View Full Version : “Armed and Dangerous AT hiker”
Traffic Jam
04-22-2019, 16:11
https://www.wbir.com/article/news/crime/armed-dangerous-appalachian-trail-hiker-may-be-on-his-way-to-tennessee/51-252e2d90-fac1-4484-b092-a171b34b374b
yeah....
thats my station where i work...
its been all oover all the knoxville stations and other places.....
Traffic Jam
04-22-2019, 16:28
yeah....
thats my station where i work...
its been all oover all the knoxville stations and other places.....
i was surprised you hadn’t already posted something.
i was surprised you hadn’t already posted something.
yeah....
wasnt really into it.....
this one just sounds weird to me.....
and this is why it sounded weird to me....
updated story...........
no machete....
https://wlos.com/news/local/hikers-asked-to-be-on-the-lookout-after-man-reported-in-multiple-counties-making-threats
Traffic Jam
04-22-2019, 18:33
and this is why it sounded weird to me....
updated story...........
no machete....
https://wlos.com/news/local/hikers-asked-to-be-on-the-lookout-after-man-reported-in-multiple-counties-making-threats
Lol...just saw it.
that’s why I used quotes around Armed and Dangerous.
geez, I better not hike with my fiddle. I often take it in businesses with me when it’s too hot to leave in the car. One day someone’s gonna think I have a weapon.
This nutcase should’nt be hard to find...Jeez how ****ty an it get when you can’t even hike without some nut ruining it.Someone needs to cap this guy and quick.
So... ? Is this what they mean by "rush to judgment"?
Sarcasm the elf
04-22-2019, 19:49
Lol...just saw it.
that’s why I used quotes around Armed and Dangerous.
geez, I better not hike with my fiddle. I often take it in businesses with me when it’s too hot to leave in the car. One day someone’s gonna think I have a weapon.
You’ll be fine as long as you don’t play wagon wheel.
rmitchell
04-22-2019, 20:12
Well, Chet Atkins did call his guitar a "yakety axe".
AllDownhillFromHere
04-22-2019, 20:23
This nutcase should’nt be hard to find...Jeez how ****ty an it get when you can’t even hike without some nut ruining it.Someone needs to cap this guy and quick.
Sounds like we have a badass here.
greenmtnboy
04-22-2019, 21:18
This sounds like a lot of peevish paranoia to me, what ever happened to "mind your own business" and "forgive and forget"?
I've never seen such judgmental, intolerant and overly jaundiced hair trigger reactions as exists especially around the AT. Unless you fit into the "good" stereotypes that get left alone, you could easily be wrongly branded and stigmatized by people and reported. Life is full of thousands of types of people, why are people so quick to judge and report stuff?
Traffic Jam
04-22-2019, 21:38
This sounds like a lot of peevish paranoia to me, what ever happened to "mind your own business" and "forgive and forget"?
I've never seen such judgmental, intolerant and overly jaundiced hair trigger reactions as exists in the south especially around the AT. Unless you fit into the "good" stereotypes that get left alone, you could easily be wrongly branded and stigmatized by people and reported. Life is full of thousands of types of people, why are people so quick to judge and report stuff?
I agree that people can be unfairly judged. Including how you are currently judging me.
As the OP, I felt I was non-judgmentally passing on interesting information. Information that was originally published in a (normally) credible news source... which has been done thousands of times on WB. Specifically, I kept thinking about the group of people who were held at gun point at a shelter a few years back. And given that I normally backpack alone, it is info that I would want to have.
BTW, I have already requested this thread to be deleted.
Traffic Jam
04-22-2019, 21:50
Oh wait...I did judge a little when I saw the dog dragging his lead behind him. I thought, dang, that can’t be comfortable for the dog.
MuddyWaters
04-22-2019, 22:07
So, inquiring minds want to know how he got reported to have threatened people with a shovel and a machete...
But yet when the police talked to him they came away and said he didn't do anything.
Feral Bill
04-22-2019, 23:45
People can get spooked. Years ago I met a fellow with a machete on the Wonderland Trail, with gear that was not the usual. The other people at the campsite were really freaked out, although he had said or done nothing at all threatening. Had a short chat with him that raised no red flags. He lacked a permit, and was escorted up a long climb to the trail head by a ranger. I wonder what story the other hikers told afterwards.
Lone Wolf
04-23-2019, 06:53
https://wcyb.com/news/local/update-sheriff-says-appalachian-trail-hiker-booked-on-assault-charge
Traveler
04-23-2019, 07:47
It's easy to mistake a cathole trowel for a shovel.... and machetes are commonly mistaken for guitars. TSA has a heck of a time with that.
greenmtnboy
04-23-2019, 08:00
https://wcyb.com/news/local/update-sheriff-says-appalachian-trail-hiker-booked-on-assault-charge
Jailed with charges. Guy with little money needs a lawyer, hopefully he has a family member that will come to his aid. The guy was on a schedule 6 drug. https://discoveryplace.info/legal/drug-laws-tennessee/ That may be pot. What happens to the dog? He is a sick person needing help more than a dangerous criminal. I guess we can all sleep more soundly knowing dangerous people like "sovereign" is no longer a free man.
Jailed with charges. Guy with little money needs a lawyer, hopefully he has a family member that will come to his aid. The guy was on a schedule 6 drug. https://discoveryplace.info/legal/drug-laws-tennessee/ That may be pot. What happens to the dog? He is a sick person needing help more than a dangerous criminal. I guess we can all sleep more soundly knowing dangerous people like "sovereign" is no longer a free man.
Would you be ok with it if he were wandering around your neighborhood?
This sounds like a lot of peevish paranoia to me, what ever happened to "mind your own business" and "forgive and forget"?
I've never seen such judgmental, intolerant and overly jaundiced hair trigger reactions as exists in the south especially around the AT. Unless you fit into the "good" stereotypes that get left alone, you could easily be wrongly branded and stigmatized by people and reported. Life is full of thousands of types of people, why are people so quick to judge and report stuff?
Way to judge the entire South there buddy. Congrats!:banana
TexasBob
04-23-2019, 09:42
Oh wait...I did judge a little when I saw the dog dragging his lead behind him. I thought, dang, that can’t be comfortable for the dog.
Walking along a road behind his owner and dragging his leash. The leash is pretty much pointless. This guy is not the sharpest tool in the shed.
Sarcasm the elf
04-23-2019, 09:55
This sounds like a lot of peevish paranoia to me, what ever happened to "mind your own business" and "forgive and forget"?
I've never seen such judgmental, intolerant and overly jaundiced hair trigger reactions as exists in the south especially around the AT. Unless you fit into the "good" stereotypes that get left alone, you could easily be wrongly branded and stigmatized by people and reported. Life is full of thousands of types of people, why are people so quick to judge and report stuff?
Yeah, how dare people be reactionary and judgemental. :-?
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/113716-Drug-party-near-Kent-AT?highlight=
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/122192-Is-marijuana-getting-out-of-control?highlight=
Yeah, how dare people be reactionary and judgemental
i stand by my marijuana comments......
Southeast
04-23-2019, 10:02
Yeah, how dare people be reactionary and judgemental. :-?
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/113716-Drug-party-near-Kent-AT?highlight=
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/122192-Is-marijuana-getting-out-of-control?highlight=
Apparently they’ve forgiven and forgotten those posts already
greenmtnboy
04-23-2019, 10:20
Apparently they’ve forgiven and forgotten those posts already
Guilty as charged, I can be vociferous based on how I see stuff.
I'll take a page from Emerson's essay. 45099
I have never smoked pot; I believe it has medicinal value. I dealt with an older brother who used every single illegal and legal drug out there where my father filed criminal charges against him finally, which Bob saw as a bolt from God. He has been in AA and recovery for over 30 years now, is married and has two kids.
Do I regret going public on the "pot party"? I don't know. If you go to that section in Kent you can see how the USFS blocked off the parking area that was where I saw the cars with huge boulders and now a gate, I don't know if what I posted had anything to do about that. But I also went public with the laundromat closure contacting a newspaper and as a result she reopened that to hikers. I am just one of many voices.
On this poor guy, he needs advocates. The rich kids who were having their drug party probably needed a visit by law enforcement. As usual the wealthy get much better treatment than the poor.
And on my slam against the south vs. the north clearly there is a lot of hair trigger criticism all along the trails irrespective of geographical zones. People need to know their rights as the Constitution can't fight for you without strong initiative.
The rich kids who were having their drug party probably needed a visit by law enforcement.
or they could have been just left alone...
no need for the cops to show up......
greenmtnboy
04-23-2019, 10:34
Way to judge the entire South there buddy. Congrats!:banana
I edited that; you called me on it, you are right and I was wrong and ask for forgiveness.
ldsailor
04-23-2019, 10:58
I'm a little lost here. If the news reports are to be believed (and why shouldn't they?), the guy was arrested with a 20" knife. I'm going to take a guess here and say this is what another hiker thought was a machete. Furthermore, he was booked on an assault charge. So why does it seem like some here are defending him? I imagine a hiker with a large knife threatening people and who has a pit bull dog would prompt me to call the police and push to have him taken off the trail.
So why does it seem like some here are defending him?
its gone back and forth since yesterday....
at one point they were looking for him------then late in the afternoon, other authorities caught up with him and decided he was not a threat and let him be on his merry way...
then either late last night or early this morning----a different set of law arrested him for the large knife and making threats....
but, its america---innocent until proven guilty.....
Yep - when the first group of authorities found him, they apparently didn't find the 20" knife and the reports made it sound like there was a misunderstanding over whether he'd ever had one (versus a similarly sized portable guitar?).
Christoph
04-23-2019, 12:03
Not sure what the "pit bull dog" has anything to do with this (other than being off (sort of) leash)...
Sarcasm the elf
04-23-2019, 12:10
Not sure what the "pit bull dog" has anything to do with this (other than being off (sort of) leash)...
Federal law requires news outlets to sensationalize pitbulls every time they get the chance. ;)
Armed with a guitar and playing highly dangerous songs...:p
The Cleaner
04-23-2019, 13:30
I would have no problems with USFS LEOs showing up and issuing citations for littering, illegal camping and anything else they find anyone doing that violates the LNT guidelines. A few years back I was camped along the Creeper Trail. Two VA DNR officers were checking a fisherman for license violations and pointed out that I was camped too close to a water source, the Whitetop Laurel River. There was a fire ring already there so I decided to camp there. Yep I was guilty but they declined to issue a citation, said it was up to the USFS to do that. Probably all of us have done something similar at one time. Now lots of hikers are upset about 1 psycho acting like a BA. Leave the southern peeps alone, this guy was from MA.
ldsailor
04-23-2019, 13:38
Not sure what the "pit bull dog" has anything to do with this (other than being off (sort of) leash)...
Yes, there is media exploitation of pit bulls in the way they report attacks, but let's face it. A pit bull not being controlled by its owner who appears to be unstable is not a picture of safety in my opinion. I have been charged several times on the trail by unleashed dogs. A hiker in my hiking group in Florida was recently bitten by a pit bull on a leash but obviously not under control by the owner. On this forum in the last week, a hiker reported a dog bit him on the AT. So, yeah, the dog is relevant in my opinion.
Was it even a pit bull though? Looking at the pic posted, it doesn't look like one to me (at least not full bred).
Was it even a pit bull though? Looking at the pic posted, it doesn't look like one to me (at least not full bred).
others on FB was saying it was a mutt/mix breed dog...
i cannot confirm what kinda dog it is.....
just looked at the police report------dude has some pot on him....doesnt say quantity.......or quality for that matter...
looks like the criminal impersonation charge is from dude giving a false name to officers.....
also says he was slurring his words and having trouble standing------so thats gotta be something else than pot.........
AllDownhillFromHere
04-23-2019, 15:47
The breed of the off-leash dog is hardly the problem.
FreeGoldRush
04-23-2019, 16:39
As usual the wealthy get much better treatment than the poor.
.
Just show your, “I’m wealthy” card wherever you go. See what that gets ya. Lol.
4eyedbuzzard
04-23-2019, 17:19
Another update https://www.wjhl.com/local/new-details-hiker-suspect-in-assault-on-appalachian-trail-sheriff-says/1947581693
Whiteblaze.net is posted off location with the men and women of cyber-hiking. All hikers are guilty until proven innocent in a court of public opinion. [Cue music - Bad boys, bad boys...]
Old Grouse
04-23-2019, 17:37
Armed with a guitar and playing highly dangerous songs...:p
https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.284437718.2457/raf,750x1000,075,t,fafafa:ca443f4786.jpg (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiTlpeHlufhAhXJ1lkKHey9Cr0QjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redbubble.com%2Fpeople%2Ftak ethestreets%2Fworks%2F23962457-woody-guthrie-guitar-graphic%3Fp%3Dt-shirt&psig=AOvVaw0io5CHyW5538Y_qbM-zUiD&ust=1556141782887642)Woody Guthrie's guitar was dangerous.
greenmtnboy
04-23-2019, 18:18
Just show your, “I’m wealthy” card wherever you go. See what that gets ya. Lol.
Cops know fairly quickly, profiling is a very obvious reality in the USA; clothes, pack, demeanor, etc.; this guy was a sitting duck, I hope he gets the help he needs instead of imprisonment which will do nothing for him except perhaps a reality check. I find it strange that the two standards of justice based on ability to get competent legal counsel would be called into question. https://www.researchgate.net/blog/post/two-in-one-differences-in-the-us-justice-system-for-the-rich-and-the-poor
4eyedbuzzard
04-23-2019, 19:35
Cops know fairly quickly, profiling is a very obvious reality in the USA; clothes, pack, demeanor, etc.; this guy was a sitting duck, I hope he gets the help he needs instead of imprisonment which will do nothing for him except perhaps a reality check. I find it strange that the two standards of justice based on ability to get competent legal counsel would be called into question. https://www.researchgate.net/blog/post/two-in-one-differences-in-the-us-justice-system-for-the-rich-and-the-poor
EVERYBODY - not just cops - "profiles". We all make assumptions about other people based upon a variety of stimulus. Someone's physical appearance is the first thing we notice before we get to any other factors. You see an unkempt man with a big Bowie knife and a pit mix dog in tow and your alert level rises. As it should. The latest report https://www.wjhl.com/local/new-details-hiker-suspect-in-assault-on-appalachian-trail-sheriff-says/1947581693 is that he is suspected of assault on a juvenile as well. But he's just a poor sitting duck? I also hope he gets help. But if he assaulted people, I hope he gets punished as well. And I don't really give a rats @$$ about his finances.
greenmtnboy
04-23-2019, 21:22
EVERYBODY - not just cops - "profiles". We all make assumptions about other people based upon a variety of stimulus. Someone's physical appearance is the first thing we notice before we get to any other factors. You see an unkempt man with a big Bowie knife and a pit mix dog in tow and your alert level rises. As it should. The latest report https://www.wjhl.com/local/new-details-hiker-suspect-in-assault-on-appalachian-trail-sheriff-says/1947581693 is that he is suspected of assault on a juvenile as well. But he's just a poor sitting duck? I also hope he gets help. But if he assaulted people, I hope he gets punished as well. And I don't really give a rats @$$ about his finances.
