View Full Version : Help with military question
If I may ask a bit of leeway from the administrators for a question that is not related to hiking.
My dad was a WWII vet. He kept his uniform from the day he was discharged in 1945 to the day he died in 2007. Now I have it, took it out of the suit bag, and realized that I don't have a single clue what the badges and insignia mean.
I know there are a lot of military people on this site (active, former, and retired), so if any of you might know what they mean, I would be most grateful.
I know my dad enlisted in the Army in 1941. I think he did basic training somewhere in Alabama, then was sent to Iceland, then England, then followed the Normandy invasion with a 'second wave' some days afterward, then went through France, Poland, and Germany. He was with the Third Army, but I'm not sure what that means. He was with the signal corps (?) and said he spent most of the war driving a jeep lost, trying to read maps that made no sense, and trying not to cross into enemy lines, all to deliver messages, maps, and communications. He started as a private but discharged at a higher rank -- he said when officers were killed in battle, it was often "next man up" to the rank of the deceased.
He saved his discharge papers, some memorabilia, some pics of him and his company members in various places in Europe, and other odds and ends. I still have that stuff.
That's all I know. If anyone could tell me what the things on the uniform mean, I would be most grateful.
Thanks in advance.45788457894579045791
Your Dad was a staff sergeant according to the sleeve insignia.
The patch on the lower right sleeve is a meritorious unit commendation.
Time Zone
10-27-2019, 21:14
John B -
Many thanks for your dad's service.
Signal corps relates to communications, as you later mentioned. Security of communications is always a big deal in war, and WWII brought about the mechanization of secrecy, as Simon Singh termed it in his popular work on encryption, The Code Book. Among the most (in)famous mechanisms for encryption of communications was the German Enigma machine, which had more combinations of settings (potentially) than atoms in the universe. It was eventually broken by the British, who were given a huge head start by the Poles. But that's another story.
If you use a photo editing program to crop and rotate (as needed) your digital photos so that only the individual insignia/bar is showing, you can try a reverse image search using google images. That may get you the answers you seek. Best wishes - TZ
I believe that the stripes on the lower left sleeve are service stripes. He may have gotten one for each year he was overseas.
I bet your Dad had some great stories.
Pringles
10-27-2019, 21:53
I found a page about the third army, and that shows the blue and white patch as indicating he was in the 35th infantry division. I found that here... http://pattonthirdarmy.com/3rdarmysummaries/3rd%20Army%20patches.jpg
Pringles
10-27-2019, 22:03
According to our “friends” at Wikipedia, the gold bars on the sleeve are “Overseas service bars,” and you got one for each six months you spent overseas. I don’t always trust Wikipedia with details, so I’d look up those terms for confirmation. That said, I just went to army.mil, and found a page that offers information about symbols and insignia. It’s probably great, but it won’t load on my iPad. I also found that the Service Stripe, the angled stripe, indicates each 3 year re-enlistment. Honestly, I don’t know if that means he signed up for a second tour or not, but if you look up “service stripe,” you should get more information.
Pringles
10-27-2019, 22:16
The metal insignia on the left collar indicates he was in the signal corps. I think the metal insignia that is orange and white indicates a sub element of the signal corps, but I haven’t found that exact one yet. It appears that the gold embroidered eagle on a laurel wreath is an honorable discharge patch. Again, I’d look up those terms, adding World War II, to confirm, but I’m seeing it listed in a lot of places.
Pringles
10-27-2019, 22:37
The lion’s head, on the left shoulder is supposed to indicate the 106th infantry division, the Golden Lion Division. The red ribbon with the little white stripes is apparently an army good conduct medal, the yellow appears to be an American Defense Service Medal, and the light blue looks like it’s an American Campaign Medal. The one with so many (not so defined) colors, and the little stars appears to be an European-African-Middle Eastern-Campaign Medal. The stars are for folks who served in “more than one designated campaign.” Again, you can/should confirm the information I did get... but the terms that I used ought to help you find more, and confirming, information. I’ll see what I can find about the metal pin thingie, but the battery on my device is at 6%. Probably someone with some real experience will come along and really know the answers. Your dad’s service sounds impressive.
I notice that you have received posts which indicate there are 2 insignia on the uniform for Division service. They mean different things.
