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McPick
03-06-2006, 17:36
The 'Trekking Poles vs, the Trail' forum topic, initiated by Hammock Engineer, (ended on 2-6) intrigued me. That thread had 82 replies and was viewed 1622 times. Obviously there is much interest in this subject.

My hiking experiences are limited compared to some who replied to the thread, but I can say that I never contemplated using poles until I read this forum topic. I wondered about hiking poles’ practicality and functionality.

<O:p
There is an excellent hiking trail close to my home. It’s densely wooded and has numerous up and down hill sections and various sized creeks and water sheds. The trail is a 5-mile loop that starts off, rather abruptly, down hill. I have several pairs of well-used ski poles, so I decided to try the poles on that trail.

<O:p
The weather in northern Missouri has been unseasonably warm this winter, but a recent cold snap plummeted the temp to below 0 degrees F, for several days. It rained just prior to the temperature drop so everything got soaked and froze.

<O:pSeveral days later, as the temperature climbed, I decided to hike the trail with the poles. When I started down the hill I realized I didn’t mind carrying them. They felt like old pals from the slopes… While making my way down the hill, I used the poles almost like a breaking system. I didn’t grip them, like when skiing, but rather held the ends of the poles in the palms of my hands. That way I could place them, put my weight directly on the top of the pole, and take a step. I learned to place the pole, or poles, then step, instead of visa-versa.

<O:p
The extreme surface of the tail, leaves, dirt, sticks, etc. had dried somewhat, but I quickly determined the dry features masked and insulated the real treat that lay beneath. Accumulated, hidden moisture, both wet and still frozen, created a very real and dangerous hazard. I was genuinely pleased I had the poles. Sometimes I felt like I was in a safe, 3-point stance, like on a ladder, while climbing, or in other similar precarious balancing situations.

<O:p
Further along, it occurred to me that I wasn’t consciously watching the trail as much as I had when I hiked without poles. While using them I enjoyed the surrounding views for longer periods of time before looking down to scan the trail ahead. Once, I accidentally stepped into a collapsed and camouflaged mole tunnel. My ankle twisted slightly and my foot slid to the side. It happened in a flash. I don’t know if I would have fallen, but I do know that, without thinking, I planted my pole and easily caught myself. Later, I noticed exaggerated sized footprints in the mud where other hikers had slipped.

<O:p
I did try to see if my pole tips left marks in the trail. However, in the areas where there wasn’t much leaf cover, the ground was hard and unaffected by them. I was able to avoid the muddy areas by walking off to one side of the trail in the leaves.

<O:p
I did notice that one mountain bike’s knobby tires leave bazillions of tiny holes in exposed areas on the trail. Footprints left by deer, coyotes and other hikers are plentiful. And when a flock of wild turkeys starts to turn over leaves on or near the trail with their big feet, they REALLY tear things up! Still, I wondered if there might be a practical solution to some of the pole-tip damage concerns described in the thread.

<O:p
I decided to visit my local hardware store. I didn’t know what I was looking for. I just wanted to look at stuff. The challenge was to find a durable “something” that would match the outside diameter of the lower, slightly tapered, end of my poles and then have the outside diameter of that “something” match the inside diameter of something else.

<O:p
I wandered into the plumbing section and looked at everything. Finally I spied a black plastic fitting that is made to have a hose clamped to one end. The other end is a ½ inch (38 cents) or ¾ inch (47 cents) iron pipe threaded male adapter. The threaded end can be screwed into a valve or other female threaded fitting. This fitting is called a Flex Pipe Adapter. They are used in yard irrigation systems, for example.

<O:p
The interior of adapter (where the water flows) fit nicely around the tapered end of my pole, leaving the threaded part at the bottom. I tapped it down and it was VERY attached to the pole. So far, so good… Next, I went over to the rubber-baby-buggy-bumper section of the store and found those round, rubber boots, (not plastic) similar to those that fit on the bottom of crutches or round table legs. I was amazed and pleased that those boots come in various sizes, including those that fit snugly over both the ½ inch, (49 cents) and the ¾ inch, (59 cents) threaded portion of the adapters. For me, it simply became a matter of what size boot I wanted on the bottom of my poles. I chose the ½ inch.

