Flip-Flop question

[1hammer]

Hi - I am interested in attempting a thru-hike starting at Harpers Ferry going Northbound to avoid the worst of the 'bubble' on a NOBO hike. On most reports that I have read, most people seem to return to Harpers Ferry to hike Southbound to Georgia. Is there any particular reason for doing this? I would prefer to do the second half of the hike Northbound from Georgia up to Harpers Ferry as I think it would be nice to finish where I started.

With a mid to late April start Northbound from Harpers Ferry, is there any weather or logistical problem with doing both legs of the journey Northbound (with the second half of the hike possibly starting sometime in July or August)?

Thanks

[tdoczi]

Hi - I am interested in attempting a thru-hike starting at Harpers Ferry going Northbound to avoid the worst of the 'bubble' on a NOBO hike. On most reports that I have read, most people seem to return to Harpers Ferry to hike Southbound to Georgia. Is there any particular reason for doing this? I would prefer to do the second half of the hike Northbound from Georgia up to Harpers Ferry as I think it would be nice to finish where I started.

With a mid to late April start Northbound from Harpers Ferry, is there any weather or logistical problem with doing both legs of the journey Northbound (with the second half of the hike possibly starting sometime in July or August)?

Thanks
i wonder this at times too. my guesses at answers are heat in the south in july/august (though the area south of HF is no picnic that time of year either) and some small-ish chance of hitting winter weather in the smokies in say november if you start south from HF in august and hike on the slower side.

[trailmercury]

the simple answer is Heat. it will be a relatively cooler average hiking temperature going SOBO after the flip. Hiking in Georgia is generally more pleasant in September than in July...or so they say.
YMMV

[bigcranky]

Nope, no reason at all why this wouldn't work.

I think some folks go southbound on the second part so they can finish at one of the termini. That's all.

[1hammer]

Thanks for the replies. In an ideal world I think it would be nice to finish at Katahdin so an option I have looked at (although it would require an additional flight) was Harper Ferry up to somewhere like Hanover NH, bus to Boston then fly down to Atlanta, hike back to Harpers Ferry, then flight from Washington DC to Boston and rejoin the trail at Hanover...
It would still need to be completed before winter, but to me an itinery like that would avoid the crowds but still finish at what many deem to be the real 'end' point. Just an idea.
Transport links from Hanover to Boston and Harpers Ferry to Washington DC are prety good.

[ldsailor]

During the last three years, I did LASH's NOBO and met a lot of southbound hikers, including quite a few flip floppers, as I progressed further north. Many if not all were hoping to finish their thru-hike by Thanksgiving. By my calculations, a large portion of those hikers would not make it until December. Even if they finish at the end of November... Well, let's put it this way. Where would you rather be in late November or early December - Georgia or North Virginia?

[1hammer]

Good point, however do you know when those southbound /flipfloppers started? If I started in April it would still give 6 months to finish. (If my progress was slow on the first leg, it still leaves me the option of continuing on to Katahdin before 'flopping', if progress is OK then I would continue with the original plan.
Was just curious why most people do the 'flop' southbound.

[peakbagger]

Thanks for the replies. In an ideal world I think it would be nice to finish at Katahdin so an option I have looked at (although it would require an additional flight) was Harper Ferry up to somewhere like Hanover NH, bus to Boston then fly down to Atlanta, hike back to Harpers Ferry, then flight from Washington DC to Boston and rejoin the trail at Hanover...
It would still need to be completed before winter, but to me an itinery like that would avoid the crowds but still finish at what many deem to be the real 'end' point. Just an idea.
Transport links from Hanover to Boston and Harpers Ferry to Washington DC are prety good.

No matter what you plan, make sure you are ending up at BSP no later than Oct 1st. Yes the park is open until Oct 15th but that doesn't mean the trails up Katahdin are open. There is usually a sharp transition to late fall conditions (snow/ice/rain around the Oct 1st. in the last decade or so this has shifted somewhat into later October but not reliably. The park is open to day use and some very limited campgrounds after the 15th depending on weather conditions but the only access is via the Togue Pond gatehouse which is off the AT. The other reason is the fall foliage in the region tends to peak before or near Oct 1st and a good stiff wind can get rid of a lot of the leaves overnight.

