View Full Version : Calorie Requirements and Food Weight
I'm planning on doing a 2 month section hike on the AT next year as my first long distance hike. I'll be doing some smaller weekend hikes for prep (and have done plenty of day hikes), but I have no way to do a test run for a long-distance hike where hiker hunger would kick in. I'm well on my way to selecting most of my gear, but having issues with food weight, and possible food volume that will impact my pack selection.
I'm a big guy (6'5", >200lb, 37yrs), and eat a LOT normally (calculations show about 3200 Calories, and that seems reasonable). I see references to people burning 6000 calories, etc. a day. I'm assuming those people are closer to a 2000 calorie diet normally? When I run the calculators, I'm showing 8500-9000 Calories to maintain weight if I'm hiking near 10hrs a day. That seems to be well in excess of 3lb of food a day, which is a far cry from the estimates people are giving for 1.5lb a day. Combined with 2L water (I drink/sweat a LOT), I need about 20lb on top of base weight for the start of a section with a 5 day supply carry, and closer to 24lb for very short distances if I'm not camping by a water source.
Do my food/Calorie numbers seem reasonable? If so, do you all run significantly shy of calorie needs on the trail to keep weight down and just rely on making that back with nero/zeroes? I'm thinking I have to be missing something major here....
I put together a tentative gear list (weights yet to go for clothing), and I can't seem to get low enough on total weight to be able to use any of the more common thru-hike packs. I don't think my base weight is looking that bad, but the combined total will be peaking above 40lb. I realize I won't always need 5 days of food, but I need to plan the pack around the max I will need to carry at any given point. Packs like the Arc Haul and Exos seem to max out at an effective 25-30lb weight, so do big guys just have to stick to traditional internal frame packs for thru hikes?
https://lighterpack.com/r/bcq33h
Thank you!
HooKooDooKu
04-29-2019, 01:07
I think the simple answer is that you're just not going to have any way to know exactly how much food you will need and will make adjustments along the trail. After all, as I've heard it discussed, most places are only a few days from a town were you can try to tank up (while you don't have to carry it) and buy more/less from the local grocery stores and outfitters as you learn what YOUR requirements will be on the trail.
MuddyWaters
04-29-2019, 05:31
Do my food/Calorie numbers seem reasonable? If so, do you all run significantly shy of calorie needs on the trail to keep weight down and just rely on making that back with nero/zeroes? I'm thinking I have to be missing something major here....
If you only hike 10 mpd, maybe you can keep up with caloric demand
I avg closer to 20. I consistently lose wt. I cannot eat enough on trail, and i pig out in town. Yes, town needs to add back calories and glycogen. But it doesnt keep up . Im talking 5000-10,000 cal in a day in town too. It helps.
bigcranky
04-29-2019, 06:53
Yeah, there is no way to carry enough food. Don't worry about it (and don't try!) You'll make up the calorie deficit in town stops. These days it's pretty easy to get into town every 3-4 days for resupply and town meals.
garlic08
04-29-2019, 08:19
Ditto all the above.
You may find that hiking the AT in the summer takes less energy than the tables show.
Try it out, but you may find it difficult to eat 9000 calories a day while hiking. If you can't eat it, don't carry it, and adjust your hiking goals to maintain your weight. Town food is definitely a great tactic, readily available on the AT.
As the weeks go by, your nutrition needs will change, too. You may become more efficient and be able to carry less food.
And try to remember that over the course of a couple of months, nutrition is more than just calories.
I'm 6'0" and 165 pounds, hike 15 miles per day on multi-week (non cold weather) section hikes, and have found that if I eat 4000 calories per day that I don't lose weight. Since you are a bigger guy than me you will likely need somewhat more than that -- but nowhere near 9000 calories a day.
I'm convinced that some ways of consuming calories are more efficient than others. Eating smaller amounts throughout the hiking day (the slow drip method) probably makes better use of calories than packing all of those calories into 2 or 3 traditional "meals" a day. Also, if a hiker goes five days at 4000 calories per day they probably make more efficient use of those calories than someone who eats 3000 calories for four days on the trail and then gorges 8000 calories in town on the fifth day. Both consume 20,000 calories in five days but I'll bet the steady eater would lose less weight than the hiker who binges.
Well, as a fellow big hiker (280lbs) there are some challenges and differences that you need to account for. For one thing your gear is going to be a little heavier. (I need a larger tent, large sleeping pad, x-large quilt, 2XL clothes, etc., and all of that is a little heavier.) You'll also need more food and water. The good news is that you're a lot bigger and stronger than most hikers so that extra weight isn't that big of a deal proportionally. There are plenty of smaller hikers that feel a 20 lb pack a lot more that you're going to feel a 40 lb pack so don't try to compare your carry weight to someone that's 1/2 your size :).
I wouldn't worry too much about trying to consume enough calories to keep up with your burn rate: I really doubt that you'll be able to eat that much even if you were willing to carry it. I personally can't eat 2 lbs of food a day while hiking (I really don't have much of an appetite.) Maybe you'll do better but there's only one way to find out. I would plan on no more than 2 lbs of food a day for planning though.
