View Full Version : GSMNP avoiding shelters?
DownYonder
07-20-2019, 18:24
I've done all of the NC & TN portion of the trail except for the park. I have hip issues that makes sleeping on the ground impossible. The pain is unbearable even with a good pad. I thought my backpacking days were over until I discovered hammocks. So, is it possible to do the park hammock camping and stay out of the shelters?
I've done all of the NC & TN portion of the trail except for the park. I have hip issues that makes sleeping on the ground impossible. The pain is unbearable even with a good pad. I thought my backpacking days were over until I discovered hammocks. So, is it possible to do the park hammock camping and stay out of the shelters?
not really...
unless you drop off the AT down to another campsite that permit it...
or if you are hiking 50 miles prior and 50 miles afterwards all continuous...........and the shelter happens to be full....
hammocks cannot be hung inside shelters...............they can be used at shelter sites only if shelter is full and one is a thru hiker....
Rain Man
07-20-2019, 22:01
not really...
unless you drop off the AT down to another campsite that permit it...
or if you are hiking 50 miles prior and 50 miles afterwards all continuous...........and the shelter happens to be full....
hammocks cannot be hung inside shelters...............they can be used at shelter sites only if shelter is full and one is a thru hiker....
What he said. Never thought about a disability or "doctor's note," though. Might ask the Backcountry Ranger Office?
Never thought about a disability or "doctor's note," though. Might ask the Backcountry Ranger Office?
i would tend to say that they would also say no go....
after all, hiking is an option....
they could just say "well, if you're that way, stay at home then".....
i can't really see them bending the rules because it would just start the pandora's box of people getting excuses...
there's already enough people trying to skirt the issue as it is.....
but, what do i know......
rmitchell
07-20-2019, 22:34
People hike all 800 miles on the park without camping in the backcountry .
By doing some long days you could exit and start back at Cosby, Tremont and Cades Cove.
Your total miles would be over 100 as opposed to 70 but you could sleep in a hammock at a campground or in a motel room.
The Weasel
07-20-2019, 22:34
Speaking as a disability lawyer, I would get a letter from a licensed MD confirming this, and then contact the Park HQ. Direct the letter/call to the Handicap Accommodation office. I suggest providing assurances that you will have non-destructive collars to tie to trees and get exact locations set out. They will have very appropriate safety concerns about scavenging animals where you set up, including bears, so you should address those concerns up front. Frankly, speaking as a backpacker, I have some problems with it: (1) It's a dumb idea; if your bones are so bad that you can't pad yourself, it raises medical questions about whether you should be out there in the first place. (2) It sets a poor example with others in the shelters, some of whom will resent you even if they shouldn't, since you're basically getting a guaranteed spot at the shelter. (3) It's potentially dangerous, as noted. But, legally, the Park has to provide a reasonable accommodation, if you can establish medical necessity.
TW
FreeGoldRush
07-20-2019, 23:02
I'm currently doing a flip-flop thru hike from HF. Just finished the North half st Katahdin. Will be starting from HF to Springer soon. I have not slept in a shelter yet due to hip issues, peeing too much at night, and simply being a restless sleeper when hiking. I will get through the Smokies. Here are some ideas:
1) Don't expect to sleep. Sit there and read on your phone, take a short catnap maybe. Rest. The problem is other people in the shelter will hate that you aren't laying still.
2) slackpack it. Hardest section is Clingman's Dome to Fontana Dam. 32 miles I can get done, but the 12,000 feet of total decline here is a knee killer. Might be at my limit on that one.
3) Create an itinerary that gets you done another trail and either off the trail or to a legal campsite. If someone has figured out the most efficient solution and can post it here I would be appreciative.
DownYonder
07-21-2019, 07:52
People hike all 800 miles on the park without camping in the backcountry .
By doing some long days you could exit and start back at Cosby, Tremont and Cades Cove.
Your total miles would be over 100 as opposed to 70 but you could sleep in a hammock at a campground or in a motel room.
This would be my preferred tactic. I have no desire to have special privileges or skirt the rules. If anyone has done the alternate route, I would love to see the exact route!! Thanks
What he said. Never thought about a disability or "doctor's note," though. Might ask the Backcountry Ranger Office?
Interestingly, the privy at Ice Water Spring shelter has handicapped accessible seat, hand holds and signage in it.
But I never noticed a 3 mile ramp from Newfound Gap.
