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Old Grouse
08-09-2019, 12:44
In my experience ticks love to climb aboard on your lower leg and then work their way up to some moist out-of-the-way spot. Socks and/or gaiters treated with Permethrin are a good first defense. Darn Tough doesn't offer treated socks, but I notice that LL Bean does. (Of course you can treat them yourself or send them away for treatment.) I asked DT Customer Service about this and was told that they think the chemically treated wool degrades faster than untreated. I replied that I think a lot of folks would prefer to buy a new pair a little sooner if it reduced the risk of contracting one of several ugly tick-borne illnesses. What do you think? Would you be inclined to buy factory treated DT socks, even if maybe they didn't bear the lifetime guarantee?

Astro
08-09-2019, 12:50
I just treat my socks the same time as I treat my shirts, pants, and pack.

Feral Bill
08-09-2019, 13:28
If I was selling socks guaranteed to not wear out, I would not treat them either, assuming the treatment in fact shortens sock life.

Dogwood
08-09-2019, 14:36
I asked DT Customer Service about this and was told that they think the chemically treated wool degrades faster than untreated.

First I've heard of this. Hmm?

I've heard stated repeatedly permethrin will not damage fabrics or fibers.

Five Tango
08-09-2019, 14:47
They probably do not want the liability of selling clothing treated with poison.

Night Train
08-09-2019, 15:42
Not that I don't trust treated clothing from the manufacturer, I'd rather do it myself.

LazyLightning
08-09-2019, 18:08
treat your head gear to!! (hat, buff)

that's key to keeping bugs away from you face, it's like a shield, I can't believe how good that stuff works.

is it bad to spray clothing straight with the 10% stuff if you let it dry completely before wearing? (the ready to spray stuff is 0.5%)

Traillium
08-09-2019, 22:21
BTW, we cannot legally buy even .5% permethrin here in Canada without an agricultural pesticide licence (or a more advanced pesticide licence).

So short of getting permethrin sent across the border (which is possible), I have not got a ready source of permethrin. Until a recent discovery …

At a garden centre, I found .25% permethrin spray for use as a crack spray, i.e., for spraying along foundations, where it works by being a dried residual pesticide. In fact there are quite a few major brands available, both as pump sprays or as compressed sprays.

I bought one brand of pump spray, and tried it on various surfaces, including stone, wood, and clean old shoes and socks. I did what I have done in the past using the .5% Sawyer spray. There was no residual oiliness, and no unusual odour.

So I now use that readily available .25% permethrin spray to treat my socks and shoes and hat (in addition to the Insect-Shield-treated pants and shirts we can now legally buy here in Canada). Every 2-3 weeks, I refresh the dosage on my shoes and socks.

Phew!

martinb
08-10-2019, 10:06
I've been using permethrin on my DT socks for at least two years with no noticeable degradation of performance.

fastfoxengineering
08-10-2019, 11:27
I asked DT Customer Service about this and was told that they think the chemically treated wool degrades faster than untreated.

First I've heard of this. Hmm?

I've heard stated repeatedly permethrin will not damage fabrics or fibers. In context to you spray on permethrin or insect shield? I think insect shield has disclaimers on their website stating that their process can shrink clothes. So maybe it can damage wool?

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk

colorado_rob
08-10-2019, 11:36
I always have treated my DT socks with permethrin, for obvious reasons. All I know, not being able to compare with untreated ones, is that two pair of treated DT socks will last an entire AT hike, and they are still usable after.

I personally don't see a chemical mechanism where permethrin will shorten a wool socks life, at least not significantly enough to worry about. I also agree that self-treating is probably preferable to factory treating, which would have to be refreshed anyway, meaning you'll be self-treating later anyway. So easy to do. Trivial, in fact. Spray, let dry, wash hands, done.

Five Tango
08-10-2019, 12:07
Apparently there will never be an end to the tick menace. https://www.cdc.gov/ticks/longhorned-tick/index.html

fastfoxengineering
08-10-2019, 20:45
I always have treated my DT socks with permethrin, for obvious reasons. All I know, not being able to compare with untreated ones, is that two pair of treated DT socks will last an entire AT hike, and they are still usable after.

