Miss Nature Shoots Me The Bird: 18 Days in Snowbird Wilderness

[Tipi Walter]

Alternate Trip Titles:
I Turn 70 With A 95 Lb Pack
78 Creek Crossings: The Cleanest Feet in North Carolina

I leave home at 85F and get to Hooper Bald (5,430 feet) in NC at 64F---it's my festive welcome to Trip 205 and Snowbird wilderness.

All trip pics can be found here---
https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/

MISS NATURE
SHOOTS ME
THE BIRD
TRIP 205
June 26--July 13, 2020

HIGHLIGHTS
** 18 DAYS IN SNOWBIRD WILDERNESS
** 78 CREEK CROSSINGS: THE CLEANEST FEET IN NORTH CAROLINA
** 18 DAYS WITHOUT A SMARTPHONE
** I TURN 70 WITH A 95LB PACK
** 3 DAYS ON TRAIL 154
** 12 DAYS ON SNOWBIRD CREEK
** 7 CONSERVATION CORPS NC IN SASSAFRAS CAMP
** 3 DAYS ON KING'S MEADOW TRAIL
** PATMAN MEETS ME ON SNOWBIRD CREEK
** HAW MT BACKPACK
** BACKPACKING BUDDY GONZAN POPS IN ON WHIGGS MEADOW
** BACKPACKING BUDDY BRYAN DELAY PASSES THRU COLD GAP
** BMT THRUHIKER BRAD GIBSON IN COLD GAP

TRAILS
Entrance at Hooper Bald
Hooper Trail/King's Meadow Trail(gravel road) Down
Trail 154 Heading Southwest
**154 Grass Camp**
Trail 154 Down
**154 Cove Camp**
Trail 154 to Snowbird Creek Jct
Snowbird Creek Trail Down
**Crossing 7 Camp**
Snowbird Creek Trail Down
**Middle Falls Camp**
Snowbird Creek Trail Up 1 Crossing
Burnt Rock Trail Up and Over
**Sassafras Creek Secret Camp**
Sassafras Creek Trail Down
Snowbird Creek Trail Down to Junction and King's Meadow Trail
**Owlcamp Footbridge Camp**
King's Meadow Trail Up
**Deep Gap**
King's Meadow Trail Up
Trail 154 Southwest to Snowbird Creek Jct
Snowbird Creek Trail Up
**Little Bird Camp**
Snowbird Creek Trail Down 13 Crossings
**Burnt Rock/South Bank Camp**
Burnt Rock Trail Up to Ridge
**Burnt Rock Ridge Camp**
Burnt Rock Trail Down to Sassafras Creek
Sassafras Creek Down
Snowbird Creek Trail Up to Footbridge
**Mouse Knob Creek Camp by Footbridge**
Snowbird 64A Alternate Trail
Snowbird Creek Trail Up
**Meadow Branch Camp**
Snowbird Creek Trail Up 11 Crossings
**Little Bird Camp**
Snowbird Creek Trail Down 6 Crossings
**Camp 7**
Snowbird Creek Trail Up 6 Crossings
Trail 154 Heading Northeast Up
**154 Cove Camp**
Trail 154 Up
Old King's Meadow In-The-Woods Trail Up to Hooper Bald
Skyturd Roadwalk from Hooper Bald to Big Junction
Haw Mt Trail Up and Over
BMT/Mud Gap Trail to Whiggs Meadow
**Whiggs Meadow Camp**
BMT/Mud Gap Trail Down
Skyway BMT to Beech Gap
BMT North to Cold Spring Gap
**Cold Gap Camp**
BMT South to Beech Gap
Skywad Roadwalk to Jeffrey Hell Trailhead and OUT.


https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-t5g5nzw/0/b1e551fa/M/Trip%20205%20%2818%29-M.jpg
All trips start with a map and this one is from the Hooper Bald kiosk where I start my trip going down 63 and cutting southwest down 154 to Snowbird Creek.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-mTQVWvf/0/f5f932df/XL/Trip%20205%20%2812%29-XL.jpg
After dropping off Hooper Bald I get to this trailpost on Trail 154 and so begins my June/July adventure.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-WBNc3cf/0/fcf00c32/XL/Trip%20205%20%283%29-XL.jpg
Before the trip I steamed up a bunch of sweet potatoes (and red potatoes) and dehydrated them to mix in my quinoa backpacking meals.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-nghQ7Sk/0/f169dc0b/XL/Trip%20205%20%2831%29-XL.jpg
I finish Trail 154 to where it junctions Snowbird Creek Trail 64 and head downstream 6 crossings to a campsite and another 5 crossings to Middle Falls.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-MsZbT47/0/8f95e2c0/XL/Trip%20205%20%2840%29-XL.jpg
This is Crossing #4 from 154 jct---one of 78 total creek crossings I do on this trip. Snowbird Creek itself has exactly 25 creek crossings from top to bottom---or 11-12 crossings if you take the 64A detour trail around Middle Falls.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-LjFt2xP/0/be3cc5bd/XL/Trip%20205%20%2845%29-XL.jpg
After 6 crossings in crocs I reach Camp 7 (right next to crossing 7) and set up my 8 lb 10oz Hilleberg Keron 3 tent---a perfect solo backpacking tent.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-g83JrWb/0/b2326e35/XL/Trip%20205%20%2874%29-XL.jpg
I leave Camp 7 and pull 5 more creek crossings down to Middle Falls where I set up the tent right on the trail by the falls.