So my "back of the book" weight budget for a 3 season hike is something like this:
Base Weight: 17 lbs
Water: 4 lbs
Food & fuel: 1.5 lbs /day
So, for a 5 day hike I'll be carrying about 28.5 lbs at the start of a hike. If you add another .5 lbs of food per day you'd only be at 31 lbs. Not saying that's a perfect number but it's a lot less than 40 and I don't think that's an unreasonable planning number for a big guy.
As far as packs go 30 lbs is right in the wheel house for most of them. The Arc Haul is a good choice and the Exos Atmos carries very comfortably. I've used both and either will handle that kind of weight with no issue.
Just my humble $.02 - best of luck with whatever you end up doing!
Nolan "Guido" Jordan
04-29-2019, 13:01
The calories in calories out method only works in a test tube environment. It's NOT how the human body works.
You don't need to eat 3000 calories if you're gonna burn 3000 calories. In fact, don't even worry about calories. Your main goal on the trail should be proteins and fats. Try it, and see how you feel.
For food recommendations, buy a meat dehydrator, and dehydrate meats. It will save you tons of weight, and you can just cook it in water, and it will become food.
I'm not an expert though, but this is from personal experience.
MuddyWaters
04-29-2019, 13:10
There are plenty of smaller hikers that feel a 20 lb pack a lot more that you're going to feel a 40 lb pack so don't try to compare your carry weight to someone that's 1/2 your size :).
Bit of a stretch.
2x as heavy in lean fit people, is still not 2x as strong.
And if your a tubby bucket of goo...forget it.
The idea is right. But not for 2x the weight. Maybe some lower percentage...30%, 50, etc. But not 100. Charts and graphs and US army studies are out there somewhere.
Great thread...
My buddies and I had the saying, "eat the town". Carry as much as you're willing, eat all day (slow drip, as mentioned before) and hit as many towns as you like. While there, eat everything in sight. It's one of the great caveats of AT version of an LD hike. These things will come easy to you once you've mastered your hiking style.
I'm not a physician or nutritionist. YMMV.
MuddyWaters
04-29-2019, 13:37
I'm not a physician or nutritionist. YMMV.
Me neither
But i believe empty calories are better than no calories
So if all you can choke down on trail is chocolate frosting and twinkies....have at it .
The calories in calories out method only works in a test tube environment. It's NOT how the human body works.
You don't need to eat 3000 calories if you're gonna burn 3000 calories
Good luck with that theory...
No, it's true. Any long distance athlete is somewhat fat adapted. You are not entirely burning dietary calories, you are burning your tummy.
At least you better be if you want to be successful at this line of work.
The calories in/calories out theory never worked for dieting because calories are not equal to each other and the theory ignores the effects of hormones like insulin. It doesn't work for hiking either. If we had to eat 6000 calories for every trek we ever took, our species would have fallen flat thousands of years ago. Probably the greatest physical feats ever done were done fasted, by fat adapted individuals.
I'm not debating the merits of fat adaptation because they're outside the scope of the general physics of the matter. Yes - you can burn off existing fat stores in your body. That doesn't change anything about total energy needs, however. If you are burning 'x' number of calories in a day, you will lose weight if you don't replace that amount of energy.
Puddlefish
04-29-2019, 17:18
Once the hunger kicked in, I just carried a lot of food weight, and ignored any pounds per day guidelines about food. I tried for generally healthy calorie dense foods of course. Slower burning foods to start the day, faster burning foods immediately before a steep elevation climb.
Three meals idle a day, and non stop eating whatever I could fit in my hip belt pockets.
The only difficult thing was ceasing to eat like a pig when I got off the trail.
...I'm convinced that some ways of consuming calories are more efficient that others. Eating smaller amounts throughout the hiking day (the slow drip method) probably makes better use of calories than packing all of those calories into 2 or 3 traditional "meals" a day. Also, if a hiker goes five days at 4000 calories per day they probably make more efficient use of those calories than someone who eats 3000 calories for four days on the trail and then gorges 8000 calories in town on the fifth day. Both consume 20,000 calories in five days but I'll bet the steady eater would lose less weight than the hiker who binges.
Agree!
There are other aspects of consuming calories in ways or under conditions that are more efficient that others i.e.; - health micro biome(gut health), hydration level, wider aspects of nutrition beyond cals and cal/oz ratios,...
As an ULer with, IMO, a fairly advanced approach to consumable wt and bulk savings, I consider food, wider nutritional profiles, and caloric usage as a resource to be consumed efficiently. I consume less food in part because I adjust my output levels(pace), etc, where I get the most caloric boost input of resources verse output rewards. I don't go balls to the wall all the time. I use food, and hence energy, hence the POTENTIAL caloric energy in food, as efficiently as I can.