I personally don't see a chemical mechanism where permethrin will shorten a wool socks life, at least not significantly enough to worry about. I also agree that self-treating is probably preferable to factory treating, which would have to be refreshed anyway, meaning you'll be self-treating later anyway. So easy to do. Trivial, in fact. Spray, let dry, wash hands, done.I kinda agree. I've purchased insect shield treated clothes because i always thought it was superior. For a thru hike. That might be the case due to convenience. But now I'm in the habbit of hitting my stuff with spray on regularly for shorter trips. I feel good about spraying a fresh coating of the stuff before a week long trip. Are you exploring New England yet?

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Time Zone
08-10-2019, 22:44
In context to you spray on permethrin or insect shield? I think insect shield has disclaimers on their website stating that their process can shrink clothes. So maybe it can damage wool?


FWIW I had 3-4 pr of DT socks given the Insect Shield treatment by the IS folks in Greensboro NC. They never mentioned anything about their treatment possibly degrading fabrics. If anything I think the opposite representation was made.

My DT socks did come back smaller! This is not surprising in retrospect. They are made of wool, and the treatment is made "permanent" (which they define as 70 washings) by a very high heat drying cycle. Anyone who has ever washed a wool sweater and put it in the dryer would not be surprised by this outcome.

The socks are still wearable and useful. However, I would buy a size up next time, if I was sending them off for this treatment.

Wise Old Owl
08-10-2019, 23:29
They probably do not want the liability of selling clothing treated with poison. Clearly, you are unaware that insects and mammals are not the same thing. Our nerve system is based in potassium and a little sodium. When you consume a Banana and its better than a cup of coffee, it is so slow absorbing that 6 hours plus it helps drivers go further, than caffeine. Insects are sodium based and the bugs drop fairly quickly when exposed to dry Permethrin. wet not dry Permethrin will kill a cat. Here in the USA - some military clothing is soaked in Permethrin to avoid jungle fever, mosquitoes, and other nasty's I have treated not soaked my hammock. At some point feel free to wrap your head around this. DO you want to be exposed to Encephalitis, West Nile , Rocky Mountain? I have been exposed to West Nile and My dad and I have lived a month with Rocky mountain. Yes treated clothing is a good answer. Getting up in the morning without pain is priceless. There is a better answer I have over the years discussed the virtues of DWO, but it only lasts two hours today I know that COLMANS INSECT SPRAY with one morning application lasts 8+hours. Spray those socks!
Permethrin

Dogwood
08-11-2019, 01:10
In context to you spray on permethrin or insect shield? I think insect shield has disclaimers on their website stating that their process can shrink clothes. So maybe it can damage wool?

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk

Isn't factory applied Insect Shield washed or soaked into the fabric? Or, is it sprayed on? If sprayed on I would assume that is similar to appropriate DIY permethrin applications. If factory applied I wonder if the garment proactively undergoes heat treatment? If so depending on the application method I can see how that might affect a fabric's traits. In the end I'm not going to arm chair assume why DT said that if that's being communicated clearly in it's entirety.

I do treat socks with Permethrin and rely on Insect Shield sometimes for part of my repellency.

If I ever get on Naked & Afraid Third Wheel I hope the other two contestants have a machete and fire starter as I'm bringing permethrin to the S American or African jungle.

4eyedbuzzard
08-11-2019, 08:49
They probably do not want the liability of selling clothing treated with poison.Possibly. But topical permethrin product application and contact is tolerated well by humans. It is used at 5% (and even greater concentrations under medical care) in the treatment of head and body lice and other parasite treatments, like scabies. It is used at even higher concentrations on animals such as horses, dogs, etc. for fly and parasite control. It is, however, toxic to cats until dry, and is toxic in pretty much all forms I believe to aquatic critters like fish and amphibians - so be careful where you spray or dispose of any liquid treatment solution to avoid contaminating water that might run off into groundwater. Does it have any negative consequences for humans? Maybe mild ones in hypersensitive people. But for most, it's better than getting the diseases the pests can transmit.

Dogwood
08-11-2019, 09:36
it's better than getting the diseases the pests can transmit.

That's what western M.D's said and still say about prescribing antibiotics for every sniffle, sneeze, and scratchy throat.

Midwest Mike
08-11-2019, 10:10
For me, as with most of you, permethrin is a no-brainer. But don't assume it is risk-free. There was a study showing that people who use permethrin occupationally had a higher risk of Parkinson's. That's not a reason not to use it -- obviously, the exposure for us is much lower -- but for me it is a good reason to have my clothing treated. Treating it means still lower exposure as opposed to spraying.

