View Full Version : "The Ethics of Thru-Hiking During the COVID-19 Pandemic"
I found this article (https://www.outsideonline.com/2410658/thru-hiking-during-covid-19-pandemic) on the Outside website to be fairly objective. It quotes people who fall into three groups: those who are attempting to thru-hike this year, those who have started and are debating getting off, and those who have cancelled their thru-hikes for this year.
The author, who thru-hiked the AT last year, also gives his two cents:
"...thru-hiking becomes so intoxicating that you put yourself at real risk every day, despite how little sense it may make. The notion that you might be putting someone else in danger during such a personal, visceral journey may seem unimaginable, especially if you’re not watching daily press briefings. Staring from my window at a distant bald mountain, I wonder if I would have had the courage to quit if this was my year on the trail. My selfish heart says no, that I would trudge ahead. My more logical head says yes, that I would save myself and possibly someone else by heading home. The head versus the heart—it’s the same story every year for any thru-hike, just now with unfathomably higher stakes."
Alligator
03-21-2020, 11:50
Making the same sacrifices that other citizens are making seems a reasonable ethical decision. Businesses have been impacted, weddings and funerals curtailed or postponed. It has been a long time since Americans (and many other nationalities) have been collectively asked to restrict themselves to this level for the common good. We all will need to do our part in order to save lives. Because that's what it's all about, saving lives. You have to put yourself in someone else's boots, walk their trail, and sleep in their tent.
TwoSpirits
03-21-2020, 14:46
I sure wish there was a "Like" button for posts like this.
Well said.
How are you putting others at risk when individuals take risk each and every day. We must choose our own level of comfort. If I chose to hike the trail or go to the store during the Wuhan virus scare, that is my choice. Those that are hiking take the INDIVIDUAL risk of hiking. Just because someone else gets a warm and fuzzy feeling telling others how they personally should live is ridiculous. Okay, let's play this nonsense out. "Today I saw a bear on the trail near Hot Springs!" "Don't go there!" "Call the ATC and ask them to support stoping hikers from that area until a bear expert can give us the all-clear"....or, we as individuals can make the choices for ourselves knowing there was a bear spotted on the trail.
People hike the trail each and every day with some kind of common cold or flu virus not knowing initially they have it. Should we stop hikers from hiking because there MIGHT be a risk? Of course not. Same with the Wuhan virus. Let the individual hiker assume his or her own choice and if they feel comfortable with the risk.
The ATC closing their offices at Amicalola Falls State Park is silly. They are doing nothing except making themselves feel warm and fuzzy.
Christoph
03-22-2020, 18:25
Well that escalated quickly. Just kiddin'.
I have to somewhat agree with med2. I'm planning a section (4 days) probably the end of April. But I'm also not going in town, there'll be a car at each end, the only town stops are for gas along the way. So yea, I'm taking general precautions by not going into town and around people, but I'm also getting outside and doing something other than watching all the negativity on TV. Will definitely have much less contact with people than my day to day life, so why not? Is there a chance? Of course, but there's a chance I might not wake up tomorrow either so...
Okay, let's play this nonsense out. "Today I saw a bear on the trail near Hot Springs!" "Don't go there!" "Call the ATC and ask them to support stoping hikers from that area until a bear expert can give us the all-clear"....or, we as individuals can make the choices for ourselves knowing there was a bear spotted on the trail.
This analogy is completely false. bear sightings are not extremely contagious and they are not 10x more deadly than the flu. Your attitude puts more people in danger.
The accumulation of self absorption and ignorance in med2's post is mind boggling.
Well that escalated quickly. Just kiddin'.
I have to somewhat agree with med2. I'm planning a section (4 days) probably the end of April. But I'm also not going in town, there'll be a car at each end, the only town stops are for gas along the way. So yea, I'm taking general precautions by not going into town and around people, but I'm also getting outside and doing something other than watching all the negativity on TV. Will definitely have much less contact with people than my day to day life, so why not? Is there a chance? Of course, but there's a chance I might not wake up tomorrow either so...
Really the best alternative at this point.
The accumulation of self absorption and ignorance in med2's post is mind boggling.
Yep!!!!!!!
Christoph, I have no concerns about your plan. As long as you avoid other people and resupplies, etc you've got a very reasonable concept laid out.
danil411
03-22-2020, 19:17
Christoph, this makes sense--it's not the hiking/camping part. It's adding risk to environment of someone else...potentially in a location that has less resources to deal with sick people.
Agree that it is a personal choice as is how one displays patriotism.
The truth is that no one knows what the correct choice is. If you stay you could be infected and the same is true if you go someone could infect you and you may infect another. Where you'll seek care depends on your condition and circumstances you'll find yourself in. But the truth is the same if you don't hike. Hike if you wish / must and you'll find out what happens. Anyone that says that you must do this or that is just voicing their opinion. Unfortunately I'm stuck at home and I'll wish the best of luck to anyone that chooses to hike.
The truth is that no one knows what the correct choice is. If you stay you could be infected and the same is true if you go someone could infect you and you may infect another. Where you'll seek care depends on your condition and circumstances you'll find yourself in. But the truth is the same if you don't hike. Hike if you wish / must and you'll find out what happens. Anyone that says that you must do this or that is just voicing their opinion. Unfortunately I'm stuck at home and I'll wish the best of luck to anyone that chooses to hike.
You've been a member since 2011 and your first post huh. Well the thing is it's much more than a opinion, straight up fact. Stay home prepare not leave the house not infect don't get infected. Leave hike, stop a couple times a week into towns for resupply, hitchhike, motels and what if you get hurt and have to go to er not the place you wanna be right now and I think there a little busy right now.
It's not my first post, but perhaps that's not important to someone as yourself that seems to know everything. The thing about HYOH is that no one knows everything so your opinion is merely an opinion. Perhaps you're correct, perhaps not. I personally think hiking is good and if it's done well it's probably a better choice than staying at home. But as there's many warnings from certain people (from Governors, and others) that frankly don't know much I'll just let their advice slide. Yes, your opinion matters to you, but unless you know everything then it's just your opinion. They'll evaluate their hike and make their choice, hopefully for them they'll make a choice they won't regret. Either way, I hope that they will have a wonderful hike, if that's what they choose.
Remember, everything isn't as it appears. Not sure why it shows this as my first post, but I don't really care, much less care to correct the issue.
Apparently it doesn't show as my first post, just a minor error in interpreting my post.
Apparently it doesn't show as my first post, just a minor error in interpreting my post.
Yes my bad I was looking at your journal post.
Randy Watson
03-23-2020, 06:24
How are you putting others at risk when individuals take risk each and every day. We must choose our own level of comfort. If I chose to hike the trail or go to the store during the Wuhan virus scare, that is my choice. Those that are hiking take the INDIVIDUAL risk of hiking. Just because someone else gets a warm and fuzzy feeling telling others how they personally should live is ridiculous. Okay, let's play this nonsense out. "Today I saw a bear on the trail near Hot Springs!" "Don't go there!" "Call the ATC and ask them to support stoping hikers from that area until a bear expert can give us the all-clear"....or, we as individuals can make the choices for ourselves knowing there was a bear spotted on the trail.
People hike the trail each and every day with some kind of common cold or flu virus not knowing initially they have it. Should we stop hikers from hiking because there MIGHT be a risk? Of course not. Same with the Wuhan virus. Let the individual hiker assume his or her own choice and if they feel comfortable with the risk.
The ATC closing their offices at Amicalola Falls State Park is silly. They are doing nothing except making themselves feel warm and fuzzy.
You're either ignorant or self-absorbed, both are poor qualities...the risk isn't for the individual, the risk is for someone they may come in contact with who has compromised health issues. I'm in no way shape or form concerned about contracting Covid-19 or the risks involved to me or anyone in my household, my concern is if I move around freely I may infect someone due to my own selfish actions - and they could die. Very few people who carry the illness experience symptoms. Why would you put others at risk?
Majortrauma
03-23-2020, 10:28
"But what none of these organizations can do, of course, is legally or logistically close trails that run the length of the United States."
I've made this exact point numerous times when someone posts that "The ATC (or someone else) has closed the AT." It's simply not an accurate statement. And if it's not true, stop posting it. Unless it's a State Park, I seriously doubt that a state/ commonwealth can actually, legally close the AT or any other trail.
If an agency actually does have the legal authority to close the AT, prove it.
For the sake of this discussion, I'm not interested in what anyone thinks is the ethical thing to do. Opinions are irrelevant here, let's see some facts.
If opinions are irrelevant, then please stop sharing your ignorance of common sense.
Majortrauma
03-23-2020, 11:13
If opinions are irrelevant, then please stop sharing your ignorance of common sense.
Real classy CalebJ. Your own ignorance is now on full display. Read what I actually typed.
I asked for legal facts that proves someone has the legal authority to close the AT except for those portion of the trail in a Natl Park. Someones opinion or virtue signaling about what should or should not be done is not relevant and of no help to the hiking community and does NOT answer my question and many others who genuinely want to know what is within anyone's legal authority to close the AT.
"But what none of these organizations can do, of course, is legally or logistically close trails that run the length of the United States."
I've made this exact point numerous times when someone posts that "The ATC (or someone else) has closed the AT." It's simply not an accurate statement. And if it's not true, stop posting it. Unless it's a State Park, I seriously doubt that a state/ commonwealth can actually, legally close the AT or any other trail.
If an agency actually does have the legal authority to close the AT, prove it.
For the sake of this discussion, I'm not interested in what anyone thinks is the ethical thing to do. Opinions are irrelevant here, let's see some facts.
Time Zone
03-23-2020, 11:15
from earlier thread - slo-go'en, you wrote,
Since it's still winter where I live, I just leave my fleece gloves on when shopping. The virus doesn't survive long on fabric. It will survive a long time on plastic, so plastic gloves could be counter productive.
Where did you get the information that the virus does not survive long on fabric? You mentioned fleece gloves. Do you mean polyester fleece? Then you said it survives a long time on plastic.
If you meant polyester fleece, I'm pretty sure that stuff is a type of plastic.
How are you putting others at risk when individuals take risk each and every day. We must choose our own level of comfort. If I chose to hike the trail or go to the store during the Wuhan virus scare, that is my choice. Those that are hiking take the INDIVIDUAL risk of hiking. Just because someone else gets a warm and fuzzy feeling telling others how they personally should live is ridiculous. Okay, let's play this nonsense out. "Today I saw a bear on the trail near Hot Springs!" "Don't go there!" "Call the ATC and ask them to support stoping hikers from that area until a bear expert can give us the all-clear"....or, we as individuals can make the choices for ourselves knowing there was a bear spotted on the trail.
People hike the trail each and every day with some kind of common cold or flu virus not knowing initially they have it. Should we stop hikers from hiking because there MIGHT be a risk? Of course not. Same with the Wuhan virus. Let the individual hiker assume his or her own choice and if they feel comfortable with the risk.
The ATC closing their offices at Amicalola Falls State Park is silly. They are doing nothing except making themselves feel warm and fuzzy.
Congratulations for making the most irresponsible post I've read yet. And your profile says you're a retired Paramedic (as am I), you should know better.
You do realize that people carry and spread this virus without having symptoms don't you?
If you've never hiked the AT for any distance you might not realize that the hiking community depends on many people to help them throughout their journey. The store owners, hostel/motel operators, the shuttle drivers, the post office clerks and more. You come into contact with all these people and risk the spread of this virus. Maybe we should think about others.
Comparing this situation to seeing a bear and closing down the trail is ridiculous.
I'm all for hiking your own hike and people making their own choices but in this case your choice may effect others in an extreme way.
Time Zone
03-23-2020, 11:20
I asked for legal facts that proves someone has the legal authority to close the AT except for those portion of the trail in a Natl Park. Someones opinion or virtue signaling about what should or should not be done is not relevant and of no help to the hiking community and does NOT answer my question and many others who genuinely want to know what is within anyone's legal authority to close the AT.
While I get your "ought" vs. "is" distinction inherent in your question, you add the opinion that "oughts" are "not relevant and of no help to the hiking community." I, and I expect many others, disagree. We are in a pandemic, and the hiking community is most certainly helped by people recognizing that they "ought not spread disease" [even unknowingly, such as those who are asymptomatic, including those who are in the incubation period]
Alligator
03-23-2020, 11:36
"But what none of these organizations can do, of course, is legally or logistically close trails that run the length of the United States."
I've made this exact point numerous times when someone posts that "The ATC (or someone else) has closed the AT." It's simply not an accurate statement. And if it's not true, stop posting it. Unless it's a State Park, I seriously doubt that a state/ commonwealth can actually, legally close the AT or any other trail.
If an agency actually does have the legal authority to close the AT, prove it.
For the sake of this discussion, I'm not interested in what anyone thinks is the ethical thing to do. Opinions are irrelevant here, let's see some facts.You should note the thread title. If the ethics of it aren't going to be what you are discussing, leave the thread.
Traffic Jam
03-23-2020, 12:16
Many people are on edge right now, including me. (My shoulders are sore from being tense!). But we need to be respectful of each other when we disagree, please.
ldsailor
03-23-2020, 12:55
Gee, I had to look twice to be sure I was on Whiteblaze. This sounds just like the Facebook group PCT Class of 2020. That group devolved into a name calling, verbal fight to the point that most group members quit or exited to another group where they could exchange opinions and ideas without condemnation.
Slo-go'en
03-23-2020, 13:04
from earlier thread - slo-go'en, you wrote,
Where did you get the information that the virus does not survive long on fabric? You mentioned fleece gloves. Do you mean polyester fleece? Then you said it survives a long time on plastic.
If you meant polyester fleece, I'm pretty sure that stuff is a type of plastic.
On a medical website talking about how virus generally spread and how long they can survive on various surfaces. When I say plastic, I mean hard plastic surfaces. Plastic cups, plastic bottles and such. The same is true of metal and glass.
In fabric, the virus apparently gets trapped in the fibers.
It seems to me that even those who think it ethical to start or continue a thru hike would agree that it is imperative to self quarantine at the earliest sign of possible infection.
To my understanding some “first signs” are more common than others — low grade fever and dry cough, for example. That said, those first signs vary considerably and even include gastrointestinal issues.
With that in mind, is it reasonable to assume that hikers can/will elect to self quarantine — effectively — for a minimum of 14 days (and longer if they actually are infected) immediately upon getting a case of the runs, the sniffles or a bout of diarrhea?
I am thinking the answer to that question (no) helps answer that large question of whether or not it is ethical to start or continue a thru hike.
And that does not even consider spreading the virus when you don’t have symptoms.
Apollo117
03-23-2020, 14:25
Gee, I had to look twice to be sure I was on Whiteblaze. This sounds just like the Facebook group PCT Class of 2020. That group devolved into a name calling, verbal fight to the point that most group members quit or exited to another group where they could exchange opinions and ideas without condemnation.Oh geez. The PCT Class of 2020 FB group is a dumpster fire and echo chamber rolled together.
Captain Panda
03-23-2020, 15:03
While I have followed everyones take on the "ethics" of hiking at this time; it really isn't a question of ethics. It's a public health issue!! The ethical question will emerge when two critically ill patients are in the hospital, and the attending Physician has to decide which one gets the one remaining ventilator. Hiking the AT is a very social activity, and because of the logistics of a long distance hike, it is nearly impossible to avoid close contact with people on and off the trail. The best way to help avoid that ethical issue, is social distancing to lessen the numbers of infected people. I would implore all of the people in our AT family to stay at home with your loved ones, be a responsible citizen, and help to slow the spread of this very contagious pathogen.
lonehiker
03-23-2020, 15:19
I am self-absorbed and to be quite frank, proud of it...
Now, personally, the logistics of thru-hiking/long section hiking right now would at least make me reconsider if it would be worth the hassle. My own long hikes being later this summer/fall hopefully will make this a moot point for me. However, I am going to do short trips that don't involve resupply and I absolutely see no ethical problem with doing such. I will shop for supplies, as I do my weekly shopping, as normal. Then drive to the trailhead, hike and return. I will as usual get gas and pay-at-the-pump. If I encounter someone on the trail I may or may not stop and converse with the person. I usually leave that option up to them anyways as I'm not the most gregarious person. As an aside, one of the best things you can be doing right now is to get outside and breath fresh air and get some sunshine. Of course I live in Wyoming where we do have fresh air (albeit cold still) and sunshine. Now should I start to exhibit signs of an infectious disease (any disease) I would take prudent measures and leave the trail and seek medical advice. As I would in any scenario.
We here in Europe are a few weeks ahead in the pandemy. We have a "stay at home" policy, with exceptions like to shop necessary things, go to doctor/hospital, or go for sports or a walk alone or with the people you are living with.
I have been travelling through infectious countries 3 weeks ago and put myself in home-quarantaine for 2 weeks.
Nothing wrong so far.
Now I'm living in a spot a little outside of town where a famous local trail is passing by, right outside my door, straight through my property.
Normally, 10-20 people will pass by on a nice sunny day.
Now in Corona-time, 50-100 people walked the trail every day, numbers growing as weather warms up.
So now I have avoided an infection while abroad, but am exposed to crowds back home.
Would you call this "responsible hikers"?
Most likely, in every hike you will have situations like my own (but you being the hiker, not the resident) where you cannot avoid getting close to other people.
Traffic Jam
03-23-2020, 18:45
We here in Europe are a few weeks ahead in the pandemy. We have a "stay at home" policy, with exceptions like to shop necessary things, go to doctor/hospital, or go for sports or a walk alone or with the people you are living with.
I have been travelling through infectious countries 3 weeks ago and put myself in home-quarantaine for 2 weeks.
Nothing wrong so far.
