Missing Thru-Hiker

[DownYonder]

This man is missing. Began thru-hike on Friday.

https://www.facebook.com/dawsoncountyes/photos/a.641360705922944/2885736818151977/?type=3&theater

[gpburdelljr]

https://www.dawsonnews.com/local/dawson-county-authorities-searching-missing-hiker/

[Slo-go'en]

Not a good way to start a through hike. They found his gear but not him? Didn't even make it to the top of Springer. Yikes.

[blue indian]

Not a good way to start a through hike. They found his gear but not him? Didn't even make it to the top of Springer. Yikes.


Common man.....they think he had a medical emergency. Someone is missing and bad weather is rolling thru. Their family is clearly concerned. Poor choice of words on your end.

[Slo-go'en]

I sincerely hope they find him before it's too late.

Can't help but wonder what kind of medical emergency results in abandoning ones gear and wandering off into the woods?

[Tipi Walter]

I sincerely hope they find him before it's too late.

Can't help but wonder what kind of medical emergency results in abandoning ones gear and wandering off into the woods?

A couple possible scenarios---
** Went off the trail to expel waste, similar to G. Largay except she took her pack.
** Dumped his pack to pull a water run down to a spring.

Both might explain leaving the pack. Afterwhich he could've suffered a cardiovascular event.

BUT with dogs used I can't figure out how the animals didn't locate him in a ever-widening circle around his pack.

[gpburdelljr]

I sincerely hope they find him before it's too late.

Can't help but wonder what kind of medical emergency results in abandoning ones gear and wandering off into the woods?
A stroke could cause confusion.

[gpburdelljr]

Latest info:

https://www.dawsonnews.com/local/search-continues-missing-appalachian-trail-hiker/

[Slo-go'en]

Very bizzar. Sudden onset of Dementia could explain it.

Apparently they found some of his personal stuff near the hike inn. The first artical sounded like he had left all of it. I'd guess they found the daypack shown in the picture.

Hope they find him soon and he has enough wits to use the gear he has with him.

[Tipi Walter]

Very bizzar. Sudden onset of Dementia could explain it.

Apparently they found some of his personal stuff near the hike inn. The first artical sounded like he had left all of it. I'd guess they found the daypack shown in the picture.

Hope they find him soon and he has enough wits to use the gear he has with him.

Facts are all over the map but if they found his stuff by Hike Inn couldn't he have gotten into a vehicle and is long gone?? As I assume the Inn is on a road.

[TNhiker]

Facts are all over the map but if they found his stuff by Hike Inn couldn't he have gotten into a vehicle and is long gone?? As I assume the Inn is on a road.



the way i understand it, and the way their webpage says-----the only way to get there is to hike in...

hence, the play of words for the name of the place.....

[John B]

If my memory is correct, I had to hike 3-4 miles to get there. Perhaps there is something like a forest service-type road that they use for resupply, but if so, I didn't see one.

[TNhiker]

BUT with dogs used I can't figure out how the animals didn't locate him in a ever-widening circle around his pack.



dogs are not always accurate though....

i've covered a handful or two of missing persons, where the dogs walked within a few yards or so, of where the person was at.....

and with the weather changing this week, that would also add to difficulty of the search....

[TNhiker]

Perhaps there is something like a forest service-type road that they use for resupply, but if so, I didn't see one.



looking at the map, i'm not seeing a road........my eyes could be off though...


https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5804e893d2b85773b25e3aa1/t/59de81a58419c2d2894fb2aa/1507754427674/hi_map_08-17-18.pdf

[rmitchell]

There is a service road for the Hike Inn.

[Tipi Walter]

Obviously there's a drivable road to Hike Inn as shown on this map---although it must be closed except for construction and crew and resupplies etc.

46143

The entire area looks like a big place to get lost, roads or no roads.

[gpburdelljr]

the way i understand it, and the way their webpage says-----the only way to get there is to hike in...

hence, the play of words for the name of the place.....
It’s a 5 mile hike from the parking area to the Len Foote Hike Inn. The Inn trail diverges from the AT approach trail at 0.3 miles.

Link to map:
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5804e893d2b85773b25e3aa1/t/59de81a58419c2d2894fb2aa/1507754427674/hi_map_08-17-18.pdf

[gpburdelljr]

4:00 PM EST update on search:

https://www.11alive.com/video/news/local/authorities-give-update-in-case-of-missing-hiker-in-dawson-county/85-6bcca7ba-b1f6-4311-af2c-3564b6c8fea8

[tiptoe]

Hypothermia can disorient and can lead to poor choices.

[John B]

If I heard correctly, the sheriff said that found "some" of his gear but did not release the specifics. I wonder if he still has a tent, stove, etc?

According to the sheriff, the weather is perfectly awful with no sign of improvement.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Hypothermia can disorient and can lead to poor choices.Yeah, he called his sister at 11 am on Sunday and told her he was experiencing cramping, which is often a warning sign of hypothermia and/or dehydration which worsens the body's ability to keep warm. After that he called 911 but seemed confused and didn't know where he was. Then there's the discarded gear. Lots of classic hypothermia symptoms. Add in the weather staying wet and cold and getting colder (40's and into the 20's by Thurs night). Sadly, this doesn't sound promising. The best thing to hear short of them finding him quickly would be that he bailed but didn't notify anybody. The 911 call doesn't really fit that scenario though. :(

[Slo-go'en]

Hypothermia does sound like the most likely medical emergency. That would explain a lot of things. The dementia theory is a long shot. Anyone know what the weather was like down there on Sunday? I know it's been rotten since.

The authorities don't know his level of experience and can't say if the gear he might still have with him is enough to keep him alive. I was wondering about that. Cell phone went dead after a few pings, which must have been inconclusive. They would need at least three towers to get a decent fix.

He's been missing over 48 hours now and with bad weather. Sadly, not good odds. This will likely be another "what went wrong" story.

[Nolan "Guido" Jordan]

looking at the map, i'm not seeing a road........my eyes could be off though...


https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5804e893d2b85773b25e3aa1/t/59de81a58419c2d2894fb2aa/1507754427674/hi_map_08-17-18.pdf

I've been there twice. Both last year. I promise there is a gravel road there that stretches there from the Hike Inn to who knows where exactly. Also, there is a forest road at Nimblewill Gap. Approximately about 1.5 miles north from the Hike Inn on the Approach Trail.

[Nolan "Guido" Jordan]

If hypothermia is the issue, then did they find any water in his gear? The answer to that could help.

[JNI64]

This sucks, this really really sucks!! What a sucky way to start the season!

[rmitchell]

dogs are not always accurate though....

i've covered a handful or two of missing persons, where the dogs walked within a few yards or so, of where the person was at.....

and with the weather changing this week, that would also add to difficulty of the search....

Yes. Heavy rains can dilute the scent trail. Susan Clemons comes to mind. She went missing at Clingman's Dome in rain and fog.

TN Hiker you are probably familiar with a recent incident in Knoxville where a person with dementia was seen on camera walking away from a Walmart. Extensive search including dogs couldn't find him. Tragically his body was found in a creek not far from the store. We had a lot of rain.

Hopefully this case will have a better outcome. At least this person had gear with him.

[Five Tango]

FWIW,I was camped out near the Ocmulgee River about 100 miles south of Springer on Saturday night.Saturday was a beautiful day.The temp went down to about 39 degrees after midnight and by 4 am intermittent rain was falling with temps in the 40's.It has not stopped raining since,including some very hard rains here and a county further south of my home canceled school yesterday because of poor road conditions for the school buses.So weather is definitely a factor in this case as the weather system we are under now is widespread.Weather Channel is making references right now to"the water logged South".

[Nolan "Guido" Jordan]

Yes. Heavy rains can dilute the scent trail. Susan Clemons comes to mind. She went missing at Clingman's Dome in rain and fog.

TN Hiker you are probably familiar with a recent incident in Knoxville where a person with dementia was seen on camera walking away from a Walmart. Extensive search including dogs couldn't find him. Tragically his body was found in a creek not far from the store. We had a lot of rain.

Hopefully this case will have a better outcome. At least this person had gear with him.

I saw that story on the news but never knew if they found him or not.

[rmitchell]

This makes me think more about carrying a personal locator beacon.

[TNhiker]

TN Hiker you are probably familiar with a recent incident in Knoxville where a person with dementia was seen on camera walking away from a Walmart. Extensive search including dogs couldn't find him. Tragically his body was found in a creek not far from the store. We had a lot of rain.




yeah.......we did a few stories on this incident.....

and that walmart is only about 2-3 miles from my house.....

[peakbagger]

PLBs only work if the person has the presence of mind to activate it. The first thing that goes with hypothermia is the higher mental functions. A Spot type device keeps a track and reports it to the internet via a satellite network, in theory if someone is watching they would notice the track stopped. The down side it that Spots on occasion just stop reporting a location due to terrain, tree cover and or atmospheric conditions.

I do carry a PLB for my AT corridor boundary work as I am working solo out in the woods on very rough terrain that is rarely if ever visited. There is far better chance of being injured and unable to self rescue in situation like that then a hiker with medical issues.

[gpburdelljr]

Still searching on day 4.

https://www.dawsonnews.com/local/search-missing-hiker-resumes/

[John B]

The picture of him under the gate -- is he carrying both a regular pack and a daypack on his chest? I can't say that I've ever seen someone do that.

[glenlawson]

a lot of the news is similar, but here is another current article:
https://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/badge-bar/dawson-county-authorities-searching-hiker-missing-near-appalachian-trail/

there are a lot of trails and forest service roads in the area. it has been rainy and foggy for the last week and this area can get locked in with fog which makes navigation tricky. also, there is a ridge that continues near Amicalola and Hike Inn which is why Dawson County has a pretty good high angle rescue team.

Dawson County Search and Rescue are also taking volunteers. They want you to email them with qualifications and wait to be contacted.
[email protected]

[TNhiker]

The picture of him under the gate -- is he carrying both a regular pack and a daypack on his chest? I can't say that I've ever seen someone do that



looks like it.....

although, from picture, not sure how big the one on his back is.......

[rmitchell]

PLBs only work if the person has the presence of mind to activate it. The first thing that goes with hypothermia is the higher mental functions. A Spot type device keeps a track and reports it to the internet via a satellite network, in theory if someone is watching they would notice the track stopped. The down side it that Spots on occasion just stop reporting a location due to terrain, tree cover and or atmospheric conditions.

I do carry a PLB for my AT corridor boundary work as I am working solo out in the woods on very rough terrain that is rarely if ever visited. There is far better chance of being injured and unable to self rescue in situation like that then a hiker with medical issues.

I thought about that.

But he did have presence of mind to make a couple of cell phone calls before his battery died.

[Alligator]

The picture of him under the gate -- is he carrying both a regular pack and a daypack on his chest? I can't say that I've ever seen someone do that.Might be an AARN? I didn't look at it too closely.

[Tipi Walter]

The picture of him under the gate -- is he carrying both a regular pack and a daypack on his chest? I can't say that I've ever seen someone do that.


Might be an AARN? I didn't look at it too closely.

On casual glance it looks like a regular old daypack for extra gear. The Aarn system is very different---here's Medicine Man with the pack---see pic---the front aarn packs attach to the back pack's shoulder straps etc.

46147

[Slo-go'en]

The picture of him under the gate -- is he carrying both a regular pack and a daypack on his chest? I can't say that I've ever seen someone do that.

