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greenmtnboy
05-13-2019, 16:17
How would hikers rate mace or pepper spray as a self-defense option? Bears? Dangerous people? Few people are trained in the martial arts or self-defense. What other options would you recommend? https://youtu.be/yhJvKdk4lts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sme9HSirf4

TNhiker
05-13-2019, 16:33
first in to say "gun"....

HooKooDooKu
05-13-2019, 16:36
While it might be for self-defense, pepper spray is considered a type of weapon, and various jurisdictions are going to have varying rules and regulations regarding the carrying of this weapon.

Two VERY different examples I happen to be familiar with:
Great Smoky Mountains National Park - Pepper spray is allowed, but it must be commercially made, specifically labeled as "Bear Spray", with limits on the strength of the active ingredients.
Yosemite National Park - Pepper spray is not allowed at all (even if it's labeled "Bear Spray" and your justification is self defense from bears).

HooKooDooKu
05-13-2019, 16:37
first in to say "gun"....
Yeah, I was very conscientious is formulating a response to avoid the use of "that" word.

Feral Bill
05-13-2019, 16:40
first in to say "gun".... 1. Legal issues in several trail states. 2. Requires quality training, and temperament to be effective. 3. Heavy, compared to pepper spray.

Deadeye
05-13-2019, 16:47
First in to say "nothing", or nothing more than you would have walking down the street. Yes, someone was just killed by a machete-wielding wacko, but it's such a rarity. You're much more likely to be killed by said machete-wielding wacko on the street, but do you carry anything in your hometown? If you do, carry it on the trail if you like.

C4web88
05-13-2019, 16:50
1. Legal issues in several trail states. 2. Requires quality training, and temperament to be effective. 3. Heavy, compared to pepper spray.

By several do you mean 3? MD, NY, and NJ are the only may issue states that consistently deny CCW applicants.

Pepper spray requires certain conditions to be effective as well, no wind, very limited range, and if the assailant is wearing eye protection or correction you have issues as well.

Weight is definitely a benefit. The lightest effective (arguably) pocket carry pistol out there loaded with hollow points is around 14 oz.

The best self defense option out there is situational awareness, the tool between your ears.

TNhiker
05-13-2019, 16:53
1. Legal issues in several trail states. 2. Requires quality training, and temperament to be effective. 3. Heavy, compared to pepper spray.



i was merely implying, and since the thread was fresh and new, that it would come up...

let the poop storm begin over it.....

ocourse
05-13-2019, 17:08
It's pretty useless to discuss this question. Hike your own hike. People should keep defense products inside their backpacks, and be completely unaware of their surroundings. Also, it's best to use earbuds to listen to music.

stephanD
05-13-2019, 17:19
My bear spray canister is my best new friend....

LoneStranger
05-13-2019, 17:35
How would hikers rate mace or pepper spray as a self-defense option? Bears? Dangerous people? ...
I think I would rank them in this order:

1 Bears
2 Dangerous people
3 Mace
4 Pepper spray

That would change though if combinations were considered because a dangerous person riding a bear and swinging a mace would totally be my number one self defense option given the chance.

John B
05-13-2019, 17:42
In light of what has recently transpired, and particularly since I nearly always hike alone, I am going to give a lot of serious thought to what I have never brought with me in the past and what I might in the future.

perdidochas
05-13-2019, 18:00
How would hikers rate mace or pepper spray as a self-defense option? Bears? Dangerous people? Few people are trained in the martial arts or self-defense. What other options would you recommend? https://youtu.be/yhJvKdk4lts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sme9HSirf4

If I were in grizzly bear country, I'd get a bear spray, but other than that, I would just say use your common sense.

Eigerhiker
05-13-2019, 18:29
Self defense can be a pretty straight forward idea. First, do whatever feels the most natural and logical for you. Second, train in that methodology. Third, understand that violence can be swift, it can be shocking and it usually hurts. Learn to manage those sensations and bring the fight to your attacker.

If you can run, run as fast and far away as you can. Don’t always trust your instincts. While they may serve you well with the average criminal element, the true predators of society have polished their image enough to be very friendly and welcoming up to the point of assault.

Pepper spray is not a great defensive tool, several factors (I.e. wind, rain, glasses or contacts as well as physiology) affect its ability to stop an aggressor. You can also be affected by it if the wind brings it in your direction. What was meant as a force multiplier to protect yourself has now interrupted your self defense strategy.

Hiking poles can be useful but you have to fully commit to that first strike because you may lose a second strike capability once they know your intent.

Encountering someone with an edged weapon can be terrifying. They can cause horrible injuries and rapid blood loss. A three inch blade can sever, puncture or lacerate every major artery in the human body. Never underestimate how dangerous a knife can be.

Stay focused on the point of threat (usually the hands), their eyes, waist and feet don’t matter, what matters is the action of their threat delivery. If they have a knife, stick or rock, or are punching at you, watch the hands. If they are kicking you watch the knees and feet. Move as much as possible offline from the direction of attack.

What I choose to protect myself is my business. Being trained, confident and capable in your abilities takes time, practice and commitment. Choose one or two and become an expert. Personally, having this confidence allows me to enjoy my experiences without thinking about bad people. Most people are good and I love interacting with them. If bad crosses my path, I will do whatever it take to avoid it. If it can’t be avoided or they are threatening someone I love or someone more vulnerable, then for me the choice is clear.

Shooting Star
05-13-2019, 19:26
Those poor hikers found themselves in a worst case situation. They're in for the night, probably asleep and this dude shows
up. You stay quiet and hope he moves on but he does not. He starts threatening to gas and light your tent which probably gets
everyone up and out. What a mess. We'll learn more about what exactly happened.

Even if you have a gun, do you shoot the dude through the tent wall? Do you do this with the other tents next to you and
not knowing whether the others are up and out already? Or you're out with your gun but this guy is just feet away with a big
knife. There's no guarantee you can fire before he's on you and cutting you. This kind of violence is totally non-linear and
even gun people who train for these kind of close encounters consider this scary worst case stuff.


Self defense can be a pretty straight forward idea. First, do whatever feels the most natural and logical for you. Second, train in that methodology. Third, understand that violence can be swift, it can be shocking and it usually hurts. Learn to manage those sensations and bring the fight to your attacker.

If you can run, run as fast and far away as you can. Don’t always trust your instincts. While they may serve you well with the average criminal element, the true predators of society have polished their image enough to be very friendly and welcoming up to the point of assault.

Pepper spray is not a great defensive tool, several factors (I.e. wind, rain, glasses or contacts as well as physiology) affect its ability to stop an aggressor. You can also be affected by it if the wind brings it in your direction. What was meant as a force multiplier to protect yourself has now interrupted your self defense strategy.

Hiking poles can be useful but you have to fully commit to that first strike because you may lose a second strike capability once they know your intent.

Encountering someone with an edged weapon can be terrifying. They can cause horrible injuries and rapid blood loss. A three inch blade can sever, puncture or lacerate every major artery in the human body. Never underestimate how dangerous a knife can be.

Stay focused on the point of threat (usually the hands), their eyes, waist and feet don’t matter, what matters is the action of their threat delivery. If they have a knife, stick or rock, or are punching at you, watch the hands. If they are kicking you watch the knees and feet. Move as much as possible offline from the direction of attack.

What I choose to protect myself is my business. Being trained, confident and capable in your abilities takes time, practice and commitment. Choose one or two and become an expert. Personally, having this confidence allows me to enjoy my experiences without thinking about bad people. Most people are good and I love interacting with them. If bad crosses my path, I will do whatever it take to avoid it. If it can’t be avoided or they are threatening someone I love or someone more vulnerable, then for me the choice is clear.

4eyedbuzzard
05-13-2019, 19:55
How would hikers rate mace or pepper spray as a self-defense option? Bears? Dangerous people? Few people are trained in the martial arts or self-defense. What other options would you recommend? https://youtu.be/yhJvKdk4lts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sme9HSirf4The most dangerous creatures aside from people, from a standpoint of things that can harm you, on the AT are ticks, mice, dogs, snakes, moose, bear - pretty much in that order. Pepper spray is not completely legal in all states unless you comply with some unique laws, like NY's which require that you purchased it there. I believe CT or MA also has some restrictions.
first in to say "gun"....


1. Legal issues in several trail states. 2. Requires quality training, and temperament to be effective. 3. Heavy, compared to pepper spray.


By several do you mean 3? MD, NY, and NJ are the only may issue states that consistently deny CCW applicants.

Pepper spray requires certain conditions to be effective as well, no wind, very limited range, and if the assailant is wearing eye protection or correction you have issues as well.

Weight is definitely a benefit. The lightest effective (arguably) pocket carry pistol out there loaded with hollow points is around 14 oz.

Carrying concealed requires a permit that is honored in the state you are carrying the weapon. It's not always simple. Reciprocity with the state(s) you are licensed in is complicated. A few states honor all, some only honor other selected states, some don't honor non-resident permits, some honor none at all. Check here: https://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html Don't screw up. A felony conviction can ruin your otherwise wonderful life, never mind your hike.

It is difficult enough to secure a weapon 24/7 when around your home, car, workplace, etc. It's even more difficult on the trail. There's nowhere other than on your person to keep it secured. Makes going for water, to the privy, showering, going for a swim, etc all the more difficult. Can't leave it in your pack outside a store, etc. Think about it, it's a responsibility that isn't always easy to maintain. I'm not anti-gun - I own several and have a carry permit. But I don't think I'd take one on a long like.
The best self defense option out there is situational awareness, the tool between your ears.^^^THIS

Eigerhiker
05-13-2019, 20:12
Almost all violence is non-linear. Training and preparation give you the ability to make quick judgements under stress. That’s true in most professions where rapid judgement calls are necessary. People train to be good at a lot of things. Why not self-defense and critical thinking under stress.


Those poor hikers found themselves in a worst case situation.

Agree, I pray they find peace and healing.


Even if you have a gun, do you shoot the dude through the tent wall? Do you do this with the other tents next to you and not knowing whether the others are up and out already?

Are you being attacked through the tent? Is there a smell of fuel in the air? Do you hear other people outside the tent? Proper training and decision making skills are essential when using firearms. There is no definitive answer to your questions or mine, everything is scenario based.

Also, I never advocated for or against firearms in my response, only offered practical advice anyone can utilize if they’re so inclined.

