View Full Version : Kinsman Notch to Franconia Notch, slack or pack?
illabelle
11-04-2019, 21:43
A while back I was advised to slack the 16.3 mile section from Kinsman to Franconia because of some very steep climbs up S Kinsman. For us, 16 miles is a long day even on an easy trail. To manage 16 miles on a steep rocky beastly trail will require some preparation/conditioning. I expect we'll be doing this hike in August/Sept of 2020, so we have time to work on it, but that's still going to be a long long day.
There is the Eliza Brook Shelter about halfway in this section. If we backpack, we could stay there and break it up into two 8-mile days. But of course, we'd have to carry our full packs up that steep rocky beastly trail.
Seems like either way is going to be tough. Is one option clearly better?
FreeGoldRush
11-04-2019, 22:35
Slackpacking helps a bunch in NH and ME. It’s not just that it’s steep, but the rocks and boulders require deep knee bends. Going light sure is nice. I slackpacked that section.
If that’s a long section for you then just make a long day out of it. Start early. An hour or two before sunrise with a headlamp works well. Bring food. Take however many breaks you need. You’ll be passing hidden pond hut (I think that’s the name), so stop by and get soup and bread with some lemonade.
Slo-go'en
11-04-2019, 23:26
It's sort of a toss up. Do you want to do a 8 hour day or a 16 hour day? Chances are your not going to be moving much faster then 1 MPH on average and there are a lot of places to stop and take in the view.
If you did this in August, you can still go reasonably light for an overnight hike, probably not much more then a well prepared day hiker should carry (but often doesn't).
We start to see a significant reduction in daylight hours by early September although the hiking weather is typically better and there is less of a crowd. The middle of August can get real busy as everyone suddenly realizes summer is almost over and the kids go back to school soon.
Slo-go'en
11-04-2019, 23:29
You’ll be passing hidden pond hut (I think that’s the name), so stop by and get soup and bread with some lemonade.
I believe you mean Lonesome Lake :)
peakbagger
11-05-2019, 07:03
The issue with that section is not just South Kinsman its the cumulative effort. Lot of not so insignificant PUDS between the notch and Eliza Brook. Many thruhikers are accustomed to far longer daily mileage prior to Glencliff and Moosiluakee tends to get them in panic when they dont make the expected miles. They then think they can make it up on the stretch between Kinsman Notch and Franconia Notch and are sadly surprised. Unless you have a typical section hiker trying to get in 10 days of hiking in 7 days, split it up into 2 days with a stop at Eliza Brook. The problem with doing a long 16 miler one day is the next day its up Liberty and over Lafayette ridge another long day unless you spring for a stay at Greenleaf Hut. Otherwise its all the way to Garfield hut.
illabelle
11-05-2019, 07:24
The issue with that section is not just South Kinsman its the cumulative effort. Lot of not so insignificant PUDS between the notch and Eliza Brook. Many thruhikers are accustomed to far longer daily mileage prior to Glencliff and Moosiluakee tends to get them in panic when they dont make the expected miles. They then think they can make it up on the stretch between Kinsman Notch and Franconia Notch and are sadly surprised. Unless you have a typical section hiker trying to get in 10 days of hiking in 7 days, split it up into 2 days with a stop at Eliza Brook. The problem with doing a long 16 miler one day is the next day its up Liberty and over Lafayette ridge another long day unless you spring for a stay at Greenleaf Hut. Otherwise its all the way to Garfield hut.
In our case, we've already done the Whites (hut to hut). This trip is about filling in the gaps. It will start with the Wildcats (3 days) because we'll have a reservation at Carter Notch. With a rental car we'll have flexibility to do the Kinsmans (pack or slack) and 2 other slacks (1. Moosilauke 2. Mt W to Madison - taking the cog up to Mt W) in whatever order best responds to weather/weariness. So for example, we might do a 16-mile Kinsman slack and follow it up with the relatively easy slack from Mt W to Madison (and then down Valley Way).
illabelle
11-05-2019, 07:28
It's sort of a toss up. Do you want to do a 8 hour day or a 16 hour day? Chances are your not going to be moving much faster then 1 MPH on average and there are a lot of places to stop and take in the view.