[Tipi Walter]

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-gfFzXJ3/0/f9dd81af/XL/Trip%20205%20%2877%29-XL.jpg
Here's my campsite right next to Middle Falls (visible on left) and right next to tSnowbird Creek trail.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-9pXcsrF/0/1b7065c3/XL/Trip%20205%20%2886%29-XL.jpg
I leave Middle Falls and immediately cross Snowbird Creek right above the falls---I barely make it across as it's a treacherous crossing and my pack is still around 90 lbs---and get on the south bank of the creek and the start up Burnt Rock Ridge trail---a moderately easy hump up and over to Sassafras Creek.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-vR5XcdM/0/5ca2f6eb/XL/Trip%20205%20%28101%29-XL.jpg
Burnt Rock Ridge trail drops hard to Sassafras Creek where I run into 7 trail crew member of Conservation Corps NC out for 3 weeks to work area trails. This is Silas, trip leader. They "got my spot" but I went up Sassafras Creek a ways and found a nice level spot next to the creek.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-V2F5bKR/0/6bb3250d/XL/Trip%20205%20%28103%29-XL.jpg
This is some of the crew's food load---makes my 18 day food supply look small.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-xtK6z9D/0/388ab38a/XL/Trip%20205%20%28122%29-XL.jpg
I leave my Sassafras Creek "secret" camp and tool down Sassafras Creek trail where I run into these girls working the trail.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-LTcqZSv/0/c99b85ba/XL/Trip%20205%20%28126%29-XL.jpg
Sassafras Creek trail dumps me out on Snowbird Creek trail and I turn right and head downstream and have to croc-cross Sassafras Creek afterwhich I stop here to reboot. Every picture of every trip into the Birds has to include this jalopy.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-v7nfzdQ/0/cb111bdc/XL/Trip%20205%20%28140%29-XL.jpg
I reach the end of Snowbird Creek trail and start up King's Meadow trail which begins with this awesome steel footbridge over Bird Creek.

[Tipi Walter]

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-LmZPwjg/0/4e5a4cc9/XL/Trip%20205%20%28155%29-XL.jpg
Here's the magnificent King's Meadow footbridge---vital for backpackers as Snowbird Creek is big, high and raging this far down the valley.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-SQrVdpb/0/2743a789/XL/Trip%20205%20%28157%29-XL.jpg
Snowbird Creek as seen from the King's Meadow footbridge.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-Qq92h7b/0/c3b3ed33/XL/Trip%20205%20%28163%29-XL.jpg
King's Meadow trail is the nutbuster of the Birds and this one section is VERY STEEP altho my pic doesn't do it justice. It's straight up and fun with an 85-90 lb pack. Don't tumble backwards boys or you'll cartwheel off the mountain.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-TXWg67n/0/20895b50/XL/Trip%20205%20%28180%29-XL.jpg
After a tough hump up King's Meadow trail I reach Deep Gap where I set up the Keron tent in summer configuration with both fly vestibule ends lifted out of the way for better ventilation.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-g2dn4jk/0/45f0e174/XL/Trip%20205%20%28206%29-XL.jpg
Illegal ATV usage is rampant in the Birds and especially on King's Meadow trail. They do significant damage to the trails and of course add to more human noise pollution. It's in a wilderness study area but the Ranger district doesn't seem to care.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-ppkn26L/0/b6d0c0ca/XL/Trip%20205%20%28221%29-XL.jpg
I finish King's Meadow trail on a hard hump and return to Trail 154 all the way back to Snowbird Creek but instead of going down-creek I head up-creek to Little Bird Camp and the next day run into my backpacking buddy Patman who hiked 20 miles in the area looking for me. We have a grand reunion and hike together down 12 crossings to a South Bank camp above Middle Falls.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-NZ9qxkD/0/5b290d94/XL/Trip%20205%20%28226%29-XL.jpg
Here is Patman pulling Crossing #3 heading down Snowbird Creek trail.

