Ground cover / closed cell foam pad needed for winter hiking?

[SkeeterPee]

Other times I have went hiking in November I have taken a zlite foam pad in addition to an inflatable mattress pad. Also I have taken a Tyvek ground sheet for used under my solong 6 tent.

I am starting my through hike on Feb 11th so colder than late November in PA. I have my pack weight at 28.6 lbs plus food and water. I could loose another 14.5 oz if I leave the zlite and 5.8 oz if I leave the Tyvek ground cover. I have the Big Agnes Q-Core SLX Sleeping Pad. I don't see an R value for it, but is says it is good down to 32F. zlite has a 2.5 R value.

I know winter camping it is good to have the added R value and also if you air mattress breaks, you have something under you if you use both. But 14 oz extra is a lot to carry for a couple months. If I do take it, I would send it home eventually.

Likewise how important is the ground cover?

Would you keep both or leave one or both behind?

[fastfoxengineering]

You could probably lighten it up a bit with polycro and a GG 1/8th pad.

If it were me. For a February 11th start. I'd pack a GG 1/8th pad and my NeoAir Xtherm.

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[SkeeterPee]

You could probably lighten it up a bit with polycro and a GG 1/8th pad.

If it were me. For a February 11th start. I'd pack a GG 1/8th pad and my NeoAir Xtherm.

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My mattress is only rated at 32 degrees, no R value given, but that may be about a R3.5 based on one chart I found. the GG 1/8 adds about .5 a xlite pad adds 2.6 so that might be better to keep what I have. I see your pad is 5.7 by itself.

[CalebJ]

You could cut the closed cell pad to a shorter length. Or consider a lighter primary pad and a 1/8 pad. The big advantage of carrying two pads, particularly if one is not inflatable is having a get out of jail free card that's virtually indestructible. An Xlite, xtherm, synmat hyperlite,etc could save you a decent but of weight.

Also consider polycro over tyvek for another few ounces and very little cost.

[garlic08]

I haven't carried a ground sheet in 15 years, never on a thru-hike--that should be easy to leave at home. In winter I use a 3/4 length Z-rest and a full length piece of 20" wide Reflectix, total weight about 12 oz. If I'm not going to be camping on snow, I don't bring the Reflectix. In summer the Z-rest gets cut down to six sections, shoulder-to-hip length.

[Deadeye]

I don't bother with a footprint for my tent - by the time the floor wears out, I'm in the market for a new tent anyhow.

I do use a z-rest under my inflatable year-round for a bunch of reasons: it's a nice pad for lunch breaks, it adds years to my inflatable, it gives me a reasonably comfortable night in the event the inflatable leaks overnight, it adds warmth when it's cold, etc.

I vary my pad setup with the seasons, but I always have at least 6 sections of the z-rest with me. Like Garlic, I add some Reflectix in deep winter.

[Tipi Walter]

I just got back from an 18 day Nov/December trip and my ground cloth worked great on the trip as I use it inside the tent and it keeps condensated wetness between the ground cloth and the tent floor---and not between your sleeping pad/gear and the floor. If you mark one side of the ground cloth as "UP" then the next time you set up camp you can always place the wet side to the floor.

In addition, a ground cloth tarp can be used to wrap around your inflatable pad to keep it from getting punctured on hellish thicket trails with brambles and sawbriars everywhere.

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Here's the 10mil tarp cut to size to fit inside my tent. The white color really helps in locating things on the floor. And the Inside technique has advantages over placing your ground cloth outside and under the tent.

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Here's my Trail Pro 4R inflatable pad wrapped with the ground cloth to protect it from jabs on a terrible trail.

[SkeeterPee]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I ordered the 1/8 pad and hope I get some code weather to test it. If I make that change and polycro change it would save about a pound. I just need to test it out.

[pure_mahem]

I by no means think my idea is original but I plan on making a rain skirt/kilt, whichever term you're comfortable with, that doubles as my ground cloth. I figure at least it would be multipurpose and not just a unitasker. Thank You Alton Brown for putting that bit of wisdom in my head, lol:banana

[Time Zone]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I ordered the 1/8 pad and hope I get some code weather to test it. If I make that change and polycro change it would save about a pound. I just need to test it out.
Yep, test it out first. You may find that going too light on pad insulation hurts your sleep quality, which will hurt your hiking energy, which will hurt your adventure as a whole. It's very common for thru hikers to swap out gear during a hike, so I wouldn't think twice about taking what you need to stay warm and sleep well. You can ship it back, sell it, or give it away when you no longer need it.

[colorado_rob]

Just another data point... After some calculations* and real-use experimentation, I settled on a combo of 1/4 and 1/8" for my supplemental R-total of my sleeping pad system, saved a couple of ounces this way. I, too, bought the 1/8" pad, deemed it not enough for my torso, OK for my legs. I had some 1/4" pad laying around, but I don't like the weight penalty of using 1/4" for the whole length. My inflatable has an R value of 3.2 (as advertised) and that is a bit low for deep winter use, the combo I use has about R4.5 for torso, a bit under 4 for legs/feet.

