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Scrum
06-14-2019, 14:25
NH Fish and Game Press Release:

NH Fish and Game Law Enforcement Division and Operation Game Thief (https://www.facebook.com/NewHampshireOperationGameThief/?__tn__=kCH-R&eid=ARA6jBqtq-JXCP5txt7XMkDruIHC0ybqo4BJ31Qk-FzdRUKjLY04hMOE02UtUsYVAOU-shlNiVo41gNz&hc_ref=ARTyPrQi9T-9N1X2xM5WRm8CrFxVXUARwCtVIdyyOl6xaJm64GnDk4YC2DQBC 6l0k6g&fref=nf&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARAAOST6w41NRqkSzNIGJQy6EFf7VvlM W_yUnK8iPSJRwWCUFY2p-dFgmV2EFQEzsYSL0itjgu1i4wPfGqFjgnbvPamfMI19qI7Rp_l Nv6r_S71i1TXSbZQUPSqZ7rbL4ZE5trJsD_VtScsARGllvWcVG 3os7Puis6VeE1WKl6wCHVg_OkpMaKIkMZ_6hDrouy-CbPxZy-nfM-vMUbadSWJ0cBZAPU9FAaaT-xIQ4LaK_fMMa4eSxTRDJjVpORqpQ7J-EJCY3ooos10D8P_7sJFbDLzJK1sSxqaoNoKUM-MvO79cxYvq-DEAvlV73VY9sD_uGPcM-MCpM1R33QxQaTxCAneZ3r--m2a6JNjBcxLm-Nm-qSOTTRKE3XmmoXZzp5dXfR6swJ7KXIS_-1fuKR67L3HGGka9HhHVkjsjX3NwPyhOvB-UMP7_ondaKJ-BoXS4W6PKHHHp12Wm7PR5Jg0zb7JQN-XFiZ-XdQNKnmCCtB3MTU_Y)
PRESS RELEASE
June 14, 2019
Hiker Dies After Attempting to Ascend Tuckerman Ravine Trail
Sargent’s Purchase – A New Jersey woman died after suffering an unknown medical condition while ascending the Tuckerman Ravine Trail in Sargent’s Purchase on Thursday June 13, 2019.
Officials say that Sandra Lee, 63, of Mount Tabor, NJ was hiking with two other family members while attempting to summit Mount Washington from Pinkham Notch Visitors Center.
A Member of Lee’s hiking group called 911 at approximately 2:25 pm when they got above the junction of Lion Head Trail and Tuckerman Ravine Trail. The call was made due to Lee exhibiting what appeared to be signs and symptoms of hypothermia and could no longer continue to move under her own power.
Fish and Game Conservation Officers responded to the emergency call and requested assistance from NH State Parks staff, based on the summit of Mount Washington. Parks staff started down Tuckerman Trail to give assistance and assess the situation further as Conservation Officers responded.
When Park staff arrived on the scene, they gave warm and dry clothing to all three members of the hiking party. This was necessary due to conditions on the summit being below freezing with a wind-chill of 12 degrees Fahrenheit, 60 mph sustaining winds while rain and dense fog created ice.
After receiving the warm and dry clothing, Lee’s family members were assisted up the trail by one Park staff member, to a summit building to get even warmer. The other Park staff member stayed with Lee with hopes to warm her up, as she was no longer mobile but still alive.
When Conservation Officers arrived at the summit, they hiked down the trail to Lee and quickly carried Lee by “piggy back” approximately .2 miles up the Tuckerman Trail to the junction with the Auto Road. Lee was then driven down the Auto Road to a waiting Gorham Ambulance. Gorham Ambulance transported Lee to Androscoggin Valley Hospital in Berlin for treatment.
Unfortunately, despite all efforts Lee did not survive and was pronounced deceased at the hospital.

Scrum
06-14-2019, 14:39
And a second person had to be evacuated from Mt. Washington last night. https://www.unionleader.com/news/safety/n-j-hiker-dies-following-summit-rescue-hours-later-ohio/article_f5ba7237-44a3-55b5-8d26-cae994268f73.html

MuddyWaters
06-14-2019, 15:28
And a second person had to be evacuated from Mt. Washington last night. https://www.unionleader.com/news/safety/n-j-hiker-dies-following-summit-rescue-hours-later-ohio/article_f5ba7237-44a3-55b5-8d26-cae994268f73.html

What is wrong with people???

Who hikes ahead and leaves a 80 yr old family member behind?

Or, a mother.

Or anyone else they went with.......


He should cut them out of his will...

Slo-go'en
06-14-2019, 16:41
Most people who head up there have no clue. You can tell them not go, but you can't stop them. The remarkable thing is that more people don't die in these hills.

I actually drove by Pinkham Notch yesterday about that time. I do seem to remember there being a rain squall as I was going over the notch. Otherwise it was a nice day in the valley. Which is often the case. Wind with passing rain showers today. I was just thinking this morning that being up above tree line the last few days would not be enjoyable. Summits are currently still in the clouds. More rain Sunday and Tuesday. Just great.

fastfoxengineering
06-14-2019, 21:14
Ive been peakbaggin in the whites the past few weekends and although I keep to myself I have already noticed the inexperienced hikers doing dumb things in dangerous places.

