View Full Version : It finally happened...
Slo-go'en
10-16-2020, 11:19
Got bit by a day hiker dog :mad:
Going up the Imp trail for a 2 night hike on the AT. 1/2 mile from the ridge line, I see a couple with a dog coming down. It's a steep and narrow trail at that point. The dog sees me and comes running at me while barking. Owner calls the dog back and after 3-4 tries, it finally returns and gets leashed. I don't know what type it was, on the small size and looked like one of those high strung designer dogs they probably paid a breeder a bundle for.
I approach and they move off the trail as much as can be, which wasn't much at that point, barely enough room to pass. I stop for a second before going by and the dog sniffs my feet and seems to be okay, but as I pass, it lunges and nips the side of my leg. "OMG she's never done anything like that before, I'm so sorry" Not as sorry as I am. Got a first aid kit and what's your contact info?
Thankfully, it was just a flesh wound, enough to bruise and bleed a little. It didn't impact my hiking for the rest of the trip, but what a way to start.
46817
BlackCloud
10-16-2020, 11:47
It is a difficult issue, being polite to people and protecting yourself from their unknown animal at the same time.
What is clear is that it is completely rude to allow your pet to run up on anyone. I have a friend in his 40s who was bitten badly as a kid and is still fearful of dogs.
I try to put my walking stick between me and the quadrapeds. Since I was bitten by a dog on a leash on the C&O Canal, I am more prepared to swat at it with my stick.
It is just horrible etiquette, bad for wildlife and usually against park rules to let your animal run wild.
My son was bitten by a dog also and had to come off the trail.
OUCH! That sucks! Years ago I was hiking up from snickers gap up to ravens rocks with my dog and came across the same situation dog was loose people yelling he's ok, they called their dog back and got it on a leash and this also was a tight trail . But as we were passing their dog attacked my dog, it was all I could do to hold him back. A 80 lb pitbull ! If I would have let my dog attack back it would not have ended very good for their dog. At that point I had no problem being rude and telling them like it is.
ldsailor
10-16-2020, 12:46
I'm more wary of dogs on the trail than I am of bears or most any other wild animal. I blame owners for not maintaining control. "Oh, my little Fifi loves everyone," as the ******en dog lunges for my throat. I've had more than a few dogs do that while I'm hiking.
stephanD
10-16-2020, 12:52
I think every hiker as a dog story. Mine happened in 2017. I finished a section hike from Newfound Gap to Springer and I started going down the approach trail. Then I see two huge dogs, one pitch black, one kind of brownish slowly approaching towards me. we all stopped when they were about 10-15 feet away from each other. They started growling and I raised my hiking poles expecting an attack. We stayed like this for a long minute, watching each other, until the owner showed up and called the dogs. His attitude was like "what's the big deal" and he nonchalantly continued his way up the trail.
Ankle Bone
10-16-2020, 13:02
I think every hiker as a dog story. Mine happened in 2017. I finished a section hike from Newfound Gap to Springer and I started going down the approach trail. Then I see two huge dogs, one pitch black, one kind of brownish slowly approaching towards me. we all stopped when they were about 10-15 feet away from each other. They started growling and I raised my hiking poles expecting an attack. We stayed like this for a long minute, watching each other, until the owner showed up and called the dogs. His attitude was like "what's the big deal" and he nonchalantly continued his way up the trail.
Yep, and that's why the pepper spray is always on my waist belt. Sucks because the owner, not the dog, is at fault.
I have always wondered what I would do to follow up on a situation like that, mostly to insure that my health or the health of my hiking partner was in no way at risk.
At a minimum, I would want to make sure about how recent my tetanus booster was, and ask for any out of pocket expenses were covered by the dog’s owner. With deductibles, even a Doc-in-a-Box can be expensive.
a little girl just recently here in maryland got bit by a pit bull while on a trail.....
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/maryland/pit-bull-bites-six-year-old-girl-catoctin-mountain-park/65-daf100b9-e4f8-432c-821b-de0ad65db4db
I stop for a second before going by and the dog sniffs my feet and seems to be okay, but as I pass, it lunges and nips the side of my leg. "OMG she's never done anything like that before, I'm so sorry" Not as sorry as I am. Got a first aid kit and what's your contact info?
did the owner give you their contact info?
NY HIKER 50
10-16-2020, 14:08
This is a big deal that no one mentioned. A dog biting someone should be immediately reported to the local authorities and the owners should be cited.
Not to come off like a Rambo, macho,tough guy, wanna be but. I had problems with some dogs in my past and had real concerns for my safety. So I got some advice from a highly respected friend of mine in the self protection field. Here was his advice against real threatening dog attack. If you have a stick or hiking pole as the dog advances stick it in his mouth they don't have great vision this way like cross eyed, but let the dog take the stick than jam it straight down their throat and don't stop. If you don't have a stick take your shirt off or jacket wrap it around your forearm and let the attacking dog take your protected arm. Then take your other arm around the back of their neck and snap back breaking the neck. Dogs necks don't go backwards like ours. I offer this advice so it may save someone someday.
Slo-go'en
10-16-2020, 16:32
did the owner give you their contact info?
Yes, I did.
What I think happened is when I started to walk by, the dog just lunged at the motion. It was sudden and unanticipated. The other problem was the trail was about 3 feet wide at the top of some steep ledge, no where for them to really go. I was half way up the tricky part when they stopped at the top to let me finish the climb. A bad combination of conditions more then anything.
Teacher & Snacktime
10-16-2020, 16:34
Yep, and that's why the pepper spray is always on my waist belt. Sucks because the owner, not the dog, is at fault.
If you are forced to spray, perhaps you should be sure to get both? Love dogs, hate them on the trail. NOBODY keeps them leashed.
Slo-go'en
10-16-2020, 16:35
This is a big deal that no one mentioned. A dog biting someone should be immediately reported to the local authorities and the owners should be cited.
Well, it happened on National Forest land in an unincorporated territory and the owners live in MA, so who does it get reported to? If it had resulted in my needing stiches and a rescue to get off the mountain, that would be a different story and in the news.
peakbagger
10-16-2020, 18:03
Unless its a Covid puppy, the "OMG my dog has never done anything like this" is usually BS. Folks with scared /aggressive dogs usually seem to be blind to their dogs issues. My guess is by the time they got back to the car it was your fault. Just call 911 and let them sort it out on jurisdiction.
gsingjane
10-16-2020, 19:32
I understand that there isn't necessarily an authority to which to report bites on a trail, but NY Hiker's advice is very good in general. When I was attacked by a German Shepherd outside my house, I called the police to report it (it was a very serious bite). Afterwards I learned that the same dog had bitten people numerous times before in our neighborhood, but nobody had ever reported it before. Animal Control said their hands were tied because it was the dog's "first reported bite." Eventually the dog was put down but that was more because the owner refused to do what he had to (fencing) to keep the dog under control. I hated to see it, but I have the permanent nerve damage on my thigh to remind me.
Ours is always on a leash. She's a cute Aussie that everyone wants to pet. Everyone always ask if they can pet and does she bite. I explain to them that all animals will bite. Most people after that no longer wants to pet her. My poor dog probably feels like a lepper.
Well, it happened on National Forest land in an unincorporated territory and the owners live in MA
doesn't the national forest have rangers up there?
and what about county sheriff?
or is it just complete anarchy?
cliffordbarnabus
10-17-2020, 02:35
dogs are kids.
they are brilliant, perfect, everyone should love them, and they should always get a+'s. they can do no wrong.
my best one was when i was bitten and the dog owner finally arrived on the scene, acted like it was my fault, and showed me the unconnected leash in her hand as if it were some sort of justifying evidence.
Traveler
10-17-2020, 08:54
Sorry to hear of the dog bite, if not for the wound (which looks painful) and potential complications, but for the uneasy feeling that will present itself in similar circumstances from now on. FWIW, as a result of my experience I always keep a trekking pole between me and a dog regardless of protestations of owners with or without leash sense.