Five Tango
08-11-2019, 10:57
Clearly, you are unaware that insects and mammals are not the same thing. Our nerve system is based in potassium and a little sodium. When you consume a Banana and its better than a cup of coffee, it is so slow absorbing that 6 hours plus it helps drivers go further, than caffeine. Insects are sodium based and the bugs drop fairly quickly when exposed to dry Permethrin. wet not dry Permethrin will kill a cat. Here in the USA - some military clothing is soaked in Permethrin to avoid jungle fever, mosquitoes, and other nasty's I have treated not soaked my hammock. At some point feel free to wrap your head around this. DO you want to be exposed to Encephalitis, West Nile , Rocky Mountain? I have been exposed to West Nile and My dad and I have lived a month with Rocky mountain. Yes treated clothing is a good answer. Getting up in the morning without pain is priceless. There is a better answer I have over the years discussed the virtues of DWO, but it only lasts two hours today I know that COLMANS INSECT SPRAY with one morning application lasts 8+hours. Spray those socks!
Permethrin



For the record-I am aware of the difference.Never said I don't treat my clothing and have dipped my hammock also.Said manufacturer likely does not want to deal with the issue.We live in a litigious society.Ask McDonald's.

Old Grouse
08-11-2019, 15:39
Here is exactly what the DT rep said: “We do not offer treated socks because chemicals such as Permethrin and deet [sic] are known to damage the wool fibers and compromise the structural integrity of the sock.”

This was a member of DTs customer support team, fyi.

Ethesis
08-11-2019, 16:12
I asked DT Customer Service about this and was told that they think the chemically treated wool degrades faster than untreated.

First I've heard of this. Hmm?

I've heard stated repeatedly permethrin will not damage fabrics or fibers.

Ive got 710+ miles on my treated socks with no apparent wear.

However, treated socks would be more expensive to reiki and are more likely to be bought by high mileage hikers.

JC13
08-12-2019, 08:26
The pair I treated before my last hike feel "crunchier" than my otherwise identical pair of Darn Tough socks. Maybe a coincidence?

FreeGoldRush
08-12-2019, 08:36
Here is exactly what the DT rep said: “We do not offer treated socks because chemicals such as Permethrin and deet [sic] are known to damage the wool fibers and compromise the structural integrity of the sock.”
Every Lyme disease patient will proudly tell you how they preserved the structural integrity of the fibers in their Darn Tough socks by not treating them against ticks.

peakbagger
08-12-2019, 09:28
Just because a rep on the phone gives an answer does not mean that's an official answer. I expect logistically Darn Tuff does not want to introduce a pesticide into their production plant and distribution network if they do not have to. During the factory open house/fall sale, the public walks right through the factory. I did not see any industrial washing and drying equipment that would be required to treat socks. It looked to me like the socks go directly from balls of fiber in the knitting room through a line of very high tech high speed machines then through minor packaging equipment and into a cardboard box. They are making many private label products some which contain strictly natural fibers which no doubt might be sold to customers that would object to permethrin being on the product or any residues. Since all the production is in one factory it would be difficult to segregate the production lines and cross contamination would occur. This is fundamentally a nightmare to handle in a production environment so I expect they have made the wise choice not to participate in this niche market.

One of the reasons Cabot exists is they are long term supplier to the US military due to "buy America" legislation, the Darn Tuff line is reportedly a civilian offshoot of lesson learned from the military socks. If the US military wanted permethrin treatment I have no doubt they would figure out a way to add it but to date the US seems to believe in adding it after the fact in the field. This is in keeping with general good practice with pesticides, rather than treat everything in case it might be needed, its far better to treat specific batches where the benefits outweigh any risks.

colorado_rob
08-12-2019, 14:15
Is anyone seriously considering NOT treating their DT socks with permethrin because of some vague reference to maybe some slight degradation to sock life? Sure hope not, those New England ticks can be voracious.

AND, even if permethrin somehow does slightly degrade sock life, who cares if you only get 2000 miles out of a pair vs. 2500, especially when you get a free replacement pair later anyway?

I can honestly say I've never found a tick embedded on my body, and I've hiked the entire AT, and about half of it again, but of course, my socks, underwear, pant legs, hat and shirt collars are always treated with permethrin.

Dogwood
08-12-2019, 16:08
Thx for reducing my need for key slapping.;)

lonehiker
08-12-2019, 18:31
Ever since I read about permethrin I've treated the upper portion of my DT socks. Perhaps it does shorten the life expectancy as I'm only getting ~1,000 miles out of each pair... FWIW, if I get that type of mileage out of a pair I do not have them honor their guarantee. I just buy a new pair.