An anti-shelter friend of mine was telling me of his Smokies AT trips, all done at peak thru hiker season in order to avoid having to stay in the shelters. Its a calculated crapshoot, but probably your best shot. Worked for him. My guess is that if there are one or two nights where it doesn't work, you take your chances on getting caught and potentially pay whatever fine there is. Price you pay for comfort and completing the hike you want, right?
johnacraft
07-21-2019, 11:11
I have hip issues that makes sleeping on the ground impossible. The pain is unbearable even with a good pad.
Have you tried any of the thicker (> 4") inflatable pads available? I sleep rather well on a 2.5" pad, but a thicker pad (Big Agnes makes a couple of lines rated at 4.25") is even more comfortable, and it makes the difference between a restless night and a good night's sleep for my wife.
If anyone has done the alternate route, I would love to see the exact route!! Thanks
If you're not insisting on hiking a continuous footpath, on consecutive days, and always getting a good night's sleep, it's not too difficult to finish the route with minimal (or even no) overnights. Plan your trip for long summer days with a full or nearly-full moon. Pick days like Monday or Tuesday, when there are fewer hikers at the shelters. Factor in rest days between longer hikes.
Newfound Gap to Davenport Gap is ~31 miles (Tricorner Knob shelter is about half way), and could even be done in one long day. Dropping off-trail to a backcountry campsite isn't really feasible on this section.
Clingmans Dome to Newfound Gap (~8 miles) is never far from the road.
Clingmans Dome to Fontana Dam is ~33 miles (Spence or Russell Field shelter are both about half way), and can also be done as a long one-day hike. Dropping down to a backcountry campsite (e.g. 9 or 10) is feasible, but not really necessary.
Rain Man
07-21-2019, 11:15
... Its a calculated crapshoot, but probably your best shot. ... you take your chances on getting caught and potentially pay whatever fine there is. Price you pay for comfort and completing the hike you want, right?
From the WhiteBlaze User Agreement: "4. Discussions involving how to commit illegal acts ... are forbidden."
The OP has said he doesn't even intend to skirt the rules. Good for him.
DownYonder
07-21-2019, 12:30
I grew up in Waynesville and have hiked the entire stretch in segments multiple times. But that was 50 years ago, so doing the Park is something that I would like to do again. I would never break the rules!! Unfortunately, even 2 good pads does not help. I've been in PT for several months and I no longer have pain while hiking. But the minute I lay down, the pain is extreme.
From the WhiteBlaze User Agreement: "4. Discussions involving how to commit illegal acts ... are forbidden."
The OP has said he doesn't even intend to skirt the rules. Good for him.
So, first of all, the idea of hiking in prime thru hiker season (nobo) to avoid staying in shelters isn't a legal issue - let's just clarify that for future ref. I presume, the "apologize later" notion of paying a fine if nec. is the reason for your response. Please consider that this person has a potentially legit reason for avoiding use of the shelter and may or may not be qualified to do so by a ranger in the moment. Hopefully beforehand, but if not, and if attempting an AT thru during said season, and given the somewhat unlikely possibility that the shelter might not be full, it may very well be construed by said ranger that the OP made a reasonable attempt to hike the AT through GSMNP when he had the best chance of not having to use a shelter. If the shelter is half full, maybe not, and that is the major risk. In the likelihood that the shelter is mostly full, the ranger may give him a pass being that in spirit of regulation and allowance, he attempted to hike the AT through the smokies at the best opportunity to avoid hard-floored shelters due to health reasons. Of course, this being that presence of said ranger is presumed.
While I couldn't disagree if you said the OP would have to stay in a shelter if room and if enforced to do so by ranger, my guess is that the ranger also gives the option of not staying in the shelter and paying a fine if indeed that is his/her/they're decision. As worst case scenario. Ultimately, the rangers don't want folks regularly staying outside the shelters due mostly to bear reasons, but of course, this circumstance happens routinely during that particular season. So at the end of the day, a ranger allowing this to happen during a period of time when it mostly does happen is not unfathomable. Therefore, my post is not about doing something illegal, but rather, taking advantage of allowances during peak season and knowing the potential for various outlier circumstances. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. You're welcome to advise the OP differently, but no need to quote me. I don't see this as advisement of how to flaunt the rules, but rather the best way to accommodate needs given both the rules and allowances in place.