Reporter Kristen Gallant met two Appalachian Trail hikers who said that they ran into the hiker who goes by “Sovereign” four separate times on the trail. The two hikers from Massachusetts met him for the first time in Hot Springs, NC on April 17th. They say, the man we now know as James Jordon, ran into them on the trail, at different hostels, and at shelters. Each time they saw him, his personality "got worse." The hikers saying that sometimes he would hiss like a cat at people, and that he was unprepared in the bad weather by not having rain or snow gear. They say his dog, who he called Falisha, was wearing a service dog vest and collar. The female hiker that spoke with News Channel 11 said she once went to get water down a hill and away from other campers when he followed her. Making her feel uncomfortable, she picked up a rock and headed back to the other campers. She said, "it was clear he was violent." Both hikers said, at the time they saw Jordon, he did have a guitar and a knife. The male hiker saying that he's, “So happy he’s off the trail.”
Ok, sounds like a real menace. The earlier report seemed confused about what danger he posed. I hope they do a thorough investigation.
Traffic Jam
04-23-2019, 22:20
Reporter Kristen Gallant met two Appalachian Trail hikers who said that they ran into the hiker who goes by “Sovereign” four separate times on the trail. The two hikers from Massachusetts met him for the first time in Hot Springs, NC on April 17th. They say, the man we now know as James Jordon, ran into them on the trail, at different hostels, and at shelters. Each time they saw him, his personality "got worse." The hikers saying that sometimes he would hiss like a cat at people, and that he was unprepared in the bad weather by not having rain or snow gear. They say his dog, who he called Falisha, was wearing a service dog vest and collar. The female hiker that spoke with News Channel 11 said she once went to get water down a hill and away from other campers when he followed her. Making her feel uncomfortable, she picked up a rock and headed back to the other campers. She said, "it was clear he was violent." Both hikers said, at the time they saw Jordon, he did have a guitar and a knife. The male hiker saying that he's, “So happy he’s off the trail.”
Ok, sounds like a real menace. The earlier report seemed confused about what danger he posed. I hope they do a thorough investigation.
It’s such a difficult situation and it’s hard to know the right thing to do. I had an encounter on the trail with a mentally ill man whose family was searching for him. He scared the crap out of me...the things he said. Yet, he didn’t attempt anything overt and I felt that he had as much right as myself to be out hiking. In the end, I did nothing...said nothing. I don’t know if that was the right thing to do.
When solo women (and men) are out in the woods, sometimes we have to make snap judgments. Ultimately, it boils down to being safe and if it offends someone, well *uc* them.
It’s such a difficult situation and it’s hard to know the right thing to do. I had an encounter on the trail with a mentally ill man whose family was searching for him. He scared the crap out of me...the things he said. Yet, he didn’t attempt anything overt and I felt that he had as much right as myself to be out hiking. In the end, I did nothing...said nothing. I don’t know if that was the right thing to do.
When solo women (and men) are out in the woods, sometimes we have to make snap judgments. Ultimately, it boils down to being safe and if it offends someone, well *uc* them.
Agreed.
I have long thought that a thru hiker’s “ownership” of the Trail, together with heightened open mindedness towards others, contributes to their aaccepting those rare uncomfortable/scary situations that they would NEVER tolerate in ANY OTHER context.
I will bet many others have similar stories.
Only thing I would add is that in most cases the worst violence on the Trail has not been perpetrated against solo hikers—. but rather couples. So they need to trust their gut when decisding on whether to distance themselves from an uncomfortable situation every bit as much, IMO.
Just show your, “I’m wealthy” card wherever you go. See what that gets ya. Lol.
Not sure if it is a rich/poor thing but I know I my answer would be more thoughtful than most people’s should a law enforcement officer ever ask if “I minded he take a look inside” my backpack, tent or trunk.
I am amazed how police officers can get consent from those who would be well served to withhold it — like if you have some weed or a Crocodile Dundee knife inside.
An interview with some hikers who met the person in question.
https://www.facebook.com/thehikeryearbook/videos/316980278959984/
MuddyWaters
04-24-2019, 09:38
Not sure if it is a rich/poor thing but I know I my answer would be more thoughtful than most people’s should a law enforcement officer ever ask if “I minded he take a look inside” my backpack, tent or trunk.
I am amazed how police officers can get consent from those who would be well served to withhold it — like if you have some weed or a Crocodile Dundee knife inside.
If questioned / investigated by police about anything, whether you think you did something wrong or not, your answers should be " not without a warrant. i dont remember. I need to speak to an attorney". Many people in jail because they ratted themselves out.
greenmtnboy
04-24-2019, 10:20
I agree you never testify against yourself, we have enough detractors usually anyway; my loving my neighbor as myself or trying to do so presupposes I show myself all proper respect and take care of my own health. When asked impertinent questions even Jesus remained mum or asked what others had said about him.
Once you are in jail with charges they will look to try to get you to plead to something.
trailmercury
04-24-2019, 10:33
And you tell your minor children, if presented with the scenario, to not say anything to Officers other than, "Call my parents".
That should be the answer to any and all questions.
somers515
04-24-2019, 12:04
So let's say a criminal kills someone and then is chased by the police. The criminal runs thru your backyard and hides in the woods behind your yard. You and your kids watch this happen. The police officer shows up and asks which way did he go. Are you going to say "not without a warrant, I don't remember, I need to speak to an attorney" or hope that your kids just state "call my parents"? If not then I suggest staying away from absolute statements on how to deal with the police.
Police officers have a difficult job and generally speaking try to do the right thing and keep us all safe.
trailmercury
04-24-2019, 12:39
silly question
you are taking it waay out of context
if a killer is in you yard, you are not a potential suspect/person of interest/harassee
MuddyWaters
04-24-2019, 13:26
So let's say a criminal kills someone and then is chased by the police. The criminal runs thru your backyard and hides in the woods behind your yard. You and your kids watch this happen. The police officer shows up and asks which way did he go. Are you going to say "not without a warrant, I don't remember, I need to speak to an attorney" or hope that your kids just state "call my parents"? If not then I suggest staying away from absolute statements on how to deal with the police.
Police officers have a difficult job and generally speaking try to do the right thing and keep us all safe.
If they are asking about the criminal ..ok thats not you
But..once in your yard anything seen can be used to open an investigation on you. From a bicyle without a license, to hazardous materials like used motor oil/filter / improperly disposed of.
My stepson was charged with weapons charges for holding automatic weapons for a military friend that went on vacation.and didnt want to leave them unnatended.....when police happened to see something that interetested them when he answered knock on door about a disturbance nearby apartment. It was eventually dropped...but a big hassle that led to his apartment being searched and laptop seized.
If police trying to do right thing, and doing it was same thing....there would be no need for courts and lawyers.
Yikes. As usual, this thread has drifted to a profound topic.
I find myself stuck between the way my folks raised me (nothing to hide) and maintaining personal rights. If I ever encountered law enforcement on trail I would have no problem with them verifying that all that I carry is legal. HOWEVER, life experience has conditioned me to resist any form of search/siezure.
I respect that LEO'S jobs are difficult, especially in the backcountry, but I think I would refuse a personal search based on tips from other hikers up the trail. Tough call.
Then again....I don't hike with long blades and drug paraphernalia....
Feral Bill
04-24-2019, 14:00
If they are asking about the criminal ..ok thats not you
My stepson was charged with weapons charges for holding automatic weapons for a military friend that went on vacation.and didnt want to leave them unnatended.....when police happened to see something that interetested them when he answered knock on door about a disturbance nearby apartment. It was eventually dropped...but a big hassle that led to his apartment being searched and laptop seized.
.
Please explain why a military person has automatic weapons at home, and no where on base to store them while
out of town.
Alligator
04-24-2019, 14:21
Please explain why a military person has automatic weapons at home, and no where on base to store them while
out of town.No let's not, it's not particularly related to hiking.
Please keep posts to the circumstances surrounding the hiker involved.
Thanks.
Feral Bill
04-24-2019, 14:52
No let's not, it's not particularly related to hiking.
Please keep posts to the circumstances surrounding the hiker involved.
Thanks. Good idea. Sorry.
Traveler
04-25-2019, 07:40
Yikes. As usual, this thread has drifted to a profound topic.
I find myself stuck between the way my folks raised me (nothing to hide) and maintaining personal rights. If I ever encountered law enforcement on trail I would have no problem with them verifying that all that I carry is legal. HOWEVER, life experience has conditioned me to resist any form of search/siezure.
I respect that LEO'S jobs are difficult, especially in the backcountry, but I think I would refuse a personal search based on tips from other hikers up the trail. Tough call.
Then again....I don't hike with long blades and drug paraphernalia....
The call is certainly yours to make, much like making a Constitutional statement to TSA searches once the scanning station is reached with a line of a few hundred people in back of you. It may be wiser not to. There can be some realities to consider.
If there has been a complaint made about you (or someone closely resembling you), especially if a weapon is said to be involved, declining a search that would clear up the issue and depending on the statements made by the complainant can cause you to be detained as a warrant is applied for.
From that point the local LE system protocols take over. If communication is difficult in the back country the complaint LE is acting on may be enough to take you or your gear into custody. At that point you may be transported you to a controlled environment like a police or ranger station for a statement and search warrant application. That application may take a few hours or days, depending what day of the week it is and what business hours local magistrates keep. The warrant application may be turned down, however if LEO makes a decent argument for one, it will likely be granted given it will either be fully exculpatory or provide basis for prosecution.
If illegal things are found at that point the climate for bargaining away minor charges can be more difficult than it would have been back on the trail. If on the other hand nothing is found, you will be told "you are free to go" and perhaps offered a ride back to the trailhead, though LE is not obliged to do that and some officers may feel had you simply shown the pack hours/days ago, their time and yours would not have been wasted.
If there's nothing to hide, sometimes it may make sense to bend a little and allow LE to take a look in the pack to alleviate their concern so everyone may be on their way.
FlyPaper
04-25-2019, 09:39
I'm a little lost here. If the news reports are to be believed (and why shouldn't they?), the guy was arrested with a 20" knife. I'm going to take a guess here and say this is what another hiker thought was a machete. Furthermore, he was booked on an assault charge. So why does it seem like some here are defending him? I imagine a hiker with a large knife threatening people and who has a pit bull dog would prompt me to call the police and push to have him taken off the trail.
Some people like to rush to judgement and condemn other people for rushing to judgement. It's a form of virtue signaling.
Bob says someone was brandishing a large machete and threatening people. When questioned, that person says he never had a machete and didn't threaten people. Okay then, that clears it up. The only conceivable possibility is that Bob is paranoid and rushed to judgement. Bob apparently cannot tell a guitar from a machete and obviously misread the situation. Case closed.
update as of this (thursday) morning----from our sister station in the tri cities...
"There are no new charges. He was given probation and fines today for the original charges of the criminal impersonation/drug charges. He is being released from jail today. The investigator told me that none of the witnesses are willing to go to court as witnesses."
chknfngrs
04-25-2019, 18:34
Because they are thru hikers... I get it...they don’t want to stick around
update as of this (thursday) morning----from our sister station in the tri cities...
"There are no new charges. He was given probation and fines today for the original charges of the criminal impersonation/drug charges. He is being released from jail today. The investigator told me that none of the witnesses are willing to go to court as witnesses."
4eyedbuzzard
04-25-2019, 18:38
update as of this (thursday) morning----from our sister station in the tri cities...
"There are no new charges. He was given probation and fines today for the original charges of the criminal impersonation/drug charges. He is being released from jail today. The investigator told me that none of the witnesses are willing to go to court as witnesses."https://www.wbir.com/article/news/crime/appalachian-trail-hiker-charged-with-criminal-impersonation-is-released-from-jail/51-7ce517c4-eb37-4e81-a3c7-004a34dd7546
https://www.wbir.com/article/news/crime/appalachian-trail-hiker-charged-with-criminal-impersonation-is-released-from-jail/51-7ce517c4-eb37-4e81-a3c7-004a34dd7546
Yeah....
that is where i work and source of my info....
This thread speaks to the larger issue of how one should deal with people who make them feel — for whatever reason — uneasy.
While the AT is a shared space that attracts many kinds of people, I think that thru hikers can get so into the flow of things to such a degree that they may discount warning signs on the AT that they might not elsewhere.
Good to remember the AT has seen some truly evil people over the years, and most of the worst violence of the Trail began or ended at a shelter.
Game Warden
04-26-2019, 22:44
Let me share an encounter from yesterday, on the portion of the AT in my patrol area. There's been illegal camping along a trout stream, and some trail runners have been spray-painting mileage markers on trees and rocks--not cool. About a mile from the trail I saw a man hiking with a large pack and carrying a long black object. If he was fishing or hunting, he'd need a license. If he was doing out-and-back camping, he'd be wrong. So I pulled up alongside him and said "Hi, just out for a walk today?" He gave me a look of incomprehension, so I repeated the question: "Are you just out for a hike today?" He gave me a f-you look and said "Why, is that a problem?" I said "No, I just want to know if you are fishing, hunting or camping." He said No, so I wished him a good day and went on down the road. The long black object was an umbrella--but I should have asked him if he had any paint cans in that big pack he was carrying. Law enforcement requires balancing my responsibilities with an individual's right to be left alone. We don't always get it right. Sometimes the citizen contributes to misunderstandings.
Let me share an encounter from yesterday, on the portion of the AT in my patrol area. There's been illegal camping along a trout stream, and some trail runners have been spray-painting mileage markers on trees and rocks--not cool. About a mile from the trail I saw a man hiking with a large pack and carrying a long black object. If he was fishing or hunting, he'd need a license. If he was doing out-and-back camping, he'd be wrong. So I pulled up alongside him and said "Hi, just out for a walk today?" He gave me a look of incomprehension, so I repeated the question: "Are you just out for a hike today?" He gave me a f-you look and said "Why, is that a problem?" I said "No, I just want to know if you are fishing, hunting or camping." He said No, so I wished him a good day and went on down the road. The long black object was an umbrella--but I should have asked him if he had any paint cans in that big pack he was carrying. Law enforcement requires balancing my responsibilities with an individual's right to be left alone. We don't always get it right. Sometimes the citizen contributes to misunderstandings.