If you did this in August, you can still go reasonably light for an overnight hike, probably not much more then a well prepared day hiker should carry (but often doesn't).
We start to see a significant reduction in daylight hours by early September although the hiking weather is typically better and there is less of a crowd. The middle of August can get real busy as everyone suddenly realizes summer is almost over and the kids go back to school soon.
Good point. If we slack, we'll still need to carry a lot of our gear, except tent and sleeping bags. We'd still need food and rain gear and warm clothes.
illabelle
11-05-2019, 07:30
Slackpacking helps a bunch in NH and ME. It’s not just that it’s steep, but the rocks and boulders require deep knee bends. Going light sure is nice. I slackpacked that section.
If that’s a long section for you then just make a long day out of it. Start early. An hour or two before sunrise with a headlamp works well. Bring food. Take however many breaks you need. You’ll be passing hidden pond hut (I think that’s the name), so stop by and get soup and bread with some lemonade.
This really is tempting!
We covered this section SOBO this past August on our thru hike, but camped in different locations than you are planning for. In my journal I remarked that after looking at our elevation maps, "The hard sections were more difficult than expected and the "easy" sections were WAY more difficult." Lots of mud and bogs as well as tough climbs/descents. We were carrying full packs. I can't imagine covering this ground in one day slacking or otherwise. We had rain and lots of fog, though. Weather can make a big difference.
I've done that section camping out at Eliza Brook Shelter. It's a fairly new shelter and was a real nice spot to camp. South Kinsman is steep but I didn't find it that difficult. YMMV.
Slo-go'en
11-05-2019, 10:31
Washington to Madison and down the Valley way isn't an easy day either. Just hope your not fighting the wind, that can really wear you down.
Instead of the Cog, take the auto road hiker shuttle at 9 AM. It's only $20 as opposed to $75 for the Cog.
ldsailor
11-05-2019, 10:34
I did that section last year. That climb out of Kinsman Notch is a little misleading. When I got to the Eliza Brook shelter, I said to myself, "That wasn't bad. I think I'll go for the next shelter." The next four miles going up a steep rocky climb took me almost six hours. Yes, I'm a slow, deliberate hiker and anyone out there can go faster than me, but that doesn't take away the fact that it's a tough climb. If I were you, I'd get the section past the Eliza Brook shelter out of the way and then stay at the Kinsman Pond shelter overnight. The next morning sleep in and get to the Lonesome Lake Hut just after their breakfast and have some free breakfast. I never stopped at a hut in the Whites where there wasn't leftovers from breakfast.
Gambit McCrae
11-05-2019, 10:42
A while back I was advised to slack the 16.3 mile section from Kinsman to Franconia because of some very steep climbs up S Kinsman. For us, 16 miles is a long day even on an easy trail. To manage 16 miles on a steep rocky beastly trail will require some preparation/conditioning. I expect we'll be doing this hike in August/Sept of 2020, so we have time to work on it, but that's still going to be a long long day.
There is the Eliza Brook Shelter about halfway in this section. If we backpack, we could stay there and break it up into two 8-mile days. But of course, we'd have to carry our full packs up that steep rocky beastly trail.
Seems like either way is going to be tough. Is one option clearly better?
I Did Hanover to Franconia starting sept 1st. I have to say I didnt really head the warnings i was givin and NH really broke me down. I am used to doing 20's no problem and up in NH I ate my humble pie at a hard 9 miles a day, every day. 6 days we did 54 miles. The last 2 days we did slack packing starting just south of Moosilauke all the way to Franconia and I will say, slack pack it. Even if you have to start before daylight to get up and over wolf early, it is worth it. I would rather do a long 16 mile day slacking rather then 2 8's with full pack.
The hiker hostel in north woodstock will shuttle you for free if you stay at their place, right off i93. But if you wanna start early, you would have to arrange the taxi in town to take you up there.
