View Full Version : Train Derailed on AT footbridge in Harpers Ferry
A trail derailed at 3am this morning taking out the AT footbridge in Harpers Ferry
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10100815802841869&set=gm.2609861659091064&type=3&theater
News article, but not much info. Happened at 3am this morning. No injuries. Looking at the pictures posted on Facebook it looks like the footbridge will be closed for quite some time. https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/virginia/csx-freight-train-derails-near-harpers-ferry-west-virginia/65-cde5e316-f18c-42e4-963b-25378fe8c425
Slo-go'en
12-21-2019, 09:36
Great. It will be quite a detour to get around that.
lucky luke
12-21-2019, 09:52
does anyone have a working link? both of those posted are dead....
Both links work for me. The one is a Facebook post from the Appalachian Trail Section Hiker page the other is from WUSA channel 9.
Great. It will be quite a detour to get around that.
I remember crossing the 340 bridge years ago (70's) but I can't recall how we got off the bridge and back down to the AT. I don't recall even hiking on the C&O back in those days. I guess you'd have to cross the 340 bridge into MD and get down to Sandy Hook Rd. You can defiantly get to the AT from Sandy Hook by crossing the Canal and tracks by the utility building just downstream from the bridge. I go that way to get to the HF Hostel on Sandy Hook Rd.
Kaptainkriz
12-21-2019, 10:19
Twitter feed with some good photos: https://twitter.com/vbagate/status/1208367541976027137
Strategic
12-21-2019, 11:41
The pictures don't actually look too bad (except for the train cars in the river.) A small section of the footbridge near the West Virginia side is out, but it should be relatively easy to restore, since the main train bridge it's attached to seems to be intact. It will be closed for a while, but I suspect it will be reopened by the time most thruhikers hit the area in 2020. Thank goodness this all happened at 3am when no one was out there.
LazyLightning
12-21-2019, 12:53
I agree on it being repaired fairly soon. No main supports or piers into the water were compromised, the pedestrian bridge is held up by angled supports to the train bridge. It's also used by way more tourists then thru hikers and is an attraction so I imagine they'd want to get on that pretty quick.
colorado_rob
12-21-2019, 13:02
Just out of curiosity, if they do NOT get it fixed by this spring, what would be an alternative? Ahhh, I may see it, the hike back over the Shenandoah River, walk parallel to US340 east, then over the Sandy hook bridge? Can pedestrians cross that one?
Just out of curiosity, if they do NOT get it fixed by this spring, what would be an alternative? Ahhh, I may see it, the hike back over the Shenandoah River, walk parallel to US340 east, then over the Sandy hook bridge? Can pedestrians cross that one?
Not 100% sure, but I think that was the route when I walked by in 1983.
If my memory is correct the AT used to follow the Loudoun Heights trail and then cross the 340 bridge into Sandy Hook. The trail was relocated into Harpers Ferry about 35 years ago I think.
Mother Natures Son
12-22-2019, 08:19
Could anyone who is local, supply us with close ups of the AT bridge? (When you can do so safely.) BTW, how do they clear up a mess like this? Lots of cranes or something else?
mateozzz
12-22-2019, 10:01
I'm sure some enterprising individual will offer a boat ride for a small fee...
When this bridge was being repaired this year during my thru the ATC had a shuttle going from one side to the other, and there was not really a problem moving on. As noted, there are other routes to the trail around this section, but the shuttle meant that you could stay on the current AT route without delay.
Renais
Furlough
12-22-2019, 11:25
From the ATC Website:
Just before 4 a.m. on Dec. 21, 2019, a CSX train derailed from the bridge crossing the Potomac River at Harpers Ferry. There were no injuries or hazardous materials involved in the derailment. CSX is fielding calls about this incident by phone at 1.800.232.0144.
The derailment affects access to parts of Harpers Ferry National Historical Park, Chesapeake & Ohio National Historical Park, and the Appalachian National Scenic Trail (A.T.). The following information details closures and impacts on visitor access.
[*=left]The footbridge attached to the CSX bridge is indefinitely closed.
[*=left]Park users will be unable to cross between Harpers Ferry and C&O Canal towpath.
[*=left]Park users will be unable to cross from Harpers Ferry to the Maryland Heights trail.
[*=left]A.T. hikers with immediate need for transport between Harpers Ferry, West Virginia and Weverton Road, Maryland should arrange for shuttles. Hikers are not advised to walk on Highway 340 to cross into Maryland, as this roadway has narrow shoulders and heavy traffic. Information about available transportation options can be found at appalachiantrail.org/transportation (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/transportation).
Other areas of Harpers Ferry National Historical Park, such as The Point and John’s Brown Fort, are closed temporarily because of proximity to the derailment. These areas will reopen once cleanup and assessment are complete.
We will update appalachiantrail.org/updates (http://appalachiantrail.org/updates) as more information becomes available.
Furlough
This sucks what a shame. Highway 340 is a very dangerous road indeed do not attempt.
BlackCloud
12-22-2019, 12:48
https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/80591233_10157208159190735_526726040333058048_o.jp g?_nc_cat=104&_nc_oc=AQnU71tDEhSyFjDrOzGze0c5DngSsRAH4IaDNLUGa-kbuIwe6uhIGCB0f1AqZT0A_Ys&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=cab6e4f0125be5c33dc26b921aed683d&oe=5EB1C9F5
Slo-go'en
12-22-2019, 13:09
I've done four hikes out of HF in recent years - 2 NOBO and 2 SOBO. I think I'm done with HF for a while. Bit of a bummer for everyone else though. At least it's winter and hiker traffic is low. Maybe it will be fixed in time for the April Flip-flop.
According to the ATC website furlough posted above the foot bridge attached will be permanently closed. Living close I've been across that thing many times in the past 30 years.
And that Maryland heights trail is nice at the top over looks HF. and the Shenandoah and Potomac rivers emerging to one. And excess to the c&o canal, there is a small parking lot but fills fast.
Slo-go'en
12-22-2019, 13:31
According to the ATC website furlough posted above the foot bridge attached will be permanently closed. Living close I've been across that thing many times in the past 30 years.
No, it says "indefinitely". That could turn into permanently if funds or permission to fix/replace it isn't forth coming. Whoever owns the bridge will likely have a say in that.
Seeing that the alternative route isn't very good, there will likely be a big push to fix the bridge. How quickly that can be done is the issue and may not happen until the summer when the weather is more favorable for that kind of work. Hopefully it won't drag out for years.
Oh I thought indefinitely and permanently had the same meaning my bad. Funny I just asked a lady friend to hike up to Maryland heights with me the other day as she's never been up there. She didn't have to derail the train a simple no would have sufficed geeeez..
atraildreamer
12-22-2019, 13:42
Just out of curiosity, if they do NOT get it fixed by this spring, what would be an alternative? Ahhh, I may see it, the hike back over the Shenandoah River, walk parallel to US340 east, then over the Sandy hook bridge? Can pedestrians cross that one?
Canoe rides? (I think that it has been done up in Maine? :-?:):banana)
From the ATC Website:
Just before 4 a.m. on Dec. 21, 2019, a CSX train derailed from the bridge crossing the Potomac River at Harpers Ferry. There were no injuries or hazardous materials involved in the derailment. CSX is fielding calls about this incident by phone at 1.800.232.0144.
The derailment affects access to parts of Harpers Ferry National Historical Park, Chesapeake & Ohio National Historical Park, and the Appalachian National Scenic Trail (A.T.). The following information details closures and impacts on visitor access.
[*=left]The footbridge attached to the CSX bridge is indefinitely closed.
[*=left]Park users will be unable to cross between Harpers Ferry and C&O Canal towpath.
[*=left]Park users will be unable to cross from Harpers Ferry to the Maryland Heights trail.
[*=left]A.T. hikers with immediate need for transport between Harpers Ferry, West Virginia and Weverton Road, Maryland should arrange for shuttles. Hikers are not advised to walk on Highway 340 to cross into Maryland, as this roadway has narrow shoulders and heavy traffic. Information about available transportation options can be found at appalachiantrail.org/transportation (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/transportation).
Other areas of Harpers Ferry National Historical Park, such as The Point and John’s Brown Fort, are closed temporarily because of proximity to the derailment. These areas will reopen once cleanup and assessment are complete.
We will update appalachiantrail.org/updates (http://appalachiantrail.org/updates) as more information becomes available.
Furlough
This says to me indefinitely meaning no more. Park users won't have access to anything across the river period.
This says to me indefinitely meaning no more. Park users won't have access to anything across the river period.
Have there been any preliminary theories bantered about on why the train derailed?
As a bit of trivia, has everyone noticed the extra lengths of rails placed over bridges that run parallel to (but just inside of) the ones used by the train?
Not sure if their placement worked exactly as intended in this case, but they may have helped.
ldsailor
12-22-2019, 14:52
Dictionary definition of indefinitely: "for an unlimited or unspecified period of time." Seems to me "unspecified period of time" is the main factor here, but then, I am an optimist.
No I just checked all the local news there saying under investigation. There were 7 empty grain cars not a weight issue, just old track failure?
Dictionary definition of indefinitely: "for an unlimited or unspecified period of time." Seems to me "unspecified period of time" is the main factor here, but then, I am an optimist.
Thank you Webster and idsailor , optimistic as well let's rebuild!
I’m sure it will eventually reopen. It’s a key piece of tourist infrastructure in HF for visitors who venture out to MD heights. Good thing no one was injured.
Canoe rides? (I think that it has been done up in Maine? :-?:):banana)
From 1936 to 1948 hikers "crossed the Shenandoah River in flat bottom punts poled by ferrymen." - from 1974 edition of Guide to the Appalachian Trail from the Susquehanna River to the Shenandoah National Park.
I remember crossing the 340 bridge years ago (70's) but I can't recall how we got off the bridge and back down to the AT. I don't recall even hiking on the C&O back in those days. I guess you'd have to cross the 340 bridge into MD and get down to Sandy Hook Rd. You can defiantly get to the AT from Sandy Hook by crossing the Canal and tracks by the utility building just downstream from the bridge. I go that way to get to the HF Hostel on Sandy Hook Rd.
Back in 1976 I hiked SOBO using the railroad bridge pedestrian plank walkway. The guidebook said thru hikers use the bridge at your own risk. The 1973 map and 1974 guide show the trail bypassed Harpers Ferry following the ridge down to route 340 and crossing the Potomac using the 340 bridge. The guide describes an "alternate trail" if you wanted to visit Harpers Ferry.That trail used the Loudon Heights trail and Shenandoah River bridge into Harpers Ferry and the railroad bridge to cross the Potomac on the way out going NOBO.
obviously most will use the 340 bridge, since they will not want to pay....
the ATC of course would not want the liability of "recommending" this
Nice drone shot showing town and train here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/trains/comments/ee4yo3/train_derailment_in_harpers_ferry_not_my_photo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
45962We just walked our bikes across there in late September as we were completing the Great Allegheny Passage and the C&O Towpath. A real pain negotiating those stairs with loaded bicycles. That’s a really nice trip if you need a break from backpacking, the whole thing is just over 350 miles, we did a leisurely 10 days only camping the last night night after picking up gear in Harpers, we slept in motels and B and B’s otherwise.
The Maryland Heights trail is in Maryland. The Loudoun Heights trail is in Virgina
45962We just walked our bikes across there in late September as we were completing the Great Allegheny Passage and the C&O Towpath. A real pain negotiating those stairs with loaded bicycles. That’s a really nice trip if you need a break from backpacking, the whole thing is just over 350 miles, we did a leisurely 10 days only camping the last night night after picking up gear in Harpers, we slept in motels and B and B’s otherwise.
Yes they were big old tight metal spiral stairs had to negotiate very causesly. I've bike packed the c&0 the gap is definently on my list. Liked the campsites with the river access and picnic table, fire ring, out houses with nice smelling pretty blue water with toilet paper and those hand pumps for water but treated with iodine Yuk. Sorry for the drift.
Just out of curiosity, if they do NOT get it fixed by this spring, what would be an alternative? Ahhh, I may see it, the hike back over the Shenandoah River, walk parallel to US340 east, then over the Sandy hook bridge? Can pedestrians cross that one?
I really hope they have it repiared by spring. The 340, sandy hook rd and bridge is very dangerous the bridge is 1 lane, very tight and dangerous. Considering the amount of folks that start pouring through here starting spring time, whew I don't want to think about that. Across the river and canal, bottom of the Maryland heights trail is a very small area for parking about 6 cars and 1/2 mile further is a small area for parking about cars that's it.
I really hope they have it repiared by spring. The 340, sandy hook rd and bridge is very dangerous the bridge is 1 lane, very tight and dangerous. Considering the amount of folks that start pouring through here starting spring time, whew I don't want to think about that. Across the river and canal, bottom of the Maryland heights trail is a very small area for parking about 6 cars and 1/2 mile further is a small area for parking about cars that's it.
So no space between the Jersey barrier and the bridge railing to walk?
So no space between the Jersey barrier and the bridge railing to walk?
No not at all, sandy hook rd itself is a very curvy, tight no room on the other side of yellow line for people dangerous kind of rd. The bridge is about 1/2 mile down and the bridge itself is curved, 1 lane and about 8' wide maybe. No Jersey barriers no railing just a little country rd & 1 lane bridge with stone walls. About another 1/2 mile is the c&o and AT trails.
I really hope they have it repiared by spring.
i highly doubt that it will get repaired by spring...
my estimation-----end of june/beginning of july at earliest....
No not at all, sandy hook rd itself is a very curvy, tight no room on the other side of yellow line for people dangerous kind of rd. The bridge is about 1/2 mile down and the bridge itself is curved, 1 lane and about 8' wide maybe. No Jersey barriers no railing just a little country rd & 1 lane bridge with stone walls. About another 1/2 mile is the c&o and AT trails.
Very hard to see on Google Earth, but here is a Street View shot of 340 that made me think there was room to walk between the bridge rail and Jersey Barrier.
45974
Yes that's the 340 bridge heading east where there is a walk way for people, which is heading west bound so that means after you cross the 340 bridge you have to cross a very busy 340 to sandy hook rd. Which once across the bridge is just up the hill. At that point if you were to keep going on 340 about 1/2 mile the AT crosses under 340.