"Do my food/Calorie numbers seem reasonable? If so, do you all run significantly shy of calorie needs on the trail to keep weight down and just rely on making that back with nero/zeroes? I'm thinking I have to be missing something major here...."
They don't seem reasonable.
1) @ 3 lbs(48 oz) food/day @ 8500- 9000 cals/day that's about a 180-185 cal/oz ratio. That's an exceptionally high Keto Diet like fat content diet of 84% of your daily calories coming from fat. Attempting to obtain a wider nutritional density with that high a daily fat content will be difficult likely among even diehard Keto dieters. I'd strongly suggest unless you're well informed about Keto Diets and maintain a Keto dietary approach pre 2 month hike you not have that high a cal/oz ratio on trail. It will be difficult getting your nutrition. Nutrition and energy is NOT, I repeat NOT, existent and determined by calories alone! The caloric energy in a food is potential energy. Converting it into useful kinetic energy is a process that is affected by range of aspects.
2) Its' a mistaken thru hiking and LASHing notion one can always some how make up for a longer term 4-5+ days nutritional and caloric deficit by in town gorging at zeros and neros every 5 days. That is not the way we function. There are potential negative consequences to that approach that few ever relate anyhow. For example, what if gorging at pig fests becomes habitual as it often can be among our U.S. compatriot LASHers and thru hikers post hike? What happens in performance and energy level metrics after a pig fest while returning to trail after a nero or zero? Nap time? I witness people regularly heading back to trail after a pig fest, while also realizing the consequences when I once did it, walking lethargically with a heaviness because so much energy is being diverted to digesting 1000's and 1000's of calories, often junk food calories. In town and Nero visits can be accompanied by problematic other behaviors so in a sense we are in a state of detoxification heading out of town. Combine this energy sucking vortex of a situation with a heavier consumables category after a resupply at an in town visit. After an in town visit one would expect people heading back to trail refreshed yet the opposite is often the case.
Want to lower your consumable wt?
1) Resupply more often. The AT is great for regular resupply opps.
2) Supplement food, snacks, and H2O. The AT is generally considered a food abundant and wet trail overall.
3) If the 2 months is during summer and shoulder seasons night hike. The AT is a maintained wider highly and regularly blazed and signed single track tread generally optimal for night hiking conditions. Night hiking means you'll need to carry less H2O wt and sweat less making for greater caloric/food and H2O efficiency. When it's cooler and we're backpacking under less physical and mental duress we consume less. This requires healthy consideration of consumption which U.S. citizens are not in the habit.
4) Reduce body fat if obese or more than 20-25 over wt. Fatter people eat more food. Don't wait to start this body fat reduction until on trail. Don't assume excessive body fat is a good thing on trail. It's still wt and volume one has to carry.
5) Consume less sugar. When I began doing these things I was astounded realizing 10-12% of my on trail food wt was sugar, often refined sugar, weight. Sugar hampers satiation and consistent maintenance of energy levels resulting in blood sugar highs/lows - energy roller coasting - often addressed with consumption of more sugar or increased lethargy. As Mapman said constant grazing, particularly of non sugary snacks and large meals, is the goal. It can assist maintaining blood sugar levels and therefore result in less binge eating.
6) Avoid the wt and possible lack of satiation consequences by avoiding highly processed pre packed food like experimentation particularly food additives that this type of "food" often contains that have been demonstrated to interfere with satiation neurotransmitter control mechanisms within the brain. A LASH or LD hike's added caloric and nutritional requirements is not an excuse to continue with off trail junk food gorging and diets unless one is unconcerned with hiking performance and energy consistency. Habituation to on trail junk food gorging can be problematic not only on trail but, if one continues, and many do just that, post hike off trail.
7) Consider one's drug use including prescription and OTC drugs as some can interfere with satiation, nutrient assimilation and absorption. Remember, calories and wider nutrition consumption does NOT, I repeat does NOT, necessarily mean one is optimally digesting and assimilating those nutrients. That equates with carrying food nutrients, which have wt, that aren't being utilized.
8) DRINK more water! It is the elixir of life. It helps to achieve satiation and assimilation of nutrients. It's one of the best ways to lower food wt and increase a feeling of satiation.
9) Dial in AT H2O logistics. Water is CONCENTRATED HEAVY WT! The AT also has uber documented water sources and their reliability. Vastly, AT shelters are located near or at H2O sources. AT shelters are spaced apart something like every 8-9 miles. AT water logistics are some of the simplest and easiest of any LD hike H2O logistics I've ever completed in the U.S. Unwisely carrying just 1 extra L of H2O due to ignorance of personal water needs and water locations equates in unnecessarily carrying 2.2 lbs of wt and bulk.
10) Use the AT's abundant uber documented infrastructure, comforts, and conveniences to lower consumable wt and volume.
11) Pre hike begin detoxing and creating a healthier gut. A healthy micro biome one can assimilate more nutrients in what is consumed while offering increased immunological and cognitive function. When one isn't prone to having their immune systems attacked and impacted and having greater mental clarity studies have demonstrated we're less likely to over eat. Less over eating(less consumption) equates with less food wt hauled. BTW, dont do 3 heavy square meals per day. Make it 5 or more with constant small grazing. You're less likely to over eat or potentially, feel hungry.