I know, gram counting, but I enjoy it, trimming here and there, getting to minimum weight still with full comfort.

* The Calculations, a summary: I (we, actually, my wife loves it), do a lot of winter backpacking, and as most of us know, one's sleeping pad R value is of prime importance, but running some heat transfer numbers, I found that there is a steep diminishing of returns after about R4-5 or so, roughly, depending on conditions. This means any extra ounces added for more R (above R=4 - 5) in your pad, would be better spent as ounces of down in your sleeping bag. I happened to lose the Excel sheet that I did this with by sloppy HD backup discipline, but I could recreate if I wanted to.

[SkeeterPee]

Just another data point... After some calculations* and real-use experimentation, I settled on a combo of 1/4 and 1/8" for my supplemental R-total of my sleeping pad system, saved a couple of ounces this way. I, too, bought the 1/8" pad, deemed it not enough for my torso, OK for my legs. I had some 1/4" pad laying around, but I don't like the weight penalty of using 1/4" for the whole length. My inflatable has an R value of 3.2 (as advertised) and that is a bit low for deep winter use, the combo I use has about R4.5 for torso, a bit under 4 for legs/feet.

I know, gram counting, but I enjoy it, trimming here and there, getting to minimum weight still with full comfort.

* The Calculations, a summary: I (we, actually, my wife loves it), do a lot of winter backpacking, and as most of us know, one's sleeping pad R value is of prime importance, but running some heat transfer numbers, I found that there is a steep diminishing of returns after about R4-5 or so, roughly, depending on conditions. This means any extra ounces added for more R (above R=4 - 5) in your pad, would be better spent as ounces of down in your sleeping bag. I happened to lose the Excel sheet that I did this with by sloppy HD backup discipline, but I could recreate if I wanted to.
Thanks for the recommendation. so did you use the full length of the 1/8 and the piece of the 1/4 or did you have 2 pieces? did you tape them together?

[colorado_rob]

Thanks for the recommendation. so did you use the full length of the 1/8 and the piece of the 1/4 or did you have 2 pieces? did you tape them together? I tape them together, just plain, but sticky, duct tape, overlapping the 1/8 over the 1/4 slightly, then taping both sides. It has held up fine. Yeah, the tape adds a couple grams....

[pure_mahem]

Test it before you go. It would suck end up with pounds of misery just because you saved a few ounces of carry.

[saltysack]

Just get a xtherm for cold weather and be done...had mine a few years and hasn’t let me down....


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[CalebJ]

Just get a xtherm for cold weather and be done...had mine a few years and hasn’t let me down....


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He's got an inflatable pad. This is about a backup foam pad.

[SkeeterPee]

Just get a xtherm for cold weather and be done...had mine a few years and hasn’t let me down....


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Yes I have a BA Q Core SLX pad, I got because it is very comfortable with 4.25 inch thickness, but thicker is not warmer I guess. I have a neo air xlite also with a R-value of 3.2 so it may be slightly warmer than the Q Core, but a little less comfortable. with either I think I would need the zlite pad underneath in February. Xtherm with a 1/8 pad might work, but I don't have one of an xtherm. I could go with the zlite pad until it warms up and then switch to an 1/8th pad to save 11.5 oz.

[Hikingjim]

Yes I have a BA Q Core SLX pad, I got because it is very comfortable with 4.25 inch thickness, but thicker is not warmer I guess. I have a neo air xlite also with a R-value of 3.2 so it may be slightly warmer than the Q Core, but a little less comfortable. with either I think I would need the zlite pad underneath in February. Xtherm with a 1/8 pad might work, but I don't have one of an xtherm. I could go with the zlite pad until it warms up and then switch to an 1/8th pad to save 11.5 oz.
I don't think you will want to use the xlite AND the zlite to start. That's a bit overkill
At most, if you think the 1/8 won't be enough, you could do xlite & something similar to this (3/8"): https://www.mec.ca/en/product/4003-969/Blue-Foam-Regular-Sleeping-Pad
About 8 oz in weight (or a couple ounce more for the longer version), and you could cut some of it off if it was warming up a bit and/or you wanted a sit pad.
I have the long version that I use in winter, combined with 3.3 r value mat, and it's been adequate a bit above 0f

[SkeeterPee]

You got me looking at the xtherm. it appears you can only get xtherm from thermarest site at $215. But there is an xtherm max that other places sell. it is 2 oz heavier, but similar 5.7 r value rating and much cheaper at 142 or less. Moosejaw says it a 5.7, but theremarest says it is 6.9 r value. Does anyone know about the xtherm max?

[colorado_rob]

You got me looking at the xtherm. it appears you can only get xtherm from thermarest site at $215. But there is an xtherm max that other places sell. it is 2 oz heavier, but similar 5.7 r value rating and much cheaper at 142 or less. Moosejaw says it a 5.7, but theremarest says it is 6.9 r value. Does anyone know about the xtherm max? Just a quick observation: If you get an inflatable pad that used alone satisfies your insulation needs, remember that you now lose you "backup" insulator, however modest it is (the closed cell foam) should you have a significant leak in your inflatable. I sure like the redundancy of have an R1.5 closed cell with an R3.2 inflatable.

