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weary
03-08-2006, 12:56
Amen. I was furious by the time I finished the Approach Trail weekend before last. Candy wrappers, Gatorade bottles, snack bags, a Weber grill on top of Frosty Mountain... Right now I see that as one of the things that "matter". With blatant littering and vandalism so obvious, I just can't work up the concern for what strikes me as wear and tear by trail pedestrians. I would feel justified in confronting someone dropping wrappers on the trail. At least there are laws in place making that illegal.
Trails I walked on in the 60s and 70s were pretty much as AbeHikes describes on the approach trail today. Cans and papers littered the routes. Every fire place had a can dump next to it.

A lot of people cleaned up that trash and things improved immensely in the following decades -- only to get worse recently. The question is why. I think Bryson's book that dealt with litter as something to laugh at probably is one reason. I know I saw very little approach trail litter when I climbed it in mid-April of 1993.

But I also think the old motto, "Carry In; Carry Out" was more effective than the more philosophical, "Leave No Trace," which strikes me as widely ignored. Questions: Is litter really worse now? If so why? What can be done about it? ....?

Weary

Lone Wolf
03-08-2006, 12:58
Why? Books, DVDs and the internet are bringing people to the trail in droves.

weary
03-08-2006, 13:01
Why? Books, DVDs and the internet are bringing people to the trail in droves.
That was certainly true through around 2000. But according to the Appalachian Trail Conservancy, use has been going steadily down since then.

Lone Wolf
03-08-2006, 13:05
Then it's probably caused by younger hikers that were brought up poorly. Slobs. No manners. Selfish. Apathetic.

Ridge
03-08-2006, 13:07
The quality of hiker seems to have been going down hill for a long time. Its disgusting seeing all the trash in fire-pits and on the trail, not just at the trail-heads, but deep into the trail. Cigarette butts, toilet paper, cans, bottles, wrappers, etc. I'm beginning to think the motto is "Carry in, Leave in". I expect this spring will bring a load of hikers along with loads of trash. LNT seems to have gone by the wayside far a large number of trail users, most have never even heard of it. It seems the cleanest spot on or near the trail are the inside of trash cans.

Alligator
03-08-2006, 13:10
The quality of hiker seems to have been going down hill for a long time. Its disgusting seeing all the trash in fire-pits and on the trail, not just at the trail-heads, but deep into the trail. Cigarette butts, toilet paper, cans, bottles, wrappers, etc. I'm beginning to think the motto is "Carry in, Leave in". I expect this spring will bring a load of hikers along with loads of trash. LNT seems to have gone by the wayside far a large number of trail users, most have never even heard of it. It seems the cleanest spot on or near the trail are the inside of trash cans.
So what approaches are recommended by your club?

Ridge
03-08-2006, 13:12
Then it's probably caused by younger hikers that were brought up poorly. Slobs. No manners. Selfish. Apathetic.

Several years ago I mailed a box of garbage, including religious pamphlets, and various other litter left by a large church group, to the said church. I explained to them they surely must be looking for all the garbage they left, after all godliness and cleanliness goes hand and hand, right?

Almost There
03-08-2006, 13:16
Other thing I have been noticing in Ga. is that many of the bear proof garbage cans have been removed. Don't know why but I know Xmas, Chief and I noticed it at Gooch Gap last weekend and Skidsteer mentioned it at Dick's Creek. Not to say this is an excuse I have packed out my share of other people's cigarette butts, etc. But the cans do encourage people to throw out their trash...maybe the forest service/park service can't "afford" it anymore...

weary
03-08-2006, 13:17
In my experience over the years, litter seems to breed litter. Once a trail is trashed others seem to just add more junk without seriously thinking about it. One solution to keeping the mess manageable is for maintainers -- and hikers -- to pick up trash early and often, thus reducing the overall volume.

Weary

AbeHikes
03-08-2006, 13:55
I don't know the answer to your question, but it definitely pissed me off. I'm raising 3 kids. I shouldn't need to pick up after adults... with pockets.

Spirit Walker
03-08-2006, 14:53
The AT gets a lot of users who have little or no previous hiking experience. Many of them really have never heard of "pack it in pack it out" or leave no trace. Many don't understand that some things don't burn completely in a fire. Most don't even notice when they tear off the corner of a granola bar and it falls to the ground. Many assume that banana peels or oranges or nut shells will biodegrade sooner rather than later. Some don't realize that you don't use soap in a spring, or wash your dishes and/or hair in the water source. (Yes, it's biodegradable, but it takes three years to break down.) It takes experience and education - which many new hikers don't get before they start the trail. That means it's up to us, who have experience, to gently let them know when their behavior is inappropriate. Not that it seems to do much good - but at least let them think about the fact that what they are doing is trashing up the backcountry. Next time they may not do it. I have confronted people more than once on issues like leaving garbage in the firepit, carving names in shelters, washing dishes with soap in the stream, etc. Though I try to be nice - I still come off as a bitch. Doesn't matter. Keeping my mouth shut and ignoring the issue makes me feel a lot worse.

Ridge
03-08-2006, 15:08
I have seen USFS employees tossing wrappers and bottles on the ground after having lunch somewhere on USFS lands. Logging operations on USFS lands leave everything from oil and diesel spills to their other litter. It seems to never stop and its a fact the people that litter far outnumber those who pick up.

terrapin05
03-08-2006, 16:33
The 5 cent refund on bottles and cans(and should be water bottles)is one method that has worked all over NewEngland ,MI,and CA Not only good for aesthetics,but it is an incentive to recycle. The kid who gets to keep all those nickels he picks up or doesnt throw out..soon learns the value of recycling,hence we all win.

Spirit Walker
03-08-2006, 16:49
When we hiked the CDT in New Mexico the jeep roads were lined with beer cans, thousands of beer cans. (FWIW - The overwhelming majority were Bud and Bud Lite.) I kept wishing they had deposits on the cans - it would have made such a difference. At one overlook, with a terrific view of a wilderness area below, there were dozens of cans. I kept picturing some guy grunting, "Nice wilderness" as he tossed his can out the window.

icemanat95
03-10-2006, 22:23
It's not just hikers.

I remember in the early to middle seventies there was the keep America beautiful campaign with the Indian riding into what should be a beautiful vista and finding a trash heap then shedding a tear. That was an effective campaign. Things started getting cleaned up. Somewhere along the line though people got stupid and lazy and started tossing things out the windows of their cars as they drove, they toss bottles and cans, baby diapers, whatever comes to hand that they don't want to carry to the next trash bin. The individual just doesn't see that their little bit of littering is going to have that much of an affect. But Every few weeks, I've got to go out to my woodline and pick trash out of the border because some slobs tossed trash out of their car or lost control of it while opening the door and instead of chasing it down, let the wind take it. I also find crap on the trails through my woods prompting me to seriously consider posting my property.

The litter on the trails is just a little bit of what is happening in society as a whole.

weary
03-11-2006, 01:21
Iceman:

I've been walking our town land trust lands during the past few weeks in preparation for our annual Spring newsletter. It's my experience that long term walkers routinely pick up their trash. It's the newcomers that create litter problems.

Hey. Weary here:

mambo_tango
03-11-2006, 01:43
Then it's probably caused by younger hikers that were brought up poorly. Slobs. No manners. Selfish. Apathetic.

Taking after the parents no doubt. Hello? Baby boomers? :-? Not exactly a sterling example IMHO. I do my very best not to litter (just don't look in my room or my car - hey it is all contained!). I think laziness is a chronic problem throughout any generation.

eyewall
03-11-2006, 01:45
I live in Iowa where there is a 5cent deposit on all cans and bottles. It really makes a difference. But you still see yahoos throwing crap out cars. I can not for the life of me understand why smokers throw cigarettes out the window when in their car that they paid 10 grand for has an ashtray in it. When I lived in Mississippi in the 70s, there was trash everywhere. I personally think its a lack of respect and forethought. My grandfather kicked my butt if I threw stuff out a car window. He would stop and make me walk back to pick it up. I think we need more of that...you only do it once or twice, then it sinks in...

weary
03-11-2006, 08:06
....I do my very best not to litter (just don't look in my room or my car - hey it is all contained!). I think laziness is a chronic problem throughout any generation.
That's how I tell litterers. If they drive a dirty and cluttered car I know the stuff isn't going onto the highway. An uncluttered car should be accepted by the courts as prima facie evidence that the occupants litter.

Weary

Kerosene
03-11-2006, 11:16
That's how I tell litterers. If they drive a dirty and cluttered car I know the stuff isn't going onto the highway. An uncluttered car should be accepted by the courts as prima facie evidence that the occupants litter.I'll take exception to this. It's not that hard to keep the interior of your car immaculate without throwing stuff out the window.

micromega
03-11-2006, 12:03
I think Bryson's book that dealt with litter as something to laugh at probably is one reason - Weary


When we hiked the CDT in New Mexico the jeep roads were lined with beer cans - Spirit Walker

"Tossing his empty beer can out the window, Hayduke races north, through the Indian country." - Edward Abbey, The Monkey Wrench Gang

The quotes from Weary and Spirit Walker reminded me of that line from Abbey. Granted, Abbey was dealing with greater things, fighting dams and urban sprawl and roads where roads were never meant to be, and a beer can is a trivial thing in comparison. But the words are there and times have changed and people still read the book.

mambo_tango
03-11-2006, 12:03
I'll take exception to this. It's not that hard to keep the interior of your car immaculate without throwing stuff out the window.

Oooh. What's your secret?:confused:

AbeHikes
03-11-2006, 12:51
Oooh. What's your secret?:confused:

The same way you do it on the hike. When you finish your travel, you take it with you. My wife doesn't get it either. Blames it on the kids.

Mountain Man
03-11-2006, 13:55
It's not just hikers.

I remember in the early to middle seventies there was the keep America beautiful campaign with the Indian riding into what should be a beautiful vista and finding a trash heap then shedding a tear. That was an effective campaign. Things started getting cleaned up. Somewhere along the line though people got stupid and lazy and started tossing things out the windows of their cars as they drove, they toss bottles and cans, baby diapers, whatever comes to hand that they don't want to carry to the next trash bin. The individual just doesn't see that their little bit of littering is going to have that much of an affect. But Every few weeks, I've got to go out to my woodline and pick trash out of the border because some slobs tossed trash out of their car or lost control of it while opening the door and instead of chasing it down, let the wind take it. I also find crap on the trails through my woods prompting me to seriously consider posting my property.

The litter on the trails is just a little bit of what is happening in society as a whole.


I agree 100% I also remember that "Keep America Beautiful Campiagn" and wish they would bring back that very same one on TV. There diffentally needs to be more enviromental/ conservation education now days. It's something we don't see much of anymore. The thing I love about the Len Foote Hike Inn at Amicalola Falls "thats the main goal".

weary
03-11-2006, 14:14
I'll take exception to this. It's not that hard to keep the interior of your car immaculate without throwing stuff out the window.
Hey, Kerosene. I was joshing, well sort of anyway.

Kerosene
03-11-2006, 15:21
I know.

It really isn't all that hard to keep my car clean, but a lot of it is discipline. While I do have to eat in the car at times, I always clean things out at my next rest stop or at home. I don't even keep a mini-trash pocket in the car anymore.

Of course, then there is my offspring, who can't seem to remember that she just stuffed a candy wrapper in the armrest and never seems to see the stuff she's left behind and gets upset at me when I remind her, repeatedly, to take care of her mess. Ahh, teenagers.

Alligator
03-11-2006, 22:54
Oooh. What's your secret?:confused:
Keep a stash of grocery bags in the car. I hook one on the armrest of the passenger seat. It's simple and efficient.