T.S.Kobzol
04-29-2019, 19:55
Are You worried you could lose weight?
I mean if you could benefit to lose some pounds then do not worry about carrying so much food and exercise mind over food skills
(Intermittent starving is healthy)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well, as a fellow big hiker (280lbs) there are some challenges and differences that you need to account for. For one thing your gear is going to be a little heavier. (I need a larger tent, large sleeping pad, x-large quilt, 2XL clothes, etc., and all of that is a little heavier.) You'll also need more food and water. The good news is that you're a lot bigger and stronger than most hikers so that extra weight isn't that big of a deal proportionally. There are plenty of smaller hikers that feel a 20 lb pack a lot more that you're going to feel a 40 lb pack so don't try to compare your carry weight to someone that's 1/2 your size :).
I'm less concerned about what I CAN do and just trying to minimize what I NEED to do. A big part of that is the pack itself. Right now, I have an older 70cuft internal frame that clocks in at almost 6lb (and cost $40 new at the time). That pack has no practical weight limit for me on something like this trip, but I could drop over 3.5lb if I was able to go all the way down to something like the Arc Haul.
So, for a 5 day hike I'll be carrying about 28.5 lbs at the start of a hike. If you add another .5 lbs of food per day you'd only be at 31 lbs. Not saying that's a perfect number but it's a lot less than 40 and I don't think that's an unreasonable planning number for a big guy.
Most of the numbers I was coming up with were putting me in the mid to lower 30s. Again, I'm not that concerned with the weight itself (particularly since the food weight will rapidly drop off on the trail), but rather having to bump up weight tiers on the packs themselves.
As far as packs go 30 lbs is right in the wheel house for most of them. The Arc Haul is a good choice and the Exos Atmos carries very comfortably. I've used both and either will handle that kind of weight with no issue.
I've seen a lot of reviews that indicate the Arc Haul in particular performs poorly above 25-26lb. It's just too much of an investment/risk for me to get one of those packs for the higher weights, and you seem to have confirmed the weight band, even if I run a substantial calorie deficit (thank you for that!). I've also seen reviews indicating the Exos works well until about 30lb, but that's going to be right at the lower edge for me on resupply even if I can get by at 2lb food per day, etc.
Once the hunger kicked in, I just carried a lot of food weight, and ignored any pounds per day guidelines about food. I tried for generally healthy calorie dense foods of course. Slower burning foods to start the day, faster burning foods immediately before a steep elevation climb.
I absolutely intend to do this. I'm just trying to figure out what my realistic weighting will be for pack selection, so I don't pick a pack that can't handle it well.
MuddyWaters
04-30-2019, 01:43
The calories in/calories out theory never worked for dieting because calories are not equal to each other and the theory ignores the effects of hormones like insulin. It doesn't work for hiking either. If we had to eat 6000 calories for every trek we ever took, our species would have fallen flat thousands of years ago. Probably the greatest physical feats ever done were done fasted, by fat adapted individuals.
I dont think you understand thermodynamics and an energy balance.
Energy in-energy out=accumulation
Unless you are converting mass to energy via e=mc2, i assure you the energy balance is correct. If someone doesnt understand it, that just them.
A calorie, is a calorie. Its a unit of energy. Energy is consumed by body, expended, and stored. Some energy is used converting one fuel source into another, and some is used to simply maintain body homeostasis. Some may be excreted without being absorbed by body due to innefficiency or problem in digestive system. It well known it requires about 25% more energy to convert protein to energy form that the body can store compared to carbs or fats...so you can eat 25% more protein without gaining weight. That doesnt mean a calorie isnt a calorie....it means some people just dont understand.
But it is ALWAYS correct if your intelligent enough to add up the factors involved correctly. Guaranteed. Its a law of thermodynamics. Energy is not created, or destroyed, it just changes forms and internal energy of objects.
It most certainly does work to predict weight lose and gain as well. Realizing that body wt changes are not just fat storage, water is stored as well. In process of storing glycogen as fuel in muscles, body stores 3 g water per g glycogen. When most people diet they dont realize all they lose first week + is glycogen and water, they havent lost any fat at all yet.
"
1) @ 3 lbs(48 oz) food/day @ 8500- 9000 cals/day that's about a 180-185 cal/oz ratio. That's an exceptionally high Keto Diet like fat content diet of 84% of your daily calories coming from fat. Attempting to obtain a wider nutritional density with that high a daily fat content will be difficult likely among even diehard Keto dieters. I'd strongly suggest unless you're well informed about Keto Diets and maintain a Keto dietary approach pre 2 month hike you not have that high a cal/oz ratio on trail. It will be difficult getting your nutrition. Nutrition and energy is NOT, I repeat NOT, existent and determined by calories alone! The caloric energy in a food is potential energy. Converting it into useful kinetic energy is a process that is affected by range of aspects.
