View Full Version : Down Sleeping Bag?
I am shopping for a 20 deg. sleeping bag, possibly to be used on a thru-hike next year. I have read all about the trade-offs of down vs. synthetic and I am currently leaning toward down. Here's my question: Has anyone here used a good-quality down bag on a thru-hike and regretted the choice?
- Wes
hopefulhiker
03-07-2006, 13:45
I used a 30 degree Nanutak down back country blanket last year and only regretted it for one night at a blizzard right out of Hot Springs... There were single digit wind chills. We had to zero in the shelter because no one had the gonads to break trail in the deep snow... I was uncomfortable but I survived.. I think it would have been worse in a synthetic... For the rest of the trip the bag was great...
I totally did not regret my decision to use a down bag in 2003, despite all the rain and nasty weather, it was just fine.
Footslogger
03-07-2006, 14:44
I'm right there with Singe. Used a 20 degree down bag (REI Sub Kilo) and would do it again. Switched out to a light weight synthetic bag in the hotter months but otherwise it was the 20 degree down bag all the way. Just keep it in a waterproof silnylon stuff sack and use a plastic trash compactor bag to line your backpack. You shouldn't have any problems.
'Slogger
A sleeping bag is the MOST important piece of gear you have. You are already aware of the problems related to down and moisture. just make sure you keep it dry. A sleeping bag has meant the difference between life and death to hikers stranded, or in an emergency situation.
MacGyver2005
03-07-2006, 14:54
My father used a down bag on our Thru-Hike and loved it. I regret not using a down bag.
Regards,
-MacGyver
GA-->ME
i used a down bag. it was fine except when it rained. then it got damp sometimes under my poncho-tarp and even inside a shelter a time or two. if my clothes were damp or if mist was rolling in, that bag soaked the moisture right up. that said, it was awfully light and packed down real small, so it was probably worth it. i still carry it and still regret it from time to time. i had it with me last week in the smokies and it got damp inside the icewater springs shelter from all the wet clouds rolling through. luckily, the sun came out later that afternoon and i could dry out the bag before sleepy time. if i do another thru-hike, i might bring a down bag again but i'd probably also use a very light bivy and also carry a light tarp tent with a floor rather than the poncho-tarp.
Provided you are smart with your moisture management, you will NOT regret having a quality down bag. They are warmer, lighter and more compressable than their synthetic counterparts.
Be smart about it though - keeping the down dry is paramount, especially in bad conditions. Tents with rain fly's don't require bags with as much water resistance. The better down bags have water resistant fabrics that perform well against light dew or condensation, perfect in a single wall tent. If you plan on using a tarp or other shelter where you may run a higher risk of getting the bag wet, or if you are not confident in your ability to keep your bag dry, then you may look at down a bit more skeptically and go for a synthetic instead.
Additionally during the spring when you can have extended periods of rain with the additional complication of cold temperatures, you have to be able to control the amount of moisture your clothes will impart to your bag. Nothing worse than shivering in wet clothes inside a down bag that's basically worthless because you got it wet the previous evening. I know.
Bottom line: Get a good bag with quality (700+ and up) down. Get one that has a breathable fabric that is also water resistant (ie epic). And keep it dry. (I suggest carrying a lightweight absorbant camp towel to dry the interior of tents, wet feet, and puddles).
I line my bags stuff sac with an oven roasting bag. Tough, durable and light as a feather. I love my down bag.
Sparkplug
03-08-2006, 21:59
My husband, Snowman, started out with an EMS synthetic bag on Springer last March, and nearly froze. By NOC, he was determined to get another bag, and ended up with the Western Mountaineering Ultra Light 20 degree bag. He loved it and couldn't stop raving about it. He says "Go. Buy now." I guess that's a plug for down :-)
-Sparkplug
Blissful
03-08-2006, 22:29
I answered this on another thread, but one only needs to see hypothermia in action and be in wet conditions with cold winds to realize that in the Appalachians esp, your life could depend on a bag that keeps you warm. We went through this scenerio in the Whites this past summer with wet down bags and if it wasn't summer, it might have been a difficult situation. I'm finding out the hard way through my hiking tests that sometimes going ultra light with every piece of gear isn't always the best way.