And that is the second bridge on 340 out of Hf . The first one everyone walks across coming northbound you come up the steps and across the bridge to hf. Now you'd have to continue east on 340 to this second bridge about 1/2 mile, very little walk room , very busy road. And miss Hf.
Rickb, can you be so kind as to Google earth the sandy hook rd bridge and post it? I'm not lazy just not sure.
Rickb, can you be so kind as to Google earth the sandy hook rd bridge and post it? I'm not lazy just not sure.
I may not be looking at the right place. If I was doing Google Earth correctly, the Street View I posted was taken in the area marked with the red circle looking north. And the derailment was in the area marked with the green circle.
I have ZERO local knowledge as to the alternatives, and defer to your and other locals’ judgement with regard to the practicality and safety of road walks in the area.
My interest mostly stems from the fact that the White blazed Trail did not pass through Harpers Ferry at all when I hiked (I still regret not taking a blue blaze to the ATC HQ) so I figured there was a possible alternative to cross the river already in place (ie the route I took), for those who preferred not to take a “required” shuttle.
If the road is not safe, it should be avoided — hopefully the ATC with get out front on that. But if it is safe, that should be made known too, right?
45975
What year was it you hiked? I reckon the trail headed north used to drop down to 340 and across the bridge you pictured and straight over to south mountain to continue north through Maryland?
What year was it you hiked? I reckon the trail headed north used to drop down to 340 and across the bridge you pictured and straight over to south mountain to continue north through Maryland?
I hiked in 1983. At the time the current (now out of service) railroad bridge into Harpers Ferry was not open to foot traffic.
I now understand what you are saying about 340 — looks to be a very dangerous road, and especially so if you were to start walking it (SOBO) where the AT crosses it now, well away from the bridge. That would be crazy
While it might be possible that there are old/legacy paths that get you across the river the way I crossed it, that may not be the case at all.
A hiker who wants to avoid a shuttle or hitch so as to walk all the way from ME to GA could get himself into a sticky situation by just looking at a map without understanding exactly what you pointed out.
I expect the ATC will layout some alternatives soon, since there will always be some people who will insist on waking an unbroken line from ME to GA.
What year was it you hiked? I reckon the trail headed north used to drop down to 340 and across the bridge you pictured and straight over to south mountain to continue north through Maryland?
Here are a couple of maps I scanned published in 1973 by PATC. They show the trail alignment bypassing Harpers Ferry and following 340 across the Sandy Hook bridge.45976
And though alot less traffic sandy hook rd is even more dangerous. There's the rd itself then there's the crazy rednecks that drive it.
colorado_rob
12-24-2019, 11:21
And that is the second bridge on 340 out of Hf . The first one everyone walks across coming northbound you come up the steps and across the bridge to hf. Now you'd have to continue east on 340 to this second bridge about 1/2 mile, very little walk room , very busy road. And miss Hf.I would imagine most AT hikers will drop into HF though, visit the ATC, resupply, stay in a hostel, whatever. I could see the ATC arranging a regular shuttle, hikers pay a nominal fee, $5-10, whatever the actual cost is. We'll see how it all shakes out, but I sure don't see them having the old bridge ready for the early hiking season.
Furlough
12-24-2019, 13:44
I would imagine most AT hikers will drop into HF though, visit the ATC, resupply, stay in a hostel, whatever. I could see the ATC arranging a regular shuttle, hikers pay a nominal fee, $5-10, whatever the actual cost is. We'll see how it all shakes out, but I sure don't see them having the old bridge ready for the early hiking season.
Maybe the Harpers Ferry whitewater rafting businesses - River Riders or River and Trail Outfitters could be induced to give raft rides across the Potomac. :)
Fantastic, terrific, excellent, best, greatest idea.
rmitchell
12-24-2019, 14:18
Nice drone shot showing town and train here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/trains/comments/ee4yo3/train_derailment_in_harpers_ferry_not_my_photo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Great photo.
Is the derailment near where people had placed all the padlocks on the chain link fence ?
I suppose the bridge for the Amtrak lines is closed to pedestrian traffic.
From Google maps it looks as if the C & O Towpath goes northwest (upstream). But the bridge crossing near Shepherdstown is 12 miles north of Harpers Ferry .
BlackCloud
12-24-2019, 16:05
"indefinitely" does not = "permanently"
Yeah we've established and concurred and moved on since then.
SkeeterPee
12-24-2019, 22:48
Not sure if this was posted. A "train" guy posted a youtube video of the damage. shows the cars, and bridge from the HF side. The bridge footage starts at about 5:22. Also has a lot of other info which is interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUh6AHF6Eb4&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1ByTmFD6NAkBnauM4HwBm_avsDhGSRccI0eZaAs I-zdPf_QIt0E0uCYHc
Not sure if this was posted. A "train" guy posted a youtube video of the damage. shows the cars, and bridge from the HF side. The bridge footage starts at about 5:22. Also has a lot of other info which is interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUh6AHF6Eb4&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1ByTmFD6NAkBnauM4HwBm_avsDhGSRccI0eZaAs I-zdPf_QIt0E0uCYHc
Wow, really great video. He shows and explains quite a bit. Looks like the first 100' of the walk ways damaged/ destroyed. So now I'm thinking speeds a factor? Thanks for posting skeeterpee..
Wow, really great video. He shows and explains quite a bit. Looks like the first 100' of the walk ways damaged/ destroyed. So now I'm thinking speeds a factor? Thanks for posting skeeterpee..
Agree, great video by Railfan Rowan. Reports by the mainstream media were pathetic in comparison. Of course they have time constraints that YouTubers do not. You'll note that railfans have their own slang just like LD hikers do. I'll bet most of us never heard the term "grainers" before!
(Disclaimer: I've been a railfan since 1976, and a LD hiker since 1993. No doubt railfans can be just as precise [and sometimes long-winded] talking about trains as LD hikers can when talking about trails and backpacking. But it's all good...)
Reports by the mainstream media were pathetic in comparison. Of course they have time constraints that YouTubers do not.
as someone who works in tv news-----this would be on the very low list of things to cover.....
the closest tv station would be hagerstown, i believe, and that's about 45 minutes away....
nobody really hurt...........damage is contained...
not worth sending a crew down to get video or anything like that...
we would just rely on what information the authorities would provide..............which is probably not much....
Hmmmm....River raft it over.....How about......just wondering....a FANTASTIC SUPER ZIP-LINE! Probably have to get some historical background first on how during the Civil War, people Zipped back and forth into HF.....
Furlough
12-25-2019, 11:39
Not sure if this was posted. A "train" guy posted a youtube video of the damage. shows the cars, and bridge from the HF side. The bridge footage starts at about 5:22. Also has a lot of other info which is interesting.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUh6AHF6Eb4&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1ByTmFD6NAkBnauM4HwBm_avsDhGSRccI0eZaAs I-zdPf_QIt0E0uCYHc
The video was very interesting and informative. I would guess that the worst part, and perhaps what will be the hardest part to repair for the walkway, is the metal structure that the walkway was attached to.
Furlough
The clean up process and rebuild both I imagine are going to be time consuming. Depended upon their motivation. So is CSX trains responsible for all damages and repairs?
atraildreamer
12-25-2019, 13:56
Some possible river crossing alternatives:45991:459894599245990
I hiked in 1983. At the time the current (now out of service) railroad bridge into Harpers Ferry was not open to foot traffic.
I now understand what you are saying about 340 — looks to be a very dangerous road, and especially so if you were to start walking it (SOBO) where the AT crosses it now, well away from the bridge. That would be crazy
While it might be possible that there are old/legacy paths that get you across the river the way I crossed it, that may not be the case at all.
A hiker who wants to avoid a shuttle or hitch so as to walk all the way from ME to GA could get himself into a sticky situation by just looking at a map without understanding exactly what you pointed out.
I expect the ATC will layout some alternatives soon, since there will always be some people who will insist on waking an unbroken line from ME to GA.
Back when the AT was routed away from HF, using the Loudoun Hts>US340>Sandy Hook Bridge routing, it was before my time. However I have done dayhike loops in the late '90s and early '00s starting and ending at HF that followed that description. Ironically, the last leg used the C&O Canal and the now-damaged footbridge before reaching HF.
In December 2015, I drove to HF to do it again, stopping in at ATC before the hike. Laurie was there and informed me that would not be possible because a property owner close to US340 had closed access. (So I did another hike in the area.) She also said there was a newer issue involving crossing the RR tracks adjacent to the C&O Canal. If this is still accurate info (I think it is) then there might be an issue reclaiming this as a detour prompted by the damaged bridge.
But back to 20 years ago. I recall there was an abandoned roadway, right after you crossed the Sandy Hook Bridge, that veered off to the right. I also recall one very faint blaze which is likely no longer visible. So there was no need for me to cross US340 there to somehow head back to HF on my circuit hike. It wound around to a local road you stayed on briefly that led to Sandy Hook Rd. (it may have even been part of Sandy Hook Rd.), and then you crossed the tracks near a small store to wind up on the C&O back to HF (this is where Laurie said there was an issue involving the RR blocking foot access there). If by chance that abandoned road at the end of Sandy Hook Bridge still exists, theoretically a temporary detour could be made by using Sandy Hook Rd. going the other direction AWAY from HF, eventually turning right on Keep Tryst Rd., and meeting up with the AT again someplace near where it interfaces near the Weaverton parking area. So, instead of using the old Loudoun Heights routing which is closed by a landowner, NOBO hikers would retrace steps SOBO across the newer Shenandoah River Bridge but instead of heading SOBO on the AT, just stay on US340 all the way -- eventually crossing the Sandy Hook Bridge and following the detour I laid out above. Yes, walking along the roadway of US340 is not the best in safety but it worked for generations of AT hikers and also dayhikers later on. We contend with worse safety issues elsewhere -- today.
Or, as has been suggested here, maybe a shuttle plan can be temporarily arranged by PATC or ATC, or a coordinated effort independently by area shuttlers.
chknfngrs
12-25-2019, 16:16
This makes for interesting hiking, doesn’t it?!?!?
rmitchell
12-25-2019, 17:32
Maybe the Harpers Ferry whitewater rafting businesses - River Riders or River and Trail Outfitters could be induced to give raft rides across the Potomac. :)
The more I think about this the better I like it.
My last section hike ended in Harpers Ferry. We finished a little early so toured the historic section of town and crossed the Potomac. So even though I've literally crossed that bridge I would like to start my next northbound section in May 2020 from Harpers Ferry. It would be cool to cross by boat if at all practical .
However if necessary I suppose I will have to get shuttled to the east bank in order to continue north.
chknfngrs
12-25-2019, 19:03
water crossing could be problematic bc of current. but interesting and challenging nonetheless!!
Slo-go'en
12-25-2019, 21:05
water crossing could be problematic bc of current. but interesting and challenging nonetheless!!
Yea, I was thinking the same thing. Especially in the spring. You'd end up way down stream. It looks like fun though, with the white water rapids and all. There must be rafting there in the spring already.
I can't remember how the trail went through there in '89. I think the way it does (or did) now. But I would imagine in the 70's and 80, both hiker traffic and road traffic on 340 was a lot lighter then it is today.
During the floods the year before, they used shuttles? Not sure that is a viable long term solution. I imagine those who's job it is to solve these types of problems are working to do so. Just have to wait to see what they come up with.
Mother Natures Son
12-26-2019, 07:50
Everyone relax. ATC will figure something out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kNvcxwJVs4
Hopefully the walk bridge can be repaired. The ATC has done a great job removing road walks on the AT in Northern Va. There used to be a 1 mile road walk thru Linden and a longer road walk, off and on between Rt. 50 and Rt. 7 after Paris Va.
Not sure if this was posted. A "train" guy posted a youtube video of the damage. shows the cars, and bridge from the HF side. The bridge footage starts at about 5:22. Also has a lot of other info which is interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUh6AHF6Eb4&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1ByTmFD6NAkBnauM4HwBm_avsDhGSRccI0eZaAs I-zdPf_QIt0E0uCYHc
This is a really good informational video. And I noticed he mentioned the speed limit a couple times at 5 mph through there. The train cars were empty so not a weight issue. I know there investigating the situation, but it would have to be track failure or speeding right? It's not like someone went out there and put a quarter on the tracks and caused all this . So csx or track repairs ? Either way the equipment and money they have in all reality if not tied up in some stupid court ,shouldn't take long to do these repairs we're only talking 100' , 1/3 of a football field.
This is a really good informational video. And I noticed he mentioned the speed limit a couple times at 5 mph through there. The train cars were empty so not a weight issue. I know there investigating the situation, but it would have to be track failure or speeding right? It's not like someone went out there and put a quarter on the tracks and caused all this . So csx or track repairs ? Either way the equipment and money they have in all reality if not tied up in some stupid court ,shouldn't take long to do these repairs we're only talking 100' , 1/3 of a football field.
A few train oriented websites have suggested that the derailment is a classic case of “stringlining”.
This is makes intuitive sense — imagine a train running along the curve of a clock face with the heavy cars in back at “9 O’clock” and the light/empty cars in front at “12 O’clock”. Now imaging tugging the “string” from the front even at at slow speed, and you can visualize how cars at the front of the train could pull off the track towards the inside of the curve.
My concern with seeing a repair done quickly is not so much with the actual construction.
While undoubtedly the repairs are more complicated than they look to a non-engineer, the derailment happened where a whole lot of smart and well-connected people are paying attention. As such, I would bet that CSX (or whoever genously allowed the AT to pass over the bridge they own) might normally go the extra mile to see the walkway was repaired.
Rather my concern is that someone — the bridge owner/railway, NPS or some other authority — will want to study the heck out of what happened to make sure that the repair is not inherently unsafe given the track geometry. If that happens, any approval to begin construction would get delayed “indefinitely”.
Traveler
12-26-2019, 11:37
Though it does not look like a lot of damage in photos and video snippets, in the engineering world ANY damage in the approach or in the span over a river like this is quite serious. I have seen railroad bridges hit by trucks going under them take a long time before deemed ok to use without much visible damage. Engineers (both internal to the Railroad and outside consultants) will need to look the entire span over to determine the extent of the damage before the first bolt is removed or replaced. Prior to all that happening, determining why the derailment occurred will need to be investigated.