Yes, that is what it looks like. Which leads me to think he's an inexperienced hiker. I suspect it's the personal belonging they found near the hike inn. It would be the first thing I'd ditch. We've all heard the stories of the approach trail littered with gear as the newbies try to lighten the pack.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Might be an AARN? I didn't look at it too closely.Nope. Not an Aarn - I own one. Looks like a daypack or large hydration pack worn on front. Might be a modified one, but definitely not an Aarn.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Tipi Walter]

Yes, that is what it looks like. Which leads me to think he's an inexperienced hiker. I suspect it's the personal belonging they found near the hike inn. It would be the first thing I'd ditch. We've all heard the stories of the approach trail littered with gear as the newbies try to lighten the pack.

If your main pack is woefully too small you can carry an extra pack and/or daypack---and I've done it several times in the old days. But I never strapped the extra on my chest and instead strapped it on the back or at the top of my regular pack.

The worst was in '87 during a national rainbow gathering when I had to hump out 3 packs at one time---my own big North Face external and two packs for friends who were coming in later---one with an army ALICE pack and the other a Sundog pack---all crammed atop my external. Looked like 3 bugs having sex.

[illabelle]

I read that he was found dead at the bottom of Cochran Falls (https://www.facebook.com/fetch.yournews/photos/a.437875206343671/1894054187392425/?type=3&eid=ARAGbGI0iL3OhEm67NOxBquYJfW0oiI8Fgk8cZxn_zkwys lDDUFofgaplg76PGKhu1C3kkh-UnKqwruJ&ifg=1).

So sad.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Found dead earlier this afternoon at Cochran Falls. Sheriff's office press conference live at 9:30pm EST (EDIT: live feed now over) at https://www.11alive.com/article/news/local/missing-in-georgia/eddie-noonkester-missing-hiker-update/85-6b70f94d-7193-4dba-ad6e-89f4959b8443

RIP

[rmitchell]

Deepest condolences for his family and friends.

[Slo-go'en]

Sad news indeed.

They say he was found 1.3 miles SW off the Le Foot trail. Which would put him at the bottom of a hollow which is difficult terrain according to the fire chief.

The Le Foot trail heads down hill from the AT junction. I bet he somehow lost the trail in the rain and continued down hill, but steeply down the side rather then along the ridge. Then even as the going became difficult, it seems easier to keep going down then to try and climb back up. Or it just might not be possible to go back up. Cold, wet, tired and totally lost. A perfect storm. Similar situation to that lady who got lost in the GSMNP last fall.

[FromNH]

May he Rest In Peace.

[Nimblewill]

Another tragic incident in this area. At risk of attacks for my sharing some history about 911 call response in this area, let me review some history. And yes, I'm local. Bottom line--review your emergency plan, know where you are--and how to describe your location to others--even 911 may have no idea where you are.

Dawson County is one of the five counties that touch on Springer Mountain and it's approaches. Some of these counties, like Lumpkin (Dahlonega) and Gilmer (Ellijay) and others are 45% national forest land. Contrary to what you may think, most law officers and responders will likely have never been to these areas.

While we can specualte that this person had a medical crisis, or possibly cognitive issues--referenced in a Dawson press conference--or dehydration overheating, etc. most lost persons downhill, and when they reach a stream or river, go along it. That's the first direction to go, if search resources and time are limited. (Found along Cochran Creek, just a mile from the Len Foote hike-in lodge...)

When a cell call comes in from this area--potentially in one of five counties that have jurisdiction--the hope is that the call can be determined to be in another county, and not requiring a response. If not an emergency, the hope is that it is a USFS (federal) or DNR Wildlife Resources Division (DNR-WRD, game wardens) call. Both of these agencies are at half the staff of only a decade ago. If a law enforcement response is required, the local counties will not have many vehicles that are capable of reaching areas in the forest, with the continued neglect of these roads. As a child--decades ago, we would take the family car over Nimblewill Gap, from the falls, or from either side of the gap. The roads were passable, of course. Little chance the Dodge Chargers the sheriff's offices use can do that today. There likely won't be any quick response, regardless.

Last year, Dawson 911 got a call from the driver of a wrecked car off the mountain on the approach to Nimblewill Gap. The deputy argued with dispatch (recorded) going so far as to say he though the call was a set-up or something...the response time was six hours! read about it or hear the tape at: https://dawson.fetchyournews.com/2019/06/10/accident-victim-waits-six-hours-for-help-to-arrive-from-dawson-county-sheriffs-office/

The approach to Nimblewill Gap from the south, FS 28-2, straddles Lumpkin and Dawson County. A popular road for illegal 4WD off-roading, with trashed campsites and squatters. Meth camps are not uncommon. Recently, a Lumpkin resident was murdered there--investigated by Lumpkin (LCSO), and determined to have been murdered in Dawson, with the body found days later in Forsyth. Drugs were part of the party, as the loclas know there won't be a law enforcement ride-through, or any game wardens if it's not perhaps opening day of trout season. Two of the four indicted were teenagers, more at: https://www.forsythnews.com/local/crime-courts/four-arrests-so-far-murder-investigation-lumpkin-county-woman/

(Dawson also mishandled the Gary Michael Hilton case, and when 911 dispatched DNR to Dawson Forest's AMicalola River boat launch to a clal about a potential murder in progress (from one of the victims) DNR fficers weren't told the killer was shooting at the victi--later found deceased in the river...)

With Georgia's legislature planning another round of budget cuts, the DNR won't see more officers. (Amicalola SP always had a Park Superintendent who was also a sworn law officer--but no more. No Georgia Parks have sworn DNR officers any more. The park operators are to call 911 for violent crimes in progress or whatever. That's a long response time, and don't assume any responder knows where anything is off the paved roads. Under Trump and USDA Secretary Perdue, Georgia's former Governor who cut DNR's budget, don't expect the USFS to have any new resources for their strapped and minimal law enforcement--Georgia has five officers for about a million acres of the CONF.

And the five counties--their budgets are no better. Dawson has the outlet mall and the four-lane developed area to deal with; Lumpkin has the weekend surge of tourism--and sport bikes and bicycles on the scenic mountain roads--they've had to delay call responses due to staff limits.

Bottom line--calling 911 may not bring help in a timely manner. The illegal off-roading destroying the forest (videos abound online), the reckless 'target' shooting by visitors, the trashed campsites and resource damage, and the car break-ins at trail heads all point to a need for more law enforcement presence. It isn't coming. And if you need an officer NOW it will be a while, and if you need an EMT, forget the "golden hour" (which is a half-hour, for age 15 and under, as medical professionals know.)

And don't count on anything but paper maps in this area--cell coverage is spotty. Most digital maps are dubious, and the local counties are using tax maps and other sources for digitizing maps, so the legacy names on topos are often changed, giving different versions of names for the same place, and SAR teams will have different maps depending on their agency and source.

And let's not even talk about nuisance 911 calls from ill-prepared and "lost" hikers who just want "rescue" from their situation, while not needing to tie up limited response resources. That's a whole other drain on the region's ability to deal with emergencies. Their should be fines and cost recovery for such calls.


Thank you to the earnest responders for their efforts. I don't know if a different handling of this matter could have changed this outcome, but the overall situation-- with fewer resources, and more people in the woods, most without maps and compass, is not good. The politics of increasing public resources for outdoor recreation or even first responders such as police and fire, don't look good either.

My condolences to friends and family.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

Giving the guy the benefit of doubt, starting a thru hike, he'd have the gear, the food etc. He was only missing 1 day, so I'd bet he had a medical issue, which can happen to anyone.

[Tipi Walter]

I have a few questions---

** Is the trail from the AT to Hike Inn on a gated service road to the Inn or is it on an actual foot trail??

** The initial pack that was found on Sunday---was it his front daypack or his backpack??

** Did he get lost on his approach to Hike Inn or was it when leaving the Inn? Did he spend the night at the Inn??

[C4web88]

Found dead earlier this afternoon at Cochran Falls. Sheriff's office press conference live at 9:30pm EST (EDIT: live feed now over) at https://www.11alive.com/article/news/local/missing-in-georgia/eddie-noonkester-missing-hiker-update/85-6b70f94d-7193-4dba-ad6e-89f4959b8443

RIP

Man, that's really sad. I'm glad they were able to recover him though, puts the family at peace.

[Slo-go'en]

I have a few questions---

** Is the trail from the AT to Hike Inn on a gated service road to the Inn or is it on an actual foot trail??

** The initial pack that was found on Sunday---was it his front daypack or his backpack??

** Did he get lost on his approach to Hike Inn or was it when leaving the Inn? Did he spend the night at the Inn??
It's an actual trail.
They never said what gear they found, I suspect it was the day pack. Edit: now that I think about it, he might have shed his main pack, thinking the inn couldn't be much farther - which it probably wasn't.
I believe he was headed for the hike inn, which would have been the logical thing to do given the weather.

The topo map I downloaded for the area shows a woods road of some kind which parallels just south of the hike inn approach trail, but it dead ends before it gets near the inn. Might be an old logging tote road which may or may not be serviceable. The map I downloaded doesn't give the name of streams, so can't tell exactly where he might of ended up or how he got there.

My guess is inexperience and hypothermia was the root cause of this unfortunate outcome.

Looks like the weather down there is still going to suck for a few more days. I hope all the early starters are waiting it out.

[treroach]

Sad but true, this is one for the ages, especially if COD is weather/trail-related more than medical. Has anyone ever heard of a case like this with a hiker dying on the Approach Trail, and AFTER successfully contacting family and 911? How was it not possible to get his GPS long/lat from the call and have him stay put? There are numerous unanswered questions of course. And thanks, Nimblewill, for the info

[saltysack]

My condolences to his family and friends....so sad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tipi Walter]

This reminds me of Mike Gourley who's an avid dayhiker in the Smokies and one time got terribly lost on a trail near Cades Cove and wrote up a blog entry of the experience---Bewildered and Misplaced---etc. Happened in February 2003.

He was disoriented and lost for 4 days and included a picture of his cell phone tracking marks for those 4 days---I wish I had the picture to share but it seems he has scrubbed the internet clean of this event---and the marks on the map look like someone spilled a bowl of spaghetti on the thing.

He was zigzagging everywhere.

[gpburdelljr]

Video of press conference after the hiker was found.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ot68TeCgeY

At present they are not releasing info on what gear was found a few days ago, or what gear he had with him when they found him.

[LittleRock]

I've been worried that these kinds of things would start happening given the larger number of aspiring thru-hikers starting earlier and earlier in the year.

If you're not well prepared, experienced, and physically fit, February really isn't a safe time to start a thru-hike.

[coach lou]

I've been worried that these kinds of things would start happening given the larger number of aspiring thru-hikers starting earlier and earlier in the year.

If you're not well prepared, experienced, and physically fit, February really isn't a safe time to start a thru-hike.

These are wise words Walter!

[Slo-go'en]

I've been worried that these kinds of things would start happening given the larger number of aspiring thru-hikers starting earlier and earlier in the year.

If you're not well prepared, experienced, and physically fit, February really isn't a safe time to start a thru-hike.
Especially for the older crowd.

[illabelle]

This reminds me of Mike Gourley who's an avid dayhiker in the Smokies and one time got terribly lost on a trail near Cades Cove and wrote up a blog entry of the experience---Bewildered and Misplaced---etc. Happened in February 2003.

He was disoriented and lost for 4 days and included a picture of his cell phone tracking marks for those 4 days---I wish I had the picture to share but it seems he has scrubbed the internet clean of this event---and the marks on the map look like someone spilled a bowl of spaghetti on the thing.