Now I'm living in a spot a little outside of town where a famous local trail is passing by, right outside my door, straight through my property.
Normally, 10-20 people will pass by on a nice sunny day.
Now in Corona-time, 50-100 people walked the trail every day, numbers growing as weather warms up.
So now I have avoided an infection while abroad, but am exposed to crowds back home.
Would you call this "responsible hikers"?
Most likely, in every hike you will have situations like my own (but you being the hiker, not the resident) where you cannot avoid getting close to other people.
I hiked on Saturday and was shocked at the number of people out. I felt more vulnerable on the trail than I did at the grocery store.
Slo-go'en
03-23-2020, 19:26
I hiked on Saturday and was shocked at the number of people out. I felt more vulnerable on the trail than I did at the grocery store.
And of course you were one of them, as was I. I believe short, passing encounters in the outdoors is very low risk.
Slo-go'en
03-23-2020, 20:13
At this point anyone who has been on the trail for a couple of weeks is probably better off staying on the trail then trying to go home.
But anyone with long distance plans who hasn't yet gotten on the trail yet should stay home for now. The weather will be better in a month anyway.
Traffic Jam
03-23-2020, 21:40
And of course you were one of them, as was I. I believe short, passing encounters in the outdoors is very low risk.
I respectfully disagree. Did you see the photos of the vehicles parked all along the road at Mountain Crossings?
per the ATC...
“In a time when social distancing is necessary to minimize the spread and contraction of a dangerous virus, many have escaped to nature seeking isolation and unpopulated spaces. On the A.T., however, what they’ve found are trailhead parking lots exceeding their maximum capacities, shelters full of overnight hikers, day hikers using picnic tables and privies, and group trips continuing as planned. Popular spots along the Trail like Blood Mountain in Georgia, the McAfee Knob area in Virginia, and Annapolis Rocks in Maryland have seen day use reach record-breaking levels. Cars line the highways leading to popular day-hiking spots on the Trail. Hiking the A.T. has become, in other words, the opposite of social distancing. “
I believe it’s only a matter of time before the state and federal government close their respective parks.
Paleolith54
03-23-2020, 21:54
I hiked on Saturday and was shocked at the number of people out. I felt more vulnerable on the trail than I did at the grocery store.
If you pay attention to the simplest precautions regarding distance, what you handle, touching your face, and washing your hands I don't see how you can "feel" more vulnerable than in a relatively enclosed space where, much of the time, you can't maintain the recommended distance. Now, I wouldn't argue if you said you observed most of them blithely ignoring the rules; I see that myself, and I'm baffled by it. But I see no science-based reason why you can't stay safe on the trail just because there are lots of people out there.
Crossbar
03-24-2020, 00:36
... But I see no science-based reason why you can't stay safe on the trail just because there are lots of people out there.
Wouldn't the 'science-based reason' be just that? Because there are lots of people out there? Just askin..... ;)
Paleolith54
03-24-2020, 01:00
Wouldn't the 'science-based reason' be just that? Because there are lots of people out there? Just askin..... ;)
That's OK, reading AND comprehending at the same time takes practjce.
In every kind of hiking/walking outdoor activity, at some point you have to pass through some chokepoints where it is unavoidable to be very close to other people.
While passing upcoming people, one would breath straight into the others face (and maybe breathing hard).
Thats the perfect nightmare for transmitting Corona virus.
Plus, you never know who is already infected without symptoms, and who is a high-risk person, or who will have contact to a high-risk person the next hour.
Responsible hikers should wear a mask.
California is going to shut down parks and hiking trails, other states might follow soon.
Even with a mask you have the issue of it entering through your eyes.
Not the FFP3 mask that would filter away any particel that could carry the virus into your lung (read: Protecting you), but the simple mask that would limit the plume exhaled by you when sneezing, coughing or simple exhaling (so, protecting others).
Its impossible to do serious labor or strenous hiking while wearing a FFP3 mask.
TexasBob
03-24-2020, 09:20
At this point anyone who has been on the trail for a couple of weeks is probably better off staying on the trail then trying to go home. ...............
Hard to know what the best thing to do is and you might be right. Here are some thoughts to consider. Most folks on the trail probably started this month. A large percentage of thru hikers don't finish and the rate of dropouts is higher in the the first couple of months. By Virginia something like 30-50% quit and go home if I remember correctly. Assuming a hiker will need to take public transportation to get home and that the rate of coronavirus infection peaks in the next month or two, leaving now might be the safest option for those who don't finish their thru hike. Like I said it is hard to know what will happen with the virus and what the best thing to do is.
Traffic Jam
03-24-2020, 10:22
GSMNP trail closures
https://www.wbir.com/mobile/article/entertainment/places/great-smoky-mountains-national-park/smoky-mountain-campgrounds-picnic-areas-to-close-until-april-30-due-to-coronavirus/51-25111392-b7b5-4366-9518-c3a02eb1025f
Alligator
03-24-2020, 11:21
That's OK, reading AND comprehending at the same time takes practjce.I think he read and understood it just fine and that you perhaps are not understanding the possible nuances. What Traffic Jam is saying is that there is an increased density of people at the trailheads, trail facilities, and on trail. While trails aren't exactly linear in dimension, in can be difficult on many trails to actually enforce 6 feet of distance, such as on slopes and in dense underbrush. I would hazard a guess that people aren't strictly finding a place to keep that distance, in particular when passing. There were many reports of surges in the number of people at various outdoor localities.
Forgot to add, plus someone might cough on your car. Bring hand sanitizer!
Teacher & Snacktime
03-24-2020, 12:48
I am self-absorbed and to be quite frank, proud of it...
This is perhaps the funniest thing I've read today, sad, redundant, but funny. No ethical ambiguity here.
ldsailor
03-24-2020, 13:29
I have an idea. Forget the pleas of listening to your social conscience. There is an easier way to clear out the trails. Everyone pick a section, put on some makeup that makes you look really sick and go down the trail faking coughs and sneezes into the air. People will clear out so fast it'll make your head spin. :banana
Paleolith54
03-24-2020, 13:31
I think he read and understood it just fine and that you perhaps are not understanding the possible nuances. What Traffic Jam is saying is that there is an increased density of people at the trailheads, trail facilities, and on trail. While trails aren't exactly linear in dimension, in can be difficult on many trails to actually enforce 6 feet of distance, such as on slopes and in dense underbrush. I would hazard a guess that people aren't strictly finding a place to keep that distance, in particular when passing. There were many reports of surges in the number of people at various outdoor localities.
Forgot to add, plus someone might cough on your car. Bring hand sanitizer!
The thing you are responding to about reading comprehension wasn't in response to Traffic Jam, it was to another post. In regard to Traffic Jam: Maybe that is what he meant, but its not what he said and I can only comment on what someone says. In fact, I acknowledged right up front in my previous post that I'm actually baffled by the number of people I see out there who aren't doing the simple things like maintaining distance, but I still see no reason to feel more vulnerable on the trail (or even at the crowded trailheads that have emerged) than in a grocery store. Look at my post; that was my point.
BTW, I'd also agree that we are now to a point where so many people are crowding National Park trailhead parking lots and straining the capacity of entrance towns that it makes sense to just shut down. I hate that, but I agree that's where we are.
colorado_rob
03-24-2020, 13:49
Gee, I had to look twice to be sure I was on Whiteblaze. This sounds just like the Facebook group PCT Class of 2020. That group devolved into a name calling, verbal fight to the point that most group members quit or exited to another group where they could exchange opinions and ideas without condemnation. Yikes! I figured as much though.... the FIRST thing I did when I returned from my PCT "attempt" last week after only 7 days on the trail :-( is to instantly quit the PCT 2020 facebook group (along with the PCT-seniors FB group). I didn't even take a peek at either, just left them. The good news for me personally is that I did make an actual friend from the 2020 FB group, we hiked that week together, and we're keeping in touch anxious to hike together when this crisis subsides.
I personally think these discussions are quite a bit more civil than those on that FB group.
Traffic Jam
03-24-2020, 17:25
The thing you are responding to about reading comprehension wasn't in response to Traffic Jam, it was to another post. In regard to Traffic Jam: Maybe that is what he meant, but its not what he said and I can only comment on what someone says. In fact, I acknowledged right up front in my previous post that I'm actually baffled by the number of people I see out there who aren't doing the simple things like maintaining distance, but I still see no reason to feel more vulnerable on the trail (or even at the crowded trailheads that have emerged) than in a grocery store. Look at my post; that was my point.
BTW, I'd also agree that we are now to a point where so many people are crowding National Park trailhead parking lots and straining the capacity of entrance towns that it makes sense to just shut down. I hate that, but I agree that's where we are.
Apologies, I didn’t think that I needed to justify or explain my feelings but I’m happy to do so.
When I went to the grocery store, it wasn’t crowded and I had no trouble staying away from people and people made an effort to stay away from me.
When I hiked, at least 15 people came close to me because there was very little room to pass due to the steep upslope and downslope and every person who passed felt the need to speak to me. In one incident, two off-leash dogs ran up and the owners got close so they could get their dogs sorted. I also had to use the bathroom (twice) since I was far from home so touched the same door and flush handles as multiple people. Of course I washed my hands.
Taking all these things into consideration, my overall impression and feeling is that I was more vulnerable when I want hiking than when I was shopping when I expected it to be the opposite. I think many people expected it to be okay which is why our trails were so crowded this past weekend.
lonehiker
03-24-2020, 17:57
Apologies, I didn’t think that I needed to justify or explain my feelings but I’m happy to do so.
When I went to the grocery store, it wasn’t crowded and I had no trouble staying away from people and people made an effort to stay away from me.
When I hiked, at least 15 people came close to me because there was very little room to pass due to the steep upslope and downslope and every person who passed felt the need to speak to me. In one incident, two off-leash dogs ran up and the owners got close so they could get their dogs sorted. I also had to use the bathroom (twice) since I was far from home so touched the same door and flush handles as multiple people. Of course I washed my hands.
Taking all these things into consideration, my overall impression and feeling is that I was more vulnerable when I want hiking than when I was shopping when I expected it to be the opposite. I think many people expected it to be okay which is why our trails were so crowded this past weekend.
I can't be certain but I suspect you will survive your traumatic trail experience.
Traffic Jam
03-24-2020, 18:14
I can't be certain but I suspect you will survive your traumatic trail experience.
Thank you for the pep talk, lonehiker. No need for sarcasm. :)
Let me point out, I never used the words “trauma” or “traumatic” nor did I use words that implied such a strong feeling. The strongest word I used was “vulnerable”. (I work in a hospital for goodness sake.). If you think I was “traumatized” you are mistaken. I simply compared hiking vs shopping in the context of how safe I felt about being exposed to Covid-19.
(Neither did I pass judgment on the couple who had their dogs off leash.)
Paleolith54
03-24-2020, 18:27
Apologies, I didn’t think that I needed to justify or explain my feelings but I’m happy to do so.
When I went to the grocery store, it wasn’t crowded and I had no trouble staying away from people and people made an effort to stay away from me.
When I hiked, at least 15 people came close to me because there was very little room to pass due to the steep upslope and downslope and every person who passed felt the need to speak to me. In one incident, two off-leash dogs ran up and the owners got close so they could get their dogs sorted. I also had to use the bathroom (twice) since I was far from home so touched the same door and flush handles as multiple people. Of course I washed my hands.
Taking all these things into consideration, my overall impression and feeling is that I was more vulnerable when I want hiking than when I was shopping when I expected it to be the opposite. I think many people expected it to be okay which is why our trails were so crowded this past weekend.
Understood, and as you probably realize I didn't expect you to explain anything (I'd not think I have a right to do so!) I was just having a hard time understanding that one part of what you said. And yeah, the degree to which folks act as if being outdoors makes things OK does baffle me.
Anyway, I think that horse is sufficiently dead at this point.
Emerson Bigills
03-24-2020, 19:08
I do not see that day hiking on the trail presents a more "viral" environment than most people are going to experience at home, weekly grocery run and where they go after they get cabin fever. The ATC should have told people to practice good social distancing and hike through all shelter areas without stopping. From what I could see today, the TN counties from GSMNP to the VA border have a total of 6 reported COVID instances. That is probably close to 300 miles of trail. The northern most counties in that area, had none from what I could see. People are not going to stay in their basements for 3 months. Social distancing and elevated sanitary practices will be our primary defense until a vaccine arrives in a year or longer. People are going to have to learn to adjust their lives for their own protection. Those that are at most risk are going to need to take the most precautions.
Five Tango
03-24-2020, 20:52
Can't speak for anyone else,but as a member of the higher risk group,I intend to stand down for more than the requisite 15 days recommended by Dr. Fauci and after that not be in circulation until on or around April 6.At that point in time it's my intention to limit social interaction to only the essentials like grocery shopping,post office,gas station,haircuts,etc.
Not everyone has the luxury of social avoidance that we old retired types do and we can't maintain an economy with everyone under house arrest either.At some point the show must go on and we need to be prepared for the consequences and they may likely be severe.
So,to stay on topic,it's too soon for people to be exposing themselves to others on the trail right now because it's just not appropriate behavior under the circumstances.Just my two cents.
Puddlefish
03-25-2020, 07:04
I can't be certain but I suspect you will survive your traumatic trail experience.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/covid-19/25-03-2020/the-side-eye-viruses-vs-everyone/
Three US Navy sailors on a ship at sea have tested positive. Just goes to show you no where is immune.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/covid-19/25-03-2020/the-side-eye-viruses-vs-everyone/
In addition to this these covid-19 protein viruses have a little hook on them making them easily attachable to the lungs. There they find a host and multiply ,soon the bottom of your lungs start filling up with fluid and you can't breathe, they put you on a ventilator but if your lungs keep filling up with fluid they can't get air to you. This is how most folks are dying. That's why this is such a respiratory illness.
gpburdelljr
03-25-2020, 09:55
Can't speak for anyone else,but as a member of the higher risk group,I intend to stand down for more than the requisite 15 days recommended by Dr. Fauci and after that not be in circulation until on or around April 6.At that point in time it's my intention to limit social interaction to only the essentials like grocery shopping,post office,gas station,haircuts,etc.
As a member of a higher risk group, I don’t consider haircuts essential.
Slo-go'en
03-25-2020, 10:29
As a member of a higher risk group, I don’t consider haircuts essential.
I managed to get my spring shearing before the lock down. I'm good for another 6 months now :)
Five Tango
03-25-2020, 11:01
As a member of a higher risk group, I don’t consider haircuts essential.
Once people go back in circulation it's a risk I will take as there's usually less than four people in the shop when I get my haircut.Our local grocery store has instituted a special time each week for us old people to shop so I will be taking advantage of that.
One thing the Mrs. and I do now is wash our clothes and take a shower when we return from any sort of public exposure.I have also quit wearing a wristwatch as they are said to be a potential source for the virus.
And I the two hiking trips I had planned are on hold indefinitely now.
I managed to get my spring shearing before the lock down. I'm good for another 6 months now
i havent had a haircut in 16 years...........
gpburdelljr
03-25-2020, 11:58
Once people go back in circulation it's a risk I will take as there's usually less than four people in the shop when I get my haircut.Our local grocery store has instituted a special time each week for us old people to shop so I will be taking advantage of that.
It doesn’t matter how few people are at the barbershop/salon, what is more important is how many people the barber/stylist has been in close contact with before you while cutting their hair.
I went to a grocery store “senior hour” yesterday, and won’t do that again. There were more people shopping than during normal hours.
i havent had a haircut in 16 years...........
+1 been buzzing my own down to a no. 1 for years, easy peezy. Saves money to.
+1 been buzzing my own down to a no. 1 for years, easy peezy. Saves money to.
using the Flowbee?
my typical thing for the last 25 years (ive had 3 hair cuts in 25 years).........grow hair out long, get it cut down to the shortest length on head, and saved for Locks of Love.......
then grow back out........and do it again......
currently on year number 16 but i dont see a cut happening anytime soon...
my job---which involves seeing congress peoples, governors, mayors, police chief and basically people from all walks of life-----is cool with it......i keep it tucked up under my hat and most people dont know its long....
i do have a picture of me and the former governor of tennessee when he first saw it long.............ive known him for years and he had no idea....
Five Tango
03-25-2020, 13:12
It doesn’t matter how few people are at the barbershop/salon, what is more important is how many people the barber/stylist has been in close contact with before you while cutting their hair.
I went to a grocery store “senior hour” yesterday, and won’t do that again. There were more people shopping than during normal hours.
I know that-it's a risk I will take based on reported levels of contamination in our rural little backwoods county.
As a member of a higher risk group, I don’t consider haircuts essential.
Apparently some of the states don't either as those were among the places closed. Although of all the services in those groups it seems the most needed, as you can't control how fast it grows and many can't do it themselves.
Five Tango
03-25-2020, 17:29
Apparently some of the states don't either as those were among the places closed. Although of all the services in those groups it seems the most needed, as you can't control how fast it grows and many can't do it themselves.
In Georgia it depends on where you live.I am under the impression that for right now everybody comes out of hiding on April 6th for the most part.Maybe by then sick people will stay home and people in higher risk groups will either self quarantine or limit their public circulation for some time longer.
BlackCloud
03-25-2020, 19:48
The VP announced at today's presser that tomorrow the CDC will issue guidance for the responsible use of state and national parks. The VP stated it is something the task force wants to encourage.
The VP announced at today's presser that tomorrow the CDC will issue guidance for the responsible use of state and national parks. The VP stated it is something the task force wants to encourage.
GSMNP is closed now.
Slo-go'en
03-25-2020, 20:34
Concord Trailways just canceled bus service in NH. Will Greyhound be far behind?