The Division insignia on the left sleeve was the unit your father was serving in when he left the service or when he last wore that uniform. 106th Infantry Div.
The Division insignia on the right sleeve indicates he served in combat with that division previously. 35th Infantry Division
The 35th was instrumental in the breakout from the Normandy beachhead in battles around St Lo and it was also in the Battle of the Bulge. It suffered the following during WWII
Total battle casualties: 15,822[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35th_Infantry_Division_(United_States)#cite_note-Nonbattle_Deaths_1953-22)
Killed in action: 2,485[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35th_Infantry_Division_(United_States)#cite_note-Nonbattle_Deaths_1953-22)
Wounded in action: 11,526[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35th_Infantry_Division_(United_States)#cite_note-Nonbattle_Deaths_1953-22)
Missing in action: 340[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35th_Infantry_Division_(United_States)#cite_note-Nonbattle_Deaths_1953-22)
Prisoner of war: 1,471[2 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35th_Infantry_Division_(United_States)#cite_note-Nonbattle_Deaths_1953-22)2]
Additionally.
The 106th Infantry Div also fought at the Battle of the Bulge. It was sort of overrun and scattered and 2 of its regiments had to surrender to the Germans thus they lost almost 50% of their men as prisoners. The division essentially ceased to exist for a time. It was reconstituted later in March when men and units from other Divisions were transferred to it. This is likely when your father ended up in it - as a guess.
Re your recollection that your fathers unit went through Poland during the war. Poland was liberated by Soviet troops and passed into their control. There were no American troops there during the war. The 35th traveled from France, to Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany. The 106th was in France, Belgium and Germany.
I am not an expert and it is certainly possible I have something wrong.
Totally appreciate all of the responses. They are all extremely helpful. I never thought to ask for many details when my dad was alive.
Wyoming mentioned St. Lo. Reading that, my dad mentioned combat in St. Lo. Also Nice, France.
About Poland, that's almost certainly my memory problem. The stuff he told me was long ago and I never wrote it down. That's my bad. I do remember him saying that they could have pushed in much further but decisions made by politicians held them back. But maybe that was just GI talk. I'll never know.
One story he repeated the most was going through a small village in France that had just been liberated, and the villagers going after and catching those who sympathized with and aided the Germans. He said the villagers were leading them out of town. I asked what happened, and he said he didn't know -- "No one wanted to see that."
He also had medals put in a frame with some labels. Very faded but still legible. "American Campaign," "European Campaign," WWII Victory," "American Occupation," "Meritorious Emblem," and his dog tag.
Again, huge thanks for all the info.
45792
Furlough
10-28-2019, 06:34
The patch above the right breast pocket is the honorable discharge patch. The patch on the lower right sleeve is the meritorious unit award patch.
Furlough
10-28-2019, 06:39
The unit patch on the upper right shoulder is the 35 Infantry Division Patch.
Furlough
10-28-2019, 06:42
The unit patch on the left shoulder is the 106th INFANTRY DIVISION.
Found a scrapbook of stuff my dad kept. Lots of military records, weird stuff like a 1944 Army Christmas dinner menu, coins, paper money, letters, and some badly fading pics. The discharge papers were funny to read -- he served 4 years 7 mths and 26 days and got a mustering out pay of $300 and travel pay of $9.15. He also typed a letter outlining his service -- Ft. Custer, MI for basic training, then assigned to 5th Division, then to Iceland in April 1942. In Iceland, applied to Officer Candidate School, then to Ft. Benning, Georgia for 90 days training. He didn't pass the tactical exam, but he wrote that in retrospect it was probably a blessing because so many infantry officers died. Then sent to Camp Rucker, Alabama and was placed as the message center chief of the 35 division. Then sent to Liverpool, England. Then moved to France on July 6, 1944 on Omaha Beach. Stayed in Normandy until mid August. He wrote, "Normandy was filled with hedgerows where Germans could set up machine gun emplacements. It was very difficult to locate and destroy them."
Then he wrote that there would be a carpet bombing of St. Lo. He said he went on top of a hill to watch and saw "wave after wave of B-17 bombers." He wrote, "The bombing killed most of the Germans, but those who survived were not any problem. They had been bombed senseless."
After that, "there was the Battle of Mortin." Transferred from the 1st army to the 3rd army. Then to Orleans, France, then Troyes "where the Free French Army joined us." Then to Nancy "where we stayed until the Battle of the Bulge when we were moved to Metz.
