mice climbing the bear cables

[Candr01]

Hey Hey,

I just finished a short, solo (my first - woot!), section hike from Woody Gap to Unicoi Gap in GA. Whilst camping at Low Gap Shelter mice ate through my food bag EVEN.THOUGH it was correctly hung up on the bear cables. Funnily enough, there are 2 sets of cables and I noticed there was a piece missing from one of them (one of the spinny-noodle-things between the tree and the metal disk on the highest cable) and moved my bag to the other set that looked intact. And still there was a hole in the morning, and gnawings through my ziploc bag and into my breakfast cereal. The cheek!

So, 2 questions:
1) Fortunately it was my last day and it didn't matter if I didn't eat what I had planned for b'fast as I had plenty of other food to choose from. But it made me think: if this was day 1 of a 5 day hike, could I still eat the food that a mouse had nibbled at? Or does the whole lot need throwing away? What mousey-diseases would I be risking if I did eat the food? Or maybe I'm overthinking this?

2) What are we supposed to do when the mini-bears learn to outsmart the cables? Are bear canisters and kevlar bags (like Ursack Minor) our only option?

[Mouser999]

Try a GrubPack to keep the little critters out. Stainless steel bag

[peakbagger]

BTW - Flying squirrels have been known to swoop down on a food bag properly hung and gnaw a hole through the bag. I have watched one long ago raiding my food bag one late evening. The only option is stainless steel bag. The brand that I have heard of before but no experience with is a "Rat Sack"

The surprising thing was how accurate the squirrel was, it drilled directly down to the spot with the peanuts.

[martinb]

I carry a bareboxer can, 1.6 lbs. Nothing gets into it.

[Strategic]

Unless there's a proper bear box, I always hang my food using my own resources. The key to keeping the mice out is two-fold. First, be sure you hang properly, with the bag well away from trunk or limbs in the tree, so that the mouse can't just leap onto the bag (mice can jump a surprisingly long way for their size.) Second, use a line that the mice can't really climb down. That generally means very thin dyneema line, because it makes it hard for them to grip (small line diameter) and it is very slick. I've done this for years now and never had the mice raid my food, even when others at the same site have.

[chknfngrs]

I started carrying a BV450 to eliminate this.

[Red Sky]

Hey Hey,

I just finished a short, solo (my first - woot!), section hike from Woody Gap to Unicoi Gap in GA. Whilst camping at Low Gap Shelter mice ate through my food bag EVEN.THOUGH it was correctly hung up on the bear cables. Funnily enough, there are 2 sets of cables and I noticed there was a piece missing from one of them (one of the spinny-noodle-things between the tree and the metal disk on the highest cable) and moved my bag to the other set that looked intact. And still there was a hole in the morning, and gnawings through my ziploc bag and into my breakfast cereal. The cheek!

So, 2 questions:
1) Fortunately it was my last day and it didn't matter if I didn't eat what I had planned for b'fast as I had plenty of other food to choose from. But it made me think: if this was day 1 of a 5 day hike, could I still eat the food that a mouse had nibbled at? Or does the whole lot need throwing away? What mousey-diseases would I be risking if I did eat the food? Or maybe I'm overthinking this?

2) What are we supposed to do when the mini-bears learn to outsmart the cables? Are bear canisters and kevlar bags (like Ursack Minor) our only option?

I stayed there last year and this happened to another hiker's properly hung food bag. Those mice are really clever! They didn't touch my Ursack, but this guys lightweight bag was empty when he got up the next morning, and there was a pile of paper, wrappers and empty zip lock bags on the ground underneath. This is also where I decided to stay in an AT shelter for the first time, and these little guys kept everyone up till about 3:00 AM. One even tried to crawl in the bag with me!

[Dan Roper]

Low Gap is the only place in nearly 600 miles that I've had mice in my pack. There must be super-mice at that location.

[daddytwosticks]

I witnessed a flying squirrel on the bear bag cables at that very shelter one dark evening while heading away to take a pee. This was well over a decade ago. I have been using an Ursak Minor and have had zero issues with vermin getting my grub. :)

[peakbagger]

BTW, most folks would not be able to tell the difference between a flying squirrel gnawing a hole in food bag from a mouse doing the same. Mice are acrobatic but still suspect that food hanging from a bear cable is more prone to flying squirrels or up north a pine marten (the scourge of the Adirondack backcountry and now moving into the whites shelter sites). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_marten

I was at the Garfield shelter in the whites on July 4th and the caretaker commented that a pine marten had moved into the site. He said the marten was taking care of the shelter mouse population. He said several of the other huts also had them.

