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Planning 10 days on PCT, Section K, Rainy Pass to Stevens Pass, WA (no resupply at Stehekin). Our packs are dialed in at 20 lbs, but 10 x 2 lbs/day food doubles each of our pack weight. Over 26,000 ft of climb.
Wondering if we can cut the food down to one lb/person/day. We eat low carb/keto, no grains, sugar, or seed oils. Planning mainly meat, cheese, nuts, protein powder, coconut, some dehydrated vegetables but no fruit. I monitor blood sugar and avoid anything that spikes glucose/insulin. Sorry, Little Debbie.
Wondering how others approach this issue.
Pemmican is keto friendly and calorie dense, worked for native Americans. Sounds like you could go stoveless, so that’s some weight saved. I’m just armchair hiking when it comes to 10 day food hauls though, my longest was 7 days.
Good luck to you!
Feral Bill
07-18-2019, 22:57
Try you planned diet to a couple of days at home.
I would imagine MH and other brands of freeze dried does not fit your diet well(I dont know much about Keto) but I did a 10 day last year and due to a packing mixup I accidentally packed the food I stockpile at home. So with a 40lb pack weight I ended up coming home with 7 days of food. That includes 5 packages of Raspberry crumble deserts( sounds like you'll avoid eating that :D). Oh and 2 18oz containers of Gatorade powder.
So even a 2 week outing can be done under 40lb(I'm no where near UL gear wise and pack the kitchen sink) with off the shelf food.
In the way of saving weight I could have NOT carried extra fuel to heat shower water(gee, probably could ditch the 4oz for the shower too), a 6L Dromedary, trail runners and low cut boots, 2 hats, a med kit suitable for a hospital. 3 kinds of insect spray, spare AAA batteries and I'm sure more that does not come to mind. Everything fits easily in my Exos 58 so not even a very lightweight pack is needed to stay under 40lb.
Even though I only weigh 160 I dont mind carrying 40lbs, I think my experience shows a 10 day outing can be done at not much over 30lbs but I like my comforts etc too much to even try to get that light.
Heliotrope
07-19-2019, 17:20
Planning 10 days on PCT, Section K, Rainy Pass to Stevens Pass, WA (no resupply at Stehekin). Our packs are dialed in at 20 lbs, but 10 x 2 lbs/day food doubles each of our pack weight. Over 26,000 ft of climb.
Wondering if we can cut the food down to one lb/person/day. We eat low carb/keto, no grains, sugar, or seed oils. Planning mainly meat, cheese, nuts, protein powder, coconut, some dehydrated vegetables but no fruit. I monitor blood sugar and avoid anything that spikes glucose/insulin. Sorry, Little Debbie.
Wondering how others approach this issue.
Can you reduce base weight?/Shorten the time for this section? I’ve been in this section but I haven’t hiked the whole PCT through it. Regarding food not sure I would go that low (1 lb per day) unless I had some extra fat to lose. I try to eat mostly keto on the trail but I’m less strict than at home. Perhaps bring the fat content up higher?. Almond butter is around 180 calories per ounce or roughly 2800 cal per pound.
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garlic08
07-19-2019, 18:01
I've changed my food carry planning from pounds per day to miles per pound. I pack one pound per ten or twelve miles. That section is about 120 miles. I'd pack about ten pounds for that. (I carried less than eight pounds into the hundred mile wilderness on the AT, for instance.) And since I normally hike twenty mile days on average, that happens to work out to about two pounds per day. But if I hike more, I eat more and if I hike a shorter day I eat less.
A ten day hike at 12 miles per day gets into a range where my formula may not work. You still burn calories staring in wonder at vistas. One pound per day may not work. But you do have the option of emergency resupply at Stehekin.
LazyLightning
07-19-2019, 19:04
I loved going 10 days with no resupply but my pack was over 50 when I supplied for that. No skimping on food, eat the heaviest stuff first and the pack feels better every morning! I also averaged about 10 miles a day and made sure I had the food to eat anytime my stomach was calling for it. I did a bit of the dehydrated meals but also tried to keep a lot of healthier stuff in there, the bars, lots of dehydrated fruit and I wasn't afraid to pack about 4-5LBs of homemade granola back out on the trail with me every time... not that I expect many people to relate (there are some hikers that share my style though ; )
Thanks so much for the thoughtful replies. There is so much experience we can draw from on this list!
The interplay of variables (food weight, caloric density, bulk, gear weight, mileage, trail difficulty, duration, hiker age and fitness) is interesting and challenging to evaluate. All hikers deal with these one way or another. It's an interesting challenge to try to max out days while minimizing weight. I would avoid going really ultralight because of safety on this remote, difficult section. We carry extra clothes, food, first aid, and a ham radio. I have lots of ultralight packs but I'm buying an Osprey Atmos 65 because of the beefier suspension system. We have a food dehydrator and I think it will be useful for preparing all sorts of foods, mainly jerky and vegetables but a few fruits and berries. We'll see what we can put together for a day's food, and try it at home first, but the beauty of keto is that we can easily burn our body fat for energy--this is our ace in the hole IMO.
colorado_rob
07-20-2019, 09:23
Just another data point, I've done a 19 and a 17 day no-resupply hike. On the first, I carried way too much food, got smarter for the second, backed off to 1.5 pounds/day and still brought a small amount of food back. It of course does depend on body weight, but for my 180 (well, 185 right now...) body, 1.5 per day is enough. And I do carry some low calorie density carbs/sugars; if it were strictly fats and proteins, I could probably get by for less.
