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View Full Version : Luxury slackpacking is ridiculous!



longshank
03-04-2006, 14:23
There is a new service being offered in '07, perhaps you may have heard of it..."Foot Travel", an outfitter based in N.C., offers (for a low price of only $10,120) full gear-transport and other logistical services at key points on the trail. They do all your cooking and cleaning, all you need is a daypack. Let's hear it for the commercialization of everything. Check it out at www.bighike.com (http://www.bighike.com)

hiker5
03-04-2006, 14:35
hyoh and let others do the same

Topcat
03-04-2006, 14:38
I agree, hyoh. Plenty of people do guided hikes of the Haute trail in the Alps (well, at least Hut to Hut) or the Inca trail in Peru. It wouldnt be for me but if they have fun doing it guided with someone else cooking and arranging everything, more power to them. Besides, think of the Yogi potential with so many rich people on the trail out there......;-)

longshank
03-04-2006, 14:42
How long till the trail becomes a big road?

DavidNH
03-04-2006, 14:55
well..ok mr and misses Ritzy might be able to do the AT with a service like this, carrying only a day pack and having everything but the walking done for them. But they will not have backpacked the AT. They won't have the experience or ability to go on to bigger trails (like the PCT). Their experience will be very different.

personally, I would not have the same amount of respect for a person who completes the AT with van support and someone else providing all the food and doing all the cooking and clean up and all the logistical prep, as I would have for someone who actually backpacked the AT carrying everything he needed on his back and doing all the work himself.

I hear you guys about hiking your own hike.. but to me..this is just over the top. It changes the experience. It reduces (in my view) the rewards that one would have in completing the trail. I am going on the trail because I love being in the woods and in the mountains. Bragging rights is purely secondary.

DavidNH

hiker5
03-04-2006, 15:03
I hear you guys about hiking your own hike.. but to me..this is just over the top. It changes the experience. It reduces (in my view) the rewards that one would have in completing the trail. I am going on the trail because I love being in the woods and in the mountains. Bragging rights is purely secondary.

DavidNH

And that is why you should hikie as you see fit. I guess if part of the reason someone was hiking was for "bragging rights" they should consider how others view their hike, but if not, just enjoy the trip.

Smile
03-04-2006, 15:07
Perhaps folks tunes will change their thinking that this is AOK after the new movie comes out ("Walk in the Woods") ready for a huge influx of hikers over the next four years or so? This would just be the beginning of "companies" like this that will start up......perhaps one may not 'get' the idea of how to treat the environment with care when you are not immersed in a 'self-propelled' hike.

Rifleman
03-04-2006, 15:28
This is a bit over the top to my taste. Essentially it would create two types of AT hikers--luxury hikers and authentic hikers.
It would create the opportunity for individuals who have the money and political influence to become educated on and consequently supportive of
the need for woods (wilderness?) in our society. It will create jobs.
In general, something such as this should be used to create more Appalachian
Trail (and other trails) enthusiasts. It can and should be used towards a
positive end.:-?
R.

Topcat
03-04-2006, 15:32
You know, in 1977 I loved Jimmy Buffett. I went to see him at an outdoor show where it was half empty. I felt like he was my guy and i had him all to myself in a small little club of fans. Now i cant stand to go see him because it is so crowded with with drunks and partiers. The music is the same, but seeing Buffett isnt for me.

The trail is the same way, we want to love it but lets limit the experience to people who will love it just the way that we do. We all have these artificial limits on it. From people describing true thru hikers as those who dont even stay in a hostel to people who spend 50 plus zero days along the trail. I remember the long road hikes on the trail in the 70's and dont miss them but i am sure others say the trail is not the same since they moved the start to Springer.

Hike your own hike means just that. I am sure that you dont want anyone being a critic of your hike so why be a critic of someone elses, what does it prove? IF it really bothers you, dodge the popular areas on weekends and it will take care of itself.

lobster
03-04-2006, 15:32
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Bassline
03-04-2006, 15:37
Who cares, let them have their hike. I dont think I would enjoy that, but I can see the appeal.

Tin Man
03-04-2006, 15:44
A mountain out of a molehill!!!

Exactly. We have thru-hikers, blue-blazers, yellow-blazers, speed hikers, day hikers, section hikers, ultralight hikers, gun-totting hikers, hikers with cameras, tree hugging hikers, conservative hikers, trail maintainers, trail angels, hikers who wear kilts, old hikers, young hikers, scout hikers, hikers with dogs, and, yes, hikers who sleep in hammocks. The list goes on and on - we have all kinds of hikers. The luxury hiker is just as welcome as the rest as long as they don't come crashing down the trail in their Hummers or telling anyone they are doing it wrong.

:welcome

generoll
03-04-2006, 16:04
the more hikers on the AT the wider the support. if the crowds bother you, move over to the BMT.

sarbar
03-04-2006, 16:25
I really wouldn't worry..why? Well, one thing is not many will spend that kind of money, and even if they do, I doubt you would notice them-since you aren't going to see a massive group of them all at once.
Here in WA state you used to be able to do a guided tour of the Wonderland Trail with REI trips...where they cooked for you, and guided you.
Yet only a few did that trip every year-most chose to do it themselves.
I can see the benefit of a guided luxury trip for those that can hike, but cannot carry heavy weight. That have income over age and health.

And hey, if I had an extra $11,000 hanging around....and my guide was some hot 25 year old guy..sure! lol.....

c.coyle
03-04-2006, 16:28
... personally, I would not have the same amount of respect for a person who completes the AT with van support and someone else providing all the food and doing all the cooking and clean up and all the logistical prep ...

Do you hike to gain the respect of others? Why do you assume these people would?

starvingmusician
03-04-2006, 17:51
Heck, I think cooking and cleaning and the logistical prep is half the fun of the trip... but if I could afford to pay someone to schlep my gear, I'd half a notion to take them up on it (mind you, I said half a *notion*). Would save wear and tear on my artificial knees.

soad
03-04-2006, 18:12
And hey, if I had an extra $11,000 hanging around....and my guide was some hot 25 year old guy..sure! lol.....

You may be onto something, oh couse I would need a hot 25 year old hiker babe who is a masseuse...crap, now we're taking more than $11,000.

nattyd123
03-04-2006, 18:22
Me: 25, hot, in need of $10k. PM me.

lobshot
03-04-2006, 18:22
The really rich folks hire someone to hike it for them.

Klezmorim
03-04-2006, 18:29
Ya know, $10K and change really isn't such a bad deal, when you consider what you get!

My podiatrist is talking about surgery to repair the damage from years of stubbing my big toe on rocky trails. He may tell me to either stop hiking or not carry a heavy pack. Bighike.com's service may be the only way I could do a thru....

papa john
03-04-2006, 19:16
I hiked along with Pittsburg's group in 2000. Not as a part of the group but just at the same time and place. The experience had no negative effects on me or my experience. Why would I or anyone else care how someone is hiking the trail? The people in his group were all a joy to hike with and a good time was had by all.

If a supported hike is the only way for someone to be able to hike the trail then who are we to say no?

MYOB.

Klezmorim
03-04-2006, 19:19
Me: 25, hot, in need of $10k. PM me.
Sounds high-maintenance to me, fellas! :rolleyes:

Peaks
03-04-2006, 19:24
Hey, everyone hikes the trail differently. Supported day hikers is nothing new. But for the price, I can't believe that it will have a significant number of takers. Anyway, the number of completions has been declining for several years. I wouldn't worry about this new venture.

betic4lyf
03-04-2006, 19:33
people hike to enjoy themselves. if this lets them have fun all the better. the more people that form a connection with the AT, the more people who will support it and lobby for it, and so on and so forth.

JJB
03-04-2006, 19:55
I don’t think it would be for me either, but I believe in the hike your own hike mantra.
But I was thinking as in vein of trout fishing. If there wasn’t all these high end sports out there buying my flys and $500 rods and giving scads of dough to Trout Unlimited, there wouldn’t be any trout fishing in lot of places that we take for granted. If just a few of these people do get “it” from the exposure to the trail. It could be a big plus to the “cause”. Not that I’m looking to be anywhere near these nouveau riche “hikers” but just a thought. Peace. J.J.B.

jmaclennan
03-04-2006, 20:47
a similar service was discussed on this forum not long ago. i say go for it. chances are there won't be any extra impact on the trail and other hikers. might allow some to thru-hike who wouldn't otherwise be able (diversity rocks!). plus, as others have said, it could increase support for the trail. all good things.

SGTdirtman
03-04-2006, 20:57
20 years ago people would probably call you a slackpacking gizmo freak for the "fancy high tech" equiptment you carry... and in the not so distant future that stuff you carry will be considered stupid, heavy and useless by most hikers.


I dont care what kinda high dollar equiptment you use, I have some fancy gadgets but for the most part my equiptment is outdated military gear. I like it, I dont need anything better. You guys make fun of people for carrying caveman gear one day, and the next your complaining about people being too high tech.


SHUT UP AND HIKE! :D :banana

Fiddleback
03-04-2006, 21:18
Didn't we use to call this, "safari?" How far away is this concept from, e.g., the Everest climbs?

From an individual responsibility point of view, i.e., personal economics, finance, and budgeting, I try never to criticize what one's money is spent on, but on how. If you and yours are taken care of, than disposable income is there to be...ummm, "disposed." Of course, that attitude allows consumers to be led by marketing and we end up 10mpg vehicles, $200 blue jeans, and the sorry state of rock and roll.:banana

FB

Sly
03-04-2006, 21:21
Luxury slackpacking is ridiculous!

Is it anymore ridiculous than *backpacking* 2175 miles?

The folks that are running the service are former thru-hikers with varied backpacking and outdoor experience. Probably much more so than most on Whiteblaze. Judge not....

http://www.bighike.com/about.html

Old Spice
03-04-2006, 21:29
hyoh and let others do the same

hyoh is a pathetic philosophy when it comes to mean that a strong critique of certain practices is not in order.

Sly
03-04-2006, 21:43
hyoh is a pathetic philosophy when it comes to mean that a strong critique of certain practices is not in order.

Just say what's on your mind. You have a beef with supported thru-hikes, the BigHike/Foot Travel?

sarbar
03-04-2006, 22:35
Is it anymore ridiculous than *backpacking* 2175 miles?

The folks that are running the service are former thru-hikers with varied backpacking and outdoor experience. Probably much more so than most on Whiteblaze. Judge not....

http://www.bighike.com/about.html



Having gone and looked at their site..I must say, it is awesome that they are going after their life dreams...and they look like a couple in love with life.
Awesome for them!

Moxie00
03-04-2006, 22:58
I saw Warren Doyle doing this type of hike in Virginia when I was out there and have seen him in Maine with his traveling slack packing show. We all hike our own hike and it may be a personel thing but I can't respect a hiker who was 100% supported with the same respect I have for a hiker that did it on their own, The Doyles hike hard and fast, I'll give them that, but when all your food, water, and gear travels in a van it is not the same experience. To never need to hitch hike or walk to town takes all the mystery and much of the adventure out of your hike. If thats the only way you can manage the AT it is better than staying home. Others may consider you a thru hiker but I just wont hold you in the same esteem as others that hiked unsupported.

papa john
03-04-2006, 23:04
That is your perogative. What makes you think they really care how you will think about them?