He was zigzagging everywhere.
I've read that story. Mike led us on an off-trail hike in the southwest corner of the Smokies to an old homesite once occupied by my son-in-law's g-g-g-grandfather. Mike's adventures go beyond ordinary dayhiking. He specializes in off-trail explorations, and has been to many/most of the known homesites and cemeteries. He's certainly no novice. For him to get lost like he did (relying on his Garmin) and for as long as he did - in February - was sobering. We feel safe when we can see the trail. When we lose sight of it, panic surges. Mike was able to manage his panic and self-rescue.
Lots of respect for him!

[treroach]

Perfect summation, worth repeating again y again: If you're not well prepared, experienced, and physically fit, February really isn't a safe time to start a thru-hike.

[One Half]

Giving the guy the benefit of doubt, starting a thru hike, he'd have the gear, the food etc. He was only missing 1 day, so I'd bet he had a medical issue, which can happen to anyone.
He placed a call stating he needed help on Friday I believe. This search has been going on for a number of days.

[Tipi Walter]

Perfect summation, worth repeating again y again: If you're not well prepared, experienced, and physically fit, February really isn't a safe time to start a thru-hike.

I would put March on that list too. Remember the Blizzard of '93? Happened on March 12-13. What's amazing is how cold the ambient temps can be and how rain continues to fall as rain and not snow.

Today February 20 IS NOT the time to be stumbling around in the Southeast mountains---Why? Days of cold rain.

[tiptoe]

So sorry to hear about the outcome, but sadly, not surprised. Condolences to his family.

[TNhiker]

For him to get lost like he did (relying on his Garmin) and for as long as he did - in February - was sobering. We feel safe when we can see the trail. When we lose sight of it, panic surges. Mike was able to manage his panic and self-rescu




i feel lucky to be lost for only one day.............in the snowbird wilderness area.....

but, i had my gear with me and i still had a steak with me.......

mike seemingly only does day hikes so he had minimal gear.....

[4eyedbuzzard]

Sad but true, this is one for the ages, especially if COD is weather/trail-related more than medical. Has anyone ever heard of a case like this with a hiker dying on the Approach Trail, and AFTER successfully contacting family and 911? How was it not possible to get his GPS long/lat from the call and have him stay put? There are numerous unanswered questions of course. And thanks, Nimblewill, for the infoWell, I'm betting somebody has had a heart attack and died on the Approach Trail at some point. Maybe not a thru-hiker, but that's a lot of elevation gain in a short distance, especially fresh off the couch so to speak. And there are plenty of aspiring thru-hikers who hit the trail with little to no conditioning.

As to GPS, if he was in terrain and/or weather where his phone couldn't "see" 3 (and preferably 4) GPS satellites, it wouldn't be able to resolve and transmit his location during the 911 call, only the location of the cell tower which could be miles away. And emergency services would have to get a hold of the wireless carrier to get that (tower) info - it isn't automatic as far as I know. 911 GPS locator service isn't universal either. Not every emergency services agency has the latest up to date 911 technology, especially small counties and such - it's expensive technology. Then add that the wireless carriers have to have the tech and service in place as well. FCC has told major wireless carriers that they have until 2021 to provide "dispatchable locations" for 80% of 911 calls. And they will obviously focus on populated areas, not the mountainous forests. If you think you might need high reliability in a rescue signalling device in a remote area, honestly, get a PLB - but keep in mind that even they aren't foolproof.

And just to add a bit more info, Dawson County budgeted money ($400K+) for a new 911 system. https://bigcanoenews.com/news/news-col1/dawson-county/8719-dawson-county-to-purchase-new-cad-system-for-e-911 But that was only last year. Whether or not it is up and running I don't know. But from what was reported by both news and the poor guy's brother, it sure seemed like they were doing everything they possibly could to find this guy. It was a pretty bad situation. Not all rescues are successful regardless of good intent or effort expended, and especially so in bad weather in difficult terrain.

[peakbagger]

There is also a national effort called First Net that is going to substantially improve emergency services cell service in rural areas. A side benefit will be improved regular cell service. They have a deep checkbook and can put towers in places that normally would not allow them.

[ATL Backpacker]

He placed a call stating he needed help on Friday I believe. This search has been going on for a number of days.
The 911 call he placed was on Sunday, speaking to one of the head cops. He could have been lost, separated from his gear, in bad shape, etc., for a day by that time though. I’d be curious to hear what the police told him during that call - stay put, climb in your tent and bag, etc. it’s been raining so much in Georgia the last several days I’d be shocked if he didn’t get wet rather quickly and succumb to hypothermia shortly thereafter.

[JC13]

Well, I'm betting somebody has had a heart attack and died on the Approach Trail at some point. Maybe not a thru-hiker, but that's a lot of elevation gain in a short distance, especially fresh off the couch so to speak. And there are plenty of aspiring thru-hikers who hit the trail with little to no conditioning.

As to GPS, if he was in terrain and/or weather where his phone couldn't "see" 3 (and preferably 4) GPS satellites, it wouldn't be able to resolve and transmit his location during the 911 call, only the location of the cell tower which could be miles away. And emergency services would have to get a hold of the wireless carrier to get that (tower) info - it isn't automatic as far as I know. 911 GPS locator service isn't universal either. Not every emergency services agency has the latest up to date 911 technology, especially small counties and such - it's expensive technology. Then add that the wireless carriers have to have the tech and service in place as well. FCC has told major wireless carriers that they have until 2021 to provide "dispatchable locations" for 80% of 911 calls. And they will obviously focus on populated areas, not the mountainous forests. If you think you might need high reliability in a rescue signalling device in a remote area, honestly, get a PLB - but keep in mind that even they aren't foolproof.

And just to add a bit more info, Dawson County budgeted money ($400K+) for a new 911 system. https://bigcanoenews.com/news/news-col1/dawson-county/8719-dawson-county-to-purchase-new-cad-system-for-e-911 But that was only last year. Whether or not it is up and running I don't know. But from what was reported by both news and the poor guy's brother, it sure seemed like they were doing everything they possibly could to find this guy. It was a pretty bad situation. Not all rescues are successful regardless of good intent or effort expended, and especially so in bad weather in difficult terrain.Someone died last year or the year before of a heart attack at the Springer summit or nearby. They were walking there or back with a loved one who was setting out on the AT from what I recall.

[Nimblewill]

The 911 call he placed was on Sunday, speaking to one of the head cops. He could have been lost, separated from his gear, in bad shape, etc., for a day by that time though. I’d be curious to hear what the police told him during that call - stay put, climb in your tent and bag, etc. it’s been raining so much in Georgia the last several days I’d be shocked if he didn’t get wet rather quickly and succumb to hypothermia shortly thereafter.

Not that anything will change or there will be any consequences for misleading the public, but the weather wasn't bad much of this time--Amicalola and Nimblewill both have online recorded weather data: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KGAAMICA2/graph/2020-02-21/2020-02-21/weekly Monday was good weather, when an "fire battalion" spoke with the lost hiker. Was that call recorded--what was he told? (Good weather, if dry...I get hypothermia effects.)

As noted in my earlier post, there are lots of deficiencies in how 911 calls are handled in rural N Ga, and this area and county have a history. That said, they have very limited rresources (Tax base and revenue, low population). That sate and federal resources weren't called in for quite a wqhile--assuming this was viewed as a serious situation-- is concerning. We neighbors want to believe someone "in government" from some agency knows how to respond appropriately, with dispatch.

Dawson Sheriff's office facebook page has comments about DCSO's new "$35,000 drone" that was deployed and useful, they claim...yet the fire chief would lead viewers to believe it rained all four days. A FOIA request for drone footage would tell a lot. Another post (news outlet) says the search was called off Tuesday afternoon "due to lightning", well ahead of the night's rains. Very concerning.

Remeber if you need to search--lost folks usually go downhill (path of least resistance) and along waterways. While the trips and falls risk that Dawson's fire chief references in his TV video can happen, hikers, and presumably SAR members are comfortable with that low risk. Did the "Searchers" have folks loop the AT approach and Len Foote trails as a first step, on Sunday--they day of the call?

Let's be clear--to a novice, this area is "difficult terrain" as is much of the AT in Georgia. Yet, the current record for traversing the almost 80 miles of AT in Georgia held by an ultra athlete covered the entire Georgia section overnight (Karl Meltzer, 49). Seems carrying radios and lights and water in an area bounded by two trails and a road through it right from the outset would have been prudent. Grids are thorough, but take a lot of time and people. Time may have been of the essence, and if that call said this person needed water, all the more reason to walk from the trail to Cochran Falls, the obvious natural boundary of the search area.

[blue indian]

Ive been wondering how he got so far away from the actual AT

I guess he took the trail to the Hike Inn, instead of approach trail, and then got disoriented and wondered off trail that way?

Ive literally sat at the very intersection (approach trail & Hike Inn trail) and could see how one might go in the wrong direction. But there are signs, very clear signs letting you know which way is which. I dont recall the blazing (if any) on either trail.


But then how did he get off trail? I guess in those situations where hypothermia is a serious concern, I will never understand unless I experience it myself.


Its very frustrating that he knew he was in trouble, called 911 but to no avail. :(

Ive never carried any kind of PLB but these reoccurring situations and listening to David Paulides makes me reconsider for sure.

RIP trail brother

[Christoph]

Sad news. I've been following this since the start. RIP fellow hiker.

[johnacraft]

My condolences to the family and friends of the deceased.

[RockDoc]

I would like to see a factual summary of events, without speculation, of what went wrong.
In studies of outdoor fatalities, it's never one thing, it's cascading errors, problems, and weather, many factors.
We need to learn something from this sad event... it can happen to anybody.

[George]

I would like to see a factual summary of events, without speculation, of what went wrong.
.

whiteblaze is not the place for that

[ATL Backpacker]

It was posted earlier in this thread that he was found at the bottom of Cochran Falls...although I can't find that reported in the media stories. Anyway, somewhere along the Hike Inn trail, there is a side trail that leads to the top of a (tall) waterfall. Maybe it's Cochran Falls or maybe it's another, it's been many years since I was there. I suppose he could have taken that side trail in error. Very dangerous spot, someone fell to their death at those falls many years ago...I think there is a marker.

[TNhiker]

I would like to see a factual summary of events, without speculation, of what went wrong.




this can never be done...

as the only person who truly knows what happened is Mr. Noonkester........

[John B]

this can never be done...

as the only person who truly knows what happened is Mr. Noonkester........

That's not correct. Accident reconstruction is done all the time and in a wide variety of circumstances. Cops do it all the time. Logicians, philosophers, attorneys, statisticians, scientists in all fields are more than able, to name but a few, are able to identify casual agents without being 'in the scene,' so to speak.

And I think that everyone who has followed this has a very, very good idea what the primary substantive factors are. I know what I would put near the top.

[Adriana]

Has anyone ever heard of a case like this with a hiker dying on the Approach Trail, and AFTER successfully contacting family and 911? cell signal is unreliable in this area due to very few towers. While they did ping his location, in these areas pings are not reliable.

[treroach]

Mr. Noonkester SPOKE with 911. Most every phone has longitude/latitude on it. We're not talking pings here, we're talking about a conversation in which dispatcher presumably should have been able to direct Mr. Noonkester to tell them his location. TNhiker is right - there is no possible 'factual summary of events, WITHOUT SPECULATION'. This is not an automobile accident, there are no witnesses, and while we may all have 'primary substantive factors' in mind, it seems that no one commenting here has any real idea of what truly transpired. Why be coy, John B, and not tell us what you would put at the top, because there are way more questions than answers here? Was this medical? Was this weather? Was this a fall? How much did inexperience or poor gear choice/lack of skills contribute to this tragedy? With all due respect to the deceased, this is precisely why WBlaze can be of value. There's much to be learned from any case like this one (even though I can't think of any case truly like this one!) If I were to perish in an accident/situation like this, I would hope lessons could be learned for others to avoid the same tragic fate.