It might be a nit, but we also refine for first and last day on the trail, meaning we pig out for breakfast the first day before starting the hike, so that day might carry only 1 pound, same on last day, only breakfast and a bit of trail food carried, anticipating pigging out after stopping., so maybe 1 pound that last day.
So, if I were doing a 10-day hike, it would be 1 + 8x1.5 + 1 = 14 pounds of food starting out. Again, just another data point.
That "2 pounds per day" generic "recommendation" that floats around out there is very conservative, except for larger folks, and out-of-shape folks (not implying larger folks are out of shape!) who burn more calories.
Good points, Rob. Yes we are smaller people, my wife 108 and me 175, so I like your 1.5 lb number per person per day. And as older 60ish people we don't eat a lot, although she eats as much as I do. Yes days 1 and 10 can be light packing, like 50%.
BTW I just dried two pounds of frozen vegetables and it went down to 158 grams. That's losing 84% water. We use this as a base for dinners, adding meat, dry cheese, and olive oil. We use a pot cozy to save fuel. So consider one full snack bag of dried veggies (4 oz) plus 1.0 oz dry parmesean cheese, plus 2.6 oz foil tuna packet, plus 1 oz oil = 8.6 oz for dinner for 2 people. At 1.5 lbs/person that leaves ~40 oz of food for other meals. Inasmuch as that is mostly dried food, this starts to look doable.
Oh, we're making what I call "elephant ear beef jerky" buying thin-sliced carne asada steak at Walmart and putting that right in the dehydrator (spiced with salt, pepper, tumeric, garlic). Comes out as thin and light as a piece of cardboard, but pretty yummy.
Also, we're not the butter chugger type of keto. Our doctor recommends low carb, low fat, higher protein (lots of steak and eggs). We are very active and have great success with this woe, although it's not for everybody. I expect we will lose a few pounds during this hike, that always seems to happen.
Heliotrope
07-20-2019, 17:59
Good points, Rob. Yes we are smaller people, my wife 108 and me 175, so I like your 1.5 lb number per person per day. And as older 60ish people we don't eat a lot, although she eats as much as I do. Yes days 1 and 10 can be light packing, like 50%.
BTW I just dried two pounds of frozen vegetables and it went down to 158 grams. That's losing 84% water. We use this as a base for dinners, adding meat, dry cheese, and olive oil. We use a pot cozy to save fuel. So consider one full snack bag of dried veggies (4 oz) plus 1.0 oz dry parmesean cheese, plus 2.6 oz foil tuna packet, plus 1 oz oil = 8.6 oz for dinner for 2 people. At 1.5 lbs/person that leaves ~40 oz of food for other meals. Inasmuch as that is mostly dried food, this starts to look doable.
Oh, we're making what I call "elephant ear beef jerky" buying thin-sliced carne asada steak at Walmart and putting that right in the dehydrator (spiced with salt, pepper, tumeric, garlic). Comes out as thin and light as a piece of cardboard, but pretty yummy.
Also, we're not the butter chugger type of keto. Our doctor recommends low carb, low fat, higher protein (lots of steak and eggs). We are very active and have great success with this woe, although it's not for everybody. I expect we will lose a few pounds during this hike, that always seems to happen.
Just curious. Not sure you can really be keto without enough fat. You say you eat low fat but steak and eggs fits into a high protein and high fat category. Do you mean you are trying for healthy fats? Glad it’s working for you.
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i also (160 point guy) regularly carry 1 1/2 pounds per day...
No, there's no reason to eat high fat to be keto. It's all about carb restriction. And high protein won't throw you out. Misconceptions.
Low fat, low carb, moderate high protein is the ticket (check my doctor's site): http://burnfatnotsugar.com
Keep in mind that the type of diet you're talking about is for the modern human. You're doing a more primal activity. What works for you at home may not work as well on the trail. Probably does at first as it satisfies what you're used to, but later as you body needs easy burning fuel, you may find yourself not feeling as well when your body starts burning "whatever it can". I'd go with what you have, and I'd take pasta as a supplement in much the way you might take a lot of ibuprofen along the way - use as needed.
Understood. But primal = keto. Modern life = processed food, carbage, obesity, and disease.
We've done numerous hikes quite happily on low carb. No hunger, no energy lapse after eating because of tanking blood sugar. You can have my share of pasta, I'll carry an extra serving of jerky. I suggest you might do like I'm doing, and wear a continuous glucose monitor for a few weeks to see what effect your food has on your blood glucose. You might be shocked, your brain and your body certainly are shocked (and damaged). There are a few people (many young people) who can metabolize a lot of carbs, but I'm not one of them.
But that's not what my post is about! Sorry for the diversion. Developing some useful food hacks to carry 10 days food using dried products like almond butter, cheddar cheese, and eggs. More later.
swjohnsey
07-22-2019, 08:03
A pound of olive oil will get you around 2,000 calories.
nsherry61
07-22-2019, 11:15
This thread is an interesting exercise in over analyzing something that is fundamentally NOT an analytical problem.