But if I was camping out west, a down bag would be superb.
I used a down bag on my thru-hike, and on many wilderness trips before and since. Down is still the warmest sleeping bag insulation there is for the weight. I got rained on a whole lot on the AT, and it was never a factor. It's not hard to keep a down bag dry on the AT if you're careful. I had it in a pack that was nearly waterproof, in a turkey roasting bag inside a stuff sack. It could rain all it wanted and it wouldn't get wet. I wouldn't pull it out until it was under cover where it would stay dry. Set up your tarp/tent/hammock out of the wind. If the rain is blowing in the wooden shelter, don't stay there.
A down bag has to get WET to lose it's insulation. Dampness, or some wetness on the outside of the bag is no big deal.
To me, it's like tarps. The more experienced you are, the more sense tarps make vs. a tent on the AT. The same for down bags. I didn't know how to keep a bag dry at one time, and then down probably wasn't the best choice.
Has anyone ever heard of someone losing their life on the AT because they were using a down bag instead of a synthetic bag? Serious question.
If canoeing in the wilderness, I'll usually use sythetic. Hiking on the AT, I'd choose down every time.
Blissful
03-09-2006, 15:31
Has anyone ever heard of someone losing their life on the AT because they were using a down bag instead of a synthetic bag? Serious question.
Likely not, though I have read about hypothermic cases and people needing to be rescued off the AT b/c they were not prepared for that freak May ice storm. And after seeing my son suffer hypothermia in the Whites in the middle of summer, I don't care to take chances, esp if I know a synthetic bag will keep him warm in adverse condtions that one doesn't plan for. I think ultralight is going a bit out of whack, anyway. I was so into it, until I realized that safety and comfort should be the rule to make the trail a great experience and not seeing how light one can go. There are things in my pack I would definitely cut down on when it comes to weight (like having my great titanium cookset. Or having sil nylon stuff sacks. or Henry's great tarp tent). And there are other things that I won't. Like carrying a few more ounces in a synthetic bag which are getting lighter each day.
But being a mother makes me a bit partial, I guess. So does a tough encounter in the Whites. I know there are many who do fine with a down bag. That's fine. But I also want to tell the opposite side of the coin, then you can make an informed decision.
Has anyone thought of making a light weight cover out of sil nylon and covering your down bag if you are in danger of it getting wet? Or does anyone know if they make ultra light weight bivys used only for water proofing down or a rain proof cover?
Has anyone thought of making a light weight cover out of sil nylon and covering your down bag if you are in danger of it getting wet? Or does anyone know if they make ultra light weight bivys used only for water proofing down or a rain proof cover?
a good down bag is already water resistant... i've pooled water on mine for 3 hours (not over a seam. just on the fabric itself) without it going through... i'm not worried about condensation...
as far as a rain proof cover goes, i use a "tarp", which works well. the slight condensation i get once in a great while is handled via the water resistant bag itself (see previous paragraph).
water coming from underneath is repelled by my "hammock".
JRB makes an over-cover (same stuff DropStoppers raingear is made of, i think. similar in any case) that you can use if you're expecting a really heavy fog or rain splashing up under your tarp... proper pitching can alleviate most of that though...
jaywalke
03-15-2006, 14:54
I used nothing but down bags when I lived in, and backpacked around, Seattle (where Feathered Friends is headquartered). It rains a little there.
Any wet bag is miserable (and I agree with the earlier poster - WET is a problem, damp is not).
So: Don't submerge your bag in any bodies of water or leave it unprotected in the rain, and you won't have any difficulties. If you use it with a tarp, just practice. Set up your tarp in your backyard (car campground, whatever) in the nastiest weather you get in your area, and sleep under it. The learning curve on-trail leaves less room for error.