[gpburdelljr]

When you call 911 your smartphone doesn’t transmit the GPS location, because of outdated technology. The 911 center has to work with the phone company to ping the phone, and get a location, which may not be accurate.

Here is an article about how it works.

https://www.wptv.com/news/local-news/investigations/why-911-cant-always-find-you-if-you-call-from-a-cell-phone

Apple, and others, is working to correct this problem.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/06/18/technology/apple-911-location/index.html

[treroach]

When you look at your phone, you can see your longitude and latitude. When you talk into your phone, you can tell the person on the other end of the line that information. How can I make my point any clearer? Where have I failed?

[4eyedbuzzard]

When you look at your phone, you can see your longitude and latitude. When you talk into your phone, you can tell the person on the other end of the line that information. How can I make my point any clearer? Where have I failed?ONLY IF you know how to access that info on your phone AND THEN ONLY IF you have location services enabled AND THEN ONLY IF your phone can see 3 or more GPS satellites. Northern GA isn't flat suburban Texas with multitudes of cell towers and unobstructed views of GPS satellites in the sky. Just because you can get a signal to a single cell tower doesn't mean you have the other functions available. Add that if you only have a weak signal, you won't have data, and unless you have downloaded offline maps prior to getting wherever it is you are, you won't have map access/navigation available on a phone even if you can get a GPS fix.

[RockDoc]

whiteblaze is not the place for that

Oh, so Whiteblaze is the place for speculation without facts. Thanks a lot.

[Vince G]

ONLY IF you know how to access that info on your phone AND THEN ONLY IF you have location services enabled AND THEN ONLY IF your phone can see 3 or more GPS satellites. Northern GA isn't flat suburban Texas with multitudes of cell towers and unobstructed views of GPS satellites in the sky. Just because you can get a signal to a single cell tower doesn't mean you have the other functions available.Kind of makes you wanna take a stand-alone gps unit like a Garmin Oregon.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[treroach]

Thanks for getting us back to the ballpark of a real, human conversation, 4eyedbuzzard, but I think you can safely presume that everyone reading this knows that northern GA isn't 'flat suburban Texas'. Most of us have probably been there/done that - I'll bet you have, and if you make the same wager about me, you'll be a correct as well. So... as far as your first two 'only if's...', that is precisely what I was referring to when I wrote that the 'dispatcher presumably should have been able to DIRECT Mr. Noonkester to tell them his location'. Among the numerous unanswered questions is whether the 911 operator knew how to access long/lat on the phone, and subsequently attempted to guide Mr. Noonkester to share this potentially life-saving info. As far as satellite connections go, I'm certainly no expert, but the claim that one can have a cell phone conversation yet not be able to see long/lat on phone seems dubious (again, not saying it's not possible). Guthook and GPS seems to have a MUCH greater range than cell phone calling, and guthook sure seems to work everywhere on the trail these days.

[4eyedbuzzard]

First, my sincere condolences to his family. And in discussing Eddie's tragic death, I in no way wish to diminish their loss. But as many of us here may quite literally follow in his footsteps, it's important for us to have an idea of what may have happened and what may have gone wrong leading to this tragedy. Unfortunately, when things go wrong, it's important to answer the "who, what, why, etc." to better learn how to prevent such events happening to others.

My initial thoughts were hypothermia, brought on by hiking into deteriorating weather conditions and failing to turn back and or hunker down before getting soaked. But the timeline doesn't really play into that as the proximate cause. He departed Amicalola Falls headed up the Approach Trail on Friday. Yet the calls to his sister and 911 don't occur until Sunday. So, it gives rise to the question of what happened on both Fri and Sat, and especially very early on, on Friday, during the hike. Now, even for an out of shape 60 year old (and I can personally attest to the effects of aging on physical ability/endurance) getting to Black Gap shelter is 7.3 miles or Springer Mtn Shelter at 9 miles or so. There's a lot of elevation gain in the beginning and lots more ups and downs follow. But, while it's a tough introduction in the sense of the work involved in moving one's weight uphill, it's an established footpath, well blazed/marked, etc. But even for an out of shape old guy, Friday should have put him at one of the two shelters mentioned, and Sat on to Hawk Mtn. How does he wind up at Cochran Falls? After reaching the top of the falls, did he decide to detour to the Hike Inn for medical or fatigue reasons and then get lost on the HI trail? Or perhaps on High Shoals or Nimblewell Gap Rd and then on the Hike Inn Rd further up the Approach Trail - and then got off that road to follow Cochran Creek (downstream) where it crosses, hoping to find his way to safety? That he wound up off of ANY trail or road and spent two full days lost and winding up where he did is puzzling and plays into a possible medical event that brought on confusion or panic or loss of mental function very early on during the hike. It doesn't seem likely hypothermia would have been in play on day 1 after only climbing the stairs to the top of the falls (1.4 miles) or even a bit further. Hopefully Emergency Services and the Medical Examiner can put together some likely scenario. It's such a very sad story.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Thanks for getting us back to the ballpark of a real, human conversation, 4eyedbuzzard, but I think you can safely presume that everyone reading this knows that northern GA isn't 'flat suburban Texas'. Most of us have probably been there/done that - I'll bet you have, and if you make the same wager about me, you'll be a correct as well. So... as far as your first two 'only if's...', that is precisely what I was referring to when I wrote that the 'dispatcher presumably should have been able to DIRECT Mr. Noonkester to tell them his location'. Among the numerous unanswered questions is whether the 911 operator knew how to access long/lat on the phone, and subsequently attempted to guide Mr. Noonkester to share this potentially life-saving info. As far as satellite connections go, I'm certainly no expert, but the claim that one can have a cell phone conversation yet not be able to see long/lat on phone seems dubious (again, not saying it's not possible). Guthook and GPS seems to have a MUCH greater range than cell phone calling, and guthook sure seems to work everywhere on the trail these days.Well, you might be surprised how many thru-hikers are shocked at how mountainous northern GA is. But that aside, Guthook maps are already downloaded so a cell signal isn't required - only GPS. But, honestly, why do you assume that 911 operators have foolproof access to lat/long data? They don't in many cases due to the caller's phone not resolving the location or the 911 equipment not being able to. Also note that the 911 dispatcher stated that Mr Noonkester seemed confused, so even if he (Mr N) could have viewed his own location, he might not have been able to do so or communicate that info due to confusion.

[Slo-go'en]

I don't know what kind of phone you got, but mine does not display location data unless I pull up a map.

However, I have location enabled, along with Google Emergency Location Service. The GELS automatically sends location data when making a 911 call. But the 911 center needs to have the ability to see that data and not all do. This is an Android feature and must be enabled. Not sure if it is turned on by default or not. Since mine is turned on, it's probably default. Apple phones must have a similar feature.

The weather history link which was posted on page 4 is interesting. It rained like crazy on Thursday the 13, and not again until the next Tuesday. But these are weather stations are in the valley. We all know that higher up conditions can be much different, with fog and drizzle lingering for some time. It was also on the chilly side Sat and Sun.

If he did indeed head out on Friday, only getting as far as the hike inn trail is strange. Could he have been lost all that time?

Way too many questions and not nearly enough info.

[treroach]

I don't know what kind of phone you got, but mine does not display location data unless I pull up a map. My last phone had long/lat info on the compass page, my new one requires that I pull up a map - both are Smartphones. Way too many questions and not nearly enough info.Truth. That 911 call is key, but the entire SAR failure has us all bewildered, I believe. Was he 'cramped', 'confused', or both? When I first saw the story on Monday, the authorities were not asking for volunteers. Why the heck not, if they knew he was out there? Why wasn't the alarm raised to highest level with all hands and volunteers on deck immediately? Was it something from the call that led to a seemingly muted response on Monday? Nimblewill expressed this concern better than I have here. Until the 911 call is public info, too many essential questions will remain unanswered.


You might be surprised how many thru-hikers are shocked at how mountainous northern GA is.
It's not the ignorance of thru-hikers that would surprise me, but rather the ignorance of Whiteblaze posters that would. Again, I think it's a safe assumption that everyone reading/writing here knows the area - not to mention we've probably all seen Deliverance!


Guthook maps are already downloaded so a cell signal isn't required - only GPS.
Right, and although again I'm not an expert, from what knowledge I do have through experience and from what I've found from quick searches today, it doesn't seem possible that someone can make a call, yet not have GPS. IOW, if you can make a call and you have GPS (which almost every phone does), your GPS should be working.

Why do you assume that 911 operators have foolproof access to lat/long data?
I DO NOT assume that; I do assume that almost everyone has it on their phone, and further, that if one can make a phone call, the GPS is functional.

First, my sincere condolences to his family. And in discussing Eddie's tragic death, I in no way wish to diminish their loss. But as many of us here may quite literally follow in his footsteps, it's important for us to have an idea of what may have happened and what may have gone wrong leading to this tragedy. Unfortunately, when things go wrong, it's important to answer the "who, what, why, etc." to better learn how to prevent such events happening to others.
I think it's safe to say that you speak for all of us here - and well said. This is a tragedy that tears at the heart. It's a 'how could this happen?' unlike anything I've seen since Inchworm. In that case, it seems like almost everything that could have been done was done, but to no avail (D. Dauphinee's 'When You Find My Body' is a great read). In this case, there are disturbing signs that not everything was done. For now, the mystery of this case is certainly equal in magnitude to that which surrounded Ms. Largay's case before the discovery of her remains.

[gpburdelljr]

Way too many questions and not nearly enough info.

That says it all. Not enough data.

[stephanD]

There's not much I can add to this conversation, but my own experience. In 2017, I did a section from Newfound Gap to Springer, and then the 8.8 miles approach trail to Amicalola State Park. It was in August late afternoon. My first thought was, "how lucky I am to go southbound". If you are northbound, it is a constant incline of 8.8 miles. My next memory is, how isolated this section can be. It is very strange. You are so close to civilization, and at the same time, you take a wrong step, and you find yourself in a very deep ravine. I hope his family and friends can find some condolences in that he did what he wanted to do. There's no much else to say.

[4eyedbuzzard]

...When I first saw the story on Monday, the authorities were not asking for volunteers. Why the heck not, if they knew he was out there? Why wasn't the alarm raised to highest level with all hands and volunteers on deck immediately?Because the absolute last thing needed when trying to rescue a lost or injured person is having to rescue lost or injured volunteers. Unless the volunteers are organized and trained, they can often create more problems than they solve. People mean well. But without verified knowledge of their skills and capabilities, sending them out in bad weather in a mountain rescue situation is asking for additional trouble.

As to GPS and cell phones and the current state of E911 in many locales: By using AGPS and location services/sharing, Dominos can deliver a pizza right to your picnic table in a park - but E911 isn't guaranteed to even find you, nevermind save your life if you choke on a piece of pepperoni. 911 dispatchers still rely mostly on reported locations from the caller as there are too many instances where GPS data is inaccurate or unavailable due to technical problems and/or equipment limitations.

Read up a bit on how GPS and AGPS work, especially in relation cell phones, and more so in areas with physical obstacles like mountains, trees, and such; GPS fix times, almanac and ephemeris data and such and how it all works; 911, esp E911 and legacy equipment, upgrade costs for PSAP's and rural emergency services, etc. Sorry, but it just isn't as simple logistically nor technologically as you seem to assume.