I appreciate your input and the fact that y'all have to balance variables. Be safe.
greenmtnboy
04-27-2019, 22:26
This thread speaks to the larger issue of how one should deal with people who make them feel — for whatever reason — uneasy.
While the AT is a shared space that attracts many kinds of people, I think that thru hikers can get so into the flow of things to such a degree that they may discount warning signs on the AT that they might not elsewhere.
Good to remember the AT has seen some truly evil people over the years, and most of the worst violence of the Trail began or ended at a shelter.
Certainly there have been some, though extremely rare instances of violence against hikers and a few bad hikers here and there. However I never had a problem of this type. Ok, I'll have to admit that there were some real wackos in boy scouts.
I find the nervous Nellies far more of a problem, those with so much anxiety about what "might" happen hiking, you wonder what they are doing out of their plastic suburban bubbles. As usual if you have any fear or anxiety no matter where you are even on Mt. Washington, call 911 immediately and the "authorities" will answer and send out a squad to help.
Certainly there have been some, though extremely rare instances of violence against hikers and a few bad hikers here and there. However I never had a problem of this type. Ok, I'll have to admit that there were some real wackos in boy scouts.
I find the nervous Nellies far more of a problem, those with so much anxiety about what "might" happen hiking, you wonder what they are doing out of their plastic suburban bubbles. As usual if you have any fear or anxiety no matter where you are even on Mt. Washington, call 911 immediately and the "authorities" will answer and send out a squad to help.
Probably be a while before they reach you on Mt Washington. :rolleyes:
According to a Facebook post, Odie gave Sovereign a ride to Johnson City and bought him a bus ticket north towards home. His video is worth a watch and some internal reflection.
According to a Facebook post, Odie gave Sovereign a ride to Johnson City and bought him a bus ticket north towards home. His video is worth a watch and some internal reflection.
Got a link or a last name?
The Hiker Yearbook or Matthew Odie Norman.
FrogLevel
05-03-2019, 10:17
Saw him walking up Roan Street in Johnson City this morning around 7:30 AM.
According to a Facebook post, Odie gave Sovereign a ride to Johnson City and bought him a bus ticket north towards home. His video is worth a watch and some internal reflection.
Thanks for posting — definitely worth watching.
iceaxe56
05-04-2019, 05:36
Thank God someone rushed to judge.
iceaxe56
05-04-2019, 05:37
You need a badass every now and then,keeps the nuts at bay.
ldsailor
05-06-2019, 12:51
I was watching Ramdino's through hiker update this morning, and he reported that Sovereign is causing trouble further up the trail in Shenandoah National Park. Apparently he was at the Partnership Shelter a while back, too. Ramdino thinks Sovereign is yellow blazing since he is showing up at shelters near parking areas. Sovereign's mug shot was included in the YouTube video.
So I guess that little run-in with the law further south hasn't dissuaded Sovereign from continuing to cause trouble. The hiker that reported the situation to Ramdino was Porkchop.
Thanks for posting the video link. Good to see that warnings were posted on guthooks so folks could stay safe. Hope he didn’t eat his dog. (Ahhhhhhhhhggggg !!!!!)
4eyedbuzzard
05-06-2019, 18:32
I was watching Ramdino's through hiker update this morning, and he reported that Sovereign is causing trouble further up the trail in Shenandoah National Park. Apparently he was at the Partnership Shelter a while back, too. Ramdino thinks Sovereign is yellow blazing since he is showing up at shelters near parking areas. Sovereign's mug shot was included in the YouTube video.
So I guess that little run-in with the law further south hasn't dissuaded Sovereign from continuing to cause trouble. The hiker that reported the situation to Ramdino was Porkchop.What are the chances that if he even got on that free bus ride home, that he either got off before getting home, or got kicked off for behavior issues? I once took in a homeless relative with "issues" who was living in his car. There's a reason these people are wandering the trail, living in their cars, etc. Buying them bus tickets, taking them in, giving them money, etc., usually doesn't help to any great degree. It just moves them from one place and set of circumstances to another, but the behavior doesn't magically change. That takes medical/professional help. And sadly, often that doesn't help either.
Looks like Machete is in jail, and a hiker is reporting on Reddit of multiple stabbings north of Adkins. Damn it.
https://www.facebook.com/1595810457329838/posts/2332315560345987/
https://www.reddit.com/r/AppalachianTrail/comments/bnc2b3/current_hikers_multiple_stabbings_happened_last/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Uncle Joe
05-11-2019, 09:40
According to multiple FB pages he apparently made it back to the trail, attacked someone, and is back in custody.
BlackCloud
05-11-2019, 10:44
Thank God someone rushed to judge.
Still think this was a rush to judgment? Watching the fb video of 3 eyewitnesses made it pretty clear this man is a danger to society. Now someone has been attacked. When a person pulls out a knife a threatens you or your animal, you take it seriously.
4eyedbuzzard
05-11-2019, 10:50
Unconfirmed reports are that there are possibly two stabbing victims and that one woman may have died. The AT is reported to be closed from approx. Marion, VA to Bland, VA until Sunday morning while authorities search for more possible victims in what is being called a crime scene. Sovereign is in custody...again...
Not a lot of "official" news at this point, only that there is an incident and a crime scene in the area from Partnership Shelter in Sugar Grove, Va., to where the trail intersects with Highway 42. Wythe and Smyth County Sheriffs and VA State Police are involved.
Related articles:
https://wcyb.com/news/local/section-of-the-appalachian-trail-closed-following-incident
https://thetrek.co/section-appalachian-trail-closed-following-reported-assault/
Alligator
05-11-2019, 13:13
https://www.wjhl.com/local/section-of-appalachian-trail-in-swva-closed-due-to-investigation/1996343950
https://www.wsls.com/news/virginia/southwest-virginia/two-assaulted-on-appalachian-trail-in-wythe-county
4eyedbuzzard
05-11-2019, 13:16
Two victims. Status not reported. Machete recovered. Suspect in custody. https://www.wsls.com/news/virginia/southwest-virginia/two-assaulted-on-appalachian-trail-in-wythe-county
Unofficial reports from other sources are that the victims are one man and one woman. Some say both injured, some say one injured, one deceased.
greenmtnboy
05-11-2019, 19:53
I'm very sorry to hear about the terrible updates on this dangerous person. Earlier no one was willing to show up at court to testify against him, which I realize is a huge inconvenience. Hopefully this time there will be no reluctance to testify and law enforcement makes sure he gets real jail time.
Traffic Jam
05-11-2019, 20:57
I’m sick of violence. Sick of it.
Lone Wolf
05-11-2019, 21:42
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v0jXhgglTI&feature=youtu.be
generoll
05-11-2019, 22:35
Jailed with charges. Guy with little money needs a lawyer, hopefully he has a family member that will come to his aid. The guy was on a schedule 6 drug. https://discoveryplace.info/legal/drug-laws-tennessee/ That may be pot. What happens to the dog? He is a sick person needing help more than a dangerous criminal. I guess we can all sleep more soundly knowing dangerous people like "sovereign" is no longer a free man.
I wonder what sort of mindset let this guy go free.
4eyedbuzzard
05-11-2019, 22:44
I wonder what sort of mindset let this guy go free.The hikers assaulted in Unicoi Cty, TN roughly 3 weeks ago were apparently reluctant to press for assault charges, hang around or travel back as witnesses. The police/prosecutor probably had no other charges other than the sched 6 drugs, public intox, and giving a fictitious name. He pleaded guilty to those lesser charges and was released after he, or someone, paid his fine. He then wound up back on the trail. A shuttler bought him a bus ticket to try to get him to go home to MA, but obviously that didn't happen either. But yeah, he should have been locked up for assault (swinging a shovel at people and threatening them) and tried back in TN.
SkeeterPee
05-11-2019, 22:58
The hikers assaulted in Unicoi Cty, TN roughly 3 weeks ago were apparently reluctant to press for assault charges, hang around or travel back as witnesses.
Do you have any evidence of that? I've not read that. Perhaps the DA did not think he could win a case on so little evidence when no one was actually physically attacked at the time. Where is the evidence that the hikers would not prosecute?
4eyedbuzzard
05-11-2019, 23:34
Do you have any evidence of that? I've not read that. Perhaps the DA did not think he could win a case on so little evidence when no one was actually physically attacked at the time. Where is the evidence that the hikers would not prosecute?The hikers stated the nature of the assault regarding swinging the shovel, brandishing the knife, and threatening. Maybe that doesn't meet the level of what the police/prosecutor in TN wanted, I don't know. And yes, I and others are speculating regarding why, but the best guess is that the thru-hikers left because they wanted to move on with their hike. Maybe TN is different than the places I live, but with multiple eyewitnesses swearing to both physical actions (swinging shovel at people, brandishing the knife) and threats, he would have been charged with assault in either NH or TX if police had witnesses to testify. I can't imagine TN is any different. Assault charges don't require actual physical harm to be done, at least in most states. Add that he used a weapon (the shovel and knife) and they could have charged him with aggravated assault and locked him up for quite a while even if the victims never returned for the court date. Too bad they didn't.
Traffic Jam
05-11-2019, 23:36
There is only one person to blame.
Do you have any evidence of that? I've not read that. Perhaps the DA did not think he could win a case on so little evidence when no one was actually physically attacked at the time. Where is the evidence that the hikers would not prosecute?
it's in this article....and i think it made it into other news outlets articles...
https://wcyb.com/news/local/update-appalachian-trail-hiker-sentenced-to-probation
Lone Wolf
05-12-2019, 06:37
Do you have any evidence of that? I've not read that. Perhaps the DA did not think he could win a case on so little evidence when no one was actually physically attacked at the time. Where is the evidence that the hikers would not prosecute?
i spoke with a LEO yesterday that confirmed this
FrogLevel
05-12-2019, 06:38
I wonder what happened to the dog.
chknfngrs
05-12-2019, 06:47
I thought he made off to SNP?
As said above, I am also sick of violence.
Lone Wolf
05-12-2019, 06:49
he most likely got off the bus in Marion.
One Half
05-12-2019, 09:26
I wonder what sort of mindset let this guy go free.
The mindset that says we DON'T address mental health issues until someone commits a crime and then we put them in jail.
Or, if anything is done for mental health it's DRUGS that create more problems in WAY TOO MANY cases.
One Half
05-12-2019, 09:28
Is it possible that the hikers he attacked are the same ones he threatened previously?
bstiffler
05-12-2019, 11:03
Is it possible that the hikers he attacked are the same ones he threatened previously?
reports Ive seen said there was an incident in Unicoi where he threatened "other hikers" so probably not although I guess its always possible he bussed north and went southbound and caught up with them again but I doubt it.
chknfngrs
05-12-2019, 11:57
How sordid!!
Is it possible that the hikers he attacked are the same ones he threatened previously?
kythruhiker
05-12-2019, 12:11
Just turned into murder charges :(
https://wcyb.com/news/local/attack-on-the-appalachian-trail-turns-deadly-man-killed-suspect-charged?fbclid=IwAR1pr3A2pxMpF_ghRYIDYkkOa_94VPC8d mCDO2_0skD5FH_5_Rs9bpctE9g
BlackCloud
05-12-2019, 14:22
An interesting discussion would be what role the ATC could play in the future ? Could the ATC help thru hikers travel back for court and pay their way back to the trail so as to minimize the inconvenience and spread the cost to the AT community at large? Although violence on the AT is rare, it does seem to occur every several years and it detracts from the image of the trail and of outdoor recreation generally.
SWODaddy
05-12-2019, 14:30
An interesting discussion would be what role the ATC could play in the future ? Could the ATC help thru hikers travel back for court and pay their way back to the trail so as to minimize the inconvenience and spread the cost to the AT community at large? Although violence on the AT is rare, it does seem to occur every several years and it detracts from the image of the trail and of outdoor recreation generally.
:confused:
What? These are people on vacation. The ATC shouldn't have anything to do with this.
One Half
05-12-2019, 14:43
How sordid!!
I don't understand your response
One Half
05-12-2019, 14:44
An interesting discussion would be what role the ATC could play in the future ? Could the ATC help thru hikers travel back for court and pay their way back to the trail so as to minimize the inconvenience and spread the cost to the AT community at large? Although violence on the AT is rare, it does seem to occur every several years and it detracts from the image of the trail and of outdoor recreation generally.
why would the ATC do that? They have no ability or obligation to make sure people hiking it are safe.
One Half
05-12-2019, 14:51
TRAIL CLOSURE IN SOUTHWEST VIRGINIA LIFTED
(5/12/2019) The Saturday closure of the Appalachian Trail from Va. 16 at Mt. Rogers National Recreation Area Headquarters (mile 534.2) trail north to Va. 42 (mile 558.2) near Ceres/Groseclose has been lifted. However, any hikers with information relevant to the assaults that led to the closure are urged to contact the Wythe County Sheriff’s Office, (276) 223-6000. As more information is confirmed by law enforcement, we will post it here and on our social-media outlets.
per ATC:
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/trail-updates
4eyedbuzzard
05-12-2019, 14:53
:confused:
What? These are people on vacation. The ATC shouldn't have anything to do with this.Yeah, and getting attacked and then having to spend more time and money because the justice system cares more for accused criminal's rights than they do victims and witnesses really helps their vacation. I would gladly donate a few bucks to a gofundme account to reimburse hikers for their travel and expenses so that they could testify against criminals that perpetrate crimes against hikers on trails. And why shouldn't the ATC be involved? Part of their mission is trail safety.
SWODaddy
05-12-2019, 15:06
Yeah, and getting attacked and then having to spend more time and money because the justice system cares more for accused criminal's rights than they do victims and witnesses really helps their vacation. I would gladly donate a few bucks to a gofundme account to reimburse hikers for their travel and expenses so that they could testify against criminals that perpetrate crimes against hikers on trails. And why shouldn't the ATC be involved? Part of their mission is trail safety.
Well have at it then! Nobody is stopping you. Set something up - but don't expect some bureaucracy to bail you out for your lack of personal responsibility and/or planning.
bstiffler
05-12-2019, 15:13
Yeah, and getting attacked and then having to spend more time and money because the justice system cares more for accused criminal's rights than they do victims and witnesses really helps their vacation. I would gladly donate a few bucks to a gofundme account to reimburse hikers for their travel and expenses so that they could testify against criminals that perpetrate crimes against hikers on trails. And why shouldn't the ATC be involved? Part of their mission is trail safety.