For me, if they can walk the entire 2175 miles then they have thru-hiked the trail.

bogey
03-04-2006, 23:17
Perhaps folks tunes will change their thinking that this is AOK after the new movie comes out ("Walk in the Woods") ready for a huge influx of hikers over the next four years or so? This would just be the beginning of "companies" like this that will start up......perhaps one may not 'get' the idea of how to treat the environment with care when you are not immersed in a 'self-propelled' hike.

Hark back to the early days of the river runners on the Colorado River. and Look at it now. licenses, permits. Fact is you can't float your own boat, can you?

Research will show that the weight of all those pack-laden hikers are doing irreparable harm to the AT, and legislation will be passed so that you can only slack-pack it with licensed concessionaired in order to lighten the weight and therefore the impact on the trail.

Quick now, before you reply, set Flame Mode = <OFF>

Klezmorim
03-04-2006, 23:25
I saw Warren Doyle doing this type of hike in Virginia when I was out there and have seen him in Maine with his traveling slack packing show. We all hike our own hike and it may be a personel thing but I can't respect a hiker who was 100% supported with the same respect I have for a hiker that did it on their own, The Doyles hike hard and fast, I'll give them that, but when all your food, water, and gear travels in a van it is not the same experience. To never need to hitch hike or walk to town takes all the mystery and much of the adventure out of your hike. If thats the only way you can manage the AT it is better than staying home. Others may consider you a thru hiker but I just wont hold you in the same esteem as others that hiked unsupported.
So, um, I guess we shouldn't wear clothes unless we personally planted and harvested the cotton or flax, spun our own thread, wove our own fabric, cut/sewed our own duds, rucksacks and canvas tents.... And I guess we need to raise our own veggies... and cattle so that we can slaughter them for the dried meat we will need and the leather for our own hand-stitched boots.... I guess we also need to learn metallurgy and automotive engineering and petrochemistry so that we can build our own automobiles and fuel depots to get us to the trailhead.... Oh, did you want to carry a digital camera/mp3 player with you on your hike? Well, then you need to....

Get the point? I'm not trying to be a smart (_!_), however... I agree with the poster who said something along the lines that a 70's-era hiker (me, way back when) would shake our head at the techno-goo we carry today. And if we can pay someone else to carry it for us and cook our meals?

"Heaven, I'm in heaven...."

HYOH. Don't use shelters or tents or hammocks or water filters/chemicals or mail drops or dogs or guns or stoves... Or use use ALL of the above. As Papa John said, "[i]f they can walk the entire 2175 miles then they have thru-hiked the trail."

Ah, sumpin' tells me this thread is going to be considered "Sensitive" real soon! ;)

generoll
03-04-2006, 23:50
no matter the topic someone will find a way to be offended or outraged. i doubt these two will make a go of it, but more power to them if they can. nice to be able to make a living doing something that you love.

Sandy B
03-05-2006, 09:28
If I had the money and the time..... OH wait if I had 1/2 the money and the time I would be leaving in a few weeks. :)
But I think it best for me to stay on active duty (USN) 7yrs 10 m and 28 days, then retire. Hike the remainder of the AT or do a complete hike? I still have a few days to think about it.
Really no matter how you are supported, you still have alot of trail to hike, alot of weather, alot of bugs, alot of dirt, ECT... and it is not going to be easy. This will lead to a % that will quit or just do sections.
Sandy B

Frosty
03-05-2006, 11:25
Rudyard Kipling wrote:

There are nine and sixty ways,
Of construction tribal lays,
And every single one of them is right.

Try spending more time doing what you want to do and what you enjoy, and spend less time worrying about how other people take their recreation.

Everyone one of those slackpackers has done or is doing something you aren't: Hiking the Appalachian Trail from end to end.

Get over yourself. Having a keyboard and internet access doesn't make you qualified to critique people who are hiking.

saimyoji
03-05-2006, 11:31
Your poll is missing an option: I mind my own business and don't judge the way other people want to hike.

lobster
03-05-2006, 12:24
1. Walking the trail is just a small part of the experience.

2. The supported hike is not a real backpacking trip!

3. These folks won't care whether they are respected or not and why should they?

4. The long distance hiking community is a small segment of society and respect is only gained among your fellow hikers. Folks know who the true backpackers are.

5. Obviously, hiking without the weight is far easier.

6. The effect on the AT of a supported hike is practically nothing.

7. People hike the AT for all sorts of reasons.

8. Even though a supported hiker can claim thru-hiker status, the amount of effort expended is far less than a typical self-supported backpacking trip. Not just physical effort, but to a larger degree mental effort! The support team takes the decision-making out of the equation.

9. In the end, their hike does not affect my hike at all!

10. HYOH

longshank
03-05-2006, 14:00
As far as judging people goes, if you say you don't judge people, you lie. Everyone does to some extent. The point of discussing topics is to issue judgment and opinion. And I must say that hiking this way avoids challenges and obstacles that make a through hike such an adventure on such a grand scale. What have you really accomplished if someone accomplished it for you? I agree w/ davidnh. It's difficult to respect someone's accomplishment when all they did was buy their way through it. They might as well pave the whole trail if that's what through hikking is coming to. maybe next the could install flat screen TV's and espresso machines in the shelters, too....

lobster
03-05-2006, 14:10
Everybody judges other people, but "HYOH" is more of a don't voice your judgment directly to that person or in other ways make that person aware of your opinions of their way of doing things.

saimyoji
03-05-2006, 14:24
Disagreement is different from judgement. You can disagree without casting judgement that something is wrong. I personally disagree with the notion of having someone else carry my pack, clean my dishes, wash my clothes, scrub my toilet, etc.... I do not however, judge those that have people do these things. I don't look down on those people, I don't classify them as being losers, I don't disrespect them.

I don't judge them for what they are doing. I do disagree with them though.


I disagree that discussing topics means you have to judge someone. You can disagree without saying that someone is wrong. Maybe its a state of mind...you wanting to do something doesn't offend me, therefore I don't judge you. IE: You want to have an abortion, fine, I would choose not to, but I won't tell you you will burn in hell for it. (just an example, not my personal opinion). You want to pay someone to do your hiking chores for you, that doesn't offend me.

Maybe I'm an exeption to your experiences to date. I will never tell you you are doing something wrong, just because I would do it differently...However, if what you do has a direct negative effect on me, well thats different. But the way someone hikes has no real effect on me, that I can percieve.

...Unless you hike with a dog, while talking on your cell phone and slinging a hammock while fantasising about Hillary. Oh, and if I find you with a gun I'm calling the cops.

BTW, hows MS doing?

Just Jeff
03-05-2006, 14:28
Judging it as not as difficult of an accomplishment is one thing...sure slackpacking isn't as tough as walking those same miles with a pack. But judging it as a less worthy experience is something different. Just because they didn't hike it like you think they should doesn't mean your hike was "better." Maybe you liked it better, and that's great for you - but HYOH means they should pick the hike that has the most value to them. And since they're paying for it, investing their time in it, and putting in the effort to walk the distance, I think they should do whatever brings them the most enjoyment. As long as they're not destroying the trail or lying about what they did, who cares?

Personally, I wouldn't find this type of slackpacking more enjoyable than humping my gear myself, and I think I'd miss out on a lot of the trail by not hitting the towns for resupply along the way...but judging slackpacking as a critique of how others spend their time, money and energy is pointless to me. At least they're enjoying themselves in nature.

neo
03-05-2006, 14:32
I GONNA HUMP THE TRAIL AND HANG IN MY HAMMOCK,COOK IN MY JET BOIL AND AQUA MIRA MY OWN WATER:cool: NEO

Just Jeff
03-05-2006, 14:37
But no one will see you 'cause you're all camoflauged and stealthy! :cool:

Ridge
03-05-2006, 14:51
How long till the trail becomes a big road?


Several mountain bike clubs along the AT are trying to figure out if they can get laws changed so they can ride their bikes on certain sections of the AT. Some already ride in defiance of the laws. Hopefully they'll get caught and slapped with a huge fine.

chief
03-05-2006, 15:10
in reading this thread, it seems some of you people are:

never make judgements (if you say so)

or

too PC to state your judgement (after all, you ARE the better person)

or

just two-faced (most probable)

neo
03-05-2006, 15:16
But no one will see you 'cause you're all camoflauged and stealthy! :cool:

love my camo man:cool: neo

Tin Man
03-05-2006, 15:26
I am picturing the luxury slackpacker and the backpacker on a budget in a stare-off about mid-trail and both thinking, "how pathetic is that?"

-OR-

Will they stare at each other and wish they were in the other's shoes?

-OR-

Will they stop and both laugh over what all this hullabaloo was all about?

:-?

papa john
03-05-2006, 15:40
In my experience, none of the above happened. We were all too happy to be on the trail doing what we wanted to do. There was curiosity about the way each other was hiking, but no judgements were made that I can remember. On the nights that we camped in the same spot everyone got together around the campfire and a good time was had by all.

Live and let live. If a slackpacker chooses to do it that way what is the impact on your hike? Nothing. Nothing at all. Can't see what all the hubbub is about. This is not a new idea. It has been tried in the past with less than stellar results.

BTW, everyone pays to hike the trail. "Luxury backpackers" ( I didn't see any luxuries) simply pay their guides rather than each individual merchant along the way.

Disney
03-05-2006, 15:42
I've run across some of the long distance slack packers with two cars. Both sets were with us moving north at about the same pace so we saw them frequently. As to how well they integrated, it depends on the person. One couple was aloof and fairly rude (NYC). The other couple was friendly and would occasionally leave trail magic for us. The difference was in their approach to what they were doing. The older, friendlier couple with the tiny trailer was doing it that way because they could not physically do it any other way. The lesbian couple from NYC who slept in motels every single night told us that they were looking forward to bragging about being thru hikers and showing men that women were tough too.

Heater
03-05-2006, 17:34
I GONNA HUMP THE TRAIL AND HANG IN MY HAMMOCK,

Gee.... Thanks for the visual, NOT!

Sly
03-05-2006, 18:42
In '97 there was a couple thru-hiking until the woman broke her leg near Erwin. I think it was Baltimore Jack who basically led the rescue and literally carried her out.

The next year they were on the trail again, this time her slackpacking him the remaining distance. During the course of their hike she helped a great number of thru-hikers, giving them rides, shuttling them to towns, slacking them.

In the course of a BigHike (if it ever happens) having met both briefly at the 2004 SoRuck, I'm sure Not Yet and Macon Tracks will also be helping other thru-hikers from time to time.

Are all the dissenters going to forgo their kindness because they don't agree? Will the same dissenters pass by trail magic soda, burgers and beer because they don't believe in being pampered?