Five Tango
03-26-2020, 16:32
In Georgia it depends on where you live.I am under the impression that for right now everybody comes out of hiding on April 6th for the most part.Maybe by then sick people will stay home and people in higher risk groups will either self quarantine or limit their public circulation for some time longer.
Now schools in Georgia are closed until April 24th and the Governor is contemplating keeping them closed until the next scheduled term which would be in August usually.
Crossbar
03-26-2020, 22:08
Yeah, same in TN; closed until April 24th. Truthfully I don't see them going back. This half-a$$ safer-at-home approach we're doing here in the US is not going to work. Unless we start doing more enforceable Shelter-at-Home orders we are going to be in a world of hurt. NY already is.
Traveler
03-27-2020, 07:40
A lot of states are using shelter in place and social distancing/isolation techniques (some voluntary some mandated), some States still believe this to be a hoax of some sort and are doing nothing on a Statewide level. We missed the opportunity to ramp up testing, so today we have no real knowledge of where the virus is going in the population, absent a vaccine there is high value in employing social distancing and shelter in place techniques because they work in keeping infection rates lower than if nothing were done.
Current data shows one person left on their own to frolic about within the population unaware they carry the virus will infect 2.5 people over a 5-day period, which over a 30-day period will lead to 406 people infected. Social distancing, essentially going about ones business while maintaining a distance of 6-feet or more and other disinfecting techniques the same infected person over a 5-day period will infect 1.25 people, leading to 15-people infected over a 30-day period. Sheltering in place lowers infection spread the most as an infected carrier over a 5-day period will infect .625 people, leading to 2.5 people infected over a 30-day period. So these measures can and do work as data from 1918-19 Spanish Flu pandemic documents.
So even in States not taking this all that seriously, even half measures of social distancing is better than nothing until a vaccine is developed.
Five Tango
03-27-2020, 08:53
I just heard on some news channel that a vaccine might be developed as early as the end of summer.This would be good as yesterday one of the doctors indicated there would likely be a resurgence of the virus this fall as normal flu season gets cranked up again.Also heard a doctor say yesterday that the virus seems to be relatively slow to mutate which gives vaccines a greater chance at countering it.
At some point normal circulation of the population is going to happen.Maybe sick people and those in high risk groups like retired people will realize their best bet is to stay at home.Personally,I hope that this ridiculous custom we have of handshaking will fall by the wayside once and for all and help prevent the transmission of other less threatening viruses as a result.
Fingers crossed this malaria drug works, not the fish aquarium cleaning chemicals but the malaria drug. Come on people you're not gonna have a malaria drug sitting around your house.
And yes people are gross on the norm no need for handshake a simple little bow . The Asian do this because it offers the most vulnerable anatomy of the human body the neck. Therefore the ultimate respect.
Teacher & Snacktime
03-27-2020, 11:04
Fingers crossed this malaria drug works, not the fish aquarium cleaning chemicals but the malaria drug. Come on people you're not gonna have a malaria drug sitting around your house.
Actually, some of us do.
Every cure has it's disease though. I agree with you and wholly and completely hope that Plaquenil, or Hydroxychoroquine, proves an effective treatment for this virus. But there is of course a downside. Those of us who require this medication to live are seeing shortages already, and that is concerning. If you recall how difficult it was to get the doxycycline to treat lyme a few years ago, imagine what will be the effect with the quantities required with this until increased mfg of the drug catches up with demand.
No, I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer here, but there are no easy answers or solutions. It's going to be a rough road in all directions.
One Half
03-27-2020, 12:00
Actually, some of us do.
Every cure has it's disease though. I agree with you and wholly and completely hope that Plaquenil, or Hydroxychoroquine, proves an effective treatment for this virus. But there is of course a downside. Those of us who require this medication to live are seeing shortages already, and that is concerning. If you recall how difficult it was to get the doxycycline to treat lyme a few years ago, imagine what will be the effect with the quantities required with this until increased mfg of the drug catches up with demand.
No, I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer here, but there are no easy answers or solutions. It's going to be a rough road in all directions.
I was just reading today that hydroxychloroquine is prescribed for people with autoimmune issues. I have a friend with Lupus, RA, 2nd bout of breast cancer. She is not on chloroquine but is on the similar one that begins with a P.
Teacher & Snacktime
03-27-2020, 12:08
I was just reading today that hydroxychloroquine is prescribed for people with autoimmune issues. I have a friend with Lupus, RA, 2nd bout of breast cancer. She is not on chloroquine but is on the similar one that begins with a P.
Plaquenil....standard RX for Lupus (me) and RA....generic name is hydroxychloroquine
One Half
03-27-2020, 12:09
Plaquenil....standard RX for Lupus (me) and RA....generic name is hydroxychloroquine
Thanks. I actually saw it in another post after I posted.
illabelle
03-27-2020, 13:54
Plaquenil....standard RX for Lupus (me) and RA....generic name is hydroxychloroquine
I have a few [expired] Plaquenil pills left from a prescription several years ago for cutaneous lupus. I'm going to hold onto them just in case...
I have a few [expired] Plaquenil pills left from a prescription several years ago for cutaneous lupus. I'm going to hold onto them just in case...
Make sure expired meds are safe. Please.
Today’s announcement from our Governor
Travel Guidance: Beginning March 27, all travelers arriving to Massachusetts are instructed to self-quarantine for 14 days. This guidance will be displayed as posters at service plazas along 1-90 eastbound, distributed as flyers at major transportation hubs and on posted on highway message boards. Visitors are instructed not to travel to Massachusetts if they are displaying symptoms. Health care workers, public health workers, public safety workers, transportation workers and designated essential workers are exempt from this requirement.
Today’s announcement from our Governor
Travel Guidance: Beginning March 27, all travelers arriving to Massachusetts are instructed to self-quarantine for 14 days. This guidance will be displayed as posters at service plazas along 1-90 eastbound, distributed as flyers at major transportation hubs and on posted on highway message boards. Visitors are instructed not to travel to Massachusetts if they are displaying symptoms. Health care workers, public health workers, public safety workers, transportation workers and designated essential workers are exempt from this requirement.
This is exactly what needs to happen everywhere as someone noted in a earlier post. The snow birds are heading back north again for the season and who knows whose infected who's not. And if a state is doing good with very few cases we don't need visitors coming in right now, because just a couple of sick people can be a start a very bad thing. For alot of folks.
Slo-go'en
03-27-2020, 15:55
I don't see how the "self quarantine" could possibly be enforced. It relies on people doing the right thing. While most probably will, there are those who won't.
My little town is worried about all the "summer people" who are itching to open up their camps and cabins for the season and move in for the duration. Usually they only show up for the week of July 4th. They maybe around quite a bit longer this summer.
Just for the record I've been following a doctor from California on YouTube since this has started. It's medcram.com . He's totally non political and totally doctor. He's very factual in fact to much so I can't keep up ,lol. We all have are way of keeping up by now just another option. And btw shug has a new video out so funny, so classy, love that guy. (Hey not that way) !
I don't see how the "self quarantine" could possibly be enforced. It relies on people doing the right thing. While most probably will, there are those who won't.
My little town is worried about all the "summer people" who are itching to open up their camps and cabins for the season and move in for the duration. Usually they only show up for the week of July 4th. They maybe around quite a bit longer this summer.
Yep, that's the thing NH may " peak" and then start declining in cases and then these folks start coming in and start it back up again.....( or some are saying it may go away during summer and come back in the fall ) ? 94,680 cases 1,438 dead USA! Ugh, what a mess!! I had to change the no. of dead just while typing this.
For those that are wondering you can catch the "regular flu" at the same time catch the Corona flu, very rare but possible. (Good luck with that).And being a respiratory infection watch out smokers cigarettes, cigars, vape, cannabis.
Crushed Grapes
03-27-2020, 20:29
This is exactly what needs to happen everywhere as someone noted in a earlier post. The snow birds are heading back north again for the season and who knows whose infected who's not. And if a state is doing good with very few cases we don't need visitors coming in right now, because just a couple of sick people can be a start a very bad thing. For alot of folks.
Interesting. My mother-in-law is in Brandenton, FL and said people from NY are flocking down to the area, to get out of NY
Crossbar
03-27-2020, 20:56
Just for the record I've been following a doctor from California on YouTube since this has started. It's medcram.com . He's totally non political and totally doctor. He's very factual in fact to much so I can't keep up ,lol. We all have are way of keeping up by now just another option. And btw shug has a new video out so funny, so classy, love that guy. (Hey not that way) !
Thanks for the tip. Watched the last 6 or so 'updates'. Nice to get some straight, scientific, factual information...
Chain Saw
03-27-2020, 22:45
Hike your own hike. Or don’t.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Furlough
03-28-2020, 10:11
As a member of a higher risk group, I don’t consider haircuts essential.
I agree. I work in the Pentagon (civilian). I am enjoying going into work with my hair length trending back to lengths not grown since the 70s.
Interesting. My mother-in-law is in Brandenton, FL and said people from NY are flocking down to the area, to get out of NY
funny i thought they all were here in the berkshires. i can say for sure many are not staying in for the 14 days
Today’s announcement from our Governor
Travel Guidance: Beginning March 27, all travelers arriving to Massachusetts are instructed to self-quarantine for 14 days. This guidance will be displayed as posters at service plazas along 1-90 eastbound, distributed as flyers at major transportation hubs and on posted on highway message boards. Visitors are instructed not to travel to Massachusetts if they are displaying symptoms. Health care workers, public health workers, public safety workers, transportation workers and designated essential workers are exempt from this requirement.
funny i thought they all were here in the berkshires. i can say for sure many are not staying in for the 14 days
The only place that they hopefully won't enforce that is for essential shoppers - there are many smaller towns in the eastern NY counties where a supermarket/pharmacy in MA (or further south CT, and some into VT on the north as well) is closer to access than ones in NY are.
NYers started heading out of town earlier this month. Many of them went to Miami, the area with the highest rates of infection now.
Slo-go'en
03-28-2020, 15:30
Took a stroll over to the Appalachia parking lot. Some 15 cars in the lot, nearly all from out of state. Maine, Vermont, Connecticut, North Carolina, and of course most were from Mass. At least that's a lot less then normal for a Saturday, usually they are spilling out onto the highway.
46277
illabelle
03-29-2020, 06:35
Make sure expired meds are safe. Please.
I will. Thanks for the reminder.
Alligator
03-29-2020, 09:07
Thruhiking and Covid-19 is the thread topic.
Not much of a prophet needed to see that there will be no big hiking this year.
In countries were the athorities did't enforce a "stay at home" policy in time with all might, the death count is shooting through the roof.
Noboy would love you to be part of the exponential growth of infections.
If in doubt please take a close look at Italy or Spain.
Not much of a prophet needed to see that there will be no big hiking this year.
In countries were the athorities did't enforce a "stay at home" policy in time with all might, the death count is shooting through the roof.
Noboy would love you to be part of the exponential growth of infections.
If in doubt please take a close look at Italy or Spain.
Friday's death toll for Italy was over 900 and Spain over 800 . Almost 1,000 deaths in 1 day. Yeah we better get serious about this.
The death toll is only one number.
Behind this, there typically are 10-100x more people in (intensive) care, suffering and slowly suffocating to death.
A most recent report from France/Elsass: "This is war-time medicine. We are evaluating who will get one of the scarce ventilator aids. At the beginning, we stopped this for patients over 80. Now we are at 72.
We cant help but simply let them die".
This is all from countries that have a very good health system, not 3rd world.
Plase take this corona very serious.
I know it's very frustrating. All the big rich countries with some of the smartest people in the world within all know something like is was inevitable why wouldn't we already have 100,000 ventilators somewhere in stockpile?
A Dr. on ABC, this morning spoke of things in a different light. It's not necessarily how many ventilators you have, you could have a million, it's how many trained people (IE respiratory therapists) you have to operate them. This pandemic definitely has the ability to overrun any healthcare system.
Lone Wolf
03-29-2020, 18:33
still lots of hikers comin' through Damascus daily
still lots of hikers comin' through Damascus daily
Very surprising to hear. The die hards. Thanks wolf. As a die hard yourself are you surprised at the hikers still out?
Lone Wolf
03-29-2020, 19:51
Very surprising to hear. The die hards. Thanks wolf. As a die hard yourself are you surprised at the hikers still out?
no. not at all
no. not at all
Forgive my ignorance not sure but what are they gonna do in places like are the smokies closed.? Last I heard you can still tent around shelters in the smokies? Virginia lots of hostel ,shuttle shut down, I imagine difficult to hitchhike. Not sure about snp shelter closed? No stealth camping in snp correct? Then Hf foot bridge out ok , md has closed all shelters, md has no stealth camping. Pa from I see has just about all shelter and campsites closed, on,and on up the trail etc,etc. And you're not at all surprised at the hikers still out? I guess to some the bigger challenge the bigger the prize?
Lone Wolf
03-29-2020, 20:30
nope. not surprised. i live in a hiker town. folks are walkin' on through
Forgive my ignorance not sure but what are they gonna do in places like are the smokies closed.? Last I heard you can still tent around shelters in the smokies? Virginia lots of hostel ,shuttle shut down, I imagine difficult to hitchhike. Not sure about snp shelter closed? No stealth camping in snp correct? Then Hf foot bridge out ok , md has closed all shelters, md has no stealth camping. Pa from I see has just about all shelter and campsites closed, on,and on up the trail etc,etc. And you're not at all surprised at the hikers still out? I guess to some the bigger challenge the bigger the prize?
Well if they are in Damascus they are well past GSMNP. They probably can still find places to camp, but resupplying will definitely be tougher. LEO probably have much higher priorities now than making sure no one is walking through the woods. I am not condoning and saying they should be doing it, but have no problem believing some are.
Lone Wolf
03-29-2020, 21:02
no problem with resupply in this area.
Alligator
03-29-2020, 21:17
This is the second warning, this thread is about thruhiking and Covid-19. Stay on topic.
4eyedbuzzard
03-30-2020, 03:30
"But what none of these organizations can do, of course, is legally or logistically close trails that run the length of the United States."
I've made this exact point numerous times when someone posts that "The ATC (or someone else) has closed the AT." It's simply not an accurate statement. And if it's not true, stop posting it. Unless it's a State Park, I seriously doubt that a state/ commonwealth can actually, legally close the AT or any other trail.
If an agency actually does have the legal authority to close the AT, prove it.
For the sake of this discussion, I'm not interested in what anyone thinks is the ethical thing to do. Opinions are irrelevant here, let's see some facts.https://www.njherald.com/news/20200329/appalachian-trail-boardwalk-closed-as-covid-19-cases-climb
VERNON — Authorities have closed a portion of the Appalachian Trail ... because the Appalachian Trail is under the authority of the Appalachian Trail Conservancy, Burrell said he did not have the authority as mayor, acting on his own, to close the Appalachian Trail or prevent people from accessing any portion of it.That has since changed following the New Jersey State Park Service’s announcement late Friday, in conjunction with the conservancy, that the Appalachian Trail boardwalk has been closed and will remain closed until further notice. According to the Park Service, ”(the) trail’s boardwalk and bridge are too narrow for visitors to maintain the required six feet of social distancing.”...
So, NJ State Parks, in coordination with ATC, closed this section. On a larger scale, I believe NPS has legal authority to close (power to regulate) any or all parts of the AT under 54 USC.
4eyedbuzzard
03-30-2020, 03:38
While the AT remains technically open in most places, the growing closures of trailheads, shelters, overnight camping bans, etc., have pretty much made a long hike a logistical no-go situation at least for the next month or so, and I would expect the list to grow especially as spring progresses. The list of closures is extensive http://www.appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/trail-updates There just seems to be too much uncertainty to be able to plan a long hike anytime this year.
Here in Europe we tend to enforce wearing masks when being in public.
Sounds like a very reasonable solution.
4eyedbuzzard
03-30-2020, 03:57
Here in Europe we tend to enforce wearing masks when being in public.
Sounds like a very reasonable solution.Except that at this point in time, we don't have enough masks for the medical professionals, nevermind the general public.
Scientists found out that even a primitive DIY mask or a simple bandana does quite a lot to reduce the infections.
Infections of Corona by contact (like, grabbing the same item by hand) is very unlikely anyway.
So while it makes sense to wash/sanitize hands for many other reasons, it seems not to be the most critical measure against Corona.
Wearing a mask (of any kind) does help against Corona!
Traveler
03-30-2020, 08:04
What is the source of information that primitive DIY masks does "quite a lot" to reduce exposure of infection, or washing hands is not a "critical measure" against the virus? Nothing I have seen or heard suggests those things. I am not sure who would be saying this, however these comments are contrary to what's being said by medical professionals here in the US. Though what we do in our own domiciles is our own business, what we do in public in the hiking trail environment is our collective business and responsibility.
The CDC in the US (as of yesterday) disagrees with advising healthy people to use masks:
The Centers for Disease Control generally disagrees. It recommends face masks (https://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/masks.htm) for people who are coughing and sneezing to prevent them from spreading COVID-19 to those around them. The CDC says people in close contact with an infected person may also benefit from wearing masks. It has, however, argued that masks are not designed to protect healthy people from getting the virus and there are reasons the general public shouldn’t wear them:
A mask can actually promote the spread of germs.
The masks become damp while being worn and should be thrown out after each use.
People wearing them may touch their face more (https://healthinfo.universityhealthsystem.com/Search/6,754372) as they adjust their masks, which can promote infection
The N95 respirator mask is about the only type that will protect the wearer against infection, which are not readily available to the public. Though masks of many types, including primitive can be helpful to reduce the spread of disease for those who are infected and/or symptomatic, they do not work well in reverse to protect those who are not infected. Viruses are extremely small (10 to 100 times smaller than bacteria) and can very easily find their way through many layers of filters when inhaling through fabric of most any type. To put it into terms most can relate to, it would be like keeping pollen dust from coming through a screen in an open window. Common dust masks or homemade bandana masks are even less beneficial to prevent the virus from spreading to other people and surfaces, but do help slow the airborne release of particles will settle on people or surfaces when coughing.