Like someone else said. Its surprising more people dont die in these hills.

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FreeGoldRush
06-14-2019, 21:36
It's been cold up here. I'm about 60 miles south of Mt Washington today headed NOBO. Moose, Smarts and Cube were cold and windy at the peaks, yet quite tolerable down lower. June 13 was a low point for the temps. Ice forming on Mt Washington that day? Crazy. Still hiking with winter gear. Will keep it for a while.

Feral Bill
06-15-2019, 00:10
Before the advent of guided tourist climbing on Everest, Mt. Washington was the most deadly mountain on Earth. Obviously this was largely a proximity thing, but not altogether.

peakbagger
06-15-2019, 05:45
It was nasty day on the summits on thursday when the accident happened. The trails from the east side of the mountain are sheltered from winds and incoming weather. The wind exposure can change in a 50 yards on Lions Head trail and Tuckermans Ravine trail. In both cases the summit building is within sight and many folks wrongly assume that ts easier and quicker to head to the summit in bad conditions and somehow get a ride down. Unfortunately the wind exposure increases exponentially as the trail wraps around the southerly side of the summit.

Do note that the number of fatalities on Mt Washington is hyped, it includes any fatalities within a fairly broad area bounded by 4 major highways. It includes folks dying of heart attacks on the auto road and cog railroad, plane crashes and suicides.

My observation in recent years are there are lot more poorly equipped family groups on the popular trails.

Puddlefish
06-15-2019, 07:57
My daughter hiked the Jewell trail on Monday the 10th. It was one of the first warm days, and she chose Washington over her planned hike (Moriah/Carter maybe? I forget) which had posthole monorail conditions reported in the shade. There was a "preparedness tent" at the base, staffed by volunteers/workers, and they were calling out to certain potential hikers who walked by. The Jewell trail was dry and wonderful. She had carried up cold weather gear and equipment with her anyway.

At the top she was dumbfounded by the number of hikers who were shivering and in line to buy Mt. Washington branded sweatshirts, because they had no additional layers with them from the base. A few of them had hiked up without water. So, either these folks went up early before the preparedness tent was set up, or they just bypassed the tent.

She's training for a marathon, but she hiked fast, in boots as opposed to running. She said there were quite a few families on the trail and older men who seemed to be resentful that they were getting passed, and a few had to be asked firmly to allow her to pass. Overall, she just got the impression that there were a whole lot of "new to hiking" people on Mt. Washington compared to the rest of the NH 48.

Slo-go'en
06-15-2019, 10:37
Overall, she just got the impression that there were a whole lot of "new to hiking" people on Mt. Washington compared to the rest of the NH 48.

That's always been the case, especially with the Jewel trail.

Todays forecast isn't too good either. 40-50 mph wind with gusts up to 80 mph later this afternoon, wind chill in the teens. Chance of showers and thunderstorms.

chknfngrs
06-15-2019, 11:15
Know before you go. I feel awful for their families but ya gotta be smart!!

cmoulder
06-15-2019, 18:00
Sadly, the Whites are underestimated yet again. People just don't believe those big yellow signs at Pinkham.

Scrum
06-16-2019, 14:02
Possible charge against family who left 80 year old behind:
https://www.unionleader.com/news/safety/fish-and-game-weighs-charges-against-family-that-left-/article_d5e1a48e-c0f3-5f8a-950d-ee697e01ebf8.html?fbclid=IwAR3-f0PDfkZ8bIxToWdrrroRa7nsjGmJc99Qay_uBaZysiQgVlTm3d F42OY

One Half
06-16-2019, 14:13
Possible charge against family who left 80 year old behind:
https://www.unionleader.com/news/safety/fish-and-game-weighs-charges-against-family-that-left-/article_d5e1a48e-c0f3-5f8a-950d-ee697e01ebf8.html?fbclid=IwAR3-f0PDfkZ8bIxToWdrrroRa7nsjGmJc99Qay_uBaZysiQgVlTm3d F42OY

GOOD! That would be great. Maybe they should face criminal charges as well. What kind of person leaves a RELATIVE, never mind an 80 YEAR OLD RELATIVE, alone on a hike? Or hell! any hiking partner?! I'm not saying a couple young healthy people need to hike in lockstep but my hiking partners and I would have each waited for the other at the summit, at the very least. And never would we have started descending another route without knowing the other was clear to summit and knew exactly where we would be descending.

Puddlefish
06-16-2019, 14:39
GOOD! That would be great. Maybe they should face criminal charges as well. What kind of person leaves a RELATIVE, never mind an 80 YEAR OLD RELATIVE, alone on a hike? Or hell! any hiking partner?! I'm not saying a couple young healthy people need to hike in lockstep but my hiking partners and I would have each waited for the other at the summit, at the very least. And never would we have started descending another route without knowing the other was clear to summit and knew exactly where we would be descending.

Exactly. Looks like he managed a 3 mile, 3,000 foot ascent, which is fairly impressive, but still, that's along steep solo descent for someone too tired/cold to continue.

fastfoxengineering
06-16-2019, 17:13
I realized the 48 are a lost cause when I'm the one who gets weird looks going up on a busy day.