I would doubt much existing material would be reused in repairs as opposed to being replaced to make any kind of quick repair unfortunately. From this particular video and other news photos/footage, it looks like is some considerable damage to track and components for two, maybe three spans from the HF side of the river. Some of the HF shore stonework is damaged, which indicates movement of the track supports, which in turn can weaken one or more of the stone supports in the river. It is also possible the impact of the wreck affected the entire span, which may need work as a result.
Unfortunately we won't know much for a while but I'm sure the ATC is out today looking at routing detours that can be used.
But back to 20 years ago. I recall there was an abandoned roadway, right after you crossed the Sandy Hook Bridge, that veered off to the right. I also recall one very faint blaze which is likely no longer visible. So there was no need for me to cross US340 there to somehow head back to HF on my circuit hike. It wound around to a local road you stayed on briefly that led to Sandy Hook Rd. (it may have even been part of Sandy Hook Rd.), and then you crossed the tracks near a small store to wind up on the C&O back to HF (this is where Laurie said there was an issue involving the RR blocking foot access there). If by chance that abandoned road at the end of Sandy Hook Bridge still exists, theoretically a temporary detour could be made by using Sandy Hook Rd. going the other direction AWAY from HF, eventually turning right on Keep Tryst Rd., and meeting up with the AT again someplace near where it interfaces near the Weaverton parking area. So, instead of using the old Loudoun Heights routing which is closed by a landowner, NOBO hikers would retrace steps SOBO across the newer Shenandoah River Bridge but instead of heading SOBO on the AT, just stay on US340 all the way -- eventually crossing the Sandy Hook Bridge and following the detour I laid out above. Yes, walking along the roadway of US340 is not the best in safety but it worked for generations of AT hikers and also dayhikers later on. We contend with worse safety issues elsewhere -- today.
Miller Lane is off Sandy Hook and heads towards Rt 340, if you look at this map https://www.google.com/maps/place/Harpers+Ferry,+WV+25425/@39.3273952,-77.7056759,146m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89b6030decf1954d:0xd65b9 aa758b4cd1e!8m2!3d39.3253786!4d-77.7388818 you'll see that power lines still follow the old roadbed. I hikes this in the early 70's and recall walking across the 340 over the Potomac. I just can't recall how we got to the back onto the AT.
A few train oriented websites have suggested that the derailment is a classic case of “stringlining”.
This is makes intuitive sense — imagine a train running along the curve of a clock face with the heavy cars in back at “9 O’clock” and the light/empty cars in front at “12 O’clock”. Now imaging tugging the “string” from the front even at at slow speed, and you can visualize how cars at the front of the train could pull off the track towards the inside of the curve.
My concern with seeing a repair done quickly is not so much with the actual construction.
While undoubtedly the repairs are more complicated than they look to a non-engineer, the derailment happened where a whole lot of smart and well-connected people are paying attention. As such, I would bet that CSX (or whoever genously allowed the AT to pass over the bridge they own) might normally go the extra mile to see the walkway was repaired.
Rather my concern is that someone — the bridge owner/railway, NPS or some other authority — will want to study the heck out of what happened to make sure that the repair is not inherently unsafe given the track geometry. If that happens, any approval to begin construction would get delayed “indefinitely”.
Thanks something I certainly didn't think about "stringling" but makes sense. I think most of us learned something there.
Miller Lane is off Sandy Hook and heads towards Rt 340, if you look at this map https://www.google.com/maps/place/Harpers+Ferry,+WV+25425/@39.3273952,-77.7056759,146m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89b6030decf1954d:0xd65b9 aa758b4cd1e!8m2!3d39.3253786!4d-77.7388818 you'll see that power lines still follow the old roadbed. I hikes this in the early 70's and recall walking across the 340 over the Potomac. I just can't recall how we got to the back onto the AT.
Yeah but like previous posters pointed out it's probably private land these days . You can also see sandy hook rd just on the other side of the bridge running parallel to the AT and c& o canal. I think you have to go up keptryst rd , then make a right on sandy hook rd
TexasBob
12-26-2019, 13:14
....... Engineers (both internal to the Railroad and outside consultants) will need to look the entire span over to determine the extent of the damage before the first bolt is removed or replaced. Prior to all that happening, determining why the derailment occurred will need to be investigated.........
Good point. The NTSB surely is investigating of the accident as well the West Virginia and possibility Maryland state transportation agencies who will also likely be involved in bridge inspection and any rebuilding process.
Though it does not look like a lot of damage in photos and video snippets, in the engineering world ANY damage in the approach or in the span over a river like this is quite serious. I have seen railroad bridges hit by trucks going under them take a long time before deemed ok to use without much visible damage. Engineers (both internal to the Railroad and outside consultants) will need to look the entire span over to determine the extent of the damage before the first bolt is removed or replaced. Prior to all that happening, determining why the derailment occurred will need to be investigated.
I would doubt much existing material would be reused in repairs as opposed to being replaced to make any kind of quick repair unfortunately. From this particular video and other news photos/footage, it looks like is some considerable damage to track and components for two, maybe three spans from the HF side of the river. Some of the HF shore stonework is damaged, which indicates movement of the track supports, which in turn can weaken one or more of the stone supports in the river. It is also possible the impact of the wreck affected the entire span, which may need work as a result.
Unfortunately we won't know much for a while but I'm sure the ATC is out today looking at routing detours that can be used.
That second to the last paragraph is probably worse case scenario. Damaged stone work and stone supports in the river.
I'm old enough to remember the slog along the Highway from Sandy Hook bridge into HF, not fun. At the time we thought about crossing on the railroad bridge, which was illegal. I did it once and survived... but you would be in big trouble if a train came because the only place to walk was in the middle of the tracks.
I hope they repair the walk bridge soon. It was a wonderful improvement to the AT.
chknfngrs
12-26-2019, 21:29
What if the railroad bridge was used, albeit during a finite set of hours the rail companies could avoid using to allow Joe Hiker Man to safely pass?
This could in theory work. There could be times hikers can cross when no trains are due. And other times they would have to close somehow.
And it wouldn't have to be a walk across the train bridge the whole way. They could have hikers walk the train bridge and then cut back over to the walkway again where it is safe to do so. The problem I see here is all kinds of folks will be wanting to get to the other side young, old, loaded bicycles, loaded old people.
Mother Natures Son
12-27-2019, 07:53
Has anyone considered what they did to the bridge at ATC's maintenance base Mid-Atlantic crews near Carlisle AKA the Scott Farm? If I remember correctly, the road was heavily traveled and narrow, much like a 340 bridge but in a rural setting. They decided to hang a pedestrian only bridge off the concrete bridge and thus became the bridge to safety. This might work in a prefab, pre-engineered scenario. It would be the answer to a long-term fix since the bridge going into HF is going to be down for quite a long time. Would like to hear some feedback from the group or possibly ATC.
This article suggested that the tracks were going to be opened back up for trains last Sunday.
http://wvmetronews.com/2019/12/22/tracks-reopening-at-harpers-ferry-derailment-site-pedestrian-bridge-remains-closed/
Was that the case?
If so, concerns over the abutments and serious damage to the bridge look to be unfounded, and rebuilding the footpath in a timely manner would just be a matter of determination.
That is a big “if” however.
Are the trains really back up and running?
Since last Sunday?
Traveler
12-27-2019, 08:05
That's pretty fast to make any kind of official determination of accident cause and track/bridge/abutment integrity.
A lot of things work "in theory", unfortunately reality is much different. In this instance the AT footbridge is probably not very high on the priority list of the railroad at this point. The only silver lining I see is since the footbridge is part of the AT trail system and will have some weight in repair solutions and schedules.
In short term, I doubt any railroad operator would agree to pedestrian traffic on a narrow railroad bridge over water that required accurate and real-time information of scheduled and unscheduled train traffic to avoid being run over. There really is not a safe way to mix foot and train traffic in the same physical space. Since the late 1990's, over 7,000 people walking near railroad tracks have been killed by trains, approximately 6,000 have been injured. Facts like these are indisputable and will be at the top of the push-back list in denying access to foot traffic.
Money?
i expect railway executives and government officials might find it easier to open a bridge to trains carrying all manner of freight (including dangerous chemicals) than it will be to give the go ahead to allow foot traffic once again.
And that the actual reconstruction of the footbridge might prove to be the easiest part of the process.
Can anyone confirm if the bridge was reopened to trains last Sunday?
Yeah but like previous posters pointed out it's probably private land these days . You can also see sandy hook rd just on the other side of the bridge running parallel to the AT and c& o canal. I think you have to go up keptryst rd , then make a right on sandy hook rd
Private property like much of the AT back in those days.
I was just replying to Skyline's post and identifying the road.
Private property like much of the AT back in those days.
I was just replying to Skyline's post and identifying the road.
Ok,ok, calm down don't let your cream curdle. I to am just making observations and suggestions.
double d
12-27-2019, 13:56
Maybe I missed it, but had/did the ATC make any public statements regarding a AT opening time line and the train derailment?
Maybe I missed it, but had/did the ATC make any public statements regarding a AT opening time line and the train derailment?
They said they don’t recommend walking any alternative route, and that hikers should call a shuttle to drive them around.
If you go to their website exact quote is in the Trail updates section.
The AT is no longer a continuous footpath from ME to GA.
They said they don’t recommend walking any alternative route, and that hikers should call a shuttle to drive them around.
If you go to their website exact quote is in the Trail updates section.
The AT is no longer a continuous footpath from ME to GA.
it has not been a continuous footpath since 1986 when the Kennebec ferry became the official trail.
Slo-go'en
12-27-2019, 19:57
it has not been a continuous footpath since 1986 when the Kennebec ferry became the official trail.
And even before that, since you can't walk across the Kennebec. (Edit: I guess you can, but it's a bit of a detour to the bridge...)
The shuttle drivers will have to paint a white blaze on their car doors :)
RE the suggestion to walk the tracks? I doubt there is anything except air between the RR ties on the bridge. You'd have to tread very carefully.
RE the suggestion to walk the tracks? I doubt there is anything except air between the RR ties on the bridge. You'd have to tread very carefully.
My guess is that kind of trespass would be highly illegal, and something that should be discouraged by everyone. It would be beyond irresponsible.
I wonder, however, what the better solution would be in the minds of 2020 thru hikers and the ATC both: A suboptimal temporary Trail relocation, or a required 20 mile ride in a car, bus or Van?
I expect the latter for most people, but hope that a suitably safe walking option can be found again.
Or better still, that some connected folks find a way to work with the RR at the very highest level, in the hopes that the generosity they have shown in the past might be extended again to get the pathway fixed on an expedited schedule — especially if it is true that trains began running last Sunday evening.
SkeeterPee
12-28-2019, 12:21
Good question. It seems their message is to take ride to Weverton cliffs lot. I think if that is case, I would possibly walk the tow path back to the bridge and then back to Weverton, 3 miles each way. Though I have walked that before so I could see skipping it. Though if they do an alternate route I would do that. I can't imagine it being more dangerous that the roads I walk on to practice and also many of the highways I have crossed on the AT.
4eyedbuzzard
12-28-2019, 12:46
It would appear that in the interim, a 2 mile or so road walk eastbound on US 340, before crossing the 340 bridge over the Shenandoah River into the town of HF (and bypassing the AT through town), would put one back on the AT / tow path once across the Potomac at the Sandy Hook bridge, about a mile "Trail NOBO" of the damaged bridge leaving town. The downside is that it's a not a particularly safe route - the road is high traffic with no shoulder - likely the reason ATC is recommending shuttling around the situation.
chknfngrs
12-28-2019, 13:57
Shuttle from Shenandoah Street to Weverton Cliff parking.
The thru hiking purist would not approve. They would want a shuttle down sandy hook rd . And get back on across the bridge where the AT joins the c& o canal for 3 miles and up to weverton cliff parking.
The thru hiking purist would not approve. They would want a shuttle down sandy hook rd . And get back on across the bridge where the AT joins the c& o canal for 3 miles and up to weverton cliff parking.
Right now, per the ATC:
In the event of an emergency, such as a flood, a forest fire, or an impending storm, blue-blazed trails or officially required roadwalks are viable substitutes for the white-blazed route.
Perhaps they will update their 2,000 mile requirement to allow for an officially required car, bus or van ride.
Lone Wolf
12-28-2019, 16:27
The thru hiking purist would not approve. They would want a shuttle down sandy hook rd . And get back on across the bridge where the AT joins the c& o canal for 3 miles and up to weverton cliff parking.
they can pay for a shuttle and deal with it
they can pay for a shuttle and deal with it
New page, yes they can....
An article on the status of the HF bridge repairs.
Some highlights:
NPS owns the footbridge. They want a study on the structural integrity of the bridge before repairs. CSX says it's safe.
No timeline yet for repairs.
Shuttle service is being discussed.
Apparently people are using the railroad tracks to cross the bridge which is obviously very dangerous.
http://www.shepherdstownchronicle.com/page/content.detail/id/518616/Harpers-Ferry-council-receives-update-on-pedestrian-bridge-status.html?nav=5127&fbclid=IwAR2ikU8-VMRdmxsTdreqH0y6M4MLkn8_2QcBQHwuQtMticOI8TGJOrBsTq 0
I can't understand why csx won't just do the repairs, once determined structurally safe. Csx train derails and damages nps walkway . Why nps have to repair and see about reimbursement?as the article says it's a huge part of Hf that's what brings alot folks down there to access the c&o canal and Maryland heights. And the fact that sandy hook rd is to small and narrow for buses gives a lot of insight to people how dangerous this rd is. And the fact is right or wrong people are going to continue walking the railroad across. If something happens like a train hitting someone I know it's on them as they broke the law, but the longer this goes on well....
Does this mean, say I have house next to the railroad and a train derailed and totally destroyed my house they may or may not reimbursement me ? So frustrating!
Just to put this on the front page where it belongs. Some people ain't got nothing to add to threads but little 1 liners.
Just as I predicted WRT the analysis paralysis.
Does this mean, say I have house next to the railroad and a train derailed and totally destroyed my house they may or may not reimbursement me ? So frustrating!
it would be per the contract that allows for the footbridge (on CSX property) - the price of repairs is nothing compared to the liability if a bunch of people were hit - no way the railroad would allow their bridge to be used if they were not "held harmless"
Just as I predicted WRT the analysis paralysis.
If this is me could you elaborate?
If this is me could you elaborate?