Basically, the OP asked a question of the community, while I’m new here, I’m not new to this topic. A question was asked and an opinion was offered in return. Contributions allow us to make decisions based on the experience of others, like picking out a new piece of hiking gear.

MuddyWaters
05-13-2019, 21:18
First in to say "nothing", or nothing more than you would have walking down the street. Yes, someone was just killed by a machete-wielding wacko, but it's such a rarity. You're much more likely to be killed by said machete-wielding wacko on the street, but do you carry anything in your hometown? If you do, carry it on the trail if you like.

Exactly.
Nothing has changed
Your still as safe on trail as at home.

Trail is a representation of society at large.
It wasnt first time, it wont be last.
You can choose to live in fear, or not. Its up to you. Its a choice.

greenmtnboy
05-13-2019, 22:05
Thanks for the advice and that which may follow. I hiked 70% or more of the AT from GA to ME, missed some midsections south of the Shenandoahs. And the LT numerous times. I never had a threat or challenge from a hiker. I remember a wacko in PA who called himself "mountain man" hiking with "mountain dew" who was not soon after bounced from the trail. I would keep in mind with a society of fragmentation and people out of work, put on drugs, doing drugs, there are major imbalances in what should be the most physically challenging and healthy of activities if we are using the best of natural and healthy inputs.

cliffordbarnabus
05-13-2019, 23:44
we all die. everything does. nothing is forever, including those carbon to carbon bonds in a diamond.

give me a machete death on the AT versus cancer under hospital sheets.

not seeking death at all, just not wanting to worry about what - statistically - one should worry about more when getting into a car. or....even just waking up.

Mikerfixit
05-14-2019, 09:50
A rock.

A stout stick.

A pointy stick.

Rock in a sock or stuff sack with rocks

The weight that is used to toss a bear line.

The weight still attached to the bear line.

Stove fuel.

Poop trowel


Many things can be used as a weapon

FrogLevel
05-14-2019, 09:51
First in to say "nothing", or nothing more than you would have walking down the street. Yes, someone was just killed by a machete-wielding wacko, but it's such a rarity. You're much more likely to be killed by said machete-wielding wacko on the street, but do you carry anything in your hometown? If you do, carry it on the trail if you like.

That's why I got rid of all the fire extinguishers and smoke detectors in my house. Its just so unlikely the cost of batteries adds up over time.

MuddyWaters
05-14-2019, 10:06
12 people murdered in 45 yrs
1 every 4 yrs on avg, somewhere

2 people died in last 4 yrs from falling trees. To put that in perspective

2-3 deaths per year occur on trail. You are 10x more likely to die from something else, than be murdered.

But you can focus on the most horrific only if you like

martinb
05-14-2019, 10:07
we all die. everything does. nothing is forever, including those carbon to carbon bonds in a diamond.

give me a machete death on the AT versus cancer under hospital sheets.

not seeking death at all, just not wanting to worry about what - statistically - one should worry about more when getting into a car. or....even just waking up.
I would prefer to have some say so in my death if dealing with a crazy dude with a knife.

As for the topic, I carry spray, at all times. I've been the victim of a violent carjacking attempt so I take nothing for granted. Also, most states on the AT have some type of reciprocity for concealed carry. NY, NJ, and MD do not.

C4web88
05-14-2019, 10:15
12 people murdered in 45 yrs
1 every 4 yrs on avg, somewhere

2 people died in last 4 yrs from falling trees. To put that in perspective

2-3 deaths per year occur on trail. You are 10x more likely to die from something else, than be murdered.

And plane crashes are extremely rare and represent an extremely small portion of the overall amount of flights taken...yet every flight they're sure to demo the emergency exits, where the lifevests are located, and how to affix an oxygen mask. Just because it doesnt happen very often doesnt mean you should write it off or never discuss preparations. We don't rise to the occasion, we fall back on training and education.

I get what you're saying and all; letting stuff like this eat you up or allowing your fears drive your decisions all the time is unreasonable, but I dont think OPs discussion is the most mundane or unreasonable thing I've seen in an online forum.

devoidapop
05-14-2019, 11:30
12 people murdered in 45 yrs
1 every 4 yrs on avg, somewhere

2 people died in last 4 yrs from falling trees. To put that in perspective

2-3 deaths per year occur on trail. You are 10x more likely to die from something else, than be murdered.

But you can focus on the most horrific only if you like

I think death by fallen tree is a good comparison in risk and preparedness. You can't fight a tree off, but you can observe your surroundings and leave if the area is not safe.

Sometimes, the unexpected happens and gear, weapons, or training don't come into play.

Please don't pepper spray people or animals unless it's the least violent option left to you.

LazyLightning
05-14-2019, 12:27
I carried bear spray on my entire thru hike and I always will anywhere. Like someone on trail asked, no I haven't had to use it yet but I won't be upset if I never have to...

At the least, the bear spray could temporarily shock and blind an attacker giving you a chance to take greater action, like pull out a knife or use your sharp trekking poles as a weapon, or run like hell if that seems to be a better option.

I always said its not just for bears, if its going to help keep a bear from attacking I'm pretty sure it will make most other animals run the other way to... Of course its a worst case scenario to use it but its also a huge piece of mind having it.

wordstew
05-14-2019, 14:43
I do not advocate a firearm on the AT

Most people even ones who have some training are grossly under-prepared and under-trained to use a firearm especially under stress.

One Half
05-14-2019, 14:52
Awareness and then listening to your gut.

Good read for every person is "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin De Becker.

JNI64
05-14-2019, 14:58
Self defense can be a pretty straight forward idea. First, do whatever feels the most natural and logical for you. Second, train in that methodology. Third, understand that violence can be swift, it can be shocking and it usually hurts. Learn to manage those sensations and bring the fight to your attacker.

If you can run, run as fast and far away as you can. Don’t always trust your instincts. While they may serve you well with the average criminal element, the true predators of society have polished their image enough to be very friendly and welcoming up to the point of assault.

Pepper spray is not a great defensive tool, several factors (I.e. wind, rain, glasses or contacts as well as physiology) affect its ability to stop an aggressor. You can also be affected by it if the wind brings it in your direction. What was meant as a force multiplier to protect yourself has now interrupted your self defense strategy.

Hiking poles can be useful but you have to fully commit to that first strike because you may lose a second strike capability once they know your intent.

Encountering someone with an edged weapon can be terrifying. They can cause horrible injuries and rapid blood loss. A three inch blade can sever, puncture or lacerate every major artery in the human body. Never underestimate how dangerous a knife can be.

Stay focused on the point of threat (usually the hands), their eyes, waist and feet don’t matter, what matters is the action of their threat delivery. If they have a knife, stick or rock, or are punching at you, watch the hands. If they are kicking you watch the knees and feet. Move as much as possible offline from the direction of attack.

What I choose to protect myself is my business. Being trained, confident and capable in your abilities takes time, practice and commitment. Choose one or two and become an expert. Personally, having this confidence allows me to enjoy my experiences without thinking about bad people. Most people are good and I love interacting with them. If bad crosses my path, I will do whatever it take to avoid it. If it can’t be avoided or they are threatening someone I love or someone more vulnerable, then for me the choice is clear.

Yeah same hear I spent years in training . Sounds like good advice, there's also strength in numbers, backpack may make a good shield for protection. Very temporary of course. So so sad this has happened.

rickb
05-14-2019, 16:08
2-3 deaths per year occur on trail. You are 10x more likely to die from something else, than be murdered.


There have been 7 thru hikers and one 1 long distance section hiker murdered on the AT.

To the best of my knowledges all 8 were healthy and in the prime of their lives.

If you are saying that 70 or 80 thru hikers have perished while on their way to Katahdin or Springer (you did say 10x, right?), that would be shocking indeed.

But you cannot.

Because the number one killer of thru hikers under the age of 55 is not falls, or bears, or heart attacks, or exposure, or falling trees, or snakes, or bees, or exploding stoves, or drowning or even the combination of all these things, but rather other people.

If 7 thru hikers had been killed by bears you can bet your bottom dollar that we would be discussing best practices for keeping yourself from being hurt by them at every turn.

But since we want to live in fairytale land, discussing how to deal with dangerous people will continue to be taboo in polite (I never had a problem!) circles.

Too bad.

rickb
05-14-2019, 16:17
Yeah same hear I spent years in training . Sounds like good advice, there's also strength in numbers, backpack may make a good shield for protection. Very temporary of course. So so sad this has happened.

Until this most recent tragedy, all the murders on the Trail were perpetrated against either a solo hike or a couple.

greenmtnboy
05-14-2019, 17:02
Threatening wackos in the outdoors is so out of what is expected; much of self-defense tries to prepare us for what is so unexpected, as normally people look for the good in others, make allowances for other people's deficiencies. In this case the sicko was given a tremendous amount of misplaced and falsely placed forgiveness. He should have been dealt with by law enforcement or given a sound beating for his evil actions. So many opportunities missed.

I grew up being taught to let stuff go, I never reported abuses to my parents in school. Boy Scouts, even when the Scoutmaster ordered other scouts to throw me off a cliff the day after I confronted when he was getting drunk as usual. That issue should have been reported and taken seriously.

MuddyWaters
05-14-2019, 17:26
There have been 7 thru hikers and one 1 long distance section hiker murdered on the AT.

To the best of my knowledges all 8 were healthy and in the prime of their lives.

If you are saying that 70 or 80 thru hikers have perished while on their way to Katahdin or Springer (you did say 10x, right?), that would be shocking indeed.

But you cannot.

Because the number one killer of thru hikers under the age of 55 is not falls, or bears, or heart attacks, or exposure, or falling trees, or snakes, or bees, or exploding stoves, or drowning or even the combination of all these things, but rather other people.

If 7 thru hikers had been killed by bears you can bet your bottom dollar that we would be discussing best practices for keeping yourself from being hurt by them at every turn.

But since we want to live in fairytale land, discussing how to deal with dangerous people will continue to be taboo in polite (I never had a problem!) circles.

Too bad.
Im not talking just thru hikers
They represent a smaller part of trail users

2.5 deaths per year, over 4 years is 10.
In same time frame we average 1 murder on trail

What part of math dont you understand?

Why are disproportionate % of murders thruhikers?
Beats me. But im looking at a larger data population. There is no reason for thru hikers to be disproportionately targeted, just coincidence.

