View Full Version : Group of 104 on trail in NC
splash1986
10-20-2019, 19:03
Hi Friends,
This is my first post in years, but I am a long time reader of the site. I wanted to share an experience I had this weekend while doing a three day hike and hear fellow hikers take on the situation. I started my hike at Standing Indian Campground, and my plan was to camp on Standing Indian Mountain to enjoy the sunset on Friday night. All was great at first, I passed through Standing Indian Shelter, signed the register, then proceeded up to the mountain and set up camp fairly early, around 4pm or so and settled in to enjoy the view.
Around 6 pm, a couple of guys show up, and tell me that they are ahead of a large group they are bringing in to stay on the mountain for the night. No worries, I think, there seems to be plenty of room, and after sunset I will be passed out in my tent anyway. I’ll note that at this point I’m already set up for the night, with my tent up and my sleeping pad and bag unrolled. I asked the guys how many they had in the group. The answer was 104. That’s not an exaggeration. They were bringing literally 104 people up the mountain. If you have been to Standing Indian, you know that there is not enough room for that many people.
So long story short, this group comes up and completely overruns the site and entire mountainside. They could have cared less about me already being there. At this point, I think that like most hikers, they will settle down and get some rest. No such luck. These guys up at all hours, including the whole group getting up at 2AM for a prayer session. I asked them completely to keep voices and noise down, however in a group that large no one was listening. So, as you can imagine, not much sleep was had.
Now, I suppose in hind sight, if I had a do over, I would have just picked up and moved on when the big group arrived, however I was where I wanted to be for the night, and hell, I was there first. So I didn’t feel especially inclined to move. I packed up early, hiked while watching the sunrise, and enjoyed my nice rainy hike on Saturday.
So, I’ll ask the hiking community, has anyone had a similar experience? If so, how did you handle it? I’m all for free use of the trail, however I don’t believe the AT is the place to bring a group of 104. The facilities/ sites are just not equipped to handle it. I’ll note also that I picked up and packed out at least 10 items/ trash on the trail that likely came from this group. On my way out also. Sorry for the long post, but I am curious to hear your thoughts. And by the way, the sunset at Standing Indian was totally worth it. :)
I think it was an outrageous and inexcusable violation of all good hiker and trail norms. I can't say that there was any better action than what you did. Actually, I think you showed tremendous restraint.
If at any point this group passed through a wilderness area, they likely violated USFS regulations and could have been ticketed. However, I don't know how you could have reached a ranger at that time. Short of gathering information on the group members to pass on to officials, which could have placed you at risk, I think you did all that was possible.
Slo-go'en
10-20-2019, 19:23
Nothing you could do about the situation at the time. Moving on would have been the best plan. I would have dressed the leader up and down and loudly before I left though.
splash1986
10-20-2019, 19:34
I do have the groups information.... it was call 4musa. Apparently they take folks out for wilderness spiritual experiences or something. I did express my displeasure to who I think was the leader the next morning, and they did apologize and offer me food, water, etc.
I plan on contacting the local Nantahala Ranger Station when they open tomorrow.
Slo-go'en
10-20-2019, 19:47
I got to wonder how much of a spirital wilderness expereince camping with 104 other people and trashing the top of a mountain is? And is this a racket I can cash in on too?
Definately report them, but I suspect they already know about them. Can't be the first time they did this.
45780
it doesn’t appear to have been a secret meeting.
AllDownhillFromHere
10-20-2019, 19:50
I got to wonder how much of a spirital wilderness expereince camping with 104 other people and trashing the top of a mountain is? And is this a racket I can cash in on too?
Definately report them, but I suspect they already know about them. Can't be the first time they did this.
They don't care. And what law have they broken?
protip: there are ******** out there
splash1986
10-20-2019, 19:52
They weren’t secret at all, were very open about who they were and what they were doing.
Time Zone
10-20-2019, 20:11
They don't care. And what law have they broken?
IDK, but you would think they would care about the Golden Rule. As I recall, they're supposed to care about it.
While hikeing in Maryland in early June and in lower PA in early
Sept. we came across groups of your folks, high school groups in a type of "upward bound" situation and
freshmen groups in freshman orientation from a local university in a bonding experience I take it.
I suppose the size as bout 10-15 including leaders. At one shelter they found about any available space there.
Mostly they slept under low tarps with maybe 5-10 under one tarp.
In all these cases they were well led and well behaved and respectful of others in the vicinity.
They pretty much stayed to themselves though their leaders would describe their experiences.