[Tipi Walter]

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-dBh282M/0/0cd8a1d4/XL/Trip%20205%20%28244%29-XL.jpg
We reach a great CS and the next morning I find Patman in his TarpTent making breakfast. He shoves off on a 7 mile day back to his car on Hooper Bald and I return to Burnt Rock Ridge trail to camp.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-4d2KVxQ/0/78d7d14d/XL/Trip%20205%20%28258%29-XL.jpg
I leave Snowbird Creek in boots and climb to the top of Burnt Rock Ridge and set up camp at this pretty spot altho I stir up a yellow jacket nest and get popped on the right arm.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-qfwwCFq/0/c8d78729/XL/Trip%20205%20%28264%29-XL.jpg
As I prepare my CS on Burnt Rock Ridge I dislodge this hornet nest and it lands next to my tent but I move it away eventually.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-CKf2KHr/0/4f2afc3d/XL/Trip%20205%20%28276%29-XL.jpg
I leave Burnt Rock Ridge and return to Sassafras Creek and explore Sassafras Falls, a major landmark in the Birds.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-7TXWPWg/0/3dc84b56/XL/Trip%20205%20%28294%29-XL.jpg
After my Sassafras adventure I reach Bird Creek and turn left up-creek and reach this beautiful footbridge which leads into a big CS and I find a "secret" one next to Mouse Knob Creek.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-jbCCLkT/0/4cb8c029/XL/Trip%20205%20%28324%29-XL.jpg
I leave the wooden footbridge and hump up 64A detour which is dang steep and pass Middle Falls and get to Meadow Branch Camp where I find Little Jimmy on the trail and we talk.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-sfjXFNq/0/bd7f4515/XL/Trip%20205%20%28350%29-XL.jpg
After a night in Meadow Branch Camp I pull 5 crossings up Bird Creek and spend another night in Camp 7 during a big rainstorm which causes the creek to get muddy and high.

[Tipi Walter]

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-KLpN2pr/0/e6ca26fb/XL/Trip%20205%20%28382%29-XL.jpg
By Day 16 it's time to leave the Birds and so I climb up to Hooper Bald and connect to Haw Knob on a bushwack trail which pops me out on the Benton MacKaye trail at Whiggs Meadow. Here is the top of Haw Knob at 5,500 feet.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-5SLTKQD/0/24469e29/XL/Trip%20205%20%28384%29-XL.jpg
Once over Haw Knob I turn left and reach Whiggs Meadow at 5,000 feet where I set up camp and call it a day.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-9CKqdvp/0/7de43cd0/XL/Trip%20205%20%28408%29-XL.jpg
As luck would have it I catch an illegal motorcyclist riding past the FS bar gate and up to the top of Whiggs Meadow so I take a video of his malfeasance.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-PTGLzjQ/0/46a57394/XL/Trip%20205%20%28413%29-XL.jpg
While I'm up on the Whigg I run into my old backpacking buddy Gonzan out on a dayhike with his brothers.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-6GB8mZB/0/cf727758/XL/Trip%20205%20%28448%29-XL.jpg
I share my Whiggs Meadow CS with Alix and Drew---bike packers from Knoxville.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-9DjwPn9/0/9413f5ee/XL/Trip%20205%20%28403%29-XL.jpg
All squared away for a great night atop the Whigg.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-DjT5855/0/2189cc6b/XL/Trip%20205%20%28450%29-XL.jpg
I leave the Whigg on the BMT and in 7 miles I'm in Cold Spring Gap in Citico wilderness where I run into another old backpacking buddy Bryan DeLay and we talk for a couple hours about the Birds.

[Tipi Walter]

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-mtSsF9r/0/ff40fa86/XL/Trip%20205%20%28452%29-XL.jpg
While I'm camping in Cold Gap a BMT thruhiker comes in and I show him where to get water and he decides to camp in the gap. His name is Brad Gibson.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-39T5M3j/0/6716e9bf/XL/Trip%20205%20%28460%29-XL.jpg
All squared away in Cold Gap on the BMT. Check out my white silk "pajama" bottoms. And Brad's tent in the gap.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-9tj5pcz/0/be9280a7/XL/Trip%20205%20%28478%29-XL.jpg
I leave Cold Gap on a backtrack and reach Beech Gap for my evac exit pickup to end a great trip.