There may be a few, but not many, and those that do are typically anal sorts.

warren doyle
03-05-2006, 21:02
My eighth (i.e., 1975,77,80, 90, 95; 2000, 05), and probably last, non-commercial, grassroots, 'folk', highly task-oriented group walking the entire AT will be in 2010. The 20-day practice hike/preparation period will start on 2008 Memorial Day weekend. Of the previous seven expeditions, six have had 100% completion rates of those who made the commitment to the purpose/mission of the expedition. We do the trail northbound in 127 days (mostly day hiking) following a schedule (first rest day is in Hanover, NH).
There is nothing 'slack' about this pilgrimage. Cost per person (for the expenses of a support van) will be from $700-1,000 per person depending on the price of gas in 2010 and number of people in the group. More details will be on my website below by early summer. I'll be at Damascus Trail Days with the video documentary of the 1990 AT Circle Expedition entitled "Circle of Dreams" or you can attend the Appalachian Trail Institute from May 15-18 prior to Trail Days.

neo
03-05-2006, 21:06
Gee.... Thanks for the visual, NOT!

nothing sexual about humping the the trail and hammock hanging lol:cool: neo

Old Spice
03-05-2006, 21:09
One couple was aloof and fairly rude (NYC).

Your just resentful of us from the big Apple becasue your stuck in Texas... Just kidding, half the impetus for my thru-hike is to get out of nyc for a few months.

longshank
03-05-2006, 21:56
hyoh is a pathetic philosophy when it comes to mean that a strong critique of certain practices is not in order.
hear hear!

longshank
03-05-2006, 21:58
Rudyard Kipling wrote:

There are nine and sixty ways,
Of construction tribal lays,
And every single one of them is right.

Try spending more time doing what you want to do and what you enjoy, and spend less time worrying about how other people take their recreation.

Everyone one of those slackpackers has done or is doing something you aren't: Hiking the Appalachian Trail from end to end.

Get over yourself. Having a keyboard and internet access doesn't make you qualified to critique people who are hiking.
Sure it does, frosty. I can critique anything I please, just as you can (and seem quick to) criticize me for doing so.

longshank
03-05-2006, 22:02
So, um, I guess we shouldn't wear clothes unless we personally planted and harvested the cotton or flax, spun our own thread, wove our own fabric, cut/sewed our own duds, rucksacks and canvas tents.... And I guess we need to raise our own veggies... and cattle so that we can slaughter them for the dried meat we will need and the leather for our own hand-stitched boots.... I guess we also need to learn metallurgy and automotive engineering and petrochemistry so that we can build our own automobiles and fuel depots to get us to the trailhead.... Oh, did you want to carry a digital camera/mp3 player with you on your hike? Well, then you need to....

Get the point? I'm not trying to be a smart (_!_), however... I agree with the poster who said something along the lines that a 70's-era hiker (me, way back when) would shake our head at the techno-goo we carry today. And if we can pay someone else to carry it for us and cook our meals?

"Heaven, I'm in heaven...."

HYOH. Don't use shelters or tents or hammocks or water filters/chemicals or mail drops or dogs or guns or stoves... Or use use ALL of the above. As Papa John said, "[i]f they can walk the entire 2175 miles then they have thru-hiked the trail."

Ah, sumpin' tells me this thread is going to be considered "Sensitive" real soon! ;)
not questioning whether or not they are legit, rather the ethics involved. I fear that this will create an amusment park/tourist attraction/posh vacation atmospere to the thru-hike and turn it into a grossly abused commercialized tract of land.

longshank
03-05-2006, 22:08
Disagreement is different from judgement. You can disagree without casting judgement that something is wrong. I personally disagree with the notion of having someone else carry my pack, clean my dishes, wash my clothes, scrub my toilet, etc.... I do not however, judge those that have people do these things. I don't look down on those people, I don't classify them as being losers, I don't disrespect them.

I don't judge them for what they are doing. I do disagree with them though.


I disagree that discussing topics means you have to judge someone. You can disagree without saying that someone is wrong. Maybe its a state of mind...you wanting to do something doesn't offend me, therefore I don't judge you. IE: You want to have an abortion, fine, I would choose not to, but I won't tell you you will burn in hell for it. (just an example, not my personal opinion). You want to pay someone to do your hiking chores for you, that doesn't offend me.

Maybe I'm an exeption to your experiences to date. I will never tell you you are doing something wrong, just because I would do it differently...However, if what you do has a direct negative effect on me, well thats different. But the way someone hikes has no real effect on me, that I can percieve.

...Unless you hike with a dog, while talking on your cell phone and slinging a hammock while fantasising about Hillary. Oh, and if I find you with a gun I'm calling the cops.

BTW, hows MS doing?
Again, everybody judges someone or something, whether you do it in your head or say it out loud. And I'm not judging people here, I'm judging a situation, two very diferent things. Without a sense of judgement we would be walking off of cliffs and trying to hug alligators. Your sense of judgment it there for a reason, it is not a bad thing. To think otherwise is a childish way to view the world.

hokiebpacker
03-05-2006, 22:26
I don't see any difference in this in spirit between those who speed hike (run) the trail trying for minimum time. They also have to be supported in the same way. I believe that a thru-hike is significantly easier in many aspects today compared to 20 or 30 years ago. The trail itself is better (grade, bridges, less road walking, etc). Also there is a huge infrastructure of support at towns along the way. Then the sheer number of hikers who offer support in may ways is a factor. Technology is also a plus in terms of lightening the pack. Many of these points have been touched on by others. The bottom line remains that walking over 2000 miles with or without a pack is a major accomplishment. One could even say that a true thru-hiker should carry all their gear and food and spend every night on the trail. The point is each person should decide what they want from their hike. Our job is to mind our own hike (with the understanding my hike should not impact your hike).

HokieBPacker

NotYet
03-05-2006, 22:35
The March 2006 issue of Outside Magazine called the trip "luxury through-hiking", but I doubt if most would really consider our planned supported thru-hike to be all that luxurious!

We will certainly be explaining to our potential clients that they'll be camping most days of the week, the food will be hardy and healthy but not gourmet, and the lodging when in town will involve the same options that other hikers have.

The hikers will have the luxury to spend more time each day on the trail because some of their chores will be taken care of, and they can bring a little more on the trip while carrying less. However, we're talking about 5 to 10 hikers a year. I hardly see this as turning the AT into an amusement park.

If concerned about the ethics of this endeavor, you might want to check out the thread titled "ATC trail guidelines" in the "Trail Concerns, Issues and History" forum. Our service was discussed extensively there and in a few other threads as well.

napster
03-05-2006, 22:59
Some folks have disabilities or they can't make a hike on their own for various reasons.Recently I ate a huge dose of humble pie for judging someone else, so I say If it works for them then rock on!

lobster
03-05-2006, 23:12
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hiker5
03-05-2006, 23:44
This isn't so much in response to one specific post, but to those who can't seem to let people hike as they see fit.

As long as the "luxury packers" still allow you to hike your own hike, what is your beef with them? As others have pointed out, speedpacking attempts are sometimes supported. Whats wrong with that? Don't like it, then don't participate. As long as the hired crew isn't driving ahead to slash and burn some more forest to make camp each night, what do you care?

If I hike with a support crew (won't happen any time soon) and you decide that I am not up to your standard of what a hiker is, why should I care? I'll be enjoying my time on the trail, and allowing others to do the same. How can you be so hung up on the fact that someone wants to do things different than you?

How about this - "I built my house with my own two hands and it was a wonderful, life-affirming experience to provide shelter for my family this way. I can't stand all these rich jerks who just buy their houses, they don't deserve to have shelter if they can't provide it themselves." It is an absurd statement, but thats what it sounds like to me when you put down the supported hikers.

NotYet
03-05-2006, 23:55
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I guess it depends upon what is meant by well-rounded.

Because they have less weight to burden them and fewer chores propelling them forward, the hikers on a trip like this might choose to check out those slightly longer side trails to spectacular sights and/or historical sites that many of the thru-hikers decide to pass on by. The poet, painter or photographer might be able to spend a little more time creating along the trail. The birdwatcher, geologist, entomologist or botonist might be able to observe more closely. The reader might decide to tackle those works they haven't made time for. The seeker might spend more time finding...

Of course, these things may or may not happen. The choice as to how you spend your time exploring the trail is your own. I truly believe that everyone's experience on the trail is unique and everyone's purpose for being there is unique. One person's view of what makes a hike well-rounded can be vastly different from another's view. To me, it's more important that I both accept and relish the fact that life will always bring me an adventure that is different from everyone else's. So, I don't worry about how other people choose to hike.

ed bell
03-06-2006, 01:22
Wondering if you read this thread yet Longshank, and if so what makes you think that this is a disturbing new trend on the AT? IMHO this method of a thru-hike attempt is irrelevent to the overall health of the trail, way too small of a percent of overall use. Hell, almost non-existant. Not for me as a service, but at least I consider the proprietors friends of the trail. As far as judging the merits of their customer's achievement, I would think one could spend time in some other way. Nice choice of a hot-button subject, though. What else you got?:D

longshank
03-06-2006, 01:22
It's not about how people choose too hike, but the capital exploitation of something that's simplicity and beauty makes it special. I feel that the trails appeal is the challenge of conquering something that is insurmountable to most. Having someone do everything for you takes something away that is intrinsic to the idea of hiking the whole thing. It makes it a joy ride that anyone can just jump on and amble on through. Where is the spirit in that? where is the soul?

ed bell
03-06-2006, 01:25
Lost the link on the last post.

ed bell
03-06-2006, 01:27
Test??http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4933
Did that work?

swede
03-06-2006, 01:47
Human nature being what it is, people who hire others to do their chores will demand extra. I have a problem with outfitters in general when they use public land or water to squire their "sports." They tend to control the resource; witness all the color coded school buses and fumes that clog up every stretch of roadside water in the Smokies.
As a scoutmaster, I was amused at troops who rolled up with a complete chuck wagon tended by adults, and the kids did not learn a thing. Odds are, they were in our campsite marveling at our scouts efforts to cook, make camp, etc.
HYOH, with the emphasis on OWN. You'll be the richer for it.:-?

generoll
03-06-2006, 08:52
god save us from the elitists

Lone Wolf
03-06-2006, 09:02
There is a new service being offered in '07, perhaps you may have heard of it..."Foot Travel", an outfitter based in N.C., offers (for a low price of only $10,120) full gear-transport and other logistical services at key points on the trail. They do all your cooking and cleaning, all you need is a daypack. Let's hear it for the commercialization of everything. Check it out at www.bighike.com (http://www.bighike.com)
Old news. No big deal. Great idea. I hope they do well.

NICKTHEGREEK
03-06-2006, 09:49
There is a new service being offered in '07, perhaps you may have heard of it..."Foot Travel", an outfitter based in N.C., offers (for a low price of only $10,120) full gear-transport and other logistical services at key points on the trail. They do all your cooking and cleaning, all you need is a daypack. Let's hear it for the commercialization of everything. Check it out at www.bighike.com (http://www.bighike.com)

Great idea at least to a degree. I'd pay for the logistical services just to avoid most if not all, off trail days. I'll carry my own pack, and make my own bed and meals, thanks just the same.
I figure that would cut 3 weeks off a thru hike, and that's about $7,500 in lost wages and expenses.

I doubt you could make it work, I just don't see being able to predict with any certainty where I'd be on the trail 6 days and 5 hours from now to make a connection with the supply guy.

BlackCloud
03-06-2006, 10:12
Imperical proof that our country is going soft.:mad: :o :( :(

NotYet
03-06-2006, 10:47
It's not about how people choose too hike, but the capital exploitation of something that's simplicity and beauty makes it special. I feel that the trails appeal is the challenge of conquering something that is insurmountable to most. Having someone do everything for you takes something away that is intrinsic to the idea of hiking the whole thing. It makes it a joy ride that anyone can just jump on and amble on through. Where is the spirit in that? where is the soul?