I should clarify. The 3lb estimate was rounded down from my calculation, was for dry food only and did not include a bottle of olive oil on another line item, assumed at least some weight loss due to caloric expenditure on the trail, and assumed some recovery in town. So many people act like 3lb of food is crazy excessive, and I keep coming up with that on the extreme low end of my estimates. It sounds like you are agreeing that those calorie estimates (for 200-220lb range) seem reasonable for long days of hiking, correct? I can figure out the food weight/bulk easy enough from that (and I'll go far enough to estimate directly from my planned meals).
As stated, my goal here was with regards to weight planning. I'm not trying to figure out my entire dietary intake quantity-wise (I'd rather just eat when I feel hungry, or force myself to eat more if I'm getting too light). I just have to figure out weight/volume totals for my consumables so I can pick a pack and test it out over the summer without wasting a lot of cash.
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2) Its' a mistaken thru hiking and LASHing notion one can always some how make up for a longer term 4-5+ days [COLOR=#333333]nutritional and caloric deficit by in town gorging at zeros and neros every 5 days.
I was looking at this as more of a reduced caloric expenditure in town (closer to my current rate), and only slightly elevated intake. I doubt I could consume more than 2500-3000 calories in a sitting even if I tried, at least without making myself ill. Is there something wrong with that even intake variable expenditure approach to calculation?
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3) If the 2 months is during summer and shoulder seasons night hike. The AT is a maintained wider highly and regularly blazed and signed single track tread generally optimal for night hiking conditions. Night hiking means you'll need to carry less H2O wt and sweat less making for greater caloric/food and H2O efficiency. When it's cooler and we're backpacking under less physical and mental duress we consume less. This requires healthy consideration of consumption which U.S. citizens are not in the habit.
I already do this extensively in the summer. I go through crazy quantities of water otherwise. I'm planning this for early spring, though, so less of a concern for water consumption.
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4) Reduce body fat if obese or more than 20-25 over wt. Fatter people eat more food. Don't wait to start this body fat reduction until on trail. Don't assume excessive body fat is a good thing on trail. It's still wt and volume one has to carry.
From past years winter-weight, I expect to be starting at roughly 10% over ideal. Not perfect, but nothing crazy. I'm guessing much of that would be gone well before the end of the first month.
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5) Consume less sugar. When I began doing these things I was astounded realizing 10-12% of my on trail food wt was sugar, often refined sugar, weight. Sugar hampers satiation and consistent maintenance of energy levels resulting in blood sugar highs/lows - energy roller coasting - often addressed with consumption of more sugar or increased lethargy. As Mapman said constant grazing, particularly of non sugary snacks and large meals, is the goal. It can assist maintaining blood sugar levels and therefore result in less binge eating.
I tend to eat a large portion of fruit, but very little refined sugars. I don't see that changing much on trail, and the fiber in dried fruits always seems to balance the satiation aspect over the raw sugars just like in fresh fruits.
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6) Avoid the wt and possible lack of satiation consequences by avoiding highly processed pre packed food like experimentation particularly food additives that this type of "food" often contains that have been demonstrated to interfere with satiation neurotransmitter control mechanisms within the brain. A LASH or LD hike's added caloric and nutritional requirements is not an excuse to continue with off trail junk food gorging and diets unless one is unconcerned with hiking performance and energy consistency. Habituation to on trail junk food gorging can be problematic not only on trail but, if one continues, and many do just that, post hike off trail.
I'll be preparing a good chunk of my food in advance, and I'll be eating very well quality-wise. I only eat poultry/fish for meat, and I need to avoid cashews/mangos/pistachios (severe urushiol allergy I can't risk making worse). So that rules out a lot of the pre-packaged backpacking meals, trail mixes, etc. I'm guessing I'll get really sick of the same selections of safe packable stuff from the supermarkets, so I'll be arranging for drops to a large number of the stops. I've already got my dehydrators going on the staples (legumes, quinoa, brown/wild rice, whole wheat pasta, etc.), and I'll switch over to drying fruits/vegetables when they come into season, and then meats over the winter (to minimize freezer space). The pre-cooked dehydrating aspect is new for me, but the fresh food processing of the fruits/veggies as they come in is a yearly thing, anyhow.
But it is ALWAYS correct if your intelligent enough to add up the factors involved correctly. Guaranteed. Its a law of thermodynamics. Energy is not created, or destroyed, it just changes forms and internal energy of objects.
Absolutely! That's where the easy estimates like "net Calories" come in. Foods like raw celery really do have some macro-nutrients in them, it just takes our bodies so much energy to extract it that it's near zero calorie-wise.
Individual aspects add up too, like I can eat a very large quantity of fresh/dried fruit without it bothering my digestion, but if most people attempt to eat a quarter bag of prunes, the resulting *situation* is not going to be very calorie efficient vs. just eating one or two. I don't happen to do so well with greasy foods compared to most, though.
