Troubleshooting Cat Stove - pls help

[Time Zone]

Disappointing performance with fancy feast stove (just the can and holes) this past weekend in 40F weather, minimal wind (about 0-3 mph). Setup is:

- stove insulated from cold ground via wood, and a foil covered foam disc under it.
- allowed bloom time 30-60 sec depending on which "trial"
- with and without Al flashing windscreen. Seemed to be oxygen starved with it (in the AM, but not previous night). Windscreen elevated about 1/4" off surface with binder clips, to allow for airflow. Screen open about 1" on handle side of pot; otherwise was about 1/4" to 1/2" clearance around the pot circumference
- water may have been close to ambient temperature, as it was sitting out overnight as the temp dropped to upper 30s by dawn
- pot used was IMUSA 0.7 qt (660 ml) aluminum mug, approx 3.75" diameter. Fancy feast can is 2.25" diameter
- denatured alcohol used (from Lowes)

the water did warm, but never got to rolling boil or even simmer. I recently started using Al pots to help with heat transfer (vs. stainless) but this cold weather performance was really disappointing. I did notice the handle warming more if I let it hover over the can, instead of resting it on there ... indicating better heat transfer.

I like the pots I have, but they may be relatively narrow for their capacity: 3.25", 3.75", 4.25", for 710ml, 660ml, and 1.4L, respectively. Is it possible I have the wrong kind of alcohol stove for pots of these diameters? For the pots I have, Would a "top burner" or stand help? If the windscreen is always going to be open on one side due to handle, is elevating it for airflow unnecessary?
Only rolling boil I got was previous night when it was probably in the mid 40s. Picture attached showing flames relative to pot. Flames (when they finally showed up) were mostly blue, but the occasional yellow flame appeared.

46140

[V Eight]

Not a stove or cookware expert. My experience only.

I use the fancy feast stove. Just the can with paper punch holes. In temps below 50 I use an aluminum disk that is a little bigger than the stove and a 4" tall wind screen, that can be adjusted to hug my pot (gsi 1qt kettel 6" base) or out to leave an inch all the way around.

I get the disk and stove in a stable location. Add fuel (sometimes Heat sometime de-alk) put maybe half teaspoon of fuel on the disk light both stove and disk. My kettle and windscreen are at hand. My wind screen will be somewhat loose around everything. I slowly lower the kettle down to the stove and boil water.
I learned here to put a little fuel in the disk here years ago. It helps heat the fuel faster, allowing it to "bloom" faster. I have used this method for years in temp's in the teens all over GA,NC and VA.

Note: I do have more holes in my can than the stove in the pic. Just an observation.

Anyway, that's what I do. ymmv

[Time Zone]

Thanks, V Eight ... I wonder if the difference in our experiences is more in the priming or the fact that you're using a 6" pot.

6" is quite a bit wider than my pots, which, shape-wise, could be considered just mugs of varying capacity. The Fancy Feast stove covers only about 14% of the bottom surface of your pot. It covers 36% of the one I used the other night.

Below what temps do you prime your alcohol stove? Or do you always do it? A few weeks ago I bought a couple mini fruit pies at WM to harvest their aluminum pans for priming my alcohol stove. I didn't bring one this past weekend, thinking that I shouldn't need it for the ~ 40 degrees expected. Maybe I do?

[Cheyou]

http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/modified-starlyte-burner.php

i like this stove with narrow pot . I use the other side for Esbit.

thom

[4eyedbuzzard]

You are not alone in your frustration. After many attempts with several different alcohol stoves, pots (the wider, shallower "grease pot" was the best), windscreens, etc., I still had issues getting water to actual boil. Fish eyes was often the best I could get, and often not even that in cold and/or breezy conditions. Just couldn't rely on it. So, I did what most people do when they try and try again without success - I gave up. My final solution: isobutane. Light stove. Boil water. Every time.