As noted below, whatever you do end up with, test it out before going too far afield, if you can. It's also really nice to have the CCF pad as a sit-pad in the winter, for around camp or if taking a break on trail. Nothing will chill you faster than sitting on the cold ground or snow while making dinner or whatever around camp.

[CalebJ]

Just a quick observation: If you get an inflatable pad that used alone satisfies your insulation needs, remember that you now lose you "backup" insulator, however modest it is (the closed cell foam) should you have a significant leak in your inflatable. I sure like the redundancy of have an R1.5 closed cell with an R3.2 inflatable.

As noted below, whatever you do end up with, test it out before going too far afield, if you can. It's also really nice to have the CCF pad as a sit-pad in the winter, for around camp or if taking a break on trail. Nothing will chill you faster than sitting on the cold ground or snow while making dinner or whatever around camp.
Agreed - no matter how warm your inflatable pad is, it's R value goes to basically zero if it can't hold air. Even a 1/8" pad helps significantly compared to laying directly on the ground, and as you noted - it has other benefits like functioning as a sit pad.

[Tipi Walter]

Agreed - no matter how warm your inflatable pad is, it's R value goes to basically zero if it can't hold air. Even a 1/8" pad helps significantly compared to laying directly on the ground, and as you noted - it has other benefits like functioning as a sit pad.

When an inflatable pad dies on a winter trip, well, get ready for some howling. My Ridgerest Solar pad is rated at 3.5R and when doubled up offers 7R for stand alone warmth---if the inflatable dies. It won't be comfy but it'll keep me warm. Sadly Thermarest in their pad model shuffle dance discontinued the highest rated Rvalue pad they sold---the Solar.

One solution to a dead inflatable pad happening during a trip is to carry a spare (and so far never used) smallest NeoAir pad they make---it's tiny and offers inflatable comfort when in combo with the Solar pad---and used just to get you to the end of the trip.

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[Time Zone]

What you wrote:
Sadly Thermarest in their pad model shuffle dance discontinued the highest rated Rvalue pad they sold---the Solar.

What I read:
"Time Zone, you now have a collector's item!" :D

It's interesting that you can have a Ridgerest classic (regular length) that rolls up to say 7.6" diameter (assumes 1" center hole), but you can roll two of them up consecutively into a larger-but-not-doubled 10.75" diameter cylinder.

https://handymath.com/cgi-bin/roll4.cgi

A moment's reflection reveals why this is so, but it's still kind of cool from a packing perspective, if you need/want double CCF. OTOH you can go Space Shuttle and pack them individually. Here are the booster rockets:

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That's the collector's item on the right - these two combined get me an R-value over 6.

I'm a bit of an iconoclast - I prefer CCF. I also prefer firm mattresses at home, and that probably explains it. I also like the quiet and "can't deflate" quality of CCF. Much peace of mind. Got a thorn in one I carried the other day. Simply removed it. No harm done.

[saltysack]

Yes I have a BA Q Core SLX pad, I got because it is very comfortable with 4.25 inch thickness, but thicker is not warmer I guess. I have a neo air xlite also with a R-value of 3.2 so it may be slightly warmer than the Q Core, but a little less comfortable. with either I think I would need the zlite pad underneath in February. Xtherm with a 1/8 pad might work, but I don't have one of an xtherm. I could go with the zlite pad until it warms up and then switch to an 1/8th pad to save 11.5 oz.

How about reflectix? I used to use that on top of xlite before I bought the xtherm for cold temps...seemed to work fine I just hated having crap strapped to outside of my pack.


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[QiWiz]

Other times I have went hiking in November I have taken a zlite foam pad in addition to an inflatable mattress pad. Also I have taken a Tyvek ground sheet for used under my solong 6 tent.
I am starting my through hike on Feb 11th so colder than late November in PA. Would you keep both or leave one or both behind?
I would not take the Tyvek and I would take a NeoAir Xtherm as an inflatable pad without the zlite until I got warm enough to go to an even lighter inflatable. If you have a regular NeoAir, I would add the zlite until maybe April.

[SkeeterPee]

How about reflectix? I used to use that on top of xlite before I bought the xtherm for cold temps...seemed to work fine I just hated having crap strapped to outside of my pack.


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I do have reflectix so I can try that out. if I used a full pad length of reflectix this would be about 10 oz. if I did a 3 ft piece it would cover the torso and be 5.4 oz. I think it's r value would be about 1 from what I read. a GG 1/8 is only 2.5 oz so adding that below the inflatable and the reflectix above would be 8 oz vs the zlite being 14 oz. so that would be 6 oz savings if warm enough,

Though I just noticed reflectix is 24 inches wide and I could probably use only 19 or 20 inches wide? so that would only be 4 1/4 for reflectix and 2.5 for the 1/8 pad so 6.75 oz total. Worth trying out.