On the trail, wearing a mask of any type is difficult if not highly impractical, breathing through a mask or cloth is difficult for one, sweat, fogging of glasses, and snags from low tree branches and brush make these difficult to keep properly positioned, once out of place one has to use their hands to adjust them, which typically will cause fingers (even gloved) from touching the face. This alone defeats the purpose of the mask.
Then there is the decision of when to use it and for how long as you approach or move away from others on the trail. You may find yourself behind someone who is infected but not yet sick who is breathing hard as they work their way up the trail, you are following in the air they have just expelled, which microscopic droplets of air (think cold foggy days when you can actually see some of that breath) are released with virus in them and can linger in suspension for long periods of time. When do you put the mask on or take it off? What if there is a breeze carrying expelled breath from others, what footage should be used to trigger mask use? What do you do with a regular dusk mask or a bandana once you have been through this exhaled air by one or several people and you remove it from your face, touching the surfaces exposed to that air? Without proper disinfecting processes, that dust mask or bandana are now potentially covered with the virus you are trying to protect yourself against. Handling the mask to put it on for the next hiker contact sharply increases the likelihood of infection or worse, passing it to others without knowing you are inflicting illness on others.
On washing of hands, the CDC advises:
Wash your hands frequentlyRegularly and thoroughly clean your hands with an alcohol-based hand rub or wash them with soap and water.
Why? Washing your hands with soap and water or using alcohol-based hand rub kills viruses that may be on your hands.
Perhaps Europe has a different point of view and medical data that suggest hand washing is not a critical element in controlling the spread of disease, so I will be interested to see who is saying that, what qualifications they possess to say it, and in what context it is being said in.
Overall, what makes the most sense is the practice of social isolation and sheltering in place to reduce contact with those carrying virus. For now, these are probably the best two methods people can use to best avoid illness. This puts hiking into the grey area of disease management, while the social distance element can be employed a lot, it is not always assured in narrow tread way foot bridges and other places where there is no place to step out of the way 6-foot or more.
I don't mean to sound harsh in this, but we as a community need to be careful in promoting things that are clearly against published best practice and common sense. It's not about you personally, it's about the information and doing what we can to vet new information and adapt it for the activity that unites us.
What is the source of information that primitive DIY masks does "quite a lot" to reduce exposure of infection, or washing hands is not a "critical measure" against the virus? Nothing I have seen or heard suggests those things. I am not sure who would be saying this, however these comments are contrary to what's being said by medical professionals here in the US. Though what we do in our own domiciles is our own business, what we do in public in the hiking trail environment is our collective business and responsibility.
The CDC in the US (as of yesterday) disagrees with advising healthy people to use masks:
The Centers for Disease Control generally disagrees. It recommends face masks (https://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/masks.htm) for people who are coughing and sneezing to prevent them from spreading COVID-19 to those around them. The CDC says people in close contact with an infected person may also benefit from wearing masks. It has, however, argued that masks are not designed to protect healthy people from getting the virus and there are reasons the general public shouldn’t wear them:
A mask can actually promote the spread of germs.
The masks become damp while being worn and should be thrown out after each use.
People wearing them may touch their face more (https://healthinfo.universityhealthsystem.com/Search/6,754372) as they adjust their masks, which can promote infection
The N95 respirator mask is about the only type that will protect the wearer against infection, which are not readily available to the public. Though masks of many types, including primitive can be helpful to reduce the spread of disease for those who are infected and/or symptomatic, they do not work well in reverse to protect those who are not infected. Viruses are extremely small (10 to 100 times smaller than bacteria) and can very easily find their way through many layers of filters when inhaling through fabric of most any type. To put it into terms most can relate to, it would be like keeping pollen dust from coming through a screen in an open window. Common dust masks or homemade bandana masks are even less beneficial to prevent the virus from spreading to other people and surfaces, but do help slow the airborne release of particles will settle on people or surfaces when coughing.
On the trail, wearing a mask of any type is difficult if not highly impractical, breathing through a mask or cloth is difficult for one, sweat, fogging of glasses, and snags from low tree branches and brush make these difficult to keep properly positioned, once out of place one has to use their hands to adjust them, which typically will cause fingers (even gloved) from touching the face. This alone defeats the purpose of the mask.
Then there is the decision of when to use it and for how long as you approach or move away from others on the trail. You may find yourself behind someone who is infected but not yet sick who is breathing hard as they work their way up the trail, you are following in the air they have just expelled, which microscopic droplets of air (think cold foggy days when you can actually see some of that breath) are released with virus in them and can linger in suspension for long periods of time. When do you put the mask on or take it off? What if there is a breeze carrying expelled breath from others, what footage should be used to trigger mask use? What do you do with a regular dusk mask or a bandana once you have been through this exhaled air by one or several people and you remove it from your face, touching the surfaces exposed to that air? Without proper disinfecting processes, that dust mask or bandana are now potentially covered with the virus you are trying to protect yourself against. Handling the mask to put it on for the next hiker contact sharply increases the likelihood of infection or worse, passing it to others without knowing you are inflicting illness on others.
On washing of hands, the CDC advises:
Wash your hands frequentlyRegularly and thoroughly clean your hands with an alcohol-based hand rub or wash them with soap and water.
Why? Washing your hands with soap and water or using alcohol-based hand rub kills viruses that may be on your hands.
Perhaps Europe has a different point of view and medical data that suggest hand washing is not a critical element in controlling the spread of disease, so I will be interested to see who is saying that, what qualifications they possess to say it, and in what context it is being said in.
Overall, what makes the most sense is the practice of social isolation and sheltering in place to reduce contact with those carrying virus. For now, these are probably the best two methods people can use to best avoid illness. This puts hiking into the grey area of disease management, while the social distance element can be employed a lot, it is not always assured in narrow tread way foot bridges and other places where there is no place to step out of the way 6-foot or more.
I don't mean to sound harsh in this, but we as a community need to be careful in promoting things that are clearly against published best practice and common sense. It's not about you personally, it's about the information and doing what we can to vet new information and adapt it for the activity that unites us.
I couldn't have said it better. Social distancing and thorough hand washing are what the experts have repeated time and again as the best defenses against spreading the virus.
Shelter in place/stay at home won't last forever, but it's our best bet for slowing the transmission of the virus. It's just simple math: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/corona-simulator/
Please protect yourself, your family, and your community by staying home.
TexasBob
03-30-2020, 09:36
Except that at this point in time, we don't have enough masks for the medical professionals, nevermind the general public.
Since this thread is about ethics, you have to ask yourself how ethical is it to be using masks that health care workers are in dire need of to protect themselves while trying to save lives. Wearing a mask is of dubious value in preventing the average person from getting coronavirus as has been stated by the CDC and others. Personally, I believe if you feel you need a mask you should make your own.
AsoloBootsSuk
03-30-2020, 09:43
Here is an interesting article on diy masks
https://twin-cities.umn.edu/news-events/diy-face-masks-during-covid-19
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CI8AJzRgJHmY5VWlcbwplMtwTWeQfl9a/view
What is the source of information that primitive DIY masks does "quite a lot" to reduce exposure of infection, or washing hands is not a "critical measure" against the virus? Nothing I have seen or heard suggests those things. I am not sure who would be saying this, however these comments are contrary to what's being said by medical professionals here in the US. Though what we do in our own domiciles is our own business, what we do in public in the hiking trail environment is our collective business and responsibility.
...
You are perfectly right, Traveller.
And sorry that I didn't put my words in the right context.
In a perfect world, having this Corona pandemy, nobody would go outdoors, no hiking, nothing.
In our real world, people have to go out every now and then, otherwise more and more would start to go nuts and run havoc.
Plus, the world needs to get people infected, survive and get immune at a somewhat controlled pace.
A mask (any mask) would slow down the infection rate significatly, thus allowing the people more freedom to move while still keeping the infection rate at a moderate level so that the med&care system can keep pace.
So its not about keeping the virus away from you 100% (unless you are a doctor or a nurse or are in close contact with infected people).
Its about slowing down the infection rate.
And its about you (being potentially infected without knowing) protecting others, by wearing a simple mask.
About ways of infection:
The German Robert Koch Institute states (as of Friday last week), that infection mainy happens by respiratory seretion and aerosole transmittion, infection by indirect contact "should be considered".
You can and will still wash/sanitize our hands for any number of reasons you may see.
Thats the most actual and relieable information we can get in Europe.
futureatwalker
03-30-2020, 16:08
OK, another dimension to the ethical issue...
What if people stay on trail and, inadvertently, spread the virus to trail towns? (And I suspect this might be more germane to the PCT, where small towns in the Eastern Sierra's have asked for people to stay away, but the same debate is raging).
There's the immediate effect, of course. But my question is about the long-term damage done by abusing the good-will of trail towns. Is this poisoning the well for later hikers?
Yes, that is certainly a plausible outcome.
4eyedbuzzard
03-30-2020, 16:23
OK, another dimension to the ethical issue...
What if people stay on trail and, inadvertently, spread the virus to trail towns? (And I suspect this might be more germane to the PCT, where small towns in the Eastern Sierra's have asked for people to stay away, but the same debate is raging).
There's the immediate effect, of course. But my question is about the long-term damage done by abusing the good-will of trail towns. Is this poisoning the well for later hikers?Possible, but it's very likely that even in small towns on the AT local residents have already been exposed. It's not like the local residents don't travel to nearby towns or businesses, etc. This virus is very contagious, people are often asymptomatic for over a week, and the reports we are getting as to where it is are delayed as well. Without discounting the negative direct effect of the virus, the largest long-term damage to trail towns will most likely be economic from a non-existent 2020 thru-hiker season. I think they will welcome back hikers with open arms once this is over.
VERNON — According to the Park Service, ”(the) trail’s boardwalk and bridge are too narrow for visitors to maintain the required six feet of social distancing.”...
Makes sense - thinking of a similar section outside of Pawling (NY) heading towards CT where you go through a locally owned nature preserve. They also have boardwalks that go on for dozens of sections in a row, and since these are generally put there due to wet conditions (and this being a generally wetter season of the year) it is probably tougher to step off if someone is going the opposite direction to give the needed spacing.
danil411
03-31-2020, 12:27
A Dr. on ABC, this morning spoke of things in a different light. It's not necessarily how many ventilators you have, you could have a million, it's how many trained people (IE respiratory therapists) you have to operate them. This pandemic definitely has the ability to overrun any healthcare system.
I also imagine that machines with rubber and plastic cannot be stored without running/maintenance for very many years?
danil411
03-31-2020, 12:30
https://www.njherald.com/news/20200329/appalachian-trail-boardwalk-closed-as-covid-19-cases-climb
VERNON — Authorities have closed a portion of the Appalachian Trail ... because the Appalachian Trail is under the authority of the Appalachian Trail Conservancy, Burrell said he did not have the authority as mayor, acting on his own, to close the Appalachian Trail or prevent people from accessing any portion of it.That has since changed following the New Jersey State Park Service’s announcement late Friday, in conjunction with the conservancy, that the Appalachian Trail boardwalk has been closed and will remain closed until further notice. According to the Park Service, ”(the) trail’s boardwalk and bridge are too narrow for visitors to maintain the required six feet of social distancing.”...
So, NJ State Parks, in coordination with ATC, closed this section. On a larger scale, I believe NPS has legal authority to close (power to regulate) any or all parts of the AT under 54 USC. Yes and NJ State Parks closed privies and shelters within its parks, as did the ATC within its jurisdiction. Luckily we have plenty of hiking options within the state parks and DWGNRA to get outside and avoid crowds.
4eyedbuzzard
03-31-2020, 12:56
Makes sense - thinking of a similar section outside of Pawling (NY) heading towards CT where you go through a locally owned nature preserve. They also have boardwalks that go on for dozens of sections in a row, and since these are generally put there due to wet conditions (and this being a generally wetter season of the year) it is probably tougher to step off if someone is going the opposite direction to give the needed spacing.As a rough guideline, and where it would be reasonable, most trail clubs clear/trim the trail to a minimum roughly 4 ft wide x 8 ft high - imagine that a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood could pass down the trail. It's kind of a rough visible guideline. Obviously this can't happen in all places like the Lemon Squeezer or Mahoosuc Notch or any planked/boarded walks just as more extreme examples. Truly maintaining 6 ft while passing other hikers is not possible in many if not most places without leaving the actual worn footpath. In high use areas, trail threading - multiple alternate paths established by wear - can create erosion and other problems. This happens a lot around shelters, water sources, trailheads etc. In most areas one or two hikers stepping off the trail momentarily isn't a big problem, but it can be a hiker safety issue in some areas (swamps, steep falloffs) and an ecological issue in fragile vegetation areas like the Whites and others for example.
Now, that all said:
Realistically, the 6 ft distance is also more of a guideline just like the 4 x 8 trail dimension. People aren't walking around with tape measures extended (well, most of us aren't). And in Europe and most of the world, the standard is 2 meters = 6' 6 47/64" . Are Europeans 9% safer based upon linear distance? We can go nuts with this social distancing stuff - applying circumferential measurements, inverse square laws, upwind/downwind, etc. Or we can just apply the reasonable person standard.
My opinion, and yes, that's all it is - I think the average person is 100, or maybe even 1000, times more likely to contract the coronavirus buying groceries, meds, gas, at work, or whatever, than they are passing someone momentarily on a hiking trail. Everything you see in a store has been touched and breathed on by other people. Everything you bring into your home, even if delivered, has been touched and breathed on by other people. So has every door handle, gas pump, etc. I think some of the current outdoor space closures go beyond the reasonable person standard based upon people's inability to absolutely and at every moment maintain those same distancing standards in the unavoidable environments in their "stay at home" lives (stores, workplaces, etc). I think in some cases we've crossed the line between exercising reasonable caution and have dipped our toes into fear driven overreaction. This crisis is going to take a long time to overcome, and most of us are going to get exposed over the next couple of months regardless of our location or any precautions we may take. If I don't contract it on the AT from the few other hikers I encounter or the every 4th day resupply, I'll contract it from the people I'll pass in the grocery store aisle in a grocery when I shop every 4th day at home. Typically, I've passed more people within 6 ft or less in grocery aisles and been in the same (indoor - yuck) airspace in a 15 minute shopping trip than I would hiking. I'm seeing pictures of cars parked at trailheads as evidence of some big social distancing problem - yet those same cars and people might as well otherwise be at a store or some other parking lot with different (and even more?) cars and people. As long as they're not congregating and forming unrelated groups and lingering there, I don't see the issue. I understand closing down public assemblies and gatherings like movie theaters and concerts and church services and Trail Days and such, closing trail shelters, banning hiker feeds, etc. I understand the need to flatten the contagion curve. But I honestly can't agree with the ban on dispersed overnight camping - as if people are safer and less contagious breathing the air in their adjoining suburban houses and yards or apartments or taking neighborhood walks than they are in their tent. I just don't get it. Is airborne contagion somehow more likely in the forest than it is in suburbia? I just don't see hikers passing each other on trails, nor dispersed camping, as the huge public health problem it is being made out to be. People are still going to go outdoors and take walks and such. It seems to be more an exercise in some of these cases of shifting any possible social interaction somewhere else, but honestly not actually reducing it to any great degree. My fear is that some of these actions are driven at least to some degree by virtue signalling rather than critical thinking.
I do agree that in some high traffic areas, closures might be reasonable. But some of what I'm seeing/reading seems to be more over-reaction to just "do something" rather than a decision based upon reason.
Feel free to disagree. At 63, and with some underlying health issues, I have no great desire to contract this disease, nor to pass it to anyone else. I just want our response to it to be more than simply "stay inside your house" and "all outdoor activities near other people are bad." Because realistically, that isn't happening and never will.
Most recent scientific (here Europe) research indicate, that aerosols and respiratory secretion is by far the most common way of infection, and indirect contact is not that dangerous.
Given that you don't practice french kisses, the plume of breath that every person exhales/sneezes/coughs is the issue to avoid (a) by keeping distance, (b) by wearing a simple mask or (c) by not meeting people at all.
SurferNerd
03-31-2020, 15:02
It's been a long while since I've made a post in here, and here's my 2cents.
I've considered going back on the AT if my job get's furloughed. My career is 100% travel and well...that's shot. So I'm working their IT help desk taking tickets until they run out of stuff to do. I'm good for now, but it may go sour eventually.
We as humans are so domesticated that most don't have the survive or die instinct or knowledge in them, most of those city folk are screwed once the groceries store dry up. If one knows how to thrive off grid there's a chance for survival if one heads for the forests. If Covid-19 really tanks this country and SHTF scenario, I'm grabbing my B.O.B and heading for the mountains. The problem seems to be that the domesticated folks who require shelters and privies because they don't know how to backwoods camp or dig a hole are piling into the woods to escape for the day. If you can survive without needing to be social or use communal objects, I say go for it, But if you require to be constantly connected to the real world, then ya..stay away.
..... I just want our response to it to be more than simply "stay inside your house" and "all outdoor activities near other people are bad." Because realistically, that isn't happening and never will.
Much of the trail is still open to anyone that wants to hike it. They are just discouraging people not to hike and requesting that they don't. The biggest issue is that a hiker is not particularly independent out there and they do not want responsibility for it being spread or for putting people in danger. Good interview done by Backpacker Radio which is hosted by two AT thru-hikers with president and CEO of the trail Conservancy.
stephanD
03-31-2020, 19:56
Most recent scientific (here Europe) research indicate, that aerosols and respiratory secretion is by far the most common way of infection, and indirect contact is not that dangerous.