HooKooDooKu
07-21-2019, 14:07
Given the crowds I've seen at GSMNP shelters during the spring time bubble, it shouldn't be too difficult to find yourself at full shelters every night and there for be able to legally hang a hammock as rules treat hammock hangers the same at tents.
However, the only ones that can legally tent/hammock near the shelters are those on a thru permit. But to qualify for a thru permit, you must start and end your hike 50 miles beyond the park boundaries.
So if you are ONLY trying to hike the GSMNP section of the AT, there is no legal way to hammock at shelters as your permit requires a reservation for each shelters you plan to stay at, and therefore you have a reservation in the shelter.
The Weasel
07-21-2019, 14:22
Again, as speaking as an attorney, many may not realize that a citation from a Ranger is a written CRIMINAL notice of a violation of Title 18 of the United States (Criminal) Code that must be responded to IN PERSON before a Magistrate Judge at a United States District Court (found only in major cities that are rarely near parks), or by hiring an attorney (my fees for Federal Court land cases, and I've had several, start at $500). Sometimes even with an attorney a personal appearance is required on a set hearing date weeks later that you have no control over. These are also criminal cases, prosecuted by Assistant United States Attorneys and fines are not trivial, usually exceeding $250. If you are visiting the US (e.g. from Canada), you may be later denied re-entry to the US, and such a violation can constitute grounds for an order for removal from the US, i.e. deportation. Your violation will be logged into PACER, the federal court case registry, and found by anyone (including employers, colleges or pretty much anyone who wants to) easily.
These aren't traffic tickets, folks, or parking citations. Like it or not, violation of NPS camping regulations (including "stealth camping") can have lifelong and serious implications. Don't take your chances on a "sympathetic" Ranger who will ignore non-compliance. LEO Rangers don't keep their jobs by ignoring the law. You shouldn't either.
TW
Newfound Gap to Davenport Gap is ~31 miles (Tricorner Knob shelter is about half way), and could even be done in one long day. Dropping off-trail to a backcountry campsite isn't really feasible on this section.
actually this stretch is one that does lend to dropping down to another campsite that is not located on the AT...
its the easiest one---just drop down to CS 29....
its not that steep and not that far....
still going to be adding miles on but this is the shortest way to get from the AT to a non AT campsite...
let's just clarify that for future ref. I presume, the "apologize later" notion of paying a fine if nec. is the reason for your response.
thats the part that violates the user agreement....
you are suggesting that one breaks the law but is ok with the consequences....
also, keep in mind---say this does happen and a ranger comes along---not only can a ranger write a ticket--they could also escort the person out....
would kinda suck to hike all day---get comfortable illegally---then escorted off the trail maybe at nighttime...
and walk away with a ticket...
Hikers tend to hit the sack early. Wait just a bit, most will be sound asleep. Then walk over to the overflow area and set up for the night.
I did the northern end of GSMNP 2 weeks ago. One shelter had at least 3 tents set up around and it looked like plenty of room in the shelter when I walked past. That evening I tried to sleep in the next shelter but could not (severe sleep apnea) so I set up in the overflow area 25 yds away. One gentlemen came out and looked at me funny so I explained to him if I sleep in the shelter no one else will. He nodded and said I was doing them a favor. I responded I was doing it for all of us. He wished me a good evening and went back inside.
I did wonder what would happen if a Ranger wandered by in the middle of the night. Would he force me back in? Would he accept the medical and social reasoning I would explain to him, Would I be arrested, handcuffed and marched out? Amazingly most LEOs are human and do understand sometimes things are different and need to be dealt with differently.
HooKooDooKu
07-21-2019, 21:41
actually this stretch is one that does lend to dropping down to another campsite that is not located on the AT...
its the easiest one---just drop down to CS 29....
its not that steep and not that far....
still going to be adding miles on but this is the shortest way to get from the AT to a non AT campsite...
However note that if hiking on aThru Hiker permit, you are limited to shelters and campsite on the AT
However note that if hiking on aThru Hiker permit, you are limited to shelters and campsite on the AT
that is true----i was going with the assumption that OP was doing it as a section hike as he didnt mention hiking before and after...
but, yes, for others as well, that would apply.....
Pringles
07-21-2019, 21:59
Taking a different approach... could you talk to your doctor about a better pain killer for two or three nights, so you could legally stay in the shelters, and not have the horrible pain? I’m not trying to get you addicted to something... but if you can’t legally solve the problem one way, maybe you can manage it another way.