[JNI64]

Well happy belated birthday tipi! Thanks for sharing, the best trip reports and pics out there. Them falls look pretty awesome, nice camp spot right next to them. You needed them falls and 72 creek crossings to stay cool. What temps did you experience?

[TNhiker]

i guess that little sign in picture 23 replaced the handwritten sign that was on a white piece of foam core....

[TNhiker]

that memorial cross on whigg meadow----the time i stayed up there, the guy's friends were coming in and checking it out......

i was searching for firewood and ran across it and then turned around and there they were.......

[PatmanTN]

Great report! Wow, the brothers Gonzan and Bryan Delay, very cool!

[Tipi Walter]

Well happy belated birthday tipi! Thanks for sharing, the best trip reports and pics out there. Them falls look pretty awesome, nice camp spot right next to them. You needed them falls and 72 creek crossings to stay cool. What temps did you experience?

The Birds seem to be unique because the big mountains to the north (Haw, Hooper, Huckleberry---all around 5,600 feet)---seem to keep the furnace temps of the East TN valley out---so my entire trip never got hot and nights were cool to cold.


i guess that little sign in picture 23 replaced the handwritten sign that was on a white piece of foam core....

Yes, I didn't see the old Bird sign you're talking about---

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/Bald-River-Backcountry/i-x4CPPN8/0/ef4a449b/XL/Trip%20158%20354-XL.jpg


Great report! Wow, the brothers Gonzan and Bryan Delay, very cool!

Yes, I saw the whole crew. The last guy I saw, the BMT thruhiker---got really sick with bad water or food poisoning so he had to cancel out the rest of his hike.

[Five Tango]

Thanks for the inspiration Mr. Tipi Walter.I turn 68 next week and and doing good to go anywhere with a 30 pound load in winter,25 or so in summer.I don't know how you handle that pack but it's obvious you do it with Style.

[GreatDane]

Like Five Tango, as a 69 year old, about the max weight I can carry is 30 pounds in the winter and 25 in the summer. My biggest problem right now is that my beloved TarpTent has died. So I need a new tent, somewhere between Tipi's Hilleberg Keron 3 and Patman's TarpTent. In particular, I need something that will keep me warmer in cold windy weather than my old TarpTent, but won't make walking in the woods impossible. I've researched every tent I can think of, and some that I had never heard of, and have landed on either a Hilleberg Niak or Anjan 2 for the construction, space and weight, and the fact that they both are double walled tents that go up without having to erect the inner tent first. I'm leaning toward the Niak because of the smaller footprint. Given the price, it would probably have to be my last tent (and maybe passed on to my heirs when I die!). Any suggestions or other recommendations? Oh, and I am wildly claustrophobic, so some of the more popular light weight tents probably won't work for me.

[Tipi Walter]

Thanks for the inspiration Mr. Tipi Walter.I turn 68 next week and and doing good to go anywhere with a 30 pound load in winter,25 or so in summer.I don't know how you handle that pack but it's obvious you do it with Style.

The way I handle a long trip with a heavy pack is to do low mile days---but still moving every day and not sitting put in "basecamp" mode like a car camper. I can do about 5 good miles with a 90+lb pack and that's about my daily limit---although when the pack lightens to 75 lbs I can punch out 8 to 12 mile days. I've been carrying heavy packs for the last 40 years which I think really helps as the body gets used to such loads over a lifetime of doing it.


Like Five Tango, as a 69 year old, about the max weight I can carry is 30 pounds in the winter and 25 in the summer. My biggest problem right now is that my beloved TarpTent has died. So I need a new tent, somewhere between Tipi's Hilleberg Keron 3 and Patman's TarpTent. In particular, I need something that will keep me warmer in cold windy weather than my old TarpTent, but won't make walking in the woods impossible. I've researched every tent I can think of, and some that I had never heard of, and have landed on either a Hilleberg Niak or Anjan 2 for the construction, space and weight, and the fact that they both are double walled tents that go up without having to erect the inner tent first. I'm leaning toward the Niak because of the smaller footprint. Given the price, it would probably have to be my last tent (and maybe passed on to my heirs when I die!). Any suggestions or other recommendations? Oh, and I am wildly claustrophobic, so some of the more popular light weight tents probably won't work for me.

It's really about how much tent weight you're willing to carry. The bigger the more comfort you'll have---the smaller the more compromises etc.

The Niak is neato---
46615
The Anjan is like a tunnel and neato too---
46616
You could also research the new Anaris which uses two hiking poles and is very light. I almost bought one last month---although it's not a winter tent---

46617
For long term backpacking in the Southeast mountains a double wall tent is so much better than a single wall tent---for obvious reasons (rain misting, condensation etc).