Given that you don't practice french kisses, the plume of breath that every person exhales/sneezes/coughs is the issue to avoid (a) by keeping distance, (b) by wearing a simple mask or (c) by not meeting people at all.
As Said the Greek philosopher Aristotle, we are political (social) animals. Not having contact with fellow humans is against our own DNA. Confinement meant only to slow the pace of the epidemic, not to stop it. Eventually, most of us will be contaminated, no matter where we live.
True - and exactly the reason why not to jump into the mud full-face in unison, but take it slowly so that the health system can keep pace.
Alligator
04-03-2020, 09:58
The position of the ATC and 29 out of 31 trail clubs is reported here (https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/136409-Covid-19-and-Trail-News-Articles?p=2267273&viewfull=1#post2267273).
LazyLightning
04-03-2020, 10:11
Close the parking areas and you take more then 90% of the people off the trail. Trying to stop anybody from walking anywhere on the entire trail is not the right thing to do.
Alligator
04-03-2020, 12:00
Direct link to the letter (https://34d9q31w7ubkusayp1ojyti4-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2020-04-01-ANST-Closure-Request-UPDATED.pdf) from the ATC and Trail Clubs to the Departments of Interior and Agriculture, National Park Service, and Forest Service.
kayakpro
04-03-2020, 12:26
I maintain a shelter on the AT in Virginia as well as a trail section. The shelters and privies are officially closed and PATC members have been instructed to not engage in maintenance activities until further notice. I still go check the areas to make sure there is no damage, etc. I was surprised to see 3 thru/section hikers in a 2 hour span at the shelter. They stand a chance of getting the virus from each other, from people they hitch rides with and from the towns they visit for resupply. At the same time they have the chance to be a vector of transmission. Getting deathly sick on the trail is not smart. Sharing a potentially deadly virus with others is inexcusable. Please be considerate of yourself and others and pick another year. Stay Healthy!
Lone Wolf
04-03-2020, 12:44
I was surprised to see 3 thru/section hikers in a 2 hour span at the shelter. They stand a chance of getting the virus from each other, from people they hitch rides with and from the towns they visit for resupply. At the same time they have the chance to be a vector of transmission. Getting deathly sick on the trail is not smart. Sharing a potentially deadly virus with others is inexcusable. Please be considerate of yourself and others and pick another year. Stay Healthy!surprised? there's a steady stream of hikers comin' through Damascus daily headin' your way
kayak,
maybe you should have stayed home. maybe you infected those hikers. how do you know you didn't? don't blame the hikers when you are out there yourself.
also, your message is all about possibilities. what if....what if....the hikers you were talking about neither attracted the virus and didnt have before hiking. what if they were actually virus free?
as a hiker who grew up in Appalachia.....and lives semi-close.....it is still sad to me ....that the woods are closed.....to anyone near and far. can't be afraid. need to live. choose to live.
and by the way, if I did catch the virus and I became deathly ill, there is nowhere more I would love to leave my ghost.....than on a hiking trail
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
Was that supposed to make any rational sense?
rational? absolutely. what's irrational?
the real question is when did you get to decide what is rational about my life.
btw, im not saying we should all go outside, hug, and stand side by side. we definetly need to be smart. and we can be smart while we are hiking just like we are smart while being in everyday life.
what I'm say is to jump to conclusions that hikers are carrying or spreading the virus is not the answer. it is actually wrong....very wrong
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
Christoph
04-03-2020, 21:46
I was wondering the same thing about "checking for damage" when we're supposed to be clear of the trail and shelter areas. Seems a bit hypocritical to me the way that was written.
Slo-go'en
04-03-2020, 22:37
what I'm say is to jump to conclusions that hikers are carrying or spreading the virus is not the answer. it is actually wrong....very wrong
Unfortunately, at the moment you have to assume that everyone you meet is a potential carrier and that maybe you are too and don't yet know it. That's the insidious part of this paranoia.
This would normally be one of the peak weeks for thru hikers to start. Imagine if 50 people a day had been showing up at Springer from all over with the current situation. There could be an epidemic by the time they got to Hiawassee. I don't know if all these people would have taken it on themselves to cancel the hike or had to be pushed into it by the closures, pleas and dire warnings from the ATC.
Hikers who started in early March are no doubt virus free. But with warmer weather and people coming in from urban areas to do a little hiking, they could very well bring the virus with them.
Traveler
04-04-2020, 08:12
Interesting the attitudes around the US and how they impact the health of communities in pursuit of self interests, be it financial or other. Let's hope no one has to discover the bodies of those expiring on the trail and having to clean up the final mess.
TexasBob
04-04-2020, 10:33
......also, your message is all about possibilities. what if....what if....the hikers you were talking about neither attracted the virus and didnt have before hiking. what if they were actually virus free? ........
Up to possibly 25% of those infected with coronavirus are asymptomatic and can spread the virus. Don't assume those hikers are virus free because they aren't showing symptoms.
4eyedbuzzard
04-04-2020, 10:44
OPINION:
There seems to be an idea out there in some people's minds that almost everybody in the US is just staying at home everyday - that everyone is holed up waiting this thing out. It just isn't the reality. Even given stay-at home and social (physical) distancing policies, tens of millions of us - most of the workforce in fact - are still going to work everyday. Some activities can be suspended - schools, entertainment and sports and other gatherings, etc. Some people can telework - most cannot. While certain businesses, social activities, and gatherings can be suspended, most manufacturing, supply of goods and services, infrastructure, healthcare, etc., simply goes on. Many millions of us are in one way or another part of the supply chain of goods and services that simply can't be interrupted. And we are contracting and spreading this disease, often before we become symptomatic. Those who aren't in this group aren't really isolated from us - they interact with us directly or indirectly everyday either through obtaining and using/consuming products we handle or as service providers or as household family members. And while we try to do what we can to mitigate the spread, it is realistically impossible to maintain things like constant physical separation from co-workers, perfectly clean handling of goods, perfect hygiene, etc. CDC has finally decided that masks might be a reasonable idea (took 'em long enough, huh?). And while I believe mask usage when in close proximity with other people and in public places, especially in stores, crowded areas, etc., is a good idea that can help (it isn't an end-all), most of us have not been wearing masks. There are many reasons - mask shortages, the government and CDC being reactive rather than proactive (and weeks behind in their actions), cultural resistance, and even mandates by some government agencies and private industries that employees NOT wear masks due to security/identification reasons, and to not create fear in the general public. I'm out there everyday in my little role of keeping everything going. So is my wife. Along with millions and millions of others. Even if you don't come into direct contact with us in the course of our work, you consume what we produce. We shop at the same stores you do, touch the same doors and gas pump handles, walk the same streets and parking lots, breathe the same air... The tens of millions of us "essential" workers are undoubtedly spreading this disease throughout the population and entire chain of goods and services. No matter what you do, or where you do it, you will be exposed. It is inevitable.
So regarding hikers: Should they consider rescheduling? Yes. The logistics of hiking this year will make it more difficult due to travel, trail services, etc., and if they do get sick, treatment away from home will become an issue. Should hikers congregate in groups? Obviously, no. Should they maintain adequate distance between themselves? Yes. Practice good trail hygiene? Yeah, just as they should any other time. Should they wear a mask when in town at the store or even when passing a group of others? Sure. We all need to do what we can. But the notion some have expressed that a few hikers passing each other on a trail outdoors, or even buying groceries at a store near the trail, poses some sort of severe infection spreading threat beyond what already exists off trail for both the hiker and non-hiker alike, or that they will have any significant impact regarding "flattening the curve", is simply absurd in the scope of things.
Up to possibly 25% of those infected with coronavirus are asymptomatic and can spread the virus. Don't assume those hikers are virus free because they aren't showing symptoms.
This. Not only are they spreading it, they can spread it at high levels. Here is an eye-opening quote from the journal of Science:
"In a study published in the journal Science earlier this month, Shaman and his colleagues found that undocumented COVID-19 cases were responsible for 86 percent of the spread (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/03/24/science.abb3221/tab-pdf) of the disease in China before the country enacted travel restrictions on January 23, 2020. "
from https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/asymptomatic-carriers-are-fueling-the-covid-19-pandemic-heres-why-you-dont
This makes all of us potential carriers and without testing every person, it's going to be difficult to limit the spread of this virus. No one should be out thru hiking right now.
Slo-go'en
04-04-2020, 11:23
OPINION: But the notion some have expressed that a few hikers passing each other on a trail outdoors, or even buying groceries at a store near the trail, poses some sort of severe infection spreading threat beyond what already exists off trail for both the hiker and non-hiker alike, or that they will have any significant impact regarding "flattening the curve", is simply absurd in the scope of things.
However, as I pointed out earlier, if wanabe thru hikers had shown up at Springer in the numbers which are typical for this time of year - several thousand over the course of a month or so and with the crowded conditions at shelters and campsites, there would be the potential for serious problems. All of these people coming in from who knows where and by unknown means, many if not most could have been exposed to the virus on the way to the trail, if they didn't already have it. Say one person heading to the trail infects a shuttle driver, who then transports another 100 people. See the problem? Guess where they would all fall ill? Franklin, NC.
Yea, once you leave your house for any reason, you run the risk of catching the CV-19 and eventually you probably will. But at home, being well feed, warm and with your body not all stressed out from hiking, you have a better chance of fighting it off and seeking medical help if needed.
4eyedbuzzard
04-04-2020, 12:00
However, as I pointed out earlier, if wanabe thru hikers had shown up at Springer in the numbers which are typical for this time of year - several thousand over the course of a month or so and with the crowded conditions at shelters and campsites, there would be the potential for serious problems. People of southern states are already at great risk due to the slow and inept response to the pandemic. A lot of thru hikers would just make it worse. All of these people coming in from who knows where and by unknown means, many if not most could have been exposed to the virus on the way to the trail, if they didn't already have it. Guess where they would all fall ill? Franklin, NC.
Yea, once you leave your house for any reason, you run the risk of catching the CV-19 and eventually you probably will. But at home, being well feed, warm and with your body not all stressed out from hiking, you have a better chance of fighting it off and seeking medical help if needed.I agree to a great extent, especially regarding the Springer Fever numbers (or what takes place on the Franconia Loop on a nice summer day), hiker convergence, the logistics of travel in crowded public places, etc. What I object to is the notion that a few people have expressed that just being outside in general and/or walking a trail constitute some sort of grave public health threat beyond what people do in their "safe stay at home" lives. There is reasonable concern and reasonable caution to be exercised everywhere. I wish my everyday risk - to both contract or infect someone else - was as small as passing a couple other hikers over the course of a few hours. I doubt I'm alone in that wish.
Slo-go'en
04-04-2020, 14:32
I just took a walk over to the Valley Way trailhead (Locally known as Appalachia). 18 cars, 1/3d from Mass and all the NH ones likely from down state where the CV-19 is currently spreading. There are even 3 cars parked at the obscure trailhead next to my house, one from Vermont.
If I pass one of these hikers from a high risk area, am I truly safe? The ironic thing is trail conditions currently suck and they should not even be on these trails right now.
Lone Wolf
04-04-2020, 15:14
i just took a stroll on the AT north of town. not a soul out there. getting to the steps on the Creeper trail was another story. a dozen bikes and about the same amount of walkers passed us
"This year's flu season is shaping up to be possibly less severe than the 2017-2018 season, when 61,000 deaths were linked to the virus. However, it could equal or surpass the 2018-2019 season's 34,200 flu-related deaths.
Overall, the CDC estimates that 12,000 and 61,000 deaths annually since 2010 can be blamed on the flu. Globally, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that the flu kills 290,000 to 650,000 people per year."
(from: https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/how-many-people-die-of-the-flu-every-year).
At some point, we will be able to present factual retro-perspective on COVID-19: for now, the unknown inspires all the fear, and every stone is being overturned until the faith that it has passed ensues.
"This year's flu season is shaping up to be possibly less severe than the 2017-2018 season, when 61,000 deaths were linked to the virus. However, it could equal or surpass the 2018-2019 season's 34,200 flu-related deaths.
Overall, the CDC estimates that 12,000 and 61,000 deaths annually since 2010 can be blamed on the flu. Globally, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that the flu kills 290,000 to 650,000 people per year."
(from: https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/how-many-people-die-of-the-flu-every-year).
At some point, we will be able to present factual retro-perspective on COVID-19: for now, the unknown inspires all the fear, and every stone is being overturned until the faith that it has passed ensues.
What is not "unknown" are the death rates in an average flu season and with CV-19, to date. This pandemic is much deadlier than the flu.
Puddlefish
04-04-2020, 18:45
I agree to a great extent, especially regarding the Springer Fever numbers (or what takes place on the Franconia Loop on a nice summer day), hiker convergence, the logistics of travel in crowded public places, etc. What I object to is the notion that a few people have expressed that just being outside in general and/or walking a trail constitute some sort of grave public health threat beyond what people do in their "safe stay at home" lives. There is reasonable concern and reasonable caution to be exercised everywhere. I wish my everyday risk - to both contract or infect someone else - was as small as passing a couple other hikers over the course of a few hours. I doubt I'm alone in that wish.
I have a trailhead at the end of my road, it's a mile walk to get there. If the parking lot is crowded, I skip the trail for that day, and I've gotten in a two mile road walk, which is good enough. My interactions on the trail... have been mixed. The irresponsible lady who let her two dogs off leash, and let them attack my dog... is she also irresponsible in other aspects of her life? I've no idea. Most people have been awesome about stepping off to the side of our trail and letting each other pass, it's a lower altitude easy trail where there's a lot of space to step to the side. Then again, I had one guy come up and get right in my face, wanting to congratulate me for not being "paranoid" about the "Wuhan" flu. I about put my hiking pole in his chest to ward him off.
We have no way of knowing if the other person on the trail is taking reasonable precautions or not. It's the old box of chocolates thing, you never know what you're going to get.
Rippin Reils
04-05-2020, 00:18
Well having read a lot of the posts on this thread, here's my 2 cents worth from someone who was going to start a thru-hike in GA on April 1st, (which I have responsibly cancelled) in lieu of still trying a thru-hike if this pandemic finally relents, by starting at the end of May in SNP and doing a Flip-Flop thru-hike.
Mind you I have been planning this thru-hike from literally the day after I finished my first thru-hike on Oct. 3rd 1980!
So it's been 40 years in the making. From a young punk of 20, to a grisly old fart of 60, I have waited patiently for the time to retire and relive the memories of my first thru-hike, by hiking in 2020. Without sounding selfish, it sucks not to be hiking the AT right now. But there are more important things in life going on right now and millions of people have made small sacrifices for the betterment of the current situation...
Ultimately nobody has the right to tell another person how to live their lives. We can all agree on that I surmise. But what's happening around the world with Covid - 19 and more specifically here in our own country calls attention that we are all in this TOGETHER!!!
The only true course is to do as the health experts are begging us all to do: STAY HOME & BE SAFE!!! Suspend any type of action that puts any number of people in harms way. It's really the morale thing to do, plain & simple, and the best way to beat this deadly, highly contagious virus.
The AT, PCT, CDT, and all the other great trails of our great country will still be there when this pandemic is finally over. And if we all pull together, perhaps we can "flatten' the curve" faster and ultimately get back on all the trails we love & miss.
I'm planning on it with a little help from my friends... Happy Trails...
Very well put.
For the sake of your health, please stay at home.
This is the only feasible method mankind has to fight the Corona pandemy.
We here in Austria are under quite a strict "stay at home"-policy since 3 weeks now and finally numbers of infection stopped to explode now.
Another 2-3 weeks of quasi-quaranaine and the horror could be past.
QuietStorm
04-05-2020, 07:10
Two days ago I learned I was negative for COVID 19. I had become symptomatic on March 24, ended up in the ER, was sent home to quarantine for 14 days, and was tested on March 31. Will that change my decision and behavior? No, not one bit. I'm as likely to contract and infect someone else now as I was before. I have 188 miles to go to finish my section hike of the AT. I haven't stepped foot on the trail since March 21 for a day training hike in PA. What I saw then was enough to convince me to stay off regardless of what the ATC recommends. I picked a well-traveled part of PA--from Caledonia State Park to Birch Run Shelter and back--but it was below freezing when I started and foolish me thought this would be a typical late winter, early spring day with few hikers. In any case, I had originally planned to finish my last section beginning June 28 and summiting around July 14. I postponed it yesterday with the Hostel of Maine, which is helping me with logistics. I had already booked KSC for July 13 but will try to see if BSP will allow me to change the date.
LazyLightning
04-05-2020, 10:14
According to the notice I got all shelters and privies are closed in CT... That's good and good they didn't "close the trail". Stop thru hikers and close the parking areas if it's too crowded - but don't stop people who are willing to walk or get a ride and avoid others on the trail. Your way more likely to catch it walking down any street I drive down that's full of people walking, never mind the grocery store. As far as the claim that "there's some spots where your on a ledge and can't step off 6 feet" --- then don't go there if your worried. Not many places in CT where you can't let somebody pass. Plenty of other trails to, I've been visiting unpopular ones and probably wont even go near the AT anytime soon unless they close parking areas. They still shouldn't try to stop every single person from walking on it, like I think the ATC wanted but didn't get.
-Your actually still allowed to camp around the shelters with tents and dig cat holes according to the forest service's notice.