FYI We took the hiker hostel shuttle at around 7 i think. And we missed the free pickup by 10 minutes and we pushed hard all day to get there in time for the pickup. We started at 7:15am and ended in the pickup parking lot (1 mile off trail on flat bicycle path) at 6:55pm.
steve_zavocki
11-05-2019, 12:04
Last July, I slackpacked the Kinsmans. I was one of my best days ever on the trail. It took me 10 hours and I had to rush a bit at the end to meet my ride. You will need to factor in a 3/4 mile walk on the bike path back to the parking lot, this cannot be avoided without missing some of the AT.
I would say that if you aren't comfortable doing a 16 miler in easy terrain then you should definitely plan on not slacking, and staying at Eliza Brook. IMO, that is an gorgeous location and makes a good point to break up the trip. You can keep the weight down and just bring what you need for one night. The views from the Kinsmans are top notch. Don't miss the short side trail to a view off of North Kinsman. Be super careful if the rocks are wet heading down North Kinsman. You should determine your direction based on the weather if possible. For example, if the rain chance is higher on your second day, then head southbound.
peakbagger
11-05-2019, 14:02
You also can break it into two dayhikes using Reel Brook Trail but it requires spotting cars. I did the entire AT over the whites that way.
Having also done this as a section hiker I would recommend spending the night at Eliza Brook Shelter. I would try to reduce your weight as much as possible with just enough food and sleeping bag to stay in the shelter.
illabelle
11-05-2019, 16:02
I appreciate the good information and advice.
Whether we slack or pack this section, we will need to increase our fitness/conditioning anyway. Two 8-mile days backpacking here can't be much harder than three 7-mile days in the Wildcats. So we'll put our focus on getting ready for the Wildcats. I envision a summer of hiking the steepest trails we can find in the Smokies.
A few weeks after this trip, we'll be back up to NH/ME for a final time to hike the Mahoosucs. We're almost done with this Trail!!
Berserker
11-05-2019, 20:45
I had to look at my notes to remember some of this one. I carried a pack through here and stayed at Eliza Brook Shelter. My recollection is that the shelter area is pretty neat.
Anyway, this section can be broken into two distinct pieces, the half from Kinsman Notch to Eliza Brook Shelter, and the half from that point to Franconia Notch. The first half from a terrain standpoint isn't too horrible, but the second half is very strenuous and rough going on the climbs, descents and in the boggy area between South and North Kinsman peaks (which is really neat by the way). I would agree with the advice given by others that if you hit this in good shape you could probably do a real early start and try to knock the whole thing out in one day. If you were going to do it that way you might want to consider going SOBO and get the harder stuff over with first.
If you decide to carry a pack, I don't think it would make a huge difference and you can take it slower and enjoy the Eliza Brook shelter area. There's a shelter there and a few nice dirt tent pads. Just make sure to roll in there at a decent time as I think this area is fairly heavily used, and I had that it filled up quick in my notes.
illabelle
11-06-2019, 06:26
I had to look at my notes to remember some of this one. I carried a pack through here and stayed at Eliza Brook Shelter. My recollection is that the shelter area is pretty neat.
Anyway, this section can be broken into two distinct pieces, the half from Kinsman Notch to Eliza Brook Shelter, and the half from that point to Franconia Notch. The first half from a terrain standpoint isn't too horrible, but the second half is very strenuous and rough going on the climbs, descents and in the boggy area between South and North Kinsman peaks (which is really neat by the way). I would agree with the advice given by others that if you hit this in good shape you could probably do a real early start and try to knock the whole thing out in one day. If you were going to do it that way you might want to consider going SOBO and get the harder stuff over with first.
If you decide to carry a pack, I don't think it would make a huge difference and you can take it slower and enjoy the Eliza Brook shelter area. There's a shelter there and a few nice dirt tent pads. Just make sure to roll in there at a decent time as I think this area is fairly heavily used, and I had that it filled up quick in my notes.
I had heard that S Kinsman was so steep it was better/safer to go up than down. If it's not so terrible, it would be nice to go SOBO.
Berserker
11-06-2019, 08:46
I had heard that S Kinsman was so steep it was better/safer to go up than down. If it's not so terrible, it would be nice to go SOBO.
Well, it's funny that you should mention this. Of all the climbs on the AT, South Kinsman sticks out in my mind as one of the top 3 toughest ones (for me at least). So yeah, I agree with what you have heard. It's basically a 2000' very hard rock scramble. So if you don't want to go down that, then NOBO is the way to go.