Falls, hypothermia, lightning, drowning, falling trees, getting lost, all occur .

What is interesting about this happening, is a crazy person succeeded against a group of 4. Because they divided. Only becsuse they divided. if they had stayed together one person might have taken one cut before they subdued him.

Note that I am not pointing out any kind of blame only that people realize this possibly for the future. One-on-one allowed the person with the knife to win.

Thrifty Endurance
05-14-2019, 17:29
Pepper spray is legal in all 14 AT states. NC requires the container be no more than 5 oz. I carry pepper spray on a carabiner on my pack. I also have a body alarm. You have to replace the pepper spray since the potency decreases over time...read instruction first. I would not use Bear spray which is more potent and can get you in legal hot waters in some states. Trust your instinct. If there is a hiker/camper talking to himself/herself and acting erratic, leave the area immediately and walk into town. Send communications through Guthooks or other Apps, FB etc letting others know (1) where the incident took place (2) time of incident (3) full description of the person. Take a picture of person discreetly on smartphone (turn volume down and flash off), IF possible...but safety first. People who act erratic are a danger to themselves and to others. They cannot be reasoned with either. We all like to be helpful as we are all part of the hiking community, but the reality is they don't think they have a problem. There were many troubling signs, "red flags" with the first reports in April and I am not going to speculate or play armchair quarterback. For future reference however, if your "gut" tells you something doesn't feel right...trust it and get out of the situation immediately. Guns are not the solution and NOT legal to carry concealed in all states. I love weapons, but it is relevant to know the laws of each state too. Personally, even knowing self defense is no guarantee. Your best plan of action is "extricating" yourself from the situation. This guy had a tac assault bowie knife with a clipped point, not a machete, which is a broad blade for axing, BUT why the heck was he carrying it? What the heck was he hunting? Hunters use them for skinning and cleaning. What if he had a gun? You cannot outrun a gun. In most instances, even if you had a gun as self defense, your adrenaline will be pumping and heart rate escalating, which impacts mental judgement and site. this is not a good combination.

LazyLightning
05-14-2019, 18:03
The only problem with reporting shady people and instances to social media, or anywhere, is your always going to have some clowns try to beat around the bush and accuse you of "profiling", trying to turn things against you and make you look wrong for saying anything.

of course we shouldn't listen to any of this non sense, I sure don't, but a lot of people do, unfortunately...

BlackCloud
05-14-2019, 18:03
Do consider that if you choose to use pepper spray you will more than likely be exposed to it yourself; as will everyone else in close proximity. Like a firearm, it requires training and an appreciation for the risks. Also recognize that upwards of 10% of the population is immune to it; just like tasers.

But I would love to see someone get hosed with bear spray right in the face. That would be something....

LazyLightning
05-14-2019, 18:30
10% of the population is immune to tasers and pepper spray? …. any source to back that up?

you see people on drugs get tased (on tv) ever once in a while that could stand up and look like there "immune" for about 2-3 seconds, but even the most Methed out people are still going down with the taser eventually.

I've taken several practice shots of bear spray with old cans without coming close to being exposed to it myself. If your wrestling with somebody and try to use pepper spray the outcome wont be to good. It's not the definitive answer to any encounter your going to have but there's a damn good chance of it keeping someone or something at bay, even if it's temporary and allows you to take further action.

SC_Forester
05-14-2019, 18:49
I'm not advocating carrying a gun but if your going to please do it wisely. https://www.nps.gov/grca/learn/management/upload/Firearms-in-IMRparks2-2010.pdf
Also this was a night time attack (at least from what I can tell) and no amount of self defense would have prevented an attack while you're in a sleeping bag in a tent. Prevention is the pest course of action. Be mindful of your surrounding. Keep hiking if you feel unsafe. Will this change my course of action; no. Will I start carrying while backpacking? very unlikely, even though I can legally. The trail is still statistically safer then the towns you visit along the way.

illabelle
05-15-2019, 06:22
Monday morning an article about the Virginia attack was left at my desk by a coworker.
Tuesday he brought a small gun to show me.

At a music lesson Tuesday evening another person brought out a small gun to show me.

I had never considered carrying a gun and don't currently own one, but this incident is making me think about it, not just for the trail.

No question that a weapon of some kind, appropriately and judiciously utilized, could have stopped the perp's actions. I'd much rather we were discussing a death by self-defense.

devoidapop
05-15-2019, 06:42
If hikers start carrying guns in large numbers, I have no doubt that we'll be discussing more deaths on trails.

In a violent world we can still lead non-violent lives.

Please don't give in to fear.

SWODaddy
05-15-2019, 07:35
12 people murdered in 45 yrs
1 every 4 yrs on avg, somewhere

2 people died in last 4 yrs from falling trees. To put that in perspective

2-3 deaths per year occur on trail. You are 10x more likely to die from something else, than be murdered.

But you can focus on the most horrific only if you like

Statistics are kind of meaningless as you watch your partner get stabbed in the chest with a 17" knife at 3am 6miles from the nearest road.

That aside, looking at crimes which literally happen *on* the trail is probably not the best metric for how safe the AT corridor is.

SWODaddy
05-15-2019, 07:40
If hikers start carrying guns in large numbers, I have no doubt that we'll be discussing more deaths on trails.

In a violent world we can still lead non-violent lives.

Please don't give in to fear.

Why? Lawful gun owners are, necessarily, more law-abiding than the population as a whole. If you see a person with a concealed firearm, you can be reasonably sure that they've never committed a felony, never committed a misdemeanor with a possible sentence of more than two years, never committed an act of domestic violence, is not a habitual drug user, has never been involuntarily committed, dishonorably discharged....the list goes on.

SWODaddy
05-15-2019, 07:44
To answer the OP's question...

I think the effectiveness of pepper spray in a situation like we had here is dubious. You're inside a tent and likely to catch as much as the attacker for one. Second, the enraged whacko must be within the danger zone for a knife (~7 yards) for you to use pepper spray. Third, pepper spray will further enrage the whacko, yet not really inhibit him slashing and stabbing away at you.

spfleisig
05-15-2019, 08:14
I'm not advocating carrying a gun but if your going to please do it wisely. https://www.nps.gov/grca/learn/management/upload/Firearms-in-IMRparks2-2010.pdf
Also this was a night time attack (at least from what I can tell) and no amount of self defense would have prevented an attack while you're in a sleeping bag in a tent. Prevention is the pest course of action. Be mindful of your surrounding. Keep hiking if you feel unsafe. Will this change my course of action; no. Will I start carrying while backpacking? very unlikely, even though I can legally. The trail is still statistically safer then the towns you visit along the way.

I was thinking about this last night. Say you were at a shelter where this guy was and he was screaming and yelling and generally making you very uncomfortable. You then decide you want to bounce...but maybe it's dark...maybe raining. How far do you walk? To the next point of civilization? How do you know this guy won't keep walking to and do something if you're still on the trail. It would be very unsettling for me if I saw this guy and decided to move on. Would he come around the next night? Two nights later...three...four...seven. Sleeping would not be very relaxing.

SWODaddy
05-15-2019, 08:47
I was thinking about this last night. Say you were at a shelter where this guy was and he was screaming and yelling and generally making you very uncomfortable. You then decide you want to bounce...but maybe it's dark...maybe raining. How far do you walk? To the next point of civilization? How do you know this guy won't keep walking to and do something if you're still on the trail. It would be very unsettling for me if I saw this guy and decided to move on. Would he come around the next night? Two nights later...three...four...seven. Sleeping would not be very relaxing.

Honestly I think this incident makes a great argument for stealth camping, or at least staying away from shelters. Shelters will always attract the less serious/less prepared/party and drugs types.

MuddyWaters
05-15-2019, 09:09
Statistics are kind of meaningless as you watch your partner get stabbed in the chest with a 17" knife at 3am 6miles from the nearest road.

That aside, looking at crimes which literally happen *on* the trail is probably not the best metric for how safe the AT corridor is.

Always bad to be the 1/1,000,000
Unless its winning the lottery
But someone always will be.
But thats life. Very remote chances of just about anything you can think of is possible.

In this instance, this persons actions reported suggests to me he was intent on eventually hurting people, he just needed to reach that point, and finally did. He was going to hurt ...kill...someone. didnt matter who to him... Eventually.

Life isnt risk free
Driving to trailhead entails risk
Its never totally eliminated, no matter what
Only reduced

You have to accept some risk to do most anything
But most people actually dont.....they pretend there is none. Everytime you step into woods any number of ways to die are possible. This is one.

Look at events logically, not with emotion, is all i suggest.

Risk on AT has not changed due to one nut case. Only perception of it .

If anything, multiple such episodes close together would be astronomically rare....but instead of realizing this, people are now scared.

If you want to carry a gun, by all means do so. I believe law abiding people have the right. But it shouldnt be because of this one event. No other event like this, with clear warning signs to victims has occurred before in trail history. Its not the standard m.o..This deranged nut was on a mission to hurt hikers, up close, with big knife.

This is peoples worst fear...like.things haunted houses are built to provoke....remorseless, senseless, deranged killer in the night, with no motive, or concern of capture, or consequences. Exceedingly rare.

Its a shame all the anecdotal reports of suspects aberrant behavior history werent made known to leo at first arrest . Together they paint a picture that might have convinced a judge to order psych evaluation then. I assume they werent, they werent even here.

TexasBob
05-15-2019, 09:40
If carrying pepper spray makes you feel safer then no harm in carrying it.

stephanD
05-15-2019, 10:32
If carrying pepper spray makes you feel safer then no harm in carrying it.
That's my philosophy. There are a lot of arguments in previous posts why pepper/bear spray is not effective against a crazed person, but SOMETHING is better than NOTHING. Also, at minimum, the canister itself, which is metal made, can be used as a weapon or for protection. I hope i will never have to find out.

devoidapop
05-15-2019, 11:17
If hikers start carrying guns in large numbers, I have no doubt that we'll be discussing more deaths on trails.

In a violent world we can still lead non-violent lives.

Please don't give in to fear.

Why? Lawful gun owners are, necessarily, more law-abiding than the population as a whole. If you see a person with a concealed firearm, you can be reasonably sure that they've never committed a felony, never committed a misdemeanor with a possible sentence of more than two years, never committed an act of domestic violence, is not a habitual drug user, has never been involuntarily committed, dishonorably discharged....the list goes on.