[Puddlefish]

http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/modified-starlyte-burner.php

i like this stove with narrow pot . I use the other side for Esbit.



thom

After many attempts at making my own stove... which was admittedly was entertaining, I broke down and bought at Zelph stove as well. I have the Fancee Feast one. it puts the flame upward where it's not wasted.

My paper punch/cat food can models all spread the flames way too wide, and it seemed pointless to buy a larger/wider pot than I wanted, just to make my crappy stove work a bit more effeciently.

[Slo-go'en]

I found the best way to use an alky stove in cold weather is to make a pot stand out of a Dinty Moore beef stew can. Punch or drill a bunch of holes near the top and half way down the side of the can. The set the stove in the can, surrounded by fiberglass insulation. You can prime the stove by pouring a little fuel into the fiberglass. I've tested this setup to sub zero temps.

I use the classic two wall soda pop can type stove, which I feel works better then the simple fancy feast type.

[Time Zone]

I'm guessing you can't really efficiently use a cat food can stove with a separate pot stand since the alcohol won't pressurize?

Just came across this video which covered a couple things I experienced - cold pot kill syndrome and condensation. Plus it emphasizes priming. Again, I didn't know 40F was low enough to require that. But maybe it is!


https://youtu.be/kSDel9d0zP0

But a few more failures and I may follow 4eyedbuzzard and just stick with canisters that have a good mixture. The larger 220g Coleman canister they sell at Walmart also performed poorly as it chilled during use. I'm guessing too much butane in the mix there. It may start vaporizing around 31F but I suspect it can start performing poorly before that - like upper 30s. At home I have a 110g Snow Peak and that seems like a better mix. I'll save the Coleman for summertime.

[Five Tango]

You can get a lot of good information from You Tube.Check out Hiram Cook and Sean Emery.Also many other good alcohol stoves vids out there.You might be better served by a Caldera Cone from Trail Designs.The cone holds onto the pot,no gaps,and it does have greater efficiency.You can make your own,which I did,but in my case it would be cheaper to buy one due to the cost of tools and materials required and the learning curve involved etc.It always helps if you start with warm fuel.I sleep with mine in a ziplock bag in my jacket pocket with a bit of paper in it just in case there's any leaks.

[Five Tango]

FWIW,I bot some 36 guage aluminum crafting foil from Amazon-10 foot 12 inch roll for $11 bucks.It was easy to cut with scissors and work with the hands and makes a substantial enough wind screen.You can fold the ends of your screen back to interlock on each other or just use a heavy duty paper clip.Make the screen as high as your pot's top and cut a slot out for your handles.That protects from wind and makes the heat go up the sides more rather than get blown away in the wind.Note:it won't carry in your pot that way so you might want to wrap it on something like a water bottle.The foil makes a great primer pan too.

I do like my BRS 3000 one ounce titanium burner matched with a 100 gram cannister because of its btu output and speed but I always get ribbing and veiled complaints from others about how LOUD it is.The downside to propane is that you never know exactly how much fuel is left until you weigh it.Then there is the issue of whether or not to refill the tank which I am really not keen on doing.So if you carry an additional tank when one has only a few boils left in it you are paying a 100 gram penalty for using gas.From my experience with a Snow Peak 600 titanium pot I estimate 10 grams of gas for a boil.

Having both systems available is a big plus because during drought conditions alcohol burners might be prohibited due to the risk of forest fire.

[Traveler]

You are not alone in your frustration. After many attempts with several different alcohol stoves, pots (the wider, shallower "grease pot" was the best), windscreens, etc., I still had issues getting water to actual boil. Fish eyes was often the best I could get, and often not even that in cold and/or breezy conditions. Just couldn't rely on it. So, I did what most people do when they try and try again without success - I gave up. My final solution: isobutane. Light stove. Boil water. Every time.

Perfectly stated, to which I can only add there are few things more frustrating dealing with a cranky stove system on a dark, cold, rainy evening that won't light or cannot get a meal prepared. My experience with the frustration of this is akin to being a lawyer with no one to blame. It was interesting for a while, fun and adventurous for a shorter time. Many meals died trying to bring the dream to fruition likely due to my own ineptitude (removing cap, placing over heart), before I came to the conclusion cat food cans were not for me, even if I removed the ingredients first.