And then there's the bugaboo of tent companies using stinky and unhealthy flame retardant chemicals in their tents---as Big Agnes does. Hilleberg does not which is a big plus to me.

[TwoSpirits]

Like Five Tango, as a 69 year old, about the max weight I can carry is 30 pounds in the winter and 25 in the summer. My biggest problem right now is that my beloved TarpTent has died. So I need a new tent, somewhere between Tipi's Hilleberg Keron 3 and Patman's TarpTent. In particular, I need something that will keep me warmer in cold windy weather than my old TarpTent, but won't make walking in the woods impossible. I've researched every tent I can think of, and some that I had never heard of, and have landed on either a Hilleberg Niak or Anjan 2 for the construction, space and weight, and the fact that they both are double walled tents that go up without having to erect the inner tent first. I'm leaning toward the Niak because of the smaller footprint. Given the price, it would probably have to be my last tent (and maybe passed on to my heirs when I die!). Any suggestions or other recommendations? Oh, and I am wildly claustrophobic, so some of the more popular light weight tents probably won't work for me.

I have lusted a bit for Helleberg tents, and may get one someday, but an excellent tent I have found in the meantime is made by Big Sky International. Double wall, simultaneous pitch, under 4lbs max, and bomb proof. I have their Revolution 2P, and a Chinook 2P. The Chinook is a good 4-season tent with a solid material inner, but you can order a mesh inner for it. Indeed, you can mix 'n match inner & outer tents with a couple of their models. Makes a great, versatile system. I love mine.

[Five Tango]

I gave up on tents about 20 years ago due to low back pain and went to hammocks.They are not for everybody,that much is for sure but it works for me down to about 25 degrees F.When the weather gets that cold I would rather stay home.

[GreatDane]

Thank you all for the great input. I'm still leaning hard toward the Hilleberg tents. I think I'll get all my gear out this weekend, cull what I can, and see how much more tent weight I realistically think I can carry. And, thank you Tipi for the info regarding flame retardant chemicals. I hadn't thought about that, and it would probably be a serious issue for me both ecologically and health wise.

[Tipi Walter]

Thank you all for the great input. I'm still leaning hard toward the Hilleberg tents. I think I'll get all my gear out this weekend, cull what I can, and see how much more tent weight I realistically think I can carry. And, thank you Tipi for the info regarding flame retardant chemicals. I hadn't thought about that, and it would probably be a serious issue for me both ecologically and health wise.

Mt Hardwear has made a concerted effort to eliminate flame retardants in their new tents---and they make some very light backpacking tents like the Aspect 3---

https://www.mountainhardwear.com/aspect-3-tent-1830091.html

[JNI64]

Mt Hardwear has made a concerted effort to eliminate flame retardants in their new tents---and they make some very light backpacking tents like the Aspect 3---

https://www.mountainhardwear.com/aspect-3-tent-1830091.html

So what does Mt Hardwear and Hilleburg do for flame retardants? I'm asking because I'm seriously considering a Hilleburg as well.

[Tipi Walter]

So what does Mt Hardwear and Hilleburg do for flame retardants? I'm asking because I'm seriously considering a Hilleburg as well.

They just don't use these chemicals in their tents. See below link---

Apparently the CPAI-84 standard is only a recommended flame retardant "requirement" for tents and not required by law. Some companies will not sell tents without the use of these retardants---liability issues---but to my understanding it was never a law.

BUT . . . Hilleberg does use DWR coatings on their inner tents which may be just as bad---more study needed.

https://www.adventure-journal.com/2019/05/mountain-hardwear-says-goodbye-to-flame-retardants-on-their-tents/

[JNI64]

Thank you, I read it all crazy they used to make canvas tents with paraffin wax coating for water protection :eek: . And i found it interesting that firefighters have spoken out against the practice of flame retardants.

[GreatDane]

I just did a quick run through the "interwebs", as my son calls them, and apparently some dwr treatments are much less toxic than others, especially since 2016. No indication on the Hilleberg site as to exactly what dwr treatment they use on their inner tents, at least that I saw. When I get some more time, I'll see if I can get some answers that a non chemistry nerd can understand, and then contact Hilleberg to see what they say. ; )

[cneill13]

Tipi, I love your trip reports. You are a true badass. Happy 70th.