I agree that hiking does have a simple beauty. The spirit and soul of a hike are found in the hiker who chooses to experience a walk on a trail.

If the trail's appeal for you is "the challenge of conquering something that is insurmountable to most" then that is what appeals to you. The same idea of conquering a challenge may also appeal to others who choose a supported hike, but the challenges that they may face could be different than yours. While at the same time, the notion of conquering challenges might not even occur to other hikers because that may have nothing to do with why they hike. The appeal of the trail is different for different people...

Incidentally, we will not be doing everything for our clients. They will be the ones walking over 2000 miles; they will be dealing with the elements; they will be setting up their own campsites, etc. Hopefully, they will be out there finding joy in the simple beauty of hiking.

Just Jeff
03-06-2006, 10:56
god save us from the elitists

Which ones...those "filthy capitalists" making money off the trail or the ones who are rich enough to pay for it?

Shanks, public lands are just that - public. Not yours to decide that your use is better than theirs and that they're not allowed to sully your idea of what the public trail should look like. For all of its faults, there are regulations governing how certain public lands like national parks can be used for money-making services.

I commend them for finding a way to earn a living on what they love and for sharing the trail with people who might not find it otherwise.

orangebug
03-06-2006, 11:07
Sigh, predictable thread. If someone can figure out a way to break even with such a service, I have little concern for those willing to fork over the bucks.

warren doyle
03-06-2006, 12:16
The AT Circle Expedition members plan, buy and cook their own individual meals; plan, buy and set-up/take-down their own shelter; walk, under their own power, the entire Appalachian Trail (no blue/yellow blazing); individually decide (i.e., self-selected) over the realistic 20-day preparation whether they want to commit to the expedition's mission of everyone starting together at Springer and everyone finishing together without anyone droppng out. That mission is just as challenging to accomplish as an individual walking the trail on their own. Over the last thirty years, there have been thousands of successful thru-hikers yet only under a hundred circle members atop Katahdin. There are reasons for that.

There have been only a few other attempts at non-commercial/commercial van-supported group hikes of the entire AT in one hiking season. Most have been one or two-shot deals with neither economic success (for the commercial ventures) nor close to 100% completion success (for both non-commercial/commercial attempts).

I don't see these attempts as a threat to the trail; they are only threatening to those close-minded or naive posters who have the audacity to make their critical comments when they haven't even done a thru-hike yet.

Also, included in the 20-day circle expedition preparation period are 12 days of backpacking averaging 20-22 miles per day. The circle expedition is not for everybody - many people don't want to follow a schedule; many people don't care if they complete the entire trail or not; many people don't want their first scheduled rest day to be in Hanover, NH; many people don't want to hike in bad weather; and, many people are afraid of making a commitment to others that they will finish. I find that it is easier to carry the physical burden of a backpack than the emotional burden of making and living up to a commitment you make to yourself and others. However, there are a small percentage of people that want this kind of experience (i.e., finishing the entire trail with everyone you started with) for themselves and I respect and honor that and I, as an educator, will act as a facilitator to help them reach their dreams.

generoll
03-06-2006, 12:29
Jeff, I think you misunderstood my intent. By elitists I mean those who think that there is only one way (their way) to hike or raft or engage in any sort of activity. Perhaps I should have said "purists". In any case, I'm not bothered by the idea of someone providing a service and making a living at it. I am bothered by those who are bothered by the idea and choose to stir the pot.

Oh well, 6 more days and then I will be away from the computer and doing my own hike. Since I'm a section hiker I'm sure that there will be those who are bothered by the idea that they have to share the trail with me. Fortunately those attitudes seem to be restricted to the internet. Funny how actually hiking seems to separate the whiners from the doers.

lobster
03-06-2006, 12:36
From the website:

"Foot Travel provides you with a "fully supported thru-hike" of the Appalachian Trail. What does that mean? It means that we take many of the worries, burdens and tedious chores out of the journey. Our focus is to make sure that you have everything you need to successfully hike from Georgia to Maine. We want you to fulfill your dream."

Overcoming those worries, burdens, and tedious chores is a significant part of the accomplishment of completing such an endeavor.

Part of the whole equation of doing a thru-hike is the "not knowing" whether you can complete it. If that factor is practically removed, something surely has been lost!

longshank
03-06-2006, 13:06
From the website:

"Foot Travel provides you with a "fully supported thru-hike" of the Appalachian Trail. What does that mean? It means that we take many of the worries, burdens and tedious chores out of the journey. Our focus is to make sure that you have everything you need to successfully hike from Georgia to Maine. We want you to fulfill your dream."

Overcoming those worries, burdens, and tedious chores is a significant part of the accomplishment of completing such an endeavor.

Part of the whole equation of doing a thru-hike is the "not knowing" whether you can complete it. If that factor is practically removed, something surely has been lost!
Thank you , lobster. That is exactly what I've been getting at.

longshank
03-06-2006, 13:09
NotYet, are you involved with FootTravel?

Just Jeff
03-06-2006, 13:48
Jeff, I think you misunderstood my intent.

No, I understood what you meant...I guess I wasn't clear enough in my post. I was just pointing out that 'elitists' on both sides have been criticized in this thread.

Tin Man
03-06-2006, 13:55
I dare say no two thru-hikes are the same. Some take more zero days than others and get more out of the off trail activities. Some go lighter than others and experience those advantages and disadvantages. Some do more miles per day than others and don't have as many days to experience the trail. Some enjoy more trail magic than others and benefit from it more than others. Some take more time to stop and smell the roses than others. Some get more outside assistance than others. Some hike alone. Some hike with friends or a partner. And, yes, some hike fully supported. So what?

Each thru-hike is different. Yes, fully supported thru-hikers will have a different experience than those with less support, but most have some support. We all have a choice on how we experience the trail. Each of these choices is different and results in a different experience. Choice is what it is all about and choice is all part of the American way. :)

The Desperado
03-06-2006, 14:19
Well, this has been Aaaaa interesting ?.....

Per L. Wolf--kinda,--- Very Old News. Really no big deal. I wish them well.......

dperry
03-06-2006, 15:10
It's not about how people choose too hike, but the capital exploitation of something that's simplicity and beauty makes it special. I feel that the trails appeal is the challenge of conquering something that is insurmountable to most. Having someone do everything for you takes something away that is intrinsic to the idea of hiking the whole thing. It makes it a joy ride that anyone can just jump on and amble on through. Where is the spirit in that? where is the soul?

One of the hardest things about living in freedom is accepting that other people will choose to use that freedom differently than you do.
You can tell people what you feel the best way to do things is, but you have to face the fact that they may not agree with you, and that as long as it doesn't directly hurt you, there's not much you can do about it.

And as for the trail turning into an amusement park, get real. Keep in mind that those taking advantage of this service will still have to a.) take 4-6 months out of their lives b.) walk 2,175 miles while getting stinky, buggy and tired c.) spend most of their evenings on the hard ground in the woods (judging from FootTravel's website, they won't be spending any more time in town than most self-propelled thru-hikers do.)

Most people wouldn't do that if you paid them $10,000. They sure won't pay someone else to do it.

NotYet
03-06-2006, 15:34
NotYet, are you involved with FootTravel?

Hi Longshank,

I'm sorry that I did not make this more clear earlier. This topic has been on so many threads that I forgot to make sure that those viewing this thread were aware of the fact that my husband, Macon Tracks, and I are the owners of Foot Travel, LLC.

If anyone has questions about any of our services, please feel free to email us at [email protected]. We'll be glad to answer you (our replies will, however, come from [email protected]).


p.s. back on post #64 I mentioned our meals would be "hardy"...I meant to write "hearty"...the main character of the book I'm reading right now is Hardy...OOPS! :banana (I sure miss that edit button)

NotYet
03-06-2006, 15:54
From the website:

"Foot Travel provides you with a "fully supported thru-hike" of the Appalachian Trail. What does that mean? It means that we take many of the worries, burdens and tedious chores out of the journey. Our focus is to make sure that you have everything you need to successfully hike from Georgia to Maine. We want you to fulfill your dream."

Overcoming those worries, burdens, and tedious chores is a significant part of the accomplishment of completing such an endeavor.

Part of the whole equation of doing a thru-hike is the "not knowing" whether you can complete it. If that factor is practically removed, something surely has been lost!

It is our goal to "lighten the load" for hikers who don't want to spend as much time or energy on some of the daily burdens. However, there will still be plenty of worries, burdens and tedium for the hikers on our trip. That's just going to be part of a 5-month hike! (though that doesn't make a very good slogan, does it?) ;)

We also don't pretend to guarantee that all of the hikers will complete the trip. We want them to, but that will ultimately be determined by each individual hiker and the commitment that he or she has to finishing. "Not knowing" will still be part of the equation until the last day of the hike.

Just Jeff
03-06-2006, 16:10
I'm sorry that I did not make this more clear earlier. This topic has been on so many threads that I forgot to make sure that those viewing this thread were aware of the fact that my husband, Macon Tracks, and I are the owners of Foot Travel, LLC.

If anyone has questions about any of our services, please feel free to email us at [email protected]. We'll be glad to answer you (our replies will, however, come from [email protected]).

...snip...

(I sure miss that edit button)

It's great to have the owners' comments in a situation like this...thanks for piping in!

Regarding the edit button, if you're talking about your business on WB a small donation might be appropriate. And $10 gets you the edit button back! Just a thought. :)

NotYet
03-06-2006, 16:27
Just to be clear, we have never initiated any of the forums that discuss Foot Travel. We do have a reciprocal link to our site here on WB, which we asked permission to do. I do usually jump into a thread once I find out that people are discussing us...hopefully, I can clarify any confusion about our services.

Thanks for the info about the edit button, Just Jeff. I must have missed it when that change took place. Now all I have to do is find $10 and I'll be set! :o

longshank
03-07-2006, 12:40
It is our goal to "lighten the load" for hikers who don't want to spend as much time or energy on some of the daily burdens. However, there will still be plenty of worries, burdens and tedium for the hikers on our trip. That's just going to be part of a 5-month hike! (though that doesn't make a very good slogan, does it?) ;)

We also don't pretend to guarantee that all of the hikers will complete the trip. We want them to, but that will ultimately be determined by each individual hiker and the commitment that he or she has to finishing. "Not knowing" will still be part of the equation until the last day of the hike.
Again, take away the daily burdens, and you take away a huge chunk of what the hike is about. I think it's silly, really. It's not unlike outfitters such as Mountain Madness or Adventure Consultants who take people up Everest that aren't really fit to be up there. And we all know how that had panned out for them. Not that a threat of such grand scale is lurking on the AT, but come on...It's like having servants on the trail. It's a hike, for god's sake. If it was really their dream to hike the AT, then they should be able to figure it out for themselves. It's not a quantum physics equation. And as for the people saying HYOH, well, they're not. Someone is doing it for them. And no matter how zen and impartial everyone wants to be, hiking this way is just lame, unless you're seriously old and frail.

longshank
03-07-2006, 12:44
One of the hardest things about living in freedom is accepting that other people will choose to use that freedom differently than you do.
You can tell people what you feel the best way to do things is, but you have to face the fact that they may not agree with you, and that as long as it doesn't directly hurt you, there's not much you can do about it.

