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JNI64
10-25-2020, 09:30
Investigators are questioning story of hiker found, say statements " don't add up ". They found Holly Coutier,(someone saw her hammock and reported it ) after 12 days . She was 1/2 mile off trail and where a shuttle dropped her off. Her sister said she fasted for a couple days before she left. She was near a river but the water was toxic and non potable which she was aware of. Her sister said she became disoriented and hit her head on a tree. So let's sum up , 15 days or more without food, 12 days without water, 1/2 mile off trail in the main part of the canyon where 1,000's of people walked by in those 12 days.
I believe inchworm was 1/2 mile or less off trail but much different terrain.

I Googled longest person lived without water and a austrian man went without water for 18 days after accidentally being left in a holding cell In 1979.

The family gofundme has raised $12,000 and they say it will go to rescue efforts, medical and "therapy costs " oh my !

And she walked out on her own.

Venchka
10-25-2020, 10:09
One more advertisement for a PLB or InReach gizmo.
Non potable water in a National Park?
Or maybe we’ll get the real story someday?
Wayne

Time Zone
10-25-2020, 13:07
Investigators are questioning story of hiker found, say statements " don't add up ". ... So let's sum up , 15 days or more without food, 12 days without water, 1/2 mile off trail in the main part of the canyon where 1,000's of people walked by in those 12 days.
...
I Googled longest person lived without water and a austrian man went without water for 18 days after accidentally being left in a holding cell In 1979.

The family gofundme has raised $12,000 and they say it will go to rescue efforts, medical and "therapy costs " oh my !

And she walked out on her own.


Saying that doesn't add up is putting it mildly!

I'd always heard 3 days without water is the typical max. Maybe that's before organ damage starts, not death. In any case, it seems fantastical. There are a lot of attention seekers in the world today, and some of them hike.

GoldenBear
10-25-2020, 13:34
More specific information:
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-24/holly-courtier-zion-missing-hiker
The article clearly states: "Some family members said she drank the river water, which is known to be full of deadly toxins and would’ve likely left her very ill."
In other words, the statement that she went 12 days without water is false.

When she was found, medical personnel reported that she had concussion, and that her dehydration was leading to kidney failure. Obviously (1) she was not faking either medical condition and (2) either can lead to faulty and inconsistent memories of what happened. Thus, it is no surprise that the accounts reported by family members can be highly varied.

Ms Courtier went into Zion without adequate preparation, for reasons she never made clear to anyone -- perhaps not even to herself. No surprise, then, that she got into severe trouble in her quest for -- well, whatever it was she was seeking. Blessedly, she survived this trouble, and needed medical assistance -- an expense that can cost thousands of dollars. It also appears the family is willing to reimburse the cost of the search for her. And it is no surprise that she needs some therapy for (1) this ordeal and (2) whatever possessed to try this in the first place. I thus have no problem if people want to support the family in any of these endeavors -- I choose not to do so, and nobody's forcing me to do so.

So what exactly is your view of what happened?

Time Zone
10-25-2020, 13:39
So what exactly is your view of what happened?


IDK if you're asking me, but I withhold judgment about what actually happened; there's no way for me to know for sure, I would have to rely on information provided by others. My comments related to (and are contingent upon) the assertions mentioned in the OP.

GoldenBear
10-25-2020, 13:42
Why not read the news article, and then reach a far better conclusion? If nothing else, you'll read that Ms Courtier did drink water while out there, and your statement about her surviving without water is pretty meaningless.

JNI64
10-25-2020, 14:08
I read the whole article and for me some things still don't add up. Her family said she was having some sort of mental breakdown, family members also said she wet her lips not drank the toxic water. She left the shuttle with no phone, water, food and only ends up 1/2 mile away with a hammock? And they knew exactly where what time she went missing and started a sar . And a very popular trail with that many people walking by she never heard anyone? I just cannot help but think there's more to this one.
Maybe she didn't even want to be found if she was depressed or having a mental breakdown ...
Anyway I'm glad she's okay.....

gpburdelljr
10-25-2020, 14:11
More specific information:



Blessedly, she survived this trouble, and needed hospitalization in the ICU -- a medical expense that can cost thousands of dollars. It also appears the family is willing to reimburse the cost of the search for her. And it is no surprise that she needs some therapy for (1) this ordeal and (2) whatever possessed to try this in the first place. I thus have no problem if people want to support the family in any of these endeavors -- I choose not to do so, and nobody's forcing me to do so.