Gambit McCrae
11-06-2019, 09:42
Well, it's funny that you should mention this. Of all the climbs on the AT, South Kinsman sticks out in my mind as one of the top 3 toughest ones (for me at least). So yeah, I agree with what you have heard. It's basically a 2000' very hard rock scramble. So if you don't want to go down that, then NOBO is the way to go.
As I just did SK in September it is pretty fresh in my brain. I wouldn't say that Kinsman to Franconia was one of my favorite days on trail? But it was a GOOD day. We had great weather and despite me taking a bad fall cracking my elbow ontop of wolf, the day went smooth.
The climb up South Kinsman....I didnt mind it, but it is indeed straight up. like a ladder of rock(not a rebar ladder) pretty much from the boggy pond area to the top.
peakbagger
11-06-2019, 14:33
That boggy area usually has a nice crop of pitcher plants. They are carnivorous
Crushed Grapes
11-06-2019, 15:06
I Did Hanover to Franconia starting sept 1st.
I passed you at some point then. I left Franconia Notch SOBO Sept 1st to head towards HF to finish my flip flop thru.
Going Southbound over the Kinsmans and Moosilauke if you have a full pack is the way to do it, IMO.
Crushed Grapes
11-06-2019, 15:10
Washington to Madison and down the Valley way isn't an easy day either. Just hope your not fighting the wind, that can really wear you down.
Lakes of the Clouds Hut to Osgood tentsite was without a doubt one of my hardest days on trail this trip. Mt. Madison is a cruel beast. To say I was humbled is an understatement...
Gambit McCrae
11-06-2019, 15:17
I passed you at some point then. I left Franconia Notch SOBO Sept 1st to head towards HF to finish my flip flop thru.
Going Southbound over the Kinsmans and Moosilauke if you have a full pack is the way to do it, IMO.
I came down the north side of moos in a thunderstorm, not one of my smartest moves going over moos on a thunderstorm day...
illabelle
11-06-2019, 17:09
That boggy area usually has a nice crop of pitcher plants. They are carnivorous
I remember seeing those somewhere else in a high elevation bog. I'm glad they're too small to eat hikers! :)
illabelle
11-06-2019, 17:13
Lakes of the Clouds Hut to Osgood tentsite was without a doubt one of my hardest days on trail this trip. Mt. Madison is a cruel beast. To say I was humbled is an understatement...
The day we climbed Madison (SOBO) the winds were fierce! The croo at Madison Hut advised in the strongest terms that we NOT proceed to Lakes the next day because the forecast was no better, winds at 75 mph or more. So we slid down Valley Way, took a cab, and hauled our butts up Ammonusuc Ravine. Wow that thing was steep! And that, folks, is why we need to fill in the tiny little section between Lakes and Madison. Nice thing about this trip is that we have the flexibility to adjust the schedule a bit if weather is threatening. All I wanna do is finish the AT, I don't wanna die!
illabelle
11-06-2019, 17:15
I came down the north side of moos in a thunderstorm, not one of my smartest moves going over moos on a thunderstorm day...
Glad you made it in one piece! We going SOBO over that beast, hit the steep stuff early in the day, then breathe a sigh of relief.
Starchild
11-06-2019, 19:54
I slacked that, got out at sunset and had to hitch in the dark. In desperation in Kingsman Notch I was trying to hitch either direction. Was picked up by a local police officer who took me to Ched's place. All went well but yes it took longer than expected.
I had heard that S Kinsman was so steep it was better/safer to go up than down. If it's not so terrible, it would be nice to go SOBO.
I went SOBO this section this October on a cold rainy day. It sucked.
The hike from Franconia to south Kinsman was nice and nice views. The climb down from south Kinsman took all my energy and after camping a few miles past Eliza Brook Shelter I called my ride to pick me up at the notch the next day instead of continuing over Moosilauke.
I also heard the moose near Eliza Brook and the power lines. Never got a chance to see it. I was getting so cold I was just looking for a camp spot.
Lakes of the Clouds Hut to Osgood tentsite was without a doubt one of my hardest days on trail this trip. Mt. Madison is a cruel beast. To say I was humbled is an understatement...