Alligator
03-11-2006, 22:59
I know.

It really isn't all that hard to keep my car clean, but a lot of it is discipline. While I do have to eat in the car at times, I always clean things out at my next rest stop or at home. I don't even keep a mini-trash pocket in the car anymore.

Of course, then there is my offspring, who can't seem to remember that she just stuffed a candy wrapper in the armrest and never seems to see the stuff she's left behind and gets upset at me when I remind her, repeatedly, to take care of her mess. Ahh, teenagers.
AAh wives too! What is it with candy wrappers:confused:. I think it's a minor mental illness, lol.

Alligator
03-11-2006, 23:35
The places I see litter the worst are at road crossings, shelters, and easily accessible viewpoints. Along the trail--transiting between points--it generally seems pretty decent. Garbage does seem to breed garbage.

In reference to the shelters, does anyone think it might be that people have lightened up so much that even carrying a garbage bag is anathema, with loose garbage having a tendency to slop out readily? I think this was mentioned somewhere else on site, but could a campaign of strategically placed--at a shelter perhaps-- lightweight but sturdy small bags make a difference?

It would be cool if the bags had print on them, some kind of message. Oh, and some kind of deposit, redeemable somewhere when returned full. We would want to avoid someone stealing the whole roll. Or instead of having the bags at the shelters, maybe give them out specifically to hikers. Get outfitters involved somehow.

I would think that packing out one's garbage is a message repeatedly encountered by backpackers, yet the congregation point of hikers, shelters, do not seem to reflect this. Even "deep woods" shelters.

Here's another crazy thought. Instead of a deposit, you get points like skeeball. You get enough points by turning in bags of trash, you cash in for a synthetic tee:
"I didn't finish the AT but I collected enough trash for this shirt".
"I thru hiked the AT and picked up enough trash to earn this shirt."
"I'm hiker trash but I earned it."


OK fire away, I'm wide open here:sun .

Klezmorim
03-12-2006, 12:14
We noticed quite a bit of litter from the Army Rangers playing "soldier" on Hightower Gap this past November/December. They left spent practice ordinance and MRE wrappers all over the place.

Ah, how typical of the US military: make a royal mess and leave it to the civilians to clean up later.

(I am now seeking shelter as the incoming rounds are about to be lobbed my way! :eek: )

icemanat95
03-12-2006, 13:27
The same way you do it on the hike. When you finish your travel, you take it with you. My wife doesn't get it either. Blames it on the kids.


My wife's car had recently taken on the smell of sileage. If you don't know what sileage smells like, go to a dairy farm some time and you'll see these long low sort of open-top bunkers made of concrete block and with stuff mounded up under tarps in there. What's in there is corn stalks and other vegetable matter that can be used for animal feed. It's usually in some stage of decay, and the smell can be truly evil. That's sileage.

Yesterday my wife decides to clean out her car to discover the source of the smell. emptying a whole trash bag out from under seats and footwells. The source of the smell was a full bag of no-non-frozen peas, that had fallen into a gap behind the back seat. Fortunately it was winter and the rot was retarded by frequent re-freezing.

My truck is far from immaculate, but I pick up the trash regularly enough to avoid those sorts of finds.

longshank
03-19-2006, 15:57
I believe this problem is indicative of the singl-serving disposable society we live in, or, more to the point, created for ourselves. Teach the public to be more responsible and educated consumers and we'll have our begining.

DawnTreader
03-19-2006, 22:18
The ridgerunners in new hampshire and maine are awsome. I met Sarah from piazza rock lean to, and her job was to teach groups traveling the trail leave no trace ethics. I watched her teaching a group of kids and they were really listening to her. This is how we can solve the problem.. everyone spread the word on the trail.. talk to people about it, and maybe more litter will be carried out, even if it isn't yours, pick it up....

weary
03-20-2006, 08:53
Since medical malpractice forced me give up maintaining my AT section, I mostly see local land trust trails. I find very little litter left by walkers and hikers, but quite a bit left by fishermen.

As winter wanes I've picked up a dozen plastic water jugs, many paper coffee cups, a lot of beer and soda cans apparently left by ice fishermen on the pond the borders our 250 acre preserve.

Still to be removed are two large tarps, a broken kitchen chair and some fully packed plastic bags that I have yet to investigate in any detail.

Most irritating is a third paint ball attack. I've picked up 100s of exploded and unexploded paint balls from the trail and been forced to pack in soapy water to clean the trail signs I spent a week routing and painting last summer.

So far I haven't been able to catch anyone in the act. But I will eventually.

And of course ATVs are the worst offenders, both in terms of litter and an terms of trail damage. ATVs took advantage of the January thaw to rut our most used hiking trail and to add to the erosion that is gradually destroying a pretty undeveloped pond I've spent two decades trying to protect.

Weary

Ridge
03-22-2006, 13:53
..................And of course ATVs are the worst offenders, both in terms of litter and an terms of trail damage. ATVs took advantage of the January thaw to rut our most used hiking trail and to add to the erosion that is gradually destroying a pretty undeveloped pond I've spent two decades trying to protect.Weary

I'm surprised you don't have trouble with mountain bikes along with the ATV's.

icemanat95
03-22-2006, 14:02
Since medical malpractice forced me give up maintaining my AT section, I mostly see local land trust trails. I find very little litter left by walkers and hikers, but quite a bit left by fishermen.

As winter wanes I've picked up a dozen plastic water jugs, many paper coffee cups, a lot of beer and soda cans apparently left by ice fishermen on the pond the borders our 250 acre preserve.

Still to be removed are two large tarps, a broken kitchen chair and some fully packed plastic bags that I have yet to investigate in any detail.

Most irritating is a third paint ball attack. I've picked up 100s of exploded and unexploded paint balls from the trail and been forced to pack in soapy water to clean the trail signs I spent a week routing and painting last summer.

So far I haven't been able to catch anyone in the act. But I will eventually.

And of course ATVs are the worst offenders, both in terms of litter and an terms of trail damage. ATVs took advantage of the January thaw to rut our most used hiking trail and to add to the erosion that is gradually destroying a pretty undeveloped pond I've spent two decades trying to protect.

Weary

If there is a path that gets particular attention from the vandals, get yourself a trail monitoring camera from a hunting supply store (like Kittery Trading Post or LL Bean, and set it up in a likely spot (camouflaged so it doesn't become a target or get stolen. Someone will know the miscreants.

The problem with local trails is that they are usually easy to get to, which equates to easy to vandalize.

What is the name of that particular preserve. I may find some time to visit the next time I am up to visit my sister and her brood, they are in Yarmouth.

icemanat95
03-22-2006, 14:03
Weary,

What happened to you medically?

weary
03-31-2006, 13:51
Weary,

What happened to you medically?
I had a heart valve replaced three years ago last summer. The surgeon in Portland sent me home with a three month prescription for a low dose of Amiodarone, a common medicine used to regulate the heart rhythym, but with a history of causing inflamation of the lungs, which turns into scar tissue, i.e. fibrosis of the lungs. One study I read said 17 percent of persons with affected lungs die of fibrosis.

My local cardiologist doubled the dose and extended the time to a year -- which practically means forever. Three months later I went from being able to walk a five-mile woodland trail in two hours to not being able to get to the top of the driveway to pick up the mail.

I called the cardiologist. He examined me. Said to keep exercising and to come back in a year for a check up.

The condition worsened. My wife called a lung specialist. He stopped all the medicines. Things got better and I went back to walking my five mile trail.

But Amiodarone has a half life in the body of six months or longer and things worsened again. A lung function test showed 80 percent of "expected" capacity. New tests last spring and fall both showed 40 percent of expected capacity.

I go in in two weeks for another test to see whether things have stabilized, or gotten worse.

I can still walk my five miles (4.75 actually) but it now takes three hours, sometimes longer.

The preserve where the paint ball vandals frequent is the Center POnd Preserve. Take route 209 from Bath to Phippsburg. After 6-7 miles turn left onto the Parker Head Road. Go through a pretty village and past an ancient (1802) church. Cross a causeway that creates Center Pond. The parking lot is on the right, halfway up the hill from the causeway.

I think the Perimeter TRail is the nicest woodland trail in this part of Maine.

WEary

JoeHiker
03-31-2006, 18:16
I think Bryson's book that dealt with litter as something to laugh at probably is one reason.
It never seems to amaze me the ridiculous things people attribute to one book. As if people suddenly rejected a lifetime of manners and parental instruction (or lack thereof) and started thinking it was OK to throw crap on the trail because Bill Bryson once wrote about a clown who hiked with him who did that.

weary
03-31-2006, 19:38
The following appeared this week in a paper where I worked many years ago. I remember the debate well. I wrote dozens of news stories including a series of questions and answers including one that began with a silly claim by the beverage industry against returnable containers and ended when I had tricked the spokesman into admitting it was a silly claim.

I forget the details. Something about everyone that ordered a coke in a restaurant would have to pay the server a nickle and then get their nickle back from the server when they left.

Some thought that one story may have provided the narrow margin of referendum victory. Realistically, the difference in resources between the two sides probably won the victory. People seemed to resent that the industry spend several million dollars, as compared to the few hundred thousands spent by proponents of returnables.

Wednesday, March 29, 2006

COLUMN: Bill Nemitz


Dumping on ex-Mainer's bottle bill

If Marge Davis had a nickel for every bottle and can she sees lying along the roadside near her home, she'd be . . . never mind. Down in her neck of the woods, it's not going to happen anytime soon.

"It certainly will not pass this year," Davis, who grew up in Portland and now lives in Mount Juliet, Tenn., said of her beloved bottle bill, which gets its first hearing before Tennessee's legislature today. "These things are so incremental - it took California 10 years to pass a bottle bill."

That's right, folks. Three decades after Maine decided to put its money where its empties were - and in the process cleaned up its roadsides virtually overnight - many states continue to trash returnable bottles and cans as the work of environmental extremists who'll stop at nothing to . . . cut down on litter?

States like Tennessee, where Davis has lived since 1979.

"I had a news crew out at my house last spring and we went out to the road and started counting empties," she recalled. At 5 cents per container, "I had up to $2 without even moving my feet."

It is, Davis believes, a cultural thing. While most Mainers now wouldn't dream of rolling down the car window and tossing an empty to the wind, Tennesseans do it all the time.

And while most Mainers waste no time picking up those Bud Light cans that occasionally do end up on the roadside, Tennesseans let them grow into local landmarks. Davis' Tennessee Bottle Bill Project recently held its annual "Message in a Bottle" photo contest. The winners (posted at www.tnbottlebill.org) look like the aftermath of a Maine charity bottle drive - minus the big check and smiling faces.

"I love the South. I've been here for half my life," said Davis. "But the fact is, we have a fairly nonprogressive record when it comes to things that are environmentally friendly."

She's tried to cite Maine, where she still summers, as an example that Tennessee would do well to follow. She even brought her bill's sponsor, state Rep. Russell Johnson, up here in December to show him how we do it - starting with those "reverse vending machines" that gobble up empties and spit back receipts.

"He thought that was great fun," Davis said.

But alas, Davis and Johnson so far are no match for the beverage industry. Year after year, the beer and soft-drink lobbyists have crushed bottle bills in Tennessee and the 38 other states that still lack them - just as they tried in the late 1970s to thwart returnables here in Maine.

Davis can't believe the slanders she's heard her opponents hurl at her home state: Maine's food stores are crawling with rodents drawn by the scent of dried Sprite. Maine forces - that's right, forces - its citizens to recycle all of their household trash . . .

"They even say Mainers don't eat fast food, so therefore they don't have as much litter," she said.