[TexasBob]

Make your yourself this type of fancy feast stove. The inner part is a Budweiser aluminum bottle and the outer part is a fancy feast can. The wicking is fiberglass cloth. Easy to make (or buy one from Zelph) and arguably the best and simplest alcohol stove to use. Make a windscreen out of an aluminum stove liner. It will work with your IMUSA 0.7L cup just fine.

46142

[FromNH]

I use a Firebox Nano as backup. If it’s warm enough I can set the alcohol stove inside the nano or I can used some twigs if it’s too cold or I run out of fuel to cook over a fire. I got the metal case too, it’s a bit heavy but let’s me make a leave no trace fire.

[Deadeye]

I've found there's a huge difference in boiling times by simply raising or lowering the pot, i.e. adjusting the distance from burner to pot bottom by using different pot stands. That might not work with your particular stove, which looks like the pot is just set on the stove.

I did have lots of fun experimenting with alcohol stoves (who doesn't like playing with fire?), but like others, I've also found I prefer the simplicity, reliability, and heat output of a good canister stove.

[Time Zone]

Dead on, Deadeye. Who doesn't like playing with fire? ha ha. And yes, I noticed that too about raising or lowering the pot. In fact, with a handled Al pot, the handle sort of acts like a temperature gauge for the contents inside - I could feel it warm up as I raised it off the cat stove. The reason of course was that the stove warmed up and put out more heat, and wasn't being cooled by the heat-sink effect of the Al pot with 2 cups of cold water. That in turn let it warm up the water, and I could feel it warm through the handle. But ... I don't have a pot stand and I liked the cat stove because it didn't require one. So now I know that priming may help that.

Boy did I go down the rabbit hole watching videos of water boiling! Esp. Hiram's. I enjoy making stoves and plan to make a couple more variants. My first will probably be something like the double-walled Fancee Feest, which has the tomato paste can inside and some wicking material. I suspect that the steel inner can will help mitigate the heat sink effect of a cold pot of water that otherwise sat directly atop my hole-punched cat food can. I also like how the double-walled cat stove addresses the issue of side jets with the "ring of fire" coming straight up from the wick.

I'll probably also make something like the x-lite, just because it looks so tiny and cool, though clearly a side-burner I've also given some though to the traditional soda can stove or penny stove. But that would need a stand.

[4eyedbuzzard]

... I did what most people do when they try and try again without success - I gave up. My final solution: isobutane. Light stove. Boil water. Every time.


Perfectly stated,... It was interesting for a while, fun and adventurous for a shorter time. Many meals died trying to bring the dream to fruition likely due to my own ineptitude (removing cap, placing over heart), before I came to the conclusion cat food cans were not for me, even if I removed the ingredients first.


Dead on, Deadeye. Who doesn't like playing with fire?... Boy did I go down the rabbit hole watching videos of water boiling! Esp. Hiram's. I enjoy making stoves and plan to make a couple more variants.

Just a side note. Even though I gave up trying to get one to work reliably enough, I'm not completely done playing with them from time to time. There is a certain allure about them. Maybe someday I'll get one to work well enough FOR ME. Like Time Zone said, "Who doesn't like playing with fire?" Make a stove, add a pot, measuring cup and tablespoon, thermometer, stopwatch, a quart of denatured and you've got entertainment covered on a rainy weekend.

[Deadeye]

I do have a couple of alcohol stove set-ups that work great, both homemade and store-bought, and I switch around some. I'd likely stick with alcohol more if the denatured stuff didn't smell so bad!