The ATC has an incident reporting form that can be used to report incidents like dog bites (https://appalachiantrail.org/explore/plan-and-prepare/hiking-basics/safety/). If nothing else this form should be filled out with details of the owner included and sent back to the ATC. I would share the report with the NPS, (or USFS if appropriate), and State Fish and Game. No clue if the owner will be followed up with, but NH does have a pretty serious "strict liability" dog responsibility law and I would suspect at least one of these agencies will make owner contact.
Everyone caught speeding claims they never do it, everyone who's dog bites someone claims it never happened before. This can be a very serious issue as dog bites can transmit bacteria and potential illness the dog not show symptoms of but can cause problems down the road for people. I would not take anyone's word their dog has been properly vaccinated, though I would accept a Vet's email detailing the vaccination history.
You are a good guy and may be thinking this was not such a big deal and reporting this may cause the owner some inconvenience. Unfortunately if there are no ramifications the dog will be dragged along on other hikes to repeat it's behavior and the claim "It's never done that before" will be heard again. But, the dog does bite and probably should not be on trails at all. Your action here will document the dog's behavior, may cause the owner some minor inconvenience and perhaps a small amount of money, and may prevent the dog biting someone else on a trail, perhaps a child who may be scarred for life as a result.
BlackCloud
10-17-2020, 12:35
USFS has very very few LEOs. If you call the Forest Service they usually ask for help from the County.
BlackCloud
10-17-2020, 12:37
I think every hiker as a dog story. Mine happened in 2017. I finished a section hike from Newfound Gap to Springer and I started going down the approach trail. Then I see two huge dogs, one pitch black, one kind of brownish slowly approaching towards me. we all stopped when they were about 10-15 feet away from each other. They started growling and I raised my hiking poles expecting an attack. We stayed like this for a long minute, watching each other, until the owner showed up and called the dogs. His attitude was like "what's the big deal" and he nonchalantly continued his way up the trail.
If threatened like that it is reasonable to draw a firearm on the dog(s) [not the owner]. Owner attitude might be very different at seeing their precious property in danger.
BlackCloud
10-17-2020, 12:40
Not to come off like a Rambo, macho,tough guy, wanna be but. I had problems with some dogs in my past and had real concerns for my safety. So I got some advice from a highly respected friend of mine in the self protection field. Here was his advice against real threatening dog attack. If you have a stick or hiking pole as the dog advances stick it in his mouth they don't have great vision this way like cross eyed, but let the dog take the stick than jam it straight down their throat and don't stop. If you don't have a stick take your shirt off or jacket wrap it around your forearm and let the attacking dog take your protected arm. Then take your other arm around the back of their neck and snap back breaking the neck. Dogs necks don't go backwards like ours. I offer this advice so it may save someone someday.
Good advice but I really don't want to go "hands on" with an animal. You may win, but unlikely you would escape uninjured. I would prefer defense at a distance, say with bear spray or firearm.
Five Tango
10-18-2020, 06:32
Unless its a Covid puppy, the "OMG my dog has never done anything like this" is usually BS. Folks with scared /aggressive dogs usually seem to be blind to their dogs issues. My guess is by the time they got back to the car it was your fault. Just call 911 and let them sort it out on jurisdiction.
I had a couple tell me after their handsome Golden Retriever,of all things,lunged at me while on leash that the dog did not like my balaclava and hat ensemble.Sorry,my bad..................
ldsailor
10-18-2020, 12:52
I had a couple tell me after their handsome Golden Retriever,of all things,lunged at me while on leash that the dog did not like my balaclava and hat ensemble.Sorry,my bad..................
Thus making it your fault, and therein lies the crux of the problem. I wonder if it ever occurred to the owners to maybe not bring their dog to a trail where people might be wearing hats and balaclavas?
I once had an encounter with a junk yard dog as I got out of my car to go seek the owner of the junk yard. The dog came out from around the front of my car fiercly barking, growling and showing it's very large teeth as if to kill me. I immediately started yelling at it to go lay down, I yelled as loud as I could repeatedly....go lay down!!! yelling at it as if I were it's owner. The dog retreated a bit as it swirled in a turnaround fashion as if unsure of what was happening. At that point I turned around and opened my car door, jumped in, closed the window and gave a huge sigh of relief. I did learn a lesson that day. The owner of the junk yard never show up and I drove away in haste :-)
In a local forest preserve park while jogging I was bitten in the heel by one of 3 dogs not on a leash. Dogs belonged to an elderly couple out for a walk. They appologised and tried to put the dogs on a leash as fast as they could. Lesson learned........when I see people approching with dog on or off leash I STOP and remain motionless until dog and people/person passes me. I no longer trust dogs. I don't want to be bitten again.
One Half
10-18-2020, 21:28
Got bit by a day hiker dog :mad:
Going up the Imp trail for a 2 night hike on the AT. 1/2 mile from the ridge line, I see a couple with a dog coming down. It's a steep and narrow trail at that point. The dog sees me and comes running at me while barking. Owner calls the dog back and after 3-4 tries, it finally returns and gets leashed. I don't know what type it was, on the small size and looked like one of those high strung designer dogs they probably paid a breeder a bundle for.
I approach and they move off the trail as much as can be, which wasn't much at that point, barely enough room to pass. I stop for a second before going by and the dog sniffs my feet and seems to be okay, but as I pass, it lunges and nips the side of my leg. "OMG she's never done anything like that before, I'm so sorry" Not as sorry as I am. Got a first aid kit and what's your contact info?
Thankfully, it was just a flesh wound, enough to bruise and bleed a little. It didn't impact my hiking for the rest of the trip, but what a way to start.
46817
This is usually a lie in my experience. I love dogs. Always was able to calm any dog. Walked around a corner one day in a building and a dog woke up, jumped up, and latched onto my arm. I was told "first time this ever happened." Owner paid my doctor bill. Later on, I learned I was at LEAST the THIRD person this dog had bit!
One Half
10-18-2020, 21:31
Well, it happened on National Forest land in an unincorporated territory and the owners live in MA, so who does it get reported to? If it had resulted in my needing stiches and a rescue to get off the mountain, that would be a different story and in the news.
Report the incident in the town the dog resides. maybe locally as well. but definitely to the dog licensing officer in their town of residence.
Trailweaver
10-19-2020, 01:35
I have not tried this on the trail as every dog I have encountered has been "nice" - and I don't approach them without asking the owner if it's OK - but may I suggest this? When I was riding a bike a lot, and during the Bicycle Ride Across GA (BRAG Ride), we were told that the best way to deter a dog that was barking at and running with our bike was to take our water bottle out and give a quick squirt of water to the face. Not necessarily to the eyes, but just the face. It kinda startles the dog, and they back off. They aren't hurt by it, and I have used it many times, and it always worked for me. This was a "biker's" water bottle, the kind that squirts water into your mouth from a nozzle, so those of you who use the other kinds of hydration systems wouldn't necessarily have one handy, but you might consider carrying a small squirt gun or bottle just for this purpose. It's a kinder way to handle the dog and it might avert a bite from the dog and a grouchy encounter from the owner.
Lol, a small squirt gun that shoots water lol......
One Half
10-19-2020, 08:56
I think some posters here are missing the point IMO. And that is it is incumbent on the dog owner to make sure the dog doesn't harm another. There are times when people don't see the attack coming before it happens. The owners need to keep a tight leash.
BlackCloud
10-19-2020, 10:41
This is usually a lie in my experience. I love dogs. Always was able to calm any dog. Walked around a corner one day in a building and a dog woke up, jumped up, and latched onto my arm. I was told "first time this ever happened." Owner paid my doctor bill. Later on, I learned I was at LEAST the THIRD person this dog had bit!
That is a lawsuit you are 100% winning.