MichaelK7
08-12-2019, 18:54
I just treat my clothes and gear myself. So far, it seems to be working well.

Five Tango
08-12-2019, 19:20
Someone from hammock forums steered me toward JT Eatons permethrin because it is actually labeled for clothing.Not saying I can tell any difference from Martin's 10% which I have used in the past but it does appear appropriate to me to go with something properly labeled when it is available.I like the fact that I do not have to mix anything as JT Eatons is ready made.All you have to do is shake it up.I do put mine in a spray bottle and wet the fabric well in my garage away from children and pets and let it completely dry.I treat all my clothes except for the boxer shorts.I might start treating the waistband though.

Eatons is also labeled to treat your luggage for bed bugs which I have not yet done but I found that to be interesting when I read the label.Keep it away from children,cats,and dogs under 12 weeks of age.It is highly toxic to bees and aquatic creatures so beware of runoff.

No,I'm not worried about sock life or guarantees either.

MtDoraDave
08-13-2019, 07:08
For me, as with most of you, permethrin is a no-brainer. But don't assume it is risk-free. There was a study showing that people who use permethrin occupationally had a higher risk of Parkinson's. That's not a reason not to use it -- obviously, the exposure for us is much lower -- but for me it is a good reason to have my clothing treated. Treating it means still lower exposure as opposed to spraying.

A friend of mine's hubby is a wildlife officer. Occupationally, he's in the woods regularly (daily?) catching poachers and whatever else they do. His Lyme disease went un-diagnosed long enough that its effects are in his brain and seem permanent.

I know Parkinson's is no joke, but even if this study came from a peer reviewed (medically reliable) source, I bet my friend's family would accept the "higher risk" of Parkinson's over the results of long term Lyme.

I'll go with the Permethrin treatment.

I don't know if I'll ever be able to do a thru hike, but for me it's easy enough to treat everything prior to a section hike. Dunk, ring out excess, hang to dry. Unless it's doing it's Florida rain thing, then I throw them in the dryer until they are only damp and lay them out on the clothing rack* in the garage to dry the rest of the way. Backpack, tent mesh, sleeping bag, and sometimes boots get a spray misting.

My darn tough socks have been treated many times. Put wool in the dryer, it shrinks. I thought my 4 year old DT's were still doing well except for the elasticity around the tops going away - until I wore a new pair I got for Christmas on my last section hike. The new pair kept my feet much happier than the original pairs I had bought. So, like shoes, even if they don't look bad, sometimes they should be replaced.

* car under a car cover

Time Zone
08-13-2019, 08:39
it's better than getting the diseases the pests can transmit.

That's what western M.D's said and still say about prescribing antibiotics for every sniffle, sneeze, and scratchy throat.
Actually, they don't (even accounting for your hyperbole).

I would agree with you if it was true, but it's not - you can check CDC guidelines.

trailmercury
08-13-2019, 10:13
Actually, they don't (even accounting for your hyperbole).

I would agree with you if it was true, but it's not - you can check CDC guidelines.

Agreed, "we" absolutely do not prescribe antibiotics for every sniffle, sneeze, or scratchy throat. The MD's Dogwood is seeing must be dinosaurs that don't keep up on the literature of the pasty 20 years.

( I'm a Family Practice physician in a relatively Lyme-heavy region)

Permethrin either as a pretreatment or consumer applied, is recommended as a suitable measure for Lyme disease prevention.

Turk6177
08-13-2019, 13:29
You took the words right out of my mouth. Lifetime warranty.

Old Grouse
08-13-2019, 13:42
If DT is truly concerned about Permethrin treatment degrading the sock's life to the point of endangering their lifetime warranty, they could offer a reduced warranty for their treated items. If you wanted factory treated DT socks, would you really not buy them if they offered "only" a five year (or whatever) warranty instead of lifetime?

Dogwood
08-13-2019, 17:43
Actually, they don't (even accounting for your hyperbole).

I would agree with you if it was true, but it's not - you can check CDC guidelines.


Agreed, "we" absolutely do not prescribe antibiotics for every sniffle, sneeze, or scratchy throat. The MD's Dogwood is seeing must be dinosaurs that don't keep up on the literature of the pasty 20 years.

( I'm a Family Practice physician in a relatively Lyme-heavy region)

Permethrin either as a pretreatment or consumer applied, is recommended as a suitable measure for Lyme disease prevention.