<O:p
I put a metal washer (5 or 6 cents) into the bottom of each rubber boot, just in case the tips of the poles protruded through the lower end of the adapters and touched the bottom inside of the rubber boots. The washers keep the tips of the poles from piercing the rubber and also helps distribute the weight of the adapters more evenly around the inside of the boots. I could have put a rubber washer, or thick o-ring, between the bottom of the poles’ baskets and the top of the adapters, but the ends of my poles don’t protrude below the bottom of the fitting, so I bagged that idea. The cost was less than a buck, per pole.

<O:p
I’ve hiked 30 or 40 miles with these rubber boots on the end of my poles. In fact, I had to go look at my poles, before I wrote this, to see if they were still there. I’d forgotten about them after the first few hikes. They are wonderful. However, they absolutely DO NOT work in ice! And the few times my poles slipped have usually been because of my poor placement of the pole. I‘ve learned to place the pole and twist it slightly before I trust the placement in slippery areas. I can usually tell then if the pole is going to move or not.

In soft mud the poles do leave a larger sized hole than what just the end of the tip would leave. However, for me, this pole adaptation has worked very well. The parts are inexpensive and durable. They are readily available at most hardware stores and weigh practically nothing. In fact, the added weight on my poles was offset somewhat because I cut an inch or so off the top of the poles to compensate for the increased length due to the new adapter fittings and boots.

<O:p
Here are a few more tips. The inside diameter of Flex Male Adapters varies slightly from manufacturer to manufacturer. If you discover, for example, that black plastic fittings are too tight or too loose, go to a different store. Look for gray plastic and try those. Of course, there’s always duct tape to help.

And for those who just gotta have premier, top-notch equipment… Check out the brass plumbing fittings’ department for flex adapters. I think you’ll be agreeably surprised!

<O:p
Perhaps this idea has been suggested previously. Anyone know? Please contact me if this system works for, or helps you.<O:p

Lilred
03-06-2006, 19:04
It sounds like you got yourself all hooked up pretty good. Although, your concern for damaging the trail has seem to been put on the back burner. I have hiking poles and for quite awhile I had used the rubber attachments on them because I too was worried about trail damage. More damage occurred using the rubber tips. When the trail is wet, which is much of the time, those rubber tips sink in leaving quarter size holes behind. Leaving the tips off, the poles only create a straw sized hole. I know you're using ski poles, but if you ever decide to buy hiking poles, they have graphite on the tips which help to grip rock and roots. Your rubber tips will slip right off those. Be careful. I didn't know about the graphite till the Leki guy at Trail Days told me about it. He suggested I put the rubber tips away if I wanted a surer grip on the trail. Just a little FYI.

Ridge
03-06-2006, 19:14
Good post. I too use a similar tip, except I polyurethane cement everything in place for a longer lasting tip. The hikers who use the steel tips are going to do just that, use those tips. The trail damage, chipped and scratched rocks, damaged stair threads, doesn't matter to them. Their attitude is let someone else worry about it, or they deny any damage being done at all.

SGTdirtman
03-06-2006, 21:48
Sorry to stray off topic here but whats the big concern with the poles "damaging" trails... afterall isnt a "trail" basicly a damaged section of wilderness thats kept beat down by people walking over it constantly? what are the poles doing to hurt anything?

I'm not being rude just curious what the concern is?

weary
03-06-2006, 21:55
Sorry to stray off topic here but whats the big concern with the poles "damaging" trails... afterall isnt a "trail" basicly a damaged section of wilderness thats kept beat down by people walking over it constantly? what are the poles doing to hurt anything? ?
A lot. They are making that "damaged section of wilderness" even more damaged.

But I agree some questions will never be resolved. "If you have to ask, you won't understand," someone once said on another topic.

Weary

Ridge
03-06-2006, 21:56
Sorry to stray off topic here but whats the big concern with the poles "damaging" trails... afterall isnt a "trail" basicly a damaged section of wilderness thats kept beat down by people walking over it constantly? what are the poles doing to hurt anything?

I'm not being rude just curious what the concern is?