Wise Old Owl
07-21-2019, 23:07
I am with Pringles - but I would recommend an Orthopedic Sergeon, I had a knee cleaned out and I am doing much better. That being said the hammock community has had lots of discussions with the parks and the recommendation is a two inch wide strap to avoid hurting the tree bark. Do your best, I can't tell your age or weight from your bio or the lack of pictures. I wish you the best!
FreeGoldRush
07-22-2019, 08:00
From the WhiteBlaze User Agreement: "4. Discussions involving how to commit illegal acts ... are forbidden."
The OP has said he doesn't even intend to skirt the rules. Good for him.
He said nothing about how to skirt the rules. He simply stated there may be a fine if you get caught. You are being hyper sensitive. I don’t know why this always has to come up when someone wants to legally avoid shelters in the smokies.
FreeGoldRush
07-22-2019, 08:14
I am with Pringles - but I would recommend an Orthopedic Sergeon, I had a knee cleaned out and I am doing much better. That being said the hammock community has had lots of discussions with the parks and the recommendation is a two inch wide strap to avoid hurting the tree bark. Do your best, I can't tell your age or weight from your bio or the lack of pictures. I wish you the best!
Don’t be logical. Environmental impacts are not the issue here. A hammocker in the overflow area isn’t creating an impact. This is about enforcement of rules and our requirement to follow them.
He said nothing about how to skirt the rules. He simply stated there may be a fine if you get caught. You are being hyper sensitive. I don’t know why this always has to come up when someone wants to legally avoid shelters in the smokies.
by saying " you take your chances on getting caught and potentially pay whatever fine there is."
it's implying that one breaks the rules/laws...
after all, nobody is getting caught and paying a fine for something that is done legally......
and there's a reason to be "hyper sensitive"-----the more people that break the law or go against the rules in the Park only lead to one thing-----more rules and regulations in the Park...
perfect example was the change in the backcountry reservation system....
people were bending the backcountry rules and what happened-----more rules came down as a result...........
FreeGoldRush
07-22-2019, 10:14
by saying " you take your chances on getting caught and potentially pay whatever fine there is."
it's implying that one breaks the rules/laws...
after all, nobody is getting caught and paying a fine for something that is done legally......
and there's a reason to be "hyper sensitive"-----the more people that break the law or go against the rules in the Park only lead to one thing-----more rules and regulations in the Park...
perfect example was the change in the backcountry reservation system....
people were bending the backcountry rules and what happened-----more rules came down as a result...........
The whiteblaze policy references discussion on HOW to break the rules. The poster did not discuss anything about HOW to skirt rules. I honestly can’t comprehend why this is hard to understand.
If someone wants to enjoy the trail but has a legitimate medical issue that prevents them from sleeping on a wooden platform, you guys lack empathy in a way that boggles the mind. We are not hoodlums looking for ways to rebel and break rules.
When I hang my hammock nothing touches the ground except my shoes. My implementation of LNT surpasses many shelter dwellers I have seen out here. The camping rules in the smokies could be far more efficient. But they are like taking a sledge hammer to the problem. They lack detailed thought and common sense. That’s fine. I’ll work within the rules. But please stop acting like we are criminals for making this effort.
chiefiepoo
07-22-2019, 11:16
All of what TW says is a possible outcome most would seek to avoid. Should a person blow off a citation from NPS Rangers, anywhere, as not being a serious matter and choosing to ignore the consequences for not responding is in for a rude awakening. Likely a warrant for failure to appear will be issued. Federal Marshalls might not come to your door, but, someday when you're driving through a remote small town you might roll a stop sign or be caught doing over the posted limit. When you get stopped and the LEO runs your info and finds an outstanding warrant on you, you are probably going to jail.
For reference: https://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/upload/GSMNP-Map_JUNE14-complete4-2.pdf
Here is an option for doing the GSMNP northbound and staying at backcountry campsites where you can legally use your hammock. It adds a bunch of extra miles and all campsites are downhill from the AT so lots of extra ups and downs.