So, attack me personally defending the western medical industry's long time approach to over prescribing antibiotics or other drugs indiscriminately?


@Time Zone

I did check the CDC. Perhaps, it is you who has not? Not Hyberbole! https://www.cdc.gov/features/antibioticuse/index.html You scathingly personally attack me yet again Time Zone with your vehemence despite my continued cordiality defending inappropriate prescribing of drugs by the western medical community as you've done in threatening PM's. Perhaps, I can remind you of your callous diatribes laced with profanity by publicly listing your PM's here? I still have them?

@Time Zone and TrailMercury

Then why would the CDC, Mayo Clinic, PEW Institute, US National Library of Medicine, and many others in the western medical healthcare industry, and medical and Big Pharma watch dog groups, which include Federal and state groups be so concerned about the prescribing of antibiotics and antibiotic stewardship at point of prescription within the last three yrs? There has been a downward trend in the past 6-7 yrs but that is not a dinosaur duration in the western medical community, AND considering the continued harm occurring from inappropriate prescribing... that again, your own industry acknowledges currently occurs...just as others, including law enforcement organizations has with with various prescribed drugs. Typically, altering trends in the western medical community can take a decade or more to be realized as it can be slow to adopt new procedures. What people know, even highly educated rational people such as M.D.s, doesn't equate with what an industry does as a whole.

https://www.cdc.gov/antibiotic-use/stewardship-report/index.html

https://ce.mayo.edu/sites/ce.mayo.edu/files/Session%20Slides%20Lessard%2011-29-16.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6062849/

https://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/assets/2017/03/antibiotic_resistance_annual_report_329.pdf

JNI64
08-13-2019, 18:16
So, attack me personally defending the western medical industry's long time approach to over prescribing antibiotics or other drugs indiscriminately?


@Time Zone

I did check the CDC. Perhaps, it is you who has not? Not Hyberbole! https://www.cdc.gov/features/antibioticuse/index.html You scathingly personally attack me yet again Time Zone with your vehemence despite my continued cordiality defending inappropriate prescribing of drugs by the western medical community as you've done in threatening PM's. Perhaps, I can remind you of your callous diatribes laced with profanity by publicly listing your PM's here? I still have them?

@Time Zone and TrailMercury

Then why would the CDC, Mayo Clinic, PEW Institute, US National Library of Medicine, and many others in the western medical healthcare industry, and medical and Big Pharma watch dog groups, which include Federal and state groups be so concerned about the prescribing of antibiotics and antibiotic stewardship at point of prescription within the last three yrs? There has been a downward trend in the past 6-7 yrs but that is not a dinosaur duration in the western medical community, AND considering the continued harm occurring from inappropriate prescribing... that again, your own industry acknowledges currently occurs...just as others, including law enforcement organizations has with with various prescribed drugs. Typically, altering trends in the western medical community can take a decade or more to be realized as it can be slow to adopt new procedures. What people know, even highly educated rational people such as M.D.s, doesn't equate with what an industry does as a whole.

https://www.cdc.gov/antibiotic-use/stewardship-report/index.html

https://ce.mayo.edu/sites/ce.mayo.edu/files/Session%20Slides%20Lessard%2011-29-16.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6062849/

https://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/assets/2017/03/antibiotic_resistance_annual_report_329.pdf

Ooooouuuuuccccchhhhhh!!!

MuadDale
08-19-2019, 08:57
We live in a litigious society.Ask McDonald's.

McDonald's had it coming. They knowingly sold coffee brewed and stored at temperatures hot enough to cause third degree burns in three to seven seconds (180-190 degrees, this was company policy), served it in containers inadequately designed to protect the consumer from inadvertent spills, and had received over 700 claims and suits prior to the "big one". They knew their coffee was too hot to be served in crappy containers for over 10 years and continued to sell it.

The complainant in the big suit suffered burns requiring skin grafts to her inner thighs and elsewhere. She was initially awarded damages equal to two days of revenue McDonald's made selling coffee, but this amount was reduced and the final amount she received was reached via a confidential agreement between her and the restaurant.

McDonald's has since vastly improved the cups and lids they serve their coffee in.

Consumers have agency and responsibility, but sellers do as well. Personally, I don't buy McDonald's coffee, not because I'm afraid of burns, but because it's not that great and it's way too hot for me and takes forever to cool off enough to enjoy.