1) Managing your diet with analytics can be super powerful and informative AFTER you've gone out and "measured" your body's response (weight loss/gain, general feeling of health, etc) to your proposed diet in your proposed setting.
2) You can almost surely complete your proposed hike on less than a pound of food a day and could probably eat more than 2 lbs of food a day. And, you could make the same argument about a proposed number of calories per day. And, most of us could also make a similar argument about the types of food we eat (some people successfully hike on pop tarts and others do it as vegans, etc).
3) If you have analysed past trips you may know how much of what you need to eat to maintain body weight and a good mental state. Your past data is much more informative than all the advice on these forums.
4) I make my meal plans based on what I think I will want to eat each day and what I think my body needs. As the trip progresses and/or I complete the trip, I assess my food successes and failure and tune accordingly. I've never used food weight or detailed nutritional analysis to build my menus, BUT, I have used weight and nutritional analysis to tune my menu to save some weight. I don't plan on 1.5 lbs per day. BUT, I do try and tune my menu to work toward that number as a guide. For what it's worth, I ate more as a younger leaner 165 lb person than I do now as an older 215 lb person.
5) In the end, when you're packing for a 10 day trip, five pounds of food, one way or the other (40 vs. 45 lbs) isn't going to make or break the enjoyment of your trip. Don't kill yourself over this one. Be reasonable. If you can save five pounds, or even one, do it. But, don't do it at the expense of eating what will make your trip as enjoyable as possible.
6) Speaking from experience, it's really fun seeing and feeling how small and light your pack gets as you eat through you load on an extended trip. In that regard, eating through two or three days of food just doesn't provide the same joy as eating through two weeks of food. So maybe you should carry even more food weight and volume so you get even more joy as you eat it.
Have a really great trip and have lots of fun!
Hikingjim
07-22-2019, 11:49
I think only your experience can inform you here. I'm 6'4/210 and 2 lbs/day is fairly accurate, but around 1.5 - 1.7 lbs can work as well.
My wife would kick my ass if I packed her 1 lb/day.
Go with what you think you normally need/prefer, especially since your base weight is already a bit up there and you're going with a pack that handles it fairly well. Regular snacks boost morale for us too, and to feel like I'm skimping or rationing too much doesn't work well
colorado_rob
07-22-2019, 12:00
This thread is an interesting exercise in over analyzing something that is fundamentally NOT an analytical problem.
1) Managing your diet with analytics can be super powerful and informative AFTER you've gone out and "measured" your body's response (weight loss/gain, general feeling of health, etc) to your proposed diet in your proposed setting.
2) You can almost surely complete your proposed hike on less than a pound of food a day and could probably eat more than 2 lbs of food a day. And, you could make the same argument about a proposed number of calories per day. And, most of us could also make a similar argument about the types of food we eat (some people successfully hike on pop tarts and others do it as vegans, etc).
3) If you have analysed past trips you may know how much of what you need to eat to maintain body weight and a good mental state. Your past data is much more informative than all the advice on these forums.
4) I make my meal plans based on what I think I will want to eat each day and what I think my body needs. As the trip progresses and/or I complete the trip, I assess my food successes and failure and tune accordingly. I've never used food weight or detailed nutritional analysis to build my menus, BUT, I have used weight and nutritional analysis to tune my menu to save some weight. I don't plan on 1.5 lbs per day. BUT, I do try and tune my menu to work toward that number as a guide. For what it's worth, I ate more as a younger leaner 165 lb person than I do now as an older 215 lb person.
5) In the end, when you're packing for a 10 day trip, five pounds of food, one way or the other (40 vs. 45 lbs) isn't going to make or break the enjoyment of your trip. Don't kill yourself over this one. Be reasonable. If you can save five pounds, or even one, do it. But, don't do it at the expense of eating what will make your trip as enjoyable as possible.
6) Speaking from experience, it's really fun seeing and feeling how small and light your pack gets as you eat through you load on an extended trip. In that regard, eating through two or three days of food just doesn't provide the same joy as eating through two weeks of food. So maybe you should carry even more food weight and volume so you get even more joy as you eat it.
Have a really great trip and have lots of fun! This is why I love WB; 6 itemized paragraphs of analysis right after saying this topic is over-analyzed.... PLUS one item poo-pooing advice (item3) while giving lots of advice.... Classic. BUT, I do agree with all of these points except #5. I believe each pound of extra weight gets more important, not less as pack weight grows, so 5# would, in my experience, make a big difference on a pack already weighing 40 pounds. That same 5# would make hardly any difference though, on a pack weighing 10 pounds. I know, sounds backwards, just my own experience.
Tipi Walter
07-22-2019, 12:57
Planning 10 days on PCT, Section K, Rainy Pass to Stevens Pass, WA (no resupply at Stehekin). Our packs are dialed in at 20 lbs, but 10 x 2 lbs/day food doubles each of our pack weight. Over 26,000 ft of climb.