Carry a gun if you want to. Just please don't shoot anyone. Live a peaceful life. It is actually very rewarding.

TNhiker
05-15-2019, 11:19
Why? Lawful gun owners are, necessarily, more law-abiding than the population as a whole.



do you have any facts that support this?

TNhiker
05-15-2019, 11:19
If you see a person with a concealed firearm, you can be reasonably sure that they've never committed a felony, never committed a misdemeanor with a possible sentence of more than two years, never committed an act of domestic violence, is not a habitual drug user, has never been involuntarily committed, dishonorably discharged....the list goes on.




this is not correct....

felons do carry guns...

i see this on a weekly basis, if not almost a daily basis.....

rickb
05-15-2019, 11:52
Always bad to be the 1/1,000,000

About 20,000 thru hikers have completed the entire trail. Perhaps 100,000 have set off from Springer with the intent to do so.

7 Thru hikers never got the chance because the were murdered by a stranger many miles into their hikes.

Hardly a 1 in a million occurrence for members of the thru hiking fraternity.

trailmercury
05-15-2019, 12:00
this is not correct....

felons do carry guns...

i see this on a weekly basis, if not almost a daily basis.....

how are you seeing felons with guns on an almost daily basis?

Feral Bill
05-15-2019, 12:05
how are you seeing felons with guns on an almost daily basis? People are certainly charged for being a felon in possession of a gun very frequently, which leads to the same conclusion.

trailmercury
05-15-2019, 12:09
the poster made it sound like they are actually seeing people face to face everyday who are felons with guns

Alligator
05-15-2019, 12:12
This thread is about self-defense options on trail, not overall statistics. Let's keep it to that topic more strictly.
Thank you.

SawnieRobertson
05-15-2019, 12:34
Deadeye's answer in the last part of his post are dead on. What is between our ears is the first line of defense.

rickb
05-15-2019, 12:38
That being the case, I would add that bear spray is not inherently better than a quality OC spray sold for defense.

If you get something marketed to law enforcement (Like Fox Labs) it may well be more powerful and certainly be spec’d to spray in a directed stream more than the fog that seems to concern some.

Most importantly, they have sizes ranging from that of a Red Bull can something not much bigger than a lipstick. Easy to have at the ready — even in your hand in a packet during an uncomfortable hitch or elsewhere. Or if a dog comes bounding your way.

I am sure the internet is a good resource but gun stores and police supply stores have people plugged into the options, too. Not sure why— but FGNs seem to know this stuff.

The only down side I see is that one might be less inclined to separate themselves from danger if they have an increased sense of their ability to handle a bad situation— says a big guy who was hospitalized by a little wimp some 30 years ago for making exactly that kind poor judgement.

C4web88
05-15-2019, 12:51
The only down side I see is that one might be less inclined to separate themselves from danger if they have an increased sense of their ability to handle a bad situation— says a big guy who was hospitalized by a little wimp some 30 years ago for making exactly that kind poor judgement.

This is a very valid point. If you bring something for self-defense, regardless of what kind (if any), your first course of action should be to remove yourself from the situation ASAP and seek help. You should only be resorting to your self-defense tool if backed into a corner or being pursued to the point where you need to break contact. Good point rickb.

Time Zone
05-15-2019, 15:31
Pepper spray is legal in all 14 AT states. NC requires the container be no more than 5 oz. I carry pepper spray on a carabiner on my pack.

Could you provide a citation for your claim about NC requiring the container be 5 oz or less? I don't know of any bear spray that is sold in that size.

Are you referring to self-defense (against people) pepper spray, as opposed to bear spray? Even if that's the key distinction in the 5 oz limitation, I'd be interested in knowing about that restriction. Most personal pepper sprays are fairly small anyway so I wouldn't find that terribly surprising. However, if faced with a life-threatening situation in NC, I'd probably not hesitate to use an 8 or 10 oz canister of bear spray, or anything else, for that matter. I don't quite understand how you can't defend your life with anything at hand, if attacked.

martinb
05-15-2019, 15:41
Monday morning an article about the Virginia attack was left at my desk by a coworker.
Tuesday he brought a small gun to show me.

At a music lesson Tuesday evening another person brought out a small gun to show me.

I had never considered carrying a gun and don't currently own one, but this incident is making me think about it, not just for the trail.

No question that a weapon of some kind, appropriately and judiciously utilized, could have stopped the perp's actions. I'd much rather we were discussing a death by self-defense.

I used to carry a gun but switched to bear spray after a friend of mine( long time park ranger) explained to me that spray has more uses and would be more effective in a night time situation. At 3 AM it's going to be harder for that bullet hit your target.

RockDoc
05-15-2019, 15:44
Honestly I think this incident makes a great argument for stealth camping, or at least staying away from shelters. Shelters will always attract the less serious/less prepared/party and drugs types.

Yes, that's been my experience, over 50 years hiking the AT... Bad encounters (including a wacko with a machete) were ALL in shelters, none stealth camping which is always peaceful and private if you choose sites carefully.

perdidochas
05-15-2019, 16:49
Awareness and then listening to your gut.

Good read for every person is "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin De Becker.

I agree 100%. I look back at my life, and most dangerous situations I've been in, have been because I ignored my instincts.

perdidochas
05-15-2019, 16:54
Could you provide a citation for your claim about NC requiring the container be 5 oz or less? I don't know of any bear spray that is sold in that size.

Are you referring to self-defense (against people) pepper spray, as opposed to bear spray? Even if that's the key distinction in the 5 oz limitation, I'd be interested in knowing about that restriction. Most personal pepper sprays are fairly small anyway so I wouldn't find that terribly surprising. However, if faced with a life-threatening situation in NC, I'd probably not hesitate to use an 8 or 10 oz canister of bear spray, or anything else, for that matter. I don't quite understand how you can't defend your life with anything at hand, if attacked.

Per this pepper spray sales website: https://www.pepper-spray-store.com/collections/north-carolina-laws

There is an exemption of amount of pepper spray for use against animals. Probably meaning that you can use larger than 5 oz. bear spray, provided it's labeled as such.

perdidochas
05-15-2019, 17:05
do you have any facts that support this?

FL has done studies of concealed carry permit holders. They find they commit crime at a lower rate than the general population, and even a lower rate than certified police officers.

https://wjno.iheart.com/content/2018-05-24-floridas-crime-rate-hits-a-low-as-gun-ownership-hits-record-highs/

perdidochas
05-15-2019, 17:08
Carry a gun if you want to. Just please don't shoot anyone. Live a peaceful life. It is actually very rewarding.

So you are implying that it would be a bad thing if Sanchez had a gun, and had shot Sovereign with it? I live a peaceful life, but there are times that justify the use of violence for the greater good, such as keeping other people from being harmed.

perdidochas
05-15-2019, 17:09
To answer the OP's question...

I think the effectiveness of pepper spray in a situation like we had here is dubious. You're inside a tent and likely to catch as much as the attacker for one. Second, the enraged whacko must be within the danger zone for a knife (~7 yards) for you to use pepper spray. Third, pepper spray will further enrage the whacko, yet not really inhibit him slashing and stabbing away at you.

Well, that wasn't quite the situation. They weren't attacked in the tent, but while trying to talk sense into him.

imscotty
05-15-2019, 17:20
There is some misinformation in this thread on pepper sprays...

If your goal is to protect yourself against humans, Pepper Spray designed for humans is the way to go.
Bear spray is LESS potent than pepper spray designed for human defense. Typically pepper spray for humans is designed to emit a directed stream, bear spray is more of a fog.

Some of the states have limits on who (adult non-felons) can carry pepper spray and how much in ounces. New Jersey is the most problematic allowing only 3/4 of an ounce of paper spray. Also, it is my understanding that you cannot bring pepper spray purchased out of state into New York (and maybe Massachusetts), you must purchase in-state. So, lots of work to do if you want to legally carry through all 14 states.

As with any self defense weapon, if you carry the spray inside your backpack it may be of limited value.

DownYonder
05-15-2019, 18:17
I always conceal carry. A previous poster was correct in that it adds 14oz, but well worth the added weight. I prevented a mugging/assault by pulling my firearm (did not discharge it) several years ago in the parking lot on my business. It CAN happen to you!

martinb
05-15-2019, 18:46
There is some misinformation in this thread on pepper sprays...

If your goal is to protect yourself against humans, Pepper Spray designed for humans is the way to go.
Bear spray is LESS potent than pepper spray designed for human defense. Typically pepper spray for humans is designed to emit a directed stream, bear spray is more of a fog.

I can tell you, from experience, bear spray is enough to incapacitate a human.

imscotty
05-15-2019, 19:36
I can tell you, from experience, bear spray is enough to incapacitate a human.

I do believe you Martin B, but the type intended for humans is smaller, lighter, targeted, and more potent. I see some mace packages online that just weigh one ounce vs. 9 ounces for bear spray.

BlackCloud
05-15-2019, 21:05
More clarification on pepper spray if I may. Pepper spray and bear spray is the same thing. The active ingredient in both is "Capsaicin and related capsaicinoids". It's a matter of degree. Both my COUNTER ASSAULT and UDAP PEPPER POWER bear spray list 2% active ingredients. I have before me two law enforcement agency issued pepper sprays. Galls' MK-3 Defense lists 10% active ingredient and Safariland's MK-6 at 0.7%. Bear spray comes out like RAID yard spray, while pepper spray emits a water gun like stream.

While I do not know where to find the studies showing the ineffectiveness of pepper spray and tasers (I'm no academic), below is a good article that reviews some well documented instances. It is common knowledge in the law enforcement community that some people, for whatever reasons, aren't stopped by these tools. I can tell you through first hand knowledge that this is taught at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center's basic academies.

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2016/04/01/breaking-news/tasers-often-dont-work-review-of-lapd-incidents-finds/

blw2
05-15-2019, 21:47
I can tell you, from experience, bear spray is enough to incapacitate a human.