Davis tries her best to set the record straight. She tells Tennessee lawmakers how many times she's asked people in Maine if they'd do it all over again - and how they universally respond that the bottle bill is the best thing that ever happened to the Pine Tree State.

Along with, of course, the ban on billboards.

"We have those too," lamented Davis.


Columnist Bill Nemitz can be contacted at 791-6323 or at:

[email protected]

weary
04-01-2006, 10:12
It never seems to amaze me the ridiculous things people attribute to one book. As if people suddenly rejected a lifetime of manners and parental instruction (or lack thereof) and started thinking it was OK to throw crap on the trail because Bill Bryson once wrote about a clown who hiked with him who did that.
Well, since no one knows for sure why litter is suddenly increasing on hiking trails, perhaps we should use a bit of reasoning.

I guess all of us who either drive or walk can agree that littering is a common phenomenon in this country. Walkers see the litter. All drivers have witnessed stuff flying from cars ahead of them.

For quite a few years now the primary message against litter has been the slogans "Carry In, Carry Out" and "Leave No Trace" aimed at the walking community.

"Leave no Trace" strikes me as less effective than the older "Carry In, Carry Out." But we all have heard the messages and most of us walkers abide by them.

Now inject a very popular trail book -- a book that has sold more copies than all previous such books combined -- but also a book that makes light of litter, that treats litter a one of the fun things that happen on trails.

"A Walk in the Woods" certainly inspired previously non walkers to suddenly get out in the mountains and hills. Scores of new hikers have told White Blaze that it was Bryson that inspired them to attempt a long distance hike.

Therefore it seems plausible at least that some of those newcomers to the trails did so with little or no knowledge of "Leave No Trace," but fond memories of Brysons very funny treatment of litter.

The fact remains that litter increased after "A Walk in the Woods" becaame the all time hiking best seller. I have postulated one possible explanation. What is your theory JoeHiker?

From years of working on trails and campsites I can attest that litter breeds litter. If I can't Carry Out trash all the trash left by hikers at a campsite, I know from experience that when I come back others will have added to the pile. Most hikers seem to have no qualms about adding their tiny bits of waste when there is already a lot of trash at a shelter. Unless I can remove all the litter, I know that others will add to the pile almost without thinking.

A clean trail tends to stay clean for awhile at least. A dirty trail seems to always get dirtier.

Weary

Mother's Finest
04-01-2006, 11:33
hey weary.
you are so right about the power of a book.
when i was in elementary school, two of my favorite books in the library were The Lorax and The Wump World. Both tales of man vs. nature, with the end result of man destroying nature.
look them up on the web. powerful poetry, especially the lorax
peace
MF

illininagel
04-01-2006, 11:41
I remember in the early to middle seventies there was the keep America beautiful campaign with the Indian riding into what should be a beautiful vista and finding a trash heap then shedding a tear. That was an effective campaign.

That "Keep America Beautiful" campaign made a lasting impact on me when I was a kid. I still have vivid memories of that public service announcement.

Cookerhiker
04-01-2006, 14:06
If we're talking about books demonstrating cavalier attitudes to litter, what about Edward Abbey's writings? Chicking beer cans out of car windows? I've seen more litter in the SW than the East which doesn't trivialize the problem in the East. Try driving in the desert outside Tucson or Las Vegas - litter is ubiquitious. Of course the openness of the west undoubtedly makes it easier to see.

Re. "America the Beautiful." I cynically assert that such a campaign nowadays is counter to the current political climate; our "leaders" concept of "beauty" is high quarterly earnings, campaign contributions, real estate development, chain stores and fast-food joints and privitization of hitherto public functions. "Beautifying America" goes against their disdain for public commons. Their idea of "green space" is chemically-fed monocultural grass at private golf courses for the elite. But at least you won't find litter there!

Mother's Finest
04-01-2006, 17:42
first time I have read it in at least 25 years....
brought a tear to my eye.

http://www.ekcsk12.org/science/regbio/LoraxStory.htm

peace
mf

Hoby
04-02-2006, 01:15
I have seen USFS employees tossing wrappers and bottles on the ground after having lunch somewhere on USFS lands. Logging operations on USFS lands leave everything from oil and diesel spills to their other litter. It seems to never stop and its a fact the people that litter far outnumber those who pick up.

It's hard for me to imagine that there are hikers out there that would litter. The whole point is to get out in nature and to see that around just takes away from it. But more than half? Wow! This sucks. I will be out there someday hiking and when I do I will bring a trash bag.

Burn
04-02-2006, 09:44
while hiking in 04 i ran into an old starting buddy and his girl friend for lunch. as they finished before me and prepared to move on, the guy places all his plastics and paper into the fire pit and says " the people tonight will need something to use for kindling."

it never occurred to me that they wouldn't use their own trash as a kindling source, yet it is very thoughtful on such a windy day to leve yer trash for the next guy as a fire starter.

i am often puzzled by the ethics of all this. the guy was dead serious. Also the folks who pack it out assume responcibility for doing the same thing, just we call littering at a landfill responcible, and perhaps we create a renewable fuel, methane...i doubt seriously that it is harvested much these days.

While hiking, we had many discussions along these lines. Higher values. Richness of the natural spirit. Hogwash of the marketing of ideals.

Some suggested that in fact it might possibly be less of a hazard to the environment if we didn't place all our garbage in landfills near our major water sources and megalopolises, in fact we might be damning ourselves more by this instead of spreading the refuce in more remote areas with far less limited impact.

I think you might find, that in fact many have differing ethics that fall within their own moral and educational levels, and some were very moral and very educated, which allow them to think thru this issue and come up with differing approaches.

frankly i think the guy was more interested in going lite than leave no trace.
I burnt the trash cause i see no issue with the burning and more issue with the trash for everyone to see. Personal preference won out. I do pick up litter from time to time. I don't always burn everything in site either.

I remember well when we did pizza at Pearisburg, 3 miles out, past the nuclear landfill for gypsom or whatever they have been dumping there, we burnt everything, the paper the plastic the left overs, not anything left. The 2 guys from Hawaii who were instrumental in the Seirra Club there, suggested that it didn't upset them since i burnt my plastics. I had earned environmental credits for not exsposing the world to my vehicular emmissions not driving the previous 3 months. Odd. Interesting. Provocative actually to me. I still muse over that one. Tho ethically the burning to me doesn't trigger anything, the ethics that allows one and not the other is quite damning.

I would say, weary, the reason more litter is everywhere, even amongst thru hikers even in the most remoate areas is simply world view. Folks are torn inwardly by the actions on every front, except their own, perhaps.

I have been wrong before.

Burn
04-02-2006, 09:51
oh, i noticed on history channel that someone built an almost identical walking machine that is depicted in the good Dr's books and actually uses environmental issues and impact issues as a means of marketing their ideals of harvesting the rich forest of its best trees.

marketing of ideals...hmmm

maybe we have become what the Dr dreaded....hmmmm, but wasn't his book a product of those pulp mill trees on shabby timber plantations...oh the dicodomy of life

Mountain Man
04-25-2006, 21:24
Trails I walked on in the 60s and 70s were pretty much as AbeHikes describes on the approach trail today. Cans and papers littered the routes. Every fire place had a can dump next to it.

A lot of people cleaned up that trash and things improved immensely in the following decades -- only to get worse recently. The question is why. I think Bryson's book that dealt with litter as something to laugh at probably is one reason. I know I saw very little approach trail litter when I climbed it in mid-April of 1993.

But I also think the old motto, "Carry In; Carry Out" was more effective than the more philosophical, "Leave No Trace," which strikes me as widely ignored. Questions: Is litter really worse now? If so why? What can be done about it? ....?


Weary


The Georgia Ridgerunner just came in this evening after ten days on the trail. He had picked up a lot of trash so we decided to weigh it just to see what it weighed. The result was 27 lbs of garbage not including gear that was left. It made me think back about a book I remember reading by Ed Garvey years ago and while he hiked the trail he picked up trash as he went along. It would kind of be tough for one person to pick up all the trash you see now days. It sure would be nice if it didn't get thrown down in the first place. But if most of the hiking communitty IMO would follow Ed Garveys example (including myself) and picked up what we saw and hauled it out, the trail would look a lot better and no one person would have to carry so much extra weight. Yeah I know that some already does this and to those a big thanks. You know they are always a lot of talk concerning cell phones, hiking poles,dogs, and so many other issues I can't name them all but this trash thing gets under my skin worst than it all.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
04-26-2006, 11:09
Several years ago I mailed a box of garbage, including religious pamphlets, and various other litter left by a large church group, to the said church. I explained to them they surely must be looking for all the garbage they left, after all godliness and cleanliness goes hand and hand, right?This made me shoot my morning coffee out of my nose. Thank you for my morning laughter.

My $0.02 on why there is more litter is two-fold. First, poor training on LNT technique coupled with a pervasive feeling that someone else will take care of it. The second factor - people are vacationing closer to home and in less expensive venues because extremely high fuel costs have made this necessary. We are going many, many more people who don't understand the basic concept underlying LNT: If you don't leave the wilderness clean, it won't be clean when you return

Amigi'sLastStand
05-29-2006, 12:41
Then it's probably caused by younger hikers that were brought up poorly. Slobs. No manners. Selfish. Apathetic.

Wow, that's blatant generalization. I like reading your posts, I almost always stop at them in a thread, but this is just ridiculous. I have seen ppl from all walks of life litter on trails, not set a fire ring, keep snow cups on their poles in spring, etc. etc. Things that are very harmful to trails.

IMHO, the sixties "freedom" thing ruined quite a bit of good ol' values that have not been passed on to your or my generation and so on. One of them being respect. You can see it in ppl who were raised by their grandparents, ppl of the 20's, the Depression, WWII... My best of friends was raised by his grandparents and he is by far the most civilized, respectful human I have ever met. But way back when, his values were common.

Liberty = Freedom WITH responsibility.

weary
05-29-2006, 14:05
....
IMHO, the sixties "freedom" thing ruined quite a bit of good ol' values that have not been passed on to your or my generation and so on. One of them being respect. You can see it in ppl who were raised by their grandparents, ppl of the 20's, the Depression, WWII... My best of friends was raised by his grandparents and he is by far the most civilized, respectful human I have ever met. But way back when, his values were common. ....
As bad as the resurgence of litter is, it is far less than occurred prior to the mid 70s. The 60s were not the cause of litter. The 60s was when the first reforms got underway -- a time when environmental activism began emerging.

Until then "bow" beds -- the soft tips of fir, spruce and pine trees for sleeping --were routine. Every fire place had it's can dump along side. I cleaned up dozens of can dumps in the late 60s and early 70s, until gradually the concept of "carry in, carry out." became common place.

But it was a slow change. In the mid 70s I spoke to the Fin and Feather club of Millinocket, Me, in the shadow of Katahdin -- then and now the premier "sportsman's" organization in Maine. Not one member agreed with my plea that members should pack out their litter. "What do you want us to do with the trash?" members declared. "The nearest dump is 100 miles away."

But change eventually came. The first editions of Ed Garvey's Appalachian Hiker certainly helped persuade long distance hikers. Ed thru hiked with a supply of trash bags, taking out not only his trash, but all the trash he found on the trails and campsites. Trails and campsites became dramatically cleaner through the late 70s, 80s and early 90s.

Sadly trash began reemerging as the 21st century got underway. Why is anyone's guess. I suspect Bryson's book, which glorified litter, contributed to the change.

But I'm convinced also that the substitution of the impossible "Lrave No Trace," goal for the simple "Carry in, Carry out" message was a major reason.

It's clear that "Leave No Trace," is not a message that resonates with hikers carrying sharp-pointed hiking poles leaving holes with every step.