I've seen a lot of reviews that indicate the Arc Haul in particular performs poorly above 25-26lb. It's just too much of an investment/risk for me to get one of those packs for the higher weights, and you seem to have confirmed the weight band, even if I run a substantial calorie deficit (thank you for that!). I've also seen reviews indicating the Exos works well until about 30lb, but that's going to be right at the lower edge for me on resupply even if I can get by at 2lb food per day, etc.[/QUOTE]
Just to ease your concerns on the pack. I had an Archaul that I used for a couple years. It's a good pack and I think that it handled 30 lbs just fine and a bit more than that when I needed it to. What I didn't like about it was how fiddly all of the straps and adjustments are. Plus, all of the adjustments are hiker-sized so I was pretty closed to maxed out on the lengths and I had trouble with straps loosening and slipping frequently and the thin straps chaffed more than I'd like. That's a really personal thing though and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend an Archaul as a solid light weight pack choice.
I am currently using a HyperLight Mountain Gear 4500 Southwest and I really love their packs. They are a pretty basic DCF bag with aluminum stays and heavy duty fabric. They are a bit heavier than the Z-packs stuff because of the material. That's what I like in my gear though: simple, tough, and light (but it's not cheap.) 40 lbs isn't a problem for the pack :)
I agree that the EXOS is a little questionable at that carry weight IMPE. Again, a nice bag with a great warranty but everything in it feels pretty, well, lightweight to me and I'm a big guy that puts a lot of stress on my gear. The ATMOS, on the other hand, was a very sturdy bag that carried weight really comfortably. It's not a light bag though plus it's nylon so it gets heavier in rain. You also have to be a little extra careful about packing your gear to keep it dry. That being said, it's still not a bad choice to my mind and I wouldn't be concerned about loads up to 50 lbs in that bag. Yes, it is heavier but it distributes the load well and is comfortable so that may be worth a couple of extra lbs in total weight to you.
JMHO :)
Despite trying not to apply what I do and where I'm at in reducing food to your situation YES IMHO 3+ lbs of food/day seems excessive. Why are you not adding in the olive oil into your food wt? If its being eaten it's food wt.
"I just have to figure out weight/volume totals for my consumables so I can pick a pack and test it out over the summer without wasting a lot of cash."
Yeah, but that's also a function of your food bulk not just food wt, anticipated frequency of resupply, how much your diet and other factors capture those food cals and food nutrition BEYOND calories,...
A calorie is NOT a calorie is NOT a calorie. I'll say it again; no food is alienated calories, just calories. You can't just consume calories alienated from other compounds and substances. Food is not just calories! Food is MORE than calories. Thinking of food just as calories is overly simplistic and incorrect. The 4 calories in a gram of simple carbs(sugar) of a can of sugary Coke which is basically sugar water is not the same as a 4 calories in a gram of complex carbs in broccoli even though a gram of either are 4 cals. The 9 calories of fat in a gram of man made artificial hydrogenated oil fat is NOT the same as 9 calories in a gram of fat from an avocado or 9 calories in gram of fat in wild salmon. You cant isolate consuming calories outside of a larger perspective of consuming food.
MtDoraDave
05-04-2019, 18:31
I found that one pack of Pop tarts for breakfast will get me a couple hours down the trail before I feel the need to get into my Cliff bars, yet three packets of instant oatmeal for breakfast wouldn't last me but about 30 minutes before I got into my Cliff bars.
...I tried the Pop tarts after someone told me to eat more fat.
.
Have you checked out the ULA circuit or catalyst? They are a bit heavier than the zpacs stuff, but are rated for more weight - and users have said the extra weight carries well. I haven't had a chance to put many miles on my Circuit, but the day hike I did felt great.
MuddyWaters
05-04-2019, 22:02
I found that one pack of Pop tarts for breakfast will get me a couple hours down the trail before I feel the need to get into my Cliff bars, yet three packets of instant oatmeal for breakfast wouldn't last me but about 30 minutes before I got into my Cliff bars.
...I tried the Pop tarts after someone told me to eat more fat.
.
Have you checked out the ULA circuit or catalyst? They are a bit heavier than the zpacs stuff, but are rated for more weight - and users have said the extra weight carries well. I haven't had a chance to put many miles on my Circuit, but the day hike I did felt great.
I rate , personally, my arc blast to 25, my circuit to 28 .
In low 30s, you need a coventional pack , like osprey atmos.
The wt will be stable, not bouncing and sagging with every step. It will feel lighter than in overloaded pack.
I usually eat a quick snack before hitting the trail in the morning. Might be a Snickers, might be a packet of little chocolate donuts if I'm lucky. But I stop for a real breakfast a few hours later and usually have granola /dried fruit/milk. Is probably my favorite meal of the day. Cuts into miles . Every time stop to eat , costs 1 mpd. Eating on fly is good way to add 3-4 miles to day.
Thank you all for your thoughts. I ended up ordering a Seek Outside Unaweep 4800 with the 4" frame extensions, so I should have no practical pack weight limit. I'm not about to treat that as a license to carry crap, though, and base is still well under 20lb. Assuming it fits well, that's one more item off the checklist.