And once you get over Madison there’s that long stretch of walking over rock edges, kinda like walking on open floor joists. If not careful you can miss the top of the rock and catch your leg/foot.
Several of the people I hiked with really got banged up in that section. Bruised ribs, sprained ankles....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
illabelle
11-07-2019, 06:27
Discussed all of the above with my husband last night. I think we'll probably try to slack. But that's contingent on how well we do with conditioning over the next several months.
Thanks, y'all, for your input. Real helpful!
Slo-go'en
11-07-2019, 10:11
I also need to do that section. Glencliff to Franconia notch is one of my last missing sections. Plus some of the last 4K's I need are on that stretch.
It's about time I finished NH. I just highlighted all the White mountain trails I've hiked and there is a big void to the west of Franconia Notch and the south side of the Kanc. Next summer I think I'll try to finish up my 4K's (15 to go) and do some more red lining. Most of the trails I haven't done are in the more remote wilderness areas.
ldsailor
11-07-2019, 11:29
I had heard that S Kinsman was so steep it was better/safer to go up than down. If it's not so terrible, it would be nice to go SOBO.
I definitely would not want to go down that boulder scramble.
steve_zavocki
11-07-2019, 14:16
I definitely would not want to go down that boulder scramble.
I would disagree and say northbound is a little better. The climb down S Kinsman is narrow and has many medium sized boulders. If decending, you can take them one at a time slowly. The rocks that scare me are the wide open bedrock that can be slick when wet. There is some of this going down North Kinsman. Either way will be hard, but I wouldn't say one direction is substantially worse than the other unlike say going over Moosilauke.
Gambit McCrae
11-07-2019, 15:54
I would disagree and say northbound is a little better. The climb down S Kinsman is narrow and has many medium sized boulders. If decending, you can take them one at a time slowly. The rocks that scare me are the wide open bedrock that can be slick when wet. There is some of this going down North Kinsman. Either way will be hard, but I wouldn't say one direction is substantially worse than the other unlike say going over Moosilauke.
I agree. Its the long slanted rocks that got me. I butt scooted more from mt moose to franconia notch then on the entire rest of the AT
illabelle
11-07-2019, 16:19
I agree. Its the long slanted rocks that got me. I butt scooted more from mt moose to franconia notch then on the entire rest of the AT
Funny. Gambit, I remember in a thread a few years back where you asked why not wear crocks to hike in because you said they were comfortable. At the time, you hadn't been to NH/ME, but I had had a taste of them. I tried to describe the rock slabs and discouraged the crocks.
Now you see, don't you? I mean, you really see! You are so very dependent on the grip of your shoe tread to get up or down those slabs. There's nothing to hold on to, not much to set the tip of your pole into. If you slip going up, you land on your nose. Slip going down, and you get to slide on your back with your head bouncing on the rocks.
Crocks!!! Hahahahaha!
:):D:)
Gambit McCrae
11-07-2019, 17:04
Funny. Gambit, I remember in a thread a few years back where you asked why not wear crocks to hike in because you said they were comfortable. At the time, you hadn't been to NH/ME, but I had had a taste of them. I tried to describe the rock slabs and discouraged the crocks.
Now you see, don't you? I mean, you really see! You are so very dependent on the grip of your shoe tread to get up or down those slabs. There's nothing to hold on to, not much to set the tip of your pole into. If you slip going up, you land on your nose. Slip going down, and you get to slide on your back with your head bouncing on the rocks.
Crocks!!! Hahahahaha!
:):D:)
Hey now I love those crocs and ended up walking several hundred miles in them until I found altras lol but no I would not dream of traversing NH ME in them.
Slo-go'en
11-07-2019, 20:17
The rocks that scare me are the wide open bedrock that can be slick when wet. There is some of this going down North Kinsman.
The steep, open ledges can be intimidating, especially when wet and going down. There is usually a herd path around the worst of them, or at least go along the edges so you can grab onto roots and tree branches. If no other option, sit down and slide on your butt. I've done a lot of that on White Mountain trails.