I couldn’t find anywhere in the article saying she needed hospitalization in the ICU.

GoldenBear
10-25-2020, 14:33
I couldn’t find anywhere in the article saying she needed hospitalization in the ICU

Which is why I'll change the wording.
When I recognize I've made a mis-statement, I correct it ASAP.

Just like someone saying that Ms Courtier went twelve days without water.

gpburdelljr
10-25-2020, 14:58
Which is why I'll change the wording.
When I recognize I've made a mis-statement, I correct it ASAP.

Just like someone saying that Ms Courtier went twelve days without water.
I also couldn’t find in the article anywhere that said she needed medical assistance. In fact, it said

“They [the Zion team] apparently talked to her and felt she was OK to be released to the family.”

Time Zone
10-25-2020, 15:05
Why not read the news article
Because it's paywalled and I'm not an LA Times subscriber.

JNI64
10-25-2020, 15:20
Some family members say she drank water, other family members say she merely wet her lips. But apparently the water is so toxic it will kill you.
I read it again and what the one sister said about her having a traumatic last couple years and not getting help. And her other sister said she was acting weird a couple days before.
That's why I say maybe she didn't want to be found.
But that's why I also say I'm glad she's okay.

nsherry61
10-25-2020, 15:57
And through all this discussion, this group isn't questioning the assumptions about the water? The park service stated that, based on tests from a couple months ago, the river was deadly if the sediments were disturbed. The cause of the toxic water was(is) the release of toxin from bottom dwelling (benthic) algae. The implication is that collecting and drinking water from the surface, upstream of any disturbance, might be significantly lower in or possibly even absent of harmful levels of toxin. Being a toxic algal event, the issue is likely not a constant, and only periodic in nature, so what was a deadly river two months ago could be relatively safer today.

Finally, the park personnel questioning the story don't appear to actually understand the biology. An unrealistically strong immune system might protect a consumer from ingested toxic algae (which is not the issue in this case). BUT, ones immune system plays little or no role in protection against a toxin released into the water (the case described here).

So yeah, the story if fishy as all get-out. But, the toxic water, as definitive evidence of "fish", is also a flawed argument.

GoldenBear
10-25-2020, 16:07
Because it's paywalled and I'm not an LA Times subscribe
Neither am I, and I had no trouble getting in to read it. Heck, I even have Ad-Blocker, that forces me to permit ads on a specific story. I'm not sure why you were unable to get in.

However, if you spend a few seconds to do an internet search for
courtier zion found
(like I did), you'll find articles like:
https://www.abc4.com/news/southern-utah/sheriffs-sgt-raises-questions-in-zions-missing-person-case-of-holly-courtier/
https://www.foxnews.com/us/zion-hiker-holly-courtier-sister-discrepancies-rescue

GoldenBear
10-25-2020, 16:10
I also couldn’t find in the article anywhere that said she needed medical assistance
Spend a few more seconds doing research, and you'll find this article:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/zion-hiker-holly-courtier-sister-discrepancies-rescue
which states, "Courtier’s family then took her to the hospital, according to the report"

gpburdelljr
10-25-2020, 16:13
As is usual in these cases, we simply don’t have enough facts to really know really happened. We can speculate all we want, but in the end it is only speculation until more data is available.

PennyPincher
10-25-2020, 18:24
I couldn’t find anywhere in the article saying she needed hospitalization in the ICU.

I read she walked out unassisted. Hardly seems like someone suffering kidney failure for sure. I posted an article where the local police are investigating because the sheriff says it doesn't add up. it's in the original thread about this "lost hiker."

