View Full Version : Providing Information from Guthooks to those Who Havent Paid
Gambit McCrae
10-03-2019, 13:17
I and others frequently provide information from guthooks to people online who obviously do not have guthooks otherwise they wouldn't be creating threads asking for water reports. Is this ethical to do? Every time I do I think "why don't you buy the app that contains the information your asking for?". But then I feel bad for them and know I would like the information if i didnt have it, and I post info I find on the hook. Thoughts? I think I will probably from now on just suggest for them to get the app.
colorado_rob
10-03-2019, 13:26
I find the practice of sharing limited, piece-meal amounts of information from various paid-for sources acceptable, either by word of mouth or by posting on social media.
Directly distributing software, music, etc, that you have paid for is not OK though. For example, for our recent AT LASH my wife went ahead and just bought the complete trail Guthook map set. I probably could have managed to load those on my phone as well, but this would not be either legal or ethical. Same with photocopying book pages and giving those out.
Just my own ethic, everyone's is a little, sometimes a lot, different.
Teacher & Snacktime
10-03-2019, 13:28
If you bought a map would you not share directions?
Tipi Walter
10-03-2019, 13:33
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colorado_rob
10-03-2019, 13:35
If you bought a map would you not share directions? If I understand correctly, Gambit is referring to posting paid-for info on social media. In the case of a physical map, for example, if you bought a map, would it be OK to scan the map then post it online? I would say no.
Sarcasm the elf
10-03-2019, 13:42
I and others frequently provide information from guthooks to people online who obviously do not have guthooks otherwise they wouldn't be creating threads asking for water reports. Is this ethical to do? Every time I do I think "why don't you buy the app that contains the information your asking for?". But then I feel bad for them and know I would like the information if i didnt have it, and I post info I find on the hook. Thoughts? I think I will probably from now on just suggest for them to get the app.
My gut reaction (and nothing more) is that if the person is asking detailed guide data that guthooks/atlas guides has collected or compiled as part of the official app the yeah, it’s unethical to freely share that. However if you’re referring to simply sharing crowdsourced comments from within the app, such as “as of Oct 1st people are reporting that water source X is dry” then to me that’s akin to sharing a comment that was posed in a Facebook hiking group or here on WB and I don’t see an ethical issue.
Teacher & Snacktime
10-03-2019, 13:47
My gut reaction (and nothing more) is that if the person is asking detailed guide data that guthooks/atlas guides has collected or compiled as part of the official app the yeah, it’s unethical to freely share that. However if you’re referring to simply sharing crowdsourced comments from within the app, such as “as of Oct 1st people are reporting that water source X is dry” then to me that’s akin to sharing a comment that was posed in a Facebook hiking group or here on WB and I don’t see an ethical issue.
This is essentially what I mean
On my section hikes I've occasionally had Guthooks users tell me about water sources or available campsites which aren't listed on the Awol guide I use. For a limited purpose like that I agree there is not an ethical issue.
TwistedCF
10-03-2019, 15:19
If you're talking about sharing comments by other users, that's just word of mouth. If someone on the street asks me for the time and I look at my watch and then share that information, is it unethical because they didn't pay anything to the manufacturer of the watch? The information contained in apps like Guthooks isn't proprietary, it's well known and heavily documented in countless other sources, almost all of which pre date Guthooks in particular and the internet in general. Add into that database the user comments which amount to hearsay. What the user is paying for is the convenience of having that information at arms reach. If someone asks you for that information and you don't want to share it you can tell them to "buy the app", but I don't think sharing the information is unethical. If you are currently on trail and someone asks you where they can find water, and you know where the water is, it could be argued that not telling them is unethical. If you're talking about random posts you encounter while browsing the web it seems like the easiest solution would be not to respond at all if you feel it's unethical.
Paleolith54
10-03-2019, 15:22
If you're talking about sharing comments by other users, that's just word of mouth. If someone on the street asks me for the time and I look at my watch and then share that information, is it unethical because they didn't pay anything to the manufacturer of the watch? The information contained in apps like Guthooks isn't proprietary, it's well known and heavily documented in countless other sources, almost all of which pre date Guthooks in particular and the internet in general. Add into that database the user comments which amount to hearsay. What the user is paying for is the convenience of having that information at arms reach. If someone asks you for that information and you don't want to share it you can tell them to "buy the app", but I don't think sharing the information is unethical. If you are currently on trail and someone asks you where they can find water, and you know where the water is, it could be argued that not telling them is unethical. If you're talking about random posts you encounter while browsing the web it seems like the easiest solution would be not to respond at all if you feel it's unethical.
Absolutely nailed it.
4eyedbuzzard
10-03-2019, 15:34
Here's the terms of use: https://atlasguides.com/terms-of-use/
Guthook is basically just a compiler of information available in the public domain, along with publicly shared uploaded content (like current water sources) from other users - content that nobody really owns. The info itself is free to use and distribute, no different than letting another hiker look at your AWOL Guide or map. The app and tech, however, is a license agreement, and distributing the app itself, or using the app for commercial purpose would violate the license agreement.
ldsailor
10-03-2019, 16:20
I always found the Guthook comments of little use most times. Comments about water can be dated and I question whether the person commenting really has good information. Just on this forum a few days ago I read a post saying there was no water at a certain location. Then someone replied to that saying he went further down the water source and acquired water.
I have hiked at this time of the year in the past and always carried more water than usual just because I know a lot of sources dry up. While getting information from any source is probably a good idea, I don't rely on it.
Specifically to the question, if you met someone on the trail and they told you where to get water is that unethical? Of course not. The Guthook app is essentially doing the same thing and why not share the information if you can.
LazyLightning
10-03-2019, 20:36
I find the practice of sharing limited, piece-meal amounts of information from various paid-for sources acceptable, either by word of mouth or by posting on social media.
Directly distributing software, music, etc, that you have paid for is not OK though. For example, for our recent AT LASH my wife went ahead and just bought the complete trail Guthook map set. I probably could have managed to load those on my phone as well, but this would not be either legal or ethical. Same with photocopying book pages and giving those out.
Just my own ethic, everyone's is a little, sometimes a lot, different.
what if the book is out of print and not available anymore except a few random people asking for way over face value? …. would you consider it ok to photocopy pages/maps to help people out or would you say that's wrong to? … not trying to be a wise guy just wondering your thoughts.
4eyedbuzzard
10-03-2019, 20:53
what if the book is out of print and not available anymore except a few random people asking for way over face value? …. would you consider it ok to photocopy pages/maps to help people out or would you say that's wrong to? … not trying to be a wise guy just wondering your thoughts.A couple of thoughts...