[martinb]

My Hilleberg Allak (2p) is 13 years old. It is as weatherproof as it was on day one. I have used it hundreds of nights and ridden out some mind-boggling weather in it without any water getting inside. One night I set up in a light rain next to a creek. I hurried through the process because I could tell the skies were about to let loose. I climbed in and sure enough it absolutely poured for about an hour. I quickly fell asleep, exhausted. Woke of the next morning and found a little swimming pool created in the umbrella top where the poles cross. I had missed one hook/loop attachment. There was about a half gallon of fresh rainwater in the umbrella and not drop got through it.

The only "con" about this tent is weight. I got a mesh inner and made some other changes to bring it down to a little over 5lbs. Yeah, that's seems "heavy" these days doesn't it? It's now primarily my winter weather tent but still resides at number 1 on my tent list, by a wide margin.

https://live.staticflickr.com/4023/35634672836_366e0476c4_c_d.jpg

[Tipi Walter]

I just did a quick run through the "interwebs", as my son calls them, and apparently some dwr treatments are much less toxic than others, especially since 2016. No indication on the Hilleberg site as to exactly what dwr treatment they use on their inner tents, at least that I saw. When I get some more time, I'll see if I can get some answers that a non chemistry nerd can understand, and then contact Hilleberg to see what they say. ; )

Thanks for the update. I'm pretty (overly) sensitive to chemical stanks (and old Mt Hardwear tents REALLY put out some FR smells) but the only time I notice any kind of Hilleberg smell is when the tent is brand new---smells sort of like an ironing board (remember them?)---or when you iron shirts. Weird.


Tipi, I love your trip reports. You are a true badass. Happy 70th.

Thanks for the input. Too much of Nature, too little of me.


My Hilleberg Allak (2p) is 13 years old. It is as weatherproof as it was on day one. I have used it hundreds of nights and ridden out some mind-boggling weather in it without any water getting inside. One night I set up in a light rain next to a creek. I hurried through the process because I could tell the skies were about to let loose. I climbed in and sure enough it absolutely poured for about an hour. I quickly fell asleep, exhausted. Woke of the next morning and found a little swimming pool created in the umbrella top where the poles cross. I had missed one hook/loop attachment. There was about a half gallon of fresh rainwater in the umbrella and not drop got through it.

The only "con" about this tent is weight. I got a mesh inner and made some other changes to bring it down to a little over 5lbs. Yeah, that's seems "heavy" these days doesn't it? It's now primarily my winter weather tent but still resides at number 1 on my tent list, by a wide margin.

https://live.staticflickr.com/4023/35634672836_366e0476c4_c_d.jpg

Martinb---good post and relevant to a Hilleberg discussion. My old Staika umbrella sheet has 6 seams which leaked slightly in heavy rainstorms so I sealed each seam with McNetts silnet.

It's sort of hard to make a Staika or an Allak a "summer" tent as Hilleberg's tend to become ovens in the summer heat because the fly hugs the ground all around the bottom perimeter. I fixed this problem on my tunnel Keron by using the end guylines to keep the tunnel up and pulling the vestibule fly back to the poles on each end---using clips---

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2020-Trips-202-/Miss-Nature-Shoots-Me-the-Bird/i-B3vvJ7k/0/33928f8c/XL/Trip%20205%20%28182%29-XL.jpg

Your pic reminds me of the fir tree grove on Bob Bald---a great summer location as it's a usually very cool and windy and shady spot for camping---

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2018-Trips-188-/20-Days-with-a-New-McHale-Pack/i-6LqVXSN/0/ed39e4b9/XL/Trip%20192%20%2813%29-XL.jpg

[Tipi Walter]

Oh and btw Martinb---I find I can get about 700 nights out of a Hilleberg tent before the kerlon fly is degraded enough to leak because the silicone treatment "rubs off". 700 nights equates to about 4-5 years for me. I tried the NikWax treatment with poor results although I never tried using Atsko water guard---

46619

[martinb]

Walter, my pic is in the fir grove as you were coming from "butt" rock. BTW, the all mesh inner option makes a big difference in warmer temps. With both doors tied back and the large half-moon vents, I'm quite comfortable all but the hottest temps.

[martinb]

Oh and btw Martinb---I find I can get about 700 nights out of a Hilleberg tent before the kerlon fly is degraded enough to leak because the silicone treatment "rubs off". 700 nights equates to about 4-5 years for me. I tried the NikWax treatment with poor results although I never tried using Atsko water guard---

46619

I'm a little more than half way there with the Allak. I've been seeing other tents on some trips (please don't tell her) so it'll be a while before I'll get to 700.

[Tipi Walter]

Walter, my pic is in the fir grove as you were coming from "butt" rock. BTW, the all mesh inner option makes a big difference in warmer temps. With both doors tied back and the large half-moon vents, I'm quite comfortable all but the hottest temps.