BlackCloud
10-19-2020, 10:43
I have not tried this on the trail as every dog I have encountered has been "nice" - and I don't approach them without asking the owner if it's OK - but may I suggest this? When I was riding a bike a lot, and during the Bicycle Ride Across GA (BRAG Ride), we were told that the best way to deter a dog that was barking at and running with our bike was to take our water bottle out and give a quick squirt of water to the face. Not necessarily to the eyes, but just the face. It kinda startles the dog, and they back off. They aren't hurt by it, and I have used it many times, and it always worked for me. This was a "biker's" water bottle, the kind that squirts water into your mouth from a nozzle, so those of you who use the other kinds of hydration systems wouldn't necessarily have one handy, but you might consider carrying a small squirt gun or bottle just for this purpose. It's a kinder way to handle the dog and it might avert a bite from the dog and a grouchy encounter from the owner.
As a cyclist I can second this. My cycling partner has done this several times. We have also learned that raising something as if to throw it gets the dog's attention.
Oh ok sorry for laughing at your suggestion :rolleyes: .
Five Tango
10-19-2020, 17:18
Long story,but I once owned a fairly aggressive dog.I kept him muzzled in public,he could open his mouth just fine in the "box" muzzle but could not bite anybody.FTR,I would never own another aggressive animal-period-not worth the hassle.......The day I almost got nailed by the Golden Retriever,I also had a scary encounter with a beautiful white German Shepherd.I'm gonna rethink my balaclava and hat ensemble next cold day I spend on a busy trail.....But all dog owners that feel the need to take their dog on trail would be well advised to muzzle them.
That's life. No real harm done. Animals are sometimes unpredictable Hike on!.
Slo-go'en
10-19-2020, 19:13
That's life. No real harm done. Animals are sometimes unpredictable Hike on!.
No great harm done, but I'll wear the scare for some time, something I could have done without. This incident was unpredictable, but next time I'll make sure there's more distance between me and a dog, even if the trail is only 3 feet wide and there's no way to step off it at that point.
The number of people hiking with dogs has exploded over the last couple of years and with COVID, it seems to have gotten even worse. While the majority of dogs are just fine, there are some which aren't and you can't always tell which are which.
good info at this site:
How to Stop a Dog Attack While Backpacking
https://www.runnersblueprint.com/prevent-and-handle-a-dog-attack-while-running/
Ankle Bone
10-19-2020, 19:29
If you are forced to spray, perhaps you should be sure to get both? Love dogs, hate them on the trail. NOBODY keeps them leashed.
I think this is an excellent idea. Owner first, then the dog!
good info at this site:
How to Stop a Dog Attack While Backpacking
https://www.runnersblueprint.com/prevent-and-handle-a-dog-attack-while-running/
Alot of good info here, but the part about hitting the dog over the head with a stick is what I tried onetime against a aggressive dog and the stick just broke and pissed the dog off more. That's when I learned what to do with a stick next time. You're not going to hit a dog with a carbon fiber or aluminum hiking stick. But you can utilize as a weapon the way described.
HooKooDooKu
10-19-2020, 20:36
I didn't find those suggestions very useful for me... Either I already knew them (like don't run) or it was things that didn't make much sense... like telling the dog to "back off". I doubt.1 in 10 dogs would recognize those words... but 10 in 10 should understand a loud and firm "NO!".
And "fold your arms"?... Well I guess this was for joggers. When I was walking my neighborhood, there was this one house where if the owner was out front with his dog, this dog WOULD charge me (even though I was standing in the street and NOT in his "territory". In any case, the thing that always worked for me was to firmly point my hiking pole right at the dog. The idea being if he tries to come at me, the pole should keep him 5' away from my torso.
Actually, the reason I walk the road in my neighborhood with a hiking pole is because one evening a lady stepped out of her car and before she could react, her little toy of a dog jumped out of the car and ran at me and managed to bite... well at least it was only my sock in that case. Bit since that time, I always carry a hiking stick, and my intent to use it for protection is to basically poke the dog with it if it comes within poking distance.
KnightErrant
10-19-2020, 20:45
That's life. No real harm done. Animals are sometimes unpredictable Hike on!.
Did you miss the photo of the literal harm done? I mean, it's not a serious injury, but it's also not something to shrug off as an acceptable risk of hiking. When I go for a hike, I have to acknowledge that I might trip and fall, get some bug bites, or even be harmed by a wild animal like a bear or a rattlesnake. That would be unfortunate, but it would be no one's fault, and the small chance that it happens is part of hiking. But getting bitten by another hiker's dog is 100% that dog owner's fault (unless you were to deliberately antagonize it or something) and it was not a risk that I sign up for when I hit the trail.
As someone who adores dogs and grew up with dogs, I love encountering well-behaved dogs on the trail, but I completely agree with Traveler's comment that the bite should be reported so that the owners take it seriously. As a teacher who leads groups of 5th-8th graders on hikes (in non pandemic times, at least) I would be horrified to have one of my kiddos bitten, and extremely frustrated to find out if it wasn't the first time the dog had been aggressive and nothing had been done.
stephanD
10-20-2020, 08:38
That's life. No real harm done. Animals are sometimes unpredictable Hike on!.
That's life = easy to say when it is not YOU the victim
No real harm done = how do you know that?
Animals are unpredictable = that is exactly why the owners should be hold responsible for their dog's behavior.
Five Tango
10-20-2020, 09:01
FWIW,I think a leashed dog is more emboldened by the leash than not as my dog enjoyed "showing out" while leashed;presumably because he knew I was not going to let go.So keep that in mind while hiking.I think the leash makes them more protective as they feel more connected to and "backed up" by their owners.
I learned this after dog scared my brother (and ME) half to death before I could slam the front door in brother's face for his protection.Dog immediately sat down,looked at me with a GRIN on his face as if to say,"We sure scared him didn't we?!"
wornoutboots
10-20-2020, 09:30
I hope you sued them!! I've encountered this too many times to be nice to irresponsible dog owners :/
Ankle Bone
10-20-2020, 12:36
I didn't find those suggestions very useful for me... Either I already knew them (like don't run) or it was things that didn't make much sense... like telling the dog to "back off". I doubt.1 in 10 dogs would recognize those words... but 10 in 10 should understand a loud and firm "NO!".
And "fold your arms"?... Well I guess this was for joggers. When I was walking my neighborhood, there was this one house where if the owner was out front with his dog, this dog WOULD charge me (even though I was standing in the street and NOT in his "territory". In any case, the thing that always worked for me was to firmly point my hiking pole right at the dog. The idea being if he tries to come at me, the pole should keep him 5' away from my torso.
Actually, the reason I walk the road in my neighborhood with a hiking pole is because one evening a lady stepped out of her car and before she could react, her little toy of a dog jumped out of the car and ran at me and managed to bite... well at least it was only my sock in that case. Bit since that time, I always carry a hiking stick, and my intent to use it for protection is to basically poke the dog with it if it comes within poking distance.
Same reason I carry the spray when I run in the neighborhoods. If your dog stays in his yard, he can bark all day. If he leaves your yard, then you don't have him under control and I will prevent him from biting me.
I've had to explain this to a few owners after their dogs came at me and I sprayed them. Been bitten twice, won't let it happen again.
Had a neighbor who said I was the only person the dog would run at. I said great, I'll be the only person taking your house when I sue you. Next week they had an electric fence up that the dog obeyed.
Not good
https://youtu.be/5lvBWuSxeug
TexasBob
10-21-2020, 09:23
Not good
https://youtu.be/5lvBWuSxeug
Scary encounter. The jogger is lucky he wasn't seriously injured.
ldsailor
10-21-2020, 10:44
I had something similar happen to me on the AT except I was able to avoid getting bit. The owner could not get a leash on the dog and get him under control for several minutes.
I had something similar happen to me on the AT except I was able to avoid getting bit. The owner could not get a leash on the dog and get him under control for several minutes.
That's why the leash should not come off when out , that would not be a problem.
Ironically just yesterday I let my dog out to pee before I went to work i looked out and the neighbors dog was out there sniffing my dogs butt. I just moved to a new house and my fence is coming soon. Besides my dog looked like he didn’t mind
So much and my neighbor is the friendly neighborhood leo!