When was the book first published? Is the author alive? If not, when did they die? Important to determine how copyright duration applies.
How much of the work are you copying and for what purpose? A page or two for commentary or educational purposes is usually okay. Important to know as it pertains to "fair use".
And just an observation, but present value of many old books would be much higher than "face value" due to inflation alone, never mind rarity.
chknfngrs
10-03-2019, 21:17
and also ================================== and a little *********************
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colorado_rob
10-03-2019, 22:01
what if the book is out of print and not available anymore except a few random people asking for way over face value? …. would you consider it ok to photocopy pages/maps to help people out or would you say that's wrong to? … not trying to be a wise guy just wondering your thoughts.tough call, but I'm not too strict on my own ethics, nor do I give anyone grief on theirs. I do have a guide book published, for example, and couldn't care less if folks copy pages. A good friend, however, nicest guy around does NOT like folks copying his guide books though (he has written a couple dozen of them).
colorado_rob
10-03-2019, 22:05
and also ================================== and a little *********************
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Two Tents
10-04-2019, 06:48
If you need something ya ask. I have needed info I did not have or have access to. I've wanted first hand knowledge of trail conditions or if the unreliable water source was good or not. I lost my knife, forgot to pack my ibuprofen or ran out or items. No big deal when I get asked for info I have. If somebody needs a bandaid I give them one or two. If I have it I share it including information. It's not unethical it's being non judgemental and kind.
Traveler
10-04-2019, 10:12
I and others frequently provide information from guthooks to people online who obviously do not have guthooks otherwise they wouldn't be creating threads asking for water reports. Is this ethical to do? Every time I do I think "why don't you buy the app that contains the information your asking for?". But then I feel bad for them and know I would like the information if i didnt have it, and I post info I find on the hook. Thoughts? I think I will probably from now on just suggest for them to get the app.
I'm not sure what it would serve telling someone in the desert to "go get the app" as opposed to telling them where the nearest water site is. I wonder how one would feel learning weeks later that person died as a result of that clipped conversation. I could see this response if the same person constantly pestered another about information only available through a specific application, but to withhold it from someone in need is not in anyone's best interest.
Sharing social media information or recorded data/observations (usually provided by others) like traffic conditions, weather forecasts, or water sites is not unethical, if it were, tens of thousands of people would be sued hourly. However, providing a copy of the software that collects data/observations would be unethical and illegal according to US Copyright law.
Hikingjim
10-04-2019, 11:04
As a company, they should be happy that people share a lot of the info. It's great free advertising.
I think that's why I bought the app in the first place. I was on a section hike and someone had it and gave me some info I didn't have and showed me a couple features!
As long as people don't make the majority of the content easily available for free, and the app still has clear benefits to use, then all is well IMO.
Water reports have always been a key topic of conversation for hikers. It used to generate a response such as "I didn't stop at shelter A so I don't know, but the creek around 4-5 miles back has a trickle". But if someone asks me that now, I will consult all resources I have!
As a company, they should be happy that people share a lot of the info. It's great free advertising.
which leads me to wonder-----is Guthook doing this to make a profit or just doing it to pass information on to hikers?
and has anyone asked Guthook what his/her thoughts are on this?
HooKooDooKu
10-04-2019, 14:45
When it comes to hard facts, such as the fixed locations of water sources, Guthook is like a map.
If you owned a map and another hiker asked you where the local water sources were, would you consider it unethical to share that information just because they didn't buy the map?
{Fair Use likely comes into play here as there is a difference between sharing data on local resources verse downloading a full list of resources from the Guthook app, printing them out and handing them out.}
Here's the terms of use: https://atlasguides.com/terms-of-use/
When it comes to the trail reports, Guthook's TOU makes no claim of owner ship on the data uploaded by others to the point they disavowal ANY responsibility for the content of these reports.
Since Guthook doesn't claim ownership, I can't see how anyone would consider it wrong to share this data.
My opinion: For me, if I had it - I'd share the info. No question. Yes of course it is ethical to share up-to-date info on water sources, among other things. I'm shocked that's even a question...
When I've very recently hiked through an area and seen people asking questions about it (either on-line, or in-person), I was happy and quick to share with them the up-to-date info I had as a result of having just hiked through the area in question...
One of the things that I really appreciate about the LD hiking / thru hiking community, is hikers being kind, helpful, and respectful to one another and, among other things, sharing on-trail info: like water sources... I
obviously, ymmv...
Be careful with Lady Carma Gambit, she has her ways of coming back around...
u.w.
4eyedbuzzard
10-04-2019, 18:24
which leads me to wonder-----is Guthook doing this to make a profit or just doing it to pass information on to hikers?
and has anyone asked Guthook what his/her thoughts are on this?Atlas Guides https://atlasguides.com/about-us/ is a for-profit company. Outsideonline says 337,000 app downloads over the last 3 years. https://www.outsideonline.com/2396304/guthook-guides-app-mapping-thru-hiking The app itself is free - but the trail guides are $9 per section or $60 for the entire AT I believe, with PCT a bit cheaper. If only 50% of those downloading the app purchased just one guide section, that's about $1.5 million gross or so. And it seems like a growing business model. I have congratulate the founders for doing something they are interested in and enjoy and making a good living doing it.
There is criticism from some that it isn't in the spirit of traditional hiking and that it diminishes self-reliance. But looking back, I remember carrying section guides from the various trail clubs, then the original AT Data book made thru-hiking easier, which was followed with even more info in the The Thru-Hiker's Handbook, then the Companion, AWOL, etc. And just as tech has transformed gear, electronics and radio waves has now transformed hiking info. Pretty much inevitable - if you choose to participate. I'm an old die-hard. I still like paper and maps and shelter registers - but I understand...
I have photo copied pages from the AT Guide book to carry (Weight ya know) after I finish the section what if I give them to another hiker who could use them? Is this ethical? I see little difference in punching up info on Guthook for a random person.
Hikingjim
10-05-2019, 14:22
I have photo copied pages from the AT Guide book to carry (Weight ya know) after I finish the section what if I give them to another hiker who could use them? Is this ethical? I see little difference in punching up info on Guthook for a random person.
Punching up info on Guthook would be similar to allowing a hiker to look at your printouts for a couple minutes to get information, and then you keep them.
Sharing some info and distributing I think are very different.
I wouldn't find it unethical to give hikers a few printouts either though. The guidebook is very long, and handing off a few pages is more of a sample and advertising. If they're already at the trail, they weren't going to buy a paper copy of the full guide anyway.
One Half
10-05-2019, 14:50
I don't see the problem. People are posting online looking for info on current water conditions. Just because YOU have access to a paid app to get that info and provide it to them isn't a problem.