Yes, I can now see that your tent is on the high end of the grove---further east towards the butt rock on the ridge---what I call Bob's Wall. Here's the spot shared with some backpackers in 2015---

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/17-Days-In-Rattlerville/i-LMdxTsW/0/fa6dd0c3/XL/Trip%20165%20034-XL.jpg

[OwenM]

Happy birthday. Glad you had good weather.


You could also research the new Anaris which uses two hiking poles and is very light. I almost bought one last month---although it's not a winter tent---
What? First I start hiking in the Cohutta Wilderness, and now you and I have been looking at the SAME tent?!?
Surely the end of days is upon us!
It's like I've clicked my way into some kind of alternate reality.

Can I interest you in a Katabatic Flex model quilt for late spring, or summer, through early fall?:D

[Tipi Walter]

Happy birthday. Glad you had good weather.

What? First I start hiking in the Cohutta Wilderness, and now you and I have been looking at the SAME tent?!?
Surely the end of days is upon us!
It's like I've clicked my way into some kind of alternate reality.

Can I interest you in a Katabatic Flex model quilt for late spring, or summer, through early fall?:D

Wow---it's very odd but before this trip I got on the Katabatic website and almost ordered one of their 30F or 40F quilts!! You've just had a mind meld with me and complete insanity is assured.

Oddly, the reasons for my Anaris/Katabatic interest is not to lighten pack weight but to adjust to our summer furnace temps---as the Anaris can get into a neat fly-less summer configuration---and the quilt offers minimal heat---like a very light blanket.

But after a person turns 70 he/she doesn't particularly want to invest a lot of money in new items when each trip could be his last. Odd metrics. So I turned my Keron into an Anaris and will stick with my old Marmot down bag for summer.

[illabelle]

Wow---it's very odd but before this trip I got on the Katabatic website and almost ordered one of their 30F or 40F quilts!! You've just had a mind meld with me and complete insanity is assured.

Oddly, the reasons for my Anaris/Katabatic interest is not to lighten pack weight but to adjust to our summer furnace temps---as the Anaris can get into a neat fly-less summer configuration---and the quilt offers minimal heat---like a very light blanket.

But after a person turns 70 he/she doesn't particularly want to invest a lot of money in new items when each trip could be his last. Odd metrics. So I turned my Keron into an Anaris and will stick with my old Marmot down bag for summer.
I just finished reading a story about a 67-year-old man who fell in Joshua Tree (https://www.foxnews.com/great-outdoors/injured-hiker-rescued-joshua-tree-national-park-40-hours) and broke his femur. He had a couple liters of water, but had to endure 110-degree heat for 2 days until rescued (he did the responsible thing and left word with his family regarding his hiking plans). Anyway, the comments were almost uniformly harsh, criticizing this "elderly" man for hiking alone. Tipi, I wish you could educate them about what a 70yo can do.

Seriously though, sometimes I do wonder if any of us (but especially Tipi) will die - alone, in pain, thirsty, nobody looking for us because we're not due back for a while. Stay safe out there!

[Tipi Walter]

I just finished reading a story about a 67-year-old man who fell in Joshua Tree (https://www.foxnews.com/great-outdoors/injured-hiker-rescued-joshua-tree-national-park-40-hours) and broke his femur. He had a couple liters of water, but had to endure 110-degree heat for 2 days until rescued (he did the responsible thing and left word with his family regarding his hiking plans). Anyway, the comments were almost uniformly harsh, criticizing this "elderly" man for hiking alone. Tipi, I wish you could educate them about what a 70yo can do.

Seriously though, sometimes I do wonder if any of us (but especially Tipi) will die - alone, in pain, thirsty, nobody looking for us because we're not due back for a while. Stay safe out there!

Will any of us die alone, in pain, thirsty, nobody looking for us??

To spend any energy thinking about this is wasted energy. Such energy is better spent getting outdoors and backpacking---because life is too short to be spent indoors.

You bring up the endless What If component to backpacking. What if I get hit by lightning? What if I get rattlesnake bit? What if I get tick disease? What if I get rabies? What if I freeze? Couch potatoes have the same worries---what if I have a stroke? A heart attack? Get a nasty virus?

Laurence Gonzales wrote a great book---Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies, And Why. He ends it with this quote---

"We can live a life of bored caution and die of cancer."

[GreatDane]

Years ago I found this in an ad for hiking boots (can't remember the brand so I can't properly attribute):

You could get mauled by a bear and die.
You could get bit by a snake and die.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get gored by a bison and die.
You could get struck by lightening and die.
You could get shot by a hunter and die.
You could get attacked by fire ants and die.