The jury may be still out about whether the holes are harmful or not, but they surely leave a trace.

Weary

LuTotten
05-30-2006, 10:32
Has anyone ever noticed how you see one person run a stop sign or red light and get away with it and it seems each time someone sees this and says well if he doesnt stop for them why should I? So he goes and runs it and the cycle continues. For a while it would go in spurts, then it just never stopped. I think litter tends to follow this same pattern.
Unfortunatly my fiance wasnt brought up the same way as me, I've spent the last 3 years trying to get through to him that even the gum he spits out his car window is litter. I also take care of 2 boys who are future thru hikers, they go to a private school that is very environmentally based, yet I was baffled the first time I saw the younger one throw an apple core back in the woods. I made him go pick it up as well as the granola bar wrapper someone else threw back there. Now when I take them hiking everything goes either in the pockets or the backpack without me saying a word. So why is it that we can change the ways of a child so easily, when adults take 3 years? It may take a while to start working, but educate the kids and the problem might one day go away. And for the adults...give every hiker the power to write them a ticket for littering...a few fines and the problem will go away. May not help the roadways but at least we'll be protecting the trail.

Ridge
05-30-2006, 15:45
[quote=LuTotten]Has anyone ever noticed how you see one person run a stop sign or red light and get away with it and it seems each time someone sees this and says well if he doesnt stop for them why should I? So he goes and runs it and the cycle continues. For a while it would go in spurts, then it just never stopped. I think litter tends to follow this same pattern......... [quote]

You are so right. Everyone has their idea of "Leave No Trace", I think of it when I see all the hundreds of holes in the ground left in the trail by hikers with steel tipped walking sticks. Even if they don't litter, spit gum, toss butts, toss apple cores, they are still a long way from "Leaving No Trace"!!!

general
05-30-2006, 17:40
[quote=LuTotten]Has anyone ever noticed how you see one person run a stop sign or red light and get away with it and it seems each time someone sees this and says well if he doesnt stop for them why should I? So he goes and runs it and the cycle continues. For a while it would go in spurts, then it just never stopped. I think litter tends to follow this same pattern......... [quote]

You are so right. Everyone has their idea of "Leave No Trace", I think of it when I see all the hundreds of holes in the ground left in the trail by hikers with steel tipped walking sticks. Even if they don't litter, spit gum, toss butts, toss apple cores, they are still a long way from "Leaving No Trace"!!!

holes from hiking sticks help to loosen soil near the side of the trail, thus promoting new and vigerous plant growth.

Ridge
05-31-2006, 00:55
[quote=general holes from hiking sticks help to loosen soil near the side of the trail, thus promoting new and vigerous plant growth.[/quote]

Quote from "Parks Canada"
"Walking Sticks

The increased use of walking sticks and ski poles has added to the erosion problems on the trail. Use your walking aids only on snowfields or where you need them to ensure safety; avoid using walking sticks on the exposed trail."


http://www.pc.gc.ca/lhn-nhs/yt/chilkoot/activ/activ1e_E.asp#walking


I guess the NP Service in Canada is wrong too.

SGT Rock
05-31-2006, 02:59
The places I see litter the worst are at road crossings, shelters, and easily accessible viewpoints. Along the trail--transiting between points--it generally seems pretty decent. Garbage does seem to breed garbage. Totally agree with this. The worst spots on my trail are sections where there is easy access by boat or car. It seems if people see a place with trash, they think it is alright to leave it. The absolute worst spot is a place where the rangers have put a garbage can (boat and trail access only to this spot) it is normally overflowing with trash and old plastic sheeting. Seems people see that and decide it is a dump even if the can is full despite the fact that the boaters (the ones most responsible for all that mess) have to drive their boat past a dumpster on the way out. I guess it is easier to throw it away there than pack it back out.


In reference to the shelters, does anyone think it might be that people have lightened up so much that even carrying a garbage bag is anathema, with loose garbage having a tendency to slop out readily?
Well I cannot talk for everyone, but as a lightweight hiker I still carry a 2 gallon zip lock and carry out more trash than I carry in on just about every hike I do. Most of the time it is old cans and aluminum foils, so I don't think it is the light hikers doing it since light hikers wouldn't normally want to carry all that to begin with.


I think this was mentioned somewhere else on site, but could a campaign of strategically placed--at a shelter perhaps-- lightweight but sturdy small bags make a difference? In my experience that would be a bad idea, just make more trash. What would be better in my opinion is a big sign that says "Next trash can is X.X miles North and X.X miles south. Please carry your trash plus anything extra here to that point please. The maintainer of this shelter is 97 and doesn't get out much anymore, expecting him to carry out your trash just ain't right."

Personally I think the "Leave No Trace" slogan is totally unachievable and is probably the wrong message. It is like any Zero Tolerance measure - something that just isn't realistic. The "Pack it in - Pack it out" Philosophy seems to be much better IMO.


We noticed quite a bit of litter from the Army Rangers playing "soldier" on Hightower Gap this past November/December. They left spent practice ordinance and MRE wrappers all over the place.

Ah, how typical of the US military: make a royal mess and leave it to the civilians to clean up later.

(I am now seeking shelter as the incoming rounds are about to be lobbed my way! :eek: )
Well they were not playing soldier, they are soldiers. You want to see someone playing soldier go to a paint ball range.

And I find this a little strange as a big part of training, especially Ranger training is litter discipline since they need to reduce any tracking signature that could be left behind. They are supposed to "sanitize" any site they ever set at or fight in to make it harder for enemy tracking patrols. If there is an issue that is something easy to fix by going to the Camp Operations cell since the presence of trash means someone is screwing up.

Amigi'sLastStand
05-31-2006, 03:06
.... yet I was baffled the first time I saw the younger one throw an apple core back in the woods. I made him go pick it up as well as the granola bar wrapper someone else threw back there. ...

An apple core?

Amigi'sLastStand
05-31-2006, 03:10
Well they were not playing soldier, they are soldiers. You want to see someone playing soldier go to a paint ball range.

And I find this a little strange as a big part of training, especially Ranger training is litter discipline since they need to reduce any tracking signature that could be left behind. They are supposed to "sanitize" any site they ever set at or fight in to make it harder for enemy tracking patrols. If there is an issue that is something easy to fix by going to the Camp Operations cell since the presence of trash means someone is screwing up.

I completely agree with Rock on this one. Are you sure they were Rangers? Sounds like REMFs out camping to me.

titanium_hiker
05-31-2006, 07:36
I remember when I was in first grade, the culture was, walk out with your snack (recess) "oh! I don't need this anymore!" *drop*

Then trash started to get really bad. We got stickers if we were picking up trash during our playtime. Then we couldn't leave the lunch room with anything that had a wrapper. Had to eat our snack for recess at the picnic tables (teacher supervision, trash cans) before heading out to play.

Strict, but it worked. Trash cleared up and measures where pealed back.

Now, when we were in highschool they completely banned people from eating outside. it was amazing the reduction of trash.

My point is that it is important to drill into kids that litter is bad. You wouldn't litter your school, so why do you leave your trash in the woods?

education is key.
in Australia, we have a component of religious education for elementary schools- however the local churches have to get someone who is qualified to do it. I wonder if hikers could have something similar?

titanium_hiker

icemanat95
05-31-2006, 09:27
There are a lot of blank shell casings, M60 belt links, etc. laying around the Hawk Mountain area. I never saw MRE wrappers or any such thing there when I hiked through, but things may have changed.

OPFOR (Opposing Forces) may be leaving sign intentionally for Ranger trainees to follow as well.

Empty shell casings can be a PITA to police up and carry. They are quite heavy and make a LOT of noise.

Tactically, once you have made contact and gotten into a firefight, you are no longer covert. Whether you leave your brass and such behind or not isn't going to make much difference. If you were fighting defensively, trying to break contact, you aren't going to waste time picking up your brass, its stays where it lays.

So depending upon the nature of the training exercise, it may be likely that expended brass, links, etc. would be left behind. Also a night engagement is going to make it impossible to do anything like a complete job of picking up, and a LOT of Ranger exercises take place at night.

CaptChaos
05-31-2006, 09:38
That "Keep America Beautiful" campaign made a lasting impact on me when I was a kid. I still have vivid memories of that public service announcement.

My feelings are the same. I had the chance to talk with the Indian Cheif, and for the life of me I can't remember his name, on a flight from Tampa, FL to Irvine, CA. As I was getting off the plane he was still sitting in first class and I stopped to introduce myself and thank him for his campaign and I told him how much it had impacted me and how I considered my surroundings now.

We talked about 10 in before the flight crew told us we had to go. The Chief was very old that I recall and he was moved out of the plane in a wheelchair. I neve got the chance to see him again and I believe that he died a short time after that meeting.

It has to be one of the most important ad campaigns that I can remember because I don't pay much attention to tv ads and with the advent of the remote, I hit the mute button whenever they come on so it must have had an impact on me for some reason.

John

LuTotten
05-31-2006, 10:14
An apple core?

He is 9, I'll be taking him on his first overnight hike this summer....If a kid asks for fruit instead of junk food you'll lug it around for a day hike.

Programbo
06-11-2006, 09:29
Then it's probably caused by younger hikers that were brought up poorly. Slobs. No manners. Selfish. Apathetic.

I agree with the above posters thoughts...I came in way late on this thread but I think the main reason there would be an increase in litter is the way society has become and the mentality/reasoning of those on the trail now as opposed to 30 years ago...True you usually found a little can/trash pile near a lot of the shelters back in the 60`s/70`s but that`s what it was an organized centrally located pile of cans and other non-burnable trash..It wasn`t just scattered about or along the trail itself except in areas that were close to roads and accessible to random dayhikers..Families from nearby state parks, etc

dreamhiker
06-11-2006, 10:50
If all the shelters where relocated further from trail heads and roads I think it would help a great deal. If shelters should be there at all. Im not a big fan of the shelter system at all and think they should all be taken out.

Buckles
06-11-2006, 11:46
That's how I tell litterers. If they drive a dirty and cluttered car I know the stuff isn't going onto the highway. An uncluttered car should be accepted by the courts as prima facie evidence that the occupants litter.

Weary

That's a big load of crap! If it was meant in humor, your post would have benefitted from the addition of some emoticons. Otherwise, it's profoundly ridiculous. Any other stereotypes you'd like to share with us?

Ridge
06-11-2006, 12:21
I know a trail maintenance guy who picks up litter at camps, etc, does a darn good job. But, he'll toss his cigarette butt in the woods while he's doing it. The good thing is he's taking out more than he's leaving.

Buckles
06-11-2006, 12:25
Well, since no one knows for sure why litter is suddenly increasing on hiking trails, perhaps we should use a bit of reasoning.

I guess all of us who either drive or walk can agree that littering is a common phenomenon in this country. Walkers see the litter. All drivers have witnessed stuff flying from cars ahead of them.

For quite a few years now the primary message against litter has been the slogans "Carry In, Carry Out" and "Leave No Trace" aimed at the walking community.

"Leave no Trace" strikes me as less effective than the older "Carry In, Carry Out." But we all have heard the messages and most of us walkers abide by them.

Now inject a very popular trail book -- a book that has sold more copies than all previous such books combined -- but also a book that makes light of litter, that treats litter a one of the fun things that happen on trails.

"A Walk in the Woods" certainly inspired previously non walkers to suddenly get out in the mountains and hills. Scores of new hikers have told White Blaze that it was Bryson that inspired them to attempt a long distance hike.

Therefore it seems plausible at least that some of those newcomers to the trails did so with little or no knowledge of "Leave No Trace," but fond memories of Brysons very funny treatment of litter.