... I'm planning this for early spring, though, so less of a concern for water consumption.
Staying hydrated is still a concern from many different aspects including appetite modulation.
I tend to eat a large portion of fruit, but very little refined sugars. I don't see that changing much on trail, and the fiber in dried fruits always seems to balance the satiation aspect over the raw sugars just like in fresh fruits.
Ahh very nice. You see the relationship with sugar and fiber intake together in energy consistency.
I'll be preparing a good chunk of my food in advance, and I'll be eating very well quality-wise. I only eat poultry/fish for meat, and I need to avoid cashews/mangos/pistachios (severe urushiol allergy I can't risk making worse). So that rules out a lot of the pre-packaged backpacking meals, trail mixes, etc. I'm guessing I'll get really sick of the same selections of safe packable stuff from the supermarkets, so I'll be arranging for drops to a large number of the stops. I've already got my dehydrators going on the staples (legumes, quinoa, brown/wild rice, whole wheat pasta, etc.), and I'll switch over to drying fruits/vegetables when they come into season, and then meats over the winter (to minimize freezer space). The pre-cooked dehydrating aspect is new for me, but the fresh food processing of the fruits/veggies as they come in is a yearly thing, anyhow.
You may be able to consume mango if you avoid the tree sap, leaves, and skin of the fruit as I'm fairly certain mango flesh doesn't contain urushiol. The skin is the biggest container of urushoil. Have someone else peel fresh mango, have them rinse it including after they peel/slice it, and eat or buy dried mango slices with skin removed. I've seen folks with severe Anacardiaceae botanical family allergies eating mango this way. Cashews are actually washed even raw ones to remove the urushoil. I dont know for sure if trace amts of urushoil are left behind. In pistachios it's the shells and paper like "husk" where most of the urusoil is contained. If you have a severe life threatening allergy than perhaps it's best to stay away. However, I do know folks in Hawaii and Florida who are heavily allergic to urushoil that do consume all these foods.
"Pasta" is now available made from a variety of whole grains, seeds, legumes, etc so no need to limit your diet to wheat pasta. ie: quinoa, black beans, lentils, edamame, rice, non GMO corn, etc. They are even available in some degree to southeastern mainstream AT med-lg grocery stores.
Meh...pop-tarts/peanut butter, tortillas and bean dip/pepperoni (combined is delicious), tuna packet on flat bread, GORP...The list of combinations from dollar store is endless. Pizza and burgers in town along with tons of fruits. Don't forget town hydration, aka beer.
MW and Dogwood are infinitely more educated and involved than me. I didn't take a very in depth approach after a while on trail. Eat everything and hike your a$$ off.
Disclaimer: If you are older, diabetic, vegan, lactose intolerant, tired or otherwise limited...forget my advice.
Just having fun, guys. Please don't torture me for being a smart-aleck.
I don't mean that older diabetics (etc, etc) are limited. Dang, it's hard to post satire now without offense.....
You may be able to consume mango if you avoid the tree sap, leaves, and skin of the fruit as I'm fairly certain mango flesh doesn't contain urushiol. The skin is the biggest container of urushoil. Have someone else peel fresh mango, have them rinse it including after they peel/slice it, and eat or buy dried mango slices with skin removed. I've seen folks with severe Anacardiaceae botanical family allergies eating mango this way. Cashews are actually washed even raw ones to remove the urushoil. I dont know for sure if trace amts of urushoil are left behind. In pistachios it's the shells and paper like "husk" where most of the urusoil is contained. If you have a severe life threatening allergy than perhaps it's best to stay away. However, I do know folks in Hawaii and Florida who are heavily allergic to urushoil that do consume all these foods.
As far as I know, that's all 100% correct, and I never noticed issues handling mangos previously (used to eat them a lot, but I'm particular about washing my hands frequently during prep, so likely washed it right off). The last time I was exposed to poison ivy (transferred from a pup), I managed to avoid the ER, but not by much (according to two medical professionals, after seeing the photos). I still ended up with my eyes swelled completely shut for half a day (i.e. complete vision loss, except for light/shadow), and hives all over, despite starting high dose prednisone (used as an immune system suppressant) early on. Without Zanfel drastically cutting down the quantity present in my skin, I think it would have been so much worse. Even then, it took 6 weeks for the last of the initial rash to go away. The severity of the reaction increases with cumulative exposure, though, so the next one is supposed to be much worse. I have no idea how bad, so I'm requesting a course of prednisone before my hike (for the first aid pouch), just in case.
It is well documented that dogs can eat poison ivy, and it doesn't seem to cause them any trouble symptom-wise. If they get any on their skin (as in, past the fur), they break out and itch just like we do. I wouldn't be surprised if the internal vs. external effect is the same for humans. I definitely saw the equivalent behavior where the urushiol entered my bloodstream from the skin exposure, and then I didn't see the systemic reaction until it hit my skin elsewhere (presenting first on the softest skin and progressing pretty much everywhere but the toughest callouses).