I happened to have watched a video just a few weeks ago...someone had a friend spray him with wasp spray to evaluate it's self defense value....then with pepper spray...I'm thinking it was bear spray but I'm not sure...
Anyway, based on that...and on other things I've read over the years I'd agree it won't incapacitate a human necessarily...but will serve to break off the confrontation long enough to get away...or maybe to get on the offensive side of things

....and then I would be like someone else posted here a bit ago...would be very very nervous hiking away from that area that night... and for many days and weeks after. I'd be looking over my shoulder and running for sure....

stephanD
05-16-2019, 08:32
More clarification on pepper spray if I may. Pepper spray and bear spray is the same thing. The active ingredient in both is "Capsaicin and related capsaicinoids". It's a matter of degree. Both my COUNTER ASSAULT and UDAP PEPPER POWER bear spray list 2% active ingredients. I have before me two law enforcement agency issued pepper sprays. Galls' MK-3 Defense lists 10% active ingredient and Safariland's MK-6 at 0.7%. Bear spray comes out like RAID yard spray, while pepper spray emits a water gun like stream.

While I do not know where to find the studies showing the ineffectiveness of pepper spray and tasers (I'm no academic), below is a good article that reviews some well documented instances. It is common knowledge in the law enforcement community that some people, for whatever reasons, aren't stopped by these tools. I can tell you through first hand knowledge that this is taught at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center's basic academies.

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2016/04/01/breaking-news/tasers-often-dont-work-review-of-lapd-incidents-finds/
I'm not in the law enforcement business, but i happened to be familiar with that article and there was an NPR program about this topic, and here's what I learned. Tasers are effective about half of the time, that is 50%. So, many law enforcement officers claim that 50% is better than 0%. Of the other 50%, in about one half it is improperly used by the officer, and the other half, it is because of circumstances beyond the control of the officer, such as the perpetrator is too close and the electric shock is not evenly distributed. As for bear/pepper spray, even if some of it gets into the eyes of whatever is menacing you, animal or human, than, again, this is better than nothing at all. That is my belief.

TexasBob
05-16-2019, 11:19
.......... while pepper spray emits a water gun like stream.........

I had an expired pepper spray that I decide to fire off to see how it worked. The spray came out as you describe and shot at least 15 feet. I was surprised at the range but also for the need to have a reasonably good aim to hit the target.

RockDoc
05-16-2019, 11:31
You don't need a 14 oz gun in these hiking situations, generally. You just need something that works. As a well trained, licensed CC myself, I would favor a small .22 magnum for the AT, like the NAA 5 shot revolvers. As Sam Colt said, these make us equal. They also tend to make us all very polite.

Or, you can wave your hands and say "don't hurt me!", and see how that works out.

Thrifty Endurance
05-16-2019, 11:33
Could you provide a citation for your claim about NC requiring the container be 5 oz or less? I don't know of any bear spray that is sold in that size.

Are you referring to self-defense (against people) pepper spray, as opposed to bear spray? Even if that's the key distinction in the 5 oz limitation, I'd be interested in knowing about that restriction. Most personal pepper sprays are fairly small anyway so I wouldn't find that terribly surprising. However, if faced with a life-threatening situation in NC, I'd probably not hesitate to use an 8 or 10 oz canister of bear spray, or anything else, for that matter. I don't quite understand how you can't defend your life with anything at hand, if attacked.

As you are aware, there is difference between BEAR spray and PEPPER spray for commercial use. I carried Bear spray hiking 100 miles of Glacier National Park, but carried pepper spray when I climbed Mt Mitchell and Mt. Craig in North Carolina (NC) and trekked other sections as a solo female hiker. I am trained in wilderness first aid and have spent most of my life in the backcountry, so learned the law of the land from forestry personnel. I would NOT use Bear spray on people because it was not designed for that kind of use. You can check the NC statute, but here is the link to the pepper spray store https://www.pepper-spray-store.com/pages/all-pepper-spray-state-laws. ATStrong

Five Tango
05-16-2019, 11:44
Trying to stay within the terms of the service agreement and on topic to keep this post from being deleted.

My practice is to carry a non-lethal weapon and a lethal weapon with the intent to use the non lethal weapon first and only defend myself when it is abundantly clear that a failure to do so would have disastrous consequences.

HYOH.

BlackCloud
05-16-2019, 13:41
I'm not in the law enforcement business, but i happened to be familiar with that article and there was an NPR program about this topic, and here's what I learned. Tasers are effective about half of the time, that is 50%. So, many law enforcement officers claim that 50% is better than 0%. Of the other 50%, in about one half it is improperly used by the officer, and the other half, it is because of circumstances beyond the control of the officer, such as the perpetrator is too close and the electric shock is not evenly distributed. As for bear/pepper spray, even if some of it gets into the eyes of whatever is menacing you, animal or human, than, again, this is better than nothing at all. That is my belief.

You are absolutely right. But I don't care why something didn't work, whether it be user error, distance, the attacker is on drugs or just plain immune. If being attacked, I only care that I escape! For me, I know that if I get a solid dose I am visually incapacitated for about 40 min, which is about normal. Can't even open my eyes. I've gotten a little residual as well, and was affected for about 20 min but could still see enough to walk. It's a legit option; I just don't like it personally.

Five Tango
05-16-2019, 13:48
You are absolutely right. But I don't care why something didn't work, whether it be user error, distance, the attacker is on drugs or just plain immune. If being attacked, I only care that I escape! For me, I know that if I get a solid dose I am visually incapacitated for about 40 min, which is about normal. Can't even open my eyes. I've gotten a little residual as well, and was affected for about 20 min but could still see enough to walk. It's a legit option; I just don't like it personally.

Are we talking about a dose of mace,pepper spray,bear spray,or taser?Sorry,but I was not sure which you were referencing in your post.

BlackCloud
05-16-2019, 13:53
I had an expired pepper spray that I decide to fire off to see how it worked. The spray came out as you describe and shot at least 15 feet. I was surprised at the range but also for the need to have a reasonably good aim to hit the target.

Yea I don't think it's intended to be shot at a target 15' away! that being said it is totally legit to do so. It has been proven, sadly, that an attacker with a knife can charge and stab you from 21' away faster than you can pull out a gun and shoot the attacker dead. This is another practical exercise in many basic police academies. That is why cops pull out their guns (and not lesser weapons) when encountering a subject with an edged weapon. Ballistic vests (aka bullet proof vests) are not rated to defeat edged weapons.

So everyone should know that if you ever encounter a threatening or unstable person w/ an edged weapon, your first priority is to create distance between yourself and that person. That may sound obvious, but is worth repeating now, as we do not yet know the specifics of how quickly things went down the night of the attack.

BlackCloud
05-16-2019, 13:59
Are we talking about a dose of mace,pepper spray,bear spray,or taser?Sorry,but I was not sure which you were referencing in your post.
Oh sorry; pepper spray or its industry name, OC Spray. Never been tased. Would love to see someone get smoked by bear spray. That would be hysterical.

But my point was that any tool made by man has limitations. Even a gun can jam - though at this point it's got to be really old or really dirty. Whatever tool you choose to carry, it's critical to know everything about how it works and why it might not. In the middle of a fight for your life is no time to read the fine print!

wordstew
05-16-2019, 14:11
Multi-Use....Well at least if you carry pepper spray you can literally use it on your food.... so if you like spicy ramen sounds like your pepper spray will do the trick

BlackCloud
05-16-2019, 14:11
You don't need a 14 oz gun in these hiking situations, generally. You just need something that works. As a well trained, licensed CC myself, I would favor a small .22 magnum for the AT, like the NAA 5 shot revolvers. As Sam Colt said, these make us equal. They also tend to make us all very polite.

Or, you can wave your hands and say "don't hurt me!", and see how that works out.


I'll disagree on the .22. I've seen too many videos of crazed/drugged attackers get shot by 9mm pistols, realize they aren't dead, and get back up and reinitiate their attack. I would not carry any caliber smaller than a .357 as I have never seen a video, or heard of someone jumping back up after being shot with larger calibers such as .357, .44 or .45. I'm not sure about .40. Wasn't Sam Colt making .44s for .45s when he said that?

On the East Coast I carry a lightweight J Frame .357 revolver. Carrying a firearm is a big deal. I do not recommend others do so without real training and the personal confidence in their decision making abilities to do so. And by training I mean to include legal training in the laws of the jurisdiction you are in. Shoot someone and you'll be in for hours of police questioning and an inevitable lawsuit.

BlackCloud
05-16-2019, 14:15
Multi-Use....Well at least if you carry pepper spray you can literally use it on your food.... so if you like spicy ramen sounds like your pepper spray will do the trick
It actually turns sweet after it dries. A park ranger buddy @ Yellowstone told me that every year they get several calls b/c a bear or other animal is licking their tent which they had sprayed w/ bear spray. It's not bug spray people!

RockDoc
05-16-2019, 16:08
I prefer 1911's but also carry .357 at times (bear country). But it's a matter of the best gun is the one you have with you. If you are up against someone with a knife, you will probably win if you have any measily mouse gun because they will run like the wind.

You know the old saying, "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight".

Traveler
05-17-2019, 07:34
Oddly, given the numerous posts of gun recommendations there little mention about CC laws in various States (especially along the AT corridor) and how to go about carrying a weapon legally. Regulations of these weapons differ substantially between States and various Federal/State/private land use regulations. Ignorance is rarely a successful defense in felony charges that involve firearms.

I'm sure no one here would carry a gun illegally so there likely is a wealth of experience in this within the forum, so perhaps some information can be shared on how to carry a firearm legally in the AT states (or other LD trail States) when making recommendations of which gun to tote about would be in order?

John B
05-17-2019, 08:17
Conceal carry laws by state:

https://www.nracarryguard.com/resources/gun-laws-by-state/

wordstew
05-17-2019, 10:26
Even for a LEO it's almost impossible to carry a firearm unimpeded for a thru hike of the entire AT and remain in compliance with all current state and Fed gun laws.

All types of restrictions IE: state local zones you can't carry in or laws that require a specific type of ammo, buildings you are not allowed to enter with a firearm...

I would be curious however to find out if there is a grey area interpretation/exception because as described the AT (or parts of it) is considered some sort of maritime territory.

C4web88
05-17-2019, 10:36
Even for a LEO it's almost impossible to carry a firearm unimpeded for a thru hike of the entire AT and remain in compliance with all current state and Fed gun laws.

All types of restrictions IE: state local zones you can't carry in or laws that require a specific type of ammo, buildings you are not allowed to enter with a firearm...

I would be curious however to find out if there is a grey area interpretation/exception because as described the AT (or parts of it) is considered some sort of maritime territory.

This is incorrect.