Lone Wolf
10-20-2019, 20:35
no biggie. it's the AT today as we know. don't like it, don't stay at shelters or established campsites
TallahasseeTom
10-20-2019, 21:28
I think it was an outrageous and inexcusable violation of all good hiker and trail norms. I can't say that there was any better action than what you did. Actually, I think you showed tremendous restraint.
If at any point this group passed through a wilderness area, they likely violated USFS regulations and could have been ticketed. However, I don't know how you could have reached a ranger at that time. Short of gathering information on the group members to pass on to officials, which could have placed you at risk, I think you did all that was possible.
I encountered a similar experience on Tray Mountain about 3 years ago. If I remember correctly this group of about 35 "marching" about 30 inches apart were from a Saturday Adventist training facility somewhere in the area and were having a bonding experience before departing into the world for missionary work. This was extremely disarming. No way can back country sites absorb such a heavy impact. Just the sanitary issues are overwhelming. But it seems that the entire southern AT, especially during the bubble season, is being overwhelmed by far too much traffic. How long before health officials will have to begin limiting the number of hikers on the trail one time?
I was at Derrick Knob Shelter in the Smokies in early September. When I when to use the potty on the non-water side of the mountain, I encountered what looked like more than a hundred "flowers" of unburied toilet paper. Now if the paper was unburied, then surely what goes with it was also not buried. This seems to be an fast expanding problem at all shelters without privies. Now at some shelterers the Poop side too the mountain is not clearly delineated with signage. This probably means that the water source is probably or potentially contaminated with fecal material and the health hazards that go along with it.
While I am at it, what about the major about of horse poop along the trails that surely finds its way into the areas streams. Probably a few parts per million horse poop? n top of this, horses basically destroy trail sections that are narrow and on real steep slopes. Horses and their s***** don't belong on steep mountain trails.
On a positive note,104 hikers trodding down the vegetation must be as effective as an ATC SWEAT crew in clearing the trail.
mississippi_dan
10-20-2019, 21:49
Yes, Standing Indian Mountain is in the Southern Nantahala Wilderness Area. Group size is limited to 10. Sad that some groups are clueless or just completely disregard any rules.
glenlawson
10-20-2019, 21:49
How was the weather? Any rains from Tropical Storm Nestor or did that stay to the South? I imagine they picked National Forest lands to avoid the whole permit and campground fees. With a group that large, each individual is anonymous so of course your protests about "outdoor ethics" and "leave no trace" would fall on deaf ears.
I'm curious about how they handle the whole "bring ONLY what is on the (very specific) packing list" thing. Is that about prohibiting booze and tobacco? I'm curious about their planning and how they are bringing that many people to the top of a mountain, but can't manage an advance team to have those two guys on the mountain much earlier to say "man, there's going to be a lot of people up here."
When they got settled in, did all 104 whip out a jet boil stove or was there some sort of group cooking? I've led groups before, but since this seems more like experience than process, it's got me curious.
MichaelK7
10-20-2019, 21:59
As soon as I heard "104", I would have been out of there, unless I was completely exhausted.
Although I try not to stealth camp if possible, I have resorted to it when trails/shlters/campsites have been overrun with people.
chknfngrs
10-20-2019, 22:10
You’re not the only one with mixed emotions
Ran into something similar last year. Maybe 40-50 of them. Some sort of spiritual self realization thing. Learning self respect, reliance, I dunno. Just struck me as weird. My paranoid friend who was hiking with me thought it had to be some sort of CIA training. Yeah...
Anyway they were southbound and I was northbound so never saw them again, just in passing.
The most interesting part was seeing how they were equipped. Some had legitimate gear, others look like they raided Walmart with no idea what they were about to do.
I want to say they had some sort of encampment/feeding station/whatever a few miles south of Betty Creek Gap.
Emerson Bigills
10-20-2019, 23:33
The outdoors should be for everyone, but people who lead large groups like this into the backwoods are jerks. They are ruining the experience for any one in the vicinity and when they camp, they are likely breaking many LNT principles. Rude, inconsiderate and ignorant. I don't care what their "purpose" is, or what they purport to stand for.
splash1986
10-21-2019, 06:11
How was the weather? Any rains from Tropical Storm Nestor or did that stay to the South? I imagine they picked National Forest lands to avoid the whole permit and campground fees. With a group that large, each individual is anonymous so of course your protests about "outdoor ethics" and "leave no trace" would fall on deaf ears.