In an earlier post I suggested that while the actual repairs might be done quickly, the RR or NPS or some other authority might want to study the heck out things before signing off.
Analysis paralysis.
Seems like that is exactly what is happening.
If I understood the article correctly, the CSX was able to get trains running within 48 hours and affirmed that everything is structurally fine to begin reconstruction of the footpath.
But the NPS feels compelled to do more studies and analysis before doing anything.
And why not? If a hiker gets hit by a car along the roadside it’s no skin off the signatory’s nose, but if bridge that CSX says is perfectly sound crumbles into the river, he might be taken to task.
(But just wait until the CSX determines the curve of the track played a role in the derailment if you really want to see how long the repairs will get delayed)
Oh, ok gotcha. We're on the same page. Soooo frustrating just fix the damn thing csx!!
A few train oriented websites have suggested that the derailment is a classic case of “stringlining”.
This was precisely the cause of TWO freight derailments at the Horseshoe Curve near Altoona, PA in 2019. Note the empty, lighter carriers directly behind the locomotives in each derailment.
Not the engineers' fault. The dispatcher who decides upon the consist (train term for which cars and in what order make up the train) should certainly know better. Especially in the 7/26 derailment, only three weeks after the 7/5 derailment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhdxlqAT2uE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsE9mOohSB8
In a photo I saw of the HF derailment before the freight cars/locos were cleared, it did seem as if the cars (that were dangling) following the locos, were similar to what we can see at Horseshoe Curve in that they were empty carriers. It is also plausible that speed played a role, perhaps in combo with stringlining. NTSB will have to clarify. And they need to issue emergency safety alerts to every rail yard in existence not to create consists like this, regardless of findings in this particular derailment.
Thankfully no one died in any of these three incidents.
If faulty consist is the main factor at HF, how could anyone but CSX be found culpable? These likely won't be found to be true accidents, but derailments waiting to happen.
(But just wait until the CSX determines the curve of the track played a role in the derailment if you really want to see how long the repairs will get delayed)
Yes, but consists properly made up at the yard could handle that curve in HF. Putting lightweight, empty cars at the front of a train, after the locos, is not supposed to happen. In the east, there are curves everywhere. Dispatchers should know that and not create situations like this.
after 1 derailment,if the pedestrian part is reopened it would definitely increase the liability if people were hit by a future train
- again, where is the upside for a decision maker? whether they are NPS or CSX - and a "hasty" choice would look the worst
- again, the ATC/NPS will say to pay for a shuttle, the actual hikers will walk across the narrow bridge
If faulty consist is the main factor at HF, how could anyone but CSX be found culpable? These likely won't be found to be true accidents, but derailments waiting to happen.
again, do you really think the CSX allowed the bridge to be used without being "held harmless"
so fault has no bearing
again, do you really think the CSX allowed the bridge to be used without being "held harmless"
so fault has no bearing
Do you really think 'held harmless' would have any value whatsoever in court if negligence was involved?
Traveler
01-17-2020, 09:55
What is likely to happen here is the footbridge will be last on the list. First up will be a study of the structural integrity of the bridge, stone/concrete supports, and track elements. Then repairs will be scheduled as needed to the crossing and track. This will then be followed by, or possibly done concurrently with the crossing inspection process, an engineering analysis of the footbridge integrity will be completed along with repair/replacement recommendations. Estimating cost and duration of construction along with railroad impacts will need to occur, followed by specification development, bidding processes, contractor scheduling, and permitting. It may seem to some overkill, however things like this require heavy lifting to ensure there are no problems following repairs.
It must've been a heck of a feat to get the agreement with the railroad to attach a footbridge to their bridge in the first place so there may not be legal action on behalf of the NPS owned AT bridge crossing. Responsibly funding will likely be informal financial negotiations with CSX. If the footbridge study processes will follow the completion of the track/bridge/support repairs, it will add significantly to the time involved to complete those repairs. If NPS/CSX negotiations generate CSX funding for repairs, funds will likely be provided to the NPS who in turn will contract for the work to be done to keep CSX liability exposure minimized.
It's anyones guess how long this particular process will take, I would estimate at least a year before physical work starts on the footbridge repair which may be optimistic. It's hard to say if the footbridge would be reopened as is under a temporary permit until the RR repairs are completed. The safest route for CSX would be to keep the footbridge closed and vigorously enforce trespassing laws with RR police until repairs are fully completed, however the NPS/CSX partnership may allow some flexibility.
LazyLightning
01-18-2020, 08:36
sounds like the politics of todays world getting involved with ruining everything. More studies and everything else mentioned only = more $$ for someone and that's what it's about.
Traveler
01-18-2020, 09:50
sounds like the politics of todays world getting involved with ruining everything. More studies and everything else mentioned only = more $$ for someone and that's what it's about.
Yeah, it probably has nothing to do with transportation safety, environmental issues resulting from derailments in the future, and public health.
4eyedbuzzard
01-18-2020, 10:06
What is likely to happen here is the footbridge will be last on the list. First up will be a study of the structural integrity of the bridge, stone/concrete supports, and track elements. Then repairs will be scheduled as needed to the crossing and track. This will then be followed by, or possibly done concurrently with the crossing inspection process, an engineering analysis of the footbridge integrity will be completed along with repair/replacement recommendations. Estimating cost and duration of construction along with railroad impacts will need to occur, followed by specification development, bidding processes, contractor scheduling, and permitting. It may seem to some overkill, however things like this require heavy lifting to ensure there are no problems following repairs.
It must've been a heck of a feat to get the agreement with the railroad to attach a footbridge to their bridge in the first place so there may not be legal action on behalf of the NPS owned AT bridge crossing. Responsibly funding will likely be informal financial negotiations with CSX. If the footbridge study processes will follow the completion of the track/bridge/support repairs, it will add significantly to the time involved to complete those repairs. If NPS/CSX negotiations generate CSX funding for repairs, funds will likely be provided to the NPS who in turn will contract for the work to be done to keep CSX liability exposure minimized.
It's anyones guess how long this particular process will take, I would estimate at least a year before physical work starts on the footbridge repair which may be optimistic. It's hard to say if the footbridge would be reopened as is under a temporary permit until the RR repairs are completed. The safest route for CSX would be to keep the footbridge closed and vigorously enforce trespassing laws with RR police until repairs are fully completed, however the NPS/CSX partnership may allow some flexibility.The bridge was reopened to RR traffic in my understanding. Most of the damage was to the footbridge when the cars derailed (due to stringlining across the curve as many have suggested?). See before and after photos:
https://www.hyperbear.com/acw/harpersferry/photos/acw-hf-bridge-4.jpg
http://wvmetronews.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Harpers_Ferry_train_2-911x683.jpg?x35760
sounds like the politics of todays world getting involved with ruining everything. More studies and everything else mentioned only = more $$ for someone and that's what it's about.I wouldn't dismiss it as "politics." It's more about engineering and public safety. The walkway sustained damage over a significant part of its length (about 1/3), some of it severe. Exactly who is taking responsibility for the repair, managing the project, and paying for that was not revealed - but it seems like it's falling at least partly on NPS at this point. If the repair falls on the shoulders of NPS, somewhere within NPS an engineer (and staff) is going to have to assess the scope of the repair project, sign off on the repair and process, a project manager (and staff) will have to get involved and do an RFP (request for proposal/bid) and then go out for bids, a contract will be awarded, a contractor is going to have to perform the work, etc. None of that has anything to do with "politics" or "more $$ for someone." If anything, the process is there to make sure the job gets done correctly and that some federal employee's brother-in-law doesn't get a taxpayer funded blank check. It will also require that NPS coordinate with CSX and unassociated third party experts, as NPS in-house people likely aren't experienced in designing walkways added to 100 year old railway bridges. CSX has reportedly declared an okay on the the structural integrity of the bridge itself and that the walkway repair can begin. Should we put 100% trust in that assessment, or practice what's known as due diligence?
Check out this video at the 6 minute mark to get a better idea of the severity of the damage to the pedestrian walkway structure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUh6AHF6Eb4&feature=youtu.be
Looking at it, there is severe damage to the decking, beams, and support structure. It looks like replacing sections of the walkway beam, fabricating and welding up some new iron trusses (the angled supports for the cantilevered walkway), and installing new treadway and fences. That in itself could take some significant time working next to active trains while elevated on a bridge structure and above water. But we can't see the other possible details, and NPS can't either without a thorough inspection. 25-30 ton (empty weight) rail cars were dragged across and over and through structural elements that have previously been carrying only the weight of pedestrian traffic. Obviously, the main structure is pretty sturdy, as there doesn't seem to be catastrophic failure to the bridge span itself. But given the weight of the rail cars and forces involved, at a minimum I'd want to inspect every attachment point of the support members, integrity of the deck, etc. And, yeah, that will likely take some time. Good, cheap, fast - choose any two.
FreeGoldRush
01-18-2020, 18:43
We have a canoe on the AT. Maybe we can have a raft too.
It's more about engineering and public safety.
somewhere within NPS an engineer (and staff) is going to have to assess the scope of the repair project, sign off on the repair and process, a project manager (and staff) will have to get involved and do an RFP (request for proposal/bid) and then go out for bids, a contract will be awarded, a contractor is going to have to perform the work, etc.
and at every step of the way there will be the "what if"
CSX, NPS, the engineering firm, the contractor will all be looking at the liability if people on the bridge are hit by a train
Time for a reroute.
A required shuttle doesn’t cut it.
20 million for a separate pedestrian bridge?
Time for a reroute.
A required shuttle doesn’t cut it.
Yes I concur! But not alot of options here as that has been discussed, without that very dangerous rt. 340 walk south to keptryst rd to sandy hook rd, which is all very dangerous walking. It would be a very long and dangerous walk for 1 hiker not to mention 2 or more. And people would miss Hf and the ATC and not getting their picture taken, not gonna happen. Yeah quite the quagmire to be in. If folks were ok with missing Hf and the ATC and missing about 3 miles or so of the AT they could walk south on rt 340 for about 1 mile where the AT crosses under rt 340 and walk down to and continue north. But that's alot what ifs and alot to miss out on I suppose.
Alligator
01-18-2020, 21:48
No need to inject politics into the thread folks. Keep it out of the thread and off the forum.
Yes I concur! But not alot of options here as that has been discussed, without that very dangerous rt. 340 walk south to keptryst rd to sandy hook rd, which is all very dangerous walking. It would be a very long and dangerous walk for 1 hiker not to mention 2 or more. And people would miss Hf and the ATC and not getting their picture taken, not gonna happen. Yeah quite the quagmire to be in. If folks were ok with missing Hf and the ATC and missing about 3 miles or so of the AT they could walk south on rt 340 for about 1 mile where the AT crosses under rt 340 and walk down to and continue north. But that's alot what ifs and alot to miss out on I suppose.
You could have a blue blaze into Harpers Ferry, as was the case before the footpath on the rail bridge was built.
There is nothing sacred about having the AT pass through Harpers Ferry’s.
There is something sacred about maintaining the AT as an unbroken pathway.
A route must be found for 2020 hikers.
The ATC is in the best position to suggest/find/build the safest one.
Furlough
01-19-2020, 10:17
There is nothing sacred about having the AT pass through Harpers Ferry’s. There is something sacred about maintaining the AT as an unbroken pathway. A route must be found for 2020 hikers. The ATC is in the best position to suggest/find/build the safest one.
The Tuscarora Trail - a 252 mile re-route.:)
Established in the 1960's as an alternate route for the Appalachian Trail (AT), the Tuscarora Trail is a 250-mile long trail through the Ridge and Valley Appalachians of Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland and Pennsylvania. More recently, sections of the Tuscarora from Mill Mountain in West Virginia to Cove Mountain in Pennsylvania, have been included in the long-distance Great Eastern Trail. A hiking destination in its own right, the Tuscarora Trail leaves the AT near Mathews Arm Campground in Shenandoah National Park making its way west and north to rejoin the AT atop Blue Mountain, 10 miles south of Duncannon, Pa. Coupling the experience of remote wilderness, green pastures, small towns, rugged tread-way and country back roads, the Tuscarora offers a truly unique hiking adventure.
Furlough
Traveler
01-19-2020, 10:17
and at every step of the way there will be the "what if" CSX, NPS, the engineering firm, the contractor will all be looking at the liability if people on the bridge are hit by a train
You would prefer they did not hold that concern during construction and the integrity of the pedestrian bridge in long term? Responsible entities keep that consideration high in this type of situation. Irresponsible ones do not, which is why we have collapses like the Miami pedestrian bridge and too many others to mention. I would prefer this to be done right, frankly I am not sure why anyone wouldn't.
4eyedbuzzard
01-19-2020, 11:09
and at every step of the way there will be the "what if"
CSX, NPS, the engineering firm, the contractor will all be looking at the liability if people on the bridge are hit by a train
20 million for a separate pedestrian bridge?
You would prefer they did not hold that concern during construction and the integrity of the pedestrian bridge in long term? Responsible entities keep that consideration high in this type of situation. Irresponsible ones do not, which is why we have collapses like the Miami pedestrian bridge and too many others to mention. I would prefer this to be done right, frankly I am not sure why anyone wouldn't.
Here is my biggest concern. And yeah, I'm one of those what-if type people when it's warranted.
Because, but for the good fortune that this event occurred at 3am on a winter night rather than 3pm on a summer day, the scene just prior to the derailment might have looked like this:
https://www.rivertrail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/rt_sightssounds.jpg?w=225
These young people are exactly why we will keep asking what-if. They are why a full assessment of not only the mechanical repair of what previously existed must be performed, but why an analysis of the derailment and how to ensure it isn't repeated must be done, and why a full reassessment of the routing itself may need to be taken into consideration as well. They are why we'll worry about the safety aspects first, and the costs and timeliness second.
Trillium
01-19-2020, 11:53
Traveler, I think you might possibly have misinterpreted what George meant. Reading this thread says to me that you, George, 4eyedbuzzard are likely engineers, project managers, project accountants or procurement professionals with understanding of how government procurement works.
LazyLightning
01-19-2020, 11:59
Sorry I mentioned politics, I wasn't trying to start anything or sound ignorant towards safety concerns. I didn't mean what a lot of people would think of as politics either but there's some in everything... like in the building/carpentry field you have all sorts of ridiculous new codes every year because of the hardware companies. I was talking to a building inspector about how meaningless some stuff is and he shook his head and said its all these companies at their meetings pushing the importance of all these products and nobody's saying anything against it... That's just a small example of what I was getting it. I know nothing about the bridge process but figured something like that had to be going on because it does with everything, but I shouldn't of said anything and apologize.