Like why does that guy have a pack? He has TWO water bottles. Are those soda bottles?What is that stick lashed to his pack? He's wearing SNEAKERS! What's those stupid things covering his socks? Is that a rain jacket in the back of his pack? Doesnt this guy know it's Sunny! Is he filling his water bottle up from a stream! He must of not brought enough. Running shorts! Cargo pants are what mountain men wear...

Same looks. Every time nowadays.

In my mind im processing the copious amounts of Levi Jeans, sticks as trekking poles, and untied work boots with hanes cotton socks. And dont forget the speakers blaring nowadays.

Trail Etiquette is nonexistent. And ive had to swallow my words once or twice. Im not one to spend every day hike preaching trail etiquette and coming off as the know it all either.

People dont move. People dont give right aways. People dont respect the environment.

I had a long talk with a usfs ranger on greenleaf hut the other day too about trail runners in the whites. Doing crazy stuff with no way to take care of themselves if they were to trip on of the millions of rocks on these trails.



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egilbe
06-16-2019, 17:35
I realized the 48 are a lost cause when I'm the one who gets weird looks going up on a busy day.

Like why does that guy have a pack? He has TWO water bottles. Are those soda bottles?What is that stick lashed to his pack? He's wearing SNEAKERS! What's those stupid things covering his socks? Is that a rain jacket in the back of his pack? Doesnt this guy know it's Sunny! Is he filling his water bottle up from a stream! He must of not brought enough. Running shorts! Cargo pants are what mountain men wear...

Same looks. Every time nowadays.

In my mind im processing the copious amounts of Levi Jeans, sticks as trekking poles, and untied work boots with hanes cotton socks. And dont forget the speakers blaring nowadays.

Trail Etiquette is nonexistent. And ive had to swallow my words once or twice. Im not one to spend every day hike preaching trail etiquette and coming off as the know it all either.

People dont move. People dont give right aways. People dont respect the environment.

I had a long talk with a usfs ranger on greenleaf hut the other day too about trail runners in the whites. Doing crazy stuff with no way to take care of themselves if they were to trip on of the millions of rocks on these trails.



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The trail running impresses me and worries me at the same time. I'm amazed at people who can bound like a gazelle over the rocks while I'm plodding along. Safely. Slowly. I do get out of their way though and watch them fly by with a bit of jealously.

My odd story was giving a French Canadian couple directions on how to get to Wildcat Mountain while standing next to the bathrooms at Carter Notch Hut. I'm not sure how he got where he was without seeing the intersection. He was wearing jeans.

fastfoxengineering
06-16-2019, 18:03
The trail running impresses me and worries me at the same time. I'm amazed at people who can bound like a gazelle over the rocks while I'm plodding along. Safely. Slowly. I do get out of their way though and watch them fly by with a bit of jealously.

My odd story was giving a French Canadian couple directions on how to get to Wildcat Mountain while standing next to the bathrooms at Carter Notch Hut. I'm not sure how he got where he was without seeing the intersection. He was wearing jeans.The trail running thing is a sensitive subject right now.

There is nothing wrong with running the trails...

But most bring along near nothing in supplemental gear as they dont want to be weighed down. Understandable. But we are talking about going up above treeline in a place thats not exactly forgiving.

"What do you do if you were to get cold? Well, just get moving. What if you can't move?"

Nothing wrong with packing light for a day trip. But you can at least throw a rain jacket or an emergency bivy in the pack.

But they dont. Invincible.

Imo. Negligent Hiking.

Its so easy to take a tumble in the Whites and get seriously injured. Running these trails is asking for it and without a doubt increasing your odds of an accident.

But there are so many different angles to this its hard to draw a line on when negligent hiking comes into play.

A lot needs to be taken into consideration.

Imo, if SAR has to come get you off a ridge and your found with nothing in terms of preparedness.. then you should be held fully accountable for the SAR costs.

But.. like "ultralight" hiking... some dude with a 5lb kit can be more prepared than someone with 20lbs of gear.

But nothing else other than a running vest and some energy chews? Your not prepared to be up there.

So many sides to this though.

I rarely bring a map in well defined areas of the whites anymore. Its between my ears. I know the trail systems very well here. But some could argue thats negligent.





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T.S.Kobzol
06-16-2019, 19:53
I am surprised I seldom, if at all, see a trail runner rescue


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illabelle
06-16-2019, 20:05
Yesterday we hiked the Hemphill Bald loop in the Smokies, on the edge of the park near Balsam Mountain/Cataloochee area. The bald is a popular destination, with a few benches and a nice rock under a tree in a fenced area overlooking the adjoining community of Maggie Valley. Several people had hiked there from a nearby resort, while others arrived by hiking the 13-mile loop.
While eating our lunch and enjoying the view, along comes this guy jogging and wearing nothing but some skimpy shorts, shoes, a fanny pack, and a bushy beard. He shared that he was doing the loop. I asked what he was doing for water. "Oh, I just camel up before hand. I do 3-hr runs all the time, so I'm used to it." Granted, the Smokies are tame compared to the Whites, but still. I don't know what was in his fanny pack - maybe phone and keys - but it wasn't big enough for a shirt or rain jacket, much less warm clothing.
He told us he'd made an attempt at the SCAR (Smokies Challenge Adventure Run - Fontana to Davenport in 24 hours), so he's no novice. And who am I to judge? Plenty of times I've gone on a familiar​ trail with nothing more than keys and phone.