If they get online and say, "hey, anyone with the app (which I am too cheap to pay for) want to give me some info..." I would have a problem with that.
I have another hobby which often causes me to pay for subscription services. When people get on groups and say, "I don't have a subscription, can someone get me this info?" They know EXACTLY what they are doing and it's wrong. Also, the terms of service of those subscription sites prohibits this usage. I don't believe GutHooks has the same prohibitions in it's ToS.
Believe it or not, some people do not have a smart phone.
peakbagger
10-06-2019, 08:07
Providing Information from WHITEBLAZE to those Who Havent CONTRIBUTED?:)
D.D.Bear
10-06-2019, 09:36
As a company, they should be happy that people share a lot of the info. It's great free advertising.
I think that's why I bought the app in the first place. I was on a section hike and someone had it and gave me some info I didn't have and showed me a couple features!
Witnessed this exact scenario last Friday evening after completing a section. Convo at hostel was centered on water supply, good info and Guthook’s app. Someone about to start their section hike the next day purchased the app on the spot.
nsherry61
10-06-2019, 10:38
Believe it or not, some people do not have a smart phone.
Like whom? This guy?
https://st4.depositphotos.com/1008919/22625/i/450/depositphotos_226258098-stock-photo-caveman-manly-boy-hunting-outdoors.jpg
Holy crap that's to funny, thanks I needed a good laugh.
Tipi Walter
10-06-2019, 11:31
Believe it or not, some people do not have a smart phone.
Amen to this!! (But we've already had a discussion about smartphones on another WB thread).
In the old days we used to backpack the Appalachian Trail using either these set of books with maps---
45733
Or like me who could follow a trail and blazes without such books---a mere Road Map!!
45734
The beauty of carrying a road map is enabling us to hitchhike to Oklahoma in the middle of our AT trip---and then returning thru Kentucky etc. Negotiating the actual AT never gave us a second thought as the trail itself and its hatch marks were enough for us "old timers".
Nowadays it seems everything has to be terminally parsed and planned and studied and confabulated with no deviations and no surprises. In the old days we would start backpacking up the AT in Georgia and midway thru North Carolina we'd hitch to a regional rainbow gathering and camp for a week. Where's the guidebook for this???
And don't get me going on a long rant about Smartphones and Why I Hate Them.
Hey tipi, you and nsherry61 know each others how did he get your picture?
Tipi Walter
10-06-2019, 12:23
Hey tipi, you and nsherry61 know each others how did he get your picture?
We were raised by foxes as children.
Lone Wolf
10-06-2019, 13:45
Believe it or not, some people do not have a smart phone.
i'm one of them
TwistedCF
10-06-2019, 17:51
Plus one for no smart phone. I have a thro and go pre paid for emergencies on the road and a pay phone that takes dimes hooked to a land line in my kitchen. The pay phone was a flee market find and it was traded for a 1930s Case knife I purchased for five bucks at a garage sale :banana I do have a "smart" television, but that wasn't so much a choice as a lack of options, and I do like streaming Net Flix.
Lots of 'righteous' folk out there, using 'Whiteblaze' for free! 😆😊🤣....and yes, that includes 'not so righteous' me...though I do intend to contribute to this wonderful website in the New Year. Kind of a Christmas present to myself.
colorado_rob
10-07-2019, 09:41
Lots of 'righteous' folk out there, using 'Whiteblaze' for free! 😆😊🤣....and yes, that includes 'not so righteous' me...though I do intend to contribute to this wonderful website in the New Year. Kind of a Christmas present to myself.I personally don't see any significant self-righteousness in this thread... sure WB is "free", as it is offered for "free", but don't forget, we do look at advertisements, like with most "free" websites, making it technically NOT free.
And some of us respect copyright laws at various levels, others totally ignore them. Finally, some of us that DO respect copyright laws still do not judge those that don't, in my case because it is so common, plus as I said, I don't particularly care when someone copies pages from my book.
As far as posting Guthook info on social media, especially in limited amounts, that's OK, probably even with strict laws.
lonehiker
10-07-2019, 15:42
I personally don't see any significant self-righteousness in this thread... sure WB is "free", as it is offered for "free", but don't forget, we do look at advertisements, like with most "free" websites, making it technically NOT free.
And some of us respect copyright laws at various levels, others totally ignore them. Finally, some of us that DO respect copyright laws still do not judge those that don't, in my case because it is so common, plus as I said, I don't particularly care when someone copies pages from my book.
As far as posting Guthook info on social media, especially in limited amounts, that's OK, probably even with strict laws.
I've shared pages from a couple of guidebooks, with a handful of people, over the years. Both books are out-of-print and even if those I've shared with had purchased the books at a used book store the author would not have received any royalties... This is at least how I rationalize my actions.
Mouser999
10-07-2019, 16:22
I bought the WhiteBlaze book, and asked the author if it was ok to copy pages for my own use. If someone needs a little assist on the trail, it would be wrong to turn them down, especially if water is the main need. As Red Greeen says "We're all in this together"
randy.shopher
10-07-2019, 16:57
Here did they get the initial info? If from someone passing it on should they be sharing it????
Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk
Amen to this!! (But we've already had a discussion about smartphones on another WB thread).
In the old days we used to backpack the Appalachian Trail using either these set of books with maps---
45733
Nowadays it seems everything has to be terminally parsed and planned and studied and confabulated with no deviations and no surprises. In the old days we would start backpacking up the AT in Georgia and midway thru North Carolina we'd hitch to a regional rainbow gathering and camp for a week. Where's the guidebook for this???
And don't get me going on a long rant about Smartphones and Why I Hate Them.
I still have a complete set of guide books and maps from the 70's. The biggest problem using them back then were many sections were out-of-date because of relocations. I have annotations on many pages where I have just crossed out the published data and added "relocated" in the margin. The hiker grapevine was often the best source of trail info. Many people don't know how good they have it today. I also think that some of the adventure has been lost because of this wealth of information.
Tipi Walter
10-07-2019, 18:13
I also think that some of the adventure has been lost because of this wealth of information.
Exactly my point.
Hikingjim
10-07-2019, 18:32
I also think that some of the adventure has been lost because of this wealth of information.
No doubt. I live in Canada, and I love hiking in the states where I can legitimately tell people I won't be answering phone/text for a long stretch because it's too expensive.
I noticed this canoeing as well. It used to take longer to find portage trails and I'd have to search around. Now that I have a map with gps.... it's very easy and faster, but that leaves me staring at the phone and not at the trees, and I enjoyed my last trip going "digital map free" better, even if I had to do a bit of searching for trails.