[JNI64]

Dead on, Deadeye. Who doesn't like playing with fire? ha ha. And yes, I noticed that too about raising or lowering the pot. In fact, with a handled Al pot, the handle sort of acts like a temperature gauge for the contents inside - I could feel it warm up as I raised it off the cat stove. The reason of course was that the stove warmed up and put out more heat, and wasn't being cooled by the heat-sink effect of the Al pot with 2 cups of cold water. That in turn let it warm up the water, and I could feel it warm through the handle. But ... I don't have a pot stand and I liked the cat stove because it didn't require one. So now I know that priming may help that.

Boy did I go down the rabbit hole watching videos of water boiling! Esp. Hiram's. I enjoy making stoves and plan to make a couple more variants. My first will probably be something like the double-walled Fancee Feest, which has the tomato paste can inside and some wicking material. I suspect that the steel inner can will help mitigate the heat sink effect of a cold pot of water that otherwise sat directly atop my hole-punched cat food can. I also like how the double-walled cat stove addresses the issue of side jets with the "ring of fire" coming straight up from the wick.

I'll probably also make something like the x-lite, just because it looks so tiny and cool, though clearly a side-burner I've also given some though to the traditional soda can stove or penny stove. But that would need a stand.

If you make a stove using a 3.5 oz. Tomato paste can and a fancy feast can. Drill 2 small holes at the bottom of the tomato paste can and 1 small at the top. Use carbon felt between the 2 cans not fiberglass, fiberglass will melt. This stove is multi purpose 1-3+ ozs of heat allows for longer boiling up 45 minutes, simmering, melting snow etc. Has its own pot stand just need wind screen.

[Starchild]

Part of the problem is the fuel is cold, and holds the cold through thermal mass and evaporative cooling. The fuel is 'protecting itself' from the heat much like a ablative heat shield on a spacecraft reentering the atmosphere as fuel evaporates and that forms a protective and insulated layer limiting runaway evaporation. This is good when you use the stove in the conditions that it was designed around, however outside those temperature ranges it works against you.

In that you are just getting less fuel to evaporate to burn till the fuel warms up, but with that stove the fire is outside the stove, so much of that heat (radiation and convection) doesn't heat the fuel, which is usually a feature, not a bug.

So the fuel must be warmed up, or the stove modified to work better in the cold. Suggestions: Perhaps priming it by letting it burn openly at first, or hovering the pot above the fire instead of placing the pot down on top, letting it center burn for a while before placing the pot down and then using the ports. Another suggestion would be placing it in a shallow dish and putting fuel in that dish to ignite first may help. Perhaps a copper strip could be used as some use with a canister stove where part of the strip would go under the can and then bend up through the flame at one port.

[Five Tango]

After all this stove gear discussion I have decided to go with a Caldera Cone for my perfect (for me) pot which is the Snow Peak 600.It comes with their 12-10 stove but I will likely use my Starlyte Stove which is number one on my favorites list followed closely by Zelph's FF stove.I won't know if the FF is compatible with the cone until it arrives of course.

I second Starchild's comments on fuel temps and primer pans.I like to prime an alkie stove a little for sure.
For me the big advantage to the Caldera Cone is not just the efficiency but the stability of the pot as you can rest assured it's not going to slide off the stove and dump your hot water or meal all over the place.Ditto the Starlyte or Trail Designs Kojin Stove,you can spill them even if they get knocked over and they can be snuffed out and capped off which saves a little fuel.

[V Eight]

Part of the problem is the fuel is cold, and holds the cold through thermal mass and evaporative cooling. The fuel is 'protecting itself' from the heat much like a ablative heat shield on a spacecraft reentering the atmosphere as fuel evaporates and that forms a protective and insulated layer limiting runaway evaporation. This is good when you use the stove in the conditions that it was designed around, however outside those temperature ranges it works against you.

In that you are just getting less fuel to evaporate to burn till the fuel warms up, but with that stove the fire is outside the stove, so much of that heat (radiation and convection) doesn't heat the fuel, which is usually a feature, not a bug.