[LittleRock]

Was just curious why most people do the 'flop' southbound.
Simple answer is weather. July and August are downright miserable times to be out hiking in the southeast. Trust me, the mid-day conditions here in the summer suck the energy right out of you. It's not the heat so much as the combination of heat and humidity (and bugs). You'll sweat a ton every day, and dehydration becomes a real concern. It's still an issue even if you go southbound but my guess is it's slightly more tolerable.

[ldsailor]

Good point, however do you know when those southbound /flipfloppers started? If I started in April it would still give 6 months to finish. (If my progress was slow on the first leg, it still leaves me the option of continuing on to Katahdin before 'flopping', if progress is OK then I would continue with the original plan.

Good question. I'll use an example. I met up with two flip-floppers heading north in Connecticut last year in June. They started after the Flip-Flop Festival at Harpers Ferry, so that's mid-April, I believe. We crossed paths many times and eventually hiked together in VT and NH. I was ahead of them in the White Mountains where I got hurt and had to quit. I kept in touch with one of them by texting as they continued on. They both summitted Katahdin on August 20 and then took some time off. They restarted at Harpers Ferry on September 10 going SOBO. Then I heard one quit in central Virginia. It had rained for three straight weeks. While he didin't say so, I'm sure there were quite a few zero days taken due to the rain. He told me he didn't want to continue since there was no way to finish before December. The other hiker continued on and was expected to finish in December. I never heard if he finished.

Things happen out there. They both took five days off on their way to Katahdin plus the normal amount of zero days. Both had their health issues not much different than a lot of hikers, myself included, which caused some multi-zero days.

Hope that helps. Just remember. It's hard to start an early flip-flop because of the weather up north and the infamous muddy condition of the trail in the far northern states as snow melts. I bet the early SOBO thru-hikers are going to have fun this year with the amount of snow melt in Maine and NH after a big snow year this past winter.

[Dogwood]

Hi - I am interested in attempting a thru-hike starting at Harpers Ferry going Northbound to avoid the worst of the 'bubble' on a NOBO hike. On most reports that I have read, most people seem to return to Harpers Ferry to hike Southbound to Georgia. Is there any particular reason for doing this? I would prefer to do the second half of the hike Northbound from Georgia up to Harpers Ferry as I think it would be nice to finish where I started.

With a mid to late April start Northbound from Harpers Ferry, is there any weather or logistical problem with doing both legs of the journey Northbound (with the second half of the hike possibly starting sometime in July or August)?

Thanks
Being international a HF makes the start and finish easier in & outs from DC area AP's. Plus, understand thru hiking is not just about hiking. You get to explore DC potentially twice. I went into DC on July 2-5 on an AT NOBO from HF finding highly enriching to the AT thru hike. Smithsonian, Vietnam Veterans Memorial, Native American Museum. Lincoln and Jefferson Memorials. WA Monument playing frisbee underneath it with about 100 other people, US. National Botanical Garden, stayed at a DC International Hostel for two nights with me being the only US citizen(GREAT!). DC is a cool large US city not just popular for US citizens. It's one of the world's GREAT cities.

That itinerary is going to be experienced under notably different weather scenarios. Your NOBO first half is going to be cool weather, maybe something similar to Scotland's weather. The Flop is going to be a heat and humidity festival. Bring your kilt. :cool:

[1hammer]

Thanks - cool is good for me (although what you call cool is probably warm for me!). Hot and humid will definitely add to the difficulties...

[Paul C]

I have wondered why more people dont do this my self. I am planing a thru hike nobo, starting just a little south of the VA. border. If you go northbound the whole way is it still called a flip flop?

[colorado_rob]

I have wondered why more people dont do this my self. I am planing a thru hike nobo, starting just a little south of the VA. border. If you go northbound the whole way is it still called a flip flop? Yes, pretty sure it's a "flip-flop" no matter how you combine some big sections, no matter where you start, no matter what directions, assuming you eventually do the entire trail in some combination. As said below, the most common way, Harpers->Katahdin then Harpers->Springer is best to avoid the heat as much as possible (though starting near the VA border heading north, then again at the VA border and heading south would make not much difference in heat at all. Seems like enough of a reason for me.

[Paladin2]

If I start a Flip Flop NOBO from HF in late April, will I need to carry a puffy coat to Katahdin? If I return to HF in Mid-August to go SOBO will I need the puffy then?

[Slo-go'en]

If I start a Flip Flop NOBO from HF in late April, will I need to carry a puffy coat to Katahdin? If I return to HF in Mid-August to go SOBO will I need the puffy then?