And as for the trail turning into an amusement park, get real. Keep in mind that those taking advantage of this service will still have to a.) take 4-6 months out of their lives b.) walk 2,175 miles while getting stinky, buggy and tired c.) spend most of their evenings on the hard ground in the woods (judging from FootTravel's website, they won't be spending any more time in town than most self-propelled thru-hikers do.)

Most people wouldn't do that if you paid them $10,000. They sure won't pay someone else to do it.
And I have no problem facing the fact that people may disagree. If I did, I wouldn't bother voicing opinions at all.

Lone Wolf
03-07-2006, 12:45
You have no idea what you are blathering about. Walk the walk first then pontificate.

Tin Man
03-07-2006, 12:49
We all know how easy it is to plan and execute a thru-hike. :rolleyes: But, it may not be so easy for others. The rest of the world operates on guided and supported tours, so why should we expect the AT be exempt from the "spolied" approach?

Good luck with your business NotYet!

longshank
03-07-2006, 13:02
We all know how easy it is to plan and execute a thru-hike. :rolleyes: But, it may not be so easy for others. The rest of the world operates on guided and supported tours, so why should we expect the AT be exempt from the "spolied" approach?

Good luck with your business NotYet!
Of course it isn't easy, but that's the point of it. If it was easy, everyone would do it. And if it keeps getting easier for them, they will. And then what will you have? I don't know, I guess I just have an inbred contempt for spoiled people. The way I see it, hiking the AT should be a trial of one's self. I, for one couldn't feel good about doing it this way. I could see employing someone if there was an aspect to the trip that NEEDED an outfitter, such as being flown somewhere on a pontoon plane, renting a canoe, etc. But this way is just sheer laziness for rich people who would pefer little servant people to do all their work for them while they just enjoy the juicy parts. I find it pathetic.

kyhipo
03-07-2006, 13:11
Of course it isn't easy, but that's the point of it. If it was easy, everyone would do it. And if it keeps getting easier for them, they will. And then what will you have? I don't know, I guess I just have an inbred contempt for spoiled people. The way I see it, hiking the AT should be a trial of one's self. I, for one couldn't feel good about doing it this way. I could see employing someone if there was an aspect to the trip that NEEDED an outfitter, such as being flown somewhere on a pontoon plane, renting a canoe, etc. But this way is just sheer laziness for rich people who would pefer little servant people to do all their work for them while they just enjoy the juicy parts. I find it pathetic.
why such the critical attitude towards people who choose to have help,its not that the helpers will actually be doing their walkings besides in the long run its their choice like yours is,these people have spent 10grand on a worthy cause hiking the AT,they could visit anywhere but they choose the AT:eek: ky

lobster
03-07-2006, 13:19
I think it is quite pathetic also.

Longshanks, is that avatar of your on t-shirts? I would buy one if it was.

Blue Jay
03-07-2006, 13:22
Part of the whole equation of doing a thru-hike is the "not knowing" whether you can complete it. If that factor is practically removed, something surely has been lost!

Yes, the boring, ego driven, worthless part.

longshank
03-07-2006, 13:24
No T-shirts yet, but if I start making them, you will get one free of charge.

longshank
03-07-2006, 13:26
Yes, the boring, ego driven, worthless part.
How is accomplishing a thru hike with out a highly paid, all frills-included luxury supprot team ego driven?

longshank
03-07-2006, 13:26
Yes, the boring, ego driven, worthless part.
Or WORTHLESS? Are you for real?

longshank
03-07-2006, 13:28
You have no idea what you are blathering about. Walk the walk first then pontificate.
You have no idea what You are blathering about. Think first, then speak.

Ender
03-07-2006, 13:32
Of course it isn't easy, but that's the point of it.

Well, for you that may be true, but for a lot of people, that hassle is only an impediment to getting out into the outdoors. Some people only want to be in the outdoors, and avoid all hassle.

Just because something is true for you, don't try to make it true for other people, because it's not. Everyone is different, and have different goals. For some people, just being out there is what they're looking for, and not the challenges of organizing a long hike.

To each their own, and since they're on public land, what the heck do I care?

longshank
03-07-2006, 13:32
why such the critical attitude towards people who choose to have help,its not that the helpers will actually be doing their walkings besides in the long run its their choice like yours is,these people have spent 10grand on a worthy cause hiking the AT,they could visit anywhere but they choose the AT:eek: ky
I just feel that it is cheating, not just the trail, but you cheat yourself out of one of the most challengeing aspect of hiking the trail. It's like travleing through a poor country in a fully loaded monster limo, then popping out hear and there, feeling as though you've experienced their culture.It's seperating yourself from the whole experience.

Tin Man
03-07-2006, 13:34
Of course it isn't easy, but that's the point of it. If it was easy, everyone would do it. And if it keeps getting easier for them, they will. And then what will you have? I don't know, I guess I just have an inbred contempt for spoiled people. The way I see it, hiking the AT should be a trial of one's self. I, for one couldn't feel good about doing it this way. I could see employing someone if there was an aspect to the trip that NEEDED an outfitter, such as being flown somewhere on a pontoon plane, renting a canoe, etc. But this way is just sheer laziness for rich people who would pefer little servant people to do all their work for them while they just enjoy the juicy parts. I find it pathetic.


I think it is quite pathetic also.

Longshanks, is that avatar of your on t-shirts? I would buy one if it was.

I am sure there are things that each of us do that are considered pathetic to others.


And speaking of easier or being spoiled - As has been said before, it is easier now than it was before all the lighter gear came out. Does this mean we should carry heavier gear or begrudge the next generation with still lighter gear?

People are only going to get out of the trail what they put into it. Let each decide for themselves what they want out of the AT experience. Let them hike in peace their way as I am sure they will do for you.

longshank
03-07-2006, 13:34
Well, for you that may be true, but for a lot of people, that hassle is only an impediment to getting out into the outdoors. Some people only want to be in the outdoors, and avoid all hassle.

Just because something is true for you, don't try to make it true for other people, because it's not. Everyone is different, and have different goals. For some people, just being out there is what they're looking for, and not the challenges of organizing a long hike.

To each their own, and since they're on public land, what the heck do I care?
I'm not rying to make anybody do or not do anything. I'm just defending my opinions and ideas, as are you.

longshank
03-07-2006, 13:36
quote:"And speaking of easier or being spoiled - As has been said before, it is easier now than it was before all the lighter gear came out. Does this mean we should carry heavier gear or begrudge the next generation with still lighter gear?"end quote

No, but we should carry our gear and accomplish it on it's terms.

Ender
03-07-2006, 13:41
No, but we should carry our gear and accomplish it on it's terms.

Says who? Says you? Again, why should your truth be their truth?

It's a thru-hike, not a thru-backpack. They can do it whichever way they like.

lobster
03-07-2006, 13:41
"And speaking of easier or being spoiled - As has been said before, it is easier now than it was before all the lighter gear came out. Does this mean we should carry heavier gear or begrudge the next generation with still lighter gear?"

As long as they are not supported, I could care less if they carry 0 pounds or 100 pounds. As long as they are the ones having to make the day-to-day decisions instead of some outside entity, that is what matters. Lighter gear has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Also, they can hike in peace all they want, but I still have the right to think that their hike is pathetic!

hopefulhiker
03-07-2006, 13:41
My thru hike was a fifty year old's dream trip/ midlife crisis. I didn't spend 11,000 but I did take the opportunity to slack pack around 300 miles of the hike.. The enjoyment level went up when I did that. As long as you put in the miles does it really matter how much you are carrying? Also I thought planning the logistics out,cooking your own food, and having the freedom to camp at a nice campsite was a big part of the fun of a thru hike... but when a good slack packing opportunity presented itself, well I became addicted to it....:sun

longshank
03-07-2006, 13:44
Says who? Says you? Again, why should your truth be their truth?

It's a thru-hike, not a thru-backpack. They can do it whichever way they like.
Yes, says me. That is my opinion. So what if I feel that way? What's your problem with that?

orangebug
03-07-2006, 13:46
What a predictable thread. It must be quite a burden to carry such contempt for strangers.

longshank
03-07-2006, 13:46
My thru hike was a fifty year old's dream trip/ midlife crisis. I didn't spend 11,000 but I did take the opportunity to slack pack around 300 miles of the hike.. The enjoyment level went up when I did that. As long as you put in the miles does it really matter how much you are carrying? Also I thought planning the logistics out,cooking your own food, and having the freedom to camp at a nice campsite was a big part of the fun of a thru hike... but when a good slack packing opportunity presented itself, well I became addicted to it....:sun
But at the end of the day, you were able to say that you did it. YOU did it. That's worth more to me than $10,000 dollars. You can't buy that.

longshank
03-07-2006, 13:48
What a predictable thread. It must be quite a burden to carry such contempt for strangers.
Again, and not surprisingly so, I am misunderstood. I have no contempt for anyone. But certaing practices I absolutley do hold in contempt. It has nothing do do with any person, but rather an idea or ideas.

Ender
03-07-2006, 13:48
Yes, says me. That is my opinion. So what if I feel that way? What's your problem with that?

I have no problem with people thinking that, but by saying "they should" this and "they should" that and "they shouldn't" this other thing, you're trying to make others hike your hike. Saying "I believe" is very different than saying "you should".

Tin Man
03-07-2006, 13:50
Longshank and Lobster,

Easy dudes. Life is too short for this pointless blathering. Happy Trails!

longshank
03-07-2006, 13:51
I have no problem with people thinking that, but by saying "they should" this and "they should" that and "they shouldn't" this other thing, you're trying to make others hike your hike. Saying "I believe" is very different than saying "you should".
I have already stated several times that these are my OPINIONS. Your semantic manipulation of my message is juvenile.

longshank
03-07-2006, 13:52
Longshank and Lobster,

Easy dudes. Life is too short for this pointless blathering. Happy Trails!
you're right. Happy trails to you as well. But my opinions still stand.

Tin Man
03-07-2006, 14:08
you're right. Happy trails to you as well. But my opinions still stand.

Of course. We wouldn't want it any other way. ;)

KirkMcquest
03-07-2006, 14:21
I can't read through seven pages of stuff, so I'll just respond to what I've read so far. There seems to be two points here that need to be addressed.

A. Do we have the right to criticise the way other people hike.

and b:

B. Does high-dollar support detract from the thru-hike experience?

A) people have the right to hike any way they want ( we all know this), this is called freedom. That same freedom gives me the right to criticise/judge them. FREEDOM goes both ways.

B) I believe that support team scenarios detract from thru-hiking and here's why; The difficulties encountered during a thru-hike represents a challenge. The greater the challenge, the greater the satisfaction of completion. Given this fact the following is true;
let A = a self-guided thru-hike
let B= all the burdens of logistics/full pack/transport to and fro trailheads that are passed on to the support team
let C= a supported hike
therefore;

A-B=C

so that,

C<A See! mathematical proof that supported hikers are cheating themselves!!

KirkMcquest
03-07-2006, 14:23
so that C<A. mathematical proof!!!