So the fuel must be warmed up, or the stove modified to work better in the cold. Suggestions: Perhaps priming it by letting it burn openly at first, or hovering the pot above the fire instead of placing the pot down on top, letting it center burn for a while before placing the pot down and then using the ports. Another suggestion would be placing it in a shallow dish and putting fuel in that dish to ignite first may help. Perhaps a copper strip could be used as some use with a canister stove where part of the strip would go under the can and then bend up through the flame at one port.

When it's below 50ish I always use a primer disk. My disk is like super heavy weight aluminum foil. When I'm ready to boil, I will put as much fuel in the stove as I think all need to get a boil.Temp and how much water I'm using dictate the amount. Usually .75oz to 1 oz.. then I put around half a teaspoon fuel (maybe less) in the disk. One match lights them both. I then slowly (10-15 sec)lower the Kettle down to the stove. If it is cold like 30 down to around 20, I may have to hold the pot just over the stove for 30 - 40 seconds. I put the wind screen so it hugs the Kettle(1/4 inch all around). Some time I'll put a small twig or two under the screen, to add air flow upwards.

I had to figure how to make this stove work in the cold, because I had no plan "B" and really did not want a cold supper. I know there are faster, more efficient methods out there. This stove is one of my favorite pieces of gear. Weight of 1qt Kettle, under disk, stove, wind screen, matches (in an old school steel holder) Mini-bic, 12"x12" MSR towel and stuff sack = 10.8oz

[TexasBob]

Part of the problem is the fuel is cold, and holds the cold through thermal mass and evaporative cooling. The fuel is 'protecting itself' from the heat much like a ablative heat shield on a spacecraft reentering the atmosphere as fuel evaporates and that forms a protective and insulated layer limiting runaway evaporation. This is good when you use the stove in the conditions that it was designed around, however outside those temperature ranges it works against you.

In that you are just getting less fuel to evaporate to burn till the fuel warms up, but with that stove the fire is outside the stove, so much of that heat (radiation and convection) doesn't heat the fuel, which is usually a feature, not a bug.

So the fuel must be warmed up, or the stove modified to work better in the cold. Suggestions: Perhaps priming it by letting it burn openly at first, or hovering the pot above the fire instead of placing the pot down on top, letting it center burn for a while before placing the pot down and then using the ports. Another suggestion would be placing it in a shallow dish and putting fuel in that dish to ignite first may help. Perhaps a copper strip could be used as some use with a canister stove where part of the strip would go under the can and then bend up through the flame at one port.

Watch this guy light his fancy feast alcohol stove and alcohol at -3 degrees at 2:45 in the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XQVKLlLQjw

[TexasBob]

Here is my fancy feast stove cook kit (for some reason I can't get the one picture to be right side up when I upload it). Everything fits in the 0.7L IMUSA cup. I made a lid for the pot by sawing off the bottom of another 0.7L cup. The small ring next to cup is simmer ring cut from the top of a fancy feast can. I wrapped a silicon band around the handle of the cup to insulate it so I wouldn't burn my fingers on the hot handle but that doesn't work well so I use the carbon felt as a pot holder. The wind screen is made from an aluminum oven liner. The silver disc by the windscreen is a circle of corrugated plastic (like yard signs are made of) covered with metal HVAC tape that I use under the stove to protect picnic tables when I am using the stove. The plastic doesn't melt from the heat. I light the stove with the Light-My-Fire striker rather than a bic lighter. The whole kit weighs 6.3oz.
4615546157

[Time Zone]

Watch this guy light his fancy feast alcohol stove and alcohol at -3 degrees at 2:45 in the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XQVKLlLQjw
I've seen Shug get his alcohol stoves going in startlingly cold weather too. I suspect one thing that really helps is not having the cold pot of water right on the stove as with the Super Cat (if I have my terms right). The steel can in the middle of the traditional FF stove isn't as good at sucking away the heat from the stove as if you had the pot resting directly on it.