Alligator
04-05-2020, 10:25
According to the notice I got all shelters and privies are closed in CT... That's good and good they didn't "close the trail". Stop thru hikers and close the parking areas if it's too crowded - but don't stop people who are willing to walk or get a ride and avoid others on the trail. Your way more likely to catch it walking down any street I drive down that's full of people walking, never mind the grocery store. As far as the claim that "there's some spots where your on a ledge and can't step off 6 feet" --- then don't go there if your worried. Not many places in CT where you can't let somebody pass. Plenty of other trails to, I've been visiting unpopular ones and probably wont even go near the AT anytime soon unless they close parking areas. They still shouldn't try to stop every single person from walking on it, like I think the ATC wanted but didn't get.
-Your actually still allowed to camp around the shelters with tents and dig cat holes according to the forest service's notice.You know why you think that works...because the majority of everybody else is doing what has been asked of them. Ethics is what you do when nobody is watching.
kolokolo
04-05-2020, 10:40
You know why you think that works...because the majority of everybody else is doing what has been asked of them. Ethics is what you do when nobody is watching.
Well said.
LazyLightning
04-05-2020, 11:22
Well for what it's worth I am doing everything that has been asked of me according to the state and national/state forest service and like I said I'm not even going near the AT myself right now, because of crowds.
Alligator
04-05-2020, 13:35
Well for what it's worth I am doing everything that has been asked of me according to the state and national/state forest service and like I said I'm not even going near the AT myself right now, because of crowds.Thank you. Hopefully in the not so distant future this becomes more manageable and some of the more distract measures can be relaxed.
greenmtnboy
04-05-2020, 18:37
I work at a big box store for property improvement. It is just starting to dawn on people in many areas that this can get serious with those who are vulnerable. Many already have immunity. The ethical problem would be giving it to others.
There are many articles online on this regarding the AT. https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-pandemic-disrupts-appalachian-trail-050704979.html
Many already have immunity.
Why do you say that?
stephanD
04-05-2020, 21:30
Why do you say that?
majority of people recover and develop antibodies, hence are immunized
Sure, that's a long term outcome. It's certainly not the present state.
Crushed Grapes
04-05-2020, 21:57
It is just starting to dawn on people in many areas that this can get serious with those who are vulnerable.
Just now figuring it out....after weeks of guidance. Nice. Well done, people.
Slo-go'en
04-05-2020, 21:59
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/miscgreen/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by greenmtnboy https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2267414#post2267414)
Many already have immunity.
Why do you say that?
If you've had it and got over it, your (probably) immune. Unfortunately, we have no good way to determine who has become immune. That takes a blood test for antibodies and is not practical to do on massive scale. In the news we only hear about the extreme cases and the ones which result in death. For everyone of those, there are 100's who had it and recovered or are recovering. Since the virus is still spreading like wild fire, I'd guess we haven't come close to achieving any kind of wide spread herd immunity, even in the current "hot spots".
In the news we only hear about the extreme cases and the ones which result in death. For everyone of those, there are 100's who had it and recovered or are recovering.
i can’t necessarily speak for other news outlets, but the station I work for has been reporting on
not only number of deaths, but also number of people who have recovered...
Traveler
04-06-2020, 07:01
If you've had it and got over it, your (probably) immune. Unfortunately, we have no good way to determine who has become immune. That takes a blood test for antibodies and is not practical to do on massive scale. In the news we only hear about the extreme cases and the ones which result in death. For everyone of those, there are 100's who had it and recovered or are recovering. Since the virus is still spreading like wild fire, I'd guess we haven't come close to achieving any kind of wide spread herd immunity, even in the current "hot spots".
We do not know if immunity follows infection as a certainty. It could be like other disease that once contracted and suffered through, there is immunity from further outbreaks. However, science does not know if COVID 19 will behave as some other diseases in many ways, including if people can become reinfected once they have had the illness. It could be much like flu, once you get it, you can get it again and again as it mutates even slightly from a strain that infected you before. One can believe immunity follows infection of this virus, but until it's been demonstrated and can be documented scientifically, caution dictates we should probably presume the opposite.
TexasBob
04-06-2020, 09:50
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/miscgreen/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by greenmtnboy https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2267414#post2267414)
Many already have immunity.
If you've had it and got over it, your (probably) immune. Unfortunately, we have no good way to determine who has become immune. That takes a blood test for antibodies and is not practical to do on massive scale. In the news we only hear about the extreme cases and the ones which result in death. For everyone of those, there are 100's who had it and recovered or are recovering. Since the virus is still spreading like wild fire, I'd guess we haven't come close to achieving any kind of wide spread herd immunity, even in the current "hot spots".
The last I heard 20% of cases require hospitalization so rather than 100's who have recovered and are fine for every bad case it would seem more like 4 "mild" cases per serious one. Of course if a significant portion of people (some say up to 25%) who get the virus are asymptomatic then you are right there maybe 100's who get it and are fine for every serious case. We won't know the real numbers until better analysis is available down the road.
Testing for antibodies on a massive scale seems impractical but may actually be what happens later this year after the pandemic peaks. Testing workers to see who can safely return to work has been suggested as a way to get businesses re-opened and the economy restarted. My wife works for a company that has thousands of people working at their campus and they have everybody but essential personnel working from home. I wonder how they are going to decide when to recall people to work from their campus. Testing for antibodies to see which ones are immune and allowing those folks back on campus might be one way.
We are in uncharted territory and there is no telling what the months ahead hold in store for us.
I think an antibody test will be available before the vaccine is available. Antibody testing would allow those positive for antibodies to get back to work, school to go hike without risk. Those that are in high risk groups will need to continue to social distance until a vaccine is available.
Back when I was a kid, when one of the neighbor kids got chicken pox, my mom and all the other moms in the neighborhood would take us over to play at that families house. It was highly encouraged by our MD. Getting chicken pox when your a kid is much better than getting it when your older. My dad never had it as a kid so he would stay far away. Not suggesting anyone do that, but a 20 something with no underlying conditions is probably at low risk of needing hospitalization from Wuhan Flu.
One Half
04-07-2020, 07:52
I think an antibody test will be available before the vaccine is available. Antibody testing would allow those positive for antibodies to get back to work, school to go hike without risk. Those that are in high risk groups will need to continue to social distance until a vaccine is available.
Back when I was a kid, when one of the neighbor kids got chicken pox, my mom and all the other moms in the neighborhood would take us over to play at that families house. It was highly encouraged by our MD. Getting chicken pox when your a kid is much better than getting it when your older. My dad never had it as a kid so he would stay far away. Not suggesting anyone do that, but a 20 something with no underlying conditions is probably at low risk of needing hospitalization from Wuhan Flu.
A vaccine is going to take 12-18 months to develop. Just google it if you are curious.
As far as deaths being attributed to Covid 19 - that is being misrepresented. Currently any person who dies and has tested positive for the disease or is tested post mortem and found to be positive, is being "counted" as a covid death. But this is inaccurate at best, dangerously deceiving in the worse. If you have covid 19 with no symptoms and then end up dead from an underlying condition, should you be counted as a C19 death? Not in my opinion. If you were hit by a car and had mild symptoms of C19 and died, would you count that as a C19 death? You sgouldn't be. But that IS what is happening. It was recently reported that an infant of 7 weeks "died of C19." While the baby DID test positive post mortem, s/he had NO symptoms and I have seen reports that s/he was possibly smothered by the caregiver. I have seen that some of the reason for listing these deaths inaccurately is because the .gov has assured hospitals that expenses for ALL UNINSURED deaths from C19 will be covered by the taxpayers. So do hospitals have an "incentive" to list C.O.D. as C19? YES.
Slo-go'en
04-07-2020, 08:37
I have seen that some of the reason for listing these deaths inaccurately is because the .gov has assured hospitals that expenses for ALL UNINSURED deaths from C19 will be covered by the taxpayers. So do hospitals have an "incentive" to list C.O.D. as C19? YES.
Sounds like something from a right wing conspiracy website. Having COVD-19 can make an underlying condition more serious, causing death. While the virus might not be THE cause of death, it was "the final straw". If anything deaths caused by or aggravated by COVD-19 are being underreported.
The Old Chief
04-07-2020, 10:45
Sounds like something from a right wing conspiracy website. Having COVD-19 can make an underlying condition more serious, causing death. While the virus might not be THE cause of death, it was "the final straw". If anything deaths caused by or aggravated by COVD-19 are being underreported.
Not a right wing conspiracy website: https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/491113-administration-says-it-will-reimburse-hospitals-for-treating And where is your proof that deaths caused by Covid-19 are being under-reported?
At this point there's no consensus on them being either under or over reported. Just theories in both directions. And none of that discussion relates to the ethics of thru hiking right now.
Slo-go'en
04-07-2020, 12:11
Not a right wing conspiracy website: https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/491113-administration-says-it-will-reimburse-hospitals-for-treating And where is your proof that deaths caused by Covid-19 are being under-reported?
I'm disputing the statement that hospitals are taking advantage of the program by inflating the number of people being treated for COVD-19 or die because of it.
If all the people that are in the high risk groups are self quarantined, it would make sense to let all the low risk groups that test positive for anti-bodies or have no underlying conditions and are not likely to be hospitalized to decide for themselves if they want to risk going out in public. If the flu is passed between low risk groups, all the better to build up community resistance and lowers the demand for any vaccine.
Based on the stats, the Wuhan flu was released into the wild in the USA in December or January, so its likely that a large part of the population has already been exposed.
So we get to the point where thru hikers, trail town residents, and the trail angels would all be making their own decisions about exposing themselves. If they are afraid, they stay home, if they are not, they are free to go to work, to open their stores, to do as they please.
Finland is already starting to test their citizens https://tinyurl.com/v9zovwd and antibody tests are being developed here https://tinyurl.com/yx2b97fh
Nanatuk, this is a theory that would most likely cause a very high death toll untill the desired outcome (achiving a herd immunity) takes place.
Look whats going on in Britain where they followed this very path for a few weeks.
Any decision to go out or stay at home does not only affect yourself, but by means of the net of social contacts lots of other people too, which may include any number of potential high-risk patients.
So going out, you might be responsible for the Corona death of others.
Ethical?
Alligator
04-07-2020, 14:50
Ethics of thruhiking during Covid-19 is the topic. It really needs to be related to thruhiking. If its just hiking related and concerns Covid-19, there's a thread open for that. Not hiking related predominately, posts will he removed and the poster may get removed from the thread. I will assume that anyone calling the virus anything other than the virus, coronavirus, novel coronavirus, or Covid-19 is looking to troll and will be treated accordingly.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Alligator
04-07-2020, 14:59
And if you really want to go with SARS-CoV-2 virus be my guest.
SkeeterPee
04-09-2020, 12:55
Some may think this is early to discuss with so many suffering around the country, but I would hope we can still discuss what reopening the AT would look like even if it is a couple months before that happen. And I would hope the ATC is considering what it takes for them to issue an all clear. Or perhaps they won't even do that this year. It would be interesting to know their criteria. I hope they comment and send us all an email on their criteria like they did when the urged us to leave the trail.
If the ATC does not come out with a plan, then what is you criteria?
I think a lot of areas are probably still locked down until June or possibly longer. For me if local and state governments start easing restrictions and the federal governments open national parks/forests, then it would be time to restart the hike. They all don't need to open at the same time, I would stick to open areas. This would probably become a flip flop hike.
How the hike might look. I would still socially distance from other hikers avoiding shelters where legal. I was hiking with a group so I am thinking we take a couple cars and hike car to car where we could hold about 2 months supplies so we do no need to go to towns, other than to do laundry.
Anyone thinking about what would get you back on the trail?
Alligator
04-09-2020, 13:13
Some may think this is early to discuss with so many suffering around the country, but I would hope we can still discuss what reopening the AT would look like even if it is a couple months before that happen. And I would hope the ATC is considering what it takes for them to issue an all clear. Or perhaps they won't even do that this year. It would be interesting to know their criteria. I hope they comment and send us all an email on their criteria like they did when the urged us to leave the trail.
If the ATC does not come out with a plan, then what is you criteria?
I think a lot of areas are probably still locked down until June or possibly longer. For me if local and state governments start easing restrictions and the federal governments open national parks/forests, then it would be time to restart the hike. They all don't need to open at the same time, I would stick to open areas. This would probably become a flip flop hike.
How the hike might look. I would still socially distance from other hikers avoiding shelters where legal. I was hiking with a group so I am thinking we take a couple cars and hike car to car where we could hold about 2 months supplies so we do no need to go to towns, other than to do laundry.
Anyone thinking about what would get you back on the trail?I moved your thread here, falls under this topic.
Alligator
04-10-2020, 01:03
Sorry this wasn't supposed to be closed. I may have brushed the close box while moving the post above here. Carry-on.
Slo-go'en
04-10-2020, 09:19
Sorry this wasn't supposed to be closed. I may have brushed the close box while moving the post above here. Carry-on.
And here I thought you were mad at me again :)
Well, it's looking more and more like even a June SOBO thru hike will be iffy. We might be past the peak by then, but the virus will still be circulating and rural areas which so far have avoided an outbreak (like where I live), once the tourists start to show up in large numbers, that could change quickly.
... How the hike might look. I would still socially distance from other hikers avoiding shelters where legal. I was hiking with a group so I am thinking we take a couple cars and hike car to car where we could hold about 2 months supplies so we do no need to go to towns, other than to do laundry.
Anyone thinking about what would get you back on the trail?
Listening to ESPN radio this morning and then reading this, both resonated with something that I've been thinking about the past week; in short, when will I feel safe enough to return to interacting with people as we did pre-COVID? If, for example, restaurants and bars were allowed to reopen in the next 8-10 weeks, would I go and dine-in? I don't think that I would. I'm almost 60, and while I don't have any health problems and am in good shape, still I don't want to take the chance of contracting COVID. It's going to take a long time before I feel comfortable being around people again.
This morning on ESPN radio, Mike Golic, Jr. mentioned a poll done by Seton Hall University School of Business in which +70% of respondents said they would not return to sports stadiums or arenas until after a vaccine was developed. ( https://www.11alive.com/article/sports/local-sports/when-will-sports-fans-feel-safe-in-stadiums-again/85-6caa66bc-d52c-4f51-9079-e747282eae45 ) I wouldn't go to such places, either, or crowded theaters, concerts, etc. Maybe I'll change my mind later this summer or fall, but for now I'm sure that I wouldn't do it.
I wouldn't feel comfortable staying at hostels, many as we all know having very tight quarters, or being in restaurants or sharing a shuttle or in a shelter, all of which are components thu hiking or long-distance hiking. Like the poll respondents, I will wait until after a vaccine or until the COVID spread has all but disappeared. I'm less worried about passing people in the trail -- two weeks ago, I did a day hike and heard or saw people coming far enough in advance for me to get off the trail 30-40 feet. I didn't mind doing so. But given all of that, my hikes this summer and fall will almost certainly be confined to 4-7 day hikes where I don't need resupply, hostels, etc.
I will be curious to see the thru-hike numbers in 2021. I would suspect that those who have lots of experience with distance hiking may hold back and wait longer than those with little to no experience.
I will be curious to see the thru-hike numbers in 2021. I would suspect that those who have lots of experience with distance hiking may hold back and wait longer than those with little to no experience.
just outta curiosity, what's your reasoning for this?
just outta curiosity, what's your reasoning for this?
I think that those with more experience in distance hiking understand just how close hikers are in shared spaces (hostels, shelters, etc), and thus may be reluctant to do so until COVID-19 has stopped spreading and infecting so many people or until a vaccine is developed. I think that novice hikers doing their first distance hike or attempting a thru believe that it's a very solitary endeavor -- I don't think they understand just how jammed up shelters and hostels are -- and thus may start out thinking that at least they will be relatively safe from COVID-19.
But it's quite possible that those with experience will adjust accordingly and use their trail knowledge to stay out of hostels/shelters and may resupply in towns less frequently.
But that's just my sense of it. I've no data at all on which to base it, just intuition.
TexasBob
04-10-2020, 10:28
Some may think this is early to discuss with so many suffering around the country, but I would hope we can still discuss what reopening the AT would look like even if it is a couple months before that happen. And I would hope the ATC is considering what it takes for them to issue an all clear. Or perhaps they won't even do that this year. It would be interesting to know their criteria. I hope they comment and send us all an email on their criteria like they did when the urged us to leave the trail.
If the ATC does not come out with a plan, then what is you criteria?............
I have been wondering this same thing the last couple of weeks. What do you use to judge the degree of danger to yourself and others by being on the trail?
I'm almost 60, and while I don't have any health problems and am in good shape, still I don't want to take the chance of contracting COVID. It's going to take a long time before I feel comfortable being around people again..............
I feel the same way and I wonder how wide spread that kind of feeling is because it will directly affect how long it takes folks to feel safe enough to be on the trail.
SkeeterPee
04-10-2020, 11:47
I would be fine staying at a motel but not a hostel until this is more clearly over. This is why I suggested we would have 2 vehicles with all our food and avoid towns and hostels. it certainly would not be the same as our first 5 weeks this winter.
We really can't wait on a vaccine. While it is possible to create one in 12-18 months, it is not likely. Mumps took 4 years, Ebola 5 years, typical vaccines have taken 10-20 years. 12-18 months is best case scenario.
SkeeterPee
04-10-2020, 12:13
I have been wondering this same thing the last couple of weeks. What do you use to judge the degree of danger to yourself and others by being on the trail?
I feel the same way and I wonder how wide spread that kind of feeling is because it will directly affect how long it takes folks to feel safe enough to be on the trail.
Two good questions. You are not in danger if you are not within 6 feet of anyone. That is pretty easy to do if you avoid shelters and hostels. I'm past the smokies so I don't plan to stay in any shelters. I am at equal risk to staying at home and hiking in a local park. If we do the 2 cars to hold food I could avoid towns for 2 months.