PennyPincher
10-25-2020, 18:27
I read she walked out unassisted. Hardly seems like someone suffering kidney failure for sure. I posted an article where the local police are investigating because the sheriff says it doesn't add up. it's in the original thread about this "lost hiker."
here's the article
https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2020/10/22/holly-courtier-hiker-found-zion-national-park-investigators-question-story/
But a sergeant who was involved in assisting with the search has called into question some of the family’s story.
“The statements that the family is giving and the statements the park is giving don’t add up,” Sgt. Darrell Cashin, with the Washington County Sheriff’s Department, said to the ABC station in Salt Lake City.
Authorities said Courtier was found half a mile from where a shuttle had dropped her off on Oct. 6 (https://cbsloc.al/310AHEn).
“She’s in the main part of the canyon, which always has thousands of people walking up and down those trails,” Cashin said to local reporters. “I’m sure people walked by yelling for her.”

TNhiker
10-25-2020, 19:54
As is usual in these cases, we simply don’t have enough facts to really know really happened. We can speculate all we want, but in the end it is only speculation until more data is available.



exactly.....

and probably more data will never be released......

i worked in the news business for 25 years and in situations similar to this-----we just had to report the facts that we handed to us........

99 percent of the time we never really got the full story.............or if we got the full story, some of it might have been off the
record and we couldn't report it.........


there's always more to the story than what's on the face of it.....

JNI64
10-25-2020, 20:23
here's the article
https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2020/10/22/holly-courtier-hiker-found-zion-national-park-investigators-question-story/
But a sergeant who was involved in assisting with the search has called into question some of the family’s story.
“The statements that the family is giving and the statements the park is giving don’t add up,” Sgt. Darrell Cashin, with the Washington County Sheriff’s Department, said to the ABC station in Salt Lake City.
Authorities said Courtier was found half a mile from where a shuttle had dropped her off on Oct. 6 (https://cbsloc.al/310AHEn).
“She’s in the main part of the canyon, which always has thousands of people walking up and down those trails,” Cashin said to local reporters. “I’m sure people walked by yelling for her.”

That is the article I was quoting when I started this thread.
It says a mother and son seen her hammock and notified authorities. And her sister said she went in looking for solitude and off grid a 1/2 mile from the shuttle?
Ok maybe she hit her head on a tree, then what she hangs her hammock up for 2 weeks hanging out ? And doesn’t hear thousands of people walking by some probably yelling for her . Sar also was looking for 10 days. Don't know why they didn't find her? And don't know why she didn't hear their attempts at finding her?

Traveler
10-26-2020, 07:04
Having been involved with SAR/R operations in the past I cannot see a circumstance the incident commander would allow someone suffering from a serious concussion coupled with severe dehydration being released to family. Lots of conflicting "facts" in the way.

Recovery from severe dehydration is not something that can be reversed in a few minutes with a canteen of water. Severe dehydration typically requires 24-hours or more at a hospital for intravenous rehydration at minimum for recovery and monitoring renal and other critical body systems that would be in process of shut down if the victim actually did go 12-days without fresh water. Under standard SAR protocols called LASH (Locate, Access, Stabilize, Transport) I would be very surprised if the incident commander would simply say, "sure, take her home and have a nice day" if the claimed condition of the victim are true.

More information clearly is needed.

BlackCloud
10-26-2020, 10:44
Who goes on a "pre-hike fast"?

My red flag is the fact that the NPS and SAR teams released virtually no information beyond the patient's name and the fact that she had been found alive. Land management officials usually say where a patient was found along with a short synopsis of what occurred and the general condition of the patient. I suspect authorities are deliberately withholding information. The flip side is that the sheriff wants answers as well. The NPS is either withholding the information from him or he disagrees with the decision to withhold the information from the public.