I understand the concern with future accidents on the bridge. However railroads run through towns and cities in extremely close proximity to people everywhere, sometimes with catastrophic results, and yet they rebuild and carry on.
BlackCloud
01-19-2020, 12:52
How many thousands of trains and millions of people have walked over that bridge w/o incident? Life is not w/o risk. Don't try to ruin a good thing w/ hysterics.
Alligator
01-19-2020, 14:02
Sorry I mentioned politics, I wasn't trying to start anything or sound ignorant towards safety concerns. I didn't mean what a lot of people would think of as politics either but there's some in everything... like in the building/carpentry field you have all sorts of ridiculous new codes every year because of the hardware companies. I was talking to a building inspector about how meaningless some stuff is and he shook his head and said its all these companies at their meetings pushing the importance of all these products and nobody's saying anything against it... That's just a small example of what I was getting it. I know nothing about the bridge process but figured something like that had to be going on because it does with everything, but I shouldn't of said anything and apologize.i knew what you meant (bureaucracy in general) and that's why I left your post up. Other folks started to run with it or responded to the deleted posts.
Enough said on that score though.
Furlough
01-19-2020, 14:07
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/miscgreen/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by rickb https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2262756#post2262756)
There is nothing sacred about having the AT pass through Harpers Ferry’s. There is something sacred about maintaining the AT as an unbroken pathway. A route must be found for 2020 hikers. The ATC is in the best position to suggest/find/build the safest one.
The Tuscarora Trail - a 252 mile re-route.:)
Or back to my suggestion at post #52.
Slo-go'en
01-19-2020, 14:25
Just found out Google Earth street view lets you walk across the bridge :)
This confirmed that there are stone pillers for a bridge which used to cross the river, just off to the side of the current tracks. Two of which are still intact and two which are gone. I was pretty sure I had noticed them when I crossed last year.
Rather then repair the current walkway, maybe it would be better to build a new foot bridge on the old pillers. These likely date to before the Civil war, so could be of historical significant to restore. But then, it did cost a million dollars to covert an existing RR bridge into a foot path over the James River in VA.
4eyedbuzzard
01-19-2020, 15:03
Just found out Google Earth street view lets you walk across the bridge :)
This confirmed that there are stone pillers for a bridge which used to cross the river, just off to the side of the current tracks. Two of which are still intact and two which are gone. I was pretty sure I had noticed them when I crossed last year.
Rather then repair the current walkway, maybe it would be better to build a new foot bridge on the old pillers. These likely date to before the Civil war, so could be of historical significant to restore. But then, it did cost a million dollars to covert an existing RR bridge into a foot path over the James River in VA.Here's some history on the bridge(s) for you - just killin' time ;) http://www.wvculture.org/shpo/nr/pdf/jefferson/78001484.pdf
Wow, so cool thanks so much for putting that up. Absolutely amazing what they were capable of way back then. No hydraulics, no laser assistance leveling, no concrete truck pumps. Just amazes me. Alot of pick and axe and unreliable dynamite. So if I'm reading it correctly they built a new bridge to accommodate the new speeds of trains and take out the drastic curves as well as tunneling through the mountain? And the old bridge which we can still see the concrete pillars was wiped out by the flood of 1936? And some guy named Harper used to ferry people across up 1794 ?hence harpers ferry. Thanks again for this. And how the hell did they do concrete pillars in the middle a river back then?
4eyedbuzzard
01-19-2020, 15:56
A little research (without links) while just killin' time. The track that the derailment occurred on is a dead ended 30+ mile secondary line that serves grain customer(s) in Winchester, VA area. Typically the railroad hauls 50 to 65 loaded grain cars there, then hauls the empties back out. It isn't a heavily used line. The curve radius at the bridge approach is somewhere between 300 and 330 feet. It meets the absolute minimum radius (288 ft) for North American rail lines but not on lines for general service. The minimum radius for general service is 410 ft. The preferred minimum on freight main lines is 574 ft.It's an old bridge (1894), and an old rail system - with sharp curves at the bridge approach that wouldn't likely be built today. Speed and tractive effort/force need to be carefully controlled on short radius curves, which is one of the theories regarding why this accident happened. Short radius curves also have increased rail maintenance and failure issues due to the force of train wheels pushing against the sides of the rails as they go around the curve.
Given that the track right next to the walkway is so infrequently used, it would seem that one possible choice that would both increase safety and expedite resolving the break in the AT footpath would be to rebuild the pedestrian bridge but simply prohibit people from being on it for the few minutes while a train was crossing. Nothing wrong with keeping moving trains and people away from each other.
Here is my biggest concern. And yeah, I'm one of those what-if type people when it's warranted.
Because, but for the good fortune that this event occurred at 3am on a winter night rather than 3pm on a summer day, the scene just prior to the derailment might have looked like this:
https://www.rivertrail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/rt_sightssounds.jpg?w=225
These young people are exactly why we will keep asking what-if. They are why a full assessment of not only the mechanical repair of what previously existed must be performed, but why an analysis of the derailment and how to ensure it isn't repeated must be done, and why a full reassessment of the routing itself may need to be taken into consideration as well. They are why we'll worry about the safety aspects first, and the costs and timeliness second.
Whether one agrees with this mentality or not, it will drive all future decision making. The NPS and others (not CSX) have made that clear.
The ATC does not have the luxury of hoping the footpath over the bridge will be rebuilt anytime soon.
They need to put maximum effort into an alternative route now.
Required shuttles are not a solution.
If Harpers Ferry ends up down a blue blaze, then so be it!
SkeeterPee
01-19-2020, 17:40
I am sure I take far more risk walking along highways with traffic going 50-60 mph while some fools text and drive. How about putting the walkway back on bridge and install a light or horn that goes off when the train is within 5 mins of the bridge. That gives you time to hustle across if you are concerned.
Slo-go'en
01-19-2020, 20:28
If the train only comes through at 3 AM, not much chance of anyone out there. That's what time this happened, right?
AegisIII
01-20-2020, 00:20
Trains also pass on that track during the day. I've seen at least one go by while I was on MD Heights.
A little research (without links) while just killin' time. The track that the derailment occurred on is a dead ended 30+ mile secondary line that serves grain customer(s) in Winchester, VA area. Typically the railroad hauls 50 to 65 loaded grain cars there, then hauls the empties back out. It isn't a heavily used line. The curve radius at the bridge approach is somewhere between 300 and 330 feet. It meets the absolute minimum radius (288 ft) for North American rail lines but not on lines for general service. The minimum radius for general service is 410 ft. The preferred minimum on freight main lines is 574 ft.It's an old bridge (1894), and an old rail system - with sharp curves at the bridge approach that wouldn't likely be built today. Speed and tractive effort/force need to be carefully controlled on short radius curves, which is one of the theories regarding why this accident happened. Short radius curves also have increased rail maintenance and failure issues due to the force of train wheels pushing against the sides of the rails as they go around the curve.
Given that the track right next to the walkway is so infrequently used, it would seem that one possible choice that would both increase safety and expedite resolving the break in the AT footpath would be to rebuild the pedestrian bridge but simply prohibit people from being on it for the few minutes while a train was crossing. Nothing wrong with keeping moving trains and people away from each other.
I think that bridge is also used for amtrak and the commuter lines to DC
What we need is some guy named Harper to bring his ferry back!
4eyedbuzzard
01-20-2020, 02:47
Trains also pass on that track during the day. I've seen at least one go by while I was on MD Heights.Very possibly. Based upon discussions on the cs.trains.com forum, that line is only used for freight (predominantly grain) to customer(s) in Winchester.
I think that bridge is also used for amtrak and the commuter lines to DCThere are two bridges in close proximity there. The Amtrak and commuter trains use the bridge north of the one in question, and go to the HF Train Station and beyond. There are two sets of rails on the south bridge that the AT passes over. The north set of rails ends (abandoned) at the old armory just after it crosses into HF. The south set of rails turns sharply after leaving the bridge and that secondary line goes towards Winchester.
Furlough
01-20-2020, 10:43
Just found out Google Earth street view lets you walk across the bridge :)This confirmed that there are stone pillers for a bridge which used to cross the river, just off to the side of the current tracks. Two of which are still intact and two which are gone. I was pretty sure I had noticed them when I crossed last year. Rather then repair the current walkway, maybe it would be better to build a new foot bridge on the old pillers. These likely date to before the Civil war, so could be of historical significant to restore. But then, it did cost a million dollars to covert an existing RR bridge into a foot path over the James River in VA.
A little more research from the structure magazine finds - Those are the remains of the old Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Bridge orginally built in 1839. A Bollman style Bridge, was erected in 1852, blew up by the Confederates in 1861, it was rebuilt and destroyed several times by both sides during the Civil War. In 1868 it was entirely rebuilt using Bollman iron trusses. Then finally destroyed by the flood of 1936.
Harper’s Ferry Bridge post 1868 from Maryland side, C&O Canal in foreground.
https://www.structuremag.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/0215-hs-2-300x233.jpg
The flood of 1936. Showing the Bollman bridge gone, and the 2 remaining bridges weighted down with coal cars to help keep them in place. At the time of the flood the bridge was being used as toll bridge for wagons and vehicles.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9hod0GfRGbw/XJl2lE1kj9I/AAAAAAABWnw/iLx1DvlgIcIJfJmEJrxUqP3xNrz6wanIgCLcBGAs/s640/2.png
Furlough
01-20-2020, 11:05
.... and this just in from the Harper's Weekly July 6, 1861.
46068
colorado_rob
01-20-2020, 12:19
All super cool and interesting history!
I would fall over from a heart attack if any sort of repair is anywhere close to being soon enough for this main hiking season.
So, I'm still very curious as to what any temporary solution will be.
And I'm also still unclear as to whether one can reasonably safely walk across that existing hwy 340 traffic bridge to the east; from google aerial shots and the one posted below (post 42), it sure looks safe enough, but I'm probably naive on this.
bbikebbs
01-20-2020, 16:52
...snip, snip...
And I'm also still unclear as to whether one can reasonably safely walk across that existing hwy 340 traffic bridge to the east; from google aerial shots and the one posted below (post 42), it sure looks safe enough, but I'm probably naive on this.
Having driven hwy 340 both ways over that bridge many times, I wouldn't be walking it. Not nearly enough room on the shoulders.
Scott
And I'm also still unclear as to whether one can reasonably safely walk across that existing hwy 340 traffic bridge to the east; from google aerial shots and the one posted below (post 42), it sure looks safe enough, but I'm probably naive on this.
from the ATC website---
A.T. hikers with immediate need for transport between Harpers Ferry, West Virginia and Weverton Road, Maryland should arrange for shuttles. Hikers are not advised to walk on Highway 340 to cross into Maryland, as this roadway has narrow shoulders and heavy traffic. Information about available transportation options can be found at appalachiantrail.org/transportation (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/transportation).
from the ATC website---
A.T. hikers with immediate need for transport between Harpers Ferry, West Virginia and Weverton Road, Maryland should arrange for shuttles. Hikers are not advised to walk on Highway 340 to cross into Maryland, as this roadway has narrow shoulders and heavy traffic. Information about available transportation options can be found at appalachiantrail.org/transportation (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/transportation).
not advised to walk = advised not to walk?
colorado_rob
01-20-2020, 19:55
not advised to walk = advised not to walk?
from the ATC website---
A.T. hikers with immediate need for transport between Harpers Ferry, West Virginia and Weverton Road, Maryland should arrange for shuttles. Hikers are not advised to walk on Highway 340 to cross into Maryland, as this roadway has narrow shoulders and heavy traffic. Information about available transportation options can be found at appalachiantrail.org/transportation (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/transportation).
Having driven hwy 340 both ways over that bridge many times, I wouldn't be walking it. Not nearly enough room on the shoulders.
Scott Yes, yes, yes, of course, we've already heard the official ATC position, and I'm not really knocking it, it's probably wise. I'm asking: Has anyone looked at crossing the bridge with their own eyes, not driving but walking, like has anyone stood at one end of the 340 bridge and looked across it and formed an opinion on the safety of crossing it? I'm just curious. Are those concrete barriers in place or are they not?
If anyone wants to hike a continuous line from Springer to Katahdin, it doesn't seem like there are any other choices other than the ATC shuttle, which would work for me, no problem, but some others' "thru hiking ethics" might have issues.
YES, I know the canoe across the Kennebec is not hiking, but at least it's in line with the existing trail and has been in place for a long time. IS a raft ferry across one of those two rivers near HF feasible?
Slo-go'en
01-20-2020, 21:10
Two words : Zip Line.
That would be fun :)
You take your life in your hands crossing the Palisades Parkway in NY. Four lanes of bumper to bumper traffic moving at 70 MPH.
I suppose if you waited for a break in traffic and sprinted, you might be okay. Time of day would be a big factor. You'd think if two cars approached you from different directions, one would slow down until one of them passed you. Signage might help CAUTION : LOOK OUT FOR HIKERS! I'd guess most of traffic is local, so hopefully the residents would be sympathetic.
Furlough
01-20-2020, 21:53
YES, I know the canoe across the Kennebec is not hiking, but at least it's in line with the existing trail and has been in place for a long time. IS a raft ferry across one of those two rivers near HF feasible?
I've taken a raft excursion here and we stopped on the C & O canal side, maybe 20 to 50 steps from the tow path. So, feasible, yes. I think the issue would be sanctioning of the pick/up and drop off locations. Not sure that usage of property would/could be worked out quickly between private land owners, the railroad and or the NPS. Also, possible issues with high waters from time to time will occur.
SkeeterPee
01-20-2020, 23:03
All super cool and interesting history!
I would fall over from a heart attack if any sort of repair is anywhere close to being soon enough for this main hiking season.
So, I'm still very curious as to what any temporary solution will be.
And I'm also still unclear as to whether one can reasonably safely walk across that existing hwy 340 traffic bridge to the east; from google aerial shots and the one posted below (post 42), it sure looks safe enough, but I'm probably naive on this.