[Traveler]

I would like to see a factual summary of events, without speculation, of what went wrong.
In studies of outdoor fatalities, it's never one thing, it's cascading errors, problems, and weather, many factors.
We need to learn something from this sad event... it can happen to anybody.

Indeed it can happen to anyone. It can happen to those who are not well prepared or in good physical shape and can happen to the most experienced and well equipped, as we have seen over the years. To paraphrase an old aviation quote, "The mountains, much like the sea, are not necessarily dangerous in and of themselves, they are simply intolerant of carelessness or mistakes". Though it is never pleasant to discuss accidents and events that have caused a death, understanding the events that led to it often helps others avoid a similar circumstance. It's a time honored way to increase our collective knowledge of a specific set of circumstances and honors the victim(s) by learning from them.

The chain of events that lead to life threatening situations can be difficult to see as the links are being forged and seem minor. Having a heady goal of some type like reaching a summit creating what I call the "blind ambition" (aka "get there-its) scenario, or a medical condition like hypothermia that reduces cognitive ability and increases the potential for poor decisions. When hiking alone these circumstances can be deadly as one can ignore personal minimums or not recognize the slow, nearly imperceptible loss of mental faculties. It then becomes important to have set hard guardrails or minimums that are easily recalled and are not ignored as they may be the only thing standing between life and death.

Since I hike alone most of the time, I use the "3-Strikes" rule, a fairly straight forward concept that allows for some unplanned issues that develop but puts a stop-line in place. For example a late start that puts the return close to sunset, weather development that I have marginal gear for, gear failure of any type or conditions requiring different gear, or if I am with someone else and observe a change in physical/mental condition. While none of these are in and of themselves critical, when all are added together they can easily be. In combination to 3-strikes, I also use an old bromide "if there's a doubt, there is no doubt" to help make decisions. This is a simple way to remind myself if there is a doubt about conditions or other aspect of the hike, there is no doubt it should be addressed.

If one looks at accidents and circumstances that have been fatal, there are usually many seemingly minor issues or links in the chain that seemed innocent at the time they occurred but would later become one of the lynch pins that led to a bad ending. Breaking the chain of events is dependent on recognizing these small issues and addressing them. Though it sounds kind of corny, having a rote saying that has the potential to push through the daze of exhaustion, hypothermia, or fear and/or panic, can reduce the potential of making a wrong decision that leads to an unfortunate end.

[John B]

This:


The chain of events that lead to life threatening situations can be difficult to see as the links are being forged and seem minor, there is a heady goal of some type like reaching a summit creating what I call the "blind ambition" (aka "get there-its) scenario, or a medical condition like hypothermia that reduces cognitive ability. When hiking alone these circumstances can be deadly as one can become self-driven to ignore personal minimums or recognizing the slow, nearly imperceptible loss of mental faculties. When hiking without anyone with you to help make decisions or observations of mental/physical condition, it's important to have set hard guardrails or minimums that will be easily recalled and are not passed by as they may be the only thing standing between life and death.

And especially this:

To that end there are a few guardrails one can put into place that can help mitigate conditions that are leading to a life threatening situation. Since I hike alone most of the time, I use the "3-Strikes" rule, a fairly straight forward concept that allows for some unplanned issues that develop but puts a stop-line in place. For example a late start that puts the return close to sunset, weather development that I have marginal gear for, gear failure of any type or conditions requiring different gear, or if I am with someone else and observe a change in physical/mental condition.
I also use an old bromide "if there's a doubt, there is no doubt" to help make decisions. This is a simple way to remind myself if there is a doubt about conditions or other aspect of the hike, there is no doubt it should be addressed.

[Virginia2020]

Sad ... ...

lets all take a moment .....

Please make donations to rescue teams, we can always use a little help....

Mountaineering insurance is not a bad investment. Some jurisdictions charge the person who was rescued....American Alpine Club has great policies, I have used them for several mountaineering trips, its about $45.00 per month

[treroach]

Traveler - Thanks for sharing great wisdom there; those are truly words to live by.

4eyedbuzzard - I was hiking the AT near Stratton, ME, in July 2013, when I was surprised to see a man and his canine companion emerge from the 'impenetrable forest'. They were locals who were a part of the massive SAR effort to find Inchworm. We all know the unfortunate ending, but there's no doubt the effort to find her was substantial. And although I'm not well-versed with cell phones, I have a little more understanding of SAR. You are certainly right that managing volunteers can be an enormous task in itself, and that on occasion, the risk of having volunteers involved can outweigh the potential benefit. This does not appear to be such an occasion. Additionally, there were numerous offers at least as early as Monday from well-qualified, professional units to which the local authorities responded with 'at this time, we are not seeking assistance'. Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but we now know that the 'problem' wasn't solved, and the 'additional trouble' of having more searchers may have, in fact, saved a life. BTW, I did read up a bit on cell phones/GPS and spoke with a few people who know much more than I do about the technology (not hard to find someone who fits the description!)... everything I've turned up so far indicates that, if you can make a phone call, your phone's GPS can tell you where you are. If you can provide any source that indicates otherwise, I'd be obliged. Take care - as you know, I'm also a 'metroplexer', but I spent several years living up in NH as well, and always consider the Whites my 'second home'.

[CalebJ]

BTW, I did read up a bit on cell phones/GPS and spoke with a few people who know much more than I do about the technology (not hard to find someone who fits the description!)... everything I've turned up so far indicates that, if you can make a phone call, your phone's GPS can tell you where you are. If you can provide any source that indicates otherwise, I'd be obliged. Take care - as you know, I'm also a 'metroplexer', but I spent several years living up in NH as well, and always consider the Whites my 'second home'.

GPS and cell service are two fundamentally different systems. One relies on terrestrial towers to make a phone call, the other is listening for time signals coming from orbiting satellites. Without a connection to those satellites, at best you get a vague triangulation of position based on cellular data assuming more than one tower picked up the signal from your phone.

[treroach]

GPS and cell service are two fundamentally different systems.

Thanks, CalebJ, but I get that. As an analogy, the high jump and the slam dunk are fundamentally different endeavors, but if you can high jump over 7', you're going to be capable of giving Vince Carter a run for his money - even if you're only as tall as Spud Webb. Similarly, my point is that if you can make a cell phone call, you're going to have GPS on that phone. If you're making the claim that, in fact, it's possible that this scenario is not true (i.e. that one can make a call and yet not have enough satellite connection to have a GPS reading), more clarity would be appreciated. Even better, can you provide any evidence? The best evidence, of course, would be to go to the HI trail, open your phone and check it out. I'll be able to do this in less than two months. Until then, anything else you can provide would be appreciated - no more explanation of the technology is necessary.

[CalebJ]

I can't tell if you're just trolling us at this point.

What I attempted to explain in my previous posts is that the two systems don't rely on the same connections. It is entirely possible to have a connection to cell service and not GPS or vice versa depending on the environment at hand.

[Nanatuk]

What I attempted to explain in my previous posts is that the two systems don't rely on the same connections. It is entirely possible to have a connection to cell service and not GPS or vice versa depending on the environment at hand.

True Statement. You can have cell coverage and be able to make and receive calls without having a GPS fix. This happens all the time when in tunnels, in buildings, in canyons and under heavy tree canopy that GPS signals are not able to penetrate. Of course you could also have the GPS function turned off and still make calls.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Traveler - Thanks for sharing great wisdom there; those are truly words to live by.

4eyedbuzzard - I was hiking the AT near Stratton, ME, in July 2013, when I was surprised to see a man and his canine companion emerge from the 'impenetrable forest'. They were locals who were a part of the massive SAR effort to find Inchworm. We all know the unfortunate ending, but there's no doubt the effort to find her was substantial. And although I'm not well-versed with cell phones, I have a little more understanding of SAR. You are certainly right that managing volunteers can be an enormous task in itself, and that on occasion, the risk of having volunteers involved can outweigh the potential benefit. This does not appear to be such an occasion. Additionally, there were numerous offers at least as early as Monday from well-qualified, professional units to which the local authorities responded with 'at this time, we are not seeking assistance'. Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but we now know that the 'problem' wasn't solved, and the 'additional trouble' of having more searchers may have, in fact, saved a life. BTW, I did read up a bit on cell phones/GPS and spoke with a few people who know much more than I do about the technology (not hard to find someone who fits the description!)... everything I've turned up so far indicates that, if you can make a phone call, your phone's GPS can tell you where you are. If you can provide any source that indicates otherwise, I'd be obliged. Take care - as you know, I'm also a 'metroplexer', but I spent several years living up in NH as well, and always consider the Whites my 'second home'.Hey, I agree that under most conditions if a phone can connect to make a call that it also probably can get and even transmit a GPS fix. But if they (Dawson County) couldn't access the GPS data on the emergency services side (which isn't always possible with old technology or in remote areas), or if the wireless carrier couldn't access location data (and they might only know which tower his phone pinged which would only give them a radius if there weren't two or three of the same carriers towers "visible"), or if he didn't know how to use his phone's apps to access GPS coordinates and then verbally communicate the GPS coordinates to emergency services, they (911) just simply wouldn't have GPS coordinates. There are also legal/privacy issues regarding this stuff, but they are off-topic.

Remember that according to reports, they only had a idea of his general location at a certain point of time (the call and then the later ping), likely estimated from his start point, anticipated route, and a tower location and it's effective coverage area due to terrain. But his phone went off line/dead after they were able to ping it the one time after the actual voice call. They (911) never reported having a GPS fix from his phone - only a general area location, but even if they did, if he was moving it was stale info by the time they got resources out. We just don't have the details. He lived in Eden, NC approx 300 miles from Amicalola Falls. When GPS receivers are moved large distances, they often need updated almanac and ephemeral data in order to resolve a fix. So, there is also the possible scenario that he had no data service or access to an aGPS server because he was roaming or had a limited data plan of some sort, and/or never turned his phone on until after he was lost and placed the call, resulting in GPS data not being able to be resolved - it could take quite some time for his phone to resolve a GPS fix if the almanac and ephemeral data had to be updated via satellite data speeds (and I quite honestly don't even know if all phone GPS systems will download using that method, I only assume that they do).

[Slo-go'en]

Well, for what ever reason they weren't able to get a decent fix on his location.

I just checked my flip phone. Emergency location data is an option which came factory disabled. Maybe I should turn it on? It's possible this is the default setting for cell phones. I think Google turned on the emergency location data option when I enabled their location services for maps on my smart phone.

The mystery still remains - how did he end up where he was found and for what reason?

[treroach]

When GPS receivers are moved large distances, they often need updated almanac and ephemeral data in order to resolve a fix. So, there is also the possible scenario that he had no data service and/or never turned his phone on until after he was lost and placed the call, resulting in GPS data not being available - it could take quite some time for his phone to resolve a GPS fix if the almanac and ephemeral data had to be updated via satellite data speeds (and I don't even know if phone GPS will download using that method).

Yes, that's just what I was thinking based on what I've been learning about GPS through this informative discussion.

Before seeing your post, I was just about to send the following:

Personally, I have never had been ever to use my cell phone without my GPS working as well. I can't recall ever having a cell phone conversation in a tunnel either, but you may have better reception where you are of course (and you may have more tunnels as well!). Having thru-hiked the AT twice over the last decade, and hiked the New England section an additional two times, I have never had this happen to me. Last year, I hiked from Pawling, NY, to Katahdin, and GPS worked everywhere 100%, while cell phone service was spotty at best in places. I hope these credentials dispel the trolling nonsense.

Nearly everything I've researched over the last few days, and the few knowledgeable people I've asked about this points to an extremely low probability of having cell phone coverage without GPS capability. The two systems, in fact, are not so separate anymore it seems, so the already low probability is diminishing further with the spread of 'Assisted GPS'.