The fact remains that litter increased after "A Walk in the Woods" becaame the all time hiking best seller. I have postulated one possible explanation. What is your theory JoeHiker?

From years of working on trails and campsites I can attest that litter breeds litter. If I can't Carry Out trash all the trash left by hikers at a campsite, I know from experience that when I come back others will have added to the pile. Most hikers seem to have no qualms about adding their tiny bits of waste when there is already a lot of trash at a shelter. Unless I can remove all the litter, I know that others will add to the pile almost without thinking.

A clean trail tends to stay clean for awhile at least. A dirty trail seems to always get dirtier.

Weary

This is not reasoning, just more of your stereotypes and generalizations. It would be too easy to stereotype your posts by saying they always include stereotypes and generalizations.

"All drivers have witnessed stuff flying from cars ahead of them." I've never seen it happen. Not once. I've lived in multiple States and countries. I travel throughout this country every week. I've never witnessed persons in front of me throwing stuff out the window. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but we all don't enjoy witnessing it with regularity like you do. You must always be there when it happens! I assume you were also personally there when you came to the earlier conclusion that it's always the newbie hikers that litter (a different post of yours).

"Scores of new hikers have told White Blaze that it was Bryson that inspired them to attempt a long distance hike." That's twenty times two, right? I don't have the exact figures, but Bryon's probably sold a couple hundred thousand books, worldwide. Very doubtful it was even near a million copies. And from that you extrapolate the new litter brigade. Must be new math.

"...I can attest that litter breeds litter. If I can't Carry Out trash all the trash left by hikers at a campsite, I know from experience that when I come back others will have added to the pile." I can only speak to the group of hikers I've hiked with....and only on the days I've hiked with them (because I wouldn't want to stereotype their behavior as always good). If we see litter, we carry it out. If it's too much to carry out, we don't just add more to the pile.

I've grown "weary" of these posts.

Ridge
06-11-2006, 12:43
As mentioned "Litter breeds Litter". What we need are more hikers who actually take out more than they bring in. But the key here is to try and make sure someone else on the trail or at a shelter sees you pick it up. You don't have to say a word, even pick up there trash in front of them, just don't say a word to them. I saw how effective this was when hiking with several buddies of mine years ago. One started out tossing wrappers, etc, one picked it up as he walked behind him. That evening with a fire built he pulled the small amount or identifiable wrappers out and tossed them in the fire, making sure the one that littered saw him. A conversation about UFO's or something was happening at the same time, but nothing was ever said about the trash. Next day, I watched, the guy actually stuck his wrappers in his pocket and not toss on the ground. The next time I ran across this guy picking up the trash I told him his tricked worked. He said it wasn't a trick, it was the way I was brought up and I do it out of habit, I wasn't even sure who actually threw the stuff down. This was one of the most effective anti-litter campaigns that actually wasn't a campaign but was just a "habit".

SGT Rock
06-11-2006, 12:55
Again, I have to agree that "litter breeds litter" based on my totally non-scientific observation. There are those of us that fight that by packing it out. To those that do - thanks!

weary
06-11-2006, 14:05
That's a big load of crap! If it was meant in humor, your post would have benefitted from the addition of some emoticons. Otherwise, it's profoundly ridiculous. Any other stereotypes you'd like to share with us?
Actually it was a test to see if buckles could recognize irony. or something like that. Somehow, humans for several millennia were able to recognize humor without the help of emoticons.

As we ponder the increasing litter on our trails, let's ponder also the growing need for crutches -- yea, even hole-poking trekking poles, emoticons, and the combination of the two.

Weart

SGT Rock
06-11-2006, 14:48
But lets keep spell checks righ Weart

nhalbrook
06-11-2006, 19:40
My feelings are the same. I had the chance to talk with the Indian Cheif, and for the life of me I can't remember his name, on a flight from Tampa, FL to Irvine, CA. As I was getting off the plane he was still sitting in first class and I stopped to introduce myself and thank him for his campaign and I told him how much it had impacted me and how I considered my surroundings now. ....

John

His name was Iron Eyes Cody and I remember him whenever littering comes to mind, too. A powerful ad campaign that should run forever.

Buckles
06-11-2006, 20:05
His name was Iron Eyes Cody and I remember him whenever littering comes to mind, too. A powerful ad campaign that should run forever.

Yes, a strong media campaign. However, if you're not aware, he was not a Native American. He was born in Kaplan, Louisiana, the child of Sicilian immigrants. He denied his true heritage, even after exposed. The consummate actor, or maybe just a bit disturbed.

Here's a link to his bio. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eyes_Cody

weary
06-11-2006, 20:58
But lets keep spell checks righ Weart
watever, you say!!!!

Tinker
06-11-2006, 22:58
I don't know if young hikers are much different from any other young person I know in the work-a-day world, but this much I can tell you: back when I was a young person in the '60s and '70s, when an older person suggested that you do something, such as pick up after yourself, you usually replied "Uh, sorry, ok" or something dumb like that, and then picked up your stuff. These days, when an older person (such as I am today) asks a young person to do anything for someone else or for a higher ethical reason, you generally (not always, but much more than in the last generation) get a blank stare or a challenging look as if to say "No one can tell me what to do". Is it just me, or does anyone else my age see this as a problem. We had the "Peace and Love" generation. What's the mantra of the current crop of young adults? Underneath, I've found many to be good people, but there's a hard veneer on the outside which did not seem to be the norm in days past. It almost seems as if doing something "Just a little bad", like purposely dropping trash on a stretch of trail so someone else will have to acknowledge your passage by picking it up is fun, or cool, or makes you somehow superior. Is it good to be bad, cool not to care? What's up?

Btw: Some folks my age are as bad, but they're usually of the "Booze and Butts" crowd, though being too wasted to be responsible is a poor excuse, too.

psberry
06-12-2006, 07:10
Reply to Tinker:
I teach young adults (as well as non-traditional adults) at a community college in Michigan. I would agree with you Tinker about their "Gimme" sort of attitude at times. Not all of course exhibit this peculiar behavior, but this current generation is the Millenium Generation and they grew up receiving awards and plagues for doing nothing...but still expect it. Their parents are of the "Helicopter" variety often and hover around their children essentially never cutting the umbilical cord, if that makes any sense. I find a plethora of debris on the trails when I first start out...usually the first couple of miles. (They eat their candy, smoke their cigarettes and naturally discard them wherever they please.) I have a hiking staff that has a super sharp metal end and if it is just a piece of paper or cigarette butt, I push it into the ground with my staff such that it can't be seen. I figure it will biodegrade faster "in" the ground than on top. If I stooped to pick up the debris everytime I saw some, I would never get anywhere, not to say anything about carrying it! Having said all this, I also think that we have some mighty nice young people who have a "yesteryear" attitude still. Their parents I suspect taught them outdoor ethics early on so that as young adults they have acquired the sense and propriety of taking care of Mother Earth. I would like to think that my two sons are in that category and I am quite sure they are, since we used to have an event upon packing up to leave a campsite with, "Look around now, pick up every piece of paper you see no matter how small!" Usually they obliged like it was a game or something. But there was always discussion about "why" we do this and what the value was! Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Egads
05-03-2009, 09:19
With all the emphasis on LNT, I've yet to see any improvement stopping the litter :(

RockDoc
05-03-2009, 13:21
We hiked Springer to Hot Springs in April, and saw some shocking litter.

The worst was all the high-tech gear that fell off folk's packs and trekking sticks mostly in the first two days; rubber pole ends, tent poles, some candy wrappers too. Every time I saw obvious backpacker's rubbish I yelled "KATZ"!

The worst was the day after Easter north of Burningtown Gap; no less than 20 sets of brightly colored plastic Easter egg shells were dropped right on the AT, or tossed to the side. The eggs, packaged in zip lock bags with candy, were apparently made available as trail magic near Winding Stair Gap. Well who should we pass right ahead of all the garbage? A Boy Scout troop of about 30 young scouts. I asked the troop leader about the easter egg shell garbage and he said "we woodint do dat". Oh, sure, well then thru-hikers did it (I doubt it). Like someone else said, young idiots don't care.

RockDoc
05-03-2009, 13:25
Regarding Maine being low-litter, I agree that the trail was pretty good.
But take a canoe around some of the lakes, like East Chairback Lake, and get out and look for a place to camp and you will be shocked at all all the beer cans and bottles everywhere that it is possible to land your canoe.

Chaco Taco
05-04-2009, 12:13
We hiked Springer to Hot Springs in April, and saw some shocking litter.

The worst was all the high-tech gear that fell off folk's packs and trekking sticks mostly in the first two days; rubber pole ends, tent poles, some candy wrappers too. Every time I saw obvious backpacker's rubbish I yelled "KATZ"!

The worst was the day after Easter north of Burningtown Gap; no less than 20 sets of brightly colored plastic Easter egg shells were dropped right on the AT, or tossed to the side. The eggs, packaged in zip lock bags with candy, were apparently made available as trail magic near Winding Stair Gap. Well who should we pass right ahead of all the garbage? A Boy Scout troop of about 30 young scouts. I asked the troop leader about the easter egg shell garbage and he said "we woodint do dat". Oh, sure, well then thru-hikers did it (I doubt it). Like someone else said, young idiots don't care.

Aint just the kids.

warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 12:15
Aint just the kids.
Truer words never spoken. . . . I've seen enough fat ****s throwing their broken hiking poles into the woods. . . . it ain't the 'kids' . . . it's the entire demographic of people - minus the ones who aren't scumbags. . . .

DAJA
05-04-2009, 12:42
We hiked Springer to Hot Springs in April, and saw some shocking litter.

The worst was all the high-tech gear that fell off folk's packs and trekking sticks mostly in the first two days; rubber pole ends, tent poles, some candy wrappers too. Every time I saw obvious backpacker's rubbish I yelled "KATZ"!

The worst was the day after Easter north of Burningtown Gap; no less than 20 sets of brightly colored plastic Easter egg shells were dropped right on the AT, or tossed to the side. The eggs, packaged in zip lock bags with candy, were apparently made available as trail magic near Winding Stair Gap. Well who should we pass right ahead of all the garbage? A Boy Scout troop of about 30 young scouts. I asked the troop leader about the easter egg shell garbage and he said "we woodint do dat". Oh, sure, well then thru-hikers did it (I doubt it). Like someone else said, young idiots don't care.

Here we go again, another grumpy old man blaming "kids these days" for the problems of the world... It must be nice living up in that ivory tower.. I don't suppose you would admit that the responsability for any faults the younger generations may have falls on the shoulders of the generations preceeding it. Where exactly do you believe "kids these days" learned these bad habits...

Kids are a reflection of their parents, so when you look at the generations coming up behind you, and find fault, remember the finger of blame is pointing directly back at you!

If I was born anytime between the 50 - 60's i'd be absolutely ashamed at what a mess my generation created of the world... And all for profit... What a joke!

warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 12:44
Here we go again, another grumpy old man blaming "kids these days" for the problems of the world... It must be nice living up in that ivory tower.. I don't suppose you would admit that the responsability for any faults the younger generations may have falls on the shoulders of the generations preceeding it. Where exactly do you believe "kids these days" learned these bad habits...

Kids are a reflection of their parents. . .
Agreed. . .

Klezmorim
05-04-2009, 13:17
Here we go again, another grumpy old man blaming "kids these days" for the problems of the world... It must be nice living up in that ivory tower.. I don't suppose you would admit that the responsability for any faults the younger generations may have falls on the shoulders of the generations preceeding [sic] it. Where exactly do you believe "kids these days" learned these bad habits...