On the AT it doesn't bother me to have it with me, because the trail is so obvious and I just don't bring it out unless it's actually needed.
and has anyone asked Guthook what his/her thoughts are on this?
Not yet that I know of! But I do peek at Whiteblaze a little, so I'm happy to chime in anyway :-)
which leads me to wonder-----is Guthook doing this to make a profit or just doing it to pass information on to hikers?
Profit or to help hikers? Both! This is a full-time job for five people, so we do need to make money in order to support ourselves and keep the app going. But we’re also hikers and love what we do. I even use the app fairly often for weekend hikes or just to play around with.
We never would have been able to build what we have without people telling each other about the app (we only started advertising in any serious way five years after we first released it), so we’re happy that people talk about it. That usually means they’re happy with what we’ve made. If the people you show the app to are interested in what they see, and go on to buy it later, that’s a better-informed purchase than it might have been otherwise. If they decide they don't need it, that’s fine, too.
I wouldn't object to someone sharing info from the app to help out another hiker. I'm glad you all are having the discussion in the first place, because it can be a bit of an ethical grey area.
Gambit McCrae
10-08-2019, 12:06
Not yet that I know of! But I do peek at Whiteblaze a little, so I'm happy to chime in anyway :-)
Profit or to help hikers? Both! This is a full-time job for five people, so we do need to make money in order to support ourselves and keep the app going. But we’re also hikers and love what we do. I even use the app fairly often for weekend hikes or just to play around with.
We never would have been able to build what we have without people telling each other about the app (we only started advertising in any serious way five years after we first released it), so we’re happy that people talk about it. That usually means they’re happy with what we’ve made. If the people you show the app to are interested in what they see, and go on to buy it later, that’s a better-informed purchase than it might have been otherwise. If they decide they don't need it, that’s fine, too.
I wouldn't object to someone sharing info from the app to help out another hiker. I'm glad you all are having the discussion in the first place, because it can be a bit of an ethical grey area.
Thanks for the reply!
As usual on this forum people like to either take things out of context, blow it out of proportion, not use common sense, or just post irrelevant gibberish comments.
As well, others post useful reply's that are on topic and make sense.
My intent was not to keep a dehydrated hiker from finding the secret water source that will save their life because they didn't purchase the app.
My thought process was this: Apps like guthooks are a pay for access product. And it is a fact that without paying you do not get access to the up to date comments for each POI. So I have always wondered about the ethical decision to share information found in comments from a product that you have to pay to view those comments. And my ethical choice as of now is: no. It is not ethical. The app facilitates those comments and people had to pay to view them. SO if people are paying for the app to view those comments, or instead asking people online for information found in those comments that would in return keep them from having to pay then that is money out of the owners pocket and unethical.
To those that have said: "The comments are not up to date or accurate". Yes they are. You may not have an accurate idea of what is considered "up to date" but thats your problem. If someone tells me that a water source was dry and I am there 2 days later during a drought...its still dry folks. Now if you want to wonder on down the mountain to a further down source and you find water? That doesn't meant the comment is inaccurate, it means you went above and beyond the user that left the simple comment. That doesn't make their comment inaccurate.
To those that say in every thread involving anything remotely close to a smart phone that you do not have one: Absolutely no one cares that you do not have a smart phone and if you hadve just kept scrolling and not posted your redundant comment zero people would have said "oh man where is Jimbob with his "I dont have a smart phone comment?! man I miss hearing him say that!!" It is also very interesting to me that the people that always brag about no smart phone, are also the users with astronomical post counts....
Ok the rant is over move along
colorado_rob
10-08-2019, 12:38
...
To those that say in every thread involving anything remotely close to a smart phone that you do not have one: Absolutely no one cares that you do not have a smart phone and if you hadve just kept scrolling and not posted your redundant comment zero people would have said "oh man where is Jimbob with his "I dont have a smart phone comment?! man I miss hearing him say that!!" It is also very interesting to me that the people that always brag about no smart phone, are also the users with astronomical post counts....
Thank you!!!!! Won't make any difference though... Anti-tech or anti-anything-modern farts will keep finding ways to "brag" about their ways. I actually find it amusing.
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I agree with Tipi. I think.
Tipi Walter
10-08-2019, 16:30
I agree with Tipi. I think.
Finally, some consensus.
I buy paper guidebooks, and have no problem letting someone else read or borrow them. Someday, I might try guthooks or something, but I'm still fond of paper maps - their batteries last forever.
Tipi Walter
10-08-2019, 17:16
I buy paper guidebooks, and have no problem letting someone else read or borrow them. Someday, I might try guthooks or something, but I'm still fond of paper maps - their batteries last forever.
I agree. Paper Maps---Dream Makers and Heart Breakers. Nothing quite like holding a 1:24,000 topo in your hand and studying each blue line and contour line and creases and folds n the landscape. In fact, a good topo can locate water for you if you study above where the blue lines stop.
Here's good example from a friend who drew out his trip route---
45735
Look for "Jenkins Meadow". See "HAOE LEAD" and there's a nice CS on the ridge at the "O" in HAOE. Go a little west and down the ridge a hundred feet to the north and you'll find a spring water source---second black mark on the right. Voila, water. The lower blue line on the map helps to find these obscure sources.
4eyedbuzzard
10-08-2019, 18:07
Thank you!!!!! Won't make any difference though... Anti-tech or anti-anything-modern farts will keep finding ways to "brag" about their ways. I actually find it amusing.Yes, it is amusing in the sense that I don't believe it's completely an anti-tech or anti-anything-modern behavior. The same people who rail against cellphones, apps, and such usually have titanium stakes and pots, carbon fiber Lekis, aluminum and nylon and cuben/dyneema gear, etc. It's not a total anti-modern thing. It more seems to be their desire that hikers (and often others not just themselves) should break communication from the outside world and rely only on first person, physical presence interaction, and static info like guides and maps while on the trail. And it's not that these folks are completely anti-social, many are very social in different settings - like in person, or even in different tech type social media formats - like here on WB - as proven by their post counts. But they do seem to want to leave electronic interaction behind when hiking [their own hike]. Some extend that personal choice to want everyone else to do as they do as well [hike my hike, damn it]. :-?
Traffic Jam
10-08-2019, 20:00
Thanks for the reply!
As usual on this forum people like to either take things out of context, blow it out of proportion, not use common sense, or just post irrelevant gibberish comments.
As well, others post useful reply's that are on topic and make sense.
My intent was not to keep a dehydrated hiker from finding the secret water source that will save their life because they didn't purchase the app.