KirkMcquest
03-07-2006, 14:23
so that c

KirkMcquest
03-07-2006, 14:24
C<A. Mathematical proof!!!

longshank
03-07-2006, 14:34
Kirk is experiencing tech. difficulties. What he wanted to say was:A-b=c, therfore c<a, mathematically proving my point.

longshank
03-07-2006, 14:35
c<a, mathematically

longshank
03-07-2006, 14:43
the sum of A is greater than the sum of C.

KirkMcquest
03-07-2006, 14:45
That just didn't want to work

mambo_tango
03-07-2006, 14:47
the letter C is fickle.

longshank
03-07-2006, 14:50
the letter C is fickle.
.....How so?

longshank
03-07-2006, 14:50
Oh, I see...

Ridge
03-07-2006, 15:19
I've always wanted to "Cloud Blaze" the trail. Take a Cessna from Amicalola SP to Baxter, camping at the Airports along the way. A chopper would be even better, stopping at different trail towns, along the trail, etc. Might cost a wee bit, but what the heck.

longshank
03-07-2006, 15:22
I've always wanted to "Cloud Blaze" the trail. Take a Cessna from Amicalola SP to Baxter, camping at the Airports along the way. A chopper would be even better, stopping at different trail towns, along the trail, etc. Might cost a wee bit, but what the heck.
I was looking into how much it would cost to be fired from a cannon on springer mountain all the way to katahdin in a supper-plush luxury capsule with a butler...

rhjanes
03-07-2006, 15:24
I think Lobster should start a service. For, say $10K, he carries you all the way. While the support van supplies tents, steak etc.
sort of like Everest has become, except they charge about $60 for two sherpa's to carry you to the top...... :-?

longshank
03-07-2006, 15:36
I think Lobster should start a service. For, say $10K, he carries you all the way. While the support van supplies tents, steak etc.
sort of like Everest has become, except they charge about $60 for two sherpa's to carry you to the top...... :-?
Lobster should get paid $10K for being carried by them. They should be honored to be in the company of a true hiker.

NotYet
03-07-2006, 21:39
I have planned and prepared meals for backpacking and camping trips since 7th grade. I continue to feed myself on a daily basis. :)

During my thru-hike, I cooked most every night. For me, this was not a huge challenge (or a big deal). I certainly didn't feel I needed to prove to myself that I could feed myself using store bought food, nor was that why I was out there. I was, however, happy to eat anything that was offered during the trip...;)

People are out on the trail for different reasons. I was just glancing through my little trail journal and found this rhyme from Oct. 17, 2000. I had hiked all day through the rain and was staying at Manassas Gap Shelter with the "Manassas Gap Monster" (which tried to attack later that night!!!)...

"The reason I'm hiking? I haven't a clue!
But the feeling within says it's what I must do.
2 by 6 inches, rectangle so white,
I follow that blaze and know that it's right
To walk in the woods, good weather or bad.
Each turn on this trail? New lessons are had!"

My hike was about what my hike was about...not better or worse or right or wrong. I don't worry why other people hike, or what brings them joy or purpose...but I do wish them well on their own journeys.

No Belay
03-07-2006, 23:50
How long till the trail becomes a big road?


Longshank, the answer to your rhetorical question is very simplistic to old fogies like me that hiked the AT back in the 19th Century. It ALREADY is a big road. Compared to what it was in the past and to the other "long trails" of America, our AT is an urbanized 4 lane park walk. We can hike over 2000 miles without a map, carry 4 days worth of food and be overstocked, and I've noticed lately that allot of our fellow hikers know more about the local watering holes than they do about the AT's water holes. White blazes and signs are more prolific than short people on the Wizard of Oz and there aren't a whole lot of areas anymore that CPs and Blackberries won't work. Saw a SAT phone on Mount Rogers last month. We have to make reservations to start our trip, SOBO, and weather is no longer the main parameter when we contemplate our final north bound sprint. We have to be more concerned about when Mr.State Park Ranger is going to turn the key and close the ride. Yuppie slackpacking is just an unnatural degradation of what will lead to greater bureaucratic control, i.e. permits, shelter reservations, required itinerarys etc, that comes with the commercial exploitation of our nations natural resources. Remember when we used to be able to float our N.C. and Ga. white water streams at will? The permits weren't prompted by private boaters.

"Lord, help me to be the person that my dog thinks I am."

No Belay
03-08-2006, 00:03
to old fogies like me that hiked the AT back in the 19th Century. It ALREADY is a big road.

My girl friend brought to my attention that the AT didn't exist in the 19th Century. I meant the 1900's. 1971

Alzheimer's sucks.

Skyline
03-08-2006, 00:41
This thing has been tried before. It hasn't been a financial success. I don't know why BigHike thinks it can make money where others didn't but they have the same right to go broke as those who tried before them.

I think there would be a decent chance of something like this succeeding on a smaller scale, offered on a recurring (once or twice per month) schedule. Like a thru-hike of Shenandoah National Park, using the AT and/or side trails. It could be marketed locally in the Greater DC area, which is where a lot of SNP users come from. Or the 100 Mile Wilderness, culminating with a climb up Katahdin. These would take two weeks tops and could be provided efficiently, for a reasonable fee. In other words, a traditional vacation-length backpacking experience turned into a dayhiking experience.

But five or six months for $10,000? Where's the market for something like that? You'd have to have a minimum of six to eight people to be financially viable, all willing to go on the exact same schedule and stay together the whole way. Not likely.

longshank
03-08-2006, 05:28
This thing has been tried before. It hasn't been a financial success. I don't know why BigHike thinks it can make money where others didn't but they have the same right to go broke as those who tried before them.

I think there would be a decent chance of something like this succeeding on a smaller scale, offered on a recurring schedule. Like a thru-hike of Shenandoah National Park, using the AT and/or side trails. Or the 100 Mile Wilderness, culminating with a climb up Katahdin. These would take two weeks tops and could be provided efficiently, for a reasonable fee. In other words, a traditional vacation-length backpacking experience turned into a dayhiking experience.

But five or six months for $10,000? Where's the market for something like that? You'd have to have a minimum of six to eight people to be financially viable, all willing to go on the exact same schedule and stay together the whole way. Not likely.
I hope you're right. the people paying for a service like this don't even realize what thy're sacrificing.

Lone Wolf
03-08-2006, 07:48
I hope you're right. the people paying for a service like this don't even realize what thy're sacrificing.
And you do? You're a cyber hiker.

longshank
03-08-2006, 13:16
And you do? You're a cyber hiker.
What would you know about my hikes?

Lone Wolf
03-08-2006, 13:17
Somebody say something?:rolleyes:

longshank
03-08-2006, 13:19
Yes. I did.

KirkMcquest
03-08-2006, 13:20
what's a cyber-hiker?

longshank
03-08-2006, 13:21
what's a cyber-hiker?
Someone like L.Wolf, who undoubtedly logs more hous on WB than both of us combined.

sherrill
03-08-2006, 13:27
Lone Wolf has hiked more miles than you two idiots have replied.

I don't post often but I have to say that Whiblaze suffers for fools like you.

longshank
03-08-2006, 13:35
Lone Wolf has hiked more miles than you two idiots have replied.

I don't post often but I have to say that Whiblaze suffers for fools like you.
Thank you for your opinion. I will file that away right next to my "# of miles lone wolf has hiked" folder in the "I could'nt care less" section. I hope you enjoyed wasting your time putting up your pointless and nasty post. Furthermore, I wasn't aware that the number of miles you've hiked gives free liscence to act like a tool.

sherrill
03-08-2006, 13:52
File it anywhere you want.

I did my AT thru in 1983, have hiked the PCT, CDT, Benton Mackaye, numerous other trails in England, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand.

If you want to contribute advice to hikers on Whiteblaze I'll welcome your opinion. Otherwise, crap like you two guys are spewing is worthless.

Normally I just read but when you two think you can rag on someone like Lone Wolf, who contributes to this forum, and helps hikers near his home in Damascus, I get offended.

I'm not looking for a fight, I'll not respond, I'll continue to just read.

And, if you indeed put feet on the AT, PM me and if I can help you in the GA/NC/TN/VA area I will.

And I think this is what this website is all about.

Tim

KirkMcquest
03-08-2006, 14:06
File it anywhere you want.

I did my AT thru in 1983, have hiked the PCT, CDT, Benton Mackaye, numerous other trails in England, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand.

If you want to contribute advice to hikers on Whiteblaze I'll welcome your opinion. Otherwise, crap like you two guys are spewing is worthless.

Normally I just read but when you two think you can rag on someone like Lone Wolf, who contributes to this forum, and helps hikers near his home in Damascus, I get offended.

I'm not looking for a fight, I'll not respond, I'll continue to just read.

And, if you indeed put feet on the AT, PM me and if I can help you in the GA/NC/TN/VA area I will.

And I think this is what this website is all about.

Tim What are you talking about, "crap like you two are spewing", I assume you mean me?? can you give me a real example of what kind of crap I'm spewing?? Maybe I'm missing something here, but to me it seems like evrytime LS or myself voices an opinion there's some kind of problem. Your post is very nasty and personally offensive, what makes you think that's o.k?? All anyone has to do is read though the thread to see that L.Wolf and some others like yourself have made rude and inflammatory remarks with absolutely no provokation. And as far as your hiking resume goes, I don't see how that entitles you to be rude and arrogent. If this is the way you act in person, then if I could help you in the NY/NJ/Conn area, I'm not sure I will.

orangebug
03-08-2006, 16:12
...And as far as your hiking resume goes, I don't see how that entitles you to be rude and arrogent. If this is the way you act in person, then if I could help you in the NY/NJ/Conn area, I'm not sure I will.Nuff said. These guys are just trolls looking for cheap entertainment.

Let's leave them alone and see if they can go find some goat to eat.

longshank
03-08-2006, 16:29
File it anywhere you want.

I did my AT thru in 1983, have hiked the PCT, CDT, Benton Mackaye, numerous other trails in England, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand.

If you want to contribute advice to hikers on Whiteblaze I'll welcome your opinion. Otherwise, crap like you two guys are spewing is worthless.

Normally I just read but when you two think you can rag on someone like Lone Wolf, who contributes to this forum, and helps hikers near his home in Damascus, I get offended.

I'm not looking for a fight, I'll not respond, I'll continue to just read.

And, if you indeed put feet on the AT, PM me and if I can help you in the GA/NC/TN/VA area I will.

And I think this is what this website is all about.

Tim
So far I have not witnessed anyone spewing crap except Jack Tarlin, Lone wolf, you, orangebug, and mowgli. Nobody's asking you to be our best buddies, but the threads I've been posting ARE productive and useful to some, so if you have nothing constructive to add, if all you can seem to muster up is a mudslinging-swinging dick contest, Then save it. No one is interested in your insulting of those you feel inferior to your cronies and yourself. I really really really could not possibly care less about all of the hikes you completed, how experienced you are, and why that makes it O.K. for you guys to give us **** for no reason. Just can it, O.K.? I'm sick of saying the same things to you over and over, and I think everyone's sick of reading your outbursts as well.

Jack Tarlin
03-08-2006, 16:34
McQuest stated that everytime he and his pal express an opinion or make a comment here, "there's some kind of problem".

Gee, guy, glad you finally noticed! What a riveting discovery this must have been for you. You just don't miss a trick, no siree!