The trail running thing is a sensitive subject right now.

There is nothing wrong with running the trails...

But most bring along near nothing in supplemental gear as they dont want to be weighed down. Understandable. But we are talking about going up above treeline in a place thats not exactly forgiving.

"What do you do if you were to get cold? Well, just get moving. What if you can't move?"

Nothing wrong with packing light for a day trip. But you can at least throw a rain jacket or an emergency bivy in the pack.

But they dont. Invincible.

Imo. Negligent Hiking.

Its so easy to take a tumble in the Whites and get seriously injured. Running these trails is asking for it and without a doubt increasing your odds of an accident.

But there are so many different angles to this its hard to draw a line on when negligent hiking comes into play.

A lot needs to be taken into consideration.

Imo, if SAR has to come get you off a ridge and your found with nothing in terms of preparedness.. then you should be held fully accountable for the SAR costs.

But.. like "ultralight" hiking... some dude with a 5lb kit can be more prepared than someone with 20lbs of gear.

But nothing else other than a running vest and some energy chews? Your not prepared to be up there.

So many sides to this though.

I rarely bring a map in well defined areas of the whites anymore. Its between my ears. I know the trail systems very well here. But some could argue thats negligent.





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fastfoxengineering
06-16-2019, 20:39
Yesterday we hiked the Hemphill Bald loop in the Smokies, on the edge of the park near Balsam Mountain/Cataloochee area. The bald is a popular destination, with a few benches and a nice rock under a tree in a fenced area overlooking the adjoining community of Maggie Valley. Several people had hiked there from a nearby resort, while others arrived by hiking the 13-mile loop.
While eating our lunch and enjoying the view, along comes this guy jogging and wearing nothing but some skimpy shorts, shoes, a fanny pack, and a bushy beard. He shared that he was doing the loop. I asked what he was doing for water. "Oh, I just camel up before hand. I do 3-hr runs all the time, so I'm used to it." Granted, the Smokies are tame compared to the Whites, but still. I don't know what was in his fanny pack - maybe phone and keys - but it wasn't big enough for a shirt or rain jacket, much less warm clothing.
He told us he'd made an attempt at the SCAR (Smokies Challenge Adventure Run - Fontana to Davenport in 24 hours), so he's no novice. And who am I to judge? Plenty of times I've gone on a familiar​ trail with nothing more than keys and phone.Its tough telling someone what they should or shouldn't have. And the "ten essentials" list is kinda lame.

However... every trailhead in the whites. Well pretty much every one has a pictured diagram on the info boards of what you "should" have for a day hike.

And people just blatantly ignore it.

The thing is.. if you get hurt. Im going to help you. Ive been part of 3 SAR missions..as a bystander hiker. Ive had 3 incidents where I volunteered to help someone injured that I came across while out on a hike myself. Two of these incidents i was the one who found the victim. Guess I bring the bad luck. But..If Im going to be out till 3 am in the white mtns..even in summer..chances are im going to need somethings myself. And im not giving you my rain jacket if I need it. Im not going to get hypothermic myself trying to save you because you didn't bring one. Sorry.

In one of these incidents, it was a cold afternoon. I got the puppy dog eyes from a hiker stuck on the side of the mtn with a busted ankle. I had the pleasure of coming across them first. Knowing how cold it was and them being static. They needed a layer. I offered my rain jacket up. They didnt even hesitate to take it cause they were getting cold. I froze my ass off all night getting that person off the mtn. What would have been a night where I was in bed by 9 turned out to be a 4am party on the mtn.

Hikers help hikers. But because Im not gonna let someone die on the side of a mtn.. i have to put myself at risk. Thats not fair.

If it was raining. I wouldnt have given up my rain jacket. I would figured something else out but...

What do people expect? If something happens everyone is just suppose to come to their rescue?

Odd time we live in.

Now that I reflect on it. I prob bring more stuff on a day hike with me now because of my experiences helping other people who were not prepared themselves.

The whole no jacket thing just blows my mind. Especially in the whites. Where there is typically a pretty strong wind chill...

Common sense?












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shelb
06-16-2019, 23:22
Yes, but as others mentioned... who leaves an 80-something year old father/grandfather behind in these conditions to summit...? That does not make sense!

Slo-go'en
06-17-2019, 00:50
Yes, but as others mentioned... who leaves an 80-something year old father/grandfather behind in these conditions to summit...? That does not make sense!

Most likely it was a "wait here and we'll see if we can find help" situation. If you don't have a cell phone or it doesn't work and your not capable of helping the old guy move yourself, that's about the only option. It's that or you all die. They got caught in a sudden shift in the weather for which they were not prepared for. Classic.