My thought process was this: Apps like guthooks are a pay for access product. And it is a fact that without paying you do not get access to the up to date comments for each POI. So I have always wondered about the ethical decision to share information found in comments from a product that you have to pay to view those comments. And my ethical choice as of now is: no. It is not ethical. The app facilitates those comments and people had to pay to view them. SO if people are paying for the app to view those comments, or instead asking people online for information found in those comments that would in return keep them from having to pay then that is money out of the owners pocket and unethical.
To those that have said: "The comments are not up to date or accurate". Yes they are. You may not have an accurate idea of what is considered "up to date" but thats your problem. If someone tells me that a water source was dry and I am there 2 days later during a drought...its still dry folks. Now if you want to wonder on down the mountain to a further down source and you find water? That doesn't meant the comment is inaccurate, it means you went above and beyond the user that left the simple comment. That doesn't make their comment inaccurate.
To those that say in every thread involving anything remotely close to a smart phone that you do not have one: Absolutely no one cares that you do not have a smart phone and if you hadve just kept scrolling and not posted your redundant comment zero people would have said "oh man where is Jimbob with his "I dont have a smart phone comment?! man I miss hearing him say that!!" It is also very interesting to me that the people that always brag about no smart phone, are also the users with astronomical post counts....
Ok the rant is over move along
Have to disagree with a few of your comments. You say...
“Apps like guthooks are a pay for access product. And it is a fact that without paying you do not get access to the up to date comments for each POI. So I have always wondered about the ethical decision to share information found in comments from a product that you have to pay to view those comments. And my ethical choice as of now is: no. It is not ethical. The app facilitates those comments and people had to pay to view them.”
Guthooks does not have proprietary knowledge of the trail. The information you seek is common knowledge...knowledge that every hiker has who has recently been in the same area. Guthooks takes information and puts it in a format that makes the info readily available and that is what you are paying for, the convenience and ease of finding the information you need. You can still obtain this info by asking every hiker you meet who is walking in the opposite direction, or by calling local hostels, shuttlers, trail angels, etc.
So don’t beat yourself up. The real travesty is to withhold information. If you were out hiking, would you refuse to tell someone walking in the opposite direction where to find the next water source? There’s no difference.
TwistedCF
10-09-2019, 06:32
Gambit McCrae.... My apologies for piling on the "no smart phone" bandwagon. It wasn't my intent to strike a nerve and you're right, my personal habits aren't germane to the ethical question. In truth I'm grateful that my life has taken a course that allows me to "unplug" to the extent I have but I am aware that some of my comments come across as sanctimonious and meanwhile I'm slipping into the office at least nine times a day to log into this or that social media account. Mea culpa.
The reason I responded to your original post initially is because the ethical question about how we share information with this new technology interests me. Any real discussion about ethics should examine opposing points of view but of course we each have to follow our own moral compass. I'm not interested in converting any ones thoughts and I'm not even sure where I will land on this after further examination. In the interest of continuing the conversation in a meaningful way I offer for your consideration a parallel.
Public libraries go to some expense to line their shelves with new release books. When I check out a new release book from my local library that is on the New York Times Bestseller list and bring it home neither the author, the publisher or the printer receive any payment from me. Is this ethical? If the way libraries have worked for ages is ethical, how did we as a society arrive at that conclusion and if it is unethical how did we as a society allow it to become the norm for how we share information. To simplify the analogy, If I purchase a book, read it and loan it to a friend, is that ethical?
Respectfully...Twisted
Traveler
10-09-2019, 07:13
Fair Use is a doctrine in copyright laws permitting limited use of copyrighted material without having to first acquire permission from the copyright holder. Fair Use is a limitation to copyright that is designed to balance the interests of copyright holders with public interest. For example, subscribing to a weather service application and sharing information garnered from that service like tornado warnings would not be a copyright infringement. Making a copy of the forecast and sending it to others would be.
Tempests often seem larger in the teapot.
stephanD
10-09-2019, 13:17
I spend 10 hours a day in front of a computer. When I'm hiking, last thing I want to do is looking at a screen. I guess that makes me an anti-technology old fart, but I can live with it.
Tipi Walter
10-09-2019, 14:14
I spend 10 hours a day in front of a computer. When I'm hiking, last thing I want to do is looking at a screen. I guess that makes me an anti-technology old fart, but I can live with it.
This is pretty much how I feel. Screen Time is bad enough at home---on a backpacking trip I want my screen time (i.e. my online time) to be ZERO. My digital camera offers screen time to review trip pics---fun to look thru on Day 15 of a 21 day trip---but no live streaming or FB chats for me. Staying current on the Interwad is useless for me in the backcountry. I call this smartphone drooling the Pixel Heroin. My opinion only of course---from another old fart.
Hikingjim
10-09-2019, 15:56
This is pretty much how I feel. Screen Time is bad enough at home---on a backpacking trip I want my screen time (i.e. my online time) to be ZERO. My digital camera offers screen time to review trip pics---fun to look thru on Day 15 of a 21 day trip---but no live streaming or FB chats for me. Staying current on the Interwad is useless for me in the backcountry. I call this smartphone drooling the Pixel Heroin. My opinion only of course---from another old fart.
Yes, the experience of being totally unplugged for days is one that I think people should experience at least a few times. My daughter did when she was younger (ie: when I carted her places!), but quite possibly never will again (personal choice).
However, I can carry my phone and still feel unplugged. As long as I'm airplane mode, using guthook, kindle app, camera, etc, are all positives for me. Paper map comes too for shorter sections just for fun and a backup.
colorado_rob
10-09-2019, 16:08
This is pretty much how I feel. Screen Time is bad enough at home---on a backpacking trip I want my screen time (i.e. my online time) to be ZERO. My digital camera offers screen time to review trip pics---fun to look thru on Day 15 of a 21 day trip---but no live streaming or FB chats for me. Staying current on the Interwad is useless for me in the backcountry. I call this smartphone drooling the Pixel Heroin. My opinion only of course---from another old fart.YET, when I approached you last year, right about this time on the BMT (actually, November 5th to be exact), at Beech Gap (I think, next road crossing after Mud Gap), I tried to say hello and introduced myself in person, you didn't even acknowledge me, ignored me completely, you were BURIED in a device of some sort in your hand, I believe it was a phone, don't think it was a camera. I was only a few yards away. Pretty sure it was you, looked like you, and there was a huge pack sitting nearby, red I think.
Tipi Walter
10-09-2019, 16:25
YET, when I approached you last year, right about this time on the BMT (actually, November 5th to be exact), at Beech Gap (I think, next road crossing after Mud Gap), I tried to say hello and introduced myself in person, you didn't even acknowledge me, ignored me completely, you were BURIED in a device of some sort in your hand, I believe it was a phone, don't think it was a camera. I was only a few yards away. Pretty sure it was you, looked like you, and there was a huge pack sitting nearby, red I think.