QuietStorm
11-08-2019, 13:15
The steep, open ledges can be intimidating, especially when wet and going down. There is usually a herd path around the worst of them, or at least go along the edges so you can grab onto roots and tree branches. If no other option, sit down and slide on your butt. I've done a lot of that on White Mountain trails.
I've used those herd paths from time to time--going down from the Baldpates, up Mahoosuc Arm, and other steep descents and ascents--and usually when the rock was wet. If I could go down the rock I did. I recently watched a video by Craig "Hawk" Mains, where he criticizes hikers who do that and stated if you don't want to take the risk of going down the middle of the trail, don't hike the AT. I disagree, but I wonder what others think.
illabelle
11-08-2019, 14:13
I've used those herd paths from time to time--going down from the Baldpates, up Mahoosuc Arm, and other steep descents and ascents--and usually when the rock was wet. If I could go down the rock I did. I recently watched a video by Craig "Hawk" Mains, where he criticizes hikers who do that and stated if you don't want to take the risk of going down the middle of the trail, don't hike the AT. I disagree, but I wonder what others think.
A multitude of hikers avoiding the middle of the trail in favor of the safer edges results in widening and degrading the trail. This can be avoided by routing, designing, and building trails that can handle the traffic without subjecting users to high risk maneuvers.
I don't think we should ask hikers to risk their lives to climb a mountain. In some areas it appears those who laid out the trail took some shortcuts: Cover a rock in paint and roll it off the mountain. Every tree it hits is a blaze. Done!* Once the trail is worn down to bedrock, it's "paved" and no further maintenance is needed. :rolleyes:
I don't mind that the trail is hard. I don't even mind that some risk is involved. But it bothers me when the trail is deeply eroded like a permanently open wound. It doesn't have to be that way. Go around cliffs. Build switchbacks, bridges, and stairs.
Please forgive my exaggeration. Many places on the trail show evidence of incredible labor-intensive back-breaking work, and I am truly grateful! That doesn't take away from the point I'm making.
A multitude of hikers avoiding the middle of the trail in favor of the safer edges results in widening and degrading the trail. This can be avoided by routing, designing, and building trails that can handle the traffic without subjecting users to high risk maneuvers.
I don't think we should ask hikers to risk their lives to climb a mountain. In some areas it appears those who laid out the trail took some shortcuts: Cover a rock in paint and roll it off the mountain. Every tree it hits is a blaze. Done!* Once the trail is worn down to bedrock, it's "paved" and no further maintenance is needed. :rolleyes:
I don't mind that the trail is hard. I don't even mind that some risk is involved. But it bothers me when the trail is deeply eroded like a permanently open wound. It doesn't have to be that way. Go around cliffs. Build switchbacks, bridges, and stairs.
Well said!
Not sure who Chris "Hawk" Mains is, but I would argue that the A.T. is a hiking trail, not a climbing route. When some of these steep trails were first laid out, there were roots and vegetation over the thin soils on top of the steep, slick bare rock faces in question. They were passable. Over time traffic has turned it into what we have today. The suggestion that hikers should risk injury to preserve a "trail" that was inadequately constructed for the foot traffic it now carries is ludicrous.
Certainly, some sections of the A.T. are far more difficult to maintain than other parts. Volunteers carry out most, if not all trail maintenance and deserve big thanks. It is my understanding that they are handcuffed to some extent regarding what they can do, i.e., permission must be granted before certain changes can be made; "engineering" has to be carried out before funds can be released for even the most basic change in a route. That is part of dealing with the complex bureaucracy that comprises the A.T. oversight. Of course, without this hierarchy we would not even have an A.T. Still, there is room for improvement.
The A.T. has widely varying levels of trail construction/maintenance. Some of the states with the most challenging terrain have the poorest maintenance ... even blazing is sketchy. No need to mention any names. Anyone who has hiked the A.T. knows.
Slo-go'en
11-08-2019, 18:23
I don't mind that the trail is hard. I don't even mind that some risk is involved. But it bothers me when the trail is deeply eroded like a permanently open wound. It doesn't have to be that way. Go around cliffs. Build switchbacks, bridges, and stairs.
Please forgive my exaggeration. Many places on the trail show evidence of incredible labor-intensive back-breaking work, and I am truly grateful! That doesn't take away from the point I'm making.