The more I think about this situation, the more I dislike it to the point of getting pi$$ed off. I may have to get some pepper spray and go for more walks to find offenders that I can spray:dance..........the owners...not the dogs :D
The more I think about this situation, the more I dislike it to the point of getting pi$$ed off. I may have to get some pepper spray and go for more walks to find offenders that I can spray:dance..........the owners...not the dogs :D
Lol yeah I feel ya ,( ooops sorry covid) I mean I know what ya means. But just a lil advice take bear spray so you don't miss. You never know he or she could have moves like this :dance !
Slo-go'en
10-21-2020, 16:45
Bear spray would not have helped in my situation this time, but other times it might have been handy to have. This of course was not nearly my first encounter with an unrulily dog.
It's been almost a week now and the wound is mostly healed up and no bad effects which I've noticed.
nsherry61
10-21-2020, 17:02
If you are forced to spray, perhaps you should be sure to get both? Love dogs, hate them on the trail. NOBODY keeps them leashed.
With my experience and reinforced from what I've read on this thread, leashed dogs are more likely to be dangerous dogs. Free running/roaming dogs are rarely a real threat. This may be because people with more dangerous dogs tend to keep them leashed. This also might be because dogs on leash are more likely to be defensive and/or react in fear while off-leash dogs can maintain what they perceive as a safe distance and/or don't feel the same need to show protection to their leash holder. Either way, I've only ever seen dogs attack people either while they are leashed or when someone walks into what they identify as their home territory (i.e. not loose on a trail).
And, for these reasons, I find it ironic that in these forums that I read of more people complaining about and condemning people for having their dogs off leash than I do about having potentially aggressive dogs anywhere where they have the remote chance of coming into close(ish) contact with other people either on or off leash. In fact, I read of people condemning others for having their dogs off leash based on being bitten by a dog on a leash!!
The problem is not dogs being off leash. The problem is aggressive, or potentially aggressive dogs being anywhere they can come in contact with other people. Condemn bad behavior (on or off leash) don't condemn well behaved animals roaming free.
Free running/roaming dogs are rarely a real threat. This may be because people with more dangerous dogs tend to keep them leashed
sadly, this is not a true statement....
KnightErrant
10-21-2020, 20:48
While leashed dogs aren't automatically safe, I've had many more problems with off-leash dogs than on-leash, mainly because at least the owner is usually forced to pay attention to a leashed dog, while many owners seem to let them just run rampant when off-leash.
I spent several weeks on my thru-hike with a fellow hiker with an absolute angel of a dog, and I had no complaints about her pup being off leash. That said, while day hiking in the whites, I've been jumped on, licked, and growled at by off leash dogs, far out ahead of their owners (owners often even out of sight). I had one of my middle school students get knocked over into a snowbank by an overly friendly off-leash labrador on one of our school hikes. On an overnight staying at Liberty Springs, a thru-hiker's off-leash dog, put its face right into my ramen that was sitting on my tent platform while the owner was cooking several yards away. I've had a different off-leash dog pee on some of my gear at a different AT shelter while the owner wasn't paying attention.
If an off-leash dog stays with its owner and doesn't approach other hikers or leashed dogs, and can be trusted not to chase wildlife, then I don't mind an off-leash dog. Unfortunately, the vast majority of off-leash dogs I encounter on the trail do not fit these criteria. WMNF guidelines state that dogs need to be under "voice or leash control." So most of these dogs owners are technically breaking the rules, even on "dog-friendly" trails.
That said, the only time I've been bitten by a stranger's dog was by a leashed husky that some guy had *inside* a gas station for some reason. Just took a quick snap at me as I came in the door. Luckily only tore my jeans and pinched/bruised my thigh, didn't break the skin.
If dogs are well-behaved, I'm happy to see them, leash or off leash. Otherwise, I wish the owner would leave them at home.
All this talk about unleashed dogs is making me nostalgic for all the road walks we used to have. :):)
Ankle Bone
10-22-2020, 09:09
sadly, this is not a true statement....
Agree. No truth in that statement. Be prepared to defend yourself in every dog encounter when hiking/biking/running, and hope you are wrong.
Average Hiker
10-22-2020, 11:23
I love dogs, but no longer have any real desire to see them on trails.
I always keep my dog on a leash, but she no longer hikes with me because of being attacked by unleashed dogs on multiple occasions. I now carry pepper spray (and I HATE adding weight :rolleyes:) because of the numerous times I've been growled at, lunged at, snapped at, etc. - all while hearing "They have never done that." or "They are scared of your hiking poles."
Hiking with a thru-couple, I watched as a very large German Shepherd latched onto the forearm of the male hiker, shaking it like a rag and doing some damage. The dog was off leash and the hiker sobbed as she tried to leash him, while yelling - "He is a rescue and has never done that!"
I've met some wonderful, well behaved dogs. I was recently in Colorado and spent two weeks hiking around another hiker and her Blue Heeler. The Blue Heeler was awesome and obeyed voice commands well. I think I may have had a "dog crush" by the time they got off trail. :)
At the end of the day, after years on trails with dogs, I would be fine if I did not have to deal with another one while hiking. Far more people CANNOT control them than CAN control them.
4eyedbuzzard
10-23-2020, 05:42
"He's never done that before" - not to make light of your injury Slo, but this always comes to mind - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C59-wJhBpq8
Traveler
10-23-2020, 06:21
Haha! Always loved that bit.
nsherry61
10-25-2020, 16:20
sadly, this is not a true statement....
I wonder if we may be dealing with regional differences in experience?
The vast majority of my hiking and backpacking (50+ years of it) has been in the Pacific NW and the Northeast US. I will not dispute that there are obnoxious dogs off leash that owners that have very poor to no control of. But, as for truly dangerous, as in dogs that will bite, not just obnoxiously friendly or aggressively barking dogs, I have not encountered any off leash on public land. I've certainly encountered scary dogs and threatening dogs. BUT, with one or maybe two exceptions noted in above comments, truly dangerous dogs, off leash are rare.
And, this takes me back to the point I was trying to make earlier in the thread. Can we get all worked up about poorly behaved and poorly controlled dogs (people too for that matter) regardless of whether or not they are on leash? And, can we NOT default to either condemning dogs because they are off leash or suggesting that dogs on leash are okay, as long as the leash is short enough?
BUT, with one or maybe two exceptions noted in above comments, truly dangerous dogs, off leash are rare.
again, i will say that sadly this is not a true statement....
with my job that i just got outta of-----i've covered maybe 6 or 7 deaths due to off leashed dogs.....
and numerous serious maulings with off leashed dogs.....
Can we get all worked up about poorly behaved and poorly controlled dogs (people too for that matter) regardless of whether or not they are on leash
and yes, we should.......
bottom line, imo, dogs on a leash that are controlled by their owners are going to be safer all around than dogs off a leash.......(and yes, leash size matters).....
nsherry61
10-25-2020, 23:20
again, i will say that sadly this is not a true statement....
with my job that i just got outta of-----i've covered maybe 6 or 7 deaths due to off leashed dogs.....
And how many of those were hikers on on public lands? And, what part of the country? You suggest that my observations are not true. Whereas I suggest my observations are absolutely true to my experience. So, why the discrepancy? What vague job has given you access to covering multiple people being killed by dogs when there are apparently only 30 to 50 people killed by dogs each year. So, statistically you are more than 100 times more likely to be killed by lightning in any given year than by a dog. Hmm. It appears to me that you are fanning the flames of fear without a lot of voracity to your tails?
Slo-go'en
10-26-2020, 07:46
TNhiker works for a news paper. Apparently there are a lot of vicious dogs in Tennessee. Of course, the number of people bitten by dogs which don't result in death is much greater. Hum, apparently 4.5 million people are bitten by dogs every year, 800,000 requiring medical attention. Most of the victims are children.
The number of people hiking with dogs has exploded over the last couple of years, especially this year. Many of these people are first time hikers with dogs who have never been out of the house. So, the chances of encountering an unrulily dog and clueless owner has gotten much greater.