I know you'd like to think it was me---convenient as a retort to my smartphone screed--- but you're mistaken. On Nov 5th 2018 I was coming up the Jeffrey Hell trail in Citico wilderness and road walking 2 miles to Grassy Gap for my shuttle ride pickup on the last day of a trip. Here's proof---
https://www.trailjournals.com/journal/entry/605515
(https://www.trailjournals.com/journal/entry/605515)
Tipi Walter
10-09-2019, 16:37
But to Colorado Rob---I did see several groups the day before atop Bob Stratton Bald ---
45736
Bob Bald group.
45737
Cold Spring Gap group.
And anyway, on this trip if you saw my pack you'd say it's mostly yellow---
45738
colorado_rob
10-09-2019, 17:07
I know you'd like to think it was me---convenient as a retort to my smartphone screed--- but you're mistaken. On Nov 5th 2018 I was coming up the Jeffrey Hell trail in Citico wilderness and road walking 2 miles to Grassy Gap for my shuttle ride pickup on the last day of a trip. Here's proof---
https://www.trailjournals.com/journal/entry/605515
(https://www.trailjournals.com/journal/entry/605515)Forget about the cell phone thing, I am obviously mistaken on my gap names, seems like if you were sitting waiting for a shuttle along the skyway, then it WAS indeed you. I was getting a ride into town (then back out), my shuttle driver stopped to take some pics (and pee) and I was roaming around when I saw you. Sure wish I had taken a pic.... My last pic before that ride into town was at Mud Gap, where I got picked up. So, I suppose when I saw you, it was not actually along the BMT. And my "red" pack claim was fuzzy, but loos like you did actually have a red tent strapped to the side.
Anyway, too bad you didn't say hi back, would have been nice to meet, but of course, after 21 days on the trail I don't feel particularly chatty either. I was only 10 days or so along my hike, plus I had stopped in at least one "town" recently, only a little restaurant/hostel really, can't remember its name.
I drift, sorry..... but after seeing your trail journal, seeing where you were exactly when I was there, I'm now 100% sure it was you.
I also think that some of the adventure has been lost because of this wealth of information.
I agree but you have to consider where the area is located. If you're in your own backyard, been there a 100 times and so close to a road you complain about the motorcycle noise, then you don’t need anything.
Going cross country in wilderness, miles and miles from roads or towns, then Guthook, smart phones, gps tools are a nice addition, not mandatory but helpful.
Tipi Walter
10-09-2019, 17:40
Going cross country in wilderness, miles and miles from roads or towns, then Guthook, smart phones, gps tools are a nice addition, not mandatory but helpful.
One of the best things a person can have going cross country in wilderness is a paper 1:24,000 topo map. It's all we ever used for 40 years. And still use. If I'm going to a new place like Mt Rogers backcountry or the Snowbird wilderness in NC or into Pisgah NF/Grandfather Ranger District---I won't need GPS waypoints or smartphone maps or even guide books---but I'll do everything possible to acquire the pertinent topo maps.
Here's an example of my Snowbird Creek map which kept me sane in a confusing place---and has no batteries to ever wear down.
One helpful hint is to use a red pen to mark trails and a blue pen for creeks and spring sources. Want to bushwhack up Meadow Branch to Kings Meadow trail? A good topo is all you need.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/SNOWBIRD-PRETRIP/i-8Q4cQQK/0/462c757d/XL/TRIP%20167%20066-XL.jpg
you were BURIED in a device of some sort in your hand
he was checking his Tinder....
Tipi Walter
10-09-2019, 18:09
he was checking his Tinder....
I wouldn't be checking my Tinder on the last day of a trip---as I'm done building fires.
But I definitely like having Tinder up and running at some point in the trip---either fatwood or birch bark---:)
45739
45740
Want to bushwhack up Meadow Branch to Kings Meadow trail? A good topo is all you need.
actually, i wanna do it coming down from Kings Meadow....
Patman and i had discussed doing this as he went down it a bit and found an old trail going down....
that discussion was before my hiatus of backpacking.......
I do peek at Whiteblaze a little, so I'm happy to chime in :-)
We never would have been able to build what we have without people telling each other about the app (we only started advertising in any serious way five years after we first released it), so we’re happy that people talk about it. That usually means they’re happy with what we’ve made. If the people you show the app to are interested in what they see, and go on to buy it later, that’s a better-informed purchase than it might have been otherwise. If they decide they don't need it, that’s fine, too.
I wouldn't object to someone sharing info from the app to help out another hiker. I'm glad you all are having the discussion in the first place, because it can be a bit of an ethical grey area.
Guthook! Very cool of you to stop by and chime in. Thank you - much respect,
u.w. / willin'
stephanD
10-10-2019, 08:29
Thank you, Tipi Walter, for free topography class. Very interesting and useful information.
Tipi Walter
10-10-2019, 08:44
Thank you, Tipi Walter, for free topography class. Very interesting and useful information.
Thanks for the input. A good map is the ticket price to enter the circus.
colorado_rob
10-10-2019, 08:46
he was checking his Tinder....Hah! Nothing wrong with that, assuming he's single, after 21 days in the woods. He was certainly completely engrossed in his device, whatever it was.
I think GPS devices (phones, whatever) greatly enhance maps.... Soooo easy these days to instantly pinpoint yourself on a map with your phone's GPS. This is sometimes very hard to do in the field with only a map and compass, especially in the densely forested east. Out west when you're mostly above timberline, it's very easy to navigate w/o a GPS.
And I agree with a couple of statements below about modern tech taking a bit of adventure out of it, no doubt in my mind. Still, I partake in the tech... this does make one able to do some more extreme things with an additional safety margin of always being able to retrace a route or locate yourself (on extreme stuff, I carry a small, light backup GPS in case phone fails).
Tipi Walter
10-10-2019, 10:03
Hah! Nothing wrong with that, assuming he's single, after 21 days in the woods. He was certainly completely engrossed in his device, whatever it was.
I was taking a break on the road at a pull off. I guess you drove up and walked around as a rolling tourist. Who could know? You said it happened in Beech Gap but no it happened at the Brushy Ridge overlook. No pack on your back. I was probably either looking at my camera pics or writing in my trail journal---engrossed as usual. If someone pulls up in car I pay them no mind whatsoever as in my mind they're merely gawking rolling tourists checking out the view.
And I certainly wasn't online surfing or streaming or GPSing or facebooking or live streaming cuz here's my call and text phone only---
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2018-Trips-188-/20-Days-with-a-New-McHale-Pack/i-XrLXwBn/0/e10a4274/XL/Trip%20192%20%2882%29-XL.jpg
"Completely engrossed in his device"??? This certainly isn't a device worth getting engrossed in. Ain't no smartphone that's for sure.