Looking at street view in google maps there is a well worn path on both sides of the 340 bridge where someone is walking across the bridge in that walkway. So I suspect it is possible and probably safer than the roads I routinely walk on with only a shoulder and cars zipping by at 50+ mph. I also expect that the ATC won't take the chance of saying it is a viable alternative.
Looking at street view in google maps there is a well worn path on both sides of the 340 bridge where someone is walking across the bridge in that walkway. So I suspect it is possible and probably safer than the roads I routinely walk on with only a shoulder and cars zipping by at 50+ mph. I also expect that the ATC won't take the chance of saying it is a viable alternative.
Is this what you were looking at?
46071
If so, perhaps there are other areas of concern.
SkeeterPee
01-22-2020, 00:00
Is this what you were looking at?
46071
If so, perhaps there are other areas of concern.
yes that is the bridge but if you look at either end you see a clear path worn in the dirt so I would think it gets crossed on foot or bike pretty often. That looks safer than where I walk daily.
gpburdelljr
01-22-2020, 11:28
yes that is the bridge but if you look at either end you see a clear path worn in the dirt so I would think it gets crossed on foot or bike pretty often. That looks safer than where I walk daily.
Don’t you have to walk a pretty good ways on 340, with narrow shoulders, to get from the trail to the bridge?
SkeeterPee
01-22-2020, 12:24
Don’t you have to walk a pretty good ways on 340, with narrow shoulders, to get from the trail to the bridge? I think the bridge would be fine. But I agree the road between the bridge and to the trail does have some sections with only a 2-3 ft shoulder so that would be more of a risk than that bridge. But I suspect locals walk it or ride their bikes on it as I certainly walk on roads like that. That is about 1.5 mile walk from the trail crossing 340 to the bridge we are talking about.
I think the bridge would be fine. But I agree the road between the bridge and to the trail does have some sections with only a 2-3 ft shoulder so that would be more of a risk than that bridge. But I suspect locals walk it or ride their bikes on it as I certainly walk on roads like that. That is about 1.5 mile walk from the trail crossing 340 to the bridge we are talking about.
So absolutely no way for the ATC to find an off road alternative to that road walk?
Understood it wouldn’t be easy, but preserving the AT as unbroken route never has been, right?
Continuity has always been paramount to the ATC’s mission. Having the Trail Pass through HF is a huge plus, but in the end is nowhere near as important.
Hopefully the pain of moving the official route away from the ATC’s headquarters won’t drive the decision and we will learn the ATC is already working on establishing (reestablishing) an acceptably safe new route. This years’s class deserves nothing less.
SkeeterPee
01-22-2020, 16:34
I am planning to thru hike this year so it will be interesting what we do. Leaving in 18 days. I've hiked that section being by passed so it is not a big concern, but I would prefer a walking route even if that means walking into HF and walking back out to go around. I was also considering if we do take a ride to the cliffs, to first backtrack on the path to the HF bridge just to complete all but the actual bridge. that is an easy walk.
I think the bridge would be fine. But I agree the road between the bridge and to the trail does have some sections with only a 2-3 ft shoulder so that would be more of a risk than that bridge. But I suspect locals walk it or ride their bikes on it as I certainly walk on roads like that. That is about 1.5 mile walk from the trail crossing 340 to the bridge we are talking about.
The "old" AT (prior to routing via HF and across the RR bridge walkway) stayed up on the ridge and followed thru Loudoun Heights, and then it descended down to US340. From there hikers continued NOBO along US340, across the Sandy Hook Bridge, and finally connected to the C&O Canal to Weaverton.
Today's auto and truck traffic volume is HUGE and fast compared to those days. The available space to walk, on either side, is mostly narrow, overgrown with weeds and debris -- and very close to the traffic. Undoubtedly walkable, but dangerous. The Sandy Hook Bridge has a walkway which is actually safer than the roadway before and after it.
With the cooperation of Virginia and Maryland Depts of Transportation, with leadership of ATC and PATC, would it be possible to improve the walkway on at least one side, and install a temporary safe crossing of US340 (traffic light) where and if necessary? The AT could be temporarily blazed along this route, with signage directing hikers and other foot traffic?
(As I understand it, re-establishing the old Loudoun Heights routing would be impractical or impossible due to private property issues between the ridge and US340 -- and rehabbing a portion of the US340 berm would still need to be done.).
It sounds like the RR bridge will be closed for at least a year. Widening the US340 walking path, installing Jersey barriers along the edge to protect walkers from drivers, plus other improvements could be done with both safety and cost in mind. Once finished, this temporary trail could be maintained by volunteers like much of the rest of the AT is. Hikers wanting to go into or out of HF could do so following the current blazed trails, but would need to backtrack to rejoin the AT -- not unlike many other trail towns.
It would be reasonable to expect that CSX contribute to the relatively modest costs of this emergency project -- widening the US340 walk, installing Jersey barriers, and a temporary crossing light if it is deemed necessary. It was their negligence that caused last month's derailment which damaged the AT. Meanwhile, planning and reconstruction of the RR walkway could and must proceed; the temporary solution proposed here should not become the permanent solution.
Thus, the AT would again become an unbroken trail from GA>ME, would be safe enough, and could be easily deconstructed when the RR bridge is reopened to foot traffic. For the two DOTs, this would probably be a routine project.
SkeeterPee
01-23-2020, 00:50
The "old" AT (prior to routing via HF and across the RR bridge walkway) stayed up on the ridge and followed thru Loudoun Heights, and then it descended down to US340. From there hikers continued NOBO along US340, across the Sandy Hook Bridge, and finally connected to the C&O Canal to Weaverton.
How would you get down to the towpath after crossing the Sandy Hook Bridge? it seems like tow path is between the river and the old canal. is there a bridge over the canal to the towpath?
I'm not sure that's possible. But it could be with some extra work. The old AT used a short road that doesn't seem to exist any longer. But its resurrection, or something similar, might be feasible if stakeholders agree and the work on the ground could happen efficiently. Crossing the RR tracks? That could be the insurmountable issue.
But for sure, once NOBO hikers cross the Sandy Hook Bridge, they could continue north on US340 until the right turn ramp deposits them onto Keep Tryst Rd. That road connects to the current AT near Weaverton.
How would you get down to the towpath after crossing the Sandy Hook Bridge? ?
jump, little tougher for sobo
SkeeterPee
01-23-2020, 01:23
I'm not sure that's possible. But it could be with some extra work. The old AT used a short road that doesn't seem to exist any longer. But its resurrection, or something similar, might be feasible if stakeholders agree and the work on the ground could happen efficiently. Crossing the RR tracks? That could be the insurmountable issue.
But for sure, once NOBO hikers cross the Sandy Hook Bridge, they could continue north on US340 until the right turn ramp deposits them onto Keep Tryst Rd. That road connects to the current AT near Weaverton.
Oh, right there are tracks and a canal.
I've lived in the area for 30 years and I think the biggest safety issue as that has been stated isn't the bridge. The sandy hook bridge on rt 340,it's getting to the bridge from the Hf bridge . Like skeeterpee said there's only about 2,3' of space to walk to get from 1 bridge to the other. And lots of speeding traffic , then you have in addition to that the Hf river rafting picks up the rafters right before the bridge, right across from there you have a very busy gas station as well as a road that goes up between the bridge and gas station on top of that there's the Hf outdoor center I think it's called were they have a zip line and all kinds of stuff like that. So oh I forgot right before the gas station is a parking lot were they sell popcorn and treats to the tourists. Yes indeed a very busy place in the summer time. You can see there Dilema but tictoc,tictoc.
So then once across the rt 340 bridge you'd have to walk up to keptryst rd. And then turn right on sandy hook rd which is a very tight no room to walk country kind of rd but not as much traffic. But still very dangerous and small rd and the old sandy hook bridge is a one way bridge barely enough for small cars. And eventually down to where the walk bridge that was destroyed and the AT , C&O canal meet.
So how much further is the 340 walk? In miles.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
4eyedbuzzard
01-25-2020, 12:05
Only a few miles difference
So how much further is the 340 walk? In miles.
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I'd say from the Hf bridge to keptryst rd is about 1.5 miles. Or if you keep walking 340 another half mile to the boonsboro exit loop ,rt 68 I think, and take that loop around about a half mile the first rd on the right will take you back to the trail. Weaverton cliffs if someone chose this route they really would only miss the 3 mile walk of the AT, C&O canal combo walk. I hope my explanation is clear if not I can try again.
Nope, that’s good!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Nope, that’s good!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
No no way to make a trail?
The ATC helped find a solution for a couple thousand miles elsewhere.
Rickb. I know you're quoting Deacon and my apologies if it appears as if I'm trying to thread take over or be a know it all, but that is definitely not my intentions. My only interest here is to warn people how dangerous this diversion walk is. The thing is it's rather unique area as your stuck between 2 rivers the Potomac and the Shenandoah. I don't know if someone can Google earth and post? But a couple of posts ago I'm not exaggerating one bit all that goes on in the summer months between the 1/2 mile of the 2 bridges. That's is probably the ATC'S biggest concern. No one rides there bikes through here and the only people walking around here are walking the river side of 340 to access the river for swimming, sunbathing. And I don't think Jersey barriers are an option because one side of 340 is right against the mountain, the river side possibly but with all the activity in that area I just don't think so. The one good thing is there is no more parking on the river side of 340 between the bridges, that really got crazy crowded out of control. I hope no one gets hurt under estimating this dangerous area.
bbikebbs
01-25-2020, 19:49
Here's a link https://www.instantstreetview.com/@39.321011,-77.718847,118.46h,-2.97p,1z that you can look at US340 along the stretch we're talking about. Hopefully, you can scroll back and forth and see what the concern is with walking this stretch. Notice the "shear" cliff on one side and the Potomac River drop off on the other.
Scott
Yes awesome, thanks so much for that link. That's a great example of some of the dangers of this walk. Notice the cars on and crossing the white line, probably staring at their phones checking their Facebook status. But anyway right around that next curve is where it gets really interestingly dangerous with all that touristy stuff I described earlier.
Seems like the ATC could implement a temporary canoe crossing similar to that on the Kennebec in Maine.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Slo-go'en
01-25-2020, 23:16
Man, there really isn't any other way across with in reason. It's either walk the 340 or swim.
gpburdelljr
01-25-2020, 23:25
Man, there really isn't any other way across with in reason. It's either walk the 340 or swim.
Or, as suggested by the ATC, use a shuttle. Eventually the ATC will implement something else, either a rebuilt footbridge, or a reroute. It’ll happen when it happens. There’s no point to fretting about things we have no control over.
Man, there really isn't any other way across with in reason. It's either walk the 340 or swim.
So absolutely no way to move the road walk off the road?
The ATC has had great success doing that in other places, why not here?
Or, as suggested by the ATC, use a shuttle. Eventually the ATC will implement something else, either a rebuilt footbridge, or a reroute. It’ll happen when it happens. There’s no point to fretting about things we have no control over.
.......................................:confused: , :-? , :datz. !!
Furlough
01-26-2020, 09:50
I was looking at the River Riders Web site this morning and see that they are a Gold Sponsor of the ATC. There may be an opportunity there.
Slo-go'en
01-26-2020, 10:34
So absolutely no way to move the road walk off the road?
The ATC has had great success doing that in other places, why not here?
If you take a walk on the road via Google Earth street view, you can see why. There does look to be a reasonably wide shoulder for most of the distance on the river side, but it does narrow down and nearly disappears in places. The posted speed limit is 45, so you can bet most are going 55.
Just noticed another thing. There is no pedestrian foot path across the sandy hook bridge. Jersey barriers are right up against the old cast iron guard rails and there is no shoulder. Plus I saw big rigs on the road leading up to the bridge. No way would I try to walk across there, except maybe at 3 in morning.
The only other option would be to re-route the trail to come down the east side of the ridge to get closer to the 340 bridge crossing. However, the east side of the ridge has a number of houses on it. I would guess most of that land is private property. It might be possible to cut through someone's backyard to connect to one of the roads that goes up the side of the ridge. But cutting a new trail is something that takes years too. Still have the problem of getting across the bridge safely.
Guess it's a good thing I did HF NOBO last spring :)
The ATC put out an update on the HF bridge, not much new:
"The #AppalachianTrail (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/appalachiantrail?source=feed_text&epa=HASHTAG&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARAlbke1aZtt3j9q6QBj1oBqpAATka64 CJtF-NH9XVVDUZQLczmQRGZwirHWXBXyVLJv18Uaqq72JRGaQCBSRmD Mco2IqJUOxU2z2Of3ou23PyURlXfAaJYCyRdjbpIrTQhuaG0aH xhUsN4_jqGP674iVt6h-Mx9XuQKljF3wsMIWJFlXzZd-LDYUnOuZp4zvpL79V62Of92Zakqpq3LGiaxJn6DLCWQoiQ-vpqqUR26QbkOzIVlRljniObt8s_Fk65NjGRaPsTbSBmoxeUfNP tu1LVGExG924xzr8UZCNEiDBOzrs_X8raNqrETDTjM__6fHHnR OCf87lwLhA&__tn__=%2ANK-R) footbridge crossing the Potomac River in Harpers Ferry is still out of commission following the train derailment on Dec. 21, 2019, negotiations are underway to ensure that the footbridge is restored as quickly as possible.Details on the restoration and timetable for reopening the footbridge have not been finalized, however — while the footbridge remains closed, hikers should continue to make their own arrangements for shuttle services to bypass the closure.