Oddly enough, most of the rest of us had discerned this since the day y'all arrived.

longshank
03-08-2006, 16:37
And as much as wolf might help people in damascus, he's a jerk on this site, and everyone knows it.

longshank
03-08-2006, 16:39
McQuest stated that everytime he and his pal express an opinion or make a comment here, "there's some kind of problem".

Gee, guy, glad you finally noticed! What a riveting discovery this must have been for you. You just don't miss a trick, no siree!

Oddly enough, most of the rest of us had discerned this since the day y'all arrived.
Yes, some kind of problem with the same 4 or 5 people. The rest of the members seem able to participate in mature discussion without insults and the pedantic belittling of the people they're conversing with. You should think about that in turn, Jack. Stop coming to me looking for trouble.

Lone Wolf
03-08-2006, 16:39
You're such an angry little boy longquestkirk. Don't be so jealous of us real hikers. Cyber boy.:D

longshank
03-08-2006, 16:40
Don't have

longshank
03-08-2006, 16:43
I'm not angry or jealous, and I don't feel the need to prove what a real hiker I am like you and your buds do. I'm just trying to enjoy the site and glean whatever usefull info I can from it and it's members. You're no more or less a real hiker than anyone on this site, so get over your self.

Jack Tarlin
03-08-2006, 16:56
Wolf is no more or less a real hiker than anyone else, son?

As far as I know, he's hiked something like 15,000 miles on the A.T., at least, which in my opinion gives him the right to speak with some authority on the subject. Next week, he'll be on Springer Mountain while you'll be sitting at a desk in your pajamas talking trash.

What's trail YOUR mileage, eh? Why don't you tell us, so we can compare for ourselves. Then we'll have a better idea who's the more real hiker, OK?

Why do I think I'm not going to get a direct answer to this simple question?

longshank
03-08-2006, 17:04
First of all, I'm not your son. Second of all, everyone on this site is a hiker or a hiker to be. Your not better than anyone because of the number of miles you hike, nor does that number give you liscence to insult and offend with impunity. Didn't your mother teach you any manners? What's so hard about not offending people? Why do you feel the need to look down on people? does it make you feel bigger? Because it certainly doesn't make you look that way, quite the contrary. You look like a small and petty man. No, you won't get a straight answer to your question, because I fundementally dissagree with where it comes from and who's issuing it. Don't try to bully me, Jack. It'll take more than the likes of you to make me stand down. Save your macho posturing for someone it actually works on. Jerk-off.

Jack Tarlin
03-08-2006, 17:15
THank you for your mature response.

Nothing more pitiful than a prodfessional Internet troll who can't take even a little of what he dishes out daily. Sheesh! And you come across as such a hard case....sure doesn't take much to push your little buttons, pal.

Oh. Since you didn't like the fact that it was ME asking you the question, Mr. Authority, howz about if someone else asks it?

Anyone else here curious about Mr. Longshanks' vast experience and personal knowledge of the A.T.?

Gee, why do I think he'll avoid answering even if someone else asks?

Final note to Mr. Longshanks: You're not being bullied. Someone was merely questioning your "authoritative" voice here, and was merely wondering about your qualifications for speaking with such authority. It was simple question.

If you're afraid to answer it, or are uncomfortable with how you'd look by providing an honest answer, that's your problem.

Tabasco
03-08-2006, 17:23
Longshank and McQuests threads are so much more interesting when you have them on IGNORE. It's kinda fun to imagine what they are typing when they have 4 or 5 posts in a row. Sometimes though I cheat and read when someone else quotes them in a reply. That's almost like yellow blazing though, kinda cheats me out of the whole experience.

longshank
03-08-2006, 17:24
Nobody else has bothered, because it makes no difference. I'm not trying to be an authority on anything. If you'd take the time to read the threads I've posted, you would see that They are questions posed to other hikers as to their opinions. And I'm not dishing anything out to anyone that hasn't started up with me. In fact I've gotten many productive and helpfull responses, beleive it or not. I'm not sure they are from REAL hikers, like you and wolf, or wanna-be's like the rest of us who couldn't possibly know anything according to you. Maybe someday we will be granted true hiker status by gods like you and wolf, but until then, we'll just have to make do with the experience we have. Gee, I wish I could be as cool as you.

longshank
03-08-2006, 17:27
Bottom line, Jack, if you don't like what I have to say, then don't participate in the discussion. Period. It's that simple. The only one trolling here is you.

Jack Tarlin
03-08-2006, 17:28
Actually, Shank, I've read HUNDREDS of your posts hereat Whiteblaze.

I just never bothered to answer them til recently because they were so consistently worthless.

Happily, I'll be hiking soon.

Enjoy your spring and summer on the Internet. I'm sure you'll have many wonderful outdoor experiences there.

longshank
03-08-2006, 17:31
Actually, Shank, I've read HUNDREDS of your posts hereat Whiteblaze.

I just never bothered to answer them til recently because they were so consistently worthless.

Happily, I'll be hiking soon.

Enjoy your spring and summer on the Internet. I'm sure you'll have many wonderful outdoor experiences there.
Then do us all a favor and continue not responding. It seems to me this site is better off without your personal critiques and overbearing, insulting stands that you take.

lobster
03-08-2006, 17:35
The only authority on this site is me!!!!!!!!!!

longshank
03-08-2006, 17:39
Lol!!!!!!!

dixicritter
03-08-2006, 17:51
<snip> Second of all, everyone on this site is a hiker or a hiker to be. <snip>

Sorry not exactly true. I'm neither, just married to a hiker. :D

I think that folks should settle down just a tad. I know that things were rough at first when Mr. Longshank and Mr. McQuest first arrived here, but they are trying to be civilized and behave. Folks let's not attack each other over something like words used on a BBS... Ok?

edit because I thought I was on the other thread...LOL silly me.

Jack Tarlin
03-08-2006, 17:55
Fine by me. I'd rather clean Miss Janet's kitchen anyway!

longshank
03-08-2006, 18:02
I'll believe it when I see it.

Tin Man
03-08-2006, 18:16
Note to newbies: Jack and L. Wolf have a way about them that can be easily misunderstood until you get to know them - mostly it is tongue-in-cheek. As far as espousing opinions that are mostly deriding others, please keep those to yourself - they are no more appropriate in a public forum as they are face-to-face, unless of course you are in the habit of telling total strangers to their face that what they are doing is ridiculous. :eek:

Happy Trails everyone! :cool:

longshank
03-08-2006, 18:27
Note to newbies: Jack and L. Wolf have a way about them that can be easily misunderstood until you get to know them - mostly it is tongue-in-cheek. As far as espousing opinions that are mostly deriding others, please keep those to yourself - they are no more appropriate in a public forum as they are face-to-face, unless of course you are in the habit of telling total strangers to their face that what they are doing is ridiculous. :eek:

Happy Trails everyone! :cool:
I concur, at least with the last half of your statement. The other half remains to be seen, as far as I'm concerned.

lbbrown
03-08-2006, 18:53
A conversation between Shank and McQuest:

The left nut talking to the right nut!!!!!!!:eek:

longshank
03-08-2006, 19:11
A conversation between Shank and McQuest:

The left nut talking to the right nut!!!!!!!:eek:
I guess that would make you the dick in the middle.

lbbrown
03-08-2006, 19:23
No, nothing could come between you two!:eek:

longshank
03-08-2006, 19:47
Gotcha good, dint I?

BlackCloud
03-09-2006, 08:43
everyone on this site is a hiker or a hiker to be.

Your not better than anyone because of the number of miles you hike, nor does that number give you liscence to insult and offend with impunity.

Or hiker wanna-bees. But yes, # of miles hiked does not = better hiker.

Someone please close this thread..........:cool:

hopefulhiker
03-09-2006, 08:54
Even after hiking the whole AT I still am just an amateur.....

Red Hat
03-09-2006, 10:40
Not really, Hopeful, but I remember when you were a real amateur! It makes me smile....

Trail Yeti
03-09-2006, 11:00
Did anyone else catch that Jack said "y'all"....sorry that struck me as really funny considering where he's from......

Klezmorim
03-09-2006, 11:04
Isn't it true that when a thru-hiker gets ready to summit Katahdin, they leave their big pack at the ranger station and borrow a day-pack for the final push? Doesn't this defeat the "you gotta carry that heavy pack ALL the way if you wanna be a REAL thru hiker"?

Also, here's an idea for Bighike.com: offer month-long slack-pack trips for those who need to acclimate to the trail. Some folks just can't get into real shape for an AT thru. A month of slack-packing mught be just the ticket. To illustrate: we just hiked from Woody to Neels and met a father-son duo from Michigan (Steve and Thorin - no trail-nicks, yet.) Their only complaint was that they couldn't get really good practice hikes at home since MI doesn't have the elevation gains/losses as the AT.

Maybe eah year you could offer a different month-long hike so that in 5/6 years a person could do the whole trail. This would be great for folks who just can't budget the time in a single year.

Whaddya think, NotYet? If this idea flies, do I get a commisssion? :D

Alligator
03-09-2006, 11:34
Did anyone else catch that Jack said "y'all"....sorry that struck me as really funny considering where he's from......
Yes, I saw it. He's also fond of "The War of Northern Aggression":sun .

Footslogger
03-09-2006, 11:42
[quote=Klezmorim]Isn't it true that when a thru-hiker gets ready to summit Katahdin, they leave their big pack at the ranger station and borrow a day-pack for the final push?
============================
That's purely a matter of choice. There are a handful of day packs on the porch of the ranger shack that can be used but it's totally up to the individual hiker.

'Slogger

Mags
03-09-2006, 13:39
Did anyone else catch that Jack said "y'all"....sorry that struck me as really funny considering where he's from......
I dated a woman from the deeper part of the south for a bit.

She and her family (rightfully so!), found my take on "Y'all" quite funny.

My "Rhodyelan" accent was a bit stronger six plus years ago than it is now. So take the ultimate in southern expressions and have it said someone who could come from central casting for "Northeast, Italian guy" and it was like "My Cousin Vinny" minus the gold jewlery and leathers. :D

OTOH, *my* family thought it was amusing as well when she said "Y'all".

Both sets of family thought we talked funny when we visited. :)

Klezmorim
03-09-2006, 14:03
Isn't it true that when a thru-hiker gets ready to summit Katahdin, they leave their big pack at the ranger station and borrow a day-pack for the final push? ============================

That's purely a matter of choice. There are a handful of day packs on the porch of the ranger shack that can be used but it's totally up to the individual hiker.

'Slogger
Thanks for the clarification, FS. Somewhere I thought I'd read that swapping out your main pack for a light day-pack loaner was mandatory on The Big "K."

NotYet
03-09-2006, 21:00
Hi Klezmorin,

It's quite possible that in the future we will offer pre-planned 1 month trips that hikers can sign up for, because that does seem like a service many people would appreciate. We do offer shorter trips than our 5-month thru-hike. Currently, these shorter hikes are all custom-designed for the hikers who hire us, and trips are for whatever duration that the hiker chooses.

In response to Skyline's comment on post #141, we realize there's not a huge market for the 5-month fully-supported thru-hike. In fact, we don't want it to involve more than 5 to 10 hikers in a year. We are, however, the type of people who like to work at making dreams turn into reality. In this case, we can work on ours while helping other's with theirs. I've really enjoyed building Foot Travel the past 2 and a half years, and hope that the coming years are just as interesting and fun.