I was probably engrossed in my Panasonic camera and looking at 21 days worth of pics. Or I was keeping my exhaustive trail journal. Journal paper with pen is a REAL device.
45742
One of the best things a person can have going cross country in wilderness is a paper 1:24,000 topo map. It's all we ever used for 40 years. And still use. If I'm going to a new place like Mt Rogers backcountry or the Snowbird wilderness in NC or into Pisgah NF/Grandfather Ranger District---I won't need GPS waypoints or smartphone maps or even guide books---but I'll do everything possible to acquire the pertinent topo maps.
Here's an example of my Snowbird Creek map which kept me sane in a confusing place---and has no batteries to ever wear down.
One helpful hint is to use a red pen to mark trails and a blue pen for creeks and spring sources. Want to bushwhack up Meadow Branch to Kings Meadow trail? A good topo is all you need.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/SNOWBIRD-PRETRIP/i-8Q4cQQK/0/462c757d/XL/TRIP%20167%20066-XL.jpg
I would think with the number of times you’ve been doing the same areas over and over again, a map would un-necessary. Topos are great, but if your hiking long distances with multiple sections, a smart phone/gps has much more flexibility. It can also serve as a camera, stop watch/timer, notebook, voice recorder etc.
Its natural to resist change as we get older and set in our ways. Not clear why people get negative about technology and lash out against those who embrace it. Perhaps the fear of the unknown or humbling idea that we’re not up to the task.
colorado_rob
10-10-2019, 11:27
I was taking a break on the road at a pull off. I guess you drove up and walked around as a rolling tourist. Who could know? You said it happened in Beech Gap but no it happened at the Brushy Ridge overlook. No pack on your back. I was probably either looking at my camera pics or writing in my trail journal---engrossed as usual. If someone pulls up in car I pay them no mind whatsoever as in my mind they're merely gawking rolling tourists checking out the view.
And I certainly wasn't online surfing or streaming or GPSing or facebooking or live streaming cuz here's my call and text phone only---
"Completely engrossed in his device"??? This certainly isn't a device worth getting engrossed in. Ain't no smartphone that's for sure.
I was probably engrossed in my Panasonic camera and looking at 21 days worth of pics. Or I was keeping my exhaustive trail journal. Journal paper with pen is a REAL device.
Aha! Peace. I hereby withdraw my heinous accusation of teching-it on the trail. HYOH, of course.
Being a year ago, I don't remember all details (like the gap name), except that you did not look up at my greeting, though if you had, one glance (or sniff) and you would have know I was a fellow LD hiker. I imagine I was rather disappointed that you weren't receptive to a chat, since I was excited to mention how much I was enjoying the BMT, and IIRC, you (and some others) have promoted the BMT on whiteblaze.
As a side note, semi-related to this thread, a few days before Mud Gap, I got temporarily "lost" down near a creek/small river, can't remember the name, basically I missed a faint left turn at a fork because the prominent trail went right, then eventually disappeared along the river.... A quick glance at Guthook (the BMT is an optional map-set on the AT Guthook app) set me straight and I quickly corrected my error. A time/energy saver, to be sure. In this case, a paper map might have also been nearly as quick, though seeing you blue-dot position vs. the actual trail is sure handy.
Tipi Walter
10-10-2019, 11:33
Its natural to resist change as we get older and set in our ways. Not clear why people get negative about technology and lash out against those who embrace it. Perhaps the fear of the unknown or humbling idea that we’re not up to the task.
My negativity towards technology in this case is my distaste for going online during a backpacking trip. I'm all for new technologies---heck my McHale pack uses all sorts of spectra fabrics and doo-dads etc---and my digital camera ain't simple.
StephanD said it best: "I spend 10 hours a day in front of a computer. When I'm hiking last thing I want to do is looking at a screen." Amen, brother.
Using a screen to Stay Connected might be all the rage for current outdoorsmen---live streaming their hike on FB, gathering GPS points and your locations, posting your route in real time, using web maps on the phone, ETC---but I come from a civilized American world where everyone seems glued to their smartphones 24/7---while driving, shopping, sitting on couches, waiting in offices, during family gatherings, walking thru Walmarts etc. I call it the Drooling Lemming phenomenon. My opinion only.
And so I won't have any part of it while out in the woods away from people. A backpacking trip should be and is a perfect time to cut the phone and online addiction. If I needed to buy such a device to have a more fulfilling backpacking experience I'd just hang it up and stay at home and watch nascar races on television. What's the best way to see if you're addicted to phone immersion? Cut it cold turkey on a long backpacking trip.
Tipi Walter
10-10-2019, 11:47
As a side note, semi-related to this thread, a few days before Mud Gap, I got temporarily "lost" down near a creek/small river, can't remember the name, basically I missed a faint left turn at a fork because the prominent trail went right, then eventually disappeared along the river.... A quick glance at Guthook (the BMT is an optional map-set on the AT Guthook app) set me straight and I quickly corrected my error. A time/energy saver, to be sure. In this case, a paper map might have also been nearly as quick, though seeing you blue-dot position vs. the actual trail is sure handy.
If you were south of Mud Gap down by a creek that probably means you were hiking up the Sycamore Creek trail next to . . . uh . . . Sycamore Creek. There are three prominent switchbacks on this trail (a 7 mile climb from Tellico River/Fish Hatchery to Whiggs Meadow with a gain of 3,000 feet).
I'm thinking you probably missed the third switchback and went up parallel to the creek on a faint trail which ends in a small campsite right above the loud creek. I call it Hobo Camp and it's one of my fave CSs.
45744
Here's what the side trail away from the BMT looks like---with Sycamore Creek down to the right.
45745
There used to be a BMT trailsign on this post at the mentioned switchback---gone now. People don't see the switchback to the left and continue straight up into that campsite next to Sycamore Creek.
Believe it or not, some people do not have a smart phone.
The point I was trying to make is perhaps those asking for information cannot purchase Guthook because they have no smart phone. I have nothing against smart phones and technology. I do have a problem when people assume everyone has a smart phone or even internet access. A new restaurant opened a couple of years ago and has 20 craft beers on tap. The first time I was there I asked what beers to you have on tap? The waitress replied we have an app that lists the beers, their abv, ibu, etc. I aked if they had a list on paper. She said no but said I could use her phone to look at the list.
The waitress replied we have an app that lists the beers, their abv, ibu, etc. I aked if they had a list on paper. She said no but said I could use her phone to look at the list.
just outta curiosity, what do you do?