GoldenBear
10-26-2020, 11:13
Who goes on a "pre-hike fast"?
Somebody who's been struggling with mental health issues for years prior to the hike.
https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/10/22/woman-speaks-out-physical/

Some rather important people in history have fasted while being out in the wilderness for a while
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204%3A1-2&version=NIV
so perhaps Ms Courtier thought she could gain some similar "insight" by following this example. It could have led to her death; fortunately, it did not.

JNI64
10-26-2020, 11:52
I guess I sorta get the idea here what she was trying to accomplish. Nothing better than a cleansing and forestbathing right.....
Good news she's checked herself into a mental health wellness clinic.
That article GoldenBear provided says she walked out on her own and family drove her to the hospital. So the mother and her son who saw her hammock called for help and that help called her family to come pick her up? Not a medical team ? I'm just trying to understand this a little more. After 14+ no days without food and at least 12 days without water? Truly a miracle right someone wants her alive!!
And wouldn't that suck to be right next to all that water and be dying of dehydration. you can't drink or you know you die for sure. Kinda like dying at sea.

JPritch
10-28-2020, 21:24
Look at the bright-side...at least she wasn't abducted at gunpoint by two hispanic females.

JNI64
10-28-2020, 23:09
Look at the bright-side...at least she wasn't abducted at gunpoint by two hispanic females.

True that! Or abducted by aliens :eek: !

BlackCloud
11-02-2020, 13:14
What is clear is that the NPS is not working with local law enforcement:

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2020/10/utah-authorities-looking-hiker-who-claimed-she-got-lost-zion#comment-79952

Time Zone
11-02-2020, 15:45
What is clear is that the NPS is not working with local law enforcement:

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2020/10/utah-authorities-looking-hiker-who-claimed-she-got-lost-zion#comment-79952


The wording of your post makes it sound (to me) like the you're saying that the NPS has declined to work with local law enforcement. However, the article at your link suggest the opposite is the case.


"Despite the thorough investigation conducted by the National Park Service, Utah State Code does not grant them the authority to investigate violations of Utah law," the statement [from the Washington County Sheriff’s Office] continued. "Based on our local authority and jurisdiction, ....


It's worth noting that there are federal wire fraud statutes, so the notion that fraud allegations are solely the province of state law is incorrect.

TNhiker
11-02-2020, 22:02
The wording of your post makes it sound (to me) like the you're saying that the NPS has declined to work with local law enforcement. However, the article at your link suggest the opposite is the case.




that's how i read it as well....

BlackCloud
11-03-2020, 14:40
What is clear is that local law enforcement is not working with the NPS.

Better?

CalebJ
11-03-2020, 16:31
And yet still remarkably (intentionally?) misleading.

gpburdelljr
11-03-2020, 18:56
I thought this statement by the Sheriffs office was interesting.

"Based on our local authority and jurisdiction, the Sheriff’s Office had an obligation to the public to investigate the criminal allegations which were being presented. At this point in the investigation, there has been no evidence to support the theory that the incident was committed intentionally as an effort to achieve financial gain. However, we ask that any credible information submitted is based on tangible leads, and/or evidence which can be shared with investigators."

We may never know the full story. Where’s Paul Harvey when you need him?

TNhiker
11-03-2020, 20:57
What is clear is that local law enforcement is not working with the NPS.

Better?





yeah....

this ain't better....

something along these lines is better--

"what is clear is that the national park service has performed their investigation,
but local law enforcement has decided, due to state laws, will also make an investigation
of this case"...........


your wording makes it seems like the two agencies are not working hand in hand and there might be some
animosity between the two agencies in regards to this case.....

BlackCloud
11-04-2020, 15:12
The fact that the Sheriff's Office is asking questions and making such statements within hearing of the media means the SO and NPS are not working together.

CalebJ
11-04-2020, 15:21
You're not making the slightest bit of sense.

nsherry61
11-04-2020, 17:23
. . . Where’s Paul Harvey when you need him?
Apparently he can be found here . . . https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/34294618/paul-harvey#view-photo=16429148

Forest Park, Cook County, IL
Mausoleum, Section 49, Lot 676

BlackCloud
11-05-2020, 13:22
You're not making the slightest bit of sense.