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/home/about-us/mission-vision-values
where do you see that? last time I was on the trail it was hike at your own risk.
Yeah, and getting attacked and then having to spend more time and money because the justice system cares more for accused criminal's rights than they do victims and witnesses really helps their vacation. I would gladly donate a few bucks to a gofundme account to reimburse hikers for their travel and expenses so that they could testify against criminals that perpetrate crimes against hikers on trails. And why shouldn't the ATC be involved? Part of their mission is trail safety.This isn't a case of the justice system caring about accused rights more than victims. They did what they could without witnesses or victims willing to testify at trial. The 6th Amendment is still a thing.
I am going to interject in this conversation.
I have personally been in contact with the deceased hiker’s family and have been informed of some of what actually took place. This is all I will say.
The deceased hiker was a thru-hiker and had not met the attacker before the intendent. He did not provoke the attacker.
With that said, please keep in mind when posting in this thread that family and loved ones do sometimes come to WhiteBlaze to read the posts here and it is not helping the healing process for the family and loved ones to read some of the speculation and hearsay that gets posted here. The hiker’s family members have read some of this posts here and it has upset them. I don’t think most of you would be happy if you were in there situation.
Please keep this I mind and let’s nip this in the butt now. If it does not stop, I will close or even remove the thread for the web site.
~The Administration~
Berserker
05-12-2019, 15:46
The latest news on this just sucks…I mean it really just broke my heart to read about it. My prayers go out to the victims and families of the victims.
I’ve been following this thread fairly closely since it started, and have stayed out of it thus far due to the back and forth between those who believed this guy was a threat and those who were blowing it off based on the early conflicting news reports. I have personally run into a few individuals in all my time section hiking that made the hair on my neck stand up, and all the stuff I read/saw on this guy did just that.
I agree with those early on who stated that we shouldn’t be quick to judge, but at the same time we also need to stay safe and not be afraid to speak up when something doesn’t seem right. There were reports from actual hikers with firsthand experience (the newspaper report and the Facebook video linked in earlier posts are good examples) that clearly prove this guy was displaying erratic and violent behavior that is way outside of the normal oddball or eccentric personality type that is frequently seen on the AT.
As a place on web where AT hikers congregate, I think this was a good place to help get information out on this guy. So, I just want to thank those who posted information here about this situation when this whole thing started. We obviously don’t want to start a witch hunt, but we also shouldn’t disregard valid concerns that in this case were expressed by multiple individuals.
As to the tragic events that transpired, in my opinion we shouldn’t be commenting on the thrus that had run-ins with this guy and what they should or should not have done. Hindsight is always 20/20, and we won’t know what could have been done differently if anything until more details of what actually happened are available.
Yeah, and getting attacked and then having to spend more time and money because the justice system cares more for accused criminal's rights than they do victims and witnesses really helps their vacation. I would gladly donate a few bucks to a gofundme account to reimburse hikers for their travel and expenses so that they could testify against criminals that perpetrate crimes against hikers on trails. And why shouldn't the ATC be involved? Part of their mission is trail safety.
Despite the dismissal of this idea by some here the fact is many jurisdictions have "Victim Assistance" and "Victim Compensation" programs.
What a tragedy...too sad for words. Praying for victims and family.
chknfngrs
05-12-2019, 16:25
I just want to understand that the most recent proceedings are new....
greenmtnboy
05-12-2019, 16:27
CNN is running the story: https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/12/us/appalachian-trail-machete-attack/index.html
What a hideous turn of events.
chknfngrs
05-12-2019, 16:29
Scratch that. My wife just mentioned it, noting it’s in the papers. Someone somewhere didn’t do what they were supposed to do to recognize a problem. I said earlier that it would be messed up if this guy went back out and found the people who he first interacted with that brought this whole thing to light. What a mess!
Damn, this is terrible to hear.
What a nightmare.
imscotty
05-12-2019, 18:33
Here is a story with a bit more detail...
https://www.thedailybeast.com/james-jordan-charged-with-hacking-appalachian-trail-hiker-to-death-weeks-after-release-from-jail?source=TDB&via=FB_Page&fbclid=IwAR2D42bd1FO133ddHhoi1tGGGe_uwpZTvYyU6pLfh kGDekp81CxMHtkgC1Q
Two interesting statements. he "went after a group of four hikers camped out for the night" makes it sound like they were weekend campers, not thru-hikers. I might be reading to much into that.
Also, activated an SOS? I take that to mean the hiker had an inreach or similar device? Maybe not a weekender after all?
The girl played dead to survive.
SWODaddy
05-12-2019, 18:45
Washington Post has a story up, complete with an interview with Odie Norman
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/massachusetts-man-held-in-connection-with-brutal-attack-on-appalachian-trail-hikers/2019/05/12/b81c6a24-74ce-11e9-b3f5-5673edf2d127_story.html
BlackCloud
05-12-2019, 20:04
The image of the defendant looks like evil itself.
bamboo bob
05-12-2019, 20:12
So typical. Arrested but let go and kills. Justice system cares little for victims.
Emerson Bigills
05-12-2019, 20:24
Very sad. Feel so much for the victims and their families.
Hiking the AT is statistically very safe, but characters like this guy prey upon the lack of proximity to law enforcement that exists in the backwoods. I don't know the law and don't know the details, but when this cat was released in NC and then was back out there after the Unicoi County officials tried to intervene, I had a bad feeling. People threatening others with machetes do not belong on the trail and officials in towns should understand there is a problem with them.
greenmtnboy
05-12-2019, 20:47
Reading the articles, Washington Post, The Daily Beast, etc., it is clear this whack job was a daily and nightly menace, not just one nuisance event as it seemed to be earlier in the thread. Hikers have been reported and interdicted by law enforcement for far less. I find it astounding that "sovereign" was able to do as much damage as he was able to do.
FrogLevel
05-12-2019, 20:54
So typical. Arrested but let go and kills. Justice system cares little for victims.
It could have worked if the victims had wanted to show up to testify. I bet they're not feeling very good right now.
gpburdelljr
05-12-2019, 21:01
Also, activated an SOS? I take that to mean the hiker had an inreach or similar device? Maybe not a weekender after all?
One article said he sent the emergency SOS from his phone. I know you can do that with an iPhone, and probably other phones, but it only works if there is cell service.
FreeGoldRush
05-12-2019, 21:02
What is the exact mile number (AWOL or Guthook) where the attack took place? Was it at a shelter? If so, which one?
It's maddening that this guy wasn't held longer in Unicoi. He was clearly a danger to others. Condolences to the family of the lost hiker. I know that poor woman's life will ever be the same, either. It's frustratingly sad.
FrogLevel
05-12-2019, 21:16
"Its who we are" just posted this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZyirf318sM
They were evidently directly involved and escaped the attack.
Hiking the AT is statistically very safe...
Seven thru hikers (yes, thru hikers) have been murdered on the AT.
That said, the ATC spokesperson has already put this tragedy in perspective for the public, reminding everyone that the Trail sees 3 million visitors a year.
It's maddening that this guy wasn't held longer in Unicoi. He was clearly a danger to others. Condolences to the family of the lost hiker. I know that poor woman's life will ever be the same, either. It's frustratingly sad.
The authorities could only hold him for so long based on the minor charges that he aquired.....
the more "maddening" part would be that the other alleged victims didn't want to press charges and/or testify against him....
Sasquatch!
05-12-2019, 21:49
The authorities in Unicoi who declined to hold Sovereign for a mental health evaluation are likely going to face liability in the tens of millions of dollars.
saltysack
05-12-2019, 22:21
So sad....I pray for the families of those involved....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
SWODaddy
05-12-2019, 22:53
So typical. Arrested but let go and kills. Justice system cares little for victims.
The problem started when a person with a very obvious mental illness was out there in the first place.
chknfngrs
05-12-2019, 23:18
Wow. What a tragedy! I hope all victims involved can recover and move on. Just wow.
Southeast
05-13-2019, 01:09
"Its who we are" just posted this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZyirf318sM
They were evidently directly involved and escaped the attack.
I just saw that on my YT feed and watched it. Been watching them from before the trail. Glad they are safe. Terrible situation.
the more "maddening" part would be that the other alleged victims didn't want to press charges and/or testify against him....
My thoughts, exactly. I am also wondering if he was evaluated for involuntary commitment given his behavior.
chknfngrs
05-13-2019, 07:18
Wonder if trail registers in shelters will be reviewed? Not only thoughts of other hikers but if this guy visited shelters and entered his own rants?
Wonder if trail registers in shelters will be reviewed? Not only thoughts of other hikers but if this guy visited shelters and entered his own rants?
He was leaving bat****, nonsensical entries in the shelter registers. It was like reading schizophrenia.
A tragedy for all- families, friends, the AT community. The victim bravely called SOS, and, by giving his location, he helped law enforcement apprehend the perpetrator before anyone else was hurt. People will respond here with anger, sadness, and bargaining. Be patient as we grieve.
Prayers with each step,
Ardency
double d
05-13-2019, 08:42
"Its who we are" just posted this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZyirf318sM
They were evidently directly involved and escaped the attack.
Thank you for posting this youtube video and I'm just glad that these two (That's Who We Are) survived, because it sounds like they were being tracked-targeted.
Its just hard to process this endless violence in the U.S. or how this guy ended up on the AT and committed murder. I'm sure we'll hear a lot about mental illness (especially untreated), the CJS, violent crime, etc regarding this murder.
The AT has always been a great community of hikers and that will certainly continue and again, I'm glad that these two young hikers survived and will continue to live their lives the way they wish to.
double d
05-13-2019, 08:43
A tragedy for all- families, friends, the AT community. The victim bravely called SOS, and, by giving his location, he helped law enforcement apprehend the perpetrator before anyone else was hurt. People will respond here with anger, sadness, and bargaining. Be patient as we grieve.
Prayers with each step,
Ardency
Thank you Ardency, well said.
Its just hard to process this endless violence in the U.S.
this place and time is one of, if not the, most safest places and times in all of human history.
its our perception and how much we hear about violence, not the actual rate at which violence occurs, that are the issue.
i once worked a customer service job. i sat all day everyday answering an unending stream of complaint calls from angry customers. hundreds a day. must be a crappy company if they have so many unhappy customers, right? one of the first things the person who trained me did was show me how to look through all the records of the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people who were customers for 25 years and never called to complain once. the company was actually great, they just hired enough people to answer the amount of calls they received and to keep us all busy instead of sitting around.
the way we perceive the violence level of our society is sort of like that.
45163
Sasquatch!
05-13-2019, 11:01
Sovereign was clearly exhibiting common signs of schizophrenia. The Unicoi County Sheriff is responsible for this tragedy. Sovereign should have been transferred from jail to a psychiatric hospital for evaluation. This is an example of a clearly preventable tragedy, which occurs all too often.
this place and time is one of, if not the, most safest places and times in all of human history.
its our perception and how much we hear about violence, not the actual rate at which violence occurs, that are the issue.
i once worked a customer service job. i sat all day everyday answering an unending stream of complaint calls from angry customers. hundreds a day. must be a crappy company if they have so many unhappy customers, right? one of the first things the person who trained me did was show me how to look through all the records of the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people who were customers for 25 years and never called to complain once. the company was actually great, they just hired enough people to answer the amount of calls they received and to keep us all busy instead of sitting around.
the way we perceive the violence level of our society is sort of like that.
45163
Well said tdoczi. This was clearly a tragedy, but our perceptions of the level of violence do not match the reality. I think the internet is partly to blame. Bad news spreads faster than good.
here's an article with more information..
https://wcyb.com/news/local/court-docs-one-of-appalachian-trail-stabbing-victims-played-dead-to-stay-alive
Well said tdoczi. This was clearly a tragedy, but our perceptions of the level of violence do not match the reality. I think the internet is partly to blame. Bad news spreads faster than good.
i like to lay most of the blame on CNN starting a chain of events that turned the news into a product to be sold and profited from.
imscotty
05-13-2019, 11:51
Sovereign was clearly exhibiting common signs of schizophrenia. The Unicoi County Sheriff is responsible for this tragedy. Sovereign should have been transferred from jail to a psychiatric hospital for evaluation. This is an example of a clearly preventable tragedy, which occurs all too often.
I'm afraid the ability for authorities to involuntary commit someone who is showing signs of being mentally ill is severely limited.
I'm afraid the ability for authorities to involuntary commit someone who is showing signs of being mentally ill is severely limited.
whats better, to leave some people free who should be committed, or to commit people who should be left alone? once you correctly realize perfection is not possible, thats the choice you're left with. which do you prefer? i know my answer, and not by a little bit. not even debatable.
SWODaddy
05-13-2019, 12:23
this place and time is one of, if not the, most safest places and times in all of human history.
its our perception and how much we hear about violence, not the actual rate at which violence occurs, that are the issue.
i once worked a customer service job. i sat all day everyday answering an unending stream of complaint calls from angry customers. hundreds a day. must be a crappy company if they have so many unhappy customers, right? one of the first things the person who trained me did was show me how to look through all the records of the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people who were customers for 25 years and never called to complain once. the company was actually great, they just hired enough people to answer the amount of calls they received and to keep us all busy instead of sitting around.
the way we perceive the violence level of our society is sort of like that.
45163
This is very true. The present day is one of the safest periods in the last 60+years.
This is very true. The present day is one of the safest periods in the last 60+years.
some people who like to argue against me may point to some data that shows a slight uptick the past couple of years, meaning like 2016 was slightly safer than 2018. to the degree this is even true to claim that the hysteria over how violent our society is a product of this possible slight recent uptick is a silly argument to try and make.
FlyPaper
05-13-2019, 12:33
whats better, to leave some people free who should be committed, or to commit people who should be left alone? once you correctly realize perfection is not possible, thats the choice you're left with. which do you prefer? i know my answer, and not by a little bit. not even debatable.
Based on your last few posts, you're a wise person.
I would add that we shouldn't judge the choices made by others in this case unless we know the full scope of their constraints and potential outcomes. For example, should the thru-hikers stayed and testified? Who knows? We'd have to know the likely result as understood by them at the time. Stick around for two weeks so the guy could be fined more and given a longer probation period? Perhaps that's all that was available. I doubt he'd have been locked up very long no matter what. We don't really know. Also, keep in mind that even what we think we know might contain a good bit of misinformation.