I know what i would have done (and i dont drink anymore but if they had this way for food orders)-----I would have walked out.....
but then again, i probably wouldnt have walked into a hipster doofus selling crap, errr, i mean craft beer....
TexasBob
10-10-2019, 13:46
Yes, the experience of being totally unplugged for days is one that I think people should experience at least a few times. .......
I took a road/car camping trip to Alaska this summer and spent some time in the Yukon as well. Most of the time I was without cell service on the trip. Some how I managed to survive and thrive in spite of suffering from electronic signal deficiency syndrome. ;)
stephanD
10-10-2019, 14:02
I would think with the number of times you’ve been doing the same areas over and over again, a map would un-necessary. Topos are great, but if your hiking long distances with multiple sections, a smart phone/gps has much more flexibility. It can also serve as a camera, stop watch/timer, notebook, voice recorder etc.
Its natural to resist change as we get older and set in our ways. Not clear why people get negative about technology and lash out against those who embrace it. Perhaps the fear of the unknown or humbling idea that we’re not up to the task.
You, and those who think like you, just don't get it. Reading a map is a skill, and an art. The map tells you a story, and being able to read and understand that story, is part of the enjoyment of being in nature. Got nothing to do with resistance to change or dislike of technology.
You, and those who think like you, just don't get it. Reading a map is a skill, and an art. The map tells you a story, and being able to read and understand that story, is part of the enjoyment of being in nature. Got nothing to do with resistance to change or dislike of technology.
In the words of the immortal Doc Holliday, “I beg to differ”. If reading a map is an art, a skill, then reading a gps screen is?
Hell, the stars, the moon, the wind tell a story. Early navigators used them all for traveling and used advancing technologies as they were developed.
I really don’t need to argue with you, but then again you are making my point about old people set in their ways.
lonehiker
10-10-2019, 17:08
I can remember when a great debate on WB was if using a cell phone to call ahead to make a reservation for a room was somehow cheating those that didn't have a phone (or hadn't called ahead of time)...
And I remember when there was a pay phone outside of Walasi-Yi. I called my then wife to let her know all was great. Didn't talk to her again until I got to Hot Springs, after that, not until Damascus -- weeks of blessed silence. :)
Wonder if the pay phone is still there?
Traveler
10-11-2019, 07:00
One electronic failure at a critical time is usually all one needs to rethink their map strategy. I sometimes carry a cell phone for communication purposes but always carry a paper map. It's not always about being against technology or being "too old". Its more about applying risk of failure and the accompanying level of consequence of failure, succinctly, higher risk of failure with electronics over paper, higher consequences from a failure without a map than with one. While the AT is not necessarily difficult to follow without a map, in areas like the White Mountains they are a handy tool and can be critical to survival in bad weather.
colorado_rob
10-11-2019, 11:22
One electronic failure at a critical time is usually all one needs to rethink their map strategy. I sometimes carry a cell phone for communication purposes but always carry a paper map. It's not always about being against technology or being "too old". Its more about applying risk of failure and the accompanying level of consequence of failure, succinctly, higher risk of failure with electronics over paper, higher consequences from a failure without a map than with one. While the AT is not necessarily difficult to follow without a map, in areas like the White Mountains they are a handy tool and can be critical to survival in bad weather. Wise folks reliant on cell phones for navigation when hiking in critical areas carry a backup device. Not claiming I'm particularly wise, but I do carry a backup to my cell phone for navigation.... my wife's old apple 5 phone, 5 ounces or so, all maps and my tracks/waypoints all uploaded and ready to go, but turned off, only to be used if primary device fails. (One doesn't need service on an old cell phone to do this, just load everything when in wifi). With due respect, the standard argument about cell phone failure just doesn't hold if you carry a backup. NOTHING wrong with paper maps, I love them, and still carry some form of one on most hikes (like you said, the White Mtns, for example).
But again, cell phones (the GPS part of them) are a great supplement to maps, and for the big trails with Guthook coverage, maps pretty much unnecessary, except for fun.
colorado_rob
10-11-2019, 11:28
If you were south of Mud Gap down by a creek that probably means you were hiking up the Sycamore Creek trail next to . . . uh . . . Sycamore Creek. There are three prominent switchbacks on this trail (a 7 mile climb from Tellico River/Fish Hatchery to Whiggs Meadow with a gain of 3,000 feet).
I'm thinking you probably missed the third switchback and went up parallel to the creek on a faint trail which ends in a small campsite right above the loud creek. I call it Hobo Camp and it's one of my fave CSs.
45744
Here's what the side trail away from the BMT looks like---with Sycamore Creek down to the right.
45745
There used to be a BMT trailsign on this post at the mentioned switchback---gone now. People don't see the switchback to the left and continue straight up into that campsite next to Sycamore Creek. That could easily be the place, looks kind of familiar.... Again, fuzzy memory, but there was a lot of fresh dead fall around, that may have contributed to my error, there might have been a downed tree very near the fork.
Beautiful area, and perfect time of year to hike the BMT. I saw hardly any folks, just around the private land areas. On the actual trail, I don't think I saw more than half a dozen people (I only did about 150 miles, from the south end looping clockwise west to the north end somewhere, can't quite remember w/o looking at my log, not important).
gpburdelljr
10-11-2019, 11:53
And I remember when there was a pay phone outside of Walasi-Yi. I called my then wife to let her know all was great. Didn't talk to her again until I got to Hot Springs, after that, not until Damascus -- weeks of blessed silence. :)
Wonder if the pay phone is still there?
The last time I saw it there was a booth, but no phone. Someone put a decal on it that said “Cell Phone Booth”
In the words of the immortal Doc Holliday, “I beg to differ”. If reading a map is an art, a skill, then reading a gps screen is?
Hell, the stars, the moon, the wind tell a story. Early navigators used them all for traveling and used advancing technologies as they were developed.
I really don’t need to argue with you, but then again you are making my point about old people set in their ways.
I see your confusion here. Stephan is not an old guy...he is a young whippersnapper all into that New Age mystical stuff. Real explorers had no need of maps - they made them as they went.
When did hiking become so complicated?
I don't get to the AT as much as I'd like, but was lucky enough to spend the last week on the trail. I didn't have phone service anywhere, not even in town, and I was perfectly fine with that. To be honest, I didn't even know about the app. I took a guide book and a map. I had several conversations with passing hikers about water sources, campsites, etc. When I got back to town I stopped to have a beer and the bartender was nice enough to call her friend that ran a hostel to ask if they had room for me. And the hostel didn't have wifi. Since I had no service I wasn't able to use google maps to find my way out of there and had to rely on memory to drive back to the freeway.
To each their own, but this lack of available technology enhanced my hike.