Hikers are not advised to walk on Highway 340 to cross into Maryland, as this roadway has narrow shoulders and heavy traffic. Information about available transportation options can be found at appalachiantrail.org/transportation (https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fappalachiantrail.org%2Ftransp ortation%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR2q7r7TvP2PMj1Qh1PCU2t6HNe8 TAi84i8iVFiqD9TMTq5DYWtZk0GmlHc&h=AT0gwMIj0uicXBvvvQYIqCBotCwbzSSieChfJSBkg-yKVZmmnli-OYTYcVfaPqXo3ltlVGN7QIP2GX1rQRyhOGxOIA-KJoeYaXffbmtwucdW_ijPhcsFmJzSi6xy0AplQlQnohebUciG1 HYGyr0kjgwjoQUD0-MX06oghWpcaaApoE_JN1FV2rDYp3bPJ5gXkng8H_wjZQz0fmIT 68SexurfCr6-kw_fzYoE08heGvjVBl5oKD1lf673UWc0zD2dEzDiZin4NxZE_Y FRkFtJirDnLM-nxmoQ4-RtGClvagv8q4sguM1lDUJX0Z065COIg0rxDp24QwTD9dwIxGzM v0r-QsTY-IUwd9AIyJu-qGcV3JbdGch19qE-meETs7kTiI0za80bu-f1bO2O7GiVICK6FJ7gpAABb3Kjy27No1g0oQHT8OxLgfBHk8kp i8h5aWGVOkMXCakYVYkEvsxM47KU5YPSM-HQGATdT16WetsBKuz0_FKcOdZlnjM4oW0gKgsp6rAeSYWcDJvM hBFomRhzwVl0qG7JqLn-4g49Y8SGRsq5huTSDIZcB89e0s5MU86V51GEnxalBPaxN8Ve7q JFx4kZfs83M2tFa0-nphzAjfiOW-kLJiJiVkfQ)."
https://www.facebook.com/ATHike/?__tn__=kCH-R&eid=ARDs09myzin19ZPSlrQGdLYMxCm1nBDKf-dZ-oVVw4S3NpaiShHjpKXJNbP8NASjIAet8ig6KJPmvSct&hc_ref=ARQkYDiPGxkkDFaxjFcvIOnKL0-bTTACDv4kyupG8jKCJ71YOFXZ-4krrlGRJTdJYrg&fref=nf&__xts__[0]=68.ARDlM70RZMQATJmXCwmrQ3HMGXTc5T2138EKOtAJfVTteI ZO3qXL8JXs3QIkHFAlu5gjcwC3BsmQdKOLCVi5tzJwMINF2ayK Kec8Lu9V0KdkYqkxJ8jz3rEcSpz7u-fmaPx6J3nMo8rjLDGZ6LfCtt54XqSWMgvoKU5WDGaHlml31Eq5 QxEdK49i4HbV9BaKY2HLDA26hMGQVcbS-JckwB3tjIBi59KBmHZFVTdEeUlFzEBNc6R0s6vf-eQKZ28uAEfRo0dCDByHhW-bnaBjj8twUYce1sJBxXACDE1Yh6f0JyS9sUc7WzSLd6vwiy5pZ L_xjz2Nzm-bHvy2UulFasmAfA9M-7g15Qd-JEsNtUBpKvXFqq9i
Good to hear negotiations are under way with contractors to repair the footway over the river.
SkeeterPee
01-31-2020, 22:59
Good to hear negotiations are under way with contractors to repair the footway over the river.
I saw his, but it seemed to say the same thing they said a month ago? Did you see something that they are talking with contractors?
Traveler
02-01-2020, 09:29
I saw his, but it seemed to say the same thing they said a month ago? Did you see something that they are talking with contractors?
It's a pretty complex process with a lot of moving parts that have to be addressed prior to engaging contractors who will do the actual rebuilding. Financial responsibility alone may become a litigious hurdle prior to performing the engineering work and develop plans that will need review and permitting before much visible work can start. While this may be fast tracked, it will still take a few months to get things sorted out.
In the meantime, there is a business opportunity there for the entrepreneur.
It's a pretty complex process with a lot of moving parts that have to be addressed prior to engaging contractors who will do the actual rebuilding. Financial responsibility alone may become a litigious hurdle prior to performing the engineering work and develop plans that will need review and permitting before much visible work can start. While this may be fast tracked, it will still take a few months to get things sorted out.
In the meantime, there is a business opportunity there for the entrepreneur.
So no party has taken the lead on rebuilding the bridge yet?
If so, the ATC needs to get moving on a re-route now.
Having an incomplete Trail is not acceptable, and is dangerous!
bbikebbs
02-01-2020, 18:23
So no party has taken the lead on rebuilding the bridge yet?
If so, the ATC needs to get moving on a re-route now.
Having an incomplete Trail is not acceptable, and is dangerous!
I agree with you but have you let the ATC know directly? I know Laurie follows the forum, but making direct contact with them will send a more urgent message. Here's the page for contact details:
http://appalachiantrail.org/home/about-us/get-in-touch
Scott
gpburdelljr
02-01-2020, 19:54
So no party has taken the lead on rebuilding the bridge yet?
If so, the ATC needs to get moving on a re-route now.
Having an incomplete Trail is not acceptable, and is dangerous!
You can always take a shuttle, as recommended the ATC, until the bridge is rebuilt. The ATC, and NPS, have limited budgets. It’s quite possible that the RR, or their insurance, will pay to rebuild the foot bridge. A reroute of the trail could be costly to get the proper easements, and build the reroute. I think it is perfectly reasonable for hikers to use a shuttle until the footbridge is rebuilt.
Slo-go'en
02-01-2020, 20:43
You can always take a shuttle, as recommended the ATC, until the bridge is rebuilt.
That will likely be the only real option for a while. The only question is how long? A season or two? Apparently it's illegal to hitchhike on the 340, but one might chat up a tourist leaving town in that direction...
I’ll be damned if I waited 15 years to thru hike and end up taking a yellow blaze? Not going to happen.
I suspect this will take a couple of years to work out. First there has to be a determination for responsibility (all RR fault or perhaps some other factor/party has partial). Then there has to be some sort of determination of how much liability they bare and an attempt to settlement. This could be fast or dragged out for years in legal limbo. Then there is getting the bridge replaced. Are there new regulations that require new environmental studies to be performed? Finding someone who can do the work within the financial limitations of the settlement and then getting the thing actually built. Unless the government steps in with some financial backing to help move things along, I betting on 5 years. Someone want to start a poll on how long they think?
gpburdelljr
02-01-2020, 21:22
I’ll be damned if I waited 15 years to thru hike and end up taking a yellow blaze? Not going to happen.
Then don’t go, or you could carry a piece of white tape and put in on the shuttle at HF, then it is no different than riding the canoe across the Kennebec river crossing.
Then don’t go, or you could carry a piece of white tape and put in on the shuttle at HF, then it is no different than riding the canoe across the Kennebec river crossing.
You hike your hike. I’ll hike mine.
You hike your hike. I’ll hike mine.
I think as of now they're only offering shuttles to weaverton? Maybe by the time thru hikers start coming through someone will be offering shuttles to sandy hook rd . That would put you right across the bridge on the c&o, AT . If not you'll have to back track the 3.5 miles or so . It's pretty easy to do , if you don't want to miss any steps it's a nice easy flat walk along the river. ( AT- c&o canal) .
Then don’t go, or you could carry a piece of white tape and put in on the shuttle at HF, then it is no different than riding the canoe across the Kennebec river crossing.
The Blaze on the canoe is cute, but it’s not the Trail.
Hikers are traveling over the AT as it crosses the Kennebec River— even if they are in canoe.
Taking a shuttle out of (or into) Harpers Ferry is fundamentally different.
gpburdelljr
02-01-2020, 22:40
You hike your hike. I’ll hike mine.
Since a shuttle at HF is unacceptable to you, I assume you won’t start a thru hike until the bridge is rebuilt. I hope you don’t have to wait another 15 years until everything is perfect for your hike.
they can pay for a shuttle and deal with it
Nothing to do with money.
gpburdelljr
02-01-2020, 22:49
You hike your hike. I’ll hike mine.
Since a shuttle at HF is unacceptable to you, I assume you won’t start a thru hike until the bridge is rebuilt. I hope you don’t have to wait another 15 years until everything is perfect for your hike.
Since a shuttle at HF is unacceptable to you, I assume you won’t start a thru hike until the bridge is rebuilt. I hope you don’t have to wait another 15 years until everything is perfect for your hike.
Road walks were the norm for decades — I recall taking one that was 20 miles long.
Taking a road walk is not Yellow blazing.
The issue is safety. The ATC need to address the safety issue in a way that does not require a yellow blaze (shuttle).
Continuity of the Trail is central to its identity. Passing through the picturesque town of Harpers Ferry (however nice that it may be) is not.
4eyedbuzzard
02-01-2020, 22:56
Just a wild guess, but I'm thinking ATC likely knows just a bit more about the big picture than what many here are speculating.
Since a shuttle at HF is unacceptable to you, I assume you won’t start a thru hike until the bridge is rebuilt. I hope you don’t have to wait another 15 years until everything is perfect for your hike.
You hike your hike. I’ll hike mine. Sorry mine doesn’t suit your needs. Best of luck to you on your 2020 thru.
Road walks were the norm for decades — I recall taking one that was 20 miles long.
Taking a road walk is not Yellow blazing.
The issue is safety. The ATC need to address the safety issue in a way that does not require a yellow blaze (shuttle).
Continuity of the Trail is central to its identity. Passing through the picturesque town of Harpers Ferry (however nice that it may be) is not.
The road walk is not a option, Far to dangerous ! I wonder how difficult it would be to install a locked gate on the Hf side and install a locked gate where it's safe to use the walk bridge again? And have someone unlock these gates when they know no trains would be coming. Just thinking out loud.
As a matter fact I wouldn't be surprised if there is not road signs put in place soon stating no pedestrian walking on 340. You'd be going from wv, through va, and into md. In this short couple miles. (3 state challenge) lol. But if they decide to this they'll be watching and issuing tickets, just to keep someone from getting hurt or worse.
Just a wild guess, but I'm thinking ATC likely knows just a bit more about the big picture than what many here are speculating.
Agree and it's been long enough they really should come out with some sort of statement.
SkeeterPee
02-02-2020, 00:24
Agree and it's been long enough they really should come out with some sort of statement. I agree, this statement was no different than their original. They should be notifying their membership with some facts monthly.
The road walk is not a option, Far to dangerous ! I wonder how difficult it would be to install a locked gate on the Hf side and install a locked gate where it's safe to use the walk bridge again? And have someone unlock these gates when they know no trains would be coming. Just thinking out loud.
Which is why the ATC needs to get out in front of this now.
They don’t have the luxury of waiting until someone is hurt or killed.
You make a persuasive case about the dangers of walking on that road, however I expect that you may not have investigated the possibility of a parallel pathway outside of the guardrail, or all possible alternative temporary reroutes. Or all the other options that respect the continuity of a passable from Maine to Georgia in an unbroken line without yellow blazing. The ATC needs to do this.
A shuttle is not a good option — and thinking that it is a safe temporary solution is ignoring human nature. It does not matter if it drops you off on the other side or if you can debarked the shuttle and back track to the other side. Continuity is important to many thru hikes and to the trail itself.
In the early 80’s the ATC went to great expense to establish a Ferry (canoe w guide) over the Kennebec after a thru hiker drowned. They did this because they understood that human nature being what it is, many hikers would not wait or call for a boat.
No way of knowing if this commitment saved lives, but a lot of people think it did. Most everyone agrees that traveling in canoe over the AT is a compatible with the essence of a thru hike. It was a wise decision.
The ATC needs to do something now — beyond suggesting a yellow blaze — before there is another tragedy.
I’ll be damned if I waited 15 years to thru hike and end up taking a yellow blaze? Not going to happen.
The bridge reroute might not be your only alternate route. After starting on GA 5 months prior in 2011 I had to take my first blue blaze, a high water alternate route in Baxter SP when Hurricane Irene dumped 10" of rain.
Then there's reroute when they close sections of the trail due to fires. And the HF bridge in the past has occasionally been closed due to high water.
Dealing with these issues is all part of a Thru-hike.
Lone Wolf
02-02-2020, 10:36
I’ll be damned if I waited 15 years to thru hike and end up taking a yellow blaze? Not going to happen.
guess you'll have to wait a year or two more
guess you'll have to wait a year or two more
A yellow blaze is when you get in a motor vehicle to advance down the AT.
Walking around an impassable/closed section is not a “yellow blaze” even if you do so on a roadway.
That can be done as of today — albeit not in a safe way. That is why the ATC is not recommending that individual choice.
You are to be commended for your concern for Tabasco’s safety, however.
The ATC needs to do something quickly to help insure he and others have a safe alternative which allow them to traverse the AT from Maine to Georgia in an unbroken line.
That has been central to their mission for decades.
Slo-go'en
02-02-2020, 11:04
Which is why the ATC needs to get out in front of this now.
You make a persuasive case about the dangers of walking on that road, however I expect that you may not have investigated the possibility of a parallel pathway outside of the guardrail, or all possible alternative temporary reroutes. Or all the other options that respect the continuity of a passable from Maine to Georgia in an unbroken line without yellow blazing. The ATC needs to do this.
The ATC needs to do something now — beyond suggesting a yellow blaze — before there is another tragedy.
Use Google Earth street view to "walk" the 340 and you'll see the problem. Making a parallel walkway does not look to be practical, besides the fact you'd need 3 different state's DOT to work on the project. It would be a major disruption of traffic while the work was being done and that would likely kill the idea right there.
The real kicker looks to be the Sandy Hook bridge. It's hard to tell for sure, but it doesn't look like there is a pedestrian walkway across that bridge and it's barely wide enough for cars to pass each other without taking out the side view mirrors.
The only other bridges across the river are a long way off and the roads they are on head in the wrong direction. It would be an insanely long detour.
While there might be a few people who would be upset about not being able to walk across the river, I'm sure the vast majority will have no ethical problem with the shuttle.
I did the 20 mile Cumberland valley road walk back in the day. It was actually a pleasant walk along shady rural roads with little or no traffic. Which apparently is no longer the case, one of the reasons the route was moved to the farm fields.
Use Google Earth street view to "walk" the 340 and you'll see the problem. Making a parallel walkway does not look to be practical, besides the fact you'd need 3 different state's DOT to work on the project. It would be a major disruption of traffic while the work was being done and that would likely kill the idea right there.
The real kicker looks to be the Sandy Hook bridge. It's hard to tell for sure, but it doesn't look like there is a pedestrian walkway across that bridge and it's barely wide enough for cars to pass each other without taking out the side view mirrors.
.
In an earlier post I linked a photo of the bridge. To my eye it looks like there is a clear and obvious pathway that is separated from lane of traffic by a Jersey Barrier.
i stand and to be corrected on that, as I have not made any direct observation.
In an earlier post I linked a photo of the bridge. To my eye it looks like there is a clear and obvious pathway that is separated from lane of traffic by a Jersey Barrier.
i stand and to be corrected on that, as I have not made any direct observation.
The sandy hook bridge itself would be the safest part of this walk. There's room between the jerseys and the rail.