How can a wet synthetic bag be any warmer than a wet down bag? Let's say I fall overboard into waters in the Gulf of Maine. Am I going to be warmer in a down jacket, a synthetic jacket, a wool sweater or a cotton sweat shirt? When in the water, I say it will not make much difference. But, when I'm out how can I best get warm? Which garmet will dry faster in front of a fire. I'll bet on the cotton sweat shirt! With this reasoning,sleeping bags should be cottn, but not, cotton absorbs water too fast. Okay, synthetics dry faster, but how much faster? Is it reallym life and death fast? I say no. I'm staying with down. If my down bag got wet, then my synthetic bag would be just as wet and neither wet bag is going to save me from hypothermia.
How can a wet synthetic bag be any warmer than a wet down bag? Let's say I fall overboard into waters in the Gulf of Maine. Am I going to be warmer in a down jacket, a synthetic jacket, a wool sweater or a cotton sweat shirt? When in the water, I say it will not make much difference. But, when I'm out how can I best get warm? Which garmet will dry faster in front of a fire. I'll bet on the cotton sweat shirt! With this reasoning,sleeping bags should be cottn, but not, cotton absorbs water too fast. Okay, synthetics dry faster, but how much faster? Is it reallym life and death fast? I say no. I'm staying with down. If my down bag got wet, then my synthetic bag would be just as wet and neither wet bag is going to save me from hypothermia.
You obviously know nothing about clothing or sleeping bag properties. Good luck!
You obviously know nothing about clothing or sleeping bag properties....
Ridge, is that really you, or did your wife crack your password again?
It is I, Ridge, son of a gun, from the castle White Blaze.
Skidsteer
03-16-2006, 20:40
You obviously know nothing about clothing or sleeping bag properties. Good luck!
So educate him. That is, I assume, the reason for his question in the first sentence of his post.
Just Jeff
03-16-2006, 21:54
Loft is what keeps you warm. Down loses its loft when wet, synthetic not so much. Ergo, synthetic is (marginally) a better insulator when wet.
Regarding the cotton thing, cotton threads absorb water. Most synthetics used in hiking gear are hydrophobic, so the actual threads don't absorb water...it just gets trapped between the threads. Makes a big difference in how much it absorbs and how quickly it'll dry.
If you're underwater, you'll be warmest in whichever stops the current from taking away your heat...probably not much difference in any of the ones you mentioned. Next time you go camping underwater, be sure to test and let us know what you find.
Otherwise, go with down and keep it dry. JMHO.
Skidsteer
03-16-2006, 21:59
Loft is what keeps you warm. Down loses its loft when wet, synthetic not so much. Ergo, synthetic is (marginally) a better insulator when wet.
Regarding the cotton thing, cotton threads absorb water. Most synthetics used in hiking gear are hydrophobic, so the actual threads don't absorb water...it just gets trapped between the threads. Makes a big difference in how much it absorbs and how quickly it'll dry.
If you're underwater, you'll be warmest in whichever stops the current from taking away your heat...probably not much difference in any of the ones you mentioned. Next time you go camping underwater, be sure to test and let us know what you find.
Otherwise, go with down and keep it dry. JMHO.
Education. It's a beautiful thing.
wool is the same way... you can spin a wool sweater, synthetic shirt, or synthetic sleeping bag around your head and get rid of enough water to restore a good deal of the loft (that's why your washer's spin cycle causes it to go bump when you have heavy wet jeans and towels mixed in with say a fleece top, blanket, or wool sweater... they spin almost dry, but the jeans and towels retain a lot more water, resulting in an unbalanced load). with down, if it's that wet, you can't just 'spin' it almost dry...
aaronthebugbuffet
03-17-2006, 02:39
I believe the original post was asking for advice on a good down 20 degree sleeping bag. It seems he has made the choice to use down, so why dont you down bag users give this guy some advice and lets debate the down vs synthetic issue and properties of fabrics on another thread.
I ve used the Western Mountaineering Ultralite and it rocks. Its a little pricey, but you should be able to use it for a long time. Another bag I used was the LaFuma Warm and Light 800. Its not rated as low, but has worked for me in 15 degree nights while wearing a hat and some clothing. Not the quality of the Western Mtning, but really cheap for a down bag. Put about 1200 miles on mine and its still in fine shape.