Most will likely carry their puffy to Katahdin. You probably won't need it back in HF for a while, but at that point you might as well just keep it. It can actually get a little chilly early in the morning down there.

You're not going to beat the heat flipping to either GA or HF. Although, it might actually be cooler in the mountains of NC then on the ridges of VA. Fall seems to be lasting well into November these days, so finishing HF towards winter probably isn't too much of a risk of encountering really cold weather.

[HankIV]

Most will likely carry their puffy to Katahdin. You probably won't need it back in HF for a while, but at that point you might as well just keep it. It can actually get a little chilly early in the morning down there.

You're not going to beat the heat flipping to either GA or HF. Although, it might actually be cooler in the mountains of NC then on the ridges of VA. Fall seems to be lasting well into November these days, so finishing HF towards winter probably isn't too much of a risk of encountering really cold weather.

Agree on all counts here. Was glad to have warm fleece in July in Maine, and just after Labor Day in SNP. And I think the heat/humidity isn’t any worse in GA than VA, it just lingers a bit longer into the fall. Flipping to Springer would just maybe increase your odds of cooler weather at the finish. That said, I saw a few flurries on Tray Mtn in GA in late Oct.

[Lauriep]

I'm not sure the weather is necessarily more favorable hiking the southern 1000 miles southbound in fall. The main reason hardly anyone does it is that hardly anyone does it.

Georgia's 80 miles and the northernmost Virginia's 60 miles are actually likely fairly similar in terms of temperature. Georgia is much further south, but at significantly higher elevation (~2550 - 4660); northern Virginia ranges 250- 1880. Overall, the A.T. in Georgia is a little warmer than northermost Virginia, but Blood Mountain can be colder. You could expect them both to be quite warm and humid in late August. I've never been in Georgia at that time and haven't researched it, but I imagine it's pretty similar to northern Virginia. I do wonder if Georgia might not have the benefit of more breezes given the higher altitudes.

The Smokies have the coldest temperatures of anywhere on the A.T. south of about Massachusetts, typically colder than Shenandoah in Virginia. That being said, most flip floppers going southbound in the fall get through the Smokies before any significant snow or ice. Still, it's worth remembering how cold it can be, even in October, so it's best to amp up your cold weather gear before going into the park. In October, the average low at the highest elevations is 38, in November, 28. Of course some days will be a lot warmer, some nights a lot colder.

For a comparison of temperatures on one day, here's today: on Clingmans Dome (6643' in the Smokies)—19° max, 12° min, 0° wind chill. On Hawksbill Mountain (4049' which is more than 200' higher than the highest point of the A.T. in Shenandoah), 36 max 19° min 19° wind chill.

Other places in the South are at higher elevations and colder than Shenandoah but lower than the Smokies--Mt. Rogers (5500') and some of the balds in TN/NC are higher than that. The open areas of Mt. Rogers and the balds of Tennessee/North Carolina can be pretty wild in a snow storm. Because they are so exposed, winds can be high and snow can drift to deep levels in places. Fortunately, the big snows generally don't come until January.

I think it's a toss-up and would vary year to year which option would offer the milder weather overall.

The main difference in the two approaches is the social aspect. There are very few long-distance hikers walking northbound from Springer in late summer and fall. That also means thru-hiker-centric businesses are mostly closed. For most, that's a negative, but I know some people for whom it was just perfect.

[HankIV]

FWIW, you will probably encounter leading edge of the NOBO bubble as the early starters and really fast folk are in Maine late June to July. If you really want to avoid that, could see starting further north to hit Katahdin at the early June open, then flip to Springer. There is a train from NYC that stops in Rutland VT, which would make for fairly easy logistics. Disadvantage would be hitting the Whites without much in way of trail legs and being in Maine during peak black fly season.

On my SOBO, crossing the NOBO bubble only took about two weeks, where crowded campsites and full shelters were bothersome

[Slo-go'en]

The couple of times I went NOBO from HF 3d weekend of April, had very few thru hikers from Springer catch up. I did meet one guy who was moving very fast, he was on track to hit the Whites while there was still significant snow up there (big snow season, 3 years ago). I suggested he slow down a bit, but he just got mad and stormed off. Good luck dude.

I've also gone SOBO from HF 3d weekend of April a couple of times. Meet very few NOBO's until Trail Days let out, then all of a sudden there were lots and lots of NOBOs and crowded shelters as they got back on the trail, apparently many skipping up ahead of where they got off. Guess I was around Glasglow at the time.