"The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA) is a United States federal law, enacted in 2004, that allows two classes of persons—the "qualified law enforcement officer" and the "qualified retired or separated law enforcement officer"—to carry a concealed firearm in any jurisdiction in the United States, regardless of state or local laws, with certain exceptions."

The exceptions (note that the first line says that there is state and local preemptions):

Although LEOSA preempts state and local laws, there are two notable exceptions: "the laws of any State that (1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property" (such as a bars, private clubs, amusement parks, etc.), or "(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park"[1][10][11][12] Additionally, LEOSA does not override the federal Gun-Free School Zone Act (GFSZA) which prohibits carrying a firearm within 1,000 feet of elementary or secondary schools unless the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State.

So essentially you can thru with LEOSA, but you cannot enter federal buildings like visitor centers at national parks. Baxter (which is akin to private property managed by the state) or the ATC HQ while carrying.

C4web88
05-17-2019, 10:52
Oddly, given the numerous posts of gun recommendations there little mention about CC laws in various States (especially along the AT corridor) and how to go about carrying a weapon legally. Regulations of these weapons differ substantially between States and various Federal/State/private land use regulations. Ignorance is rarely a successful defense in felony charges that involve firearms.

I'm sure no one here would carry a gun illegally so there likely is a wealth of experience in this within the forum, so perhaps some information can be shared on how to carry a firearm legally in the AT states (or other LD trail States) when making recommendations of which gun to tote about would be in order?

Quick and dirty, for the average civilian, thru hiking the whole thing while carrying is legally impossible. MD, NY, and NJ are may issue states, meaning they will issue permits at their discretion, which happens to be never. MD and NJ will not issue residents, much less non-residents a carry permit. If you are a business owner or own a residence in NY, you may get a permit, but they will not issue out of state. MA does not extend reciprocity to other states, and neither does CT, you have to fulfill their specific requirements to get a permit; they do, however, issue non-resident permits. WV, ME, NH, and VT are constitutional carry states that will allow you to carry concealed without a permit as long as you meet the requirements to legally own a firearm. VA, PA, NC, TN, and GA all extend pretty generous reciprocity, but will vary depending on what state permit you hold and whether or not it is a resident or non-resident permit. Keep in mind that their are always local, state, and federal restrictions and it is your responsibilty to be aware of them. Call the state police of the state you're visting/hiking in if you're unsure. Consulting a site like nracarryguard (mentioned a couple posts ago) or, my preferred site for questions like these https://www.gunstocarry.com/ccw-reciprocity-map/ is always a good idea.

wordstew
05-17-2019, 12:38
Just to nit-pik my previous post you will see I said "it's almost impossible"

C4web88
05-17-2019, 13:33
Just to nit-pik my previous post you will see I said "it's almost impossible"

True, but I'd consider it far from being close to impossible. I'm very interested in the maritime designations on parts of the trail, is this in some of the states or all? I've never heard of that or the implications....pretty cool stuff.

wordstew
05-17-2019, 14:25
True, but I'd consider it far from being close to impossible. I'm very interested in the maritime designations on parts of the trail, is this in some of the states or all? I've never heard of that or the implications....pretty cool stuff.

Here's what you're looking for

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/7

BlackCloud
05-17-2019, 21:26
I prefer 1911's but also carry .357 at times (bear country). But it's a matter of the best gun is the one you have with you. If you are up against someone with a knife, you will probably win if you have any measily mouse gun because they will run like the wind.

You know the old saying, "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight".
100% agree.

BlackCloud
05-17-2019, 21:36
I think this is a pretty thorough overview of each state's firearm carry laws for travelers: https://www.gunlawguide.com

The inability of a non-law enforcement officer AT through hiker wanting to lawfully carry a firearm in the woods illustrates the utility of federal firearm possession legislation.

Alligator
05-17-2019, 22:10
Please keep the discussion to options and not about debating the strengths and weaknesses of concealed carry laws. Thank you.

4eyedbuzzard
05-18-2019, 11:08
Please keep the discussion to options and not about debating the strengths and weaknesses of concealed carry laws. Thank you.Alligator - If you think the following is not in character with this thread, feel free to remove it. I just think it's somewhat relevant to the responsibilities and consequences of the options being discussed.


I would recommend that anyone who carries a firearm for self defense on the trail read about the Harold Fish case. This is the report of the case and exoneration https://www.law.umich.edu/special/ex...px?caseid=4266 (https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/casedetail.aspx?caseid=4266) , and this is a more detailed report on the case and trial http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15199221/n.../#.XN_1G8hKiUk (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15199221/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/t/trail-evidence/#.XN_1G8hKiUk)

In a nutshell, in 2004 Harold Fish, a retired school teacher was hiking in Arizona. He came across Grant Kuenzli and Kuenzli's dogs at a trailhead/parking area. According to Fish, he fired a warning shot at the ground when Kuenzli's two unrestrained dogs charged at him. Kuenzli, who had a history of some mental and behavioral issues, then ran towards Fish threatening him. Kuenzli was unarmed. Fish shot him in self-defense. The time from the dogs charging to Fish shooting Kuenzli was approximately 10 seconds total. Fish then rendered aid to Kuenzli, flagged down a car at a nearby road (no phone service), and cooperated with police. There were no direct eyewitnesses other than Fish and the dead man who had attacked him. The Sheriff's deputy investigating the incident considered the shooting justified. Th prosecutor, however, disagreed and brought murder charges against Fish. There was conflicting testimony from both sides regarding Kuenzli's past mental health history and behavior, and the trial judge excluded a lot of defense evidence regarding Kuenzli's past. Fish was convicted of 2nd degree murder, spent over three years in prison, and racked up some $700K in legal fees. The conviction was eventually overturned on appeal and he was exonerated 5 years later in 2009, when the appeals court ruled the trial judge had errored in jury instruction and in excluding evidence about Kuenzli's prior behavioral issues. Fish died in 2012, leaving his family still heavily in debt.

I own guns and have a concealed carry permit. But as I posted on page one of this thread, carrying and securing a gun 24/7 over the course of a long hike isn't easy nor convenient. Even if you choose to carry a gun on the trail, if you and those with you can run away from an attack, do so. You only "stand your ground" when other options aren't available. Actually using a gun in self-defense leads to lots of severe consequences - legal, financial, emotional, etc. Whatever you were doing, like hiking, is now over for the foreseeable future. Without any delay, you have a legal duty to report the incident to police and emergency medical services, and render first aid to the person you shot if safe to do so. Use of deadly force standards vary in different states. Police will obviously question you. DO NOT make statements regarding your mental state or perception of the attack nor your level/degree of fear at the time. The ONLY safe thing you can say to police after an incident where you shot someone is, "I was/we were attacked. I shot to stop the attack. I would like to speak to my attorney before further questioning." And the ONLY person you can safely talk to about the incident is your attorney.

And at least some of this holds true for any physical defensive actions you take against an attacker that injures or kills them, even if you fought him/her off with trekking poles, pepper spray, a knife, a stick, or even if you were unarmed. While I believe police and the court system are generally on the side of people protecting themselves, sometimes what we say without being careful can result in adverse legal (and financial) consequences.

SC_Forester
05-18-2019, 11:43
I said this in another thread but I will add to is some here. Avoiding the situation is always the best. Being mentally prepared is the next step. No weapon will be effective if you don't know how to use it and have at least rehearsed in you mind on what you will do.

I agree with 4eyebuzzard the responsibility of securing a gun 24/7 makes it unrealistic for the trail and the legal issues with town visits make it very hard to get things done. A lot of stores will not let you carry it in.

A heavier aluminum trekking pole that is collapsed down would make an effective asp. This would require some training but is something we already carry and has no legal issue when in towns. It is also the thing you have closest in hand.

JNI64
05-18-2019, 11:52
Alligator - If you think the following is not in character with this thread, feel free to remove it. I just think it's somewhat relevant to the responsibilities and consequences of the options being discussed.


I would recommend that anyone who carries a firearm for self defense on the trail read about the Harold Fish case. This is the report of the case and exoneration https://www.law.umich.edu/special/ex...px?caseid=4266 (https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/casedetail.aspx?caseid=4266) , and this is a more detailed report on the case and trial http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15199221/n.../#.XN_1G8hKiUk (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15199221/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/t/trail-evidence/#.XN_1G8hKiUk)

In a nutshell, in 2004 Harold Fish, a retired school teacher was hiking in Arizona. He came across Grant Kuenzli and Kuenzli's dogs at a trailhead/parking area. According to Fish, he fired a warning shot at the ground when Kuenzli's two unrestrained dogs charged at him. Kuenzli, who had a history of some mental and behavioral issues, then ran towards Fish threatening him. Kuenzli was unarmed. Fish shot him in self-defense. The time from the dogs charging to Fish shooting Kuenzli was approximately 10 seconds total. Fish then rendered aid to Kuenzli, flagged down a car at a nearby road (no phone service), and cooperated with police. There were no direct eyewitnesses other than Fish and the dead man who had attacked him. The Sheriff's deputy investigating the incident considered the shooting justified. Th prosecutor, however, disagreed and brought murder charges against Fish. There was conflicting testimony from both sides regarding Kuenzli's past mental health history and behavior, and the trial judge excluded a lot of defense evidence regarding Kuenzli's past. Fish was convicted of 2nd degree murder, spent over three years in prison, and racked up some $700K in legal fees. The conviction was eventually overturned on appeal and he was exonerated 5 years later in 2009, when the appeals court ruled the trial judge had errored in jury instruction and in excluding evidence about Kuenzli's prior behavioral issues. Fish died in 2012, leaving his family still heavily in debt.

I own guns and have a concealed carry permit. But as I posted on page one of this thread, carrying and securing a gun 24/7 over the course of a long hike isn't easy nor convenient. Even if you choose to carry a gun on the trail, if you and those with you can run away from an attack, do so. You only "stand your ground" when other options aren't available. Actually using a gun in self-defense leads to lots of severe consequences - legal, financial, emotional, etc. Whatever you were doing, like hiking, is now over for the foreseeable future. Without any delay, you have a legal duty to report the incident to police and emergency medical services, and render first aid to the person you shot if safe to do so. Use of deadly force standards vary in different states. Police will obviously question you. DO NOT make statements regarding your mental state or perception of the attack nor your level/degree of fear at the time. The ONLY safe thing you can say to police after an incident where you shot someone is, "I was/we were attacked. I shot to stop the attack. I would like to speak to my attorney before further questioning." And the ONLY person you can safely talk to about the incident is your attorney.