I'm curious about how they handle the whole "bring ONLY what is on the (very specific) packing list" thing. Is that about prohibiting booze and tobacco? I'm curious about their planning and how they are bringing that many people to the top of a mountain, but can't manage an advance team to have those two guys on the mountain much earlier to say "man, there's going to be a lot of people up here."
When they got settled in, did all 104 whip out a jet boil stove or was there some sort of group cooking? I've led groups before, but since this seems more like experience than process, it's got me curious.
Weather was great Friday..... lots of rain Saturday though. I managed to finish up Saturday evening, as the rain was not showing any signs of stopping. The first guys who arrived did tell me they were bringing a large group, however it was close to dark at that point and I was already set up where I was. In hindsight, I would have moved if I had known how bad it was going to be.
Traveler
10-21-2019, 07:24
Contacting the appropriate authority for the area may result in a letter being dispatched, perhaps along with basic rules of etiquette. Not a lot that could be done at the time, though given the late hour the group stayed up, I would figure they would have a difficult time getting started in the morning. Being an early riser, sometime around 4:30 am or so, I might have packed up and kept/foiund something loud to bang on to help each and every person was awake and ready to start their day, I'm sure everyone would be grateful. :rolleyes:
cmoulder
10-21-2019, 07:49
I'm pretty sure I would've been outta there lickety split.
Been in similar situations (never 104, though!:eek:) and have moseyed on down the trail a bit. Nowadays it's easier to do because the hammock opens up many more stealth options.
Definitely report this group, however.
Contacting the appropriate authority for the area may result in a letter being dispatched, perhaps along with basic rules of etiquette. Not a lot that could be done at the time, though given the late hour the group stayed up, I would figure they would have a difficult time getting started in the morning. Being an early riser, sometime around 4:30 am or so, I might have packed up and kept/foiund something loud to bang on to help each and every person was awake and ready to start their day, I'm sure everyone would be grateful. :rolleyes:
Sounds like an excellent plan!
splash1986
10-21-2019, 18:43
So quick update, I spoke with the local Nantahala Ranger District, and it sounds like they will be issuing fines and citations to the organization. Obviously, they were in violation of the group size restriction. Also, I forgot to mention in my initial post that they were using battery operated chainsaws to cut firewood, which is a violation also. The ranger I spoke with also said that they removed a ton of trash from the Deep Gap parking area, mainly water jugs, which he believes was left behind by the group.
In addition, the organizations headquarters reached out to me via Facebook to discuss the incident over the phone at some point. ( I had posted on the organizations FB site about it). So, more to come, I’ll update everyone as things progress. Happy trails all.
https://youtu.be/8m0EGfC-Hhk
just dad
10-21-2019, 19:42
They violated several of the Leave No Trace Principles. I would have approached the group leader and attempted to have a discussion of the Leave No Trace Principles. Of course it would not have done any good in your situation since anyone who cares about the environment or fellow hikers would never even think about taking a group of that size into the backcountry.
https://youtu.be/8m0EGfC-Hhk
Exactly, bunch of self righteous hypocrites!!
chiefiepoo
10-21-2019, 21:47
Sort of like moving a light infantry company through the forrest. Without the discipline.
Mr. Bumpy
10-21-2019, 22:04
I just surfed over the the parent organization's web page and if I have it correct 3MUSA charges $250 per person for these outings. Holy ****. If true, isn't that a violation of something? Groups that utilize public lands around here for profit have to pull some type of permit and pay a fee. Plus I noticed that they police and edit their facebook page as well. There were critical comments posted yesterday and now they are gone.
First world problems and all that... but it would irk me more than a little if I thought about it more. Ah well, doin' god's work.
chknfngrs
10-21-2019, 22:11
Get that do-goodery happy-then-poppycock out of my way
ldsailor
10-21-2019, 22:52
I watched the video zelph posted. Man, if I saw that coming my way, it would scare the hell out of me and I'd be moving as fast as I could the other way. I've encountered Boy Scout troops in that area before and changed my camp plans when I learned they were heading for the same camp site.
BTW. Did you notice the packs a couple of those guys were carrying? It looked like something Tippy would be humping on one of his two week winter hikers into nowhere.
Traffic Jam
10-21-2019, 23:00
They’ll be in Wichita Mountains in February. I hope someone alerts the authorities. They definitely have to procure a Special Use permit for commercial activities.
Looking at the Wichita Mountain Rules and Regulations, there’s no limit to group size East of SH 115. Anyone familiar with that area?