From quora.com: The GPS receivers in phones (and probably cellular-equipped tablets) are designed to work with “aiding” by the cellular radio under normal circumstances. The idea is that the cellular base station has a GPS receiver operating continuously anyway (for timing reference), so it can be used to collect satellite ephemeris and almanac data during normal operation, which is passed to connected phones via the cellular data channel. With that data in hand, plus the location of the base station, the GPS in the phone can do a “hot start”, acquiring enough satellite signals for a location fix in a few seconds.

Probably time to drop this call (pardon a bad pun), but again: GPS has worked for me and every other hiker I've been with on the AT 100% of the time (admittedly, I don't look at phone constantly while hiking, but I saw my long/lat every time I look at my phone's compass). Is your experience different? If so, I'd be curious to know where on the AT (or any blue blazed trail within a mile or so) did you not have GPS - and yet find that you could make a call?

[Slo-go'en]

It's not an issue of not getting GPS data. It's an issue of is that data shared? Was location sharing turned on? And if you share it, can the other end decode it?

You don't need a cell tower to get GPS, since that comes from space. However, if a cell tower is in range, it's location can be used to help narrow the window of uncertainty of the satellite data. So, instead of say +/- 100 feet, you location can be resolved to just a few feet. But this is another option you can turn on or off.

[SawnieRobertson]

We arrive at Amicolala SP excited to be about to begin our long-awaited, exciting backpack. We could have made an arrangement to be dropped off at the base of Springer, but we wanted all the traditions--signing the register and accepting our hiker number at the park office, hearing the advice and warnings that those who work within the Amicolala system believe should be understood by anyone who is beginning a thruhike. We remove our fully loaded backpack, hang it outside on the scale hook, and gasp at what it reveals. Still undaunted, we walk along the path behind the building that leads to The Arch. Once we are across its threshold, we become a thruhiker. It is a life changing moment.

Reality changes quickly. We are on our own. And, although it has yet to fully come to our attention, even with many humans still within voice range, we are substantially on our own. Even a small mistake can be unforgiving, but we do not yet lose our sense of invincibility. We get an anxious feeling that things are not quite right. Where are those WHITE BLAZES? Make the call now. Being lost leads to panic. Panic can lead to very bad decisions. Breathe and drop that tent.

I am so glad that he decided to make the call. A connection was made. Someone else besides him knew that he was in trouble. The next step from that moment, according to all studies I have made, would be to STAY PUT. Hopefully he made the call early enough to still had his essential gear on his back. If he has not thrown off their weight in some undergrowth,possibly thinking he could return to get it, he has all he needs with him in that pack to last him until he is found. Starting out from town or even Amicolala SP, his pack is probably loaded with enough to keep him safe, dry, fed, watered, and reasonably warm. By the time he made the call, he was probably way past the beginnings of hypothermia, but he had to be his own rescuer. It is heartbreaking to think of his disappointment at not being able to have the thruhike he had wanted.

[Decibel]

Just checked the compass on my phone. To my surprise the GPS location date was there. Very good information to know as I learned something today. I will pass this info on to everyone that I know as I think that most of us are quite unaware on this matter.

[Adriana]

This article highlights the issues of locating a person via cell phone, assuming you have a strong signal. You certainly can’t count on it on the trail. https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/02/22/student-died-911-call-location/

[Five Tango]

Just checked the compass on my phone. To my surprise the GPS location date was there. Very good information to know as I learned something today. I will pass this info on to everyone that I know as I think that most of us are quite unaware on this matter.

Ditto.Despite this thread being inspired by Mr Noonkester's death it is important we discuss pertinent information related to the case.I just downloaded a digital compass gps app on my phone yesterday and got familiar with it.
Surprisingly,it not only indicates my street address and GPS Coordinates,I can also share that info by emailing it.
I would think this app is satellite driven but I wouldn't know,anybody certain?

I did notice that the compass requires the traditional figure 8 movements to make it work correctly so,no,I don't trust the compass on it unless the sun is out where I can see it.I don't expect to count on it on trail in a real emergency either which is why I ALWAYS have a real compass like my Silva and a paper map;preferably the moisture resistant ones.

I would expect to be able to use it to great effect in the event I was broken down on the side of the road in an automobile.In that instance it would be priceless.But you can get the same info off Google Maps for that matter.

Sadly,this tragedy would likely have been avoided had Mr Noonkester had a plb in his possession and used it in time.Personally,I would never go solo without one and I have been known to carry it on group hikes also.

[Paleolith54]

Ditto.Despite this thread being inspired by Mr Noonkester's death it is important we discuss pertinent information related to the case.I just downloaded a digital compass gps app on my phone yesterday and got familiar with it.
Surprisingly,it not only indicates my street address and GPS Coordinates,I can also share that info by emailing it.
I would think this app is satellite driven but I wouldn't know,anybody certain?

I did notice that the compass requires the traditional figure 8 movements to make it work correctly so,no,I don't trust the compass on it unless the sun is out where I can see it.I don't expect to count on it on trail in a real emergency either which is why I ALWAYS have a real compass like my Silva and a paper map;preferably the moisture resistant ones.

I would expect to be able to use it to great effect in the event I was broken down on the side of the road in an automobile.In that instance it would be priceless.But you can get the same info off Google Maps for that matter.

Sadly,this tragedy would likely have been avoided had Mr Noonkester had a plb in his possession and used it in time.Personally,I would never go solo without one and I have been known to carry it on group hikes also.

Good point on location data, BUT some apps use degrees-minutes-seconds and others use decimals. It's easy to imagine someone who is disoriented or on the verge of panic not communicating which they are using and the wrong location being established as the target. It's also easy to imagine a marginally -trained 911 operator not sensing ambiguity and writing down one instead of the other. Just something else to keep in mind.

[Five Tango]

Good point on location data, BUT some apps use degrees-minutes-seconds and others use decimals. It's easy to imagine someone who is disoriented or on the verge of panic not communicating which they are using and the wrong location being established as the target. It's also easy to imagine a marginally -trained 911 operator not sensing ambiguity and writing down one instead of the other. Just something else to keep in mind.

My plb requires the ability to raise the antenna and push a button.5 watts of power,registered to my name,alerts
the military is my understanding.For roughly $300 it's the cheapest insurance policy I have ever bot.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Just a note about PLB's though. We all know nothing is foolproof and if conditions are bad, well... Case in point - Kate Matrosova in the Whites in 2015. Her PLB location kept changing confusing S&R who were dealing with the extreme weather as well. Also, if it's for some reason not a GPS enabled unit (most are and why buy one that isn't), or if it doesn't have a GPS fix, the signal position data can be delayed due to satellite positioning/2nd pass time, up to 1 1/2 hours. Still, probably the most reliable SOS device available. Second would likely be satellite messengers like an InReach. Both are far better than a cell phone in remote areas.

[treroach]

The Kate Matrosova incident is a fascinating one as well - thanks for mentioning it for those who might not be familiar with it. In that case, the conditions were 'extreme' by any measure. I believe that one reason Mr. Noonkester's case is so haunting and vexing - besides the fact that we, the public, have so many unanswered questions at this point - is that the conditions were in no way comparable. Of course, the elements were serious enough to present life-threatening circumstances to those without the requisite knowledge, skills, and gear, but those conditions are rather common for hikers to face this time of year. And obviously many, many hikers choose to deal with them. Few would venture to put themselves in the kind of environment in which Ms. Matrosova perished.

[Decibel]

I do carry a PLB. thus far I've never had to use it but it's well worth bringing it along whether hiking or kayaking.

[Five Tango]

This is what I purchased and it has no monthly subscription costs.And it is supposed to work when necessary.
https://hikingguy.com/hiking-gear/acr-resqlink-review/

[ldsailor]

Maybe I missed it as I'm thinking someone must have mentioned this. There are many free GPS applications out there. I've had as many as three at one time on my phone. Currently, I have GPS Status. It's home screen has GPS latitude and longitude coordinates and a compass. Additionally, it has calibration capabilities for just about everything that requires calibration on my phone including the compass, accelerometer, gyroscope, gravity, etc.

I can't imagine ever getting irretrievably lost on a hiking trail, but if I do, that app and Guthook would be accessed immediately. I would use Guthook and the GPS compass (I carry a handheld compass, too) to try to navigate out and the GPS app to report my latitude and longitude position if I felt that was necessary (and I could make a phone connection).

I point this out, because I believe everyone should have a GPS app. I wouldn't rely on Google Maps especially if you can't get a data connection. Giving exact latitude and longitude coordinates to SAR/911 is about the best information you can give them. Even if the 911 operator doesn't understand what you are giving them, they can still write the information down.

[Traveler]

A valid reminder that electronic communications and fish finder GPS systems are not all that reliable when most needed it seems. That should be plan B, what are you using for Plan A to recognize you are in trouble and get out while you can?

[Five Tango]

The whole idea behind the Resqlink is that it uses satellites and not cell towers.Works in the gravest extreme and will call the helicopter if you need one.(better be a life threatening situation if you use it though or you might have some explaining to do....)

[peakbagger]

The Kate Matrosova incident is a fascinating one as well - thanks for mentioning it for those who might not be familiar with it. In that case, the conditions were 'extreme' by any measure. I believe that one reason Mr. Noonkester's case is so haunting and vexing - besides the fact that we, the public, have so many unanswered questions at this point - is that the conditions were in no way comparable. Of course, the elements were serious enough to present life-threatening circumstances to those without the requisite knowledge, skills, and gear, but those conditions are rather common for hikers to face this time of year. And obviously many, many hikers choose to deal with them. Few would venture to put themselves in the kind of environment in which Ms. Matrosova perished.

The TY Gagne book on the Kate M death is probably as close an investigation we will ever see of the incident. The claim is that Kate properly deployed the PLB antenna and then put it back in her pack where it was found when they found her body. That PLB model is designed that before it can be turned on the antenna has to be unwrapped. Given the winds and the predictions of her state of mental awareness it would have been unlikely that she could have kept it deployed. The PLB instructions are fairly specific that the antenna must be deployed for it to work properly. That it even put signals out at all for some period of time is surprising inside a pack with the antenna crumpled up. The intent of the PLB design is that the GPS signal marks a general location for the rescuers to head to and then there is radio beacon used to hone in on the PLB. The Civil Air Patrol deployed a plane with a radio direction finder to the site and they had strong signal from the beacon from quite a distance. Unfortunately the area was in the equivalent of a winter hurricane and both the CAP plane and rescue helicopter was unable to get near enough the site to give any fine directions so the rescuers had to depend on the GPS. A general note is that the title of the book is based on the speculation by one individual that Kate deployed the PLB not as a rescue attempt but as direction on to where the rescuers would find her body.

Note with the deployment of several low earth orbit satellite systems int he next few years, I expect there is going to be an increase in the quality of signal reception for various Spot like devices. Iridium has been updating their constellation and improving their ability for signal reception. I expect if folks want or need to be tracked in near real time and are willing to pay for it they will be able to do so with greater accuracy in the future.

[Mockernut]

I finally looked at my NatGeo map of the area last night. Cochran falls is shown just below the Len Foote Hike Inn. Looks like maybe a half mile from that trail as the crow flies. There is a trail (not marked on map but used by locals) to visit the falls from a gravel road. I think that is what bothers me, and apparently most of us, is that he was so close to all this for days.