Wondering if we can cut the food down to one lb/person/day. We eat low carb/keto, no grains, sugar, or seed oils. Planning mainly meat, cheese, nuts, protein powder, coconut, some dehydrated vegetables but no fruit. I monitor blood sugar and avoid anything that spikes glucose/insulin. Sorry, Little Debbie.
Wondering how others approach this issue.
I do ALOT of backpacking trips in the 18 to 24 day range---without resupply---and in fact I just pulled two 24 day trips back to back.
My food weight alone for each of these trips was around 50 lbs including stove fuel---and then you add the "accoutrements of idiocy" of all my other gear. In the end it results in sufficiently interesting food for the duration---which is what it's all about. If you don't carry food you really want to eat you'll be a very unhappy camper.
It doesn't really matter what diet kick you're on at the time---vegetarian, paleo, keto, vegan, omnivorous WHATEVER. Just bring enough of the food your really want to eat and don't worry about the total food weight---as long as you don't end up with 5 extra lbs of food at the end.
Carrying alot of food weight, along with your other gear---results in pulling lower mile days. On my heavy pack trips I feel good to pull 10 mile days and such days are not all that uncommon.
If my base weight is 30 lbs and then I add 55 or 60 lbs of food/fuel . . . well . . . I'm talking about starting a trip with an 85-90 lb pack. Initial daily mileages will be low as pulling 5 miles with such weight is like doing 15 or 20 miles with a 20 lb pack---but the heavy weight allows a person to stay out for as long as possible while also backpacking and moving every day---and we're NOT talking about basecamping in one spot for 3 weeks.
nsherry61
07-22-2019, 13:22
This is why I love WB; 6 itemized paragraphs of analysis right after saying this topic is over-analyzed.... PLUS one item poo-pooing advice (item3) while giving lots of advice.... Classic. . .
Ah, wallowing in hypocrisy. . . touche!
That being said, I was railing against debating over 1.5 vs. 2 lbs of food and the fundamental importance of specific food types. I'd like to suggest there is a difference between analytics (specifics and numbers) vs. general assessment and personal priorities and decision making.
colorado_rob
07-22-2019, 13:37
Ah, wallowing in hypocrisy. . . touche!
That being said, I was railing against debating over 1.5 vs. 2 lbs of food and the fundamental importance of specific food types. I'd like to suggest there is a difference between analytics (specifics and numbers) vs. general assessment and personal priorities and decision making. Yeah, I don't disagree on the analytics definition... I was being ornery.
But I do think it is indeed important to dial in the weight/day thing, with whatever type of food you do like. It's not that hard to keep track of food weight carried (and brought home!) for a couple/few trips, then from then on, (except for the more extreme trips; deep cold, ultra-hiking, etc) you'll know almost exactly what to bring on these long no-resupply types of trips to stay fully fueled and happy with minimum extra weight.
Furthering what you say about over-analyzing, I used to actually count calories on long trips using a spreadsheet with food values before the trip, then keeping track of food not used. I only did this briefly, from then on just the bulk food weight is good enough. One little outcome from this silliness I did is I honed in on how many calories/ounce my food was (125 including any packaging). Not that this number is really important.
nsherry61
07-22-2019, 14:28
. . . One little outcome from this silliness I did is I honed in on how many calories/ounce my food was (125 including any packaging). Not that this number is really important.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I think knowing calories per ounce of the foods we like is super handy. I love knowing what foods I can bulk up on to save weight - sora speak. Knowing the numbers is super handy. Trying to delve too deeply in getting your numbers to match someone elses or telling someone what numbers will likely work best for them seems an exercise in futility at best.
I have a good friend and climbing buddy that carries a 250 ml bottle of olive oil with him and takes swigs from it regularly. Not my thing!
On another similar note, to keep up his body weight, my son was adding vast amounts of olive oil to his food while hiking the PCT last year. He got tired of the taste dominating everything he ate, so he happily switched to canola oil and never looked back. I'm surprised we don't have more people advocating for the use of canola oil instead of olive oil in these forums that regularly suggest olive oil for long distance hikers.
To each their own. Especially when it comes to food.
10 days is a lot of food to carry. You might try 1.5 or even 1.25 pounds per person a day, but cutting your food in half from your usual 2 pounds a day for ten days on trail seems overly extreme to me. You'll survive, but you may be hungry a lot. I agree with adding olive oil (or canola oil, if you don't like olive) to your dinners or other meals. Nuts are another high calorie (and nutritious) food.
garlic08
07-22-2019, 17:44
...I have a good friend and climbing buddy that carries a 250 ml bottle of olive oil with him and takes swigs from it regularly. Not my thing!....
Yuck. A guy I hiked much of the PCT with started doing that in the Sierra and continued it for the rest of the hike, about a liter a week. He was a fit 40 years old. After finishing, he went home feeling sick. His doctor checked him into the hospital for observation and he had a heart attack that night. (He survived it.)
colorado_rob
07-22-2019, 18:25
...
On another similar note, to keep up his body weight, my son was adding vast amounts of olive oil to his food while hiking the PCT last year. He got tired of the taste dominating everything he ate, so he happily switched to canola oil and never looked back. I wonder if perhaps we (myself and your son) crossed paths... I seem to remember a guy doing just that. I started the PCT on March 29... was that your son's same time frame? Just curious.