Day 1 - Fontana to 113 - 4.4mi +3100ft -1300ft
Day 2 - 113 to 9 - 13.1mi +4300ft -4800ft
Day 3 - 9 to 26 - 13.4mi +6100ft -4900ft
Day 4 - 26 to 46 - 13.5mi +4600ft -5300ft
Day 5 - 46 to Newfound Gap - 10.2mi +3800ft -2600ft
Spend night in Gatlinburg and resupply... or come back another time
Day 6 - Newfound Gap to 49 - 9.0mi +2600ft - 4500ft
Day 7 - 49 to 29 - 21.5mi +9000ft -7500ft
Day 8 - 29 to 37 - 9.2mi +2700ft -4300ft
Day 9 - 37 to Davenport Gap - 9.2mi +3200ft -4200ft
Totals for this nontraditional hike: 103.5mi +39,400ft -39,400ft
Total for traditional hike staying at shelters: 72mi +26,600ft -26500ft
Data taken from National Geographic Topo! (defunct software)
FreeGoldRush
07-22-2019, 13:10
All of what TW says is a possible outcome most would seek to avoid. Should a person blow off a citation from NPS Rangers, anywhere, as not being a serious matter and choosing to ignore the consequences for not responding is in for a rude awakening. Likely a warrant for failure to appear will be issued. Federal Marshalls might not come to your door, but, someday when you're driving through a remote small town you might roll a stop sign or be caught doing over the posted limit. When you get stopped and the LEO runs your info and finds an outstanding warrant on you, you are probably going to jail.
No one said anything about ignoring consequences or blowing off a citation. Relax.
HooKooDooKu
07-22-2019, 13:34
No one said anything about ignoring consequences or blowing off a citation. Relax.
No... but people are effectively saying "ignore the rules and risk the punishment"... and that sort of attitude annoys the heck out of those of us here that love the Smokies because we already see too many people breaking the rules and know that the park service doesn't have enough resources to properly enforce the existing rules... and the rules were put in place for a purpose. When they continue to get violated, the rules will change (in a way that will add more restrictions, not relax them) because it's cheaper to change the rules than it is to hire more resources to enforce the existing rules.
DownYonder
07-22-2019, 13:47
For reference: https://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/upload/GSMNP-Map_JUNE14-complete4-2.pdf
Here is an option for doing the GSMNP northbound and staying at backcountry campsites where you can legally use your hammock. It adds a bunch of extra miles and all campsites are downhill from the AT so lots of extra ups and downs.
Day 1 - Fontana to 113 - 4.4mi +3100ft -1300ft
Day 2 - 113 to 9 - 13.1mi +4300ft -4800ft
Day 3 - 9 to 26 - 13.4mi +6100ft -4900ft
Day 4 - 26 to 46 - 13.5mi +4600ft -5300ft
Day 5 - 46 to Newfound Gap - 10.2mi +3800ft -2600ft
Spend night in Gatlinburg and resupply... or come back another time
Day 6 - Newfound Gap to 49 - 9.0mi +2600ft - 4500ft
Day 7 - 49 to 29 - 21.5mi +9000ft -7500ft
Day 8 - 29 to 37 - 9.2mi +2700ft -4300ft
Day 9 - 37 to Davenport Gap - 9.2mi +3200ft -4200ft
Totals for this nontraditional hike: 103.5mi +39,400ft -39,400ft
Total for traditional hike staying at shelters: 72mi +26,600ft -26500ft
Data taken from National Geographic Topo! (defunct software)
@madgoat....THANK YOU!! That is exactly what I needed. I now see that I asked my initial questions completely wrong. I never intended/suggested that I am willing to violate the rules. Only looking for a way to hike it again and use a hammock rather than the shelters.
Each of those segments are doable with the possible exception of day 7. Thanks again!!
FreeGoldRush
07-22-2019, 14:00
No... but people are effectively saying "ignore the rules and risk the punishment"... and that sort of attitude annoys the heck out of those of us here that love the Smokies because we already see too many people breaking the rules and know that the park service doesn't have enough resources to properly enforce the existing rules... and the rules were put in place for a purpose. When they continue to get violated, the rules will change (in a way that will add more restrictions, not relax them) because it's cheaper to change the rules than it is to hire more resources to enforce the existing rules.
No, they are not “effectively saying” that either. No need to backtrack on your prior comment. You can just stop the false accusations entirely.
To be clear: Some people would like to discuss legal ways to avoid shelters in the smokies. Not doing so comes with consequences that no one should attempt to avoid.
@madgoat....THANK YOU!! That is exactly what I needed. I now see that I asked my initial questions completely wrong. I never intended/suggested that I am willing to violate the rules. Only looking for a way to hike it again and use a hammock rather than the shelters.
Each of those segments are doable with the possible exception of day 7. Thanks again!!
Yeah, that 21.5 mile day would be a bear. If you could figure out a way to carry enough padding, perhaps you could stay in a shelter that night instead of at 49.