[Deadeye]

When I don't want to carry my Bear Vault, I pack my food in a plastic pretzel jug. Waterproof, bug proof, and mouse proof.

[LazyLightning]

BTW - Flying squirrels have been known to swoop down on a food bag properly hung and gnaw a hole through the bag. I have watched one long ago raiding my food bag one late evening. The only option is stainless steel bag. The brand that I have heard of before but no experience with is a "Rat Sack"

The surprising thing was how accurate the squirrel was, it drilled directly down to the spot with the peanuts.

Exactly why I'll be switching to a bear canister... I had no problems with hanging my food bag all the way until those flying Squirrels in ME (I'm sure they are elsewhere to). One night I thought maybe something could of jumped from a branch even though it shocked me. So I did my next 2 hangs extra good, very high and in mid air... 2 nights after the first whole in my bag I lower my bear hang and there's a damn flying squirrel still on there - I had to kick my food bag to get it to jump off.

I haven't gotten to a bear canister yet but I only got to camp 2 nights since finishing the AT (ain't that depressing...), It will be a permanent part of my set up as soon as I find what I want. (I carry a lot of food on longer trips so I gotta get the right canister and pack for my hiking style).

...oh one more thing, like you mentioned they know exactly where to go... chewed right into my granola from the outside of my food bag both times!

[Dogwood]

I witnessed a flying squirrel on the bear bag cables at that very shelter one dark evening while heading away to take a pee. This was well over a decade ago. I have been using an Ursak Minor and have had zero issues with vermin getting my grub. :)


BTW, most folks would not be able to tell the difference between a flying squirrel gnawing a hole in food bag from a mouse doing the same. Mice are acrobatic but still suspect that food hanging from a bear cable is more prone to flying squirrels or up north a pine marten (the scourge of the Adirondack backcountry and now moving into the whites shelter sites). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_marten

I was at the Garfield shelter in the whites on July 4th and the caretaker commented that a pine marten had moved into the site. He said the marten was taking care of the shelter mouse population. He said several of the other huts also had them.

Same. Also in one of the AT GSMNP Shelters. I've seen bats on hung food bags on the AT too.

Doesn't Low Gap Shelter have metal plates or pie plates on the horizontal wires or verticals.

[FreeGoldRush]

Animals seem to learn where the food is every night. Not putting it in those locations is one solution. I’m not suggesting that bear cables are a bad idea, but a properly hung food bag away from that area is best IMO. If no good branches are present for this, then don’t rely on a bad hang.

[chknfngrs]

That’s why the bear can rules. No bad hangs, ever.

[Old Hillwalker]

My old, but nearly pristine Ursack is listed on the For Sale section.

[Elaikases]

BTW - Flying squirrels have been known to swoop down on a food bag properly hung and gnaw a hole through the bag. I have watched one long ago raiding my food bag one late evening. The only option is stainless steel bag. The brand that I have heard of before but no experience with is a "Rat Sack"

The surprising thing was how accurate the squirrel was, it drilled directly down to the spot with the peanuts.

I've used a Rat Sack. For the volume it is lighter than many other options, but the things are large. We have two (my wife has one as well) but haven't used them for the past 700 miles or so of our backpacking. I've thought of using them though.

[blw2]

just a friendly re-direct.... I noticed that nobody so far has answered the OP's original question number 1... which was basically "do I eat the mouse's leftovers or are there some diseases I might catch by swapping spit with the little bugger?"
..../no offense intended to posters though....the question number 2 discussion about solutions is of course good too. I only posted because I am also interested in the group's opinion of number 1.

[Traillium]

"do I eat the mouse's leftovers or are there some diseases I might catch by swapping spit with the little bugger?"

Can you cook it, i.e., heat it and keep it above sanitization temperature for long enough to kill germs? If yes, and if really hungry, perhaps I’d eat it. Otherwise, what’s a bit of hunger?

I’d also be wanting to know that the little bugger hadn’t emptied his bladder and bowel in my food …


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[daddytwosticks]

I've used a Rat Sack. For the volume it is lighter than many other options, but the things are large. We have two (my wife has one as well) but haven't used them for the past 700 miles or so of our backpacking. I've thought of using them though.

I too used a Rat Sack years before I went with the Ursak Minor. Some of the chain links became broken/loose on it. Got a puncture in my air mattress from stuffing it next to the RS in my pack. :(

[trailmercury]

Can you cook it, i.e., heat it and keep it above sanitization temperature for long enough to kill germs? If yes, and if really hungry, perhaps I’d eat it. Otherwise, what’s a bit of hunger?