An update on my condition: After 10 days or so, it's mostly healed up with no complications. Thankfully, the dog wasn't able to sink it's teeth too far into me.
stephanD
10-26-2020, 08:22
In the picture you posted, we can see the skin is clearly broken. So I'm just curious, did you have to take the rabies shots? and if so, who paid for them? Because they can be quite expensive.
TexasBob
10-26-2020, 10:21
I wonder if we may be dealing with regional differences in experience?
The vast majority of my hiking and backpacking (50+ years of it) has been in the Pacific NW and the Northeast US. I will not dispute that there are obnoxious dogs off leash that owners that have very poor to no control of. But, as for truly dangerous, as in dogs that will bite, not just obnoxiously friendly or aggressively barking dogs, I have not encountered any off leash on public land. I've certainly encountered scary dogs and threatening dogs. BUT, with one or maybe two exceptions noted in above comments, truly dangerous dogs, off leash are rare...........
I guess it depends on your definition of "truly dangerous". Any dog who is aggressive toward strangers is potentially dangerous and given the right circumstances that aggression can and will evolve into an attack. Size of the dog doesn't really matter. It doesn't have to be a Rottweiler. A Jack Russell or a Beagle intent on mayhem can mess you up.
GoldenBear
10-26-2020, 10:37
statistically you are more than 100 times more likely to be killed by lightning in any given year than by a dog
https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-odds
27 is not 100 times greater than 30.
I guess it depends on your definition of "truly dangerous". Any dog who is aggressive toward strangers is potentially dangerous and given the right circumstances that aggression can and will evolve into an attack. Size of the dog doesn't really matter. It doesn't have to be a Rottweiler. A Jack Russell or a Beagle intent on mayhem can mess you up.
Aka " it's not the size of the dog, it's the size of the fight in the dog " . Bottom line people need to keep them leashed when out and under complete control. And confined to their property.
Glad to hear all is well slo, a little ptsd perhaps....
Slo-go'en
10-26-2020, 11:28
In the picture you posted, we can see the skin is clearly broken. So I'm just curious, did you have to take the rabies shots? and if so, who paid for them? Because they can be quite expensive.
I was assured the mutt had all it's shots. They looked like a well off couple from Mass with an expensive dog from a breeder, I believed them.
One Half
10-26-2020, 13:43
I was assured the mutt had all it's shots. They looked like a well off couple from Mass with an expensive dog from a breeder, I believed them.
and chances are, because it's MA, the shots are all up to date for licensing purposes. I believe all cities and towns require licenses for dogs in MA and with that license, a current rabies vaccination (they are good for 3 years). The likelihood of a pet dog in MA having rabies is very low.
Once bitten you're never the same... every time you encounter a dog you'll be nervous, and its always the owners fault! Same **** happens at local township park and there are signs everywhere to always leash your dog.
I have low tolerance for idiot dog owners and their shenanigans...
...not to be incentive but does anyone have the right to shoot the dog if it attacks me or someone?
I have a low tolerance for idiots and their shenanigans period !!
Your first post welcome! I think if your firearm is legally carried you can protect yourself from a life threatening situation whether it's man or beast. But having said that there's alot to think about such as people around, houses, cars, ( ie, collateral damage). And a charging dog is going to be hard to hit. Probably the safest way would be to let the dog take leg or arm and shoot point blank
As to not miss and take out the threat.
Now protecting someone else with a firearm i don't know about that one. But if you have a firearm and someone is getting killed by something how do you not protect someone.
Traveler
10-27-2020, 06:00
I'm sure the next person that dog bites will be assured the dog has had its shots too.
Five Tango
10-27-2020, 06:48
I was assured the mutt had all it's shots. They looked like a well off couple from Mass with an expensive dog from a breeder, I believed them.
Since there's records kept on pet vaccinations by their veterinarian,it would not have been unreasonable on your part to require that they prove it or defend a lawsuit.They owed you that much......
Five Tango
10-27-2020, 06:52
Once bitten you're never the same... every time you encounter a dog you'll be nervous, and its always the owners fault! Same **** happens at local township park and there are signs everywhere to always leash your dog.
I have low tolerance for idiot dog owners and their shenanigans...
...not to be incentive but does anyone have the right to shoot the dog if it attacks me or someone?
Actually this has happened before and it did not end well for the shooter who did shoot the two large unleashed dogs that attacked him but then their owner went beserk and the hiker wound up shooting him as well which resulted in the dog owners death.I do not know if the shooter is still in prison or not but the judge did not see it as self defense for some reason..................
stephanD
10-27-2020, 08:22
...not to be incentive but does anyone have the right to shoot the dog if it attacks me or someone?
That's a tough one....many pet owners regard their pet as a family member
LittleRock
10-27-2020, 09:28
again, i will say that sadly this is not a true statement.... with my job that i just got outta of-----i've covered maybe 6 or 7 deaths due to off leashed dogs.....and numerous serious maulings with off leashed dogs.....bottom line, imo, dogs on a leash that are controlled by their owners are going to be safer all around than dogs off a leash.......(and yes, leash size matters).....
Yeah, and down in TN where you are it was not just the unleashed dogs hiking with their owners... it was also hunting dogs that were out on their own with their owners nowhere in sight. One time one of them ran through the shelter area where I was sitting making dinner and took off with my summer sausage which was sitting next to me on the picnic table. I had to chase it 200 yards down the trail and yell at it before it dropped it and ran off. On that same stretch I ran into a thru hiker who made the mistake of feeding one of those hunting dogs and it followed him all the way to Damascus, which was over 30 miles away!
That is a very tough one for sure. But at this point we're talking a real life threatening attack not a nip on the calf. But if cujo is attacking and you have the means to stop the threat shoot. I don't carry a firearm but a may have to stop threat ending the dogs life.
If the pet owner loved their dog like a family member they would protect it and make sure it is leashed and kept back when passing on a tight path.
Ankle Bone
10-27-2020, 12:43
That's a tough one....many pet owners regard their pet as a family member
I'd also shoot your brother if he tries to bite my leg
That seems excessive.
Though if zombies were an active threat, I might think otherwise.
I'd also shoot your brother if he tries to bite my leg
I was going to say something like this. Any member of your family attacks me I'd defend myself as well. And sometimes I wonder who deserves the collar and leash. The pet or some family members. And hey it is zombie season so you never know :eek: !!
TexasBob
10-27-2020, 16:19
That's a tough one....many pet owners regard their pet as a family member
I'd also shoot your brother if he tries to bite my leg
That's why his brother is always on a leash when he is outdoors. :)
I have a low tolerance for idiots and their shenanigans period !!
Your first post welcome! I think if your firearm is legally carried you can protect yourself from a life threatening situation whether it's man or beast. But having said that there's alot to think about such as people around, houses, cars, ( ie, collateral damage). And a charging dog is going to be hard to hit. Probably the safest way would be to let the dog take leg or arm and shoot point blank
As to not miss and take out the threat.
Now protecting someone else with a firearm i don't know about that one. But if you have a firearm and someone is getting killed by something how do you not protect someone.
Thanks for the welcoming JNI64 :) ...much appreciated!
I dont want to sound like a dog hater, Im not by far, as a matter of fact when I go for my daily jog at the park, some of the pooches I encounter are so adorable! when we approach at opposite ends and you see them lower their head ,tongue hanging out , tail swinging and have that "please hug me look" how can you deny!!
...but if you try/bite me due to the negligence of dog owners... "Houston we have a problem..."
You're quite welcome.
I'm by no means a dog hater either. I've always had dogs my whole life , I love my dogs, a few years ago I had to put 2 of them down. I was balling like a baby.
The dog i have now is a 80 lb pitbull. He was my daughters and son in-law dog they used to live with me but moved out feb 2019.
And yeah he's spoiled rotten sleeps with me in a bed, has roam of the house when I'm at work, take walks everyday, always gets bones. My best friend actually. I've had a pretty rough last couple of years and he's been great company and companion.
Yeah if you or your dog try to bite me ... we have a problem...
4eyedbuzzard
10-27-2020, 21:40
Actually this has happened before and it did not end well for the shooter who did shoot the two large unleashed dogs that attacked him but then their owner went beserk and the hiker wound up shooting him as well which resulted in the dog owners death.I do not know if the shooter is still in prison or not but the judge did not see it as self defense for some reason..................