One reason why I like long winter trips is that I can carry butter, yummy full sticks of butter. Butter makes everything taste better.
I'm surprised we don't have more people advocating for the use of canola oil instead of olive oil in these forums that regularly suggest olive oil for long distance hikers.
Personally, if I was going to go the extra-oil route, I'd choose avocado oil over Canola oil.
But, to each their own, especially when it comes to food. I read that somewhere.
One Half
07-22-2019, 19:45
I eat similarly to you. I bought a freeze dryer and make my own freeze dried meals. I think there's a link to my thread in my "signature." I haven't updated it in quite a while.
One Half
07-22-2019, 19:48
On another similar note, to keep up his body weight, my son was adding vast amounts of olive oil to his food while hiking the PCT last year. He got tired of the taste dominating everything he ate, so he happily switched to canola oil and never looked back. I'm surprised we don't have more people advocating for the use of canola oil instead of olive oil in these forums that regularly suggest olive oil for long distance hikers.
To each their own. Especially when it comes to food.
Canola oil is the cheapest oil you can get and probably one of the deadliest and most damaging to your body. You can easily buy olive oil that doesn't overwhelm with flavor or perhaps I have just become used to it. I also use a lot of coconut oil. I love it. But refined has less of a coconut flavor if that's an issue as well. You couldn't pay me to use any "vegetable" oil.
But, to each their own.
One Half
07-22-2019, 19:58
A pound of olive oil will get you around 2,000 calories.
How do you get that? An 1/8 of a cup is over 1000 calories.
Southeast
07-22-2019, 22:37
How do you get that? An 1/8 of a cup is over 1000 calories.
1000 calories per ounce?
I always heard 250 calories per ounce for olive oil.
Meat? What kind? How was it/going to be prepared? These can have a bearing on cal/oz and meat water content? Depending on the time of the hike and choice of water content in the meat and water content of other dietary foods they have potential consequences on other wt carrying factors, such as liquid water wt carried or required...sooo the 2 lbs of food wt, IF it is high water content, is a consumable wt trade off reducing needed carried water wt. When seeking to reduce carried wt it is cumulative... not just food or gear but fuel and water too.
DO a shorter duration hike.
Huckleberries. PCT WA has some of the most abundant plump luciouious, better than the biggest blueberries.
Supplement.
Get satiation dialed down pre hike
a) drink more water
b) eat more fiber
c) as you're likely aware already avoid food additives, prescription drugs, etc that mess with satiation
d) I find for myself, satiation is also about having a wide nutritional profile food offering
First day: eat b-fast and topping off H20 before hitting the trail ie; it saves food and H20 wt
Last day: bring only 1/2 days food
Eat more fat.
Here's a BIG ONE: expend your food energy wisely. I think of it as being considerate of the output for the food input.
a) I'm regularly altering pace based on conditions
b) for only a 10 day PCT WA hike I could go 4-7 days with a highly caloric restricted diet with minimal performance or energy fall offs hitting the hike from the get go fit, in a normal body wt and fat % range, and with selective nutritionally dense food options while drinking copiously from every water source, and being mindful of energy expenditure. A big part is what you're already aware...avoiding the high sugar junk food crap.
c) if summer I use less enegry and carry less water by night hiking. The summer PCT in WA is prime conditions for this for me.
BTW Stehekin is a GREEEAT in and out food supplementing stop. Unless you're hiking LOONG hrs it doesn't make that great an hour expenditure as a trade off for reducing food wt...which you're after. Not currently positive but I've known PCTers receiving mailed or pre arranged pre purchased food services at the PCT Stehekin area that were driven in as can be in teh AT's 100 MW rather than going into Stehekin.
One Half
07-23-2019, 07:46
1000 calories per ounce?
I always heard 250 calories per ounce for olive oil.
I have no idea how much 1/8 of a cup weighs but I would guess more than an ounce. I googled it and found this info. just tried again and now finding 239 calories. no idea what did.
double d
07-23-2019, 09:15
Thank you Tipi Walter, another great and interesting post!!!
I do ALOT of backpacking trips in the 18 to 24 day range---without resupply---and in fact I just pulled two 24 day trips back to back.
My food weight alone for each of these trips was around 50 lbs including stove fuel---and then you add the "accoutrements of idiocy" of all my other gear. In the end it results in sufficiently interesting food for the duration---which is what it's all about. If you don't carry food you really want to eat you'll be a very unhappy camper.
It doesn't really matter what diet kick you're on at the time---vegetarian, paleo, keto, vegan, omnivorous WHATEVER. Just bring enough of the food your really want to eat and don't worry about the total food weight---as long as you don't end up with 5 extra lbs of food at the end.
Carrying alot of food weight, along with your other gear---results in pulling lower mile days. On my heavy pack trips I feel good to pull 10 mile days and such days are not all that uncommon.
If my base weight is 30 lbs and then I add 55 or 60 lbs of food/fuel . . . well . . . I'm talking about starting a trip with an 85-90 lb pack. Initial daily mileages will be low as pulling 5 miles with such weight is like doing 15 or 20 miles with a 20 lb pack---but the heavy weight allows a person to stay out for as long as possible while also backpacking and moving every day---and we're NOT talking about basecamping in one spot for 3 weeks.