I’ll be damned if I waited 15 years to thru hike and end up taking a yellow blaze? Not going to happen.
How good a swimmer are ya!
guess you'll have to wait a year or two more
That’s where you would be wrong.
A yellow blaze is when you get in a motor vehicle to advance down the AT.
Walking around an impassable/closed section is not a “yellow blaze” even if you do so on a roadway.
That can be done as of today — albeit not in a safe way. That is why the ATC is not recommending that individual choice.
You are to be commended for your concern for Tabasco’s safety, however.
The ATC needs to do something quickly to help insure he and others have a safe alternative which allow them to traverse the AT from Maine to Georgia in an unbroken line.
That has been central to their mission for decades.
Rick gets it. I’m not worried about a road walk. But I will not be riding in a car to advance on the trail. They have got 4 months to figure it out, otherwise I will figure it out myself when I get there. Improvidus, Apto, Quod Victum.
Slo-go'en
02-02-2020, 15:39
The sandy hook bridge itself would be the safest part of this walk. There's room between the jerseys and the rail.
Okay, that wasn't clear from street view. It looked like the barriers were right up against the cast iron railings. Couldn't get good close up view from above.
If your going to do this road walk, I'd suggest doing it at 3AM on a Sunday morning.
SkeeterPee
02-02-2020, 20:25
Okay, that wasn't clear from street view. It looked like the barriers were right up against the cast iron railings. Couldn't get good close up view from above.
If your going to do this road walk, I'd suggest doing it at 3AM on a Sunday morning.
Friday afternoon in the summer is probably good as traffic is moving about 5mph into HF, unless I have been unlucky the times I drove there.
Slo-go'en
02-02-2020, 20:32
Friday afternoon in the summer is probably good as traffic is moving about 5mph into HF, unless I have been unlucky the times I drove there.
Hum, there is that. You could probably score treats along the way too :)
LazyLightning
02-02-2020, 23:18
The 3am idea actually isn't bad with something a little extra reflective and bright lights to flash and make yourself obvious as far to the side as you can get, when a car is coming.... not that the ATC will recommend middle of the night road walks only but that's probably what I'd do.
Alligator
02-03-2020, 18:07
So the trail has never had a closure before where a walkaround was impractical? Like a fire?
People are taking umbrage because there's no "official walking reroute"? Do people feel that the ATC saying to take a shuttle is not the official reroute?
If you were in Harpers Ferry thruhiking just 10 minutes before this happened, wouldn't you just have gone around it and called it good? Or would you have gone home?
I'm sure there's a way to walk around it safely, just might take a few days or weeks. Walk around it they'll give you the patch.
When a bridge washes out are you going to split hairs about which rocks you cross? Downstream or upstream? You just figure out how to cross safely and keep going.
peakbagger
02-03-2020, 18:13
Just need to duplicate Kennebec River Crossing system. Not like they dont have it down to an art after all these years.
Old Grouse
02-03-2020, 18:22
As has been pointed out earlier, the Army of Northern Virginia waded across and back twice, a little upstream from there.
The continuity of the AT matters — a great deal.
Hikers have the ability to walk around the obstacle now.
Issue is that this option is not all that safe.
The ATC cannot say is that a shuttle is the official trail — that is not in their purview.
They can offer that as an option, for those who wish to miss some of the AT and not travel in an unbroken path. Good for some, perhaps most.
Regardless, the ATC needs to put maximum effort into helping find the safest possible option for those intent on walking/paddling all the way with out a yellow blaze.
A shuttle is not sufficient.
So the trail has never had a closure before where a walkaround was impractical? Like a fire?
People are taking umbrage because there's no "official walking reroute"? Do people feel that the ATC saying to take a shuttle is not the official reroute?
If you were in Harpers Ferry thruhiking just 10 minutes before this happened, wouldn't you just have gone around it and called it good? Or would you have gone home?
I'm sure there's a way to walk around it safely, just might take a few days or weeks. Walk around it they'll give you the patch.
When a bridge washes out are you going to split hairs about which rocks you cross? Downstream or upstream? You just figure out how to cross safely and keep going.
Yep, yep and yep, suck it up butter cups and go with the flow. But I have to add I can kinda understand the frustration, as a walk around really isn't or shouldn't be a option because of the dangerous road conditions and a shuttle really is the only option.is anyone at this time offering shuttles around to sandy hook rd right across the bridge where the AT meets the c&o ? Or is there only shuttles available to weaverton?
Alligator
02-04-2020, 00:22
The continuity of the AT matters — a great deal.
Hikers have the ability to walk around the obstacle now.
Issue is that this option is not all that safe.
The ATC cannot say is that a shuttle is the official trail — that is not in their purview.
They can offer that as an option, for those who wish to miss some of the AT and not travel in an unbroken path. Good for some, perhaps most.
Regardless, the ATC needs to put maximum effort into helping find the safest possible option for those intent on walking/paddling all the way with out a yellow blaze.
A shuttle is not sufficient.Not sufficient? I guess a flip flop is not sufficient either? There's a shuttle smack-dab in the middle of that one. Continuity broken. Take a shuttle into town, forget to cross the road. Continuity broken.
The ATC says
In the event of an emergency, such as a flood, a forest fire, or an impending storm, blue-blazed trails or officially required roadwalks are viable substitutes for the white-blazed route.If a hiker takes a shuttle and eventually walks back to the other side of the bridge and continues their hike, that's not good enough? Because a train derailed on a bridge?? You're calling it a yellow blaze, you going to call the hiker a yellow blazer for taking the safest route under the circumstances of a train derailing?
Hikers have been shuttled around closures before, forest fires, prescribed burns, hurricanes. It's just a temporary reroute, folks need to learn to cope with it. The trail is over 2000 miles long. There will be some disturbances at times.
IslandPete
02-04-2020, 09:26
Just a little way up river, you could probably walk right across.
Slo-go'en
02-04-2020, 11:28
Just a little way up river, you could probably walk right across.
Maybe in July when the water level is low. In the spring, not a chance. Then there is the little problem of where to get access to the river and how to climb the embankment on the other side.
4eyedbuzzard
02-04-2020, 11:30
Many of us who hiked the AT back in the "good old days" of private land and road walks before the corridor was protected are having a bit of a chuckle at some of the outrage this 2 -3 mile closure/detour has generated. The trail is still 99.9% intact. It's not that big a deal. Thru-hikers are supposed to be resourceful right? Honestly, just figure out a way around it until the situation is resolved.
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Maybe in July when the water level is low. In the spring, not a chance. Then there is the little problem of where to get access to the river and how to climb the embankment on the other side.
Yeah I was gonna make the exact same comment. The Potomac river right through there is decieptful with its under currents and crevices within the rocks. You end up in one of those and you're not coming out until the river decides to let you out.!
peakbagger
02-04-2020, 13:57
The Kennebec in Maine is also a fickle beast especially when they open up the dams up river to supply Boston in the AM. Folks have started walking across and got caught by the change in flow. There have been drownings and near drownings. Nothing can cross it in the spring during breakup.
Lone Wolf
02-04-2020, 14:20
Many of us who hiked the AT back in the "good old days" of private land and road walks before the corridor was protected are having a bit of a chuckle at some of the outrage this 2 -3 mile closure/detour has generated. The trail is still 99.9% intact. It's not that big a deal. Thru-hikers are supposed to be resourceful right? Honestly, just figure out a way around it until the situation is resolved.
yup. really no big deal. walk the roads or shuttle. simple
gpburdelljr
02-04-2020, 14:41
Many of us who hiked the AT back in the "good old days" of private land and road walks before the corridor was protected are having a bit of a chuckle at some of the outrage this 2 -3 mile closure/detour has generated. The trail is still 99.9% intact. It's not that big a deal. Thru-hikers are supposed to be resourceful right? Honestly, just figure out a way around it until the situation is resolved.
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I suspect some of the comments were made just to stir things up.
LazyLightning
02-04-2020, 16:22
Just a little way up river, you could probably walk right across.
That's easy to misjudge to, the river looks pretty wide...
Me and my buddy tried crossing a much smaller river that looked like we could just walk across. It was the Westfield River on the Metacomet-Monadnock Trail in MA, we got to it and decided it didn't look close to over our heads and should be able to walk right across. Long story short we're up to our necks approaching mid river holding our heavy packs over our heads and ended up having to turn around. It was probably only a few steps that was over our head but we both agreed it wasn't worth going for it trying to hold your pack with one hand. The flow of the river seemed super mellow, even when we were in it, until you try taking your feet off the ground (holding a pack)
I'm sure the people fishing on the other side right up stream had a good laugh at that one...
IslandPete
02-04-2020, 17:04
Maybe in July when the water level is low. In the spring, not a chance. Then there is the little problem of where to get access to the river and how to climb the embankment on the other side.
Yea, maybe not in the spring, but in the summer you can’t tube that section without using your hands to keep your butt off the bottom. If I was as upset about continuity as some of these guys, I’d probably trot across on the tracks.
HooKooDooKu
02-04-2020, 17:15
If the 'powers that be' were willing, I looks like it would be possible to setup a system that would allow the use of the undamaged section of the bridge.
Looking at the bridge in Google Earth, there is a secondary spur track between the trestle and the shore. The pedestrian bridge appears undamaged between the 1st support pier beyond the trestle, and the spur looks to be just an occasional offload point.
I would be "possible" to safely walk that spur track between the shore and the 1st pier beyond the trestle, then cross the tracks to the pedestrian bridge.
But at the same time, I know the railroad isn't going to allow that... for starters, even if the bridge is 4' wide, they are not going to allow pedestrians until a guard rail of some sort were installed. Nor do I see the railroad being too happy with pedestrians crossing a set of tracks that are not at a "crossing". I also don't know how much (if at all) this old off-load point is ever still used for anything (like railway maintenance).
Many of us who hiked the AT back in the "good old days" of private land and road walks before the corridor was protected are having a bit of a chuckle at some of the outrage this 2 -3 mile closure/detour has generated. The trail is still 99.9% intact. It's not that big a deal. Thru-hikers are supposed to be resourceful right? Honestly, just figure out a way around it until the situation is resolved.
I hear you. Forty-five years ago trail closures and temporary relocations were common occurrences. I think some are making a mountain out of a molehlll. I am sure the ATC is doing everything in their power to remedy this situation, especially since it is in the backyard of their headquarters.
I hear you. Forty-five years ago trail closures and temporary relocations were common occurrences. I think some are making a mountain out of a molehlll. I am sure the ATC is doing everything in their power to remedy this situation, especially since it is in the backyard of their headquarters.
I'm sure the ATC and the town of Hf is doing everything in their power to get that walk bridge repaired. That's a big attraction to the town, people walk across to access the canal and md heights as there really is no parking over on the other side.
After waiting for my account validation, finally I can contribute to the discussion.
Here is another detour option, but only for early risers. The MARC commuter trains stop at Harpers Ferry and then at Brunswick, MD.
https://www.mta.maryland.gov/schedule/timetable/marc-brunswick
At least in theory, it would be possible to ride the commuter train to Brunswick, then hike 3 miles west on the C&O Canal towpath, and pick up the AT again.
I have not tried this, so if anyone does please let the forum know.
Tuxhiker
02-07-2020, 23:31
That's an interesting idea! Does the train run every day?
AegisIII
02-08-2020, 00:04
Glancing at their schedule, and if I understand it (far from given), NOBOs would pretty much have to overnight in HF to catch the train. I suspect it would be easier for SOBOs, as the trains will likely be late afternoon/early evening for them. Though this steel blazing option may be the most realistic in the short term.
Another option would be a back-roads walk to Sheperdstown (12-15 mi), cross the Potomac on the good bridge there, and take the Canal back down to HF (another 12 mi IIRC). There'd be lodging in S-town, and are a couple of campsites along the Canal.
I suppose one could dream up a route to use the Brunswick bridge, but a R-O-W would need to be established to get over Short Hill Mountain. And that bridge also has narrow, non-separated sidewalks (though usable, as I remember being on it when I was a kid).
Or have HFNHP set up a trolley service on the spur rail bridge (including the old main line now-spur) to get between states. That would also help with normal Canal access and MD Heights. Though I feel safe in saying that's not going to happen.
Finally, just reroute the railline to connect with the main CSX line somewhere west of HF. Now the footbridge part of the bridge can be widened to be the whole bridge. Probably the ideal solution, if it is possible.
gpburdelljr
02-08-2020, 16:27
That's an interesting idea! Does the train run every day?
Looking at schedules it appears to only run on weekdays, and only in the morning for northbound. $7.
Glancing at their schedule, and if I understand it (far from given), NOBOs would pretty much have to overnight in HF to catch the train. I suspect it would be easier for SOBOs, as the trains will likely be late afternoon/early evening for them. Though this steel blazing option may be the most realistic in the short term.
This is an excellent option for NOBO hikers hitting HF during a weekday, Train 878 departing HF at 6:50am, arriving at Brunswick at 7:05.
SOBOs wouldn't get to HF from Brunswick until 9:05pm.
Thanks Aegis!
Actually that was reeseb's idea. Thanks and welcome to WB.
After waiting for my account validation, finally I can contribute to the discussion.
Here is another detour option, but only for early risers. The MARC commuter trains stop at Harpers Ferry and then at Brunswick, MD.
https://www.mta.maryland.gov/schedule/timetable/marc-brunswick
At least in theory, it would be possible to ride the commuter train to Brunswick, then hike 3 miles west on the C&O Canal towpath, and pick up the AT again.
I have not tried this, so if anyone does please let the forum know.
This is a viable option, one that has not been mentioned. I think the train in Brunswick is really close to the canal as well, just a couple hundred ft. I believe. Thanks for giving folks another option and throwing into the mix . And. :welcome.
The East Bound (what NOBOS would use) MARC station is about 200' from the Canal. Then it's a 3 mile walk to where the AT leaves the Canal towpath, same distance as you would walk coming from HF.
BlackCloud
02-12-2020, 00:22
Well, if you're NB, best get up early:
https://www.mta.maryland.gov/schedule/timetable/marc-brunswick
0525
0550
0650
First train for SB hikers would be @ 1651...
And remember, no trains on weekends...
Alligator
02-12-2020, 10:53
Maybe they ATC could install a handcar https://i.ytimg.com/vi/jo24NR7e4ew/hqdefault.jpg