SWODaddy
05-13-2019, 12:35
Sovereign was clearly exhibiting common signs of schizophrenia. The Unicoi County Sheriff is responsible for this tragedy. Sovereign should have been transferred from jail to a psychiatric hospital for evaluation. This is an example of a clearly preventable tragedy, which occurs all too often.
The hands of the police are often tied in matters like this. If he is a paranoid schizophrenic (sounds like he is, but I didn't stay at a holiday in express last night), then I have more questions for his family who let him wander around in the woods untreated, or society at large which now sends people like this home with a handful of pills to keep them sane. I always err on the side of personal freedom, but I think there's a strong case to be made that paranoid schizophrenics are a danger....and I highly doubt the Unicoi police were the first to observe that behavior.
Having dealt with mental illness and involuntary commitment with a family member, I can say that the entire system is screwed up. Law enforcement often times aren't trained properly, or they are understaffed, or there isn't bed space in a mental facility to take the person. Too often, It's a no win situation for all involved.
LittleRock
05-13-2019, 13:01
here's an article with more information..
https://wcyb.com/news/local/court-docs-one-of-appalachian-trail-stabbing-victims-played-dead-to-stay-alive
Based on the information in this article, the location of the attack was most likely the well-used campsite at Reed Creek, about 2 miles south of Tilson Gap on the AT.
The article said "the four made camp in Wythe County", where only a short segment of about 4 miles of the AT runs between Little Brushy Mtn and Tilson Gap, with the campsite at Reed Creek near its center. The article also said "The victim received assistance to help her hike six miles into Smyth County", which is SOBO on the AT. The nearest road SOBO is VA 617 which is about 6 miles from the campsite at Reed Creek.
Most likely the victim ran SOBO because she'd been hiking NOBO and when panicked and hiking in the dark it makes most sense to reverse course. Would have been quicker to head NOBO where to VA 610 with hostel nearby after only 4 miles, but she probably wouldn't have known this unless she'd been planning to stop there.
Very unfortunate situation - my condolences to the victim's family.
Details of the criminal complaint from the Daily Beast. The article includes a quote from Sovereign's brother's fiancee. (Although this article doesn't give the brother's full name, CNN Wire identifies him as Dustin Wildes.)
https://www.thedailybeast.com/appalachian-trail-machete-attack-survivor-played-dead-to-escape-suspect-james-l-jordan
greenmtnboy
05-13-2019, 14:13
Here is the criminal complaint: https://www.masslive.com/capecod/2019/05/read-the-affidavit-james-jordan-of-massachusetts-accused-of-murder-on-the-appalachian-trail.html
This sounds like a lot of peevish paranoia to me, what ever happened to "mind your own business" and "forgive and forget"?
I've never seen such judgmental, intolerant and overly jaundiced hair trigger reactions as exists especially around the AT. Unless you fit into the "good" stereotypes that get left alone, you could easily be wrongly branded and stigmatized by people and reported. Life is full of thousands of types of people, why are people so quick to judge and report stuff?
I hope all the people who made negative comments in the beginning rethink their comments.
perdidochas
05-13-2019, 14:31
One article said he sent the emergency SOS from his phone. I know you can do that with an iPhone, and probably other phones, but it only works if there is cell service.
Another alternative is to get a satellite enable GPS device, like the Garmin InReach or SPOT.
I'm afraid the ability for authorities to involuntary commit someone who is showing signs of being mentally ill is severely limited.
Why is this the case? In Florida, someone can be Baker Acted (held for 3 day evaluation) if he/she is a danger to his/her self or others. All that's needed is approval by a LEO superior .
greenmtnboy
05-13-2019, 14:43
I hope all the people who made negative comments in the beginning rethink their comments.
Why do you keep throwing this in my face?
In the beginning of the thread based on the reporting here which is not a news site, about all we knew about this sicko was that he was a pot smoking drifter with a guitar and dog companion and some type of knife, though reports differed then, obviously someone who was off his rocker and disturbing AT hikers. A report of harassment got strong hiker Ward Leonard (3X thrus in 1 year!) kicked off the trail put in jail and barred from hiking the AT. From what I have seen it has not taken much to get problem hikers bounced from the AT, I don't know how this sicko was able to keep up his spree of threatening behavior. That is what we know now and I did not know then. I reacted initially in a knee jerk way. What else can we do now except offer condolences and any other help possible to those who were attacked and the family of the murder victim.
Offshore
05-13-2019, 14:45
I am going to interject in this conversation.
I have personally been in contact with the deceased hiker’s family and have been informed of some of what actually took place. This is all I will say.
The deceased hiker was a thru-hiker and had not met the attacker before the intendent. He did not provoke the attacker.
With that said, please keep in mind when posting in this thread that family and loved ones do sometimes come to WhiteBlaze to read the posts here and it is not helping the healing process for the family and loved ones to read some of the speculation and hearsay that gets posted here. The hiker’s family members have read some of this posts here and it has upset them. I don’t think most of you would be happy if you were in there situation.
Please keep this I mind and let’s nip this in the butt now. If it does not stop, I will close or even remove the thread for the web site.
~The Administration~
The plea to check the rumors and groundless speculation for the sake of the family is understandable. As far as being in touch with the family - hopefully they reached out to you and you didn't contact them based solely on an association with a special-interest non-news website (and I'd say the same for the Trek.co, /r/AppalachianTrail, BPL, and even the ATC), especially since the encounter added very little to the public understanding of the events.
Sasquatch!
05-13-2019, 14:51
I'm afraid the ability for authorities to involuntary commit someone who is showing signs of being mentally ill is severely limited.
While the law varies from state to state it is common for mentally ill inmates to be court ordered to undergo psychiatric evaluation. However, due to the inherent expense, such an evaluation often does not occur in the many areas, especially rural ones. Unicoi County is going to have to shell out millions of dollars because they negligently released a dangerous individual without having said individual evaluated. Unicoi knew Sovereign was dangerous and was displaying signs of schizophrenia. However, Unicoi County simply did not want to deal with the problem.
Shooting Star
05-13-2019, 14:56
Right - a broader context is everything and that seems to have gotten lost here with authorities that had a chance to do something timely. Some of the other AT murders involving disturbed people also have a similar pattern. In this guy's case, he was walking around with a visibly lit fuse and authorities still found a way to not take him out of circulation. Not sure what the answer is since colorful characters are part of what makes the AT what it is - we'll learn something from this one.
in the case of a moving target such as you describe the other issue becomes that the pattern of behavior is not apparent to any one of the agencies that might have had cause to interact with him. if there was such a thing as the "AT police" (not to suggest there should be) they might have been in some sort of position to do something.
FreeGoldRush
05-13-2019, 14:58
This appears to have happened at mile 552.3 (2019 AWOL Guide). Anyone have a better guess?
Sasquatch!
05-13-2019, 15:03
While it is hard to make sense of your post. The issue here is Sovereign was arrested for assault weeks before the murder. It is here where Mr. Jordan should have received a psychiatric evaluation by a qualified mental health professional. At that point the circumstances of Mr. Jordan's arrest, along with Mr. Jordan displaying clear signs of schizophrenia, would have necessitated that he be hospitalized. Mr. Jordan would have then received the treatment he needs to not be a danger to society.
The Unicoi County Sherrif failed to have Mr. Jordan evaluated for competency. Currently, Mr. Jordan has been ordered to undergo such an evaluation by the U.S. District Court in Abingdon, Virginia. Too bad it's only after he killed someone.
The plea to check the rumors and groundless speculation for the sake of the family is understandable. As far as being in touch with the family - hopefully they reached out to you and you didn't contact them based solely on an association with a special-interest non-news website (and I'd say the same for the Trek.co, /r/AppalachianTrail, BPL, and even the ATC), especially since the encounter added very little to the public understanding of the events.
The family reached out to me. I would never reach out to anyone in the manner you are speaking of. I can not speak for any other people that have been in contact with the family.
That is what we know now and I did not know then.
I cannot fault you.
The ATC (among others) constantly reminds the public how very, very safe the AT is. And that informs perceptions.
In fact, within a very short time of this most recent tragedy they had a spokesman reminding us of just that -- and to bring the point home he remind everyone that the AT sees 3 million visitors a year-- the clear implication being this horrific event is a statistical blip. Could anyone else see that coming?
Forgetting, of course, that 7 thru hikers (yes, thru hikers) and one long distance section hiker have been murdered on the Trail proper.
No way to spin those numbers.
That said, the fairytale that has been painted for so long will endure.
Offshore
05-13-2019, 15:27
The family reached out to me. I would never reach out to anyone in the manner you are speaking of. I can not speak for any other people that have been in contact with the family.
That's good to hear. Kudos to you for lending support.
Shooting Star
05-13-2019, 15:45
Being crazy and threatening people with lethal weapons should be enough to detain anyone for quite a while. We routinely lock up people of color for a decade for simple pot possession. The system failed these hikers and Mr Jordan as well. He should have gotten mental help somewhere and a hiker would still be alive. Instead, someone is dead and now we'll get around to spending the same time and money to see what makes Mr Jordan tick. Only now it is as prep for a criminal trial.
While it is hard to make sense of your post. The issue here is Sovereign was arrested for assault weeks before the murder. It is here where Mr. Jordan should have received a psychiatric evaluation by a qualified mental health professional. At that point the circumstances of Mr. Jordan's arrest, along with Mr. Jordan displaying clear signs of schizophrenia, would have necessitated that he be hospitalized. Mr. Jordan would have then received the treatment he needs to not be a danger to society.
The Unicoi County Sherrif failed to have Mr. Jordan evaluated for competency. Currently, Mr. Jordan has been ordered to undergo such an evaluation by the U.S. District Court in Abingdon, Virginia. Too bad it's only after he killed someone.
This appears to have happened at mile 552.3 (2019 AWOL Guide). Anyone have a better guess?
here's what the ATC put out about it....
"(5/12/2019) The Saturday closure of the Appalachian Trail from Va. 16 at Mt. Rogers National Recreation Area Headquarters (mile 534.2) trail north to Va. 42 (mile 558.2) near Ceres/Groseclose has been lifted. "
SWODaddy
05-13-2019, 16:29
Being crazy and threatening people with lethal weapons should be enough to detain anyone for quite a while. We routinely lock up people of color for a decade for simple pot possession. The system failed these hikers and Mr Jordan as well. He should have gotten mental help somewhere and a hiker would still be alive. Instead, someone is dead and now we'll get around to spending the same time and money to see what makes Mr Jordan tick. Only now it is as prep for a criminal trial.
What part of "they declined to press charges" don't you understand? They charged him for what they could with nobody who was willing to press charges. Funny that you inject the race card "simple pot possession" garbage when pot possession is one of the few things they could detain him for.
4eyedbuzzard
05-13-2019, 18:47
While the law varies from state to state it is common for mentally ill inmates to be court ordered to undergo psychiatric evaluation. However, due to the inherent expense, such an evaluation often does not occur in the many areas, especially rural ones. Unicoi County is going to have to shell out millions of dollars because they negligently released a dangerous individual without having said individual evaluated. Unicoi knew Sovereign was dangerous and was displaying signs of schizophrenia. However, Unicoi County simply did not want to deal with the problem.
While it is hard to make sense of your post. The issue here is Sovereign was arrested for assault weeks before the murder. It is here where Mr. Jordan should have received a psychiatric evaluation by a qualified mental health professional. At that point the circumstances of Mr. Jordan's arrest, along with Mr. Jordan displaying clear signs of schizophrenia, would have necessitated that he be hospitalized. Mr. Jordan would have then received the treatment he needs to not be a danger to society.
The Unicoi County Sherrif failed to have Mr. Jordan evaluated for competency. Currently, Mr. Jordan has been ordered to undergo such an evaluation by the U.S. District Court in Abingdon, Virginia. Too bad it's only after he killed someone.Police possibly could have held him for mental illness examination and involuntary treatment as a danger to himself and others. But they didn't despite at least some evidence to that effect. There is a process for police to do this, starting with this form https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/mentalhealth/documents/CON_Fillable%20Form.pdf Why they didn't is anybody's guess, but I'll bet it's not as easy as the form makes it look, and there are significant costs and resources involved.
What part of "they declined to press charges" don't you understand? They charged him for what they could with nobody who was willing to press charges. Funny that you inject the race card "simple pot possession" garbage when pot possession is one of the few things they could detain him for.[EDITS: Note edits to this post after checking TN court rules]There is some confusion expressed here regarding "pressing charges" and such. People/victims can't "press charges". Crimes are prosecuted as "The People vs XXX." It's a criminal case, not a civil one. Victims and witnesses only swear out statements. Police/prosecutors decide if and what charges to bring in a complaint based upon witness/victim statements and other evidence. From what we can figure out, those hikers may have refused to make sworn statements, which makes it much tougher for authorities at a preliminary/probable cause hearing. Now, even if the victims/witnesses refused to make formal statements, police did still have their hearsay evidence from them regarding the shovel assault and knife brandishing which could possibly have been used at a hearing [EDIT: allowed under fed and some states, but not under TN court rules]- but not at a trial. But, knowing that the victims/witnesses wouldn't likely come back or be reluctant to incur the time and expense of doing so (as they were thru-hiking) police/prosecutor perhaps CHOSE not to charge him on the assault and let him plea out to what they could easily get - the three lesser offenses, fine, and probation.
But, maybe they could have CHOSEN to charge him based on the assault hearsay and other evidence anyway (I don't know the TN law, I'm not a TN lawyer, but hearsay is often admissible at hearings) - and if the judge agreed - kept him locked up longer until he made reasonable bail or if unable, even until the witnesses didn't show for court appearance at trial. [EDIT: I checked and while witness are not required to be present at preliminary hearings under Federal and some states rules, they are in TN]
The witnesses would haveto be [EDIT: compelled to testify] subpoenaed, located and personally served, likely in another state, somewhere on the AT between Unicoi County and Maine... Probably not a case most rural governments want to spend a lot of money and resources on. Maybe the police/prosecutor did try to charge him for assault, but the judge dismissed the charges for insufficient evidence, or other reasons (like Sovereign acting remorsefully and/or the whole reluctant witness situation). Bringing a case like this would burden financial and other resources for the local courts and police with only little likelihood of success.
So, sad to say, but I think a lot of why he wasn't locked up, beyond the hikers refusal to swear out statements, was probably governed by financial and manpower considerations. [EDIT: and that at this point, while what happened was an assault (with weapon), no one had been injured yet, just really scared. Pretty tough for LE to justify going to extreme measures when there weren't any physical injuries.]