I have appreciated all the the well-wishes that have been posted, and I also appreciate the well thought-out critiques.

Tin Man
03-10-2006, 00:03
Not Yet,

I was wandering if you gave consideration to the compatibility quotient? A thought for consideration, if you haven't already considered it, is to consider supporting 2 thru-hiking groups a half-day to a day apart. You could split your group in two at the beginning, or perhaps it may make sense later on. If that is practical and not too logistically challenging or perhaps a growth option, it might give you a chance to swap out incompatible hikers, should incompatibility become an issue as I guess it could easily become over the course of 5 months. Or perhaps your hikers might just want a change of personalities along the way sort of in the mold that the regular thru-hikers get along the way. I was thinking if you are varying the meal menu, you also may want to vary the personality menu. If you are serving lobster, let me know and I might sign up. :D

Skyline
03-10-2006, 10:51
If someone--let's say BigHike--really wants to make slackpacking a viable business, they need to develop a good marketing plan. Part of that is identifying your target market, and then identifying methods to reach them.

I don't believe the people who hang out on WB, TF, TP, etc. are the target market, and besides I don't believe anything like a whole or half thru-hike is a viable business model. Just my opinion, but I think most here would not be interested in doing this, and would actually be embarrassed to be known in the AT community--online or real world--as one of your customers.

I think your target market would more likely include the more physically active AARP crowd, or perhaps people with physical limitations that prevent them from carrying heavy packs or doing the big mile days some parts of the AT require, or perhaps the relatively well off financially. Not that we don't have those types of folks here, it's just that their numbers are too small to comprise a big enough universe of potential customers. There are "only" a few thousand members here as I understand it, and I bet there would only be a few hundred who fit the demographics I just portrayed. Out of that, how many are going to jump at what you're currently offering?

So I'll go back to an earlier post and suggest you devise a season's worth of trips, one or two per month, going from one end of a place like Shenandoah National Park to the other. Personally, if SNP, to make it a better experience I'd do it using a combination of the AT and side trails rather than just the AT...and I could suggest a specific route if you're interested.

The ideal markets I described above do exist in large numbers within a four-hour drive of SNP, and there is niche market media available to reach them relatively economically. You need to reach a universe of at least hundreds of thousands of people in your target market(s) to make this an ongoing success, building "brand" awareness and developing word-of-mouth good rep. This region is so close to major population centers that it's possible to do so. You'd be selling a dream, and a method of living that dream, to specific groups of people close by that within their ranks have enough people who are predictably susceptible.

Concentrating on one geographic region lets you maximize your ad dollars, and repeating the same trip all season--or developing several different trips within the same area--makes it user-friendly. It would also help you make your business be more efficient.

If the current business plans don't work out, get in touch with me via the e-mail link on this site and I would be happy to get more specific to point you in the right directions--demographic markets, media, hike routes, and navigating NPS regs. The key would be to devote a large enough budget for advertising and promotion in the first couple years, and to be prepared to do lots of free interviews, talk shows, etc. This kind of local business offering would be an assignment editor's dream because it is so unique; you could get free publicity by sending out a professional looking media kit to newspapers, radio, TV, etc.

Ponder this: If you could survive and maybe prosper with five to 10 thru-hikers per year ($50,000 to $100,000) how about 100 hikers throughout a season on 10 to 14-day itineraries paying $900 each? I think that's achievable in the first year or two--and would grow from there. And wouldn't it be great, logistically and financially, to be headquartered in one place instead of living out of a van for six months between Springer and Katahdin?

Good luck no matter how it goes. I think expanding the woods to long distance hiking--albeit slackpacking--to people who ordinarily wouldn't or couldn't avail themselves, is a great thing to do. I just don't think your current business model is viable.

NotYet
03-11-2006, 10:44
Hi Tin Man,

Your idea of spacing out the group is very interesting. It would be a lot tougher logistically, and we'd need additional resources. At this time, we won't be able to do that, but something to think about for later...

As for lobster, mmmmmm gooood! You'd have to show me the best way to prepare it, though!:)

Hi Skyline,

Thanks for your comments. We would love to offer what you are describing. We operate out of NC, so our custom-designed trips tend to be on trails that are in the Pisgah and Nantahala National Forests, on trails that we are very familiar with. We can offer custom-designed trips now, because our schedules can be worked around them fairly well. Scheduling numerous month-long trips (or trips of varying lengths) that hikers sign-up for is one of our goals as we build Foot Travel. Please stay in touch, I'd love to hear your ideas!

lobster
03-11-2006, 12:20
If you could get 10 hikers, I would think your profit margin would be pretty good. You really only have food, fuel, a few other incidentals(vehicle repair, etc.), and your time invested. You would have a gross of a little over $100,000 to start with.

10 hikers with 3 meals per day = 30 meals

180 days with 30 meals = 5400 meals

Even if every meal cost $10 that would be $54,000 with say another $5,000 for fuel and other stuff. So max = $59,000. Profit = $41,000.

But more likely, you could eat like a king for at most $5 per meal per person so $27,000 for food and that same extra $5,000 for everything else and you have just $32,000. Nice profit of $68,000 for 6 months on the road and in the woods.

longshank
03-11-2006, 12:22
Looks like you might have some up and coming competition here on WB....Guys, don't give them ALL your good ideas...

lobster
03-11-2006, 12:24
Forgot about feeding you two(owners) in my rough calculations, but I exaggerated the expenses so likely around the same profit margin.

What will the menu look like?

lobster
03-11-2006, 12:38
How do you think the compatibility of the hiking group will work out? It's not like you will have a big sample size to weed through and pick the group that you think will be able to hike about the same speed together. When somebody offers you that $10,000 I don't see you turning it down. Thoughts on anything related to compatibility of the group as far as age, hiking speed, gender, personality, etc.?

Sly
03-11-2006, 21:03
But more likely, you could eat like a king for at most $5 per meal per person so $27,000 for food and that same extra $5,000 for everything else and you have just $32,000. Nice profit of $68,000 for 6 months on the road and in the woods.

It's America and you're forgeting about insurance, the hostel/motel stays, wear and tear on the vehicle and the price of fuel etc. They'd be driving from gap to gap which can easily triple the trail miles. Times $2.50 equals $15,000. Plus, it's not likely to fit 10 hikers, with gear, in a single van. Right now your profit is reduced $20,000 if you can find 10 hikers.

Skyline
03-11-2006, 22:59
It's America and you're forgeting about insurance, the hostel/motel stays, wear and tear on the vehicle and the price of fuel etc. They'd be driving from gap to gap which can easily triple the trail miles. Times $2.50 equals $15,000. Plus, it's not likely to fit 10 hikers, with gear, in a single van. Right now your profit is reduced $20,000 if you can find 10 hikers.


That's right, you've always got to figure in the cost of buying or leasing the NEXT vehicle. Oooops, I think I just saw some red ink go by.

NotYet
03-12-2006, 15:58
We set our price for the thru-hike based on costs in 2002. Of course, prices for food and gas have increased significantly since then. Our other main costs, as Sly pointed out, are lodging while in town, vehicles, maintenance, permits and insurance (which is very expensive). Though it may sound ridiculous, we don't anticipate a profit for the 2007 trip. We do plan to bring in enough to pay for the trip, cover our home costs for the 5 months that we'll be away and hopefully earn a few thousand dollars each. With 5 hikers we will likely lose money, with 10 we will likely make a profit.

We have given quite a bit of thought to the compatibility issue. In regards to hiking pace, potential hikers will be given information as to what type of mileage to expect, and we are planning to help each hiker design a good program to help him or her prepare physically. Also, the hikers will need to have their physicians sign off on the trip. During the hike, the hikers will have all day to get to the meeting place; so they don't have to hike together. As for personality issues, we will deal with those directly and honestly when they arise...that's just part of life!

Regarding the meals, I mentioned earlier that they will be simple but hearty. On the resource page of our website there is a pdf with some examples of meals that will be prepared. The list on the pdf does not include everything that we'll make, but it gives you a good, general idea of what you could expect.

lobster
03-12-2006, 17:59
Why is insurance so high?? Can't they sign some sort of form releasing you from responsibility. I suppose they could die in a crash in your vehicle or die from food poisoning, but what else would you be liable for that would make insurance so high?

Just Jeff
03-12-2006, 18:23
...cover our home costs for the 5 months that we'll be away...

Then don't forget to factor in the appreciation for your home during those five months...that'll add quite a bit to your finances (long term, at least).

Sly
03-12-2006, 18:35
Why is insurance so high?? Can't they sign some sort of form releasing you from responsibility. I suppose they could die in a crash in your vehicle or die from food poisoning, but what else would you be liable for that would make insurance so high?

I'll say it for them. MYOFB.

lobster
03-13-2006, 01:19
Sly,

Go back under your rock!!!

longshank
03-13-2006, 02:24
Lobster has a valid point... They should be required to sign a release or waiver before participating. When you enroll in a martial arts class, you are required to sign a release relieving the school of any responsibility for injuries incurred. The same could and SHOULD be appleid to any situation wherein the client is paying for services related to an activity which could be potentially dangerous physically. In today's litigious society, it is a crucial measure.

NotYet
03-13-2006, 10:49
All of our clients must sign a waiver to hike with us. That is actually a requirement of the insurance company (though we would have a waiver regardless). But that has nothing to do with the cost of insurance.

Our insurance is very high because there is little competition for insuring a company such as ours. We've found that insurance companies tend to have very specialized policies. The companies that will insure the outdoor activities don't want us to drive our clients. The companies that will insure us for driving our clients don't insure outdoor activities. Also, the companies only operate in certain states. None of the companies will allow us to carry insurance from another company. At least, this is how it's all been explained to us. Of course, we must carry insurance because it is a requirement for the special use permits. I think that we all realize that insurance for everything is becoming more and more expensive partly because the insurance companies are terrified of lawsuits, regardless of the merit of any particular lawsuit.

We are always on the lookout for a better policy, but so far we've had little luck.

lobster
03-13-2006, 12:31
I assume the "special use" applies to your business being conducted on the AT, a federal trail? Thus, if you weren't forced to have insurance, the people under your care might end up suing the government if something went wrong.

Concerning waivers, I wonder how often they hold up in court. In my opinion, if a person signs one and then sues anyways, the judge ought to dismiss the suit immediately, but judges do some wacky things nowadays.

Tin Man
03-13-2006, 13:12
I assume the "special use" applies to your business being conducted on the AT, a federal trail? Thus, if you weren't forced to have insurance, the people under your care might end up suing the government if something went wrong.

Concerning waivers, I wonder how often they hold up in court. In my opinion, if a person signs one and then sues anyways, the judge ought to dismiss the suit immediately, but judges do some wacky things nowadays.

You may want to consider leaving the insurance and legal discussion to insurance and legal experts, unless "forced to have insurance" and "judges do some wacky things" is some new technical jargon that I am not familiar with.

Alligator
03-13-2006, 21:33
You may want to consider leaving the insurance and legal discussion to insurance and legal experts, unless "forced to have insurance" and "judges do some wacky things" is some new technical jargon that I am not familiar with.
It's a new legal precedent, properly termed as whackoeus jacksonius:-? .