I doubt I would even show short-term symptoms if I ate a pile of mango skins. I can't really justify the risk of making a future outbreak worse years down the line from continually eating trace quantities, though. That was downright miserable last time, let alone the repeated secondary exposures down the line (involving whole house carpet/upholstery cleanings, re-washing all clothing/bedding many time, etc.). I'd much rather break a rib or two than go through that again.
MuddyWaters
05-08-2019, 04:54
As far as I know, that's all 100% correct, and I never noticed issues handling mangos previously (used to eat them a lot, but I'm particular about washing my hands frequently during prep, so likely washed it right off). The last time I was exposed to poison ivy (transferred from a pup), I managed to avoid the ER, but not by much (according to two medical professionals, after seeing the photos). I still ended up with my eyes swelled completely shut for half a day (i.e. complete vision loss, except for light/shadow), and hives all over, despite starting high dose prednisone (used as an immune system suppressant) early on. Without Zanfel drastically cutting down the quantity present in my skin, I think it would have been so much worse. Even then, it took 6 weeks for the last of the initial rash to go away. The severity of the reaction increases with cumulative exposure, though, so the next one is supposed to be much worse. I have no idea how bad, so I'm requesting a course of prednisone before my hike (for the first aid pouch), just in case.
You know they have poision ivy in the woods, right? Not a little either.
Sounds like you are hyper sensitive
OK, Einstein, eat 100 calories of sugar and 100 calories of steak and tell me that they are equal in terms of how your body uses them. Calories are not equal in terms of how the body operates, is what I was very clearly saying.
Had you actually said something resembling that, you would have received vastly different responses.
SC_Forester
05-11-2019, 10:28
...
I'll be preparing a good chunk of my food in advance, and I'll be eating very well quality-wise. I only eat poultry/fish for meat, and I need to avoid cashews/mangos/pistachios (severe urushiol allergy I can't risk making worse).
Welcome to the club of being allergic to Mangos, Cashews and Pistachios. I am too, surprisingly more so than poison ivy. The good news is when the nuts are roasted it breaks down the urishiol oil. I have never had a problem eating commercially bought cashews and pistachios. I do have to stay away from the raw nuts fruits and the trees. Mangoes are the just the spawn fruit of satin! The flesh is safe to eat up but i cant even enjoy the flavor of it anymore.
MuddyWaters
05-11-2019, 10:56
OK, Einstein, eat 100 calories of sugar and 100 calories of steak and tell me that they are equal in terms of how your body uses them. Calories are not equal in terms of how the body operates, is what I was very clearly saying.
Not that different in reality, because protein is a minor part of most peoples intake. No one wants to eat 20 skinless chicken breasts per day, or even 3. Been there.
I used to diet when weightlifting periodically to cut up.
Honest....wendys frosty and spicy chicken nuggets were my main lunch many days. If you do enough cardio, and restrict calories, graph it, have it under control.....it doesnt matter what you eat. Within reason. I got charts showing i lost weight slowly below 2300 cal. Goal was 1/2 lb per week. Weighing same time every morning, same scale is repeatable enough to trend well , consistent, predictable.
Counting calories works perfect......if you know what your doing. No ,you cant predict based on only intake, because you dont know basal metabolic rate, or caloric daily expenditures, or how it will slow as body adapts and becomes more efficient, with any accuracy. When you graph it....you figure it out, and it covers all the things you cant know. The percentage of protein in your diet is also pretty constant.
Most people with experience hiking have learned what caloric intake works for them as well, based on wt changes.
Welcome to the club of being allergic to Mangos, Cashews and Pistachios. I am too, surprisingly more so than poison ivy. The good news is when the nuts are roasted it breaks down the urishiol oil. I have never had a problem eating commercially bought cashews and pistachios. I do have to stay away from the raw nuts fruits and the trees. Mangoes are the just the spawn fruit of satin! The flesh is safe to eat up but i cant even enjoy the flavor of it anymore.
Mangoes are the spawn of satin. :(
Do you know for a fact urushiol is broken down when roasting the nuts? It makes sense.
I once worked on a landscaping crew with 3 Brazilian family members, two brothers and an Uncle, and two others removing extensive poison ivy infestations. The one brother and Uncle in teh middle of summer with no shirts or gloves on would rip it out with no chemical reaction holding heaps of it up against their bare chests throwing it into a dumpster. The other brother was mildly sensitive. At that time all I had to do was look at poison ivy and I'd break out. My sensitivity has lessened for what ever reasons that I now rarely get it with mild exposure.
SC_Forester
05-11-2019, 16:15
[QUOTE=
Do you know for a fact urushiol is broken down when roasting the nuts? It makes sense.
.[/QUOTE]
I do know that it is broken down under high heat. I cannot quickly provide a link to reputable source. So it really just my word.
If you're a SC forester as a Landscape Architect and hort I'll take you at your word family. ;)