There are some other questions that should be asked: How much was the fine in Unicoi Cty., and how did he paid it? Because he was reported by hikers not to have much if any money. After getting out, a shuttle driver bought him a bus ticket to get him home to MA. He obviously didn't get there. Did he get thrown off the bus or get off on his own further up the trail? Did he ever get on the bus? Did the ticket get refunded in total or partially (he needed money)? There was some well meaning, but misplaced, enabling going on as well.
Shooting Star
05-13-2019, 18:49
The hikers declined to press charges for the threats, assault, whatever, but the local authorities had him on some possession changes,
so local authorities (including the Judicial system) could have used this to hold on to an obviously dangerous person and get a psych eval
done before cutting him loose on the world.
My point about the race comment is that we lock up people all the time for non-trivial sentences when we want to.
I this case, we could have used other charges to do the right thing and protect the public from a troubled man. We chose
not to - why? I'm not suggesting race was why, I think it was a time and money issue by law enforcement in a county
with a lot of good people in it that is hard strapped for resources.
My bigger point is that this guy was an obvious time bomb waiting to cook off and any law enforcement that encountered
him once he showed up on the AT needs to reconsider policy in these type of cases. This one was 100% preventable and
the public was poorly served in my opinion.
What part of "they declined to press charges" don't you understand? They charged him for what they could with nobody who was willing to press charges. Funny that you inject the race card "simple pot possession" garbage when pot possession is one of the few things they could detain him for.
Sasquatch!
05-13-2019, 19:01
Police possibly could have held him for mental illness examination and involuntary treatment as a danger to himself and others. But they didn't despite at least some evidence to that effect. There is a process for police to do this, starting with this form https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/mentalhealth/documents/CON_Fillable%20Form.pdf Why they didn't is anybody's guess, but I'll bet it's not as easy as the form makes it look, and there are significant costs and resources involved.
There is some confusion expressed here regarding "pressing charges" and such. People/victims can't "press charges". Crimes are prosecuted as "The People vs XXX." It's a criminal case, not a civil one. Victims and witnesses only swear out statements. Police/prosecutors decide if and what charges to bring in a complaint based upon witness/victim statements and other evidence. From what we can figure out, those hikers may have refused to make sworn statements, which makes it much tougher for authorities at a preliminary/probable cause hearing. Now, even if the victims/witnesses refused to make formal statements, police did still have their hearsay evidence from them regarding the shovel assault and knife brandishing which could possibly have been used at a hearing - but not at a trial. But, knowing that the victims/witnesses wouldn't likely come back or be reluctant to incur the time and expense of doing so (as they were thru-hiking) police/prosecutor perhaps CHOSE not to charge him on the assault and let him plea out to what they could easily get - the three lesser offenses, fine, and probation.
But, maybe they could have CHOSEN to charge him on the assault based upon the hearsay and other evidence anyway (I don't know, I'm not a TN lawyer) - and if the judge agreed - kept him locked up longer until he made reasonable bail or if unable, even until the witnesses didn't show for court appearance at trial. The witnesses would have to be subpoenaed, located and personally served, likely in another state, somewhere on the AT between Unicoi County and Maine... Probably not a case most rural governments want to spend a lot of money and resources on. Maybe the police/prosecutor did try to charge him for assault, but the judge dismissed the charges for insufficient evidence, or other reasons (like Sovereign acting remorsefully and/or the whole reluctant witness situation). Bringing a case like this would burden financial and other resources for the local courts and police with only little likelihood of success.
So, sad to say, but I think a lot of why he wasn't locked up, beyond the hikers refusal to swear out statements, was probably governed by financial and manpower considerations.
There are some other questions that should be asked: How much was the fine in Unicoi Cty., and how did he paid it? Because he was reported by hikers not to have much if any money. After getting out, a shuttle driver bought him a bus ticket to get him home to MA. He obviously didn't get there. Did he get thrown off the bus or get off on his own further up the trail? Did he ever get on the bus? Did the ticket get refunded in total or partially (he needed money)? There was some well meaning, but misplaced, enabling going on as well.
Mr. Jordan pleaded guilty to multiple crimes. As a condition of his probation and/or release the judge should have ordered he undergo a psychiatric evaluation. The court has wide latitude in this regard. Instead they basically let him go without any stipulations. It is likely many employees of Unicoi County recognized how severely Ill Mr. Jordan is, and simply did not want to deal with it. So, they turned him loose to become someone else's problem, which he quickly did.
SWODaddy
05-13-2019, 19:14
The hikers declined to press charges for the threats, assault, whatever, but the local authorities had him on some possession changes,
so local authorities (including the Judicial system) could have used this to hold on to an obviously dangerous person and get a psych eval
done before cutting him loose on the world.
My point about the race comment is that we lock up people all the time for non-trivial sentences when we want to.
I this case, we could have used other charges to do the right thing and protect the public from a troubled man. We chose
not to - why? I'm not suggesting race was why, I think it was a time and money issue by law enforcement in a county
with a lot of good people in it that is hard strapped for resources.
My bigger point is that this guy was an obvious time bomb waiting to cook off and any law enforcement that encountered
him once he showed up on the AT needs to reconsider policy in these type of cases. This one was 100% preventable and
the public was poorly served in my opinion.
So... you have an irrational understanding proven false by the circumstances of the case (he wasn't detained for a lengthy period for possession), but you wish they violared his rights anyways because....reasons?
This is the first coverage I've seen that mentions his prior criminal history. https://boston.cbslocal.com/2019/05/13/appalachian-trail-murder-virginia-james-jordan-west-yarmouth-massachusetts/
SWODaddy
05-13-2019, 19:31
There is some confusion expressed here regarding "pressing charges" and such. People/victims can't "press charges". Crimes are prosecuted as "The People vs XXX." It's a criminal case, not a civil one. Victims and witnesses only swear out statements. Police/prosecutors decide if and what charges to bring in a complaint based upon witness/victim statements and other evidence. From what we can figure out, those hikers may have refused to make sworn statements, which makes it much tougher for authorities at a preliminary/probable cause hearing. Now, even if the victims/witnesses refused to make formal statements, police did still have their hearsay evidence from them regarding the shovel assault and knife brandishing which could possibly have been used at a hearing - but not at a trial. But, knowing that the victims/witnesses wouldn't likely come back or be reluctant to incur the time and expense of doing so (as they were thru-hiking) police/prosecutor perhaps CHOSE not to charge him on the assault and let him plea out to what they could easily get - the three lesser offenses, fine, and probation.
But, maybe they could have CHOSEN to charge him on the assault based upon the hearsay and other evidence anyway (I don't know the TN law, I'm not a TN lawyer, but hearsay is often admissible at hearings) - and if the judge agreed - kept him locked up longer until he made reasonable bail or if unable, even until the witnesses didn't show for court appearance at trial. The witnesses would have to be subpoenaed, located and personally served, likely in another state, somewhere on the AT between Unicoi County and Maine... Probably not a case most rural governments want to spend a lot of money and resources on. Maybe the police/prosecutor did try to charge him for assault, but the judge dismissed the charges for insufficient evidence, or other reasons (like Sovereign acting remorsefully and/or the whole reluctant witness situation). Bringing a case like this would burden financial and other resources for the local courts and police with only little likelihood of success.
So, sad to say, but I think a lot of why he wasn't locked up, beyond the hikers refusal to swear out statements, was probably governed by financial and manpower considerations.
There are some other questions that should be asked: How much was the fine in Unicoi Cty., and how did he paid it? Because he was reported by hikers not to have much if any money. After getting out, a shuttle driver bought him a bus ticket to get him home to MA. He obviously didn't get there. Did he get thrown off the bus or get off on his own further up the trail? Did he ever get on the bus? Did the ticket get refunded in total or partially (he needed money)? There was some well meaning, but misplaced, enabling going on as well.
The confusion is yours - I am correctly quoting the sheriff.
"The fact is nobody wanted to step up to the plate and press charges," Hensley said. "They were on the trail walking and they didn't want to come back — they told my investigators that."
Yes, people "press" charges in circumstances like this (being threatened...and the only evidence is your word) - the first hikers he threatened didn't take the time to provide a statement. Prosecutors "charge." Blaming the police is silly.
SWODaddy
05-13-2019, 19:38
Anyone remember the paranoid schizophrenic who drowned trying to ford the Kennebec last year? People here blamed the cops for that one too.
https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/129600-Hiker-Killed-Fording-the-Kennebec/page5
Maybe the lesson to be learned here is that people with family members who have severe mental illness shouldn't let them wander the wilderness?
4eyedbuzzard
05-13-2019, 20:03
The confusion is yours - I am correctly quoting the sheriff.
Yes, people "press" charges in circumstances like this (being threatened...and the only evidence is your word) - the first hikers he threatened didn't take the time to provide a statement. Prosecutors "charge." Blaming the police is silly.I'm not blaming the police/prosecutors. They have real financial and manpower concerns. I'm just presenting the options they had. Private people/witnesses/victims don't get to decide on what is and what isn't charged in a criminal complaint. It's not the way it works.
https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2015/12/pressing-charges-what-does-it-mean-and-who-does-it.html
One Half
05-13-2019, 20:09
I am going to ask people to stop repeating the murderers name, even his trail name.
When the names of the victims are released, let's honor them. Let their story be told. Remember THEIR names.
Anyone remember the paranoid schizophrenic who drowned trying to ford the Kennebec last year? People here blamed the cops for that one too.
https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/129600-Hiker-Killed-Fording-the-Kennebec/page5
Maybe the lesson to be learned here is that people with family members who have severe mental illness shouldn't let them wander the wilderness?How do you propose they do that? Lock them in the basement? In my state, I have absolutely no right to involuntary commit anyone. I can provide a statement to law enforcement or a doctor, but ultimately it's a judge's call.
greenmtnboy
05-13-2019, 20:29
This is the first coverage I've seen that mentions his prior criminal history. https://boston.cbslocal.com/2019/05/13/appalachian-trail-murder-virginia-james-jordan-west-yarmouth-massachusetts/
I don't understand how the Unicoi police don't have access to that information. And to put them financially liable for what happened later though they followed the law doesn't make sense. How would ordering a psych evaluation be mandatory on them? And on witnesses to a crime and threats being logistically unwilling to testify, could have been addressed by some phone calls and an incentive to do so. I believe going down and filing a complaint with the local precinct and desk sergeant on real offenses and abuses is a civic responsibility.
I don't understand how the Unicoi police don't have access to that information. And to put them financially liable for what happened later though they followed the law doesn't make sense. How would ordering a psych evaluation be mandatory on them? And on witnesses to a crime and threats being logistically unwilling to testify, could have been addressed by some phone calls and an incentive to do so. I believe going down and filing a complaint with the local precinct and desk sergeant on real offenses and abuses is a civic responsibility.It's possible Massachusetts wouldn't extradite him, so Unicoi wouldn't have been able to hold him for those warrants.
Edit to add: If they thought he was a danger to himself or others, they could have filed an emergency order of detention and held him for up to 72 hours for an evaluation.
I'm not blaming the police/prosecutors. They have real financial and manpower concerns. I'm just presenting the options they had. Private people/witnesses/victims don't get to decide on what is and what isn't charged in a criminal complaint. It's not the way it works.
https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2015/12/pressing-charges-what-does-it-mean-and-who-does-it.html Really? Then why was I asked 2 years ago if I wanted to proceed with pressing charges against the guy who break into my vehicle a year prior to them catching the guy. He stole a couple thousand dollars worth of stuff which would be a felony in CA. The use of the words "Press Charges" was from the sheriff deputy handling the investigation; or rather handling a related investigation on the same guy who was in their holding cell for an unrelated charge. If I wasn't willing to, it was made clear they could not (or would not) charge him for the crime. Likely related to no victim, then no crime. Now, the prosecutor could have chosen to not prosecute anyway (no matter what I wanted) if they didn't feel the evidence was sufficient, but it didn't seem like they could have prosecuted him for my break-in without my cooperation and willingness.
Remember that police can only arrest and charge for felonies, and misdemeanors committed in their presence. Otherwise it is completely on the victim to press charges.
mclaught
05-13-2019, 21:08
Original post removed as unnecessary. Agree that it's a tragedy all around and frankly I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.
That is not a correct statement of the law. While laws are different state by state, there is no state that requires felonies to be committed in the presence of an LEO for either an arrest or prosecution. There's been a lot of misstatement of the law in this thread, but this was the easiest one to correct.That's not what I meant. Let me edit and put a comma in.
4eyedbuzzard
05-13-2019, 21:37
Really? Then why was I asked 2 years ago if I wanted to proceed with pressing charges against the guy who break into my vehicle a year prior to them catching the guy. This was the words of the sheriff deputy handling the investigation; or rather handling a related investigation on the same guy who was in their holding cell for an unrelated charge. If I wasn't willing to, it was made clear they could not (or would not) charge him for the crime. Likely related to no victim, then no crime. Now, the prosecutor could have chosen to not prosecute anyway (no matter what I wanted) if they didn't feel the evidence was sufficient, but it didn't seem like they could have prosecuted him for my break-in without my cooperation and willingness.Because they really don't care and don't want to go to the extreme of treating you as a material witness for a property crime that isn't that important in the scope of things. Your property crime just isn't important enough for them to do that much work if you don't give a $#!t about it. But don't think that you can't be subpoenaed to appear as a witness to a crime, even if you are the victim, just because you don't want to. If the case is serious enough, they can even arrest you on a material witness warrant, haul you in front of a judge, make you post an appearance bond/bail, or even detain you to ensure your appearance as a witness. And if you refuse to testify in court, you can be jailed for contempt for the duration of the trial.
Remember that police can only arrest and charge for felonies and misdemeanors committed in their presence. Otherwise it is completely on the victim to press charges.Really? You might want to rethink that. Because not all victims can testify anymore, can they? And then there's this little thing called probable cause. Police don't have to witness a crime to arrest you. They only need probable cause [edit - for felonies].
Because they really don't care and don't want to go to the extreme of treating you as a material witness for a property crime that isn't that important in the scope of things. Your property crime just isn't important enough for them to do that much work if you don't give a $#!t about it. But don't think that you can't be subpoenaed to appear as a witness to a crime, even if you are the victim, just because you don't want to. If the case is serious enough, they can even arrest you on a material witness warrant, haul you in front of a judge, make you post an appearance bond/bail, or even detain you to ensure your appearance as a witness. And if you refuse to testify in court, you can be jailed for contempt for the duration of the trial.
Really? You might want to rethink that. Because not all victims can testify anymore, can they? And then there's this little thing called probable cause. Police don't have to witness a crime to arrest you. They only need probable cause.
I edited to add critical punctuation. It's been a long day, I'm going to bed.