Harold Fish. In 2004, while returning to a trailhead in Arizona, he was attacked by two dogs and then the owner. He was convicted of 2nd degree murder in 2006 or so, went to prison for three years, was freed in 2009 after the conviction was overturned, all the while racking up some $700K in legal costs. He died in 2012 leaving behind an estate deep in debt. https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/casedetail.aspx?caseid=4266
Wow, that's crazy all that poor guy wanted do was get in his car and go home or go get a cheeseburger and some fries. And he didn’t even try to shoot the dogs just to scare them away. After the conviction was over turned they should have reimbursed him.
Obviously they found it justified. He probably didn't have time to shoot warning shots at the man coming at him threatening to kill him. A much harder target than the torso but maybe he could have shot at his legs? But you hit the femoral artery he still dies.
Oh well that's not a smart thing to do to a person holding a gun !
.
Five Tango
10-28-2020, 08:29
Reading between the lines-this was clearly a case of a judge making an example of an armed citizen.Licensed gun toters need to know the real issue starts after the initial issue is over..........
stephanD
10-28-2020, 09:01
Sadly, we will never know if things could/would have turned differently if Mr. Fish did not have a gun and I will say no more about this.
Five Tango
10-28-2020, 17:30
Sadly, we will never know if things could/would have turned differently if Mr. Fish did not have a gun and I will say no more about this.
I'll say something-everyone should carry a non lethal weapon like pepper spray,bear spray,stun gun etc if they do carry a lethal weapon and hope it will be enough before resorting to lethal force because there is always going to be a court case later.
Slo-go'en
10-28-2020, 19:27
When I hiked in Glacier, they made me buy a can of bear spray. Okay fine. But the only place I could really carry it was on the back of my pack. Lot of good it would do me carried there. Oh, could you please just wait a minute while I drop my pack and get my spray out?
That's pretty much the problem with any self defense hardware, how to carry it so it's safe and yet quickly accessible?
Sadly, we will never know if things could/would have turned differently if Mr. Fish did not have a gun and I will say no more about this.
We will never know, but there's a good chance he would have been torn up by 2 large dogs.
When I hiked in Glacier, they made me buy a can of bear spray. Okay fine. But the only place I could really carry it was on the back of my pack. Lot of good it would do me carried there. Oh, could you please just wait a minute while I drop my pack and get my spray out?
That's pretty much the problem with any self defense hardware, how to carry it so it's safe and yet quickly accessible?
Backpack companies should make a holster that attaches to your pack for bear spray.
Time Zone
10-28-2020, 21:53
Backpack companies should make a holster that attaches to your pack for bear spray.
Counter Assault bear spray makes one that can be attached at your belt or maybe pack as well. In fact, my last can - the 10 ounce - came with it. Now they sell it separately, it appears. My new can is the 8 oz and the holster still works, just isn't as snug a fit.
Five Tango
10-29-2020, 05:14
I have the holster for Counter Assault Bear Spray.It is easily suspended from the should strap and hangs upside down for a Fast deployment.
Z-Pack makes a very light weight and functional chest pack that is easily attached to your shoulder straps that will easily hold a can of bear spray if you want to keep it concealed.
BlackCloud
10-29-2020, 12:34
There a couple of bear spray holsters. Use a carabiner to attach it to your waist belt or front pack strap. Also, hang the bear spray upside down; it will come out much easier. If you practice trying to get the bear spray out quickly, you will find that by inverting it, gravity will help you. If you wear it right side up, you will need 2 hands to get it out.
BlackCloud
10-29-2020, 12:47
Once bitten you're never the same... every time you encounter a dog you'll be nervous, and its always the owners fault! Same **** happens at local township park and there are signs everywhere to always leash your dog.
I have low tolerance for idiot dog owners and their shenanigans...
...not to be incentive but does anyone have the right to shoot the dog if it attacks me or someone?
Yes. Self defense against an animal is not the same legal standard as use of force against a human. A dog is what? It is property.
Against a human, you must use "an objectionably reasonable" amount of force to defend yourself. Lethal force can only be used to avoid "death or serious bodily injury". To avoid non-life threatening or serous bodily harm, you can only employ "regular force" ie. a punch, kick, etc.
Against property, you can use any amount of force to avoid any amount of injury. There is no reasonableness standard. Your property can not injury me at all, and I can destroy your property to avoid any level of injury. The law values human life over property rights.
I just want to ask a question about bear spray, does it really work? I never had to use it but I have only hiked locally in PA like sections of AT.
Not too long ago there was a video of a charging bear, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g9aEaESfL0 luckily there were other people shouting which I assume it helped but can you imagine if you were alone? That bear would have not stopped! :eek:
...and so would Bear spray help? thats why I think I prefer to carry a gun, whether dog, bear ect.. I think Id feel safer with a gun.
GoldenBear
10-29-2020, 17:37
so would Bear spray help? thats why I think I prefer to carry a gun
When I say Stephen Herrero has written the book on bear attacks, I mean that LITERALLY
https://www.amazon.com/Bear-Attacks-Causes-Avoidance-revised/dp/158574557X
Here's his opinion on bear spray vs gun.
https://www.outsideonline.com/1899301/shoot-or-spray-best-way-stop-charging-bear
Feel free to ignore science, truth, and facts if you like.
Slo-go'en
10-29-2020, 19:01
The thing about bear spray is you don't have to have really, really good aim.
Just my personal opinion of course but on the east coast in black bear country I don't think you need anything . But I think bear spray would be efficient for any dangerous situation. Them bear sprays go something like 10-12ft and a big spray, probably the biggest concern would be the wind. But a good bear spray would certainly deter a bear, dog, a rabid animal, a rabid human etc.
Found this interesting read on bear spray:
In March 2012, the Journal of Wildlife Management (https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/journal/19372817) published Tom Smith and Stephen Herrero’s “Efficacy of Firearms for Bear Deterrence in Alaska (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jwmg.342/abstract).” The paper’s prosaic title didn’t prevent it from grabbing headlines around the country. For the first time, bear researchers had provided compelling statistical evidence that firearms were less effective in protecting individuals against bear attacks than many folks previously believed, including the researchers themselves. Among their conclusions were 1) that “firearm bearers suffered the same injury rates in close encounters with bears whether they used their firearms or not,” and 2) that “bear spray [has] a better success rate under a variety of situations ... than firearms.”
I just want to ask a question about bear spray, does it really work? I never had to use it but I have only hiked locally in PA like sections of AT.
Not too long ago there was a video of a charging bear, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g9aEaESfL0 luckily there were other people shouting which I assume it helped but can you imagine if you were alone? That bear would have not stopped! :eek:
...and so would Bear spray help? thats why I think I prefer to carry a gun, whether dog, bear ect.. I think Id feel safer with a gun.
And not to be mean but if you're that worried about bears on your local hikes in PA that you have to carry a gun maybe you should find another hobby . Or a slower hiking partner.
Five Tango
10-30-2020, 06:41
Found this interesting read on bear spray:
I carry CounterAssault Bear Spray because I am a lousy shot.Remember to aim low when you spray as the cloud will rise up and envelop the target.
Odd Man Out
10-30-2020, 07:29
...luckily there were other people shouting which I assume it helped but can you imagine if you were alone? That bear would have not stopped!...
Not at all sure how you came to this conclusion. The people filming from some distance away were telling the people not to run (which was correct). They should have also told them to stay together (which they didn't). The shouting didn't help, only because the people weren't listening. I see no reason to conclude that the bear would not have stopped I'd you were alone. Bluff charges are most common, and that happens when the bear is much closer than the video. The research shows that bear spray is the most effective option if you are worried, but learning about bestest should be the number 1 priority.
stephanD
10-30-2020, 08:28
This is what I know of the differences between black bears and grizzlies and if I'm wrong, I would be happy if someone corrects me: The average weight of a male black bear is about 300-400 lbs, a grizzly is more like 800 lbs. Black bears are timid and for the most part avoid humans, grizzlies are fearless. Black bears are mostly scavengers and occasional predators, grizzlies are equally scavengers and predators. That is why I have no issue hiking solo on the east coast, but never in grizzly country.