True the trail is a scar across the land. But, that scar has to be maintained or it becomes impassible. If you talk to trail maintenance, other than myself, they will tell you that the steel tips do more damage than staffs or sticks with rubber tips. It's true if you place a staff in mud it makes a larger hole, but most of the time people try to hit a solid piece of ground. The steel tips will scratch, chip stones, will tear away at stair threads and will punch holes in solid ground that the rubber tips don't. The more holes the looser the soil and the higher chance of erosion. You will not see an article in Backpacker Magazine about this kind of damage because Ad dollars from the expensive hiking poll company's is just too good.

rgarling
03-07-2006, 10:06
They are making that "damaged section of wilderness" even more damaged.

yes, I'm sure you can make a case that the trail is "damaged" by the use of poles; however, perhaps rather than damaged, you should just use the word changed. It is far from evident that these changes constitute damage.


"If you have to ask, you won't understand,"
How self righteous do you have to be to believe this?


You will not see an article in Backpacker Magazine about this kind of damage because Ad dollars from the expensive hiking poll company's is just too good.
Yeah, it probably is a big conspiracy... or maybe you are one of the few that sees the truth of the matter.

weary
03-07-2006, 10:49
yes, I'm sure you can make a case that the trail is "damaged" by the use of poles; however, perhaps rather than damaged, you should just use the word changed. It is far from evident that these changes constitute damage.
How self righteous do you have to be to believe this? .....
For those of us who have spent a lot of time maintaining trails over the years, some things are self evidence. If you poke a hole in a trail and after a while the hole disappears, it means erosion has occurred. The loosened soil moves down slope in the first rain. Soil above the hole moves down to fill the hole.

The impact continues week after week, year after year, as more holes are poked into the soil. Farmers know this. That's why they use minimum till and no till methods whereever practical.

There is no question about the damage. There is a question in the minds of some about how serious it is. And there seems to be a lot of hikers wedded to the use of sharp pointed hiking poles who can't bear the thought that they are causing damage so they simply deny that damage is happening.

I have found that a blunt hiking stick with a soft rubber crutch tip provides me with all the protection of knees and freedom from falls that I need. In some situations, I have found, that my wooden stick with crutch tip is superior to sharp pointed poles, especially on rocks.

I mention these things from time to time because I like to keep these debates honest, at least. As long as the Leki fad continues, the damage will continue.

I have no hope of changing use. But I suspect it will occur on its own as people gradually discover what almost all hikers prior to the late 80s already knew -- that it's perfectly safe and healthy for most to walk in the woods without artificial supports.

I find the now almost universal belief that hiking poles are a necessity totally illogical. I now carry a wooden stick because my sense of balance has deteriorated. I find it difficult to believe that somehow the entire hiking population has developed the same affliction -- while still in their teens and 20s, no less.

Weary

rgarling
03-07-2006, 11:54
some things are self evident. If you poke a hole in a trail and after a while the hole disappears, it means erosion has occurred. The loosened soil moves down slope in the first rain. Soil above the hole moves down to fill the hole.

Your observation that holes disappear doesn't mean erosion has occurred. For example, take a box of dirt, and punch a hole. In time, the hole will fill in. No erosion occurred. Contrived yes, just as is your conclusion that holes consitute "damage".


There is no question about the damage. There is a question in the minds of some about how serious it is.
OK. Assuming there is "damage", this would be the key question. When you have created a trail by sawing, digging, constructing vents, steps, lateral supports, etc how damaging is a straw sized hole punched adjacent to the foot tread? Kind of like worrying about getting your door dinged in a parking lot, after someone has backed into it.

Regarding farming. I'm pretty sure they try to minimze tilling because they are trying to maintain soil health and maximize yield / efficiency. And this really isn't a good analogy, because tilling is not remotely the same as polling. And, assuming polling WAS similar to tilling, it would be analogous to strip tilling which has been shown to improve root growth.


that it's perfectly safe and healthy for most to walk in the woods without artificial supports.

here is a news flash for you. People use poles because they HELP, not because they are following a fad. You know they help, because you are using one yourself.

I'm not usually very contentious; however, your comments DO NOT serve to keep debates honest. I think they actually serve to cloud the issue. The fact that you have heard a lot of trail maintenance people say they think poles are damaging is repeating a rumor. Nothing more.

MacGyver2005
03-07-2006, 12:15
The tips on the end of Leki poles are not graphite or steel, they are carbide.