He wrote that they were fighting on a 28 mile front held by the new 106th division, the 4th armored, and ???? He wrote, "We were close to Luxemburg while holding the right flank."
Then to Venlo, Holland "where the town was in very bad shape and people were starving."
Then into Germany toward Cologne. He wrote that they crossed the Rhine on a pontoon bridge built by combat engineers. He wrote that the destruction was enormous.
Then into Belgium, east of the Rhine. He wrote that the 35th division was assigned to the 9th army.
Then he wrote a long paragraph on the division being ordered to stop at the Elbe river. He wrote that they could have reached Berlin before the Russians.
He left Germany on Sept 1 1945 for port of embarkation at Le Harve, FRance.
I've got a whole scrapbook of stuff to wade through. If I had any sense, I would have talked with my dad at length before he died.
Thanks for your tolerance on a distinctly non-hiking related matter.
Group pic (my dad back row 4th from left), discharge paper, my dad standing in front of ruins in France, my dad and 3 others in his company in Belgium (my dad 2nd from left).
45802 45803 45804 45805
Here is a website to help identify the ribbon "garden plot"; just go to the service (Army in this case) and it will show you the medals in order of precedence (most important to least).
And the website link (dddduuuuhhhh)
http://officialmilitaryribbons.com/
johnacraft
10-28-2019, 10:21
About Poland, that's almost certainly my memory problem. The stuff he told me was long ago and I never wrote it down. That's my bad. I do remember him saying that they could have pushed in much further but decisions made by politicians held them back. But maybe that was just GI talk.
It's true. The Soviets suffered far more casualties (both military and civilian) from the German invasion than other Allied nations suffered in the European theater. As a result, Stalin insisted that the Soviets capture Berlin without participation by the other Allies, and in northern Germany the Elbe River was the agreed line of demarcation between the Soviet army's operations and the Allied forces approaching Berlin from the west. (Line of Contact (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_contact)) (Elbe Day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbe_Day))
Farther south, US forces did move into western Czechoslovakia, but not Poland.
John B
I envy you to some extent. I never even knew my father had been in the service until I was about 15. My mother was not allowed to speak of it (she served as an Army nurse in the war) and he had never said a word. I found some of his uniform stuff in an old trunk in the basement and was very curious. He would never answer any questions.
Being a bit too persistent I guess with trying to get something out of him one day he looks up at me with an icy look which I can remember to this day. He says to me the only thing I got to tell you is don't ever make friends with anybody. Then he tells me about picking up the remains of his best friend. We never spoke about the war again.
I had always wondered why he had no friends and had no interest in other people. He talked to no one - not even me. All he wanted to do the entire time I knew him was to sit on a rock along the river fishing and smoking cigarettes. He did not even care if he caught anything. He would sit there from morning until night just watching the water go by. I never saw him laugh in my entire life.
TwoSpirits
10-28-2019, 16:01
John B,
You are very fortunate to have so much information about your dad's service right at your fingertips. Very fortunate.
The two pins on the uniform lapels are called Distinctive Unit Insignia (DUI), and these DUI are for the 35th Signal Company.
As others have said, the patch above the right breast pocket is the Honorable Service or Discharge patch -- it was nicknamed "the ruptured duck", and was given to military personnel when they mustered out of service. (In the medal presentation box that you have, you will also see it came as a lapel pin.) Honorably discharged personnel received this to wear on their uniforms even though they were no longer in service because they most often did not have civilian clothes immediately available to them. Wearing the patch on the uniform would have provided some benefits as they travelled home, as would wearing the lapel pin on their civilian clothes.
As others have said, the ribbons over the left pocket are (as pictured) American Campaign; Europe-Africa-Middle East Campaign, with 5 bronze campaign stars; American Defense Sevice; and Army Good Conduct. The medals in your presentation box are the same, except it also has the Occupation Medal.
The rectangular red pin at the bottom of the case is the Meritorious Unit Commendation. Your dad's uniform shows the earlier, embroidered version on the lower right sleeve, but at some point the Army changed that over to the red pin; it would be worn centered over the right breast pocket (not both types at once, however.)