Kids are a reflection of their parents, so when you look at the generations coming up behind you, and find fault, remember the finger of blame is pointing directly back at you!

If I was born anytime between the 50 - 60's i'd be absolutely ashamed at what a mess my generation created of the world... And all for profit... What a joke!

Um, yeah. "Here we go again," indeed. Another young idealist rags on the previous generation. If "kids are a reflection of their parents" then you should cut those of us born in the 50s and 60s some slack. Hey, you think *we* made a mess of this Earth? Blame our parents!

Oh, but wait! It was us once-young idealists born in the 50s (and 40s and 30s) who started Earth Day in April 1970. (I know because I was there!) And I believe it was us (now) old coots that started the "Leave No Trace" movement.

But cheer up! If you live long enough, one day *you* will be reviled as a "grumpy old man" (or woman) who has to take the heat for ALL the ills of the world. Of course, you can always blame you parents....

DAJA
05-04-2009, 13:33
Um, yeah. "Here we go again," indeed. Another young idealist rags on the previous generation. If "kids are a reflection of their parents" then you should cut those of us born in the 50s and 60s some slack. Hey, you think *we* made a mess of this Earth? Blame our parents!

Oh, but wait! It was us once-young idealists born in the 50s (and 40s and 30s) who started Earth Day in April 1970. (I know because I was there!) And I believe it was us (now) old coots that started the "Leave No Trace" movement.

But cheer up! If you live long enough, one day *you* will be reviled as a "grumpy old man" (or woman) who has to take the heat for ALL the ills of the world. Of course, you can always blame you parents....

Hey I recognize the problems of the world didn't start in that generation.. However previous generations kinda had their hands full with world wars and great depressions.. Not to mention, they lacked the science that made it clear that many of the directions your generation persued where destructive, you had that science and chose to ignore it, all in the name of progress..

I also agree that my generation for the most part is choosing to ignore even better science and for the life of me I can't understand why... Again all in the name of progress...But at some point you have to make a choice, opt in and participate, or opt out and find another way... I'm choosing to opt out, and trust me when I say it is a struggle..

I built my own home, morgage free, living two years in a tent to do it. I'm moving closer and closer to being completely off the grid, and will soon be making a small amount of money by selling clean energy back to my utility. I slowly developing my property into being fully organic, and am learning simpler traditional methods for perserving and curing the food I need to survive. I attempt to consume what I can within my local community and either go with out, or learn to make what I can't.

We all have choices, it's just a matter of what your willing to sacrifice to get there... Your generation sacrificed my future and those to come after me for your own self gratification... Mine seems to be following a similar path, but until some provide alternatives to the current path, how could they know any different?

Klezmorim
05-04-2009, 15:09
Hey I recognize the problems of the world didn't start in that generation.. However previous generations kinda had their hands full with world wars and great depressions.. Not to mention, they lacked the science that made it clear that many of the directions your generation persued where destructive, you had that science and chose to ignore it, all in the name of progress..
...
Your generation sacrificed my future and those to come after me for your own self gratification...

Wow, that last statement is a rather harsh generalization, don't you think?

The modern discipline of Ecology had its start in the mid-1800s. Environmentalism can be traced back centuries. We human have been fouling our nests for a looong time and many sincere people have tried to reverse this practice. We don't always get it right. Early in the last century, the automobile was touted as a solution to the growing horse "pollution" problem that was piling up in large urban areas. In the 1950s, atomic energy was seen as a clean, reliable and limitless.

I applaud your efforts and hope you will continue them. Keep in mind that it's not always a matter of 'lacking the science.' My generation didn't invent "corporate greed." It was already here and waiting for us. "Clean and Green" solutions will only be implemented if there's an economic (or legislated) incentive. If the "science" is too pricey, the environment be damned.

You're right, we all can make individual choices. Next time on the trail, instead of bemoaning "Lord, what pigs these young hikers be!", I'll pick up their trash and carry it out. Before it was called "Leave No Trace," us over-fed, not-yet-dead Boomers chanted "Pack it in - Pack it out."

Rockhound
05-04-2009, 16:41
Imagine if all the people who complained about litter started packing some out. More than just there own I mean. Yes yes I know it isn't fair, not my responsibility, wah wah wah...... but at least it helps the problem.

Chaco Taco
05-04-2009, 16:58
Its Everyone!!!!!

Nearly Normal
05-04-2009, 17:20
Wasn't that long ago there wasn't much trash to throw away. Then we moved into the returnable era then the throw away era where recycling doesn't really work. Folks are too lazy.
We were better off when you could throw a beer can in the ditch and in 5 years it was gone.

Rockhound
05-04-2009, 22:15
Wasn't that long ago there wasn't much trash to throw away. Then we moved into the returnable era then the throw away era where recycling doesn't really work. Folks are too lazy.
We were better off when you could throw a beer can in the ditch and in 5 years it was gone.
I think aluminum may take just a wee bit longer than 5 years to break down there normal.

DAJA
05-04-2009, 22:21
Wasn't that long ago there wasn't much trash to throw away. Then we moved into the returnable era then the throw away era where recycling doesn't really work. Folks are too lazy.
We were better off when you could throw a beer can in the ditch and in 5 years it was gone.

How hard is it to hold onto your trash until you reach a trash can? You carried it full, why can't you carry it empty?

I don't know, it just seems so simple!

George
05-04-2009, 22:50
for sure a problem of no place to put the garbage even in shenendoah with all the road crossings I had to search out the dumpster for lack of cans. As parks and states want to control costs they cut services like garbage to avoid cutting staff. Many picnic areas now ask you to take your garbage home-not so easy on a long hike. With pay per bag the parks get a lot of home garbage so just stop the service.

Tinker
05-04-2009, 22:55
I think aluminum may take just a wee bit longer than 5 years to break down there normal.

I remember the days before pull tabs, when beer cans were made out of steel (or some ferritic alloy). Probably broke down (rusted) faster than aluminum oxidizes.

Klezmorim
05-04-2009, 23:26
I remember the days before pull tabs, when beer cans were made out of steel (or some ferritic alloy). Probably broke down (rusted) faster than aluminum oxidizes.

Yeah, I remember the "good ol' days" of steel beer cans that required a *can opener* in order to access their golden liquid treasure. Mmmmm....

Over the decades I've read varying claims of how long it takes for aluminum cans to break down in the environment. Estimates range from 100 - 400 years. Quite awhile on either end of that spectrum. Of course, when they *do* dissolve, they release aluminum into the ecosystem. High systemic aluminum levels have been tied to Alzheimer's Disease, but I digress....

Please pack it out; not just yours (goes without saying!), but someone else's garbage, as well. I always carry extra Baggies and Hefty-bags for this. Imagine if *every* hiker picked up a couple pieces of trash how much nicer the Trail would look! And with the number of folks out there, each of us wouldn't have to pick up a lot.

DAJA
05-05-2009, 08:37
In my college years I had a summer gig working for the St. Croix River Waterway Commission. The St. Croix is an international boundary river dividing Maine and New Brunswick and a very historic river... Anyway, I had a fantastic job canoeing that river everyday of the summer stopping at the various campsites on both sides of the Border to collect garbage and maintain the sites..

I've found everything from burnt tents in fire pits, loads and loads of beer cans, broken coolers jammed into the privy's, skidder tire tubes hanging up in the trees, and the usual burnt blobs of tinfoil in the fire pit. For the most part people seemed to do a reasonable job of cleaning up their site before moving on down river..

However, the final summer working that job, a hiking trail was unofficially established following the river downstream on the Canadian side. And surprisingly, the amount of garbage left at the campsites increased dramatically. One practice that seemed to become very common was finding pits dug 20 - 50' into the woods where garbage had been buried and then unearthed by the local critters scattering a stinky mess in all directions... I'd never experienced this practice until hikers arrived in the area... Is this a common practice in the hiking community? It was certainly new to me, and I’ve hiked and canoed for years...

On another occasion I pulled into a campsite to do a cleanup and there were 4 hikers from NH stopped for lunch... The site had little to no garbage so I went and put a few scoops of lime in the privy, and when I returned to my canoe, the hikers where gone and I had 4 small bags of garbage laying in my canoe.. So much for pack it in - pack it out... Sure my job was to pick up garbage that others leave behind, but I was quite peeved over that incident... I wasn't a moving garbage can meant to lighten the load of lazy hikers..

The ATV community also often used the hiking trail, and I gotta say, they by far where cleaner than hikers and paddlers.. The only evidence they ever left behind where tracks and HUGE cinder piles that expanded outside the fire rings.

All in all it was a fantastic summer job... Getting paid to paddle everyday and sleep outdoors 5 nights a week! I learned a valuable lesson those summers... Humans are the filthiest of species!

Nearly Normal
05-05-2009, 18:22
In my college years I had a summer gig working for the St. Croix River Waterway Commission. The St. Croix is an international boundary river dividing Maine and New Brunswick and a very historic river... Anyway, I had a fantastic job canoeing that river everyday of the summer stopping at the various campsites on both sides of the Border to collect garbage and maintain the sites..

I've found everything from burnt tents in fire pits, loads and loads of beer cans, broken coolers jammed into the privy's, skidder tire tubes hanging up in the trees, and the usual burnt blobs of tinfoil in the fire pit. For the most part people seemed to do a reasonable job of cleaning up their site before moving on down river..

However, the final summer working that job, a hiking trail was unofficially established following the river downstream on the Canadian side. And surprisingly, the amount of garbage left at the campsites increased dramatically. One practice that seemed to become very common was finding pits dug 20 - 50' into the woods where garbage had been buried and then unearthed by the local critters scattering a stinky mess in all directions... I'd never experienced this practice until hikers arrived in the area... Is this a common practice in the hiking community? It was certainly new to me, and I’ve hiked and canoed for years...

On another occasion I pulled into a campsite to do a cleanup and there were 4 hikers from NH stopped for lunch... The site had little to no garbage so I went and put a few scoops of lime in the privy, and when I returned to my canoe, the hikers where gone and I had 4 small bags of garbage laying in my canoe.. So much for pack it in - pack it out... Sure my job was to pick up garbage that others leave behind, but I was quite peeved over that incident... I wasn't a moving garbage can meant to lighten the load of lazy hikers..

The ATV community also often used the hiking trail, and I gotta say, they by far where cleaner than hikers and paddlers.. The only evidence they ever left behind where tracks and HUGE cinder piles that expanded outside the fire rings.

All in all it was a fantastic summer job... Getting paid to paddle everyday and sleep outdoors 5 nights a week! I learned a valuable lesson those summers... Humans are the filthiest of species!

My post did not condone littering, it condems the materials we use in packaging.
Those beer cans and coolers you write about were proably made from aluminum and plastic. Even after you desposed of them properly they'll take years to break down leaving something other than benign behind.
In all your trash collecting did you find an OLD steel, cork insulated ice chest?

DAJA
05-05-2009, 18:38
Even after you desposed of them properly they'll take years to break down leaving something other than benign behind.
In all your trash collecting did you find an OLD steel, cork insulated ice chest?

No the kid that did the job in the years before my likely packed out all the old stuff... I agree, we overpackage and use terrible materials for packaging...

mweinstone
05-05-2009, 19:32
matthewski
trasher
tracker of litterbugs and roadents
destroyer of wills to trash

Homer&Marje
05-05-2009, 19:50
Here we go again, another grumpy old man blaming "kids these days" for the problems of the world... It must be nice living up in that ivory tower.. I don't suppose you would admit that the responsability for any faults the younger generations may have falls on the shoulders of the generations preceeding it. Where exactly do you believe "kids these days" learned these bad habits...