FreeGoldRush
06-17-2019, 06:39
Most likely it was a "wait here and we'll see if we can find help" situation. If you don't have a cell phone or it doesn't work and your not capable of helping the old guy move yourself, that's about the only option. It's that or you all die. They got caught in a sudden shift in the weather for which they were not prepared for. Classic.
They’re talking about criminal charges for the family. Seems like that would just make a bad situation for the family worse. What could their motive be??

https://www.unionleader.com/news/safety/fish-and-game-weighs-charges-against-family-that-left-/article_d5e1a48e-c0f3-5f8a-950d-ee697e01ebf8.html

peakbagger
06-17-2019, 07:19
The volume of hikers heading up Mt Washington on a good day or even a marginal day is something that most hikers not familiar with the area probably would have a rough time wrapping their head around. There is parking for hundreds of cars at Pinkham Notch and on a good day the trail is constant stream of hikers, literally no gaps, a constant line from top to bottom.

The level of preparedness and ability varies significantly. Pinkham Notch and the Base Station road both cut out a lot of a typical approach trail so the trails are quite steep and relatively short but have a lot of elevation gain. Many folks think in horizontal values and dont understand vertical so in their mind the 4.2 miles is an easy hike from Pinkham to the summit is a quick hike as they do not account for the 4300 feet of vertical and very rocky trail with a typical 15 degree temperature drop and 20 to 30 MPH increase in wind speed. Add in frequent afternoon clouds covering the summit which yields a wet drizzle and hypothermia is also a year round contributing issue. There is no one entity responsible for the trailheads and no reliable source of funding to pay for permanent staff to monitor and educate hikers heading up. The WMNF staffs tents with volunteers at some trailheads but all they can is offer to educate hikers and many folks just walk right by. Its actually quite surprising that more folks get into trouble given the volume of hikers and the rapid changes in weather that occur. The authorities publicize the most severe incidents and put up the yellow warning signs at trailheads and at treeline but the folks who should be heeding the advice are the most likely clueless to ignore it. The reality is the local and state economy make survive on tourist dollars so they dont want to scare away tourists. Even if they publicize the danger it tends to attract clueless folks.

Another aspect is the the state Fish and Game officers have had ATV enforcement forced upon them with little increase in resources as the majority of ATV license fees are dedicated to trail acquisition and signage. With the exponential growth of ATV use due to Ride the Wilds https://ridethewilds.nhgrand.com/, the few fish and game officers who are responsible for coordinating rescues are out close to 24/7 dealing with daily sometimes hourly ATV accidents.

Barring some very expensive and aggressive efforts to turn clueless folks around at the trailheads I dont see anything changing. Note the charge for rescue policy does not seem to have made a dent. The minority of folsk who buy the hikers passes are skilled folks who do not get into trouble. I am aware of only one rescue of a pass holder and think it was a well equipped hiker that sprained an ankle.

Traveler
06-17-2019, 07:40
This would certainly be a good example of where NH would be justified in seeking restitution in accordance with the statute. If they don't seek restitution of some measure the precedent would gut the statute to the point no one charged with rescue costs would need to pay.

Without knowing how grandpa came to be alone during the hike, there may not be any charges to file. Did grandpa tell family to keep going and he would follow at a slower pace? Did grandpa tell family he was turning back, insisting they go on to summit and he would meet them at the trailhead? Was there a recent will change that sparked a conversation about an "unfortunate accident"? Breaking hiking etiquette is not criminal, nor is it etched in stone for everyone. Overall, this probably won't amount to criminal charges, especially if grandpa encouraged abandonment somehow and refuses to press charges.

cmoulder
06-17-2019, 08:03
Yes, lots more info is needed before rendering a verdict on this!

However, if the kids were charged I don't think Gramps needs to press charges since the complainant would be county/state/agency whatever.... no?

But in reality it usually comes down to inexperience and panicking and deciding to do the wrong thing. And since tourism represents a huge slice of the local economy they don't want to take draconian steps that would scare off all those folks who trudge up and down the mountain back to their B&Bs and local businesses and restaurants.

TexasBob
06-17-2019, 09:45
.... Breaking hiking etiquette is not criminal, nor is it etched in stone for everyone. Overall, this probably won't amount to criminal charges, especially if grandpa encouraged abandonment somehow and refuses to press charges.

Leaving an 80 year old behind on a mountain in bad weather is negligent no matter how you cut it. It doesn't matter if Gramps says "It's OK, go ahead and leave me behind" anymore than it would be OK for parents to leave a young child alone at the mall because the kid said "It's OK, go ahead I know where the car is and I will meet you there later".

trailmercury
06-17-2019, 10:33
Leaving an 80 year old behind on a mountain in bad weather is negligent no matter how you cut it. It doesn't matter if Gramps says "It's OK, go ahead and leave me behind" anymore than it would be OK for parents to leave a young child alone at the mall because the kid said "It's OK, go ahead I know where the car is and I will meet you there later".

Elder Neglect would be the only thing I can fathom. This is where Adult Protective services may get involved. I didn't read the article.

fastfoxengineering
06-17-2019, 10:38
Mt Washington is a weird place.

You would think that the probability of an accident increases since the number if hikers is greater sure.

But as someone pointed out. There are literally lines of people in a single file line going up Tuckerman's on a good day.

To be left alone to perish is mind boggling to me.

There's so many people.

Everyone says the AT is crowded and they cant wait to get to the whites. In all honesty the AT thru NH is probably one if of the most crowded areas on the trail in a good day.

