And why would anyone even ask our opinions about Technology on the Trail if he/she doesn't want to know them?

[shelb]

I get the HYOH idea... and I am fine with it as long as it doesn't mess with MY HIKE. It is kind of the same thing in a classroom (yes, I am a teacher). If someone wants to listen to music while working/hiking, no big deal as long as others don't have to listen to it. Frequently, I have to call my kids out to turn their music down only because they have cheap earbuds, and people around them don't want to hear it. Same is true when hiking... if a person wants to listen to loud music, get quality earbuds or turn it down - please!

Me, personally, I like to deplug a bit. Yes, sometimes, I listen to music. Sometimes, I check Guthooks. Every day or two (or three), I text home to let everyone know I am fine. However, it is nice not to sit staring at my phone and feeling the need to be on social media...

[Feral Bill]

well.......

more people have been killed by snakes while attending church than in the woods....... A good reason to be in the woods, rather than in church.:)

[lonehiker]

People all too often draw arbitrary lines in the sand, call one side good, and the other side bad, based on where they're standing at the moment.

People who hike faster than me, don't really enjoy the outdoors, because they're going too fast to take it in properly. Fact.
People who hike slower than me, don't really enjoy the outdoors, because they're going too slow to see much of it. Fact.

People who stay in stealth camp don't really enjoy the trail experience, because they miss out on all the neat people. Fact
People who stay in shelters don't really enjoy the trail experience, because shelters are noisy and filthy. Fact.

People who wear brimmed hats, don't really enjoy hiking, because they miss out on 20% of the view upwards. That's 20% less of nature they enjoy. Fact.
People who wear shoes/boots/footwear, don't really enjoy the outdoors. They miss the tactile sensation of feeling the trail under their feet. Fact.
People who wear sunglasses, don't really enjoy the outdoors, as they see a reduced spectrum of light. Fact.
People who use bugspray, don't really embrace the outdoor experience, as ticks and illness are an important part of nature. Fact.
People who use earbuds, don't really enjoy the outdoors. Fact.

Old people who wake early, and rudely speak at full volume when I'm trying to sleep, are the bane of my existence. Fact.
Young people, who stay up late, and rudely make noise while I'm trying to sleep, are the bane of my existence. Fact.


All of these "facts" are seriously flawed and require a great deal of your own perspective to process. They all rely greatly on your personal interpretation of what enjoying nature consists of. We all draw the lines in the sand, at slightly different spots. We hike, camp, tent, backpack, walk, amble, run, in a way that works best for us. It's tacky to pretend someone else is "doing it wrong" because they're doing it differently. It's insulting to diminish someone else's experience, because you have a different preference and different experiences.

This is not a call for anarchy. We can hike our own hike, without intruding on anyone else's hike.

This post needs to be fact checked.

[Dogwood]

A simple discussion on any facet of backpacking involves expressing differing opinions---whereby Opinions themselves become intruding on someone else's hike.

For example, if I recommend winter backpacking in full leather boots vs trail runners---that's my opinion---and my opinion only. People will then say, "Tipi Walter wants you to do it HIS way . . " when in fact I'm just expressing an opinion on gear---which most likely goes against THEIR opinion on gear. But it's called a Discussion---and yes someone's differing opinion (my differing opinion) could intrude on someone else's hike.

Without expressing our opinions---on gear, on technology, on tents or quilts or whatever else (on headphones while hiking) . . . well . . . we wouldn't have any need for this Forum.

And why would anyone even ask our opinions about Technology on the Trail if he/she doesn't want to know them?

I'd be more willing to give you 5 mins on trail if you first offer a bribe of two avocados. Wonder if you have some extra? :D

[Puddlefish]

A simple discussion on any facet of backpacking involves expressing differing opinions---whereby Opinions themselves become intruding on someone else's hike.

For example, if I recommend winter backpacking in full leather boots vs trail runners---that's my opinion---and my opinion only. People will then say, "Tipi Walter wants you to do it HIS way . . " when in fact I'm just expressing an opinion on gear---which most likely goes against THEIR opinion on gear. But it's called a Discussion---and yes someone's differing opinion (my differing opinion) could intrude on someone else's hike.

Without expressing our opinions---on gear, on technology, on tents or quilts or whatever else (on headphones while hiking) . . . well . . . we wouldn't have any need for this Forum.

And why would anyone even ask our opinions about Technology on the Trail if he/she doesn't want to know our opinions?