So quick update, I spoke with the local Nantahala Ranger District, and it sounds like they will be issuing fines and citations to the organization. Obviously, they were in violation of the group size restriction. Also, I forgot to mention in my initial post that they were using battery operated chainsaws to cut firewood, which is a violation also. The ranger I spoke with also said that they removed a ton of trash from the Deep Gap parking area, mainly water jugs, which he believes was left behind by the group.
In addition, the organizations headquarters reached out to me via Facebook to discuss the incident over the phone at some point. ( I had posted on the organizations FB site about it). So, more to come, I’ll update everyone as things progress. Happy trails all.
I applaud you for taking action, these folks have to know they can't go around trashing our trails up like this. Stomping down vegetation, going to bathroom everywhere etc..
Hi Friends,
And by the way, the sunset at Standing Indian was totally worth it. :)
There ya go, it was all well worth it. Good for you my friend!
At the end of this month there will be 60+ hammock hangers converging on a campground in North Carolina. Join them for the fun.
NC >Yates Fall Back Hang > Oct31 - Nov 3 2019
https://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/nfsnc/recarea/?recid=48948
side note to splash1986: I spent Christmas 2 years ago in your fine city of Nack-a-tish :-)
I encountered a similar experience on Tray Mountain about 3 years ago. If I remember correctly this group of about 35 "marching" about 30 inches apart were from a Saturday Adventist training facility somewhere in the area and were having a bonding experience before departing into the world for missionary work. This was extremely disarming. No way can back country sites absorb such a heavy impact. Just the sanitary issues are overwhelming. But it seems that the entire southern AT, especially during the bubble season, is being overwhelmed by far too much traffic. How long before health officials will have to begin limiting the number of hikers on the trail one time?
I was at Derrick Knob Shelter in the Smokies in early September. When I when to use the potty on the non-water side of the mountain, I encountered what looked like more than a hundred "flowers" of unburied toilet paper. Now if the paper was unburied, then surely what goes with it was also not buried. This seems to be an fast expanding problem at all shelters without privies. Now at some shelterers the Poop side too the mountain is not clearly delineated with signage. This probably means that the water source is probably or potentially contaminated with fecal material and the health hazards that go along with it.
That's such an unfortunate experience. I've heard this is becoming a massive problem out west where there's a lot more resistance to development. Trails like the JMT have AT numbers now, but far fewer amenities. I only encountered a couple poorly dug catholes on the AT. One person just put their toilet paper in a tree stump.
On my fourth night of my thru, Low Gap Shelter had around 100 people.
On behalf of hikers everywhere, I thank you for following up on this and bringing it to the authorities.
Heliotrope
10-22-2019, 10:09
I got to wonder how much of a spirital wilderness expereince camping with 104 other people and trashing the top of a mountain is? And is this a racket I can cash in on too?
Definately report them, but I suspect they already know about them. Can't be the first time they did this.
Whole heartedly agree. Large groups need to reserve group campsites. Not overwhelm backcountry sites.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
stephanD
10-22-2019, 10:18
I just surfed over the the parent organization's web page and if I have it correct 3MUSA charges $250 per person for these outings. Holy ****. If true, isn't that a violation of something? Groups that utilize public lands around here for profit have to pull some type of permit and pay a fee. Plus I noticed that they police and edit their facebook page as well. There were critical comments posted yesterday and now they are gone.
First world problems and all that... but it would irk me more than a little if I thought about it more. Ah well, doin' god's work.
$250.00 per person? Damn....I'm in the wrong business.
stephanD
10-22-2019, 10:22
I have seen Boy scouts groups of 20-25 adults included at the most. I cannot even imagine a group of 104 adults on the AT. This is obscene.
Lone Wolf
10-22-2019, 10:25
I cannot even imagine a group of 104 adults on the AT. This is obscene.
go to any shelter area late march, early april in georgia and you'll witness this
Traffic Jam
10-22-2019, 11:32
The February Wichita gathering is being held on private land.
splash1986
10-22-2019, 18:52
There ya go, it was all well worth it. Good for you my friend!
At the end of this month there will be 60+ hammock hangers converging on a campground in North Carolina. Join them for the fun.
NC >Yates Fall Back Hang > Oct31 - Nov 3 2019
https://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/nfsnc/recarea/?recid=48948
side note to splash1986: I spent Christmas 2 years ago in your fine city of Nack-a-tish :-)
Hope you enjoyed your visit! I don’t live there anymore (badly need to update my profile) but I had a great 10 years there!