Tipi Walter
07-23-2019, 11:01
Thank you Tipi Walter, another great and interesting post!!!
Thanks for the input. A guy with a Del Gue signature is my hero. Which brings up this: Should I get out of the mountains for awhile and parlay with city folk?? Naw, I've been to a town, Del.
perdidochas
07-23-2019, 12:02
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/miscgreen/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by swjohnsey https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2251838#post2251838)
A pound of olive oil will get you around 2,000 calories.
How do you get that? An 1/8 of a cup is over 1000 calories.
Well per https://oliveoillovers.com/calories-in-olive-oil-nutrition-facts/ a tablespoon of olive oil (which is 14 g mass or .5 oz volume) has 120 calories.
A cup has 16 tablespoons. An eightth of a cup would be two tablespoons, or 240 calories, not 1000 calories.
453.6 g is a lb. So a pound is (453.6g per tablespoon)/14g or 32.4 tablespoons (roughly a pint or two cups), and would have 3,888 calories, not 2000 calories.
Not sure where anybody is getting their figures. One greatly overestimates the calories, the other underestimates.
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/miscgreen/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by swjohnsey https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2251838#post2251838)
A pound of olive oil will get you around 2,000 calories.
perdidochas
07-23-2019, 12:04
1000 calories per ounce?
I always heard 250 calories per ounce for olive oil.
That's close to what I calculated. Per the internet, olive oil has 120 calories per tablespoon which ways 14g. A tablespoon is 0.5oz (fluid ounces).
Tipi Walter
07-23-2019, 12:09
I don't think too much about Olive Oil and its calories or weight or whatever else---I just carry the stuff---and as much of it as I can.
45457
colorado_rob
07-23-2019, 12:31
Yep, simple math.... oils have around 240-260 calories/ounce, depending on purity, etc. Butter, olive oil, canola oil, makes very little difference. 250*16=4000 calories/pound for most fats/oils. As calorie dense as you can get, that's why such foods are good (weight wise) for backpacking. Sugars and proteins are a mere 110 cal/oz. In metric terms, fats=9 cal/gm, carbs/proteins = 4 cal/gm.
Anyone who does care about weights of food (pretty much anyone who cares about hiking comfortably and happily) should learn these basic numbers.
Thank you, this claryfies a health issue I've developed during my 6 weeks desert hike this spring.
During this 6 weeks, most of the cooking was done by local Bedouins, and they use oil (very good olive oil) only by the drop. A small bottle lasted for 2 weeks - for 8 people total.
After this 6 weeks back home I had my routine medical checkup and several blood test results were off from the normal, so I was as scared as the oncologist was.
But deep inside me I had the feeling that I was (and still am) healthy, and that there had been some food issue.
So, after 8 more weeks of normal home eating I had an extra blood test, and all the results were perfect again.
We eat loads of butter and use lots of (olive) oil back home.
swjohnsey
07-23-2019, 19:54
How do you get that? An 1/8 of a cup is over 1000 calories.
All oil have about the same calorie content 9 cal/gram. Pound is 454 grams so 4,086 calories musta been drunk.
Dogwood poked at this but someone has to flat out ask. Why aren’t you going to Stehekin???? If someone told me that I had a choice of either making it to the Canadian border and going into Stehekin I’m not sure which I would pick. Even if you dietary restrictions keeps you from enjoying those delicious cinnamon rolls there are other options in town. Problem on the ten day carry solved and another great experience.
Also, do not underestimate the difficulty of the section between Stevens and Stehekin. the day around Glacier Peak was the only full hiking day outside the snowy Sierra that I didn’t hit 30 miles. I have seen others get surprised on that section including a couple record attempters.
Yes we know about the difficulty. We've done the Stevens to Snoqualmie section already. That's why we are only planning 10-14 mile days, because we expect a lot of one mile/hour hiking. Not new for us. Long distance hiking since 1970, plus a career as a field geologist (USGS), and lots of international hiking including Iceland (4 trips) and Nepal (2 trips) and the whole AT (did numerous sections twice including Maine). Just giving perspective, we're not beginners although others here have more experience than we do.
Skipping Stehekin because we only have 10 days to use, and it's only 19 miles in from Rainy Pass (not worth spending one day to save 1.5 day's food). We will see it another time, sounds great.
I know, we're a little odd... we seek out tough stuff rather than avoid it. I try to do something that sucks every day (apologies to Goggins).
We are making good progress coming up with a formula for 10 days food! It's doable but needs much planning, measuring, pre-packing. We did this previously for a 5 day PCT hike and we had too much food, and we just weren't that hungry.
Thanks for the useful comments!
Correct. Industrial seed oils like canola were originally designed to lubricate machinery, not as food. There's no history of them being used as food before the industrial age because they were impossible to make without high temperature, high pressure industrial processes. Toxic and inflammatory in the body. (This alone is a good reason to cook all your own food rather than eating in restaurants, which use canola by the gallon).
https://www.marksdailyapple.com/dear-mark-canola-oil/
Canola oil is the cheapest oil you can get and probably one of the deadliest and most damaging to your body. You can easily buy olive oil that doesn't overwhelm with flavor or perhaps I have just become used to it. I also use a lot of coconut oil. I love it. But refined has less of a coconut flavor if that's an issue as well. You couldn't pay me to use any "vegetable" oil.