I think you personally are pretty careful about stating that you have preferences, and typically leave the "moral failing if you don't agree with me," out of the equation. You state what works for you, in your circumstances. Nothing at all wrong with that. You obviously have a style that works for you, and you rightfully share those opinions. Other participants are all too eager to sneak in generational politics, and other "they're doing it wrong" aspects. Those are the people I'm addressing.

I, with my limited experience, try to be careful with my advice, stating what things work for me, and why. Just like you don't like the people who "hold court" and don't ask questions. I'm not a bit fan of those who "hold court, and gatekeep."

Gatekeeping: the activity of controlling, and usually limiting, general access to something. In effect, I find it annoying and shortsighted when someone tells me, that my experience is less valid, because I only hike two miles a day in the winter, or that I don't like the outdoors because I listen to music.

It's a hiking forum, we should be able to discuss hiking, technology, and express opinions, just like you said. We can do so in a respectful, thoughtful way way without insulting others; without conveying our opinions as facts, and putting down other people's opinions.

[Puddlefish]

This post needs to be fact checked.

Indeed it does.

[Tipi Walter]

I'd be more willing to give you 5 mins on trail if you first offer a bribe of two avocados. Wonder if you have some extra? :D

Next trip menu is in the works. It very well might include a tub of hummus and one avocado and some Bosc pears---along of course with peanut butter to smear on the pears. Most items will be closely guarded in camp from marauding bears and raccoons . . . but there's always extras. You bringing the watermelon???


I think you personally are pretty careful about stating that you have preferences, and typically leave the "moral failing if you don't agree with me," out of the equation. You state what works for you, in your circumstances. Nothing at all wrong with that. You obviously have a style that works for you, and you rightfully share those opinions. Other participants are all too eager to sneak in generational politics, and other "they're doing it wrong" aspects. Those are the people I'm addressing.

I, with my limited experience, try to be careful with my advice, stating what things work for me, and why. Just like you don't like the people who "hold court" and don't ask questions. I'm not a bit fan of those who "hold court, and gatekeep."

Gatekeeping: the activity of controlling, and usually limiting, general access to something. In effect, I find it annoying and shortsighted when someone tells me, that my experience is less valid, because I only hike two miles a day in the winter, or that I don't like the outdoors because I listen to music.

It's a hiking forum, we should be able to discuss hiking, technology, and express opinions, just like you said. We can do so in a respectful, thoughtful way way without insulting others; without conveying our opinions as facts, and putting down other people's opinions.

Very reasoned post and a good response. My opinion only.

[rickb]

I saw one last year sunning itself on a rock, mid trail, in NH. It was just a baby, so it was in pre-rattle form. A few people told me they saw rattlers in the morning warming themselves on campfire stones. That seems a bigger risk than just randomly in the trail.

Very, very, very few in NH.

[Puddlefish]

Very, very, very few in NH.

Yeah, I've seen three lifetime.

Edit: The people who told me they saw them on campfire stones, were on the southern AT. Shouldn't have mixed my stories together like that.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I've never seen one rattlesnake in northern NH in almost 20 years. Plenty of milk snakes, and lots of garter and other small snakes, but no rattlers.

[Puddlefish]

I've never seen one rattlesnake in northern NH in almost 20 years. Plenty of milk snakes, and lots of garter and other small snakes, but no rattlers.

I've been in NH for 50 years, mostly in southern NH, and more recently upper valley. I've seen one in Salem as a kid when there were still woods in Salem, Raymond about twenty five years ago (when I was showing my kids how to spot garter snakes along an old stone wall,) and recently in New London along a rarely hiked trail.

[Dogwood]

Lotta cowbell in this session.

[MuddyWaters]

Everyones experience in outdoors is different.

The overweight dude that hikes 3 mpd has a different experience from the fit liteweight guy hiking 25.

The guy with old school 70s 2nd hand gear has a different experience from someone with newer gear.

The person in boots....has a different experience from those in trail runners.

The psycho carrying a a 95 lb pack and staying out 3 weeks thru blizzards, intense storm fronts has a different experience from your average fair weather hikers.

The person relying on effusive up to date data , crowd sourced via connected electronics, has a different experience from those with minimal data and paper guide.

People hiking in groups have different experience from hiking solo.

People staying in shelters have different experience from those searching out campsites. Those using popular marked campsites in guides, have different experience from people who find their own as light is fading, ( or after dark).

And even the person hiking with earphones.....has a different experience from those without.