Kids are a reflection of their parents, so when you look at the generations coming up behind you, and find fault, remember the finger of blame is pointing directly back at you!

If I was born anytime between the 50 - 60's i'd be absolutely ashamed at what a mess my generation created of the world... And all for profit... What a joke!

Can I move in? Can anyone say...dream house.....say it with me now:D Love it. Just built a huge garden and a compost box at my new place....close as I can get right now

DAJA
05-05-2009, 21:04
Can I move in? Can anyone say...dream house.....say it with me now:D Love it. Just built a huge garden and a compost box at my new place....close as I can get right now

Sounds like your well on your way... Once the self sufficency bug bites, there's no turning back!

Here's looking forward to Fall Harvest!

Kanati
05-06-2009, 19:06
Here we go again, another grumpy old man blaming "kids these days" for the problems of the world... It must be nice living up in that ivory tower.. I don't suppose you would admit that the responsability for any faults the younger generations may have falls on the shoulders of the generations preceeding it. Where exactly do you believe "kids these days" learned these bad habits...

Kids are a reflection of their parents, so when you look at the generations coming up behind you, and find fault, remember the finger of blame is pointing directly back at you!

If I was born anytime between the 50 - 60's i'd be absolutely ashamed at what a mess my generation created of the world... And all for profit... What a joke!


Several years ago, when my neighbors had teenage kids just old enough to drive legally, I was going up our street one day and saw about 6 bags of household garbage thrown into the woods a few feet out of the road. So I stopped and went thru it to see if there was some ID that would help me nail the culprit. Low and behold, it was from my neighbors house a couple of hundred yards from ours! I was astounded because this is a nice neighborhood with nice educated residents. The parents were both teachers and I KNOW they didn't do it but if it wasn't them, I also KNEW who in that house it was, so I saw him later that day and after a sound scolding and brief education about the ills of litering, I told him he had one hour to pick it all up or I would tell his Dad and Mom. And in less than an hour it was gone. To this day, we are friends. He is now 35.

Homer&Marje
05-06-2009, 20:14
Sounds like your well on your way... Once the self sufficency bug bites, there's no turning back!

Here's looking forward to Fall Harvest!

Definitely got the fever for it. Everyone thinks it's so difficult and impossible. What's difficult and impossible is going to the same friggin jobs everyday and having to abide to the wishes of others....oddly enough the career path I chose is a waiter....but I fully intend to retire on equity not on salary. At an average of $100 bucks a person for dinner though...we do ok:D

Chaco Taco
05-07-2009, 22:41
Here we go again, another grumpy old man blaming "kids these days" for the problems of the world... It must be nice living up in that ivory tower.. I don't suppose you would admit that the responsability for any faults the younger generations may have falls on the shoulders of the generations preceeding it. Where exactly do you believe "kids these days" learned these bad habits...

Kids are a reflection of their parents, so when you look at the generations coming up behind you, and find fault, remember the finger of blame is pointing directly back at you!

If I was born anytime between the 50 - 60's i'd be absolutely ashamed at what a mess my generation created of the world... And all for profit... What a joke!

It is also reassuring to know that with the whole "green movement" more and more of younger folks are learning the power of activism. I see more and more younger folks out picking up trash, esp around here.

Lemni Skate
05-09-2009, 06:11
Don't get too excited about the green movement. I teach at a high school and I have seen the same kids that go around and pick up the recycling throw candy bar wrappers down in the courtyard. Right next to a trash can. I have lunch duty outside at my school and spend the entire time EVERY DAY picking up trash.

Almost every one of these kids would tell you they're an enviromentalist. In our mock election at the school they went about 75% for Obama. I sponsor a backpacking club at the school and before I ever took them to a trail we talked about "Leave no Trace." They thought I was crazy.

These kids' parents don't make them make up their beds. They're not going to clean up a campsite.

I don't take any students on overnight trips, but no one that stays with me is going to leave a scrap.

I will say this for "my" section of trail...SNP and surrounding areas. The PATC maintainers keep it cleaned up. I rarely see much trash in this area (and of course when I do, it goes in my pack).

Hooch
05-09-2009, 06:28
Don't get too excited about the green movement. I teach at a high school and I have seen the same kids that go around and pick up the recycling throw candy bar wrappers down in the courtyard. Right next to a trash can. I have lunch duty outside at my school and spend the entire time EVERY DAY picking up trash........Ok, I gotta ask. If you're standing there watching them throw trash on the ground, why are you the one picking it up? I know the idea may sound nuts, but you're the adult in this situation and person in a position of authority, why aren't they told to pick up their trash or face the consequences for it?

mudhead
05-09-2009, 06:47
Ok, I gotta ask. If you're standing there watching them throw trash on the ground, why are you the one picking it up? I know the idea may sound nuts, but you're the adult in this situation and person in a position of authority, why aren't they told to pick up their trash or face the consequences for it?

Nominated for post of the month.:sun

neighbor dave
05-09-2009, 06:51
:-? studies indicate ultralite hikers are to blame. trash is "too heavy"! ;)

hoz
05-09-2009, 08:00
Iron Eyes Cody in his greatest role...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R-FZsysQNw&feature=related

Homer&Marje
05-09-2009, 08:07
Ok, I gotta ask. If you're standing there watching them throw trash on the ground, why are you the one picking it up? I know the idea may sound nuts, but you're the adult in this situation and person in a position of authority, why aren't they told to pick up their trash or face the consequences for it?

I....I....Agree. I know we hate when that happens.

Kids behavior is directly a result of the influencing powers on them combined with knowledge and experience.

I know that and don't even have kids. But my 13 year old brother in law came on his first few backpacking trips with us this summer and he knows LNT. He may have his Ipod stuck to his head the entire day...but he will make sure trash is packed out...even if it's not his.

Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 08:19
:-? studies indicate ultralite hikers are to blame. trash is "too heavy"! ;)

You know that aint true. I pick up others trash at shelters and clean out firepits and Im an ULer. Think before you speak.:rolleyes: Its everyone!

Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 08:21
Ok, I gotta ask. If you're standing there watching them throw trash on the ground, why are you the one picking it up? I know the idea may sound nuts, but you're the adult in this situation and person in a position of authority, why aren't they told to pick up their trash or face the consequences for it?

Yea you gotta call out ANYONE you see littering or burning trash. I get on my friends that I hike with about it and tell them, "you better not be thinking about throwing that into the fire."

neighbor dave
05-09-2009, 13:38
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=835033&postcount=111


:-? but it's true damn ultraliters always litterin', stuff's too heavy to carry

Gaiter
05-09-2009, 13:51
It is also reassuring to know that with the whole "green movement" more and more of younger folks are learning the power of activism. I see more and more younger folks out picking up trash, esp around here.


Don't get too excited about the green movement. I teach at a high school and I have seen the same kids that go around and pick up the recycling throw candy bar wrappers down in the courtyard. Right next to a trash can. I have lunch duty outside at my school and spend the entire time EVERY DAY picking up trash.


I don't think high schoolers would be an example for anything other than being stupid highschoolers..... i think chaco was referring more to those who are college age or in their 20's, and 30's, they are the ones becoming the most environmentally conscience, we don't just buy things because someone put it on a shelf, instead of buying whatever the hell we want w/ our money, we are buying the products w/ smallest environmental impact...

DAJA
05-09-2009, 14:08
I don't think high schoolers would be an example for anything other than being stupid highschoolers..... i think chaco was referring more to those who are college age or in their 20's, and 30's, they are the ones becoming the most environmentally conscience, we don't just buy things because someone put it on a shelf, instead of buying whatever the hell we want w/ our money, we are buying the products w/ smallest environmental impact...

Well said! There is a great example of earlier generations believing if they simply have the money, they can consume whatever they wish regardless of the impacts it may have to the wider world, in this thread:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=49744&highlight=neo+air

Rockhound
05-09-2009, 16:25
Yea you gotta call out ANYONE you see littering or burning trash. I get on my friends that I hike with about it and tell them, "you better not be thinking about throwing that into the fire."
I gotta call ya on the burning trash thing. Some trash yes, (metal, plastic etc... but some can be burned and I've even seen signs at some shelters requesting that you do just that. (Watauga lake shelter for instance) I realize that this may be a deeply divided issue with no absolute answers so rather than start a side argument on this issue I think you should just apologize and admit you are wrong you hippie freak.:D

Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 18:41
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=835033&postcount=111


:-? but it's true damn ultraliters always litterin', stuff's too heavy to carry
Most ridiculous statement I have ever heard

JAK
05-09-2009, 19:00
I burn what little trash I have, but pick out and carry out what doesn't burn.
The main think I'm working on these days is reducing junk at point of purchase.

Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 19:06
I burn what little trash I have, but pick out and carry out what doesn't burn.
The main think I'm working on these days is reducing junk at point of purchase.

What kind of trash??

JAK
05-09-2009, 19:35
Mostly stuff that food comes in. I try and buy in quanties to resuce packaging as much as possible, but there is still some. Some is plastic. Some is a mix of paper and plastic. Sometimes there is some aluminum foil mixed in. I usually bring my Tim Hortons coffee cup also from the drive in, which is a sort of waxy paper, and use that for kinding after I am done with it as a cup. I am buying less and less of that stuff though. Even my tea I buy loose now, in a 1/2 pound or 1 pound paper bag. There is still a thin plastic bag inside though. My hiking food is all bought in 1/2 pound or 1 pound or even 1kg sizes, and on shorter trips I just bring less variety. I don't buy baggies. I get enough bags as packaging. Even in bulk food stores you have to use these thin plastic bags, so I save those for hikes, and reuse them, but if one gets unusable I burn it. For awhile I bouth lemonaide singles, and burned those, but I've stopped because they are overpackaged.

Can you buy koolaid without sugar added in larger than 6g pouches?

JAK
05-09-2009, 19:39
I think I might bring an orange a day for by vitamin C. No packaging issues there, just transportation and such. Are the peels edible, or too much pesticides?

Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 19:51
Mostly stuff that food comes in. I try and buy in quanties to resuce packaging as much as possible, but there is still some. Some is plastic. Some is a mix of paper and plastic. Sometimes there is some aluminum foil mixed in. I usually bring my Tim Hortons coffee cup also from the drive in, which is a sort of waxy paper, and use that for kinding after I am done with it as a cup. I am buying less and less of that stuff though. Even my tea I buy loose now, in a 1/2 pound or 1 pound paper bag. There is still a thin plastic bag inside though. My hiking food is all bought in 1/2 pound or 1 pound or even 1kg sizes, and on shorter trips I just bring less variety. I don't buy baggies. I get enough bags as packaging. Even in bulk food stores you have to use these thin plastic bags, so I save those for hikes, and reuse them, but if one gets unusable I burn it. For awhile I bouth lemonaide singles, and burned those, but I've stopped because they are overpackaged.

Can you buy koolaid without sugar added in larger than 6g pouches?
You really shouldnt burn anything with plastic or foil or that has food particles left in it. 1. It is bad for the environment 2. If it has food particles, it attracts bears. The paper stuff is fine to burn.

JAK
05-09-2009, 19:59
What's wrong with burning it and packing out the residue?
How is that worse than packing it all out and trashing it?
What am I missing? Seriously, I would like to do the right thing.

Is landfill really that much better than burning it? I think the most important thing is not to buy stuff with all that plastic. I've been cutting down alot. Point of purchase.

Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 19:59
This is from the LNT website

DISPOSE OF WASTE PROPERLY
Pack it in, pack it out. Inspect your campsite and rest areas for trash or spilled foods. Pack out all trash, leftover food, and litter.

Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 20:08
What's wrong with burning it and packing out the residue?
How is that worse than packing it all out and trashing it?
What am I missing? Seriously, I would like to do the right thing.