But, to each their own.
nsherry61
07-24-2019, 11:35
Canola oil is the cheapest oil you can get and probably one of the deadliest and most damaging to your body. . . .
Correct. Industrially produced seed oils like canola were originally designed to lubricate machinery, not as food. There's no history of them being used as food before the industrial age because they were impossible to make without high temperature, high pressure industrial processes. Toxic and inflammatory in the body. . .
Oh, come off it you health food fad fanatics. I suppose you don't eat cooked food or any form of food that has been developed with selective breeding?
For what it's worth, there's no history of any kind for canola oil before 1979 because prior to that it was called rapeseed oil. And, rape seed oil has been used for all kinds of things, including food (similar to olive oil) back as far as the 13th century. The catch being that until rape seed cultivars were developed that were sufficiently low in erucic and glucosinolates it was not a very healthy edible. My understanding is that the name canola was introduced for marketing to avoid the stigma associated with rapeseed of being only marginally edible prior to the development of the modern cultivars.
As for processing and health, it appears that extraction techniques for canola and virgin olive oil are similar using presses and heat whereas "extra virgin" olive oil is just pressed. If you look at the actual content of the oils, canola has more omega 3 & 6 fatty acids (good things) than olive oil. Whereas extra virgin (not the less expensive virgin) olive oil has more antioxidants (other good things). Both are primarily unsaturated fats ("healthy fats"). Finally, I'm not sure why someone is all worked up about heat processed oils when they are used in cooking to begin with!?
OK, what else do you have to say that's irrelevant? Sorry, traditional olive oil has been made for thousands of years, they are not the same.
Do you work for Monsanto?
Avoiding toxic foods is fanatical. Right. This is an intelligence test bozo.
Dogwood poked at this but someone has to flat out ask. Why aren’t you going to Stehekin???? If someone told me that I had a choice of either making it to the Canadian border and going into Stehekin I’m not sure which I would pick. Even if you dietary restrictions keeps you from enjoying those delicious cinnamon rolls there are other options in town. Problem on the ten day carry solved and another great experience.
Also, do not underestimate the difficulty of the section between Stevens and Stehekin. the day around Glacier Peak was the only full hiking day outside the snowy Sierra that I didn’t hit 30 miles. I have seen others get surprised on that section including a couple record attempters.
Yes we know about the difficulty. We've done the Stevens to Snoqualmie section already. That's why we are only planning 10-14 mile days, because we expect a lot of one mile/hour hiking. Not new for us. Long distance hiking since 1970, plus a career as a field geologist (USGS), and lots of international hiking including Iceland (4 trips) and Nepal (2 trips) and the whole AT (did numerous sections twice including Maine). Just giving perspective, we're not beginners although others here have more experience than we do.
Skipping Stehekin because we only have 10 days to use, and it's only 19 miles in from Rainy Pass (not worth spending one day to save 1.5 day's food). We will see it another time, sounds great.
I know, we're a little odd... we seek out tough stuff rather than avoid it. I try to do something that sucks every day (apologies to Goggins).
We are making good progress coming up with a formula for 10 days food! It's doable but needs much planning, measuring, pre-packing. We did this previously for a 5 day PCT hike and we had too much food, and we just weren't that hungry.
Thanks for the useful comments!
Sooo, unless your party has good reason to start/end at Rainy Pass start/end in Stehekin. An exciting solitudinous place that adds diversity to a northern WA PCT section hike is beginning or ending at Stehekin via a Lake Chelan Ferry Ride to the town of Chelan. In Chelan a short bus ride goes into Wanatchee GHound or area connecting buses to various Int AP's. The buses go through fields of prime national pear, cherry, apple and other produce areas with a diversity of crafts made food and other local products. If you dont it stands a good chance you may never visit Stehekin if doing the PCT in section hikes with Rainy Pass as the preferred end/start pt. FWIW, I've had it related umpteen times by PCTers Stehekin being one of the most memorable visits of their trips.
Consider Lake Chelan is a greatly scenic DEEP U.S. lake that is a Nat Rec Area in itself. From a boat it always reminded me of the Waterton Lakes complex of the Rockies spanning Waterton Lakes Provincial Park and Glacier NP or a Norwegian fjord. I think it would hold some interest to a Foodie and geologist?
FWIW, and since you've shared your dietary concerns, even I also as a picky pescatarian, was able to eat well at the Stehekin Lodge. The Lodge addressed all my dietary pickiness with a friendly smile, as well as everyone else in the 14 PCT thru hiker strong party last time I was there...so much so we all chipped in leaving a memorable respectful to others tip to the staff. The bakery is awesome, additionally so, given it's remoteness.
To each their own but I take a similar approach to LD hiking as Sly once said succinctly, "thru-hiking/LD hiking/segment/day hiking is not just about hiking." A scenic boat ride follows along that principle.
To reiterate that can be some strenuous hiking in the elected segment....which can increase food wt if not making miles.