Here is my fancy feast stove cook kit (for some reason I can't get the one picture to be right side up when I upload it). Everything fits in the 0.7L IMUSA cup. I made a lid for the pot by sawing off the bottom of another 0.7L cup. The small ring next to cup is simmer ring cut from the top of a fancy feast can. I wrapped a silicon band around the handle of the cup to insulate it so I wouldn't burn my fingers on the hot handle but that doesn't work well so I use the carbon felt as a pot holder.


I had the same idea about the silicone band - but hadn't done it yet. Thanks for taking one of the team! :D

Very clever about the lid design. You got a good even cut on that - nice job.

[Odd Man Out]

If you want to build a great stove, try a eCHS stove. I use it with an olicamp xts pot. Boils 2 cups of water on just few minutes and less than 15 mL fuel. Wind screen doubles as a pot stand, not significantly affected by cold, primes in just a few seconds.

[JNI64]

Watch this guy light his fancy feast alcohol stove and alcohol at -3 degrees at 2:45 in the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XQVKLlLQjw

This is 1 of my home made faves. I also use mine in low temperatures to melt snow and cook. Nice having the optional longer burning times. I like taking my titanium 5 piece wood burning stove , super light and setting this alcohol stove in it ,super efficient. Then of course I have option of twig fire for boil.

[Five Tango]

Here's and informative video from Spiguyver. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyLF1DazGoE

I resisted the Caldera Cone for awhile because I considered the carrier to be dead weight.However,I am using the larger end of it for a pot cozy and the smaller section to measure water and make drinks in.Note,I only carry the Cone,spoon,fork,etc in the carrier.My Starlyte or the Kojin stove go in the pot lined with a drink can.

[TexasBob]

.......The steel can in the middle of the traditional FF stove isn't as good at sucking away the heat from the stove as if you had the pot resting directly on it. ........

I tried the FF stove with the steel can in the middle and carbon felt wicking but I did feel it worked as well as the ones in videos on Youtube. I don't know why it didn't. Then I tried the Bud aluminum bottle in the middle version with fiberglass wicking very similar to what Zelph sells and it worked much better. I have made at least 7 different types of DIY alcohol stoves over the years and for ease of use, simplicity and efficiency it is the winner. PM me and I will send you one to play with.

[zelph]

Try putting more holes in your stove according to Jim Woods design of the Supercat Stove.

http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/

His looks like this:
http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/supercat2/images/Super_Cat_2.jpg

Yours like this:

https://whiteblaze.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=46140&d=1581949216

[Time Zone]

Thanks for the thoughts, Zelph. You are definitely more expert than me on these things, but it seems to me that the pots in those two pictures above are so different in size that the the flame location (underneath vs. partially up the side) probably owes more to that than the number of holes. Wouldn't you think? Or are both an issue? I think I have 16 holes top row, 8 below. Looks like Jim Woods used 15 and 14? For one of his many variations.

TexasBob, thank you for the offer, but I think for a similar reason (my pots are narrow relative to the FF stove), the steel tomato paste can will probably expose more of the underside of my pot than the aluminum stadium bottle inner would. I have a spare bottle at the ready should I wish to try that out too. I appreciate the thought! Stoving is quite addictive.

[needlefish]

i've used my zelph style diy fancy feast stove in 18* weather. stove, pot, alcohol & water was out all night. had to break the ice in the nalgene to poor the water in the pot. the stove worked fine. no waiting for it to bloom, no cold pot snuff out like with some pot pressurized stoves. the stove works the same in 18* as it does in 50*

[Time Zone]

Just an update.

After getting the steel inner can cut, filed, and so forth, I tried it with paper towel as wick (as demonstrated by Hiram in a video) rather than tear into the carbon felt* right away. I thought hey, even if that worked out to be one paper towel per use, that's pretty frugal and convenient. And indeed, it wicked the alcohol very well and didn't consume itself ... until the alcohol ran out. Then it was time for typical yellow flame wood-product burning - and accompanying soot. Not good!