[perdidochas]

Ditto.Despite this thread being inspired by Mr Noonkester's death it is important we discuss pertinent information related to the case.I just downloaded a digital compass gps app on my phone yesterday and got familiar with it.
Surprisingly,it not only indicates my street address and GPS Coordinates,I can also share that info by emailing it.
I would think this app is satellite driven but I wouldn't know,anybody certain?

I did notice that the compass requires the traditional figure 8 movements to make it work correctly so,no,I don't trust the compass on it unless the sun is out where I can see it.I don't expect to count on it on trail in a real emergency either which is why I ALWAYS have a real compass like my Silva and a paper map;preferably the moisture resistant ones.

I would expect to be able to use it to great effect in the event I was broken down on the side of the road in an automobile.In that instance it would be priceless.But you can get the same info off Google Maps for that matter.

Sadly,this tragedy would likely have been avoided had Mr Noonkester had a plb in his possession and used it in time.Personally,I would never go solo without one and I have been known to carry it on group hikes also.

The GPS is satellite driven. The App is probably cell phone data driven. However, you can download maps onto phones using certain apps. Google maps (for driving) gives that option.

[perdidochas]

Maybe I missed it as I'm thinking someone must have mentioned this. There are many free GPS applications out there. I've had as many as three at one time on my phone. Currently, I have GPS Status. It's home screen has GPS latitude and longitude coordinates and a compass. Additionally, it has calibration capabilities for just about everything that requires calibration on my phone including the compass, accelerometer, gyroscope, gravity, etc.

I can't imagine ever getting irretrievably lost on a hiking trail, but if I do, that app and Guthook would be accessed immediately. I would use Guthook and the GPS compass (I carry a handheld compass, too) to try to navigate out and the GPS app to report my latitude and longitude position if I felt that was necessary (and I could make a phone connection).

I point this out, because I believe everyone should have a GPS app. I wouldn't rely on Google Maps especially if you can't get a data connection. Giving exact latitude and longitude coordinates to SAR/911 is about the best information you can give them. Even if the 911 operator doesn't understand what you are giving them, they can still write the information down.
You can download offline maps to Google maps. While probably not the best for offroad usage, it is a good way to have a map when cell signal is spotty. When I travel out of my local area, I download offline maps of the area I'm travelling to.

[Paleolith54]

The GPS is satellite driven. The App is probably cell phone data driven. However, you can download maps onto phones using certain apps. Google maps (for driving) gives that option.

The compass app that comes standard on my Iphone (which also displays lat/long) runs off the GPS chip, so no cell signal needed. Anything is possible, but I'd be surprised to find an app like that that relied on having cell reception.

[4eyedbuzzard]

The compass app that comes standard on my Iphone (which also displays lat/long) runs off the GPS chip, so no cell signal needed. Anything is possible, but I'd be surprised to find an app like that that relied on having cell reception.I believe the GPS Essentials app runs on my Android phone without a data (cell) connection. Test: I tried it with cell data and wifi off. It did take significantly longer to get a fix (up to about 2 minutes), but it did work. Says I'm outside, about 15 ft on the other side of the wall from where I'm sitting. It seems to go in and out and lose its lock/fix from time to time - but this is inside a house with a metal roof as well. So it works pretty darn well all things considered. I know that Guthooks definitely works without cell data, as will google maps - but only if you download the necessary map/trip in advance of leaving cellular data range (and don't close the maps app).

[Uncle Joe]

The compass app that comes standard on my Iphone (which also displays lat/long) runs off the GPS chip, so no cell signal needed. Anything is possible, but I'd be surprised to find an app like that that relied on having cell reception.
I occasionally find the Compass app on the iPhone to be miscalibrated and found that shaking the phone resets it. I've stood on an overlook clearly looking South and have it tell me it was North.

[shelb]

Very bizzar. Sudden onset of Dementia could explain it.

Apparently they found some of his personal stuff near the hike inn. The first artical sounded like he had left all of it. I'd guess they found the daypack shown in the picture.

Hope they find him soon and he has enough wits to use the gear he has with him.

Family mentioned "confusion" - so sad... and hard for the family....

[Paleolith54]

I occasionally find the Compass app on the iPhone to be miscalibrated and found that shaking the phone resets it. I've stood on an overlook clearly looking South and have it tell me it was North.

Yeah, it spooks me too. I never use it, just making a point about cell signal vs GPS in relation to navigation apps in general.

[ldsailor]

I don't know of any smart phone GPS app that requires a cell phone connection. GPS Status doesn't require it, and I have had GPS Essentials on my phone and it did not require it. How do I know? Well, I used both at various times to check position when hundreds of miles offshore in a sailboat. No cell towers out there!

[gpburdelljr]

I don't know of any smart phone GPS app that requires a cell phone connection. GPS Status doesn't require it, and I have had GPS Essentials on my phone and it did not require it. How do I know? Well, I used both at various times to check position when hundreds of miles offshore in a sailboat. No cell towers out there!
You don’t need a cell connection to get GPS coordinates on a smart phone, but if you want a map to go with the coordinates you either need a cell connection, or have the maps already downloaded on the phone.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

I occasionally find the Compass app on the iPhone to be miscalibrated and found that shaking the phone resets it. I've stood on an overlook clearly looking South and have it tell me it was North.

You're just ahead of your time (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2018/02/earth-magnetic-field-flip-poles-spinning-magnet-alanna-mitchell/)

Hiking alone was the risk he accepted. If this happened 30 years ago, he'd have been found in a few weeks, not a few days. Satellites and cell-towers do not make you safer. I say get on the self reliance train or stay home.

[John B]

...Hiking alone was the risk he accepted...

With all due respect to you and to the deceased and his family, and from what tiny bits of info that are public from the sheriff and his family, and from reading perhaps more between the lines than I should, I am not convinced that he knew the risks or was capable of making clear, reasoned decisions, not just during the time he was disoriented/lost, but even before the trip began.

[Tipi Walter]

With all due respect to you and to the deceased and his family, and from what tiny bits of info that are public from the sheriff and his family, and from reading perhaps more between the lines than I should, I am not convinced that he knew the risks or was capable of making clear, reasoned decisions, not just during the time he was disoriented/lost, but even before the trip began.

Thanks for bringing the topic back to Mr Eddie Noonkester and his unfortunate demise. I guess with so little information coming from the authorities this thread inevitably had to drift to smartphones and GPS/AGPS systems and 911 dispatchers and the GELS system and cellphone towers and Guthook and PLB's and low earth orbit satellites and Google maps and Iphone compass apps and all the rest. So many peripheral words but so little actual facts on the incident.

[Paleolith54]

Thanks for bringing the topic back to Mr Eddie Noonkester and his unfortunate demise. I guess with so little information coming from the authorities this thread inevitably had to drift to smartphones and GPS/AGPS systems and 911 dispatchers and the GELS system and cellphone towers and Guthook and PLB's and low earth orbit satellites and Google maps and Iphone compass apps and all the rest. So many peripheral words but so little actual facts on the incident.

Back when I paddled lots of whitewater (including your neck of the woods, actually) American Whitewater would publish pretty detailed reports of incidents where paddlers were injured or killed, with an emphasis on lessons learned. And I suppose they still do. I haven't seen anything similar in the backpacking world, although it may exist and I just don't know about it. Publications like Backpacker will of course have articles on some events, but they're written for entertainment and seldom seem to give factual blow-by-blow accounts of what happened and talked about how it could be avoided by others.

I don't have a solution, just thinking out loud. Does anyone know of something that exists that serves this function?

[TNhiker]

Back when I paddled lots of whitewater (including your neck of the woods, actually) American Whitewater would publish pretty detailed reports of incidents where paddlers were injured or killed, with an emphasis on lessons learned. And I suppose they still do. I haven't seen anything similar in the backpacking world, although it may exist and I just don't know about it. Publications like Backpacker will of course have articles on some events, but they're written for entertainment and seldom seem to give factual blow-by-blow accounts of what happened and talked about how it could be avoided by others.

I don't have a solution, just thinking out loud. Does anyone know of something that exists that serves this function?



Never seen it for the hiking/backpacking crowd but have seen it for the climbers and mountaineers....

although now now that I think about it—- does the AMC have some in their publication?

i have a subscription to their magazine but haven’t read one in years...

ill have have to look when I get home....

[Tipi Walter]

Back when I paddled lots of whitewater (including your neck of the woods, actually) American Whitewater would publish pretty detailed reports of incidents where paddlers were injured or killed, with an emphasis on lessons learned. And I suppose they still do. I haven't seen anything similar in the backpacking world, although it may exist and I just don't know about it. Publications like Backpacker will of course have articles on some events, but they're written for entertainment and seldom seem to give factual blow-by-blow accounts of what happened and talked about how it could be avoided by others.

I don't have a solution, just thinking out loud. Does anyone know of something that exists that serves this function?

Check out these links---

https://marydonahue.org/fatal-near-fatal-or-close-call-incidentsaccidents-in-camping-backpacking-climbing-and-mountaineering

https://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?1,6123,6123#msg-6123

[TNhiker]

Yeah——just checked the AMC publication “Appalachia” and they have reports of hiking and climbing incidents.....

and, in theory, one could file a freedom of information act paperwork and request incident reports from various government agencies that have helped in a search or rescue.....

[George]

Yeah——just checked the AMC publication “Appalachia” and they have reports of hiking and climbing incidents.....

and, in theory, one could file a freedom of information act paperwork and request incident reports from various government agencies that have helped in a search or rescue.....


that is how the ugly truths came out on inchworm - they were able to delay for 3 yrs till few were paying attention

[George]

With all due respect to you and to the deceased and his family, and from what tiny bits of info that are public from the sheriff and his family, and from reading perhaps more between the lines than I should, I am not convinced that he knew the risks or was capable of making clear, reasoned decisions, not just during the time he was disoriented/lost, but even before the trip began.

which was also a contributing factor in the death of inchworm

[Paleolith54]

that is how the ugly truths came out on inchworm - they were able to delay for 3 yrs till few were paying attention

Who are "they" and why did they delay?

[gpburdelljr]

With all due respect to you and to the deceased and his family, and from what tiny bits of info that are public from the sheriff and his family, and from reading perhaps more between the lines than I should, I am not convinced that he knew the risks or was capable of making clear, reasoned decisions, not just during the time he was disoriented/lost, but even before the trip began.

Reading between the lines says it all. There is simply not enough information to make any judgements. Let him RIP.

[peakbagger]

Never seen it for the hiking/backpacking crowd but have seen it for the climbers and mountaineers....

although now now that I think about it—- does the AMC have some in their publication?

i have a subscription to their magazine but haven’t read one in years...

ill have have to look when I get home....

AMC does analysis of accidents and rescues in Whites in their quarterly Appalachia Journal https://www.outdoors.org/trip-ideas-tips-resources/appalachia. (Note this is not the same as the AMC Outdoors magazine they send out to members). I do not subscribe but have seen various reports they have done over the years and they are done objectively and triy to come to conclusions on the most likely scenario. The NH F&G department that directs all rescues in the state have debriefing sessions with the participants in the rescues after the rescue is over. They discuss what went right and what went wrong and try to add "lessons learned" as appropriate to future training scenarios. These are generally not public record.

Frequently families want closure but they also want privacy to mourn their loved ones. The major approach to a family finding closure is for the professionals to reassure them that everything was done to find their loved one and to return the remains with as much dignity as possible. There was case in the whites 20 years ago where a child got lost in hypothermic conditions and was found deceased after an extensive search. The family was unable to get closure and for years would pop up trying to force the case to be reopened as they could not accept that it was not foul play despite no evidence to the contrary.