Slo-go'en
04-10-2020, 12:41
Two good questions. You are not in danger if you are not within 6 feet of anyone. That is pretty easy to do if you avoid shelters and hostels. I'm past the smokies so I don't plan to stay in any shelters. I am at equal risk to staying at home and hiking in a local park. If we do the 2 cars to hold food I could avoid towns for 2 months.
Two months of food in your car parked at trailheads? That's pretty good bait for bears. Just saying...
If you want to avoid towns entirely, you'll also have to figure out how to take showers and do laundry at the trailheads. Hope there is a stream nearby to pump water out of.
SkeeterPee
04-10-2020, 12:57
Two months of food in your car parked at trailheads? That's pretty good bait for bears. Just saying...
If you want to avoid towns entirely, you'll also have to figure out how to take showers and do laundry at the trailheads. Hope there is a stream nearby to pump water out of.
I remember TV reports of bears breaking into cars for food in the 70's, but does that still happen now with modern locks? I have not seen those report in 40 years. We certainly do some washing at the car. But every week or two I would feel safe staying in motel. You can socially distant at motel.
gpburdelljr
04-10-2020, 13:54
I remember TV reports of bears breaking into cars for food in the 70's, but does that still happen now with modern locks? I have not seen those report in 40 years. We certainly do some washing at the car. But every week or two I would feel safe staying in motel. You can socially distant at motel.
I saw a film on TV once about bears breaking into cars in Yosemite. The bears would get would get their long claws under the rubber stripping around a back window, and pop the window out like it was nothing.
I remember TV reports of bears breaking into cars for food in the 70's, but does that still happen now with modern locks?
it happened a least once or twice in the area surrounding GSMNP a few years ago....
And in the same fashion as post 195 says...
SkeeterPee
04-10-2020, 16:28
it happened a least once or twice in the area surrounding GSMNP a few years ago....
Any in the same fashion as post 195 says...
The GSMN front country campgrounds say to lock your food in you vehicle, preferably in your trunk. I recall the same at SNP. Given the millions who visit the AT trailheads each year, I suspect many have some food. I wonder how often this happens. Also would a bear smell hiker food that is still in its packaging. Leaving trash might be more of scent.
The GSMN front country campgrounds say to lock your food in you vehicle, preferably in your trunk. I recall the same at SNP. Given the millions who visit the AT trailheads each year, I suspect many have some food. I wonder how often this happens. Also would a bear smell hiker food that is still in its packaging. Leaving trash might be more of scent.
yeah...
and i think (like big creek) that some of the front county campgrounds have metal boxes for storage.....or at least they used to...
but, if one google bear breaking into car in GSMNP, theres a few videos...
some, of course, are from the gatlinburg area where there is more tourists and more trash....
im just saying, it does happen every now and then....
illabelle
04-11-2020, 08:04
I remember TV reports of bears breaking into cars for food in the 70's, but does that still happen now with modern locks? I have not seen those report in 40 years. We certainly do some washing at the car. But every week or two I would feel safe staying in motel. You can socially distant at motel.
It's not just bears. We left fresh clothes and food resupply in a rental car at a road crossing in Maine 2-3 years ago. When we arrived at the car just 4-5 days later, MICE had gotten into the trunk, chewed into the packaging, ruined some of the food, and pooped everywhere. They also got into the cabin of the car, pooping on the dash, seats, etc. Lovely little mess we had to clean up before returning the car. Fortunately we had enough food that we were able to continue our journey.
My suggestion, if you choose to leave food in your car, put it in bug-proof, mouse-proof containers. And then pray the bears don't know how to open the car. Depending on where you're going, you may not be in areas where bears are habituated to human food. Best of luck to you.
Slo-go'en
04-11-2020, 08:51
Even without food in my car, I have to put mouse traps in it in the fall, as the mice decide it's a nice place to live as the weather gets cold. It's also a good idea to look for nests in the engine air filter occasionally. Another problem is many late model cars use a soy based insulation on the electrical wiring (more environmentally friendly), but mice love to chew on it. If you leave your car parked at a trailhead for any length of time, you could come back to find the electrical system destroyed. Vermont used to have a big problem with porcupines chewing brake lines and tires.
Some may think this is early to discuss with so many suffering around the country, but I would hope we can still discuss what reopening the AT would look like even if it is a couple months before that happen. And I would hope the ATC is considering what it takes for them to issue an all clear. Or perhaps they won't even do that this year. It would be interesting to know their criteria. I hope they comment and send us all an email on their criteria like they did when the urged us to leave the trail.
If the ATC does not come out with a plan, then what is you criteria?
I think a lot of areas are probably still locked down until June or possibly longer. For me if local and state governments start easing restrictions and the federal governments open national parks/forests, then it would be time to restart the hike. They all don't need to open at the same time, I would stick to open areas. This would probably become a flip flop hike.
How the hike might look. I would still socially distance from other hikers avoiding shelters where legal. I was hiking with a group so I am thinking we take a couple cars and hike car to car where we could hold about 2 months supplies so we do no need to go to towns, other than to do laundry.
Anyone thinking about what would get you back on the trail?
The ATC for all the good it does and it does a massive amount of good work. I say that as a preface to my opinion below.
OPINION
For the most part the ATC, if given enough rope, would have the AT regulated in such a way as to make the PCT rules look nonexistent. The ATC as a group (not trying to call out anyone) treat the actual trail as something to look, but not to actually use to much. That said, I would expect the ATC to resist any "opening" of the AT for as long as possible, with recommendations of staying close the rest of 2020. So, while the ACT has no authority to regulate the trail. The question will be how much weight will the various authority’s give to the ATC’s Opinion?
This is where some of the ethical questions, will come in the near future. If the .gov “opens” the AT and the ATC say’s stay off. Then what?
Two good questions. You are not in danger if you are not within 6 feet of anyone. That is pretty easy to do if you avoid shelters and hostels. I'm past the smokies so I don't plan to stay in any shelters. I am at equal risk to staying at home and hiking in a local park. If we do the 2 cars to hold food I could avoid towns for 2 months.
(Sorry if my comment is repetitive, but the thread got too long for me to read every comment and as the OP I'd ask that you indulge me.)
Self-isolation - staying home except for essential reasons, and when outside the home wearing a mask - isn't related to whether or not you become infected. It's to stop the spread of the disease. If you pick up the virus you can unintentionally pass it to someone without knowing you're infected, or you could get sick and end up far from a hospital equipped to deal with your illness, or end up in an over-burdened hospital consuming scarce resources. The greater the patient load the less supplies they have available, putting everyone in a risky situation in terms of infection control.
It's not about you. It's about the people around you. Health care workers and the sick are begging people to stay home because they've seen how fast it spreads and how horrifying the illness is.
Over 2,100 Americans died of Covid yesterday. One month ago, on March 11, eight people died from it. Why did it spread so fast? Human behavior. And we can change that behavior to slow down the spread.
We don't know how long it will take to develop a vaccine, but until we are able to test everyone we will be on shaky ground. Even when that happens, though, we will still need to follow precautions.
You're not protected simply by staying six feet away from other people. Coronaviruses can live on surfaces for several days and since it's a new virus, there may be a lot we don't know about it yet. The six feet guideline is based on how close to someone who sneezes or coughs you have to be to be in the direct line of their respiratory droplets. More importantly, many others are not protected if you don't follow the recommendations to stop the spread of the virus.
This situation won't last forever, but it will go on longer than needed if folks don't modify their behavior.
kevperro
04-11-2020, 13:07
All of our trailheads are shut down. As crowded as the AT gets I think the responsible thing to do is wait. Thru-hiking the AT is not a solitary experience. It is a social one.
SkeeterPee
04-11-2020, 16:20
Ruth, IM not sure you read my post at all. This is about after the states and parks are open.
SkeeterPee
04-11-2020, 16:25
All of our trailheads are shut down. As crowded as the AT gets I think the responsible thing to do is wait. Thru-hiking the AT is not a solitary experience. It is a social one. That I a personal choice of how you hike the AT It is very easy to avoid crowds. Many days I have only seen one or two people all day. It is far more solitary than hikes on local trails. I've done 650 miles of the trail.
That I a personal choice of how you hike the AT It is very easy to avoid crowds. Many days I have only seen one or two people all day. It is far more solitary than hikes on local trails. I've done 650 miles of the trail.
Hiking a week or two presents certain challenges, but nothing close to those presented by a 6 month thru hike.
One of those that come to mind is what a thru hiker should do if he or she comes down with a stomach bug. Or a bit of a sore throat.
What would you do if you found yourself in the middle a six month hike and were in that position?
What would you do if those symptoms became progressively worse?
No simple path if you ar in the middle of a thru hike many hundreds of miles from home, right?
Be aware of non-truths being spread, 2 weeks ago we were walking a very popular beach in R.I. and there were maybe 6 people in the 3 miles we walked - the very next day they closed the beach due to overcrowding - another trail that I frequently mountain bike was also closed with zero people seen in the last 3 weeks.
SkeeterPee
04-11-2020, 19:22
Hiking a week or two presents certain challenges, but nothing close to those presented by a 6 month thru hike.
One of those that come to mind is what a thru hiker should do if he or she comes down with a stomach bug. Or a bit of a sore throat.
What would you do if you found yourself in the middle a six month hike and were in that position?
What would you do if those symptoms became progressively worse?
No simple path if you ar in the middle of a thru hike many hundreds of miles from home, right?
I've been sick away from home many times. You get a hotel room and if needed get to an urgent care Dr, same thing you might do at home.
Slo-go'en
04-11-2020, 20:15
Getting sick on the trail. Yep, been there done that. Bunch of times. Once I could have died. Can get expensive, even for a mild case of the generic flu.
If say you were to test positive for COVID-19 and recover, then you'd be of no further risk to yourself or others and should have no qualms about thru hiking. This is not an approach I'd like to take on purpose.
There is a good chance I will catch the nasty thing at some point, but when I do I want it to be at home where I can better deal with it. My little town of 300, in the middle of a national forest and 4 miles by trail to the AT, now has a dot on the COVID-19 map, so no where is safe.
Emerson Bigills
04-11-2020, 20:31
At this point in time, I don't think it is a very good idea to be out there. However, I suspect within 4-6 weeks things will start to ease up a bit and if hikers practice social distancing and stay away from shelter areas, being on the trail is as acceptable as being any where else. When they go into towns they need to get their business done and move along. If a hiker is practicing the right behaviors, they are probably a lot less of a threat (once they have been out for a couple weeks) in town than most any one else. Thru hiking in 2020 will be a very tough experience. Lots of "me" time and probably need some thick skin.
gpburdelljr
04-11-2020, 21:14
If say you were to test positive for COVID-19 and recover, then you'd be of no further risk to yourself or others and should have no qualms about thru hiking. This is not an approach I'd like to take on purpose.
The medical experts don’t know yet if you are immune after getting it once.
I've been sick away from home many times. You get a hotel room and if needed get to an urgent care Dr, same thing you might do at home.
My guess is that each time you got sick away from home in the past, you did not check yourself into a hotel room at the first opportunity after you experienced a tummy ache or a scratchy throat or a bit of a cough or fever much less isolate yourself in that hotel room for two weeks or more.
You probably powered through your distress for a good while first, and then checked out within a day of feeling better, right?
Not a good plan these days.
Slo-go'en
04-11-2020, 22:09
The medical experts don’t know yet if you are immune after getting it once.
True, but your probably good for a least a while afterwards and having made a supply of antibodies, if your are exposed again you should be able to fight it off quicker.
SkeeterPee
04-11-2020, 22:19
My guess is that each time you got sick away from home in the past, you did not check yourself into a hotel room at the first opportunity after you experienced a tummy ache or a scratchy throat or a bit of a cough or fever much less isolate yourself in that hotel room for two weeks or more.
You probably powered through your distress for a good while first, and then checked out within a day of feeling better, right?
Not a good plan these days.
Do you understand my original post? I am not going out there until parks reopen. That's probably not happening for at least a month.
I already hike legally under our lock down and socially distance while hiking. That will be 20 times easier on the AT.
Do you plan to never leave your house in the next 5 -10 years (normal time to create a vaccine)? If not then practice social distancing and go out when allowed.
kevperro
04-11-2020, 23:34
That I a personal choice of how you hike the AT It is very easy to avoid crowds. Many days I have only seen one or two people all day. It is far more solitary than hikes on local trails. I've done 650 miles of the trail.
I did 1200 miles of it back in 1994. It was crowded then.
Hey... I hike every week. I move and planned my life around living in a place where I could hike every week. I get it.... I bend the rules too.
Just don't do something that brings other people at risk. It isn't honorable.
SkeeterPee
04-11-2020, 23:57
I did 1200 miles of it back in 1994. It was crowded then.
Hey... I hike every week. I move and planned my life around living in a place where I could hike every week. I get it.... I bend the rules too.
Just don't do something that brings other people at risk. It isn't honorable.
I started in the winter to avoid crowds. When I restart it will be done to avoid crows. I am not bending any rules. Social distance exercise is encouraged in my state and all the state parks are open.
For the most part the ATC, if given enough rope, would have the AT regulated in such a way as to make the PCT rules look nonexistent. The ATC as a group (not trying to call out anyone) treat the actual trail as something to look, but not to actually use to much. That said, I would expect the ATC to resist any "opening" of the AT for as long as possible, with recommendations of staying close the rest of 2020. So, while the ACT has no authority to regulate the trail. The question will be how much weight will the various authority’s give to the ATC’s Opinion?
This is where some of the ethical questions, will come in the near future. If the .gov “opens” the AT and the ATC say’s stay off. Then what?
I get this impression from them as well. They've already petitioned the Dept of Interior to shut the entire trail down. It's overreach imo.
futureatwalker
04-12-2020, 05:58
At this point in time, I don't think it is a very good idea to be out there. However, I suspect within 4-6 weeks things will start to ease up a bit and if hikers practice social distancing and stay away from shelter areas, being on the trail is as acceptable as being any where else. When they go into towns they need to get their business done and move along. If a hiker is practicing the right behaviors, they are probably a lot less of a threat (once they have been out for a couple weeks) in town than most any one else. Thru hiking in 2020 will be a very tough experience. Lots of "me" time and probably need some thick skin.
I think that this is a good take on things. Perhaps some part of the season can be salvaged, but it will be different.
Do you understand my original post?
Was it the one about your idea of hiking car to car and the criteria for reopening the trail?
i thought that was thought provoking.
My comment had more to do with how hiking the Trail as a thruhiker (without such an elaborate support system) is more problematic than hiking it for shorter trips.
We are probably more on the same page than not — like almost everybody seems to me.
I am struggling with the idea that a loop or out and back trip will also be considered problematic for a long time to come — seems far more reasonable in areas that allow off trail camping.
Edit: Changed to read “areas that allow off trail camping” to keep out of rabbit hole.
Slo-go'en
04-12-2020, 08:18
I am struggling with the idea that a loop or out and back trip will also be considered problematic for a long time to come — seems far more reasonable in areas that encourage off trail camping, like the Whites.
The Whites are set up well for day hiking and loops. Off trail camping, not so much - unless you mean in a motel. We'll have to see how many motels and campgrounds decide to open this summer. Just because the curve of infections is flatting, doesn't mean the virus is going away. It just means less people are getting sick all at once.
Any overnight hikes I do this summer will likely be in the wilderness areas, since that's where most of the trails I still need to red line are located. I'll avoid the popular trails out of the notches. I did pretty much every trail out of Crawford this winter anyway.
GolfHiker
04-12-2020, 10:59
Direct link to the letter (https://34d9q31w7ubkusayp1ojyti4-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2020-04-01-ANST-Closure-Request-UPDATED.pdf) from the ATC and Trail Clubs to the Departments of Interior and Agriculture, National Park Service, and Forest Service.
Alligator. Thanks for sharing this link. I’ve seen no follow up on this letter/request from the ATC, either on WB or from the ATC.
Have I missed something? Can you please update. Thank you.
How are you putting others at risk when individuals take risk each and every day. We must choose our own level of comfort. If I chose to hike the trail or go to the store during the Wuhan virus scare, that is my choice. Those that are hiking take the INDIVIDUAL risk of hiking. Just because someone else gets a warm and fuzzy feeling telling others how they personally should live is ridiculous. Okay, let's play this nonsense out. "Today I saw a bear on the trail near Hot Springs!" "Don't go there!" "Call the ATC and ask them to support stoping hikers from that area until a bear expert can give us the all-clear"....or, we as individuals can make the choices for ourselves knowing there was a bear spotted on the trail.
People hike the trail each and every day with some kind of common cold or flu virus not knowing initially they have it. Should we stop hikers from hiking because there MIGHT be a risk? Of course not. Same with the Wuhan virus. Let the individual hiker assume his or her own choice and if they feel comfortable with the risk.
The ATC closing their offices at Amicalola Falls State Park is silly. They are doing nothing except making themselves feel warm and fuzzy.
:banana:banana:banana:banana:banana:banana:banana
TexasBob
04-12-2020, 12:24
At this point in time, I don't think it is a very good idea to be out there. However, I suspect within 4-6 weeks things will start to ease up a bit ............
Goes back to the question of how will you be able to tell when it is safe be out and about. People talk about herd immunity being able to stop the epidemic spread of coronavirus and that occurs when 50-60% of the population has immunity to the virus after having had the virus. I think that will be way longer than a month or two. Yesterday a total of some 530,000 people have tested positive. The population of folks over the age of 5 (school age and above) is about 300,000,000. Even taking into account that only a small number of folks have been tested and the possibility of 5-25% of folks who have the virus being asymptomatic, we are still a long, long way from 150,000,000 to 180,000,000 (50-60% of the population) being immune to the virus and achieving anything like herd immunity.