The presedentials? Franconia Ridge.

Its stop and go traffic regularly.

NOONE should ever be stranded on one of those mtns.

Unless intentional...

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Feral Bill
06-17-2019, 10:44
They’re talking about criminal charges for the family. Seems like that would just make a bad situation for the family worse. What could their motive be??

https://www.unionleader.com/news/safety/fish-and-game-weighs-charges-against-family-that-left-/article_d5e1a48e-c0f3-5f8a-950d-ee697e01ebf8.html Holding people accountable for criminal acts often makes bad situations worse. What would you do?

peakbagger
06-17-2019, 10:48
In a situation like this I think NHF&G tries to file charges for the publicity as much as the actually wishing the charges are fully prosecuted. Unless its a totally dysfunctional family I expect they figured out pretty quickly that they screwed up big time.

Note that the first symptom of hypothermia is poor thinking, given the weather that day, the group may already have been partially hypothermic and therefore they were not thinking clearly to allow this to happen.

I happen to know folks in their eighties that value their independence enough that they would insist on being able to make their own decisions to the point that even if its bad one they want the right to make it rather than having someone else take those rights away.

egilbe
06-17-2019, 13:18
Turns out the old man sent his 18 and 14 year old grandsons ahead without him. We know what poor decision makers teenagers are and probably not willing to argue with Grandpa.

rickb
06-17-2019, 14:32
Turns out the old man sent his 18 and 14 year old grandsons ahead without him. We know what poor decision makers teenagers are and probably not willing to argue with Grandpa.

Interesting situation.

Send the 14 year old alone to get help? Not good.

Leave the child behind with grandpa, exposing the minor to greater risk? Not good.

Stay and wait for help that may not come? Not good.

Putting aside how the three got into a very bad situation to begin with, I am not sure that leaving Grandpa behind was the wrong decision.

I have note read up on the details, so I could be missing something. When they left him, did they go directly to reach help?

egilbe
06-17-2019, 18:11
Nope, they summited and went down a different trail expecting Gramps to be waiting for them. The only right answer was all three of them to turn around.

Puddlefish
06-17-2019, 20:17
Nope, they summited and went down a different trail expecting Gramps to be waiting for them. The only right answer was all three of them to turn around.
Given the new information, a poor decision was made, possibly a hypothermia decision where Gramps wasn't thinking clearly due to early symptoms. The initial mistake of course was attempting Washington without the proper gear and advance planning/fallback decisions. So maybe Gramps didn't even require the hypothermia to start making bad decisions. Not a good situation when the one with the age/trail experience is making the poor decisions, and the other two lack the age/trail experience to realize it was a bad decision.

Clearly, we're all guessing, and law enforcement will have much more information that we do, and can make the best decision for everyone. I suspect they'll get it right.

kestral
06-17-2019, 20:54
Nope, they summited and went down a different trail expecting Gramps to be waiting for them. The only right answer was all three of them to turn around.

When I first read the article I thought is was a misprint that the 2 who summited went down a different trail. This is incomprehensible to me. Even young hikers. Maybe this was a first trip? Agreed, the only sensible solution was for all three to return when one couldn’t make it.

Maybe those teenagers got drilled with “respect your elders and “no back talk” a few too many times so that they were wired to obey grandpa’s directions. If grandpa was the experienced hiker perhaps they figured he knew best. But if grandpa was an experienced hiker, all would have been better prepared, equipped, clothed and understood the importance of staying together and recognized signs of hypothermia.

If there was malicious intent of course charges should be filed. How do you distinguish between malice and ignorance though. We used to call this type of situation a cluster *****. I’m glad everyone made it home alive. Thank you a thousand times to the rescuers. I hope and plan to never need them, but I’m grateful they are there.

Slo-go'en
06-17-2019, 21:44
It's possible that the kids took off before the old man was in actual trouble. That could have happened a little later when the weather suddenly changed.

The white mountain trail maze could have been the problem. The kids could have started down towards lions head, but missed the junction and end up going down Boot Spur, which is about the only other way down. It's also a popular way to go.

We don't know the timing of events, which is important. All we know is he was found at about 1:30 am, in the alpine garden area. We don't know when he got there.

It's another one of these we'll never know stories. Even those involved are probably a little fuzzy on the details.

Scrum
06-18-2019, 07:13
It's possible that the kids took off before the old man was in actual trouble. That could have happened a little later when the weather suddenly changed.

The white mountain trail maze could have been the problem. The kids could have started down towards lions head, but missed the junction and end up going down Boot Spur, which is about the only other way down. It's also a popular way to go.

We don't know the timing of events, which is important. All we know is he was found at about 1:30 am, in the alpine garden area. We don't know when he got there.

It's another one of these we'll never know stories. Even those involved are probably a little fuzzy on the details.
Slo-go'en - Thanks for your comments. I bet your are right about going down boot Spur.

Just to clarify, the party split "shortly after starting the hike" according to the Fish and Game press release. So the 80 year old must have hike up Lion's Head himself. Impressive, but to me this also indicates that he bears responsibility for not turning around when he hit the 60 mph winds above Lion' Head.