If you take a close look, you'll see there really isn't any other option. That's just the nature of these mountains and how the glaciers scored them and left behind a lot of really big rocks in inconvenient places.
peakbagger
11-08-2019, 19:44
In many cases in the whites of NH the trails were built long ago and the cost in time and resources makes it very difficult to do a reroute. Look a the time and effort BSP has spent on the Hunt trail (AT) Abol and Dudley (all approach routes to Katahdin). 2/3rds of Abol took 3 years by using a completely new trail route and reportedly the new reroute is already in need of rebuilding. Dudley has been two years and counting and Hunt has been under rerouting and construction for 30 plus years. Probably the "king" of trail reconstructions in Maine is the east side of White Cap which was just finished after around 20 years of continuous work every summer. The reality is all the maintaining clubs can do is do triage on the worst of the worst.
The soils and weather conditions are far more difficult to deal with up north than down south. If the rebuild is too heavy handed like blasting or cutting steps in stone the trail crews get complaints that they destroying nature. Folks are drawn to Maine and the whites for the views and extreme terrain, there are plenty of options to bypass the extreme sections but then the hikers miss the above treeline sections. In the Catskills the popular Devils Path is currently closed indefinitely as the DEC installed steel bars in a ledge that was difficult for some to cross. Some folks objected to the bars being installed and someone took it upon themselves to remove two of the bars so the DEC has indefinitely closed the trail.
illabelle
11-08-2019, 21:06
...Some folks objected to the bars being installed and someone took it upon themselves to remove two of the bars so the DEC has indefinitely closed the trail.
Wow, hard to believe how crazy some people are.
I'm not going to pretend I know about the difficulties of trail building in your area. Still, I do think it's a shame that so many trails are deeply eroded. I wish that were not the case.
Slo-go'en
11-08-2019, 22:24
Wow, hard to believe how crazy some people are.
I'm not going to pretend I know about the difficulties of trail building in your area. Still, I do think it's a shame that so many trails are deeply eroded. I wish that were not the case.
Given the steep trails and thin soil, it's impossible to avoid. That and some of these trails have been in the same place for over a 100 years. If it's raining and your not walking in a stream, your not on the trail.
ldsailor
11-09-2019, 12:51
I would disagree and say northbound is a little better.
I think I got lost somewhere in the conversation. Starting from Kinsman Notch to Franconia Notch is northbound and after the Eliza Brook Shelter there is a nearly 2,000 foot ascent to South Kinsman's summit. That is the climb to which I was referring (ie. not wanting to go down on a southbound hike). The hike from Kinsman Notch to the Eliza Brook Shelter was not bad at all.
Slo-go'en
11-09-2019, 17:45
Then you come across something like this and think "how the heck am I suppose to get across that?", then look up and see the rope and say "thank you". Pretty much wouldn't have been possible without the rope.
This is on a blue blaze which eventually connects to the AT just before it leaves NH.
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illabelle
11-09-2019, 19:36
Then you come across something like this and think "how the heck am I suppose to get across that?", then look up and see the rope and say "thank you". Pretty much wouldn't have been possible without the rope.
This is on a blue blaze which eventually connects to the AT just before it leaves NH.
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Pictures never do justice to the reality. Looks wet and slick, maybe a little bit of slope? Hard to tell from the picture, but I'll take your word for it. I've been a few places where a well-placed rope or cable made all the difference between safe and unsafe.
QuietStorm
11-09-2019, 20:35
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A rope leading to a ladder. One of my favorites.
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A rope leading to a ladder. One of my favorites.
I believe I just did this in July, north of Grafton Notch and Bald Plate in Southern Maine.
I think I saw the rope posted by Slo on a day Hike looping up to the Gentian Pond shelter. Giant Falls Trail, perhaps.
Not needed, and possibly the product of some scouts having fun playing “technical”. I regret not removing the litter.
Hikingjim
11-10-2019, 03:37
Sounds like the 16 mile day may be a bad idea.
Bringing the packs with only a few meals required shouldn't be too burdensome. I would think that would be much more enjoyable
illabelle
11-10-2019, 05:28
Sounds like the 16 mile day may be a bad idea.