Bluebearee
05-13-2019, 22:12
This YouTube vid has now been removed and I didn't get there in time. Could anyone give me the clif notes version? It was made by the two hikers who were not assaulted but headed NOBO away from the incident?
Southeast
05-13-2019, 22:19
This YouTube vid has now been removed and I didn't get there in time. Could anyone give me the clif notes version? It was made by the two hikers who were not assaulted but headed NOBO away from the incident?
They didn’t share too much detail as they said the investigation was ongoing but they were the 2nd couple that was at the camp when this guy started making threats. They said in the video they were chased by this guy with his knife. They were somehow able to elude him.
4eyedbuzzard
05-13-2019, 22:25
I edited to add critical punctuation. It's been a long day, I'm going to bed.Me too. Apologies for misinterpreting your original post.
Eigerhiker
05-13-2019, 23:54
I don't understand how the Unicoi police don't have access to that information.
Not all warrants are extraditable out of state. Depending on the seriousness of the charges and the type of warrant(s) issued, it may be statewide, regional or national extradition. Sometimes warrants are not reported to the national database (NCIC) or sometimes they’re reported but notated as non-extraditable.
I have had people from other states tell me they have warrants, but a database check revealed nothing. When I contacted the clerk of court for the jurisdiction involved they would sometimes confirm a warrant. Basically, there was no interest in paying the cost of extradition. They would just wait for the person to have contact with law enforcement when they return to the area. This is relatively common in misdemeanor cases not so much for a felony warrant.
A well written article providing an overview of the events leading to the horrible atack, and an overview of what happened after. https://www.outsideonline.com/2396150/appalachian-trail-murder-2019-james-jordan
The Washington Post also published a great article with tons of detail and interviews with hikers and hostel owners. It reports even more details about the aberrant behavior of the "fight angel," as Pork Chop called him. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/appalachian-trail-alleged-attacker-james-l-jordan-threatened-to-burn-hikers-to-death-fbi-says/2019/05/13/702763d4-7593-11e9-b7ae-390de4259661_story.html?utm_term=.9cd792dfba47
double d
05-14-2019, 07:36
this place and time is one of, if not the, most safest places and times in all of human history.
its our perception and how much we hear about violence, not the actual rate at which violence occurs, that are the issue.
i once worked a customer service job. i sat all day everyday answering an unending stream of complaint calls from angry customers. hundreds a day. must be a crappy company if they have so many unhappy customers, right? one of the first things the person who trained me did was show me how to look through all the records of the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people who were customers for 25 years and never called to complain once. the company was actually great, they just hired enough people to answer the amount of calls they received and to keep us all busy instead of sitting around.
the way we perceive the violence level of our society is sort of like that. i like to lay most of the blame on CNN starting a chain of events that turned the news into a product to be sold and profited from.
45163
####Your opinion is incorrect, as the U.S. averages over 18,000-20,000 homicides a year in the U.S. (see Uniform Crime Reports-Dept. of Justice) and that is by far the most murders committed in any Democratic, capitalist society.
double d
05-14-2019, 07:44
here's an article with more information..
https://wcyb.com/news/local/court-docs-one-of-appalachian-trail-stabbing-victims-played-dead-to-stay-alive
Thank you TN Hiker for all the information you have shared with us on WB.
Alligator
05-14-2019, 09:04
We are definitely paying attention to this thread so please keep it on topic and within the rules set out in the site user agreement.
Thank you.
BlackCloud
05-14-2019, 11:30
Based on the information in this article, the location of the attack was most likely the well-used campsite at Reed Creek, about 2 miles south of Tilson Gap on the AT.
The article said "the four made camp in Wythe County", where only a short segment of about 4 miles of the AT runs between Little Brushy Mtn and Tilson Gap, with the campsite at Reed Creek near its center. The article also said "The victim received assistance to help her hike six miles into Smyth County", which is SOBO on the AT. The nearest road SOBO is VA 617 which is about 6 miles from the campsite at Reed Creek.
Most likely the victim ran SOBO because she'd been hiking NOBO and when panicked and hiking in the dark it makes most sense to reverse course. Would have been quicker to head NOBO where to VA 610 with hostel nearby after only 4 miles, but she probably wouldn't have known this unless she'd been planning to stop there.
Very unfortunate situation - my condolences to the victim's family.
Good job figuring out the exact spot!
BlackCloud
05-14-2019, 11:43
Reading the FBI's criminal complaint I deduce the following which has heretofore not been discussed:
1. The 2 hikers who posted the YouTube video, identified in the complaint as Hiker #1 and Hiker #2, were the same 2 accosted by the defendant in Unicoi County;
2. The female victim ran south b/c at the onset of the attack, she just ran for her life as the defendant was killing her male companion. The defendant ran after her, stabbed her, and she played dead. She just continued south b/c to do otherwise would have required her to go back thru the camp where the defendant had returned;
3. The police probably made Hikers 1 and 2 remove the video b/c they are eye witnesses to the attack and all prior statements by witnesses in federal court are subject to Discovery and cross examination by the defense.
If I am correct, and Hikers 1 & 2 are the two hikers from the prior incident who refused to cooperate with law enforcement for the sake of their own convenience, they have a lot to answer for.....
Nothing from the criminal complaint suggests in any way that any of the four hikers from VA were involved in the previous incident in Unicoi.
Nothing from the criminal complaint suggests in any way that any of the four hikers from VA were involved in the previous incident in Unicoi.
Nor has any media coverage suggested or stated that.
I may be overstepping my bounds here, but given the prior advice from the WB administrator that victims' families and friends are reading threads about the attack and in some cases upset by them, it might be the better course of action not to speculate, especially if the speculation suggests that the victims are to blame for the incident. My two cents, and again please forgive me if I'm talking out of turn.
I was also wondering if the two in the video were the same two who Odie interviewed about the prior harrassment.
Shooting Star
05-14-2019, 12:15
Jordan had run-ins with lots of hikers and given his state of mind, I'm not sure he'd remember specific people from several
weeks back and especially encountering them at night. One of the articles I saw said Jordan was asking hikers at one of the
road crossings what the password was to hike on the AT and was waiting around for someone to tell him. This dude was out
past Neptune somewhere.
This is devastating and those involved and their families have my sympathies.
Speculating on who's at fault and whether anyone brought this upon themselves is no help.
We'll learn more details of this sad story soon enough.
Nor has any media coverage suggested or stated that.
I may be overstepping my bounds here, but given the prior advice from the WB administrator that victims' families and friends are reading threads about the attack and in some cases upset by them, it might be the better course of action not to speculate, especially if the speculation suggests that the victims are to blame for the incident. My two cents, and again please forgive me if I'm talking out of turn.
One Half
05-14-2019, 12:40
Remember that police can only arrest and charge for felonies, and misdemeanors committed in their presence. Otherwise it is completely on the victim to press charges.
No. That's not correct at all. :eek:
No. That's not correct at all. :eek:Without getting into the weeds regarding warrantless arrests and based on public information, it's the correct answer regarding why the police didn't arrest for the first assault.
Without getting into the weeds regarding warrantless arrests and based on public information, it's the correct answer regarding why the police didn't arrest for the first assault.Attorneys make big bucks arguing this back and forth in court. Since I'm not an attorney or getting paid, I'm done.
Christoph
05-14-2019, 13:25
I wish this thread was done.
If I am correct, and Hikers 1 & 2 are the two hikers from the prior incident who refused to cooperate with law enforcement for the sake of their own convenience, they have a lot to answer for.....
and how did you deduce this?
did you watch the video in question?
3. The police probably made Hikers 1 and 2 remove the video b/c they are eye witnesses to the attack and all prior statements by witnesses in federal court are subject to Discovery and cross examination by the defense.
i doubt it based on my viewing of the video...
they said very very little about the actual attack...
and also, since this is america and we have the first amendment---they have every right to keep it up.........
gpburdelljr
05-14-2019, 13:59
I wish this thread was done.
Don't hold your breath.
I wish some hikers would have taken out the threat them self's.
perdidochas
05-14-2019, 14:54
####Your opinion is incorrect, as the U.S. averages over 18,000-20,000 homicides a year in the U.S. (see Uniform Crime Reports-Dept. of Justice) and that is by far the most murders committed in any Democratic, capitalist society.
Of course we have more murders than any other Democratic, capitalist society, because we are by far the largest Democratic, capitalist society. Anybody using raw numbers to compare countries of different populations is trying to exaggerate.
perdidochas
05-14-2019, 14:55
Reading the FBI's criminal complaint I deduce the following which has heretofore not been discussed:
1. The 2 hikers who posted the YouTube video, identified in the complaint as Hiker #1 and Hiker #2, were the same 2 accosted by the defendant in Unicoi County;
2. The female victim ran south b/c at the onset of the attack, she just ran for her life as the defendant was killing her male companion. The defendant ran after her, stabbed her, and she played dead. She just continued south b/c to do otherwise would have required her to go back thru the camp where the defendant had returned;
3. The police probably made Hikers 1 and 2 remove the video b/c they are eye witnesses to the attack and all prior statements by witnesses in federal court are subject to Discovery and cross examination by the defense.
If I am correct, and Hikers 1 & 2 are the two hikers from the prior incident who refused to cooperate with law enforcement for the sake of their own convenience, they have a lot to answer for.....
Source for the FBI's criminal complaint?
Source for the FBI's criminal complaint?
https://www.backpacker.com/news-and-events/criminal-complaint-in-appalachian-trail-murder-james-l-jordan
Fair warning, it says nothing to support BlackCloud's interpretation.
perdidochas
05-14-2019, 15:04
https://www.backpacker.com/news-and-events/criminal-complaint-in-appalachian-trail-murder-james-l-jordan
Fair warning, it says nothing to support BlackCloud's interpretation.
I found it here:
https://www.scribd.com/document/409788321/James-Jordan-federal-affidavit#from_embed
I agree. It doesn't fit BlackCloud's interpretation.
johnacraft
05-14-2019, 15:32
I was also wondering if the two in the video were the same two who Odie interviewed about the prior harrassment.
There were three hikers (two male, one female) in the interview video.
The hiker couple who were chased but not attacked were not in the interview video.
At least one report (maybe Washington Post) I've read specifically mentioned that the four victims of the attack had seen Jordan for the first time the Friday before the Saturday morning attack.
stephanD
05-14-2019, 15:35
Of course we have more murders than any other Democratic, capitalist society, because we are by far the largest Democratic, capitalist society. Anybody using raw numbers to compare countries of different populations is trying to exaggerate.
First of all, India is largest Democratic and capitalist society. They have more than a billion people. Second, I think what he meant is that PER CAPITA, the US has more murders than any other democratic society in the world.
The hiker couple who were chased but not attacked were not in the interview video.
this couple made their own video as well...
they have a following on youtube so they did a one about the incident but didnt give details at all..
i forget their names but i watched it the other day..
and apparently, the video has been deleted now......(i cant confirm that as i forgot their names)..
gpburdelljr
05-14-2019, 16:01
First of all, India is largest Democratic and capitalist society. They have more than a billion people. Second, I think what he meant is that PER CAPITA, the US has more murders than any other democratic society in the world.
The following link has a table, listing murders per 100,000, by country. The US does not have the highest per capita murder rate of democratic societies in the world. For example, compare South Africa (a democracy) to the US.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
I have worked in ER and at an inpatient psychiatric hospital. I have dealt with many mentally ill people including paranoid schizophrenics. The mentally unstable can often act and speak in a normal fashion when interviewed by staff or police. I’m sure if he was threatening to burn up the cops in their tents he would have been held for psych evaluation, he probably was acting in a normal fashion at this key time. That is why evaluation commitment is usually for 72 hours - it’s hard for the truly ill to keep on a sane mask for that long, also effects of drugs and or alcohol should wear off by then, often with withdrawal symptoms showing.
Im only bringing up this fact because many are dumping on original arresting officers saying they weren’t doing their jobs. Also stating that original complaintives “have a lot to answer for”. I’m sure they all feel terrible at the outcome. 20:20 hindsight is easy to have. We aren’t aware of every scrap of info each officer had. When looked at in hindsight the conclusion to detain is obvious, but I am sure no one person had all the scraps of info that we are putting together here as the incidents were evolving.
I feel that this horrible event can help teach each of us to follow our gut feelings and err on the side of caution when dealing with bizarre circumstances. Most folks don’t want to get involved. It sounds like many hikers were threatened , a few notified police or other authorities but most didn’t. In future please get involved.
I am truly, deeply sorry for the grief that the injured hiker, her family and the the murdered hiker’s families are going through. My heart goes out to you all.
GlitterHiker
05-14-2019, 16:24
this couple made their own video as well...
they have a following on youtube so they did a one about the incident but didnt give details at all..
i forget their names but i watched it the other day..
and apparently, the video has been deleted now......(i cant confirm that as i forgot their names)..
Their channel is "It's Who We Are". They are not the same hikers as the three in the interview. They did not talk about the actual incident;, they talked about the trauma they are feeling. Based on their comments, I assumed they were the other two hikers referenced in the news articles, the ones who got away.
They said they were going to stay off the trail for a few days to process what they went through. They also mentioned that they filmed several other videos prior to the incident and they'll upload them eventually. And that they filmed and posted that video so that their followers would know they are safe.
Abatis1948
05-14-2019, 16:28
I have worked in ER and at an inpatient psychiatric hospital. I have dealt with many mentally ill people including paranoid schizophrenics. The mentally unstable can often act and speak in a normal fashion when interviewed by staff or police. I’m sure if he was threatening to burn up the cops in their tents he would have been held for psych evaluation, he probably was acting in a normal fashion at this key time. That is why evaluation commitment is usually for 72 hours - it’s hard for the truly ill to keep on a sane mask for that long, also effects of drugs and or alcohol should wear off by then, often with withdrawal symptoms showing.
Im only bringing up this fact because many are dumping on original arresting officers saying they weren’t doing their jobs. Also stating that original complaintives “have a lot to answer for”. I’m sure they all feel terrible at the outcome. 20:20 hindsight is easy to have. We aren’t aware of every scrap of info each officer had. When looked at in hindsight the conclusion to detain is obvious, but I am sure no one person had all the scraps of info that we are putting together here as the incidents were evolving.
I feel that this horrible event can help teach each of us to follow our gut feelings and err on the side of caution when dealing with bizarre circumstances. Most folks don’t want to get involved. It sounds like many hikers were threatened , a few notified police or other authorities but most didn’t. In future please get involved.