As the Alligator would say, this thread is about dogs on the trail not bears...
When I say Stephen Herrero has written the book on bear attacks, I mean that LITERALLY
https://www.amazon.com/Bear-Attacks-Causes-Avoidance-revised/dp/158574557X
Here's his opinion on bear spray vs gun.
https://www.outsideonline.com/1899301/shoot-or-spray-best-way-stop-charging-bear
Feel free to ignore science, truth, and facts if you like.
One thing about good science is reevaluating hypotheses as new information or understanding comes forth.
Of possible interest:
https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5y0ItOjaW
Though I hope it would go without saying, the risk posed by a black bear on the AT and a grizzly in AK are not in way comparable.
stephanD
10-30-2020, 09:20
As the Alligator would say, this thread is about dogs on the trail not bears...
My bad.....:)
Though I hope it would go without saying, the risk posed by a black bear on the AT and a grizzly in AK are not in way comparable.
Yes,yes,yes!!
My bad.....:)
Mine too....
BlackCloud
10-30-2020, 15:09
I would love to see the look on a dog owner's face when you spray fido with bear spray.
And not to be mean but if you're that worried about bears on your local hikes in PA that you have to carry a gun maybe you should find another hobby . Or a slower hiking partner.
Not worried at all!! all these round and about questions are for answers and opinions from more knowledgeable hikers than me... Ive always wondered what to carry Bear spray or a gun as my hiking expeditions are getting bolder.
Have plenty of guns in the house just collecting dust..
I would love to see the look on a dog owner's face when you spray fido with bear spray.
LUL ...maybe hit the owner too while at it? ....just saying :banana
This is what I know of the differences between black bears and grizzlies and if I'm wrong, I would be happy if someone corrects me: The average weight of a male black bear is about 300-400 lbs, a grizzly is more like 800 lbs. Black bears are timid and for the most part avoid humans, grizzlies are fearless. Black bears are mostly scavengers and occasional predators, grizzlies are equally scavengers and predators. That is why I have no issue hiking solo on the east coast, but never in grizzly country.
While we are drifting. The only time I would carry something would be if I ever go into griz country i mean real griz country.
Like Alaska, Kodiak or whatever where the grizzlies are walking around like black bears walking around GSMNP .
The size of a soda machine and 6" claws and k-9's.
That's when I would have bear spray on one side and a 44 on the other side.
Five Tango
10-30-2020, 21:40
LUL ...maybe hit the owner too while at it? ....just saying :banana
While my can of gas does say Bearspray on it,I tend to think of it as "dog and people" spray.Would not hesitate to use it on either if the circumstances dictated such.Getting back to dogs on the trail though;I wish people would leave the dog at home as nobody enjoys being harrassed by a dog whether it bites or not,and that would include overly affectionate dogs as well.......
While my can of gas does say Bearspray on it,I tend to think of it as "dog and people" spray.Would not hesitate to use it on either if the circumstances dictated such.Getting back to dogs on the trail though;I wish people would leave the dog at home as nobody enjoys being harrassed by a dog whether it bites or not,and that would include overly affectionate dogs as well.......
...I hear ya! ...its turning into a circus!
psyculman
11-02-2020, 22:27
German shepherd lunged at me right in the Randolph East parking lot. It was perfectly calm and normal till it got right in front of me, then instantly snarled and jumped.
Five Tango
11-03-2020, 07:24
German shepherd lunged at me right in the Randolph East parking lot. It was perfectly calm and normal till it got right in front of me, then instantly snarled and jumped.
Don't leave us hangin' man!What happened next?.....
AsoloBootsSuk
01-07-2021, 14:33
When approached by a loose dog on the trail, I yell "BAD DOG" regardless of it's behavior. It makes it clear to the owner that I am not okay with their dog. They often follow up with, "don't worry, he's friendly" to which I reply, "okay, I'm not". I've never had to do, but I would not hesitate to stab a dog with a trekking pole if it was aggressive. "BAD DOG" has always worked for me
Psyculman left us hanging in his hammock with that snarler......
Traveler
01-08-2021, 08:25
Psyculman left us hanging in his hammock with that snarler......
He was killed, of course...... (rimshot)
I had a dog take a bite out of my shorts while trail running one day. Let's just say I'm glad I wasn't going commando that day...or maybe other park users were glad!
"Hi, good day. Yes, it's a bit cold".
"Hello, I'm more of a grower, not a show-er".
"Genetics, don't blame me".
Toolshed
02-12-2021, 21:04
Having been bit badly once by a neighbor's loose farm dog and ending up in the hospital with Sepsis, but also having owned, trained and bred male & female Brittanies for over a decade, I have no patience for unruly dogs. Any sign of oncoming attack from one gets a hard swipe across their head with my trekking pole, or a few hard punches on their head. I don't give a damn what the owner says or claims ("Oh, He's never done that")
rmitchell
02-12-2021, 22:18
On my last section hike I had an encounter with two dogs just north of Shenandoah National Park. As I was going downhill I saw a young couple taking a break on some rocks off to the right and about 100 feet away. Two dogs bolted towards me snarling.
I froze in my tracks and heard the owners try to call the dogs back but the dogs continued toward me. Both were about the size of my Australian Shephard mix, probably about 70 lbs. The black one stopped about 10 feet from me but the grey one circled around behind me still barking and snarling.
My left treking pole was touching the ground and when the grey dog moved toward my leg I bumped him with the shaft of the pole. Luckily he backed off because I had the right pole slightly raised. I was within 2 seconds of stabbing him with the tip of the pole when he backed away.
The dogs returned to their owners and I moved on. The owners apologized but I was so shaken that I really didn't respond. I should have said something about leashes but didn't want to provoke the dogs with angry words.
It kind of bothered me that I would have injured the dog. I am a dog owner and dog lover. But if it had gone for my leg I would have stabbed him with my pole.
Having been bit badly once by a neighbor's loose farm dog and ending up in the hospital with Sepsis, but also having owned, trained and bred male & female Brittanies for over a decade, I have no patience for unruly dogs. Any sign of oncoming attack from one gets a hard swipe across their head with my trekking pole, or a few hard punches on their head. I don't give a damn what the owner says or claims ("Oh, He's never done that")
Which would most likely end with a broken trekking pole and a broken hand and a much more pissed off pup :mad: !
I wish I could still edit with my ADHD I have a hard time expressing myself sometimes. I want to add I think the pepper spray is probably the safest for dogs as you can protect yourself from a distance and not cause permanent damage.
With my experience and reinforced from what I've read on this thread, leashed dogs are more likely to be dangerous dogs. Free running/roaming dogs are rarely a real threat. This may be because people with more dangerous dogs tend to keep them leashed. This also might be because dogs on leash are more likely to be defensive and/or react in fear while off-leash dogs can maintain what they perceive as a safe distance and/or don't feel the same need to show protection to their leash holder. Either way, I've only ever seen dogs attack people either while they are leashed or when someone walks into what they identify as their home territory (i.e. not loose on a trail).
And, for these reasons, I find it ironic that in these forums that I read of more people complaining about and condemning people for having their dogs off leash than I do about having potentially aggressive dogs anywhere where they have the remote chance of coming into close(ish) contact with other people either on or off leash. In fact, I read of people condemning others for having their dogs off leash based on being bitten by a dog on a leash!!
The problem is not dogs being off leash. The problem is aggressive, or potentially aggressive dogs being anywhere they can come in contact with other people. Condemn bad behavior (on or off leash) don't condemn well behaved animals roaming free.
Tell that to the folks hiking the Florida trail.
Five Tango
02-13-2021, 07:33
I'm all for other peoples rights to take their dog hiking but those of us who don't also have rights to be neither bitten nor intimidated by someone else's dog.If your dog gets more aggressive towards others when leashed then you need to kennel him/her.I had a dog like that once;would Never have considered taking that animal out in a public place....