Bringing the packs with only a few meals required shouldn't be too burdensome. I would think that would be much more enjoyable
I think either choice is going to be seriously tough.
Uh... uh... I mean "enjoyable."
Well said!
Not sure who Chris "Hawk" Mains is, but I would argue that the A.T. is a hiking trail, not a climbing route. When some of these steep trails were first laid out, there were roots and vegetation over the thin soils on top of the steep, slick bare rock faces in question. They were passable. Over time traffic has turned it into what we have today. The suggestion that hikers should risk injury to preserve a "trail" that was inadequately constructed for the foot traffic it now carries is ludicrous.
Certainly, some sections of the A.T. are far more difficult to maintain than other parts. Volunteers carry out most, if not all trail maintenance and deserve big thanks. It is my understanding that they are handcuffed to some extent regarding what they can do, i.e., permission must be granted before certain changes can be made; "engineering" has to be carried out before funds can be released for even the most basic change in a route. That is part of dealing with the complex bureaucracy that comprises the A.T. oversight. Of course, without this hierarchy we would not even have an A.T. Still, there is room for improvement.
The A.T. has widely varying levels of trail construction/maintenance. Some of the states with the most challenging terrain have the poorest maintenance ... even blazing is sketchy. No need to mention any names. Anyone who has hiked the A.T. knows.
When much of the original trail was built the emphasis was on developing a continuous path and not sustainability. The ATC has been working to rebuild trails that will last into the future. If you have never worked building trail you probably do not have an idea how hard this is and long it takes. Trail degradation does not occur just on the steep, rocky sections. Many flat, wet areas are damaged by hikers straying off the treadway to avoid getting muddy boots. The best thing hikers can do is to stick to the middle of the trail.
Crushed Grapes
11-10-2019, 21:38
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A rope leading to a ladder. One of my favorites.
Did this section in August in a thunderstorm. Probably the most scared I was on the trail aside from running across the Roan Balds in sleet and hail
I backpacked the section from Franconia to Kinsman Notch sobo. I didnt think it was particularly onerous. Top mile of South Kinsman is really steep. I'm pretty sure I butt slid down a lot of it, but before Eliza Brook, it mellowed out quite a bit. We went from Kinsman pond shelter in about 10 hours or so. I do remember seeing the exhausted nobos and being thankful I wasn't climbing up from that side. It's comparable to the ascent from Garfield hut up South Twin.
peakbagger
11-11-2019, 08:13
I did 2/3rds of the AT stretch one day as a day hike but I went up the North Kinsman trail from Easton instead of down to the notch. Its about on mile shorter but has the most of the terrain that many folks find "interesting" including South Kinsman. I spotted a bike at Kinsman Notch then drove back to Easton and headed out hiking up North Kinsman. At the end of the hike I rode my bike back along RT 116 to my car. It was long day but not a killer (except for the bike ride on hot day).
Cascade Brook trail from Lonesome Lake to the Notch is an old logging road bed, easy walking.
illabelle
11-11-2019, 09:44
I backpacked the section from Franconia to Kinsman Notch sobo. I didnt think it was particularly onerous. Top mile of South Kinsman is really steep. I'm pretty sure I butt slid down a lot of it, but before Eliza Brook, it mellowed out quite a bit. We went from Kinsman pond shelter in about 10 hours or so. I do remember seeing the exhausted nobos and being thankful I wasn't climbing up from that side. It's comparable to the ascent from Garfield hut up South Twin.
I remember that stretch. We went SOBO from ST to Garfield, and it seemed like it was straight down. We carefully worked our way down, taking care with our footing and joints, and feeling sorry for those who were climbing up.
Somewhere in the middle of the descent we were passed by a young man who was quickly hopping down from rock to rock with the confidence of a goat. We thought he was kinda crazy. It was crazy to see.
Learned later that he was part of the hut croo, and I guess he climbed up and down ST often (probably showing off to fat struggling section hikers like us).
Slo-go'en
11-11-2019, 10:08
Personally, I prefer to go up especially steep sections then go down them. Yep, the Garfield ridge has some interesting sections.