Good luck. I hope you are able to work the logistics and get it done.
The Weasel
07-22-2019, 15:56
No, they are not “effectively saying” that either. No need to backtrack on your prior comment. You can just stop the false accusations entirely.
To be clear: Some people would like to discuss legal ways to avoid shelters in the smokies. Not doing so comes with consequences that no one should attempt to avoid.
My post was from actual observation, as well as notation of posts here, that a lot of backpackers/hikers think that a Ranger citation for camping violations is on the same order as a traffic ticket. It's not. Because of the way the federal court system is, it is both a big deal and a major problem for those who get tickets. Can I get you off? Yes, at least the first time. Are you at risk of having your persona life disproportionately screwed up for decades if you don't get off? You better believe it. And, by the way, to get you off, it's gonna cost you something north of $1,000 and probably a personal appearance. Don't tell me that you can't come to Court in Charlotte, NC because you live in Walla Walla, Wash and that's too expensive for a 15 minute hearing in travel expense. You want to know the difference between God and a federal judge? Well, God doesnt think he's a judge. So hanging a hammock other than when there is NPS policy stated saying OK isn't even a discussion topic. Aint. Gonna. Happen.
TW
HooKooDooKu
07-22-2019, 16:04
No, they are not “effectively saying” that either.
...My guess is that if there are one or two nights where it doesn't work, you take your chances on getting caught and potentially pay whatever fine there is...
The bold part of that quote sure sounds like "ignore the rules and risk the punishment"...
Not sure what you mean by "No need to backtrack on your prior comment" (didn't think I was backtracking on anything).
I happily discuss legal ways for people to avoid things they don't like about GSMNP.
Off topic case in point... when people talk about wanting to hike with their dogs in GSMNP, I readily point out that Parson's Branch road (a dirt road that is like a really wide trail in the woods) is currently closed to vehicle traffic, but park rules allow dogs (on a leash) along park roads.
rmitchell
07-22-2019, 16:10
Madgoat, is there possibly a typo for day 4 & 5.
Day 4 - 26 to 46 - 13.5mi +4600ft -5300ft
Day 5 - 46 to Newfound Gap - 10.2mi +3800ft -2600ft
Do you intend to say campsite 68?
Campsite 46 is way down Indian Creek toward Deep Creek.
The bold part of that quote sure sounds like "ignore the rules and risk the punishment"...
I appreciate FGR taking my side. I also appreciate what you and others do to provide good info on GSMNP. And I take in everything you say.
What I was trying to say with regard to "take your chances" was to point out the obvious, not suggest a best practice of flaunting rules, but I could've said that better. Aside from that, the method of hiking the AT during peak thru hiker season to avoid staying in shelters is legit, though it does come with that obvious risk. Perhaps one the OP shouldn't take.
I do sense there's a bit much of this immediate going to site guidelines on perceived suggestion of illegal activity when something is said like this. Best way to approach it is probably how The Weasel responded. What I thought was reasonable might very well not be nearly as benign as I thought. One can argue if something illegal or not, but my take is that on par that is not what people do here. Might back off a bit on some direct language to that effect and ask more questions.
p.s. thru hiker permit not needed, just have to reserve space in shelters and then give it up to thru hikers all too happy to take it from you. Of course, many more thrus are using hammocks, so that may be the real risk - thru hikers forcing you to comply with your permit.
The Weasel
07-22-2019, 18:34
I appreciate FGR taking my side. I also appreciate what you and others do to provide good info on GSMNP. And I take in everything you say.
What I was trying to say with regard to "take your chances" was to point out the obvious, not suggest a best practice of flaunting rules, but I could've said that better. Aside from that, the method of hiking the AT during peak thru hiker season to avoid staying in shelters is legit, though it does come with that obvious risk. Perhaps one the OP shouldn't take.
I do sense there's a bit much of this immediate going to site guidelines on perceived suggestion of illegal activity when something is said like this. Best way to approach it is probably how The Weasel responded. What I thought was reasonable might very well not be nearly as benign as I thought. One can argue if something illegal or not, but my take is that on par that is not what people do here. Might back off a bit on some direct language to that effect and ask more questions.
p.s. thru hiker permit not needed, just have to reserve space in shelters and then give it up to thru hikers all too happy to take it from you. Of course, many more thrus are using hammocks, so that may be the real risk - thru hikers forcing you to comply with your permit.