Is landfill really that much better than burning it? I think the most important thing is not to buy stuff with all that plastic. I've been cutting down alot. Point of purchase.

The material in foil packs is very bad for the environment and leaves a trace of food residue in fire pits no matter how much you wash it off. Attracts wildlife. Also, technically, firepits are supposed to be scattered after using them and the ashes are cool. Another reason shelters are bad, is firepits. The burning of trash, plastic and such is leaving a trace. Check out the LNT website for info.
Im not trying to be a hard a** but burning trash is really bad. So many people do it now or just leave their trash for others to burn. I understand your point about landfills but burning trash is bad no matter what or where you are.

JAK
05-09-2009, 20:14
I don't get the bear thing either. Very little food left on what little trash I burn. When I burn it it is with birchbark and spruce sticks in my hobo stove or kelly kettle. If there is any residue left, I pack it. I do keep my food smells down for bears, out of courtesy more than fear, but I really don't think my trash has any food smells. Maybe those tuna pouches. I've sort of stopped buying those. Too much trash. I'm a homemade jerky guy now. I really think the answer is to buy less trash at the point of purchase. Burning it isn't so much a problem if there is so very little, and no worse than sending it to the landfill. I burn a small plastic bag now and then when its beyond re-use its a little less birchbark to burn, not that that matters really, as I use very little of that also. Anyhow, moot point, as I am trying to get away from plastics completely. The real answer is not to buy it. Don't buy stuff that is overpackaged, especially for hiking. What you do buy, re-use it as much as you can. Then recycle it if it is recyclable. After all that, you might as well burn it as landfill it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think point of purchase is the main issue, not burn vs pack it out.

JAK
05-09-2009, 20:17
This is from the LNT website

DISPOSE OF WASTE PROPERLY
Pack it in, pack it out. Inspect your campsite and rest areas for trash or spilled foods. Pack out all trash, leftover food, and litter.
LNT website doesn't put enough emphasis on sustainability. It doesn't put enough emphasis on not buying junk in the first place. LNT is very important in some sensitive areas, but where I hike sustainability is my main concern, not LNT. Generally speaking, LNT is misquided. Sustainability is where its at.

JAK
05-09-2009, 20:18
LNT says its ok to buy a boatload of trash, as long as you pack it all out.

That is bull****.

Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 20:23
I agree with you about point of purchase and reusing the packaging you have as much as you can. If you are burning in your own stove that is fine, its just the firepits. If you are burning trash with food particles, chances are someone else is too and another and another.....I understand your point with landfills but like you said, the reduction of packaging is where its at. I commend you on your philosophy. It is much better than about %95 of the hiking population. :D

Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 20:24
LNT says its ok to buy a boatload of trash, as long as you pack it all out.

That is bull****.

Can you show me where it says that? I would like to see that so I can write to them.

Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 20:30
I don't get the bear thing either. Very little food left on what little trash I burn. When I burn it it is with birchbark and spruce sticks in my hobo stove or kelly kettle. If there is any residue left, I pack it. I do keep my food smells down for bears, out of courtesy more than fear, but I really don't think my trash has any food smells. Maybe those tuna pouches. I've sort of stopped buying those. Too much trash. I'm a homemade jerky guy now. I really think the answer is to buy less trash at the point of purchase. Burning it isn't so much a problem if there is so very little, and no worse than sending it to the landfill. I burn a small plastic bag now and then when its beyond re-use its a little less birchbark to burn, not that that matters really, as I use very little of that also. Anyhow, moot point, as I am trying to get away from plastics completely. The real answer is not to buy it. Don't buy stuff that is overpackaged, especially for hiking. What you do buy, re-use it as much as you can. Then recycle it if it is recyclable. After all that, you might as well burn it as landfill it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think point of purchase is the main issue, not burn vs pack it out.

Im curious about your food now:D What are you using to package your food like your jerky. Im trying to reduce the level of packaging I pack and really like your ideas.

JAK
05-09-2009, 20:30
I'm just saying in general they put too much emphasis on protecting the local environment and not the general environment. Don't you agree? That's really important in high traffic areas and sensitive environments, but they should talk more about protecting the environment in general, not just LNT.

Can you show me where they tell you do buy less stuff, or mention sustainability?

They have good ideas, but they are misguided, or at least outdated.
They need to update themselves and start thinking and talking about sustainability.

In Canada, boy scouts etc use the term 'low impact' rather than LNT.
If you think about it, and do it right, 'low impact' is better for the environment.

'low impact', done right, means buy less **** to start with

Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 20:32
I'm just saying in general they put too much emphasis on protecting the local environment and not the general environment. Don't you agree? That's really important in high traffic areas and sensitive environments, but they should talk more about protecting the environment in general, not just LNT.

Can you show me where they tell you do buy less stuff, or mention sustainability?

They have good ideas, but they are misguided, or at least outdated.
They need to update themselves and start thinking and talking about sustainability.

In Canada, boy scouts etc use the term 'low impact' rather than LNT.
If you think about it, and do it right, 'low impact' is better for the environment.

'low impact', done right, means buy less **** to start with

Really great point JAK. I like where your head is at with this. I agree LNT is outdated and somewhat misguided and I try to take alot of what they try to promote and put in what i think is the right thing. You have opened my eyes to some things I need to look at a little more, thanks.:-?:D

JAK
05-09-2009, 20:40
Im curious about your food now:D What are you using to package your food like your jerky. Im trying to reduce the level of packaging I pack and really like your ideas.So far I've been using plastic bags left over from trips to bulk food store etc. If I manage to reduce or eliminate those enough I might use paper or birchbark or leather. Thinking about doing away with plastic clothing also. I've stopped buying plastic clothing and hiking gear, but what I have will probably last 10 years, longer if I start dabbling with other stuff. I'm not totally against all plastic clothing and gear. I'm mostly against buying new stuff to try out when I already have something. I still like to try new ideas out, but i'm focusing on non-plastic ideas for now. Still thinking about re-using plastic though, like I'm trying to get a plastic mayo lid onto the top of a fosters beer can. JB Weld Epoxy maybe? I know, plastic. I'm mostly just trying to buy less. I'm going to try and use stuff like birchbark, and skins maybe.

JAK
05-09-2009, 20:47
Really great point JAK. I like where your head is at with this. I agree LNT is outdated and somewhat misguided and I try to take alot of what they try to promote and put in what i think is the right thing. You have opened my eyes to some things I need to look at a little more, thanks.:-?:DThanks Chaco. I'll be more careful when I do burn stuff, and also when I buy stuff. Try better at practicing what I preach. Hiking trips are a good time to do that.

JAK
05-09-2009, 20:50
I've also stopped buying beverages just to try out a new can or bottle. lol
Most of those drinks are crap anyway. Better to make your own lemonaide I think.
Same with beer and mead. :)

Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 21:35
I've also stopped buying beverages just to try out a new can or bottle. lol
Most of those drinks are crap anyway. Better to make your own lemonaide I think.
Same with beer and mead. :)

Good conversation JAK!!! Thanks for the info. Ill share my ideas if and when I come up with some and please keep your ideas coming.:clap

SunnyWalker
05-09-2009, 22:22
I think much of our problems are cultural. We are a disposible society. How many "things" of one kind does one have? OK, lets look at backpacking. How many stoves do we need? How many backpacks do we really need? How many sleeping bags, matts, etc., etc.? then how many cars do we need? How about clothes? How many shirts can you wear? Is your closet filled? On the trail it boils down to what you have been taught, shown, discipline, and caring about others (who come behind you). Selfishness has no hold on the present, its always been there. If I pack it in, I pack it out. Personal decision. Burn trash? When I can, but I was shown and taught to pick up the remains and "pack it out". Burn foil pkgs? Never. But that was what I was taught. I always liked the motto for the state of Oregon. It was: "Keep Oregon Green". Maybe we can post that along the AT? "Keep the AT Green"? On the other hand, I guess we don't want a bunch of signs along the AT. Maybe in the lit? :-)

Wise Old Owl
05-09-2009, 23:00
Since 1998 to today the message is the same we all need to do more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4ozVMxzNAA

Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 23:01
I think much of our problems are cultural. We are a disposible society. How many "things" of one kind does one have? OK, lets look at backpacking. How many stoves do we need? How many backpacks do we really need? How many sleeping bags, matts, etc., etc.? then how many cars do we need? How about clothes? How many shirts can you wear? Is your closet filled? On the trail it boils down to what you have been taught, shown, discipline, and caring about others (who come behind you). Selfishness has no hold on the present, its always been there. If I pack it in, I pack it out. Personal decision. Burn trash? When I can, but I was shown and taught to pick up the remains and "pack it out". Burn foil pkgs? Never. But that was what I was taught. I always liked the motto for the state of Oregon. It was: "Keep Oregon Green". Maybe we can post that along the AT? "Keep the AT Green"? On the other hand, I guess we don't want a bunch of signs along the AT. Maybe in the lit? :-)

Good post SW:-?:D

Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 23:04
Since 1998 to today the message is the same we all need to do more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4ozVMxzNAA

What is his name?? I remember meeting him when i was a kid at Tweetsie Railroad

Wise Old Owl
05-09-2009, 23:37
What is his name?? I remember meeting him when i was a kid at Tweetsie Railroad


The American Ad Council ran the Crying Indian ad on Earth Day in 1971. It is one of the most successful ad campaigns in advertising history. The slogan was “People Start Pollution, People Can Stop It” If you remember this commercial then I can safely guess that you are over forty years of age.
www.thewall.net/view/547/psa-native-american-1970s/ (http://www.thewall.net/view/547/psa-native-american-1970s/) “People Start Pollution, People Can Stop It,” a public service announcement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_service_announcement) featuring the now iconic "Crying Indian," Iron Eyes Cody (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eyes_Cody). Interestingly, Cody was not actually of Native American ancestry, but Italian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eyes_Cody (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eyes_Cody)

His last film was Ernest goes to Camp!

Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 23:41
Yes Iron Eyes Cody. He was a big hit when I was a kid.

neighbor dave
05-10-2009, 12:24
What kind of trash??

:-? old tires and used plastic oil cans. too heavy!

Lemni Skate
05-10-2009, 13:02
Just to defend myself here...Obviously, if I see a student litter I ask them to pick it up and dispose of it properly (though most of the public probably thinks the teachers stand around and let the kids do anything). Amazingly, it is often next to a trash can. When I spend my lunch duty picking up trash, it is not trash I saw somebody throw down. It's all over the grounds of the school.

I hope that lots of kids (and adults) see me pick up this trash and decide it's not a terrible thing to pick up some one else's mess.

Hooch
05-10-2009, 13:16
Just to defend myself here...Obviously, if I see a student litter I ask them to pick it up and dispose of it properly (though most of the public probably thinks the teachers stand around and let the kids do anything). Amazingly, it is often next to a trash can. When I spend my lunch duty picking up trash, it is not trash I saw somebody throw down. It's all over the grounds of the school.

I hope that lots of kids (and adults) see me pick up this trash and decide it's not a terrible thing to pick up some one else's mess.
Very well, carry on. :D

saimyoji
05-10-2009, 16:31
Just to defend myself here...Obviously, if I see a student litter I ask them to pick it up and dispose of it properly (though most of the public probably thinks the teachers stand around and let the kids do anything). Amazingly, it is often next to a trash can. When I spend my lunch duty picking up trash, it is not trash I saw somebody throw down. It's all over the grounds of the school.

I hope that lots of kids (and adults) see me pick up this trash and decide it's not a terrible thing to pick up some one else's mess.


try this: make it a teachable moment: for each piece of trash they drop, make 'em pick up 20.