And at least some of this holds true for any physical defensive actions you take against an attacker that injures or kills them, even if you fought him/her off with trekking poles, pepper spray, a knife, a stick, or even if you were unarmed. While I believe police and the court system are generally on the side of people protecting themselves, sometimes what we say without being careful can result in adverse legal (and financial) consequences.

How true this is the laws are flawed and twisted at times. I had a instructor one time got out of a bad relationship and his ex sent 3 big guys over to take care of him , well he put 2 of them in the hospital and he got charged for excessive force.... ***......

BlackCloud
05-19-2019, 13:30
A couple of posters have now opined that a collapsed hiking pole is an effective self-defense weapon. I would caution anyone from thinking themselves able to fend off an armed or even unarmed attacker with a lightweight pole. Being struck with an aluminum pole whose overall weight is measured in ounces would have absolutely no effect on a determined attacker. Even a direct, unblocked strike to the head would do nothing more than cause the attacker's eyes to instinctively and momentarily blink. Maybe, in the hands of a strong person, you could break skin or cause a bump to the head.

If you find yourself in a potential hand to hand fight in the woods, you would be far better off shucking your pack and poles and picking up a decent sized rock in each hand.

SC_Forester
05-19-2019, 14:47
A couple of posters have now opined that a collapsed hiking pole is an effective self-defense weapon. I would caution anyone from thinking themselves able to fend off an armed or even unarmed attacker with a lightweight pole. Being struck with an aluminum pole whose overall weight is measured in ounces would have absolutely no effect on a determined attacker. Even a direct, unblocked strike to the head would do nothing more than cause the attacker's eyes to instinctively and momentarily blink. Maybe, in the hands of a strong person, you could break skin or cause a bump to the head.

If you find yourself in a potential hand to hand fight in the woods, you would be far better off shucking your pack and poles and picking up a decent sized rock in each hand.

I will respectfully disagree. My trekking poles are not the utra light weight version, weighting in at 10.7 oz each. My asp ( a pocket carry 12 inch) is 8.9 oz. Not only does the trekking pole out weigh my asp it gives me 10 inches more reach. An asp/batons police carry range 13-20 oz. A police officer striking somebody in the head can be considered using deadly force. A quick search of some lighter carbon fiber poles come in at 8.1 oz each. Not a whole lot lighter than my 12 inch asp but i do not know how well they would hold up to impact. Training is key. With any weapon, including hands or a gun you must know how to us it.

JNI64
05-19-2019, 20:32
I respectfully disagree as well, if you have a good softball size rock and distance but still have to be a good aim. One of the other options with a rock is in hand but you're talking close encounter. I think a good stick or trekking pole is a very good option, not only when collapsed using as a small club and remember soft targets if you can much more affective than just a whack on the head. You can also jab with it. Then you can use your trekking pole extended as spear type weapon as stated before 2 handed bring back following through and really as long as it doesn't it rib or bone its most likely going trough a human body. A good way to practice would be to use cardboard boxes like a water heater box to could draw a body on it and practice spear type attacks cardboard similar to human skin . Or maybe a watermelon hanging from a branch.. you can also use 2 handed a throat attack break wind pipe.

JNI64
05-19-2019, 20:40
And if you got his eyes to momentarily blink then that's your opportunity for your next move, and you certainly can stop an attack momentarily from a deadly weapon with your backpack .. I don't claim to be no master at **** , I just don't wanna see any of my trail brothers or sisters get hurt anymore.......

blw2
05-19-2019, 20:59
A couple of posters have now opined that a collapsed hiking pole is an effective self-defense weapon. I would caution anyone from thinking themselves able to fend off an armed or even unarmed attacker with a lightweight pole. Being struck with an aluminum pole whose overall weight is measured in ounces would have absolutely no effect on a determined attacker. Even a direct, unblocked strike to the head would do nothing more than cause the attacker's eyes to instinctively and momentarily blink. Maybe, in the hands of a strong person, you could break skin or cause a bump to the head.

If you find yourself in a potential hand to hand fight in the woods, you would be far better off shucking your pack and poles and picking up a decent sized rock in each hand.
I'd agree for the average person, a treking pole is better than nothing...but not a likely successful tool.
But for a person practicing Jodo....well let's just say an expert could probably disarm an attacker and take them out pretty quickly.

BlackCloud
05-20-2019, 11:20
Well, I should add that most cops no longer employ their collapsable batons b/c they have no faith in their effectiveness. Criminals just aren't scared of collapsable batons. Most plain clothes detectives don't even carry them anymore. The wooden batons were a whole other story. LAPD, and a few other agencies, still carry wooden batons. When was the last time you saw a video on TV of an officer whacking away at a person w/ a baton?

As for the rocks in hand, I did not mean for tossing but for direct strikes.

C4web88
05-20-2019, 12:39
Well, I should add that most cops no longer employ their collapsable batons b/c they have no faith in their effectiveness. Criminals just aren't scared of collapsable batons. Most plain clothes detectives don't even carry them anymore. The wooden batons were a whole other story. LAPD, and a few other agencies, still carry wooden batons. When was the last time you saw a video on TV of an officer whacking away at a person w/ a baton?

As for the rocks in hand, I did not mean for tossing but for direct strikes.

Yea, a lot of that has to do with how close you have to get for a baton to be effective. Using a baton now a days is usually to force compliance when the arrested individual is already partially subdued. Going toe to toe with a baton or trekking pole against someone larger or also equipped with a lethal weapon is very risky. Make do with what's available though I suppose.

JNI64
05-20-2019, 12:56
I'm trying to put on a self defense seminar for hikers at the atc... in Harper's ferry . This free seminar would include attacks, defense, using your surroundings etc.. my instructor would be on hand and maybe a couple cop friends. We would cover the basics that anybody could utilize.. all questions all demonstrations it would be top notch professional. I made the call, waiting for laurie p... to call me back.. just my way of giving back

JNI64
05-20-2019, 12:58
And if we do this I'm gonna suggest filming it and putting on this site as well, as to help more people with confidence

4eyedbuzzard
05-20-2019, 19:12
Having read through all the self-defense suggestions, if I ever meet up with a psycho killer in the woods, I'm sticking with the Usain Bolt method to start.

rickb
05-21-2019, 09:35
Having read through all the self-defense suggestions, if I ever meet up with a psycho killer in the woods, I'm sticking with the Usain Bolt method to start.
Absolutely.

The problem is when one meets up with psycho who has not turned into a killer yet.

I have no idea (zero, zilch nada) of how everything played out over the weeks that proceeded the most recent murder, but I wonder about that — and how I would have changed my plans (or not) under the circumstances.

Easy to say I would have done everything possible to put many miles between myself and the threat if it kept repeatedly presenting itself (that was the case for some hikers, yes?), but hard to do when you are king of the Trail.

Especially when everyone “knows” that the chance of violence on the AT is infinitesimally small (like when the ATC puts each tragedy into the context of 3 million visitors a year, rather than recognizing the list of victims has now grown to include 7 thru hikers.)

Five Tango
05-21-2019, 16:33
Having read through all the self-defense suggestions, if I ever meet up with a psycho killer in the woods, I'm sticking with the Usain Bolt method to start.oy

Gee,I'm so ignorant I had to Google the Usain Bolt method.I'm so slow that it would mean I would just die exhausted.

JNI64
05-21-2019, 18:38
I too had to Google it, I thought it was some kinda crazy weapon or wild gun from Usain.

4eyedbuzzard
05-22-2019, 06:25
Sorry for the undefined reference to the world's fastest human. But, the reality is that separation and putting/maintaining distance between you and an attacker is probably the most important thing even if you have a weapon of some sort. Moving away (and yeah, running like hell if you can) either removes you from the threat or buys you time to respond. Every second you gain counts in situations like these.

Traveler
05-22-2019, 06:43
Trekking poles may not provide disarming capabilities for the average person, but they can provide just enough distraction to engage the feet that can put distance between someone and a threat surprisingly fast.

BlackCloud
05-22-2019, 17:21
A posted self-defense blog on the ATC site could be very useful and appreciated; if the ATC let's you so post it. Could also post here.

JNI64
05-23-2019, 17:45
And I appreciate that idea, thank you.

Cboon
06-04-2019, 19:36
Pepper spray is small and compact. you could strap it onto your shoulder strap for quick access. I don't carry it but I do have a knife on me

Sarcasm the elf
06-05-2019, 09:13
Instead of a gun, I’ve started carrying condoms on the trail. I realized that they’re equally effective since I’ll never have any possible use for either and at least the condoms are lighter.

Leo L.
06-05-2019, 12:45
Here in EU while hiking I got attacked several times by animals: By dogs, cattle, horses.
In either case a cub or stick was the perfect weapon.
The dogs I knew beforehand and was prepared and had a sturdy cub handy when they attacked (and they meant serious business).
The cattle I could fend off with the hiking sticks.
The incident with the horses I could solve with a sturdy stick that luckily was at hand on site.

Honestly I cannot imagine that any weapon more dangerous/deadly than a stick or cub would be feasable while hiking.

Traveler
06-06-2019, 07:39
Instead of a gun, I’ve started carrying condoms on the trail. I realized that they’re equally effective since I’ll never have any possible use for either and at least the condoms are lighter.

Ahh, the old "rubber fingers" defense! Excellent.

John B
06-06-2019, 07:48
Instead of a gun, I’ve started carrying condoms on the trail. I realized that they’re equally effective since I’ll never have any possible use for either and at least the condoms are lighter.

Ronald Sanchez and his hiking partner -- do you think they would have found a possible use for a pistol?

Sarcasm the elf
06-06-2019, 09:59
Ronald Sanchez and his hiking partner -- do you think they would have found a possible use for a pistol?
You might benefit from reviewing this:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/misleading-vividness.html

John B
06-06-2019, 10:04
You might benefit from reviewing this:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/misleading-vividness.html

Thanks for the link. I will read and think about it.

But do you think that Mr. Sanchez and his partner may have found a good use for a pistol? Or is it easier to avoid a direct question?

Sarcasm the elf
06-06-2019, 10:10
Thanks for the link. I will read and think about it.

But do you think that Mr. Sanchez and his partner may have found a good use for a pistol? Or is it easier to avoid a direct question?