Your permit is not transferable. You use it or lose it. If lost or not used in the shelter you . must leave.
HooKooDooKu
07-22-2019, 20:27
Your permit is not transferable. You use it or lose it. If lost or not used in the shelter you . must leave.
Technical correct, but so long as the shelter is full before tents/hammocks start going up, the spirit of the rule is being followed... Seems like I've been at a shelter during the bubble and even the ridge runner didn't care who was and who was not in the shelter so long as the shelter was full and reservation holders had first option at the shelter.
So long as the spirit of the rules are being followed, there isn't the danger of more restrictive rules getting put in place.
Your permit is not transferable. You use it or lose it. If lost or not used in the shelter you . must leave.
No one is getting a citation for being in overflow instead of the shelter as long as the shelter is full. To force one person out who wants to be in the shelter to ensure that there are only reserved folks in the shelter is trifling. There is no clear advantage there one way or the other.
The only rule I see on the subject is that if someone with a reservation wants to stay in the shelter, a thru hiker must give up the space. This language would seem to leave plenty of room for not giving up that space if it’s the reservation holder’s choice to not enforce.
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The Weasel
07-22-2019, 23:59
No one is getting a citation for being in overflow instead of the shelter as long as the shelter is full. To force one person out who wants to be in the shelter to ensure that there are only reserved folks in the shelter is trifling. There is no clear advantage there one way or the other.
The only rule I see on the subject is that if someone with a reservation wants to stay in the shelter, a thru hiker must give up the space. This language would seem to leave plenty of room for not giving up that space if it’s the reservation holder’s choice to not enforce.
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I love you people. Mrs. The Weasel has several expensive needs, and your fees will help me make them possible. Please try these tricks only in North Carolina, where I can appear in federal court with you. Visa/MC and other major cards accepted.
TW
LittleRock
07-23-2019, 09:22
Does anyone else here find it ironic that a guy named "The Weasel" is lecturing people on following the rules?
Madgoat, is there possibly a typo for day 4 & 5.
Day 4 - 26 to 46 - 13.5mi +4600ft -5300ft
Day 5 - 46 to Newfound Gap - 10.2mi +3800ft -2600ft
Do you intend to say campsite 68?
Campsite 46 is way down Indian Creek toward Deep Creek.
Yes, I meant 68. Sorry for the confusion. Not sure how I mixed that up.
grubbster
07-23-2019, 10:32
Does anyone else here find it ironic that a guy named "The Weasel" is lecturing people on following the rules?
Not ironic at all when you see his profession.
Ankle Bone
07-23-2019, 12:13
Not ironic at all when you see his profession.
Dang, you beat me to it
trailmercury
07-23-2019, 12:17
Not ironic at all when you see his profession.
All lawyers are weasels? You might be on to something. From now on any hiking lawyer I meet gets the trail name Weasel.
Nobody has violated user agreement in this thread re: commitment of illegal acts.
MtDoraDave
07-23-2019, 12:35
I love you people. Mrs. The Weasel has several expensive needs, and your fees will help me make them possible. Please try these tricks only in North Carolina, where I can appear in federal court with you. Visa/MC and other major cards accepted.
TW
I like this guy!
HooKooDooKu
07-23-2019, 12:45
Nobody has violated user agreement in this thread re: commitment of illegal acts.
You need the rest of that sentence...
4. Discussions involving how to commit illegal acts ... are forbidden.
This thread includes discussing the "rules" of Great Smoky Mountains National Park, and these "rules" are not simply suggestions or management desires. These "rules" carry the weight of law.
So any discussion on how to get away with not following these rules is a discussion on how to commit an illegal act.
The Weasel
07-23-2019, 16:02
I like this guy!
Spread the word. I can use the help.
Speaking as a disability lawyer, I would get a letter from a licensed MD confirming this, and then contact the Park HQ. Direct the letter/call to the Handicap Accommodation office. I suggest providing assurances that you will have non-destructive collars to tie to trees and get exact locations set out. They will have very appropriate safety concerns about scavenging animals where you set up, including bears, so you should address those concerns up front. Frankly, speaking as a backpacker, I have some problems with it: (1) It's a dumb idea; if your bones are so bad that you can't pad yourself, it raises medical questions about whether you should be out there in the first place. (2) It sets a poor example with others in the shelters, some of whom will resent you even if they shouldn't, since you're basically getting a guaranteed spot at the shelter. (3) It's potentially dangerous, as noted. But, legally, the Park has to provide a reasonable accommodation, if you can establish medical necessity.