Food was outstanding, had aligator steaks and other great foods. Festival of lights was a sight for sore eyes. Did a lot of sightseeing, twas a Merry Christmas :-)
Some thought that came to mind.....
I was going to say Boy Scouts for grown men who missed the chance, but when I saw $250 a head cover fee I realized it’s just another way to monetize the hiking experience.
This is is my idea of a ruined trip.
The original poster showed great restraint and decency, I hope I would have handled it as well.
I would have have been very tempted to shout out the glory of God and nature ( as the 2 am prayer group did) at first birdsong ( 6 am) with a heartfelt dose of “ need more cowbells!”
The video is is like a viagra meets paramilitary recruitment flick.
They are marketing this as a form of Christian Man empowerment? Pardon me Jesus, but ***.
How could anyone with any respect for the wilderness and back to nature camping experience condone taking 104 backpacker / campers, many probably newbies, to a limited spot with no toileting facilities, with CHAINSAWS!
another example of why beautiful areas which are close to public access roads should be considered with caution.
although many grumble about the government putting restrictions on hiking and portions of the AT and national forests, we need these laws and people to enforce them to prevent this type of event from becoming the new normal.
I’m familiar with the Wichita mountains in Oklahoma. Beautiful spot, lots of rattlers when I was there. A environmentally delicate place due to arid conditions. I hope the group visiting is schooled on leave no trace, even if on private land.
If the the participants were questioned privately about their experience, what would their responses be? Perhaps some will go on to be active outdoorsmen, and good stewards of their environment. A wonderful thing!
Repeat point number 6
just my take on things, HYOH folks.
Send them an email to voice your concerns about leave no trace and other things.
https://www.4musa.com/contact
https://www.4musa.com/about
quote:
The 4th Musketeer was the idea of… a woman. One evening in September 2007, Ruth Stoorvogel told her husband, Henk, "Why don't you start something adventurous and challenging with men? Not something ordinary but a movement unlike any other men's movement." Inspiring men to a more fulfilled life based on the person of Jesus Christ and inspired by the character D'Artagnan, the protagonist in the book The Three Musketeers, the XCC concept was developed. An epic adventure where men experience great physical challenge, mental exhaustion and wild inspiration; all for a greater cause. A movement where men’s hearts are awakened.
Zelph - Thanks for those links. I just sent them an e-mail. Not sure I'll hear back but if I do, I'll be happy to report what comes my way.
That's all for now. Take care and until next time...be well.
snapper
Last Call
10-23-2019, 13:40
As long as the group was well behaved and left no trace I don't see a problem with it. They probably had reservations/permit in advance.
As long as the group was well behaved and left no trace I don't see a problem with it. They probably had reservations/permit in advance.
Backcountry regulations limited group size to 10. How do you think they got a reservation for over a hundred people?
gpburdelljr
10-23-2019, 14:02
As long as the group was well behaved and left no trace I don't see a problem with it. They probably had reservations/permit in advance.
They were not well behaved (loud into wee hours of morning), left trash, illegally used electric chain saws, and violated rules on group size. See posts #1, #13, #23
stephanD
10-23-2019, 14:06
What consenting adults do with their money is, of course, their business. There's nothing wrong with men (and women) wanting to better themselves but if they are looking for a spiritual experience, I doubt one would find it in such large groups.
just dad
10-23-2019, 14:21
Zelph, Thank you for posting and for the updates. i also sent the group a message.
It looked like something Tippy would be humping on one of his two week winter hikers into nowhere.
That's funny!
I did express my displeasure to who I think was the leader the next morning, and they did apologize and offer me food, water, etc.
That's a nice jesture, good on them.
The Standing Indian Campground has a "group camping" area....I suspect that is where their base camp was situated for their 72 hour gathering. Their site says they are organized in groups of 10. Could it be that there was far less than the total group of 104 on the mountain top?
chknfngrs
10-24-2019, 09:43
Yeah but did they offer you a beer?
Yeah but did they offer you a beer?
Yes me thinks so. It was included in the "etc" :-)
Slo-go'en
10-24-2019, 18:24
That's a nice jesture, good on them.
The Standing Indian Campground has a "group camping" area....I suspect that is where their base camp was situated for their 72 hour gathering. Their site says they are organized in groups of 10. Could it be that there was far less than the total group of 104 on the mountain top?
Sounds like 10 groups of 10 went to the same place at same time.