[TNhiker]

AMC does analysis of accidents and rescues in Whites in their quarterly Appalachia Journal https://www.outdoors.org/trip-ideas-...ces/appalachia (https://www.outdoors.org/trip-ideas-tips-resources/appalachia). (Note this is not the same as the AMC Outdoors magazine they send out to members)



yeah....

i went back and looked and made post #135





They discuss what went right and what went wrong and try to add "lessons learned" as appropriate to future training scenarios. These are generally not public record.



that is true-------and for some things that are public record, things get redacted out as well....

that was the case with the bear death in the smokies back in 2000----the report was released by the Park, but lots of stuff was redacted...

they also did not release the photos the lady took before she was attacked.........(she was out dayhiking and taking photos and presumably taking photos of the
bears as they were coming up to her).....





The family was unable to get closure and for years would pop up trying to force the case to be reopened as they could not accept that it was not foul play despite no evidence to the contrary.



yeah...

we---the media----get this a lot with families calling us demanding that there was a coverup or a conspiracy or something like that with a crime or incident that happened
to their loved one.......

[George]

Who are "they" and why did they delay?
Maine warden - only they know why they strung out the info release as long as they could - but logic says because the search was not optimal

[CalebJ]

That seems like a remarkable leap based on no information.

[soilman]

Maine warden - only they know why they strung out the info release as long as they could - but logic says because the search was not optimal
Very unfair statement.

[slammer]

Just saw this on youtube. I was on Blood Mountain during the unexpected foot deep snow they had a few weeks back. North Georgia is definitely a very unforgiving place. I always carry gear for the worst possible situation and it really paid off on Blood Mt. Even still I got beat to crap coming off that mountain, fell countless times. Just had to keep on getting up. Water was also frozen, I ate snow to keep hydrated. Not ideal, but it worked well enough. RIP dude.

[TNhiker]

Water was also frozen, I ate snow to keep hydrated.


didnt have a way to melt it?

[George]

Very unfair statement.
ok, what other explanation for waiting 3 yrs until they were forced to release the report

[LoneStranger]

Just saw this on youtube. I was on Blood Mountain during the unexpected foot deep snow they had a few weeks back. North Georgia is definitely a very unforgiving place. I always carry gear for the worst possible situation and it really paid off on Blood Mt. Even still I got beat to crap coming off that mountain, fell countless times. Just had to keep on getting up. Water was also frozen, I ate snow to keep hydrated. Not ideal, but it worked well enough. RIP dude.

Eating snow adds to risk of hypothermia so using fire or stove to melt it is preferred. You didn't die so we'll count this one as a win either way :)


ok, what other explanation for waiting 3 yrs until they were forced to release the report
Respect for the dead or a conspiracy involving the Maine branch of the Deep State reflecting the light of Venus off swamp gas in order to mislead the sheeple into never suspecting the Reverse Vampires were behind it all. Since you are posting as you are in this thread I'm going to assume respect for the dead isn't a viable explanation as far as you're concerned.

On topic: RIP Eddie.

[litetrek]

I've been watching this thread for awhile to learn about what may have happened. I'm home sick today and have been scouring the news sources on the web about the probable cause - still nothing that I can find. Hopefully the information will be released in order to benefit the hoard of potential thru hikers, many who are very inexperienced, about to hit the trail.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

Respect for the dead or a conspiracy involving the Maine branch of the Deep State reflecting the light of Venus off swamp gas in order to mislead the sheeple into never suspecting the Reverse Vampires were behind it all. Since you are posting as you are in this thread I'm going to assume respect for the dead isn't a viable explanation as far as you're concerned.

On topic: RIP Eddie.
Nonsense. Informing the public about a rescue/recovery that used tax dollars should be SOP. "Respect for the dead" translates into needing a foia request

[CalebJ]

Nonsense. Informing the public about a rescue/recovery that used tax dollars should be SOP. "Respect for the dead" translates into needing a foia request
No.

We don't need the complete, official government write up on every situation that happens. There was more than enough information available -long- before the report was released to make rational decisions about wilderness safety. Assuming that the government held onto a report that wasn't in the slightest way damning as part of some conspiracy is borderline deranged.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

No.

We don't need the complete, official government write up on every situation that happens. There was more than enough information available -long- before the report was released to make rational decisions about wilderness safety. Assuming that the government held onto a report that wasn't in the slightest way damning as part of some conspiracy is borderline deranged.

I was not speaking about any specific incident. I'd like 100% transparency on these types of events. You may trust big brother, I do not

[Slo-go'en]

I was not speaking about any specific incident. I'd like 100% transparency on these types of events. You may trust big brother, I do not

The information is likely available, but you'd have to dig for it. It's not of general interest. The family certainly would want to know what might have happened beyond basic cause of death. Several agencies were likely involved. Are their reports all bundled together or do you have to look for them individually at the appropriate agencies? There maybe privacy issues too.

The details aren't all that important, except knowing cause of death would be helpful in answering some basic questions. Like did he expire from hypothermia, a physical medical condition or an injury? Maybe a combination of all three. One condition can quickly lead to the others.

The important lesson here is don't get lost!

[rickb]

To me addition details would:

A) Inform whether or not the search and rescue response was appropriate to the specific situation and,

B) Help confirm or challenge the notion (which was presented as an absolute by one person in this thread) that the best course of action when lost is to “stay put” and,

C) Potentially help educate the public on issues ranging from hypothermia, to other special considerations that some must consider before heading out on a hike

I would think such details could be done in a respectful rather than a sensational way. They are what they are.

Good to make them public, and widely available IMO.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I was not speaking about any specific incident. I'd like 100% transparency on these types of events. You may trust big brother, I do notYou may like/want that (100% transparency) all you want, but generally HIPPA law applies for up to two years after death and there are also exceptions for denying FOIA requests. Those denials may be due to ongoing investigations, privacy of related parties, etc. Not everything is everybody else's business - even after death. And BTW, if it's Big Brother or a Deep State conspiracy you're looking for, I think you're looking in the wrong place. Government is less competent than you are giving it credit for. If you're looking for a sinister conspiracy, try Google, Facebook, Amazon, your phone carrier, your health insurance company, etc. They're in your head and wallet far more than the government.

[LoneStranger]

Nonsense. Informing the public about a rescue/recovery that used tax dollars should be SOP. "Respect for the dead" translates into needing a foia request
We were informed. Everyone knew enough about what happened to know how to avoid a repeat and there was zero evidence leading to a rational suspicion that the RVs were involved.

Your concern about how my tax dollars are spent is duly noted. As someone from away it will be given appropriate attention.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

.... As someone from away it will be given appropriate attention........
Huh? .

[BradMT]

you may like/want that (100% transparency) all you want, but generally hippa law applies for up to two years after death and there are also exceptions for denying foia requests. Those denials may be due to ongoing investigations, privacy of related parties, etc. Not everything is everybody else's business - even after death. And btw, if it's big brother or a deep state conspiracy you're looking for, i think you're looking in the wrong place. Government is less competent than you are giving it credit for. If you're looking for a sinister conspiracy, try google, facebook, amazon, your phone carrier, your health insurance company, etc. They're in your head and wallet far more than the government.

Well said.

[Traveler]

To me addition details would:

A) Inform whether or not the search and rescue response was appropriate to the specific situation and,

B) Help confirm or challenge the notion (which was presented as an absolute by one person in this thread) that the best course of action when lost is to “stay put” and,

C) Potentially help educate the public on issues ranging from hypothermia, to other special considerations that some must consider before heading out on a hike

I would think such details could be done in a respectful rather than a sensational way. They are what they are.

Good to make them public, and widely available IMO.

This is a good standard to apply to these types of events. What the average hiker (much like pilots with aviation incidents) is looking for is information that helps prevent a similar situation or being able to recognize the links in the chain of events that can lead to a life threatening circumstance. What we cannot do easily is figure out why someone in a specific incident did what they did.

For example, the question of why Kate Matrosova opted to continue into terrible conditions in the White Mountains that led to her death cannot be factually answered and likely never will. But we can learn from the SAR/R report of the weather and terrain conditions, the gear she had, if electronic communication failed or worked, and other evidence starting with the "go" decision. We can't determine if there was a medical issue or a thought process that impacted Gerry Largay's state of mind and caused her to remain in place for a month, but we can determine what the weather and terrain conditions were, see how the search was conducted, know the gear she had, if electronic communication/signal worked or not, and other physical evidence of that incident.

The matter-of--fact language of these reports and that of NTSB and other investigative organizations following an event does provide the information necessary for interested parties to understand the circumstances and perhaps tuck away a fact or two that bubbles up when most needed. 4EB has a good point relative to HIPPA laws that protect patient privacy, which can delay some information release over time and would prevent some issues from being discussed in a report of this nature. However the SAR/R reports dealing with the physical evidence are typically presented in a manner people can learn from. Suggesting there is some kind of conspiracy to conceal evidence reminds me of a cartoon of three guys in a buried RV trailer, sitting around a dilapidated wood stove in their cami gear, eating cold beans from a can with a calendar in back of them showing expired and future "end of civilization" dates. Much as those fellows, we can only guess about why someone did what they did, and like the calendar all we have are the recorded facts in a report.

[litetrek]

Any factual information regarding what may have contributed to the incident beyond the very basic information already provided will potentially be very helpful to the uninformed and at risk.

[Slo-go'en]

Any factual information regarding what may have contributed to the incident beyond the very basic information already provided will potentially be very helpful to the uninformed and at risk.

Not really. The uninformed and at risk hiker doesn't go looking for that kind of information. You can have signs, handouts, comprehensive accident reports, stories on the 6 O'clock news. All will be ignored.

Nobody believes something like this will happen to them until it does. Don't climb on the wet rocks next to a waterfall. So, what do they do? Don't try to climb a mountain in shorts, sneakers and a t-shirt. So, what do they do? The list is endless.

[Alligator]

We were informed. Everyone knew enough about what happened to know how to avoid a repeat and there was zero evidence leading to a rational suspicion that the RVs were involved.

Your concern about how my tax dollars are spent is duly noted. As someone from away it will be given appropriate attention.That was pretty funny, I knew he wouldn't get that.


.......
Huh? .How about if he said, "Your concern is noted bless your heart"?​

[AsoloBootsSuk]

^^^^^^^^ :d

[LoneStranger]

That was pretty funny, I knew he wouldn't get that.

How about if he said, "Your concern is noted bless your heart"?​

I wasn't trying to be that mean :)

Just pointing out that the guy from out of state was trying to tell me how my tax dollars need to be spent and I wasn't having it.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

I wasn't trying to be that mean :)

Just pointing out that the guy from out of state was trying to tell me how my tax dollars need to be spent and I wasn't having it.

I get it now, "away" means not from your state. That's witty. Thanks for the clarification.

[One Half]

Not really. The uninformed and at risk hiker doesn't go looking for that kind of information. You can have signs, handouts, comprehensive accident reports, stories on the 6 O'clock news. All will be ignored.

Nobody believes something like this will happen to them until it does. Don't climb on the wet rocks next to a waterfall. So, what do they do? Don't try to climb a mountain in shorts, sneakers and a t-shirt. So, what do they do? The list is endless.

exactly. and stated much better than I could have

[Maineiac64]

I get it now, "away" means not from your state. That's witty. Thanks for the clarification.
That phrase has been used by Mainers for a very long time.

[4eyedbuzzard]

If I'm not mistaken, Alaskans use the same phrase.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[gpburdelljr]

If I'm not mistaken, Alaskans use the same phrase.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
I think Alaskans use the term “outside”, rather than “away”.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I think Alaskans use the term “outside”, rather than “away”.Oops, yes, you are correct. Got 'em confused.