There are many points to be argued over damage to the trail from hiking poles, but one that is most often over looked is the scaring of rocks. The pole tips, being of material harder than rock, scars rock faces. When this is done with as much frequency as is seen on the Appalachian Trail it becomes a prominent, visible damage. Some feel that this "damage" to the rocks is just part of the trail and is no different than the "scar" that the trail is itself. Other, like myself, disagree since there are methods to avoid this. Many raise the point that you can get a better grip with the carbide tip than with a rubber foot. Again, there are those like myself that disagree...that's why the bottom of my shoes are not made out of carbide. ;)

Ridge
03-07-2006, 13:27
The tips on the end of Leki poles are not graphite or steel, they are carbide.............


car·bide: A hard material made of compacted binary compounds of carbon and heavy metals, used to make tools that cut metal.

If it will cut metal, must be harder than metal.

Ridge
03-07-2006, 13:40
...........OK. Assuming there is "damage", this would be the key question. When you have created a trail by sawing, digging, constructing vents, steps, lateral supports, etc how damaging is a straw sized hole punched adjacent to the foot tread? Kind of like worrying about getting your door dinged in a parking lot, after someone has backed into it.........


So "trail maintenance" is now "damage". You sound like the mountain biker clubs who want to turn the AT and other "walking only" trails into a bike track. The trail bikes also do the trail good, I guess all the damage I've seen and repaired because of the hundreds of holes, not only in soil, but split stair threads, etc is my imagination. Not much we can do about the chipped and scratched rocks and stones on the trail, just imagine what they use to look like. Like I said in an earlier post, people who paid the big bucks for these "carbide tipped" poles are going to use them regardless.

hammock engineer
03-07-2006, 13:52
Glad I could spark an interest. I like your approach. The more I think about it, there is not one end all solution to this issue. I think metal tips, rubber tips, no poles all have their good and bad points.




I was able to avoid the muddy areas by walking off to one side of the trail in the leaves.
<O:p

Careful on this habbit. This is what causes a wider trail with tire track looking ruts. It sucks, but best for the trail to walk in the mud.

Ridge
03-07-2006, 14:07
...... This is what causes a wider trail with tire track looking ruts. It sucks, but best for the trail to walk in the mud.


This is what happens when a trail allows bikers on it, they go around a mud hole and the area becomes as big as a ball field. But, as they say, the trail bikes are good for the trail. Yea, cigarette smoking, kills cancer too.

rgarling
03-07-2006, 14:09
So "trail maintenance" is now "damage". You sound like the mountain biker clubs who want to turn the AT and other "walking only" trails into a bike track. The trail bikes also do the trail good,

Is it really that hard to concentrate on the points being made?


I guess all the damage I've seen and repaired because of the hundreds of holes, not only in soil, but split stair threads, etc is my imagination.

no, split stair treads are not your imagination; however, the cause of the splitting might be. Perhaps the imact of 10 thousand boot impacts weaken the tread. Perhaps the "damage" inflicted by the chainsaw used to flatten and cross-hatch the tread hastened that aging/rot. Perhaps they just get old and rot.


Not much we can do about the chipped and scratched rocks and stones on the trail, just imagine what they use to look like.
yes, its really not practical to do much else.

AbeHikes
03-07-2006, 14:45
OK. Assuming there is "damage", this would be the key question. When you have created a trail by sawing, digging, constructing vents, steps, lateral supports, etc how damaging is a straw sized hole punched adjacent to the foot tread? Kind of like worrying about getting your door dinged in a parking lot, after someone has backed into it.

I opted not to chime into this one last night, but the point I've quoted would me mine as well.

When does the levitation training start?

Lilred
03-07-2006, 20:48
I agree about the scarring of rocks, I hate to see that. I also don't like all that clicking when my poles do touch rocks, that is why I do my best to avoid planting my poles on rocks. If I'm hiking through a boulder field, I find it much easier to raise my poles and rock hop without using them. However, if I should slip and need that pole to catch myself from falling, I want it to grip that rock if that's what it lands on. It's a tool for my safety and comfort and I seriously doubt it will be the cause of the trail's demise.

SGTdirtman
03-07-2006, 20:53
I never shoulda opened my mouth...

Ridge
03-07-2006, 20:57
..........I seriously doubt it will be the cause of the trail's demise.