So I finally got into the Oatey fireproof stuff that was $15+tax at Home Depot. If zenstoves site is credible, it's not actually carbon felt, but PAN - Zoltek Pyron, which is an "oxidized/stabilized
polyacrylonitrile (PAN) fiber". Whatever the heck that is! It has similar, but not identical, temperature rating to carbon fiber.

I considered cutting the stuff a bit long and overlapping, in order to anticipate/combat shrinkage with use (as indicated by some users). However, I figured I could fill in gaps later, and if I cut things just right I could do a 7.5" strip across the bottom and leave 1.5" going the other way and thus use the 9"x12" more efficiently. This turned out to be smart, but not for the reason I planned. The stuff I ended up with was too thick to do ANY overlap between my 6 oz steel tomato paste can and the Fancy Feast can on the outside. In fact I had to trim about 1/4" or so from my 7.5" strip, and even then I had to use a blunt kitchen tool to stuff the material down the inside of the FF can. It was just so tight. So ... for what that's worth.

I don't have time to do extensive controlled testing, so I just did a quick and dirty simulation of intended field conditions and tried to reasonably infer from there. I started with 2 cups water that had been cooled to the mid to upper 30s with ice. I put 1 oz of HEET in the FF stove. Set the stove just inside my garage with door open and cold breeze coming in (mid to upper 30s, 10 mph wind). It didn't light very quickly, which I suspect had to do with the dense, thick wick. After it caught, I put the pot on and found that it wasn't real stable on the little piece of wood I had put under it to insulate it from the concrete floor (cutoff bit of paint stirrer). So I quickly swapped that out for a foil-covered disc of foam. Also within the first minute or so I remembered I need to add the windscreen. So that first minute wasn't probably the most efficient. By the end of the 1 oz the temp had been raised 100F to 136F. A rolling boil took second burn with 1 more ounce of HEET. It might have been able to be done with a half an ounce, but I could not light the stove with just a half ounce of HEET. I guess it wasn't enough to travel up the wick. [Oh, and naturally i forgot a pot lid with the first burn, but used it on the second. I told ya my controls weren't very good!]

w/r/t the first burn, there was a bit of fuel left in the center of the FF stove that had not wicked. Not much, but noticeably wet. Upon removing the pot when the wick went out, the center burned a bit longer.

Perhaps if I put in 1.5-1.75 oz of fuel at the start I would be able to go from ~ 36F to 212F in one straight boil - esp. if I did everything right from the start (insulated base, windscreen, lid). Does that sound about right, in terms of fuel use? It is kind of a bummer that the stove isn't so great with <1 oz, like if you don't quite hit a needed rolling boil, but get close. Maybe as the wick gets more use and flattens, it'll work with smaller amounts better, IDK.

[Time Zone]

Went near-backcountry over the past weekend and found that the the double-wall Fancy Feast stove sharply outperformed my "Super Cat" (which, IIRC, is the name for the side-burning, single-walled cat food can with holes around the upper half of the can). This was in approx 30-32F conditions. For one thing you don't have to wait for it to bloom. For another, the heat-sink effect of the cold water pot is muted by the steel inner can, which doesn't transmit heat to the stove as well as putting it directly on the cat food can.

I also used the X-lite stove to heat some water. No rolling boil - it can barely hold 15ml at a time. But this was tap water I carried in, so no need to purify it. It was plenty hot for hot chocolate or tea. That one, you do have to wait for it to bloom, but if you hold the pot over the stove while it does so, you can get started warming it a bit. Gradually letting the pot get closer, and finally on the stove, after it blooms, it does not snuff it out. This was just 8 oz of water, though.

BTW, neither the fuel nor the water was kept warm at all. They were left out all night (the larger 1L water bottles didn't freeze; the smaller skinny ones did), and things still performed really well. So, very happy with both stoves. Not sure I see myself going back to the Super Cat!