Everyone may like their version of outdoor experience....but they are all...very different. is any "better" to than others? Thats subjective and up to personal taste, and popular opinion.


The important thing is to understand that everything affects your experience in some way, often significantly. And decide for yourself if that's acceptable you.

Possibly reflect on the reasons for your decisions. For instance, some group hikers, not all, are afraid to be alone in woods and will never hike or camp alone. Their version of outdoors must always be tainted by presence of other people. They will never know solitude, or the feeling of being self sufficient for days in vast wilderness without seeing another human. Ok for them, that probably scares the poo out of them.

Maintaining electronic connections to civilization also taints the ability to feel disconnected from civilization. For some, its that connection that permits them to do what they do. Without it, they wont. They are actually afraid to be totally disconnected, without cell or satellite communication. Even on AT, which is kind of ridiculous imo, at least south of ME.

[cmoulder]

well.......

more people have been killed by snakes while attending church than in the woods.......
OK, now that's funny. And true. :D

[rickb]

Can someone (Dogwood?) download the 228 page PDF that is linked from this page, and expand upon what they have found?

https://www.fs.usda.gov/treesearch/pubs/all/40914

[rickb]

For those with shorter attention spans, the excerp form the larger document is also linked here, and is apropos to discusion at hand:


https://www.fs.usda.gov/treesearch/pubs/all/40914

[cmoulder]

Can someone (Dogwood?) download the 228 page PDF that is linked from this page, and expand upon what they have found?

https://www.fs.usda.gov/treesearch/pubs/all/40914

Conclusion: Some people are idiots. They take more risk because they think they can push a button and instantly summon the cavalry. The rest is documentation of that fact.

[greenmtnboy]

I wouldn't think of bringing excess technology on a hike, it is just rude. https://i.imgur.com/QBIZPVk.jpg 45064

[JPritch]

People all too often draw arbitrary lines in the sand, call one side good, and the other side bad, based on where they're standing at the moment.

People who hike faster than me, don't really enjoy the outdoors, because they're going too fast to take it in properly. Fact.
People who hike slower than me, don't really enjoy the outdoors, because they're going too slow to see much of it. Fact.

People who stay in stealth camp don't really enjoy the trail experience, because they miss out on all the neat people. Fact
People who stay in shelters don't really enjoy the trail experience, because shelters are noisy and filthy. Fact.

People who wear brimmed hats, don't really enjoy hiking, because they miss out on 20% of the view upwards. That's 20% less of nature they enjoy. Fact.
People who wear shoes/boots/footwear, don't really enjoy the outdoors. They miss the tactile sensation of feeling the trail under their feet. Fact.
People who wear sunglasses, don't really enjoy the outdoors, as they see a reduced spectrum of light. Fact.
People who use bugspray, don't really embrace the outdoor experience, as ticks and illness are an important part of nature. Fact.
People who use earbuds, don't really enjoy the outdoors. Fact.

Old people who wake early, and rudely speak at full volume when I'm trying to sleep, are the bane of my existence. Fact.
Young people, who stay up late, and rudely make noise while I'm trying to sleep, are the bane of my existence. Fact.


All of these "facts" are seriously flawed and require a great deal of your own perspective to process. They all rely greatly on your personal interpretation of what enjoying nature consists of. We all draw the lines in the sand, at slightly different spots. We hike, camp, tent, backpack, walk, amble, run, in a way that works best for us. It's tacky to pretend someone else is "doing it wrong" because they're doing it differently. It's insulting to diminish someone else's experience, because you have a different preference and different experiences.

This is not a call for anarchy. We can hike our own hike, without intruding on anyone else's hike.
Points taken. You just gotta keep in mind that WhiteBlaze is like gate-keeping central when it comes to hiking. Just laugh it off.

[Zalman]

I never hike without my phone! Nor do I ever use it on the trail (not once, in several dozen trips so far). I am 6oz heavier now though, so I've got that going for me.

[Dogwood]

Can someone (Dogwood?) download the 228 page PDF that is linked from this page, and expand upon what they have found?

https://www.fs.usda.gov/treesearch/pubs/all/40914

Rick, you and your wife's HI couch surfing privileges have just expired. :D

[Traffic Jam]

I play Candy Crush late at night in my tent...when no one is watching.

[Dogwood]

I play Candy Crush late at night in my tent...when no one is watching.


rotfl.........You should download the rad Candyland app. It's just like hiking the AT rolling the die and moving forward on a 30" wide tread. Gumdrop Mts and Peppermint Forest.