The European Campaign medal in the box has 1 silver campaign star; this is the same as having the 5 bronze campaign stars as shown on the medal on the uniform. The campaigns that the 35th Infantry Division were credited with were: Normandy, Northern France, Alsace-Ardennes, Rhineland, and Central Europe.
If you wanted to complete the ribbon rack on the uniform, you only need to add the Occupation medal. If you want the rack to be really accurate, they just need to be placed differently, as they are "out of order" -- the military uses an order of precedence for wearing the decorations. I believe the proper placement would be (from the viewer's perspective): top row, left to right -- Good Conduct, American Service (yellow), and American Campaign (blue); bottom row, left to right -- European Campaign, WWII VIctory, and then the Occupation medal.
I had to laugh when I read that your dad spent the was "driving a jeep lost, reading maps that made no sense, and trying not to cross over enemy lines..." My dad was a radio operator in a anti-aircraft battalion, and he said practically the same thing!
You are fortunate to have these items as well as so much of your dad's information and memories. Take good care of them. I know that I can't measure up to any of these men & women who served, but I can be a steward and pass their memories on.
And hey -- hang around Whiteblaze and go for a hike!
One Half
10-28-2019, 18:15
I believe that the stripes on the lower left sleeve are service stripes. He may have gotten one for each year he was overseas.
I bet your Dad had some great stories.
one stripe for every 3 years of service. So that would be 12 years up to 15 years that he served. once he made 15 years, he would be due another. those generally take a while to receive depending on the unit and how "on top of it" they were.
One Half
10-28-2019, 18:21
if your dad is deceased you may request his full service record. there may be much more info in there than what you have. (if he's still living he can request the record).
Here's a link about how to request his service record
https://www.usa.gov/military-records
Yes, many records were "burned." some of those are actually being restored.
If you want I can do a search on Fold3 for service records for him. It's a paid site that many who do family history research use. Also, you could look for unit histories and sometimes you will end up with photos! I'm hoping some day that my father's records will be restored.
Also, the state where he enlisted in will sometimes have some info on his service as veterans at the end of WWII were encouraged to "file copies" with their home state. I think this had to do with VA benefits and GI bill.
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/miscgreen/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by thestin https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2257498#post2257498)
I believe that the stripes on the lower left sleeve are service stripes. He may have gotten one for each year he was overseas.
I bet your Dad had some great stories.
[/QUOTE]one stripe for every 3 years of service. So that would be 12 years up to 15 years that he served. once he made 15 years, he would be due another. those generally take a while to receive depending on the unit and how "on top of it" they were.[QUOTE]
Both of these comments are incorrect.
The hash marks on the 'left' sleeve of the picture consist of 1 Service stripe (you can barely see it at the bottom of the pic) and 4 WWII Overseas bars (one was worn for each 6 months of combat service overseas).
. Service Stripes (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Service_stripe), or "Hash Marks", (awarded for every 3 years of service) were worn on the lower left sleeve. World War I Overseas Chevrons (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Overseas_Chevron) [created 1918] and/or World War II Overseas Bars (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Overseas_Service_Bar) [created 1944] (awarded for each six months combat service overseas) were worn on the lower left sleeve between the elbow and lower sleeve, but above the Service Stripes. The World War II Bars were worn over the World War I Chevrons. After 1953 the Service Stripes were kept on the lower left sleeve and the Overseas Service Stripes were moved to the lower right sleeve.
One Half
10-29-2019, 16:34
Both of these comments are incorrect.
The hash marks on the 'left' sleeve of the picture consist of 1 Service stripe (you can barely see it at the bottom of the pic) and 4 WWII Overseas bars (one was worn for each 6 months of combat service overseas).
. Service Stripes (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Service_stripe), or "Hash Marks", (awarded for every 3 years of service) were worn on the lower left sleeve. World War I Overseas Chevrons (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Overseas_Chevron) [created 1918] and/or World War II Overseas Bars (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Overseas_Service_Bar) [created 1944] (awarded for each six months combat service overseas) were worn on the lower left sleeve between the elbow and lower sleeve, but above the Service Stripes. The World War II Bars were worn over the World War I Chevrons. After 1953 the Service Stripes were kept on the lower left sleeve and the Overseas Service Stripes were moved to the lower right sleeve.
Ah, you are correct. I didn't see the lower service stripe for 3 years service. saw the 4 stripes and thought they were service stripes, not overseas bars/stripes.