We have finalized and packed our food, and it comes out to 15.7 lbs total for two people for 10 days. I'll carry 10 lbs and my petite wife will carry 5 lbs, and this will get lighter as the days go by. That's 0.8 lbs/day per person. We are looking at 30,000 ft of climb so we need to keep this number low, yet the nutrition and food value is as high as possible. Mainly fat and protein. Our livers produce glucose on demand.
We are relying heavily on homemade dehydrated food (some purchased dehydrated food, like whole eggs, cheddar cheese powder, and PB2). Purchased products are mostly splurges like chocolate and Moon Cheese. We dehydrated cooked hamburger, sausage, and bacon to put in our meals. Again, we are fat adapted Keto (3.5 years). And we've done this before, week long on the PCT (we were so satisfied that we didn't eat all the food that time, 2 years ago), and several section hikes on AT. Happy to share weights if anyone is interested. Basically breakfasts and dinners are 6 oz each, sealed in Foodsaver bags. We use a Gigapower stove just to boil water, then let the food sit in an insulated cozy for 10 minutes. I figure we'll need to carry two 8 oz canisters for the trip--we like to make coffee twice/day.
Breakfast
Egg, cheese, sausage, bacon ham
Snack
Granola bars - homemade vanilla nut (recipe in Eat Rich Live Long)
Snack
Protein bars - homemade
Snack
Beef Jerky - People's choice (no sugar)
Snack
dried fruit - organic peaches, kiwis, apricots
Snack
PB 2 powdered almond butter
Snack
Beef stick - Costco, individ wrapped
Snack
String cheese - Frigo, individ wrapped
Spluge
Macademia nuts
Spluge
Choc covered espresso beans
Spluge
Moon cheese
Snack
Chocolate bar, Lindt 90%
Coffee
10 decaf; 10 caf Starbucks Via
Coffee creamer
Quest MCT powder
Staple
Olive oil
Dinners
vege, meat, cheese, spice
Pemmican is keto friendly and calorie dense, worked for native Americans.
Pemmican gives you pretty bad gas. Best to avoid if you're hiking with a tribe ;P
We have finalized and packed our food, and it comes out to 15.7 lbs total for two people for 10 days. I'll carry 10 lbs and my petite wife will carry 5 lbs, and this will get lighter as the days go by. That's 0.8 lbs/day per person. We are looking at 30,000 ft of climb so we need to keep this number low, yet the nutrition and food value is as high as possible. Mainly fat and protein. Our livers produce glucose on demand.
We are relying heavily on homemade dehydrated food (some purchased dehydrated food, like whole eggs, cheddar cheese powder, and PB2). Purchased products are mostly splurges like chocolate and Moon Cheese. We dehydrated cooked hamburger, sausage, and bacon to put in our meals. Again, we are fat adapted Keto (3.5 years). And we've done this before, week long on the PCT (we were so satisfied that we didn't eat all the food that time, 2 years ago), and several section hikes on AT. Happy to share weights if anyone is interested. Basically breakfasts and dinners are 6 oz each, sealed in Foodsaver bags. We use a Gigapower stove just to boil water, then let the food sit in an insulated cozy for 10 minutes. I figure we'll need to carry two 8 oz canisters for the trip--we like to make coffee twice/day.
Breakfast
Egg, cheese, sausage, bacon ham
Snack
Granola bars - homemade vanilla nut (recipe in Eat Rich Live Long)
Snack
Protein bars - homemade
Snack
Beef Jerky - People's choice (no sugar)
Snack
dried fruit - organic peaches, kiwis, apricots
Snack
PB 2 powdered almond butter
Snack
Beef stick - Costco, individ wrapped
Snack
String cheese - Frigo, individ wrapped
Spluge
Macademia nuts
Spluge
Choc covered espresso beans
Spluge
Moon cheese
Snack
Chocolate bar, Lindt 90%
Coffee
10 decaf; 10 caf Starbucks Via
Coffee creamer
Quest MCT powder
Staple
Olive oil
Dinners
vege, meat, cheese, spice
To clarify, 10.7 lbs for two, that's two people for 10 days? .8 lbs/per/day? Wow. Really food wt impressed! Lots of fats and protein as you state. Thx for sharing some details. This doesn't add up though: "Basically breakfasts and dinners are 6 oz each,.." Is that per per or for two p? Not for 2 peeps? Ok if it is 2 p that's 24 oz for bfast and dinner?/day?
No, it really works. If you use the right dehydrated foods, like whole eggs, sausage, hamburger, vegetables, cheddar cheese, etc, a six ounce package can be split into two huge bowls of food for two hungry hikers. We did it twice a day for 10 days on a very tough hike, and just added in a few other snacks like jerky, moon cheese, and some dried fruit.
Four ounces is a little small, and seven ounces is a bit much. Most were 5.5 oz, just about perfect. Again, we are fat adapted for 3.5 years and keto enough that we don't get hungry on the trail.
High protein (~35%), moderate fat (~50%), and low carb (~15%) can work. I would suggest that it is similar macro to ancient hunter gatherer cultures, from which we evolved. They certainly weren't eating 80% carbs like the PCT hikers I saw, starving and unable to access their bodily fat stores because the first thing that happens is the insulin rush turns off fat burning. A high carb diet may work for some, but for many of us it's a diabetes starter kit once you are over 50.