Or you could stay home on the couch, eat potato chips and die.


It's on the wall in my office. Although it probably should be right next to my comfy chair. ;)

And yes, Tipi, I remember the smell of freshly ironed fabric. When I was a kid, every Tuesday was ironing day, all day. Long before permanent press fabrics, so everything, right down to the sheets and pillowcases, was ironed. I imagine my Mom was thrilled when her girls were old enough to take over that task for her.

But I digress. I did get a chance to do enough research on dwr treatments on new tents yesterday to be able to ask Hilleberg a reasonably intelligent question. Will try to get on that over the weekend and let you all know what I find out.

[OwenM]

Oddly, the reasons for my Anaris/Katabatic interest is not to lighten pack weight but to adjust to our summer furnace temps---as the Anaris can get into a neat fly-less summer configuration---and the quilt offers minimal heat---like a very light blanket.

But after a person turns 70 he/she doesn't particularly want to invest a lot of money in new items when each trip could be his last. Odd metrics. So I turned my Keron into an Anaris and will stick with my old Marmot down bag for summer.
Figured you might want more ventilation. It's warm out there!
Totally get the "each trip could be my last" thing, 'cause I tend to think that way due to my back, but you also kind of embody the whole "age is just a number" sentiment. Plus you spend so much time outdoors, and in a tent...
Now you've got me wanting to try sweet potatoes with quinoa, too.

I've been talking myself in and out of a 2p tent for awhile(my little 1p shelters are a lot less livable with inner nets), and that Anaris checks a lot of boxes for me. I especially like that Hilleberg doesn't make the compromises with materials that other makers do.

[Tipi Walter]

Years ago I found this in an ad for hiking boots (can't remember the brand so I can't properly attribute):

You could get mauled by a bear and die.
You could get bit by a snake and die.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get gored by a bison and die.
You could get struck by lightening and die.
You could get shot by a hunter and die.
You could get attacked by fire ants and die.

Or you could stay home on the couch, eat potato chips and die.


It's on the wall in my office. Although it probably should be right next to my comfy chair. ;)

And yes, Tipi, I remember the smell of freshly ironed fabric. When I was a kid, every Tuesday was ironing day, all day. Long before permanent press fabrics, so everything, right down to the sheets and pillowcases, was ironed. I imagine my Mom was thrilled when her girls were old enough to take over that task for her.

But I digress. I did get a chance to do enough research on dwr treatments on new tents yesterday to be able to ask Hilleberg a reasonably intelligent question. Will try to get on that over the weekend and let you all know what I find out.

Stay at home on the couch eating potato chips and die---about says it all.

Hopefully Hilleberg will give you an adequate explanation of their use of DWR.


Figured you might want more ventilation. It's warm out there!
Totally get the "each trip could be my last" thing, 'cause I tend to think that way due to my back, but you also kind of embody the whole "age is just a number" sentiment. Plus you spend so much time outdoors, and in a tent...
Now you've got me wanting to try sweet potatoes with quinoa, too.

I've been talking myself in and out of a 2p tent for awhile(my little 1p shelters are a lot less livable with inner nets), and that Anaris checks a lot of boxes for me. I especially like that Hilleberg doesn't make the compromises with materials that other makers do.

What's even better is small red potatoes with quinoa.

If I survive this summer and get past winter I'll most certainly purchase the Anaris next spring in prep for next summer's heat. It's a tent that can go from a full double wall shelter to a fully ventilated tent---

46633
Full lockdown.

46634
Partial venting.

46635
Complete venting---notice fly is rolled up on top of tent peak.

[illabelle]

Will any of us die alone, in pain, thirsty, nobody looking for us??

To spend any energy thinking about this is wasted energy. Such energy is better spent getting outdoors and backpacking---because life is too short to be spent indoors.

You bring up the endless What If component to backpacking. What if I get hit by lightning? What if I get rattlesnake bit? What if I get tick disease? What if I get rabies? What if I freeze? Couch potatoes have the same worries---what if I have a stroke? A heart attack? Get a nasty virus?

Laurence Gonzales wrote a great book---Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies, And Why. He ends it with this quote---

"We can live a life of bored caution and die of cancer."
I had that book, then gave it to a young man who was interested in the topic. And of course you're completely right. The couch potatoes may be closer to an ambulance, but who really wants to waste away tethered to civilization because your vital organs are incapacitated by disease? Not me.

[Tipi Walter]

I finished my Trail Journal text report for this trip and it can be found here---

https://www.trailjournals.com/journal/entry/630010