Ok. Let me explain as a former NPS employee and current law enforcement officer.

When law enforcement agencies work together, they either appoint a single public information officer to speak for the task force or each agency PIO shares its talking points with the others to ensure that the same message is presented to the public. This effort ensures consistent information and ensures that case sensitive information is not inadvertently exposed.

That is not happening here.

Here you have silence from the NPS. No details on the rescue whatsoever. That is not normal. Then you have the Sheriff's Office openly asking questions that they either already know the answers to or which the NPS won't share with them. Either way, that is not normal.

Logical conclusion: the NPS and SO are not working well together.

CalebJ
11-05-2020, 14:13
Noted that you believe that.

Also noted that you made a leap of judgement and presented it as fact, twice. One that effectively no one else in this thread sees as rational, regardless of their background or experience.

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

TNhiker
11-05-2020, 15:36
That is not happening here.



just outta curiosity, have you been in contact with the Park's PIO and asked them what sorts of info they have released?

JNI64
11-06-2020, 00:50
Ok. Let me explain as a former NPS employee and current law enforcement officer.

When law enforcement agencies work together, they either appoint a single public information officer to speak for the task force or each agency PIO shares its talking points with the others to ensure that the same message is presented to the public. This effort ensures consistent information and ensures that case sensitive information is not inadvertently exposed.

That is not happening here.

Here you have silence from the NPS. No details on the rescue whatsoever. That is not normal. Then you have the Sheriff's Office openly asking questions that they either already know the answers to or which the NPS won't share with them. Either way, that is not normal.

Logical conclusion: the NPS and SO are not working well together.

First off thank you for being a law enforcement officer and prince George's Co at that, probably worse than Baltimore in some places.

As far as NPS there wasn't much of a rescue was there? They went to where the hammock was spotted and found her and walked her out. That's when she says no need for the hospital just call my sister to come get me.
If that's the way it went down I don't know that the NPS knows anymore, other than what she is saying about what happened.
I don't know what kind of information they could be holding?
The whole thing is just weird ! She only goes a 1/2mile beside a creek that you can't drink out of sets her hammock up leans back and hits her head and is so disoriented for 12 days she can't walk out? Or yell for help? What did she do for 12 days?
But my point is I don't know that anybody NPS, Sheriff’s knows anything to share?
Only she knows right? And maybe Paul Harvey but since we can't ask him........

BlackCloud
11-06-2020, 13:53
Thank you; but I work for Uncle Sam. It's def the way to go.

Kensington is in Montgomery County by the way.

We'll see what if anything happens...

TNhiker
11-06-2020, 14:08
Kensington is in Montgomery County by the way.





yeah.....noticed that last night about the statement of PG county....

we moved outta PG county back in 76 to columbia...

riverdale was getting pretty scary at that time.........

JNI64
11-06-2020, 15:54
yeah.....noticed that last night about the statement of PG county....

we moved outta PG county back in 76 to columbia...

riverdale was getting pretty scary at that time.........

Ok,ok my bad it was late and I had a long day at work.
TNhiker that's where I'm from Riverdale, md I think we moved 74,75 to Damascus, MD. But we lived on newbie ave.

TNhiker
11-06-2020, 16:10
TNhiker that's where I'm from Riverdale



59th street for us in Riverdale.......

My grandmother had a house there as well, then when my dad got back from the service, they got a house up the street...

once we realized how sketchy riverdale was, we went to the burbs...

i was only 6 but could see the marked change....

Traveler
11-07-2020, 08:08
Did you know Archie or Jughead?

Odd Man Out
11-07-2020, 10:06
I grew up in Beltsville. Had lots of friends in Riverdale, College Park, and Hyattsville. Haven't lived there since '79. My summer job in college was driving a delivery van all over DC area. Never found that part of PG County to be sketchy, at least not in comparison to Anacostia.

Dropdeadfred
11-09-2020, 12:42
my grandparents used to live on Riverdale road, house up on hile right on road, looks like area has been developed pretty heavily since the 70's