Be sure to pay close attention to the size of the sleeping bag. The bags I mentioned might be too snug for some.
aaronthebugbuffet
03-17-2006, 02:43
Forgot to add I have never regretted using a down bag. I ve never had a problem keeping one dry and I ve hike in tons of rain and I sleep in a tarp.
Thanks for all of your responses to my post. Based on the advice I've gotten and the research I've done, I ordered a Moonstone 800 Lucid bag and am anxiously waiting for it to show up so I can try it out.
- Wesley
What is too heavy for a down sleeping bag? What weight range should I be looking for?
there are a couple factors at work here... cost, weight, and quality are all inter-mixed... you first need to decide what temperature range you'll need the bag for. once you decide that, you can start narrowing the search.
down itself comes in several levels of quality/loft. the lightest, puffiest, stuff is called 850 fill down. some companies claim 900, but since there's no real way to measure that, just assume it's 850... this means that the down is so puffy that one little ounce of it will fill a space of 850 cubic inches. that's roughly a 9.5 inch cube. the next lower rating, 750, will only fill 750 cubic inches, or about a 9.1 inch cube. the lowest rating, 650, will thus fill only a cube about 8.7 inches on a side...
so, what happens is, you get a bag rated, say, 35*F. it has a certain volume of space that needs to be filled in order to keep you warm at that temperature... so, to fill that space, you need X amount of 850 fill down, Y amount of 750, or Z amount of 650. the bag will be warm in any case... but it will be about 25% heavier if filled with 650 down vs 850 down... make sense so far?
one kicker is manufacturers... there is no uniform standard for temperature rating the bags... there is only reputation. Western Mountaineering is known to be conservative (meaning, they are humble). Marmot is another good company. Other manufacturers are, shall we say, 'optimistic' about what their bags are good for...
ok, back to fill, and how it effects cost and weight. the puffier down is harder to get than the less puffy stuff, so it's more expensive. you can pay $350 for a bag with 850 down, or $150 or so for a bag made with 650 down.... the 850 bag will be lighter, for the reasons i discussed above. so, you can spend 'some' money and get a down bag, or spend more money and get a lighter, but just as warm, down bag. still making sense? hope so...
you know what you can afford to spend, but a sleeping bag is probably one of the most expensive pieces of equipment you'll ever buy. if you get a good one and treat it right, it will last you a long time... but it will cost you. if you get a cheapie, it may do the job for awhile, but probably not last as long as you'd want...
personally, i own a WM Caribou (35*, 20oz). i do most of my camping in the deep south, or smokies/adirondacks in midsummer. no need for a hot bag. but if i could afford another bag, it would be the WM Alpinlite (20*, just under 2 lbs), for use in the smokies in early spring/fall. i think the relatively high cost is worth it for the light weight and high quality. i fully expect to use the bag for another 12-15 years.
hope this helps...
wool dries a lot faster than cotton without a fire!!! good luck to you sir
and to everyone scared of down bags just pack a space blanket and you'll be fine!!!
We ended up getting a Northface 15* bag for our thruhike next year, we spent 150 on them a peice cause they were on sale, and they weigh 2 lb 15oz. I was a little dissapointed with the weight but extatic about the cost... Im just wondering, as a thruhiker, if I will regret the extra weight vs. the extra cash.
Nearly Normal
03-25-2006, 10:27
Hiking GA/NC will give you a "new" sensation. A $400 sub 2lb bag will seem cheap.
pete
Forestescapes
04-09-2006, 02:24
I have seen hikers come into a hut in the middle of the night after getting wet in a hammock outside(sorry guys) in a High quality Down Bag in Winter conditions to squeeze in with mates using synthetic bags...
I have down bags but choose synthetic.If you were spending every night in Huts, I'd recommend Down. But in the wild the risks are too real for me.
If you do give in and buy a down bag - just make totally sure that you keep it dry at all times!