Slo-go'en
04-12-2020, 14:23
If you can avoid catching the CV-19 over the next 2-3 years, you'll be really lucky. If history is any indication, that will be about how long it will take for this strain to run it's course and it will come in several waves. In 4-6 weeks it will be looking like it's easing up, people get lax about groups and distance and the cycle repeats. For the foreseeable future, you go out, roll the dice and take your chances.
Traveler
04-12-2020, 14:49
Goes back to the question of how will you be able to tell when it is safe be out and about. People talk about herd immunity being able to stop the epidemic spread of coronavirus and that occurs when 50-60% of the population has immunity to the virus after having had the virus. I think that will be way longer than a month or two. Yesterday a total of some 530,000 people have tested positive. The population of folks over the age of 5 (school age and above) is about 300,000,000. Even taking into account that only a small number of folks have been tested and the possibility of 5-25% of folks who have the virus being asymptomatic, we are still a long, long way from 150,000,000 to 180,000,000 (50-60% of the population) being immune to the virus and achieving anything like herd immunity.
Agreed. We have tested less than 0.3% of the population, which some seem to feel is ok to make decisions on. However, ethically, without better testing data we really can't do a heck of a lot with any degree of certainty. Conversely, there are always profit minded people who encourage a short-cut of ethics to meet their own ends. For this reason, organizations like the ATC will take positions that many do not like, or perhaps do not understand, to relieve individuals of having to make difficult decisions that many may not agree with to provide continuity and reduce the arguments these decisions ignite when made individually. In my view, the ATC and its Chapters has done a good job doing what they can to help protect trail users and communities the trail goes through from unnecessary risk of exposure to an illness with no cure, no treatment, and no prevention outside of social distancing.
All this will eventually pass, until then patience is the operative word.
swjohnsey
04-12-2020, 16:11
If you can avoid catching the CV-19 over the next 2-3 years, you'll be really lucky. If history is any indication, that will be about how long it will take for this strain to run it's course and it will come in several waves. In 4-6 weeks it will be looking like it's easing up, people get lax about groups and distance and the cycle repeats. For the foreseeable future, you go out, roll the dice and take your chances.
We have a little to go on. The Spanish flu infected around 25%. We can guess that just about everyone was exposed. On the Diamond Princess cruise ship we can assume everyone was exposed in the two weeks infected passengers circulated freely on the ship before it was quarantined and 19% became infected.
Alligator
04-12-2020, 19:04
Alligator. Thanks for sharing this link. I’ve seen no follow up on this letter/request from the ATC, either on WB or from the ATC.
Have I missed something? Can you please update. Thank you.I haven't seen or heard anything where the officials have responded to the request.
SkeeterPee
04-12-2020, 19:11
Agreed. We have tested less than 0.3% of the population, which some seem to feel is ok to make decisions on. However, ethically, without better testing data we really can't do a heck of a lot with any degree of certainty. Conversely, there are always profit minded people who encourage a short-cut of ethics to meet their own ends. For this reason, organizations like the ATC will take positions that many do not like, or perhaps do not understand, to relieve individuals of having to make difficult decisions that many may not agree with to provide continuity and reduce the arguments these decisions ignite when made individually. In my view, the ATC and its Chapters has done a good job doing what they can to help protect trail users and communities the trail goes through from unnecessary risk of exposure to an illness with no cure, no treatment, and no prevention outside of social distancing.
All this will eventually pass, until then patience is the operative word.
No one can give a good answer why they think we need widespread testing. You could test every person and the next week some of them would have caught the virus. The experts are recommending doing contact tracing / testing which makes sense. Once you do that you can open some business and low risk activities. Large group events will not likely occur until treatments are available.
Traveler
04-13-2020, 07:38
Agreed about contact/trace testing, a primary cog in the gears of containment. Unfortunately we are currently in mitigation phase and not even close to C/T testing currently since there is no national testing platform and supply chain to support it for whatever reasons. Until we have that capability, we won't know who has been exposed or is carrying illness and what potential infections were left in their wake.
Testing aside, hiking ethics it is an issue we all have to address on a personal level. Are we simple wayfarers incapable of carrying disease and spreading it unknowingly among those we pass on the trail, or are we a necessary instrument of this viral illness and a real danger to other people along the trail and trail towns. Some rationalize this illness as being a common risk hazard of life and presume all they come in contact with has made the choice to accept, much as we would accept the risk of driving a car. Others see it as a duty to protect the health of those around them and not engage in activities that expose others unnecessarily. Personal ethics help define which gradient line one falls on between the extremes.
AsoloBootsSuk
04-13-2020, 09:50
Covid-20 is coming and should not be underestimated. It manifests itself as fatigue and malaise. It's caused by the 20 pounds you've gained waiting out Covid-19. The good news, body mass index testing already exists
TexasBob
04-13-2020, 09:55
No one can give a good answer why they think we need widespread testing. You could test every person and the next week some of them would have caught the virus. The experts are recommending doing contact tracing / testing which makes sense. Once you do that you can open some business and low risk activities. Large group events will not likely occur until treatments are available.
Depends on which type of testing you are talking about. Testing for the virus and doing contact tracing is intended to halt the epidemic. Antibody testing to see if a person is likely immune to the virus is a different thing altogether. If you have antibodies to the virus then thru hiking the AT would likely not pose a danger to you or anyone you come in contact with and solves the ethical dilemma of whether you should hike or not. Beyond that the widespread testing for antibodies against the virus would allow those who are likely immune to resume normal life.
SkeeterPee
04-13-2020, 11:59
Depends on which type of testing you are talking about. Testing for the virus and doing contact tracing is intended to halt the epidemic. Antibody testing to see if a person is likely immune to the virus is a different thing altogether. If you have antibodies to the virus then thru hiking the AT would likely not pose a danger to you or anyone you come in contact with and solves the ethical dilemma of whether you should hike or not. Beyond that the widespread testing for antibodies against the virus would allow those who are likely immune to resume normal life.
We do not have an approved antibody test yet. We don't even know that you can't get the disease more than once or how long antibodies might last. So the test they are talking about is the test to see if you have a current infection. The CDC is right that we do not need wide spread testing as in everyone (350 million) is tested. We need tests so anyone feeling ill can be tested quickly and we need tests for all their contacts. That is not that many more tests than we have today and hopefully we can get those 15 minute tests to every clinic in the country soon. Many have the machine already.
FreeGoldRush
04-13-2020, 12:03
The other coronaviruses (SARS, MERS and the others less mentioned in the news) gave one immunity for months to 3 years. It’s not quite that simple but the short answer is that you don’t have immunity for long.
If you have antibodies to the virus then thru hiking the AT would likely not pose a danger to you or anyone you come in contact with and solves the ethical dilemma of whether you should hike or not.
It would not solve the ethical issue at all.
If you get injured or sick on the trail, which happens all the time, you may very well require a litter carry and 8 or more rescuers to bail you out. That's a minimum of 4 people at a time being huddled around each other, breathing hard in each others faces. Many of these people are first responders in the small trail towns they live, where they're either likely to be exposed to COVID-19 already or if they get exposed will be likely to transmit it to vulnerable people they work with. You're also then possibly occupying valuable health resources in a rural town that might be already overwhelmed by the virus, especially if you require a hospital.
This is one of those times where we can all either choose to be part of the problem or part of the solution. Not being able to go for a hike is hardly a hardship worthy of risking the health and life of others over, but some people seem to think their fun and "personal freedom" is all that matters and life should not ever be inconvenient for them.
Slo-go'en
04-13-2020, 13:12
At this point, anyone "feeling ill" should assume they have the COVID-19, stay home and tell everyone they might have been in contact with in the last few days. It's possible you got it from one of them or you gave it to one of them.
The test currently isn't accurate early on, but weeding out those who are far enough along to test positive and getting them to self isolate ASAP is important. By the time you notice your ill, you've probably been infectious for 3-4 days prior. Then there are those who don't have any real symptoms, yet are breeding the virus. These people need to be identified. But to be effective, everyone would need to be tested on a frequent, rotating basis. Just because you didn't test positive one day doesn't mean you won't a few days later. That's a daunting task at all levels. Without a coordinated, nation wide system already in place, even more daunting.
Oaky, you might not have to test everyone, but a targeted sample group in each community such as the service workers with a lot of public exposure. If a hot spot emerges, then wide spread testing is done to contain the outbreak. although this has to be preformed locally, it still needs national coordination and funding. The virus respects no artificial boarders and there are a lot of hot spots now.
Noon time break in the rain - time for a walk - Later...
....
If you get injured or sick on the trail, which happens all the time, you may very well require a litter carry and 8 or more rescuers to bail you out.
....
Thats one of the reasons why here in Austria it's highly recommended to stay and walk near your home only, and a total no-go to go out for adventurous trips.
The rescue switched to airlifting exclusively, thus reducing the number of people getting in close contact with the victim.
SkeeterPee
04-13-2020, 15:09
It would not solve the ethical issue at all.
If you get injured or sick on the trail, which happens all the time, you may very well require a litter carry and 8 or more rescuers to bail you out. That's a minimum of 4 people at a time being huddled around each other, breathing hard in each others faces. Many of these people are first responders in the small trail towns they live, where they're either likely to be exposed to COVID-19 already or if they get exposed will be likely to transmit it to vulnerable people they work with. You're also then possibly occupying valuable health resources in a rural town that might be already overwhelmed by the virus, especially if you require a hospital.
This is one of those times where we can all either choose to be part of the problem or part of the solution. Not being able to go for a hike is hardly a hardship worthy of risking the health and life of others over, but some people seem to think their fun and "personal freedom" is all that matters and life should not ever be inconvenient for them.
I don't want this to sound augmentative, but are you planning to go anywhere when the country reopens? Or will you stay home for how ever many years this takes to resolve? it may be several years. If you go out for any number of reasons bad things could occur where you will you will expose others to possible threats. That is far more likely than a hiker getting injured and putting people at risk. Your fears are not based on reasonable risks.
TexasBob
04-13-2020, 16:52
We do not have an approved antibody test yet. ..........
Yes we do. https://www.biospace.com/article/fda-approves-1st-covid-19-antibody-test/
TexasBob
04-13-2020, 17:01
It would not solve the ethical issue at all.
If you get injured or sick on the trail, which happens all the time, you may very well require a litter carry and 8 or more rescuers to bail you out. That's a minimum of 4 people at a time being huddled around each other, breathing hard in each others faces. Many of these people are first responders in the small trail towns they live, where they're either likely to be exposed to COVID-19 already or if they get exposed will be likely to transmit it to vulnerable people they work with. You're also then possibly occupying valuable health resources in a rural town that might be already overwhelmed by the virus, especially if you require a hospital.
This is one of those times where we can all either choose to be part of the problem or part of the solution. Not being able to go for a hike is hardly a hardship worthy of risking the health and life of others over, but some people seem to think their fun and "personal freedom" is all that matters and life should not ever be inconvenient for them.
You make some good points about using resources in rural areas if you get injured. My point was that if you are likely immune to the virus you would not be spreading it or getting ill from it on the trail. I agree with you that now isn't the time to be on the AT and the best thing to do is stay home for everybody's health.
colorado_rob
04-13-2020, 17:53
It would not solve the ethical issue at all.
If you get injured or sick on the trail, which happens all the time.... Well, actually not. It is pretty rare that any sort of a rescue is needed off of most trails. I don't disagree with the rest of what you say, just this point, which is a real stretch IMO.
Slo-go'en
04-13-2020, 18:04
Well, actually not. It is pretty rare that any sort of a rescue is needed off of most trails. I don't disagree with the rest of what you say, just this point, which is a real stretch IMO.
I don't know. It seems to happen frequently in Georgia at the start of the season with inexperienced newbies and it's almost a weekly occurrence here in the Whites during the busy summer season. Although ATV crashes are becoming more common. 3-4 of those every weekend like clock work.
colorado_rob
04-13-2020, 19:44
I don't know. It seems to happen frequently in Georgia at the start of the season with inexperienced newbies and it's almost a weekly occurrence here in the Whites during the busy summer season. Although ATV crashes are becoming more common. 3-4 of those every weekend like clock work. I should modify my remark to only include "somewhat" experienced hikers. What I mean by this is that if you ignore the complete-rookie-weekend-warriors, those that basically don't know what they are doing and have no gear to handle any sort of trail difficulty, I bet excluding those folks the number of required rescues is very small and rare on established trails.
SkeeterPee
04-13-2020, 19:55
Yes we do. https://www.biospace.com/article/fda-approves-1st-covid-19-antibody-test/ Thanks, missed that.
I don't want this to sound augmentative, but are you planning to go anywhere when the country reopens? Or will you stay home for how ever many years this takes to resolve? it may be several years. If you go out for any number of reasons bad things could occur where you will you will expose others to possible threats. That is far more likely than a hiker getting injured and putting people at risk. Your fears are not based on reasonable risks.
I think right now the only thing we all can do on an individual level is minimize the risk and damage. A hike on rugged terrain, that does not lend itself to an easy rescue should one thing go wrong, is certainly an unnecessary risk at this point in time.
It's not about me or any one person. The real risk often doesn't lie in just one person making one risky choice (although it can), but in many people inevitably following and making the same risky choice. Eventually the odds catch up and worst case scenarios become reality.
Right now the ethical choice seems pretty obvious, stay home!
I can't predict the future, but we're only a couple months into a deadly viral pandemic, once things settle and our experience and knowledge of the situation grows, I'm optimistic that making the "right" choices will become a little more clear cut. Right now though I honestly don't think anyone knows how all of this will play out.
I still plan on hiking, but it'll be on mellow local spots and likely while everyone else is still sleeping. The mountains will still be there when this is over. Hopefully sooner rather than later
4eyedbuzzard
04-14-2020, 00:00
...Right now the ethical choice seems pretty obvious, stay home! Ethics is rarely as obvious as it initially seems, nor are the choices. If it were, we wouldn't invest so much time and energy on the subject.
The mountains will still be there when this is over. Hopefully sooner rather than laterMuch easier for someone 28 years old to say than someone 68. How long should people wait patiently? A couple months, a couple years, an eternity? Just food for thought.
You make some good points about using resources in rural areas if you get injured. My point was that if you are likely immune to the virus you would not be spreading it or getting ill from it on the trail. I agree with you that now isn't the time to be on the AT and the best thing to do is stay home for everybody's health.
Sorry if I came off harsh at all, I definitely have some pent up stress lately
Hopefully an antibody test becomes widely available so people can determine if they're immune or not, I feel like that would really help to kickstart the recovery of the trail (along with pretty much everything else).
Even so though, depending on the terrain hiking is a risky activity and rescues typically don't mesh well with social distancing and even proper PPE. Will first responders and rescue crews/volunteers in the future need to test positive for antibodies to work in the field?
Ethics textbooks of the future will be able to draw plenty of sample examples from this pandemic, there's a whole lot of grey area all around.
Ethics is rarely obvious, nor are the choices.
Much easier for someone 28 years old to say than someone 68. How long should people wait patiently? A couple months, a couple years, an eternity? Just food for thought.
"Stay home" was a bad word choice on my part, stay local would be more appropriate.
As someone who works in healthcare, I'm well aware that ethical dilemmas are often not black and white, but I certainly wouldn't say that the ethical choice is "rarely obvious".
Admittedly knowledge and experience can help make navigating difficult ethical decisions a whole lot more manageable, and quarantines due to viral pandemics are new to all of us, so ethics in many areas will likely be tricky for the foreseeable future.
No one knows the exact right course of action, but it does seem like all the information points towards social distancing and risk mitigation being the best things to do in order to save lives, for right now at least.
As far as age is concerned, I'd like to think that when I'm 68 I'll still put the lives and health of others before my desire to go hiking.
SkeeterPee
04-14-2020, 01:29
"Stay home" was a bad word choice on my part, stay local would be more appropriate.
As someone who works in healthcare, I'm well aware that ethical dilemmas are often not black and white, but I certainly wouldn't say that the ethical choice is "rarely obvious".
Admittedly knowledge and experience can help make navigating difficult ethical decisions a whole lot more manageable, and quarantines due to viral pandemics are new to all of us, so ethics in many areas will likely be tricky for the foreseeable future.
No one knows the exact right course of action, but it does seem like all the information points towards social distancing and risk mitigation being the best things to do in order to save lives, for right now at least.
As far as age is concerned, I'd like to think that when I'm 68 I'll still put the lives and health of others before my desire to go hiking.
The problem is you are way over estimating the risks of hiking and saying it is obvious that it should not be allowed in a couple months when the country reopens. I tried to show you the hypocrisy of this but you would not answer. I am sure there are many things you are doing equally non-essential. Are you going to buy anything at the grocery or on Amazon that is non-essential? Are you going to drive anywhere that is not essential? Are you continuing your local hikes? All of these non-essential activities put more people at risk so according to you they are unethical. Are you going to stop non-essential activities? If not perhaps you need to stop saying other people's activities are unethical.
Traffic Jam
04-14-2020, 09:17
What I find most distressful about this situation is the social implication and how people are turning on each other, snitching on their neighbors, condemning each other on social media, friends treating friends with censure and disapproval, backlash and righteous indignation when people don’t agree.
Let’s all try to be a little more respectful of each other.
:)
TexasBob
04-14-2020, 09:20
Thanks, missed that.
So much information out there that it is hard to keep up. I spend too much time reading about this stuff because I am stuck at home and I don't have enough to do. :)
Sorry if I came off harsh at all, I definitely have some pent up stress lately.......
I didn't take it that way so no need to apologize.