I am truly, deeply sorry for the grief that the injured hiker, her family and the the murdered hiker’s families are going through. My heart goes out to you all.I worked as a Forensic Nurse for 22 years. I agree with you. Part of my teams job was to evaluate mental status. It is amazing how sane our clients act for short periods of time. They will always break after awhile, not being able to keep the sharade up. Mental health is not understood my most of the public.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
the ID of the man who was killed came out today---
Ronald S. Sanchez Jr. of Oklahoma.....
stephanD
05-14-2019, 16:46
The following link has a table, listing murders per 100,000, by country. The US does not have the highest per capita murder rate of democratic societies in the world. For example, compare South Africa (a democracy) to the US.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Comparing the US to South Africa......I feel much safer now.
greenmtnboy
05-14-2019, 16:51
and how did you deduce this?
did you watch the video in question?
This is exceedingly unlikely given the logistics that would be required for the killer to find the previous hikers who he may have thought had reported him landing him in jail. He may have thought that the ones he was attacking were the ones who had reported him. Every criminal fears law enforcement holding them accountable for their bad actions.
perdidochas
05-14-2019, 16:59
First of all, India is largest Democratic and capitalist society. They have more than a billion people. Second, I think what he meant is that PER CAPITA, the US has more murders than any other democratic society in the world.
Then he should have said per capita and used per capita numbers.
Using his standard, he's wrong. India had about 32,000 murders in 2015 (last year I could easily find). We had about 16,000 murders. Yes, per capita we were higher, but again, that's not the numbers he used.
http://www.mospi.gov.in/statistical-year-book-india/2018/206
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-1
SC_Forester
05-14-2019, 17:24
I worked as a Forensic Nurse for 22 years. I agree with you. Part of my teams job was to evaluate mental status. It is amazing how sane our clients act for short periods of time. They will always break after awhile, not being able to keep the sharade up. Mental health is not understood my most of the public.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
To add to what Abatis1948 and Kestral said I work as a Law Enforcement, officer in a wildland environment, In spite what most people think this man had the right of due process. Simple assault is a pretty minor thing and normally doesn't you in jail for long if at all.
To add to what Abatis1948 and Kestral said I work as a Law Enforcement, officer in a wildland environment, In spite what most people think this man had the right of due process. Simple assault is a pretty minor thing and normally doesn't you in jail for long if at all.
and with the suspect having a knife---wouldnt that be aggravated assault?
and likewise, still would not be in jail that long.....
Thrifty Endurance
05-14-2019, 17:49
I know who they are and I too watched the vid. It was a good idea to remove the vid from their channel. This is an ongoing investigation and it is best for law enforcement to do their jobs. Unfortunately, they may have to appear in court to testify in his trial. It will be very traumatic for all involved and I do keep them in my thoughts. My heart broke when I found out who the couple was because they were thru-hiking the AT to HEAL from another traumatic event.
BlackCloud
05-14-2019, 18:23
The criminal complaint: https://www.masslive.com/capecod/2019/05/read-the-affidavit-james-jordan-of-massachusetts-accused-of-murder-on-the-appalachian-trail.html
"14. Hiker #1 and Hiker #2 were interviewed by investigators with the Smyth County Sheriff's Office on May 11, 2019. Both identified Jordan as being the individual who had approached and chased them with a knife and had a picture on a cellular phone of Jordan from his prior incident in Tennessee."
I took this to mean that either Hiker #1 or Hiker #2 had taken a picture of the defendant during a prior run in with him in TN. If not, why would the FBI agent include this clause in the affidavit? What other photo could they have had of the defendant? Were hikers texting pix of the defendant to each other for situational awareness? If the photo was his prior booking photo, the agent would have written exactly that, as the booking photo is already a gov't document identifying the defendant and would thus constitute a clearer identification of the defendant than some random picture not already in police custody. Maybe I read too much into it.
The defendant will soon be indicted by a federal grand jury. The indictment will undoubtedly contain more details.
gpburdelljr
05-14-2019, 18:32
Comparing the US to South Africa......I feel much safer now.
You said the US had the highest per capita murder rate of any democratic country in the world, which was incorrect. If you don’t like comparing to South Africa, there are quite a few other democratic countries in the referenced table with higher murder rates than the US to compare to. There are certainly countries, democratic and otherwise, with lower murder rates than the US, but the US is still a very safe place to live. Incidents like the one in this thread are rare, on a per capita basis. I’ve certainly never felt unsafe in the city, or in the woods.
The criminal complaint: https://www.masslive.com/capecod/2019/05/read-the-affidavit-james-jordan-of-massachusetts-accused-of-murder-on-the-appalachian-trail.html
"14. Hiker #1 and Hiker #2 were interviewed by investigators with the Smyth County Sheriff's Office on May 11, 2019. Both identified Jordan as being the individual who had approached and chased them with a knife and had a picture on a cellular phone of Jordan from his prior incident in Tennessee."
I took this to mean that either Hiker #1 or Hiker #2 had taken a picture of the defendant during a prior run in with him in TN. If not, why would the FBI agent include this clause in the affidavit? What other photo could they have had of the defendant? Were hikers texting pix of the defendant to each other for situational awareness? If the photo was his prior booking photo, the agent would have written exactly that, as the booking photo is already a gov't document identifying the defendant and would thus constitute a clearer identification of the defendant than some random picture not already in police custody. Maybe I read too much into it.
The defendant will soon be indicted by a federal grand jury. The indictment will undoubtedly contain more details.
I respectfully suggest you do some reading before using your flawed powers of deduction to blame the victims. Start with this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/appalachian-trail-alleged-attacker-james-l-jordan-threatened-to-burn-hikers-to-death-fbi-says/2019/05/13/702763d4-7593-11e9-b7ae-390de4259661_story.html?utm_term=.49657e027de6
SC_Forester
05-14-2019, 19:35
and with the suspect having a knife---wouldnt that be aggravated assault?
and likewise, still would not be in jail that long.....
Depends on the laws of the county/state of the event. For assault would have to make contact. Seems like it he was threatening but never attempted or caused bodily harm (the fires time around) and no body wanted to press charges.
NY TIMES article:
https://nyti.ms/2Q9rMde
The criminal complaint: https://www.masslive.com/capecod/2019/05/read-the-affidavit-james-jordan-of-massachusetts-accused-of-murder-on-the-appalachian-trail.html
"14. Hiker #1 and Hiker #2 were interviewed by investigators with the Smyth County Sheriff's Office on May 11, 2019. Both identified Jordan as being the individual who had approached and chased them with a knife and had a picture on a cellular phone of Jordan from his prior incident in Tennessee."
I took this to mean that either Hiker #1 or Hiker #2 had taken a picture of the defendant during a prior run in with him in TN. If not, why would the FBI agent include this clause in the affidavit? What other photo could they have had of the defendant? Were hikers texting pix of the defendant to each other for situational awareness? If the photo was his prior booking photo, the agent would have written exactly that, as the booking photo is already a gov't document identifying the defendant and would thus constitute a clearer identification of the defendant than some random picture not already in police custody. Maybe I read too much into it.
The defendant will soon be indicted by a federal grand jury. The indictment will undoubtedly contain more details.Because that photo was all over the 2019 AT Hikers groups and on Instagram. I would speculate that most hikers that were in or near that area had a picture of the guy or had seen one. I had been watching the trail updates on these groups as we are headed into the area he was originally detained.
To add to what Abatis1948 and Kestral said I work as a Law Enforcement, officer in a wildland environment, In spite what most people think this man had the right of due process. Simple assault is a pretty minor thing and normally doesn't you in jail for long if at all.
I would be curious what you recommend for self defense in remote areas.
4eyedbuzzard
05-14-2019, 20:57
Jordan had run-ins with lots of hikers and given his state of mind, I'm not sure he'd remember specific people from several
weeks back and especially encountering them at night. One of the articles I saw said Jordan was asking hikers at one of the
road crossings what the password was to hike on the AT and was waiting around for someone to tell him. This dude was out
past Neptune somewhere.... But, amazingly, only acting out when away from authorities, where and when he would likely not stir up immediate trouble for himself.
I have worked in ER and at an inpatient psychiatric hospital. I have dealt with many mentally ill people including paranoid schizophrenics. The mentally unstable can often act and speak in a normal fashion when interviewed by staff or police. I’m sure if he was threatening to burn up the cops in their tents he would have been held for psych evaluation, he probably was acting in a normal fashion at this key time....
I worked as a Forensic Nurse for 22 years. I agree with you. Part of my teams job was to evaluate mental status. It is amazing how sane our clients act for short periods of time.... A lot of mentally ill people behave and "color between the lines" in all sorts of different settings to keep from raising alarms. Face it, it's somewhat of a necessity to make others think you're okay or getting better, even if you're not. But, unlike Jordan, they are rarely violent towards others and if anything tend to be more self-destructive. So of course Jordan likely didn't act out when around authorities in TN. He'd been in trouble before in MA. He had experience in this stuff. And warrants (hence the fictitious ID). He isn't so mentally ill that he wasn't cognizant of punishment. His mind was sound enough to know to get fake ID and flee MA, knowing his past violent behavior (assault and battery, open and gross lewdness, resisting arrest and drug charges) was wrong and against the law. He also managed to behave well enough to get certain people along the trail corridor to give him money, bus tickets, food, rides and such after he was released in TN. On multiple occasions he consciously turns on the acceptable behavior required to manipulate people and circumstances, and then turns it off and goes back to scaring and hurting people once away from public scrutiny with authorities nearby. Mentally ill? Quite probably. Legally insane - unable to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his acts? I'm skeptical.
the ID of the man who was killed came out today---
Ronald S. Sanchez Jr. of Oklahoma.....
More about Mr. Sanchez: https://5newsonline.com/2019/05/14/oklahoma-army-veteran-killed-on-appalachian-trail/
One Half
05-14-2019, 22:15
the ID of the man who was killed came out today---
Ronald S. Sanchez Jr. of Oklahoma.....
Thank you for posting that. While all the media will be focused on the murderer and showing his face day and night, let us all try to remember the victims and their families.
Ronald S. Sanchez Jr of Oklahoma, my thoughts are with you this evening.
SC_Forester
05-14-2019, 23:29
I would be curious what you recommend for self defense in remote areas.
During my section hike this year I was hiking with two nurses. I asked them with their medical background do they carry more or less of a first aid kit. The answer they gave was less of a kit and knowledge was their best tool. Same logic applies here. Be aware of your surroundings. I size up every single person I meet and gauge their threat level. If your gut is not feeling it hike on. What threats are you realistically going to face and what will mitigate that threat? I don't carry anything that you would recognize as a weapon on the trail.
Depends on the laws of the county/state of the event. For assault would have to make contact. Seems like it he was threatening but never attempted or caused bodily harm (the fires time around) and no body wanted to press charges.
In most jurisdictions assault is defined as a threat of unwanted physical contact, while battery is the act of making unwanted physical contact.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
stephanD
05-15-2019, 08:42
More about Mr. Sanchez: https://5newsonline.com/2019/05/14/oklahoma-army-veteran-killed-on-appalachian-trail/
To survive Iraq but not the AT, this is sad and maddening beyond words.
SWODaddy
05-15-2019, 09:07
How do you propose they do that? Lock them in the basement? In my state, I have absolutely no right to involuntary commit anyone. I can provide a statement to law enforcement or a doctor, but ultimately it's a judge's call.
Who do we think posted the relatively large bond for the murderer? I highly, highly doubt he had the money. I would assume a family member did because no bondsman is going to post bond for a transient psychotic.
TexasBob
05-15-2019, 09:18
To survive Iraq but not the AT, this is sad and maddening beyond words.
I was thinking the same thing. 16 years in the Army serving his country and suffering PTSD only to be killed by a crazy person while enjoying the peace and tranquility of being in the woods. It is heart breaking.
thegecko
05-15-2019, 09:23
Hi all, I am new to this forum but not new to hiking or the AT. I'm a section hiker and have section hiked the AT and other trails in North and South America.
Like many of you I care a lot about the AT and the people on it. There is nothing quite like it's community. Like many of you I've been carefully studying the news, reading the official complaint, visiting vlgs and blogs, trying to understand what happened because I think it's important. It's important to the trail, important to the memory of the victims and could be really important to preventing something like this again through the acquired knowledge of facts and by listening carefully to the survivors.
I want to have a moment of silence for Mr. Sanchez, an army veteran who suffered from PTSD and also keep the un-identified injured woman, a.k.a. "Victim #2" from the official complaint in my thoughts. I also want to keep in my thoughts "Hiker #1 and Hiker #2", a.k.a. the "It's Who We Are" vloggers. What they also experienced is harrowing to say the least. For all the survivors this will likely take a long time to heal from, physically and mentally.
My thoughts are also with Odie Norman, who has had his name unfairly dragged through the mud on this, not by journalists but by people on this and other forums. He put himself in harms way trying to do the right thing and he wasn't the only one who was of the idea to get the perpetrator off the trail.
My thoughts go out to anyone of the numerous people that the perpetrator terrorized on the trail. If you've dug deep into reports and vlogs, this touched a lot of people, caused a lot of sleepless nights and will not soon be forgotten, nor should it, by many of those on-trail or close to those on-trail. No one not on-trail can judge the actions of anyone in that situation. Full stop.
I am disheartened though a bit about what I am reading here on this forum as well as a few other places like the AT subreddit. Disheartened in two ways.
1. This thread was originally created, at face value, to broadcast valuable information about incidents on the trail so that others might be made aware and be safer for it. It quickly descended into a lot of off topic, tangential opinion or worse, mis-information and judgement. I think there is a lesson to be learned here. If someone posts something like this, something that is timely and is for the benefit of people on-trail or their supporters, the thread really needs to be kept to factual information that can help people or corroborate details. If you don't have something to say that is useful to someone on-trail or a loved one of someone on-trail, then you're likely just spreading drama.
2. Given what happened in the following weeks culminating in last Friday's attack, it seems natural that this thread shifted from it's original topic to information regarding the subsequent fatal attack and police investigation. What seems very distasteful though is the theories that continue to be posted about 'who was who' and 'who did what' and worst of all: 'who is to blame'. None of this speculation helps keep the facts straight and none of this helps the trail or the people on it. All the information that is known is available, theorizing on things for your entertainment, which is to say spreading false info, in the face of actual available facts, is not helping anyone.
Back to the intention of this thread and I think this forum, if you haven't read the official complaint but are invested in this topic, please do so here: https://www.scribd.com/document/409788321/James-Jordan-federal-affidavit
The news reporting in Outdoor and the New York Times, already linked in this thread are, combined with the official complaint, the most comprehensive and carefully cultivated information currently available.
peace.