And please don't even consider those rediculously dangerous Down bags with only fill on the top! 'Lightwieght' does not give manufacturers the right to endanger lives.
dc
In all my camping (500+ miles hiking, plus about 200 nights car camping), I was proud to say "I have never gotten my sleeping bag wet" Then in 04, it got soaked (well, the foot anyway) due to a leak in the plastic liner bag in the stuff sack and a 36 hour HARD rain, up till that day I had thought to get a down bag when the time came. Now, I'm a die hard synthetic man. That BTW, was the day I got a real bad case of hypothermia, I stayed warm even tho 1/4 of my bag was soaked, don't think I would have been near as warm in a down bag.
Doctari.
...... I stayed warm even tho 1/4 of my bag was soaked, don't think I would have been near as warm in a down bag.Doctari.
My cousin was heading to REI a while back to get some gear. He calls me up on a Sat morn and asks me for suggestions on gear. A sleeping bag was one of the items on his list. He already had decided on a down bag. I told him to come over and help me with an experiment. He is just out of HS and was planning on doing long sections of the AT, so I was really wanting to help. Since both my bags, one down and the other synthetic, needed washing I was going to try the which one is warmer when wet experiment.
I got him to bring his swimming trunks, we placed both bags on an elevated deck, soaked both with garden hose. It was around 45 degs out I told him to get into the down bag first, when he said it was too cold to stay in, I got him to jump into the synthetic one, he claims he could stay in it for a long time. It actually warmed him up to what seemed to be a fairly comfortable temp. He got a synthetic bag.
bulldog49
04-10-2006, 09:31
My cousin was heading to REI a while back to get some gear. He calls me up on a Sat morn and asks me for suggestions on gear. A sleeping bag was one of the items on his list. He already had decided on a down bag. I told him to come over and help me with an experiment. He is just out of HS and was planning on doing long sections of the AT, so I was really wanting to help. Since both my bags, one down and the other synthetic, needed washing I was going to try the which one is warmer when wet experiment.
I got him to bring his swimming trunks, we placed both bags on an elevated deck, soaked both with garden hose. It was around 45 degs out I told him to get into the down bag first, when he said it was too cold to stay in, I got him to jump into the synthetic one, he claims he could stay in it for a long time. It actually warmed him up to what seemed to be a fairly comfortable temp. He got a synthetic bag.
That's good to know. Next time I decide to soak my sleeping bag before I sleep in it, I will make sure I have a synthetic one. :rolleyes:
Mountain Mike
04-14-2006, 19:53
For a long distance hike I would consider nothing but down. I'm not an ultra-light hiker but like to keep my pack weight down. If your budgit permit it look at Feathered Friends based in Seattle. They have their stock bags but will custom make: add fill, variety of fabrics on what you think you need. It can be from ultralight to goretex. Kinda like buying a car, chose the model & go from there. I bought an overstuffed Rock Wren for my PCT hike & loved it. I could unzip the pit zips & cook whithout getting out of my bag
grrickar
04-15-2006, 23:02
I have only gotten a sleeping bag wet once, and it was from sharing a tent on a hike that was questionable in the water resistance department. My thermarest was touching the wall of the tent and I woke up the next morning to find that the footbox was soaked. It was a synthetic, and I did stay warm. Had I been in a down bag I would likely have been colder.
With that said which would I rather hike with - the answer is down. First it is warmer to me when dry (and I am convinced I can keep it dry if I am using my own gear), and it is softer and more comfortable. The only thing I can see as being a drawback is the price. You would think they are sweing those things with gold thread. The synthetic bag is not only heavier, it takes up soooo much room in my pack.
I am hiking locally next weekend and I am going to take the Kelty bag - it should be plenty warm and weighs less.
I have read this before and would repeat it for anyone that is considering a down bag - save your money and get a good one. I bought Kelty bag, and while it is a good summer bag I think they overstated the temp rating. It is rated at 45 degrees, but I think most would agree that it would prevent you from freezing at that temp, but I doubt you would be comfortable.
I am looking to get a Marmot or a WM bag now.