Also 1:30 am is when the carry out started. He was found by the AMC Hermit Lake Shelter caretaker much earlier, who along with 2 Conservation officers that were conducting the initial search administered first aid. Those guys saved his life. If they did not have the training and gear to warm him up, it would have been the second fatality on Washington on June 13.

Traveler
06-18-2019, 07:54
Given the new information regarding how the party was separated (presuming it is accurate) I don't see criminal intent that would warrant a criminal charge for the children.

Since it was apparently Grandpa who told the children to go ahead, there is the possibility of child endangerment charges being considered for Grandpa (especially if the 18 year old wasn't quite 18). Prosecution of an 80 year old with questionable mental acuity would probably not be high on the State's list of "Things We Did This Summer" and the costs will be waived, which would present its own precedence issues for the next similar circumstance.

TexasBob
06-18-2019, 09:38
Probably an interesting family discussion ensued when those teenagers got home. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.

peakbagger
06-18-2019, 10:12
FYI, NH charges for actual costs incurred for rescues as long as they determine negligence. The negligent determination is a work in progress but having the right gear is on the list. They publish a gear list for all seasons (which tends to be overkill). If they do not have the gear, its pretty well an instant bill. Some of the thing seem arbitrary. They have cited one winter hiker with carrying "inadequate food" in addition to other issues as a reason to bill.

The bill is waived if the hiker has hunting, fishing or ATV registrations or a voluntary hike safe card. Here is the statute. http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/xviii/206/206-26-bb.htm

In this case the family has said they will pay the costs so it will most likely not be contested. In most cases the bill gets paid. Generally its only contested when the fees get high like when a helicopter gets called in. Most of the S&R folks are volunteers, they do not get any of the fee. It mostly goes to NH F&G overtime and expenses (like helicopters). Note if the volunteers are qualified members of a rescue organization that is called up to assist they are eligible to get state workman's compensation if they are injured.

The scary part is NH F&G staff are getting old and ready to retire, they have an ongoing significant loss of expertise and are having a tough time recruiting as the pay is low and they are on call 24/7. If they are not there to answer the call it would have been two deaths.

T.S.Kobzol
06-18-2019, 11:00
well at least we know what the remedy is: Increase their pay

Easy to say right? :-)





FYI, NH charges for actual costs incurred for rescues as long as they determine negligence. The negligent determination is a work in progress but having the right gear is on the list. They publish a gear list for all seasons (which tends to be overkill). If they do not have the gear, its pretty well an instant bill. Some of the thing seem arbitrary. They have cited one winter hiker with carrying "inadequate food" in addition to other issues as a reason to bill.

The bill is waived if the hiker has hunting, fishing or ATV registrations or a voluntary hike safe card. Here is the statute. http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/xviii/206/206-26-bb.htm

In this case the family has said they will pay the costs so it will most likely not be contested. In most cases the bill gets paid. Generally its only contested when the fees get high like when a helicopter gets called in. Most of the S&R folks are volunteers, they do not get any of the fee. It mostly goes to NH F&G overtime and expenses (like helicopters). Note if the volunteers are qualified members of a rescue organization that is called up to assist they are eligible to get state workman's compensation if they are injured.

The scary part is NH F&G staff are getting old and ready to retire, they have an ongoing significant loss of expertise and are having a tough time recruiting as the pay is low and they are on call 24/7. If they are not there to answer the call it would have been two deaths.

Ben795
06-18-2019, 12:51
My first WM climb was in 1975, when a friend and I got a couple cheap orange Jansport ext frame packs, and with heavy car camping sleeping bags, extra jeans, and a bag of weed, we went up a steep trail to Whaleback. Not knowing anything about backpacking. As we were nearing tree line about quite late in the day, we met some “ Hippy AMC Croo” with the old oak frame canvas pack boards, ( probably still on someone’s back today) They warned us that camping above treeline is foolish and dangerous. They went so far as to call us stupid.. ( which was true) We laughed at them, and that night as we did camp above tree line, we near froze, our canteen water did.. and had a hard time coming down Flumeslide all dehydrated and tired, legs like rubber, from little sleep and no water. We learned a hard lesson. After many years of spending time on the trail, I still learn what I need, and what I never really needed to carry. I was young and ignorant, and see a lot of other folks on the trails who seem likewise. No gear, water, clothing, in Levi’s and Chuck Taylors. I try to “diplomatically” spread some trail knowledge. I was too arrogant to listen being preached to at 18 years old, so I won’t do that to a young novice. Helpful hints is what I try and pass on. A rookie on the trails needs to be welcomed first, then educated with good spirit, and good intentions. Nobody wants to be called an idiot, even if they seem to be, just saying.

trailmercury
06-18-2019, 14:35
A rookie on the trails needs to be welcomed first, then educated with good spirit, and good intentions

This reminded me of Jack Tarlin, RIP

Ben795
06-18-2019, 14:43
Removed my slapback reply to Wi. Ultralighter. I was just being sarcastic. All respect to those who Thru- hike. Many start, not so many finish. Lucky to live in the Northeast, I frequent the northern terminus. Between Katahdin and the Knife Edge, and Mt. Washington, we have a lot of sections of the AT that are really great. Enjoying the posts.. thanks.