I’d also be wanting to know that the little bugger hadn’t emptied his bladder and bowel in my food …




Mice pee and poop constantly, so there is likely some residue even if not immediately apparent.

[Leo L.]

Most germs and viruses do not survive a long time outside of their host, so while it's disgusting, IMHO its safe to eat food that got gnawed on by mice a few days later.

[peakbagger]

Most germs and viruses do not survive a long time outside of their host, so while it's disgusting, IMHO its safe to eat food that got gnawed on by mice a few days later.

This is not correct in the US or Europe

https://www.cdc.gov/hantavirus/index.html

Just sweeping a shelter out and being exposed to the dust can expose someone to Hantavirus.

[Leo L.]

I don't know much about hantavirus, but a quick onlinesearch indicates, that the virus can stay infectious for several days, and the most likely way of infection is breathing it in.
So if you wait for a few days until you eat the possibly infected food, you may be quite safe because either most or all of the virus' in your food had died (sorry, do virus really die? Or just go inactive?), and then ist not clear whether you can get infected at all by eating virus-infected food? Maybe your stomac acids would kill the virus anyway?
And, as a funny side fact, most likely you will eat your clean food first anyway, until you out of sheer hunger go to the mouse food.

Im no MD, but just memorized the rule of thumb, that the more dangerous a germ or virus is, the less likely it will survive outside of ist host and outside very specific conditions.

[Traveler]

Most germs and viruses do not survive a long time outside of their host, so while it's disgusting, IMHO its safe to eat food that got gnawed on by mice a few days later.

Unfortunately science trumps opinion in this case. Depending on conditions, the Hantavirus and Plague can remain active from 7 to 90 days (especially when protected from sunlight) and can be carried through the air via dust from wind or sweeping and contracted by breathing it in long after the mouse is gone.

As far as eating food that rodents have gnawed on, you may want to consider the Leptospirosis virus which is found in rodent urine and can remain active for 180 days after release can be ingested. Additionally, it can be absorbed through the skin and casual contact, meaning the wrapper you handle to eat food the mouse has enjoyed first may carry the virus that enters your body through minor cuts on fingers.

These are a few of the unseeable hazards that exist in nature, along with norovirus problems wherever people gather.

[Leo L.]

OK, let me do a rewording:
If the mice had nibbed at the corner of a chocolate bar, I'd break the corner off and eat the rest.
If mice had been inside a bag of gorp and all over it, I'd most likely thrash the whole bag.
Honestly, I'm not so much afraid of some rare virus, but find it disgusting generally.
The way I lived my childhood in a rural setting was full of animals of all kinds (mice being the least horrible ones), and dirt, and all possible infections.
We still survived.

But then, I've never been at an AT shelter and have no idea how dangerous the local mice are.
And yes, the one time I was at an US campground where hanging the food on designated steel racks was mandatory (Phantom Ranch, Grand Canyon), in the night we watched some kind of huge squirrel jumping (flying?) onto our properly hung food bag and eating our Mars bars.

[Candr01]

Does cuben fiber help thwart the buggers? Wondering if a zpacks food bag might help

[Leo L.]

Not on the AT, but whenever we had mice encounters, it was on some heavily used camspot, And they gnawed through anything that was in their way. Even through the rim of a Tupperware box.

[HooKooDooKu]

I now always hang my food bag under what others call a mouse mobile... serves the same purpose as the poster that says they hang with thin cable the mice can't climb. In this case, the can (or other object) prevents the mouse from climbing down the string to get to the food.
Since I started using one, I have not had any mouse damage... but I have not been doing it long enough to know if it works or I'm just lucky.

Another trick that worked (until the mouse was able to access my bag from a neighboring hang) was to inflate the food bag with air. The mouse could climb down the cables onto the top of my bag, but then could not climb down the side of the bag to get to the food at the bottom. I know this worked to some degree because the first time I tried it at a campsite I was by myself, in the morning,I found mouse poop on top of my bag but the bag itself was undamaged.

[Berserker]

As others have stated I have grown weary of doing hangs and worrying about my food, so I have gone to a bear canister full time. The weight penalty is easily negated by the piece of mind I have when I go to sleep every night. Plus it makes a dang fine camp chair.

To answer the question about eating the food after a mouse has breached it, this is not based on anything medical but I wouldn't eat it unless it was necessary (i.e. it was the only food I had left)...and even then I'd maybe not eat it if my trip was close to being over.

[daddytwosticks]

Had a mouse get into a food bag many, many years ago. Skipped eating the everything bagel that morning. Couldn't tell the difference between the poppy seeds and mouse poo...