TW
Yeah, similar to all those who do GSMNP with 'necessary' emotional support dogs, cats, and ferrets. :-?
HooKooDooKu
07-24-2019, 14:49
Yeah, similar to all those who do GSMNP with 'necessary' emotional support dogs, cats, and ferrets. :-?
While you might be able to get on a plane with an "emotional support dog", you're not going to be able to legally take an emotional support dog in the GSMNP back country.
Rewind a few years ago and the park service didn't allow animals of any kind to be taken into the back country. But then word came down from Washington that the park service was to comply with ADA rules and regulations.
But the ADA only applies to "service animals". That means the animal has to be able to perform a task for the disabled individual... emotional support animals to NOT fall under the ADA.
I started to question why emotional support animals are even allowed on planes since they are not covered by ADA. But I googled the subject and apparently there was a law passed known as ACAA (Air Carrier Access Act) that specifically includes emotional support animals.
The Weasel
07-24-2019, 16:02
While you might be able to get on a plane with an "emotional support dog", you're not going to be able to legally take an emotional support dog in the GSMNP back country.
Rewind a few years ago and the park service didn't allow animals of any kind to be taken into the back country. But then word came down from Washington that the park service was to comply with ADA rules and regulations.
But the ADA only applies to "service animals". That means the animal has to be able to perform a task for the disabled individual... emotional support animals to NOT fall under the ADA.
I started to question why emotional support animals are even allowed on planes since they are not covered by ADA. But I googled the subject and apparently there was a law passed known as ACAA (Air Carrier Access Act) that specifically includes emotional support animals.
As an attorney with a 100% disability (deaf, but largely corrected by cochlear implants) who has litigated major handicap/animal cases, this is pretty much gospel: (1) ONLY trained (and recognized) dogs are "service animals" under ADA and similar laws, and ONLY for blind and deaf handicappers. (2) "Assistance animals" such as untrained dogs, cats and the rest are not generally covered by any specific law. (3) Airlines only are required to recognize these principles, and allow other animals only to minimize confrontations.
While exceptions exist, it's not as "free and easy" as people think.
TW
The Weasel
07-24-2019, 16:10
Not ironic at all when you see his profession.
Jam it, dude.
Yeah, not only am I "The Weasel" (not A weasel, but "The Weasel") and an attorney, but that's how I got my trail name, not by self-anointing as a lot of lowlifes seem to do: In 2000 I was going to meet Joe Tallant (who became my best trail friend from meeting here on WB) in February to start at Springer. A few weeks before we were to start, I called his daughter to ask for him, and he was ill. She wasn't sure who "Russ Boltz" was, so I said, "I'm the lawyer from Michigan who's gonna hike with Joe." That led her to exclaim, "Oh! You're the weasel he's always talking about." Hence the Trail Name.
As for the snark, yeah: Rules are there for reasons, and lawyers make a living out of people who think they're too smart to have to follow the rules that the rest of the world honors. Sorry about that. If everyone was a saint, me and my priest would be out of jobs. Until then, you folks can make us a pretty good living.
The Weasel
GAVA 2000
VAME 2019 and onwards
While exceptions exist, it's not as "free and easy" as people think.
well------the abuse of people claiming their dogs (or whatever) are service animals has seemed to increase...
ive seen way too many dogs at concerts i attend where the animal doesnt have a vest, yet the venue is letting them in as thats what the owner is telling them...
and these animals are not displaying the signs of a service animal-----as in, better trained than a normal pet...
same with other businesses...
last week, i was in a fast food establishment, and a lady brought her dog in...
she let it off leash and it wandered around the seating area....
clearly that dog was not a service animal but the restaurant let them in believing the owner...
The Weasel
07-24-2019, 16:14
There is a difference between "exceptions" and "not enforcing rules."
TW
Alligator
07-24-2019, 22:49
This isn't a service dog thread, that was a hijack by Dogwood. Stick to the thread topic please.
DownYonder
07-24-2019, 22:59
This isn't a service dog thread, that was a hijack by Dogwood. Stick to the thread topic please.
As the OP, please feel free to close this thread. I simply wanted to know if there is a route that can taken and I have my answer thanks to madgoat and rmitchell.
Alligator
07-24-2019, 23:14
Question sufficiently answered to OP's satisfaction.