[zelph]

Oh the joys of DIY stoves. Keep up the good work :-)

[TexasBob]

Try putting more holes in your stove according to Jim Woods design of the Supercat Stove.

http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/

His looks like this:
http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/supercat2/images/Super_Cat_2.jpg

Yours like this:

https://whiteblaze.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=46140&d=1581949216

Here is a template I found for the number of holes and spacing. You print it out and tape it to the can.

http://zenstoves.net/Templates/TemplateSuperCat.pdf

[Time Zone]

Do any of you good folks have a sense for what is the (typical) minimum amount of fuel that will work with a fancy feast stove that is of the "double-walled plus [carbon felt] wick" variety?

I was out this weekend and (at one point) only needed to boil about 10 oz of water. I felt I had put in plenty for the task, and it did soak into the wick from the bottom (i.e., the center of the stove was almost dry). But I couldn't light the top of the wick even after a few minutes. I added more fuel and eventually got it going, but it ended up burning well after the water boiled. As a result, it felt like a waste. But that's how much was needed to get it to wick up to the top edge.

The x-lite seems to hold about 15ml and can boil about 8 oz. But it's tiny and unstable in typical usage. Still, maybe I should use that when I need to scale down.

Should I have poured the fuel in on the top of the wick instead? Or reserve some of it for that purpose?

Or does that wicking version not scale down well to the 8-12 oz of boil range?

Thanks -

[nsherry61]

I've never tried to figure out if I can boil less than a cup and an half without wasting fuel. But, something that might make a significant difference in this case is the amount of wick material as well as the actual wick material itself. I noticed, some time ago, that the FancyFeast stoves I was building had a much thinner layer of wick material (my inner "can" was larger diameter relative to the outer can), than what many other people, including zelph, were using. My stoves have always performed well and about the same as everyone's posted speeds and efficiency. But, it would make sense that less wick might require less fuel to saturate and burn.

You could also build a stove with a shorter outer can that would thus have a shorter distance and thus volume of wick while maintaining the stability of the larger can.

Also, I suspect the actual wick material, fiber glass vs. carbon felt vs. paper vs. cotton vs. any other functional wick material might make a pretty noticeable difference. I would think fiberglass might absorb the least, but then it may need more fluid to wick well. Cotton was certainly used extensively for wicks historically. I like using paper in my FancyFeast stoves just because it seems it shouldn't work. But it's readily available everywhere, essentially free, and it works just fine, although, I doubt it is the essence of the "best" performing wick material. I've never compared different wick materials relative to performance in these stoves. Maybe someone else has and someone on here can speak to that?

Good luck. Let us know if you experiment with it and figure out anything interesting.

[zelph]

Here is a template I found for the number of holes and spacing. You print it out and tape it to the can.

http://zenstoves.net/Templates/TemplateSuperCat.pdf

this photo is from jim woods site

47875

[Odd Man Out]

You are going through much of the same thought process I went through. I too started with a Super Cat stove and found the same problems. I improved that design by looping a few pieces of thick wire through the holes over the top. The pot sets on the wire leaving a small gap between the stove and pot. This allows you to put the pot on the stove before it is primed. It won't extinguish and there is less fuel wasted while priming and it's simpler to use. However this increases the power of a stove that was already over powered (losing too much heat up the sides), so I did this to a Simmer Cat (same stove, but with one row of holes). How're there was still the problem of guessing how much fuel you need (variable in field condition). So the solution was to always use a little more than necessary. But this was a waste of fuel. The solution was to come up with a snuffer and excess fuel recovery system. This worked but increased the fiddle factor (more moving parts, etc...). So the next step was to switch to a Starlyte stove. Here there is no need to guess you fuel load. Fill it up and blow it out like a candle when done. Cap it to store excess fuel in stove. This with no priming time maximized fuel efficiency and ease of use. The only real down sides I had with this system was I needed an extra piece (pot stand and wind screen) and it's a rather low power system. I then progressed to an eCHS stove with an Olicamp XTS pot and integrated pot stand/wind screen. This gave me power AND efficiency, super easy to use, and easy excess fuel recovery for high field efficiency. These were the design parameters I was chasing.