Don H
06-18-2019, 15:08
Who Hell is Jack Tarlin? And why is he so dead? Maybe he didn’t get the right education with the right intentions.. just saying. I’ve been on the Rockpile in all four seasons, in the last 40 plus years, it’s a beast. A lot of newbies do it, most make it, and most get home safe. I don’t know what your experience is Cheesehead, but if you come here...my respectful advice is, don’t go up a TOO light! It’s not Sugarbush Hill.

Jack Tarlin, AKA Baltimore Jack. Do some research.

Ben795
06-18-2019, 15:24
Will do. I just thought it was some sarcastic reply to my post, so I felt smackback was due.. I’ll look up a Jack now. My apologies to The ultralighter from Wi. I just read up on Baltimore Jack, and know now that he was a decent, and helpful guy on the trail. ( which was the point I was attempting) Impressive he did the Thru eight times. Always wanted to, but family and career kept my to weekends and vacation weeks only. Hike on friends.. please dismiss my cynicism, as you can see, I’m an old hiking dude, just new to this forum.

Paleolith54
06-18-2019, 20:31
What is wrong with people???

Who hikes ahead and leaves a 80 yr old family member behind?

Or, a mother.

Or anyone else they went with.......


He should cut them out of his will...

About 30 years ago, in the dead of winter, my wife and I came across this same basic situation on the AT in the Smokies east of Newfound Gap. The family had just left this old guy behind, and he had gotten himself totally confused. We had to abandon our day hike to Charlies Bunion and walk him back to Newfound Gap. Oddly enough, I don't recall ever seeing the family there, maybe we passed him off to a Ranger; I really just don't remember.

But it's not just an artifact of what seems to be our generally-declining level of common sense; this was a long time ago.

rickb
06-19-2019, 10:30
The bill is waived if the hiker has hunting, fishing or ATV registrations or a voluntary hike safe card. Here is the statute. http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/xviii/206/206-26-bb.htm
.

As you know, the statute goes on to say that the bill (capped at $10k, I think) is not waived if the hikers behave recklessly.

Since the hikers breached their duty (as articulated buy the Hike Safe program) to stick together, wouldn’t the state consider that “reckless”?

Specifics and details matter, of course. I would not to presume that negligence or recklessness was actually the case without knowing much more than what’s in the initial reports. So just talking “theoretically”.

peakbagger
06-19-2019, 11:58
That whole "reckless" issue is even more of work in progress. To a couch potato watching the dribble off of cable news, stepping out of car at a trailhead is reckless. There have been times where Fish And Game in certain extreme winter conditions have stated that anyone going out in predicted conditions is inherently reckless and several years ago there was a statement that anyone going off trail in the winter was reckless. IMHO the policy has been and is arbitrary and in the past was on occasion politically motivated. My theory is if someone buys a hike safe card, its highly doubtful that F&G is going to try to bill as it would be negative publicity for the program.

Ben795
06-19-2019, 20:08
I do a lot of weekend backpacking hikes in the White and Baxter, As I’m only 3 hours from the Whites and about 5 from Baxter. My wife loves to day hike, but prefers high thread count sleeping accommodations. She says she worries about me hiking and climbing alone, which I like to do often, but I do stay on our very well blazed trails, and know that should a mishap ( ankle sprain or slip and fall) it’s a good possibility that someone will be by, at least on our heavily traveled trails. I always have the gear needed to hunker down and stay hydrated, warm and dry for a night, if need be. Can’t remember any time I had been on a trail in the Whites, Baxter, or Acadia, where I didn’t see another hiker for more than a day. Stay on the trails, have gear for emergency, and chances are you’ll be OK. Anything can happen, but being prepared for the “ just in case” is always your best bet. On 2/15/2015, a pretty experienced hiker, Kate Matrosova, went solo to do a Winter Presidential Traverse, forecast was BAD..they found her frozen to death near Madison Hut, Star Lake. Point being, even experienced climbers and hikers need to heed warnings. As Viesturs said..” getting to the top is optional, getting back down is mandatory”

Slo-go'en
06-19-2019, 20:39
Well, you might notice that the majority of rescues involve seniors 60+. So there is some reason for concern as we get older and still think we're 30.

Ben795
06-19-2019, 20:52
Well, you might notice that the majority of rescues involve seniors 60+. So there is some reason for concern as we get older and still think we're 30.
Very true. Being 62, although pretty active and in good shape, I have realized my limitations. I don’t bound from rock to rock on my descents like I did in my earlier years. I have to step aside a little more for passing climbers, ( as the oldsters had to for me!) I’m not in a hurry like I was when younger anyways. I still get there, just a bit later now.. I think we all need to know our abilities, regardless of age. I have met thruhikers and mountain climbers, older than me, who can probably smoke a lot of 30 year old self anointed superstars. You are a N.H. Guy, you’ll appreciate this true tale. On a FOT48 a couple years ago, I was on Ammonoosuc Ravine up to Monroe, about half way up, I stepped aside for a 20 something female “runner” in a bikini bottom, sport bra, and sneakers. Not even a water bottle. And this girl was knock out fine! Before I got to tree line, she was bouncing back down with a smile on her face, and not even a bead of sweat.. damn. She was killer. Impressive.