[C4web88]

Points taken. You just gotta keep in mind that WhiteBlaze is like gate-keeping central when it comes to hiking. Just laugh it off.

Ain't that the truth.

[MuddyWaters]

I play Candy Crush late at night in my tent...when no one is watching.

People watch you in your tent?
Do you charge for this " entertainment"?

I watch movies and tv shows i download, or read, and review days photos and next day plans.
After watching a bunch of original star-trek episodes one night, i remarked to a guy i was hiking with how incredibly the plots werent outdated after 40+ years. Turned out..he was somewhat of an expert on star trek. I learnt a lot about it and its creator , and avanced social themes of the show over next couple hours.

[Traffic Jam]

People watch you in your tent?
Do you charge for this " entertainment"?

.

Taking advantage of pigs is how I fund my hiking trips, don’t cha know. :rolleyes:

:)

[Dan Roper]

This passage from David Brill's As Far As the Eye Can See (about his 1979 thru hike) caught my eye:

"If there was any sense of isolation from being on the trail for months at a time, it was isolation from the world and national news. We spent from three to ten days at a stretch between resupply trips to town. We didn't carry radios, and, during our stopovers, we rarely picked up newspapers. Frankly, there wasn't much going on in the world that interested us..."

P.S. Brill's book is easily my favorite about the AT. I just began re-reading it, something I've done every three or four years since the '90s. 1979 seems like ancient history.

[Traillium]

This passage from David Brill's As Far As the Eye Can See (about his 1979 thru hike) caught my eye:

How would I find that essay?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dan Roper]

As Far as the Eye Can See was recently reprinted by the University of Tennessee Press (around 2013 or thereabouts). That was its seventh printing. You should be able to find the book on Amazon or via UT Press.

Brill is one of the finest outdoors writers there is. His description of seeing spring come to the southern AT is absolutely perfect writing.

[MuddyWaters]

How would I find that essay?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Google.

Amazon has plenty vintage used copies for about $8

Apparently there is a very cheap postal shipping rate for books that used book sellers use. Media mail? However it is slooowww. Like it can take 3 weeks to get it to you. So beware. But no one wants to pay $10 shipping for $5 book, so its a good thing, but slow.

I gave mine away to public library after reading

[Traillium]

Amazon has plenty vintage used copies for about $8


Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dan Roper]

In 1986, me and two friends canoed 125 miles of the Ogeechee River in southeast Georgia over five nights and six days. I think the only town we went into was Millen, hitchhiking to a Dairy Queen. That day we learned that the Air Force had bombed some target identified as a military complex in Libya. I recall how odd it seemed that important events were taking places without us knowing about them relatively immediately.

I've never owned a cell phone or Smart phone, etc., so when I venture into the woods for a day hike or a section hike, I do get a sense of stepping out of the world briefly. I like that. From reading WB and talking with folks generally, through the years, I know there are a lot of people that enjoy technology and have made their peace with it in the woods, appreciating the advantages it offers.

I haven't read this thread, except for perhaps the last ten posts, because it's all been said in WB before, ten thousands times. There are basically two views of thought, and the twain shall not meet. :)

[TOW]

This topic has probably been raised before on this Forum. Nonetheless, I think it’s good to continue the discussion. People love gadgets, especially men. I’m probably in the minority, but I feel there’s too much gadgetry on the trail these days. Unless one hikes as an athletic pursuit (for a challenge, for fitness, etc.), the whole idea of a mountain hike is about getting out and enjoying nature, and separating oneself from the artificiality and cushy conveniences of urban/suburban society. Isn’t it? If so, why are so many people dragging the digital revolution onto the trail? Don’t devices like handheld computers (iPhones) and various “apps” compromise the back-to-nature experience? Some things are essential, I realize. Manmade tents, sleeping bags, stoves, matches, etc. And cameras and non-computerized phones are convenient. But have we gone too far? Have we “over-safety’ed” and “over-convenienced” ourselves?

Would love to see how many people, if any, agree with me.
Even though I have been addicted to the internet for a while when I go to the woods here lately I sometimes leave my gadget at home, or if I take it I turn it on when there might be service to check for guests wanting to come in. And what I have witnessed on occasion is a hiker will pick up a mail drop and their phone and other gadgets will be in there. I think more folks are slowly leaving the things at home. Earl Shaffer sure did not have gadgets. or Gene Epsy and Grandma Gatewood just to name a few.