Yea, thats what everyone says. ie: "Whats a few holes going to hurt", "I'm not coming back this way, so whats a few scratches or chips on the rocks going to hurt" "My tax dollars paid for this trail, I deserve to use my $200 carbide tipped poles" Blah, blah, blah blah... I wish people would shut up making excuses and just continue to tear the trail up instead of doing the right thing.

weary
03-07-2006, 21:04
I never shoulda opened my mouth...
well. Maybe. But it wouldn't have helped. The nonsense would go on.

weary
03-07-2006, 21:10
Yea, thats what everyone says. ie: "Whats a few holes going to hurt", "I'm not coming back this way, so whats a few scratches or chips on the rocks going to hurt" "My tax dollars paid for this trail, I deserve to use my $200 carbide tipped poles" Blah, blah, blah blah... I wish people would shut up making excuses and just continue to tear the trail up instead of doing the right thing.
I agree completely, except perhaps the bit about scratching rocks. Poles do many damaging things, but scratching rocks is the least of them -- perhaps -- well really -- the most infinitesimally of things.

Weary

Ridge
03-07-2006, 21:28
I agree completely, except perhaps the bit about scratching rocks. Poles do many damaging things, but scratching rocks is the least of them -- perhaps -- well really -- the most infinitesimally of things.

Weary

Rocks in the Whites are an example of lots of use with the carbide tips, scratches are very noticeable. Pa rocks also show the damage. But, the scratches and chips are found all along the AT. On another note, crampons are worse and do a lot more of the same kind of damage.

weary
03-07-2006, 21:39
Rocks in the Whites are an example of lots of use with the carbide tips, scratches are very noticeable. Pa rocks also show the damage. But, the scratches and chips are found all along the AT. On another note, crampons are worse and do a lot more of the same kind of damage.
Except, of course, that crampons are a problem only for a few weeks each winter when the snow and ice on the summits are at a minimum.

I agree, rock scratches are an aesthetic problem. They offend our sense of wildness. I suspect no other creature experiences a similar offense.

Ridge
03-07-2006, 21:48
Except, of course, that crampons are a problem only for a few weeks each winter when the snow and ice on the summits are at a minimum................


In the Whites and other mountains on the AT the season for crampons and ice axes start in October and runs until the following spring at a minimum you're talking 5 months, not just a few weeks.

weary
03-07-2006, 22:22
In the Whites and other mountains on the AT the season for crampons and ice axes start in October and runs until the following spring at a minimum you're talking 5 months, not just a few weeks.
Okay. So what's your point? Are there any creatures damaged by scratches on rocks? Erosion of soils is a massive environmental problem, whether dealing with trails or no.

The failure of hikers to recognize this rather obvious fact, suggests to me that most are out for a challenge, an adventure, rather than for anything to do with the protection of wild resources for our children, grandchildren, and future generations forever.

Weary

Alligator
03-07-2006, 22:29
So "trail maintenance" is now "damage". You sound like the mountain biker clubs who want to turn the AT and other "walking only" trails into a bike track. The trail bikes also do the trail good, I guess all the damage I've seen and repaired because of the hundreds of holes, not only in soil, but split stair threads, etc is my imagination. Not much we can do about the chipped and scratched rocks and stones on the trail, just imagine what they use to look like. Like I said in an earlier post, people who paid the big bucks for these "carbide tipped" poles are going to use them regardless.
What do the other trail maintainers say in your club about trekking poles? I've heard some of the northern opinions.

Ridge
03-07-2006, 22:37
What do the other trail maintainers say in your club about trekking poles? I've heard some of the northern opinions.

All the trail maintainers I know are opposed to them, as well as cranpons or ice cleats. What say your northern maintainers?

Alligator
03-07-2006, 22:47
All the trail maintainers I know are opposed to them, as well as cranpons or ice cleats. What say your northern maintainers?
Weary relayed some of the concerns from I would guess MATC. I've heard yopu mention that you have done maintenance for many years. I might be interested in a project, which club do you work with?

weary
03-07-2006, 23:43
Weary relayed some of the concerns from I would guess MATC. I've heard yopu mention that you have done maintenance for many years. I might be interested in a project, which club do you work with?
Actually, Maine is pretty rocky, and our trails get relatively little use. Some maintainers are concerned. But the worse problems that I've seen have been in the south, where some trailsides a few years back looked like they had been worked over with a rototiller.