And besides,if your unleashed dog bites someone or disfigures their child you are going to be on the receiving end of a lawsuit more likely than not.
Traveler
02-13-2021, 09:53
No "right" is absolute, but all rights have responsibilities. Taking a dog onto a public trail comes the responsibility of keeping the dog under control. If the dog does not respond to voice command it is not under control and a leash is required to manage the dog so it does not threaten or cause injury to others. As Five Tango points out, this is the stuff of serious law suits.
Big_Old_Dog
02-13-2021, 10:04
I was day hiking near the AT last summer when an off leash German Shepherd came running at me. I have been chased, bitten, and knocked off my bicycle. So, once bitten twice shy. I could not tell if the dog was friendly or not. The owner was yelling and screaming, the dog had a weird deep growl noise. It stopped just short and went back to the owner. I suppose I gave a disgusted, scared look to the lady who then yelled at me to "Lose the Attitude, Sir!!" I then simply said that I have been bitten and this trail does not allow unleashed dogs. I went about my way.
I had a similar situation this winter while hunting. Yellow lab off leash comes running at me. I was pretty sure he was friendly but all I could think was, I do not want to shoot this dog. Fortunately, he was friendly. The owners caught up and simply said, "You hunting". I should maybe have told them that off leash is not allowed in that forest. I did that once before to a jogger whose dog came at me aggressively. The guy was totally obnoxious as if his little fluffy could never bite someone, yet, he came at me growling and barking.
BlackCloud
02-13-2021, 12:08
There is no "right" to bring one's dog on to a public trail. Land management either allows domesticated animals or it doesn't.
I am surprised by the number of members who have also had negative dog experiences on trails. It is good to know that I am NOT alone with this concern. I suspect that the vast majority of incidents are not "one-offs" as the dog owners pretend. An obnoxious owner on the heels of a an unruly dog just adds injury to insult. I will no longer be nice about this.
Five Tango
02-14-2021, 08:37
Generally speaking,I'm a dog lover,but not in public venues and that would include public hiking trails.....
Traveler
02-14-2021, 09:44
I am surprised by the number of members who have also had negative dog experiences on trails. It is good to know that I am NOT alone with this concern. I suspect that the vast majority of incidents are not "one-offs" as the dog owners pretend. An obnoxious owner on the heels of a an unruly dog just adds injury to insult. I will no longer be nice about this.
Not sure if this is obnoxious or just fair warning, but when I see a dog unattended headed toward me and hear a far away voice yelling, "Don't worry, he's friendly" I immediately respond with, "I'm not". Though it may generate some scowls, it does seem to hasten their speed to recover the animal.
I too am a "dog guy", but unfortunately my experience with unleashed dogs on trails is overwhelmingly negative. Spilling water where resupply is a fair distance away, sneaking up and grabbing/eating food I am trying to prepare, tearing out tent guy lines running around a camping area, being leapt on with muddy paws and tearing pants, and being bitten a few times. As a result I have a very low threshold of tolerance for poorly behaved dogs and their self righteous owners (who always seem to figure it's my fault their dog would make better food than a trail pet).
Though these experiences are not as common as they seem in writing about them, they are nonetheless disturbing. I do understand the allure in bringing the family pooch into the woods but question if people stop to consider if its a good idea bringing the family dog from its normal environment into a wild environment without restraint of leash. Some people just cannot grasp the fact, or just don't care, their dog's behavior can ruin a grand outing for others.
Five Tango
02-14-2021, 11:06
Thanks,Traveler.I was once informed that it was my head gear that triggered their precious doggie.Well,I was COLD!
Well,excuuuuuuuuuussssssssssseeeeeeeee me for triggering doggie!
BlackCloud
02-16-2021, 12:06
I too have been told on countless occasions by a dog owner that their dog's growling or barking was a consequence of my wide brimmed hat. I will hereafter be informing such owners that if their animal is not conditioned to basic hiking attire than the animal is unqualified to be on a trail.
Some horses also get spooked so I remove my hat, if only for the safety of the rider.
And yes Traveller, I am appalled by the owners who are yelling from afar that Fido is wonderful as the savage beast is coming @ me at a full charge....
Dropdeadfred
02-17-2021, 12:53
If the horses are getting spooked by a hat, they too are unqualified to be on the trail.
Horses tend to shy from things they dont recognize... Usually no matter how strange you look, SPEAKING,,, greating of the day for instance, will eliminate 90% of the human/horse interaction. They hear your voice and recognize it as human,, so they ignore you. The ones that wont shouldnt be on trail.
Goes both ways,, other trail users have some responsibilities, but so do the animal owners.
One of the things I like about endurance horses,,, most have seen it all and arnt phased. I do all my training in public parks with trails shared by bikes, joggers, women pushing those 3 wheeled jogging baby carriages. Those are freaky to alot of horses.
Alot of people want to freeze and step off trail,,, usually that makes things worse.
Sadly I do have a few aquainteneaces in my riding circles that expect the world to walk on egg shells because they are on a horse.... Honestly you cant expect that on a public trail, and said rider/horse combo shouldnt be there.
Vast majority of dog issues I have had on trail, dogs wernt really being aggressive but horse doesnt know that and can create a very dangerous situation when the dogs run at or under the horses. Seems they always want to run around to their back legs, Some horses will try to spin to keep them head on, some like mine have really good rearview aim,
Have had more than 1 conversation with an off leash dog owner that went like this.
Me: "get your dog he's sposed to be on a leash"
"Oh fluffy wont bite"
WACK !!!!! dog gets drop kicked end over end.
Me: I wasnt worried about my horse getting bit.
AsoloBootsSuk
02-17-2021, 13:37
...
"Oh fluffy wont bite"
WACK !!!!! dog gets drop kicked end over end.
Me: I wasnt worried about my horse getting bit.
Sad but hilarious. You sound like a good ambassador for horse people
BlackCloud
02-18-2021, 13:12
That's called street justice!
TexasBob
02-18-2021, 13:50
Thanks,Traveler.I was once informed that it was my head gear that triggered their precious doggie.Well,I was COLD!
Well,excuuuuuuuuuussssssssssseeeeeeeee me for triggering doggie!
Once a lady told me the reason her unleashed large dog was growling and snapping at me was "he is only doing that because he smells your fear". Funny thing is I wasn't scared until he started growling and snapping. Amazing the excuses people make up for explaining why it isn't their dog's fault for its aggressive behavior.
OhioHiker
02-21-2021, 08:14
Good idea to get contact info! I never thought of that. Its those little dogs you have to watch, sneaky and fast. Big dogs typically make their intentions clear.
I protect myself/people I am with at all cost. Ive had to kick a dog or two.. the reaction from the owners is priceless! Ive noticed that if you stand your ground usually "family pet" type dogs of any size will back off. You might need to be more assertive than "No!" and "Stop!".
I was a meter reader at a utility company for many years and had more than anyones share of bad dogs. I got bit once by a sneaky small beagle! got me on the calf as I was leaving the yard! Its amazing how much blood comes out of a puncture wound... anyhow I finished my route! :). I also got chased by 2 collies... other than that I respected them and they seemed to respect me... as long as the owner wasn't outside... then its completely different.. Ive been in many situations were the dog would be outside in the yard by itself, we would play and be happy... then the owner seeing me from in the house and thinking he is protecting me from his aggressive dog, comes out side to retrieve fido... Ive seen the switch flip.. from playful to "must protect owner". Didn't turn out well for me every time it happened..
To this day I don't give any pet on trail ANY attention. I definitely don't ignore them. I look at the dog and make sure it sees me, then continue on.. sort of a visual "I see you, I mean no harm". I love dogs, but not other peoples... ;)
"Oh fluffy wont bite"
WACK !!!!! dog gets drop kicked end over end.Me: I wasnt worried about my horse getting bit.
My variation on that theme when Fluffy is growling at me:
Dog owner: "don't worry, my dog's friendly"
Me: "I'm not"I get interesting reactions to that!