Given that the question is both rhetorical and statistically irrelevant, I don’t think it warrants a response. They also may have found a good use for an armed security detail and attack dogs, does that make bringing an armed security details and attack dogs a rational option for hikers to consider bringing on the A.T.

TNhiker
06-06-2019, 10:34
Given that the question is both rhetorical and statistically irrelevant, I don’t think it warrants a response. They also may have found a good use for an armed security detail and attack dogs, does that make bringing an armed security details and attack dogs a rational option for hikers to consider bringing on the A.T.





i thought John B meant using the pistol to pound tent stakes into the ground......

rickb
06-06-2019, 11:06
I find it statistically relevant that 7 AT thru hikers (yes thru hikers) have been murdered many miles into their quests to reach Katahdin or Springer.

Many people do not see this as statistically relevant.

An ATC spokesman put the latest tragedy into perspective by reminding the public that 3,000,000 people hike on the AT each year, in the wake of the most recent murder. They have made similar comment in response to other murders.

Everyone must come come to their own conclusions, of course.

But can you imagine the safety discussions we would all be having if 7 thru hikers had been killed by black bears over the years?

Tklp
06-06-2019, 11:19
I always carry pepper spray as well as a pocket knife (although the latter is more for practical purposes). In the Great Smokies I left the pepper spray at home, since I had bear mace. Otherwise the pepper spray is coming along, at least on solo hikes. As a woman it just might give me the jump on a much stronger guy...enough to get away. I know incidents are rare, but I'd hate to get caught in a bad situation with nothing to work with. Pepper sprays can be pretty lightweight, I always keep one on my keychain. That started after somebody tried to follow me into my old apartment after a jog.

John B
06-06-2019, 13:02
Given that the question is both rhetorical and statistically irrelevant, I don’t think it warrants a response. They also may have found a good use for an armed security detail and attack dogs, does that make bringing an armed security details and attack dogs a rational option for hikers to consider bringing on the A.T.

I think the question warrants an answer, and I think the answer is that if Mr. Sanchez or his partner were carrying a pistol, then he would not be dead and his partner would not have been knifed.

In my years of hiking, I have never carried a weapon of any type. But recent events are making me rethink my options, and while I have yet to reach a decision, I know that I will not use sarcasm to belittle those who happen to think differently than I do.

rickb
06-06-2019, 13:23
Anyone know if the man in handcuffs pictured here is a thru hiker, and whether or not the police ever caught up with the other hiker involved with this incident on the AT?

https://6abc.com/man-arrested-following-fight-on-appalachian-trail/5332052/

One thing is sure, even if you are carrying legally and have done everything any reasonable person would do, things get expensive real quick once the cuffs come out.

CalebJ
06-06-2019, 13:24
I don't see anyone belittling you. It's also unreasonable to assume that a weapon would have solved the problem at hand. It's entirely possible that it could have made the problem worse, depending on how the situation played out.

John B
06-06-2019, 14:23
I don't see anyone belittling you. It's also unreasonable to assume that a weapon would have solved the problem at hand. It's entirely possible that it could have made the problem worse, depending on how the situation played out.

I didn't say anyone was belittling me, my complaint is with the discussion itself being belittled. Seemingly every time people try to have a serious discussion of weapons and whether to carry or not, it invariably goes to cr** about getting more use from condoms than a gun, rubber fingers, and security dog (har har har).

But in my opinion, Mr Sanchez would be alive and his partner wouldn't be recovering from being knifed if he had a pistol.

If you want an introspective essay about these issues, I would suggest that the Sunday, June 2, NY TIMES feature story in the "Review" is worth reading. Titled "After My Son Was Killed... Then I Became A Gun Owner," by Gregory Gibson. https://nyti.ms/2IaQR3U I would say that it has far greater relevance to this discussion than an earlier suggestion to read a chapter on rhetorical fallacies published on a website used to address holocaust deniers.

Whatever.

TNhiker
06-06-2019, 14:43
But in my opinion, Mr Sanchez would be alive and his partner wouldn't be recovering from being knifed if he had a pistol.




unless you were there on scene-----there is no way to predict what could have or couldnt have happened if he had a gun.....

too many variables...

maybe he did have a gun....

since this attack happened in the middle of the night----maybe he didnt have time to reach for his gun....

to many variables to directly say---"if he had a gun, he would be alive"...


we just dont know that....

Five Tango
06-06-2019, 16:11
Could a logical thinking person conclude that having a weapon of some kind,regardless of what it actually is,would raise their chances of resistance and defense from "no chance" to at least "some chance"?

trailmercury
06-06-2019, 16:28
Could a logical thinking person conclude that having a weapon of some kind,regardless of what it actually is,would raise their chances of resistance and defense from "no chance" to at least "some chance"?

Quite certainly!

perrymk
06-07-2019, 06:10
It seems a hammer is the number 3 weapon of choice among killers. It also fits in the ultralight credo of dual use (can also hammer tent stakes) and likely won't be on any restricted carry list. There are lightweight titanium versions but they probably aren't as effective unless one really needs a less-sparking or non-magnetic version.

Hammer Homicides: Weapon More Devastating in a Man’s Hand (https://www.forensicmag.com/news/2019/06/hammer-homicides-weapon-more-devastating-mans-hand)

Heliotrope
06-07-2019, 06:37
unless you were there on scene-----there is no way to predict what could have or couldnt have happened if he had a gun.....

too many variables...

maybe he did have a gun....

since this attack happened in the middle of the night----maybe he didnt have time to reach for his gun....

to many variables to directly say---"if he had a gun, he would be alive"...


we just dont know that....

Couldn’t agree more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

rickb
06-07-2019, 07:10
A more difficult question to ask is if he would be alive had every Thruhiker taken the murderer’s continued presence on the Trail as seriously as they would have taken of a mountain lion or grizzly bear (on a Trail where they exist) that had been menacing and following hikers for a long period of time.

It is difficult because the true risk the killer presented could only be determined after the fact. It is difficult, because the options to mitigate that risk (like ending one’s hike or at least removing oneself from the area) would have been hard enough for someone out for a week— and much, much harder for a determined thru hiker.

Its especially difficult because thru hikers tell themselves and the world that the risk of such violence on the Trail is to small to even factor into one’s decision making. After all, 3 million people hike the Trail each year (thanks for the reminder, ATC).

Five Tango
06-07-2019, 08:10
Correct me if I'm wrong(and I am sure someone will since this is WB) but I distinctly remember reading on line news reports after the very first incidents that it was a guitar he was carrying and not a machete.As it turns out,some are still referring to his big Crocodile Dundee size knife as a machete,not that it really makes any difference at this point but one would like to expect news reports to be more accurate.

TNhiker
06-07-2019, 10:47
not that it really makes any difference at this point but one would like to expect news reports to be more accurate.




keep in mind----news agencies (such as the one i work for)-----can only go on what we are told....

and police agencies are notorious for not giving out all the correct information.......

CalebJ
06-07-2019, 11:32
Correct me if I'm wrong(and I am sure someone will since this is WB) but I distinctly remember reading on line news reports after the very first incidents that it was a guitar he was carrying and not a machete.As it turns out,some are still referring to his big Crocodile Dundee size knife as a machete,not that it really makes any difference at this point but one would like to expect news reports to be more accurate.
The police department that initially picked him up did confiscate a large knife that was variously referred to as a machete. Apparently there was at some point a guitar as well that caused conflicting reports, but he did have a knife initially and was able to replace it with another one after it was confiscated.

Five Tango
06-07-2019, 12:27
Some of really old kids remember QuikDraw McGraw and El Kabong.Apparently a guitar is quite an effective weapon and it also counts as duel use!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=010aaw1Ajo0

C4web88
06-07-2019, 19:19
You might benefit from reviewing this:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/misleading-vividness.html

"It should be kept in mind that taking into account the possibility of something dramatic or vivid occuring is not always fallacious. For example, a person might decide to never go sky diving because the effects of an accident can be very, very dramatic. If he knows that, statistically, the chances of the accident are happening are very low but he considers even a small risk to be unnaceptable, then he would not be making an error in reasoning."

Good point.

perrymk
06-07-2019, 19:21
This is sometimes said as “it’s not the odds, it’s the stakes”

BlackCloud
06-08-2019, 17:07
My recollection from reading the charging document is that the defendant first threatened to burn victims #1 and #2 and Hikers #1 and #2 alive in their tents. The 4 then decided to pack up and leave. It was during their packing that the defendant returned and launched his fatal attack.

Such would not be a situation where an armed individual would not have time to arm him/herself and be on heightened guard. Merely threatening to burn me alive will get you pepper sprayed. Advancing upon me with a knife or any size after having threatened to burn me alive will get you shot. But that's me.

If one does choose to carry a weapon, whatever it may be, one must be prepared to use it. That includes a discussion now, before the heated moment, of what you are prepared to do.

Randy Watson
06-08-2019, 22:12
How would hikers rate mace or pepper spray as a self-defense option? Bears? Dangerous people? Few people are trained in the martial arts or self-defense. What other options would you recommend? https://youtu.be/yhJvKdk4lts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sme9HSirf4

Stay at home, otherwise just play the odds and you'll be fine. You're more at risk driving to work.

rickb
06-09-2019, 06:34
Stay at home, otherwise just play the odds and you'll be fine. You're more at risk driving to work.

If seven thru hikers were killed by bears on the AT* I would still recommend that people enjoy their hikes without undue fear.

i fully expect that you would too.

But had that been the case, would you look to dismiss all discussion of the risk of bears and how to deal with it because driving to work is more dangerous?



* Seven thru hikers have been murdered by people as the well into their 2000 mile AT journey. Zero thrus hikers have been killed or seriously injured by bears.

Randy Watson
06-11-2019, 07:09
If seven thru hikers were killed by bears on the AT* I would still recommend that people enjoy their hikes without undue fear.

i fully expect that you would too.

But had that been the case, would you look to dismiss all discussion of the risk of bears and how to deal with it because driving to work is more dangerous?



* Seven thru hikers have been murdered by people as the well into their 2000 mile AT journey. Zero thrus hikers have been killed or seriously injured by bears.

Who said I was dismissing all discussion of anything? I just don't see the point in polarizing something that is statistically extremely unlikely. There are always going to be exceptions and tragedy, however that doesn't mean letting it get into your head and living in fear.