Weary

Mountain Man
03-08-2006, 00:16
I've never realized this was such a touchy subject. As a Maintainer myself I've never noticed a problem with hiking poles. (I use a pair of Leki's myself.) I guess the reason I've never noticed was because I was too busy picking up paper and all other kinds of trash, cleaning out water bars, cutting blow downs, cutting weeds etc. My point is it seems a real small thing compared to all the other things we have to deal with. Sure I've seen the holes left by hiking poles but have never noticed where it's caused a problem. I think our time would be better spent educating hikers about not throwing trash on the trail, not cutting switch backs, not cutting trees (stuff like that) and try to stop the ATV's and Bikes from getting on the trail. Every Spring it's unbelievable at the litter that we find on the Approach trail as well the AT and the shelters from "too heavy packs". I could go on and on, but little holes in the ground is the least of my worries.

Just my 2 cents worth

weary
03-08-2006, 10:05
....Every Spring it's unbelievable at the litter that we find on the Approach trail as well the AT and the shelters from "too heavy packs". I could go on and on, but little holes in the ground is the least of my worries. Just my 2 cents worth
There's no doubt that the litter problem is increasing again, after diminishing greatly in the 70s and 80s. I suspect Bryson's book that glorified littering and which essentially told hikers that litter was something to laugh about hasn't helped.

The switch from "Carry in, Carry out" to "leave no trace," I suspect may also be a reason. There is no such thing as not leaving a trace. Therefore it is a message easily tuned out by unthinking hikers.

There is no misunderstanding inherent in "Carry in, Carry out," which was the message that lead to the dramatic improvement in trail and campsite trash 35 years ago. Yeah, I know. "Leave No Trace," implies far more than carrying out the stuff you carried into the woods. But a message that isn't heard serves no purpose.

Back on topic: Loose soil erodes more easily than compacted soil. I mention this from time to time only in response to those who think it doesn't. I have no illusions about changing hiker practices.

Nor do I worry a great deal about it. I reserve my worries for things I have some hope of changing.

Weary

Alligator
03-08-2006, 11:04
...
Back on topic: Loose soil erodes more easily than compacted soil. I mention this from time to time only in response to those who think it doesn't.

That's too simplistic a statement Weary. You constantly harp on this. Compaction reduces the bulk density of a soil, which reduces water infiltration, even to the point of no infiltration, e.g. a hardpan. Reduced infiltration increases sheet and rill flow. Sheet and rill flow cause erosion also. If you take a compacted soil and poke a bunch of holes in it, sheet and rill flow will be reduced as infiltration will increase. These are facts Weary, taught by soil scientists. The conditions whereby a loose soil erodes faster than a compacted one are not set in stone. For example, a loose soil may be able to absorb 1.5" of rainfall and a compacted soil may be able to absorb 0.5" of rainfall. If it only rains 0.5", the loose soil may erode more. However, say it now rains 1.5". Then there will be an inch of sheet and rill flow over the compacted soil. This water has the energy to strip the top of the compacted soil, in much the same manner that a stream moves sediment. This could exceed the erosion that happens to the loose soil. It's the heavier rain events that cause the most problems, not a light rainfall. As it stands though, the rates have not been determined by previous study.



I mention these things from time to time because I like to keep these debates honest, at least.


Nor do I worry a great deal about it. I reserve my worries for things I have some hope of changing.


I have no illusions about changing hiker practices.

You have honestly told us that you do not worry a great deal about this issue and that you have no illusions about changing hiker practices. I guess it's high time you stopped worrying about it then.

Jaybird
03-08-2006, 11:13
WOW! such a looooooong winded post ...just to stir up the conversation concerning scratches on rocks!

Alligator
03-08-2006, 11:18
WOW! such a looooooong winded post ...just to stir up the conversation concerning scratches on rocks!
WOW! As usual, you still haven't said anything important, that's why I keep you on my ignore list!

AbeHikes
03-08-2006, 12:11
I've never realized this was such a touchy subject. As a Maintainer myself I've never noticed a problem with hiking poles. (I use a pair of Leki's myself.) I guess the reason I've never noticed was because I was too busy picking up paper and all other kinds of trash, cleaning out water bars, cutting blow downs, cutting weeds etc. My point is it seems a real small thing compared to all the other things we have to deal with. Sure I've seen the holes left by hiking poles but have never noticed where it's caused a problem. I think our time would be better spent educating hikers about not throwing trash on the trail, not cutting switch backs, not cutting trees (stuff like that) and try to stop the ATV's and Bikes from getting on the trail. Every Spring it's unbelievable at the litter that we find on the Approach trail as well the AT and the shelters from "too heavy packs". I could go on and on, but little holes in the ground is the least of my worries.

Just my 2 cents worth

Amen. I was furious by the time I finished the Approach Trail weekend before last. Candy wrappers, Gatorade bottles, snack bags, a Weber grill on top of Frosty Mountain... Right now I see that as one of the things that "matter". With blatant littering and vandalism so obvious, I just can't work up the concern for what strikes me as wear and tear by trail pedestrians. I would feel justified in confronting someone dropping wrappers on the trail. At least there are laws in place making that illegal.

Alligator
03-08-2006, 12:28
Actually, I'm not too interested in trekking poles today either. I am seeking an opinion about the composition of Ridge's trail club though. In the future, I have hopes to work on more AT projects, as circumstances permit.

The last club meeting I went to I was disappointed because the club knowingly violated an ADA suggestion regarding a reasonable accomodation. I know that in general this club does good work, but this soured my view.

I figure if a guy like Ridge has been at it for nearly twenty years, he must have developed some good trail relationships.

weary
03-08-2006, 12:40
That's too simplistic a statement Weary. You constantly harp on this. Compaction reduces the bulk density of a soil, which reduces water infiltration, even to the point of no infiltration, e.g. a hardpan. Reduced infiltration increases sheet and rill flow. Sheet and rill flow cause erosion also. If you take a compacted soil and poke a bunch of holes in it, sheet and rill flow will be reduced as infiltration will increase. These are facts Weary, taught by soil scientists. The conditions whereby a loose soil erodes faster than a compacted one are not set in stone. For example, a loose soil may be able to absorb 1.5" of rainfall and a compacted soil may be able to absorb 0.5" of rainfall. If it only rains 0.5", the loose soil may erode more. However, say it now rains 1.5". Then there will be an inch of sheet and rill flow over the compacted soil. This water has the energy to strip the top of the compacted soil, in much the same manner that a stream moves sediment. This could exceed the erosion that happens to the loose soil. It's the heavier rain events that cause the most problems, not a light rainfall. As it stands though, the rates have not been determined by previous study.
.....
I certainly don't know of any scientific studies. But I have observed erosion ever since digging potatoes one fall a half century ago on a northern Maine farm, where a farmer pointed to a huge boulder in the middle of the field and expressed amazement that "frost" had lifted it up more than a foot in the past few years.

A little reading quickly convinced me it was not frost lifting the boulder, but rain washing away the farm's well-tilled topsoil.

I note with interest also that the trail that I walk on daily somehow is most eroded where ATV tires have loosened the soil. Since the soil is washing into a spring-fed pond with no inlet and no outlet, our town land trust is committed to spending $10,000 this year to create a hardened trail to lessen the polluting nutrients that each year increase the growth of algae in the pond.

Weary

Alligator
03-08-2006, 15:33
Actually, I'm not too interested in trekking poles today either. I am seeking an opinion about the composition of Ridge's trail club though. In the future, I have hopes to work on more AT projects, as circumstances permit.

The last club meeting I went to I was disappointed because the club knowingly violated an ADA suggestion regarding a reasonable accomodation. I know that in general this club does good work, but this soured my view.

I figure if a guy like Ridge has been at it for nearly twenty years, he must have developed some good trail relationships.
Last question for now Ridge, since you're taking the fifth,...http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=181309#post181309

Lilred
03-08-2006, 18:23
Yea, thats what everyone says. ie: "Whats a few holes going to hurt", "I'm not coming back this way, so whats a few scratches or chips on the rocks going to hurt" "My tax dollars paid for this trail, I deserve to use my $200 carbide tipped poles" Blah, blah, blah blah... I wish people would shut up making excuses and just continue to tear the trail up instead of doing the right thing.

How nice of you to put allll those words in my mouth. Do the right thing? Not use poles? And then my knees will be shot and I can forget about hiking. So, the only people, according to you, who 'do the right thing' will be those that are healthy enough to hike without poles for support? You really need to get a grip.
We've got how many posts on here saying, 'maintainers have told me.........' yet, the only maintainer to post on here as of yet sees no problem with the pole usage. Sounds like one of those, My cousin's boyfriend's sister said........

Ya'll can bemoan the use of poles all you want, I'm with Mountain Man.