View Full Version : Bread Crumbs
Teacher & Snacktime
02-07-2021, 13:42
My breadcrumbs, potentially my life savers. I carry a couple dozen of these on my solo hikes, and would like to suggest that others who have concerns about losing the trail do the same or something similar.
Why? Privies on the AT are a bad idea right now, as humans shed virus via feces, so understandably these methane-fueled hot spots are best avoided. For some of us though, going off trail to relieve ourselves can be hazardous, as a moment's inattention or memory-lapse can mean a nervous bushwhack to regain the trail. Wandering two hundred feet off trail in a dense section of forest can be confusing and finding the way back even more so. Clipping these every 10 feet or so on the ends of branches or brush gives me a guide back to the trail ( I have all white for the AT ). Of course I collect them all...LNT and reuse.
They also make great clothespins for your hanging out your wet stuff, so they pull their weight in double duty.
https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/147847470_10218708912021380_6782345378440365940_n. jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=2&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=TdvIJ2eTQvIAX_Bck3E&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=9f8b5faf07c4ae363b0b732d68b35f4f&oe=604509D3
I have not read of the virus being made airborne via feces. Are there any studies indicating spread in this manner?
(But I like the breadcrumb idea!)
Teacher & Snacktime
02-07-2021, 14:01
I have not read of the virus being made airborne via feces. Are there any studies indicating spread in this manner?
(But I like the breadcrumb idea!)
Actually there is a study, but that's not the point of the post and I'd very much like to avoid THAT argument (privy use, ATC, etc.)
I put this on FB and some folks have gone nuts (and become quite rude) over my audacity to suggest avoiding privies, to promote misinformation re: covid, etc. I have done neither.
I get disoriented easily, and came up with this idea (inspired by Inchworm) to take away one source of worry on the trail.
Glad you like the idea.
LoneStranger
02-07-2021, 14:18
Seems like a good plan for folks who might lose track of where they came from. I've been known to drop my pole with the point headed back the way I came. That way when it is time to leave there is no doubt which direction the trail is.
Teacher & Snacktime
02-07-2021, 14:27
Seems like a good plan for folks who might lose track of where they came from. I've been known to drop my pole with the point headed back the way I came. That way when it is time to leave there is no doubt which direction the trail is.
LOL I do that too! Or something like it. I NEVER drop my stick because I know I'll forget/lose it, but I do always mark the direction I want to continue in where I plan to get back on the trail.
I get more paranoid about getting lost every year....at least when I'm hiking solo.
I avoid privies myself - the woods are more hygienic anyway with proper cathole depth, LNT, etc.
Getting disoriented is very easy to do in the woods. Once I went off trail and although I got back on the trail fine, I went in the direction from which I had come and only realized my error a few miles later!
ahhhhh.......so youre the one that posted that on FB...
i didnt read it all the way through-----but hope you remove them when you leave a site....
i can see some left behind, and just being litter...
Teacher & Snacktime
02-07-2021, 14:50
ahhhhh.......so youre the one that posted that on FB...
i didnt read it all the way through-----but hope you remove them when you leave a site....
i can see some left behind, and just being litter...
ALWAYS LNT....I count how many I put out and make sure I collect them all going back. How else could I reuse them?
Breadcrumbs.
So many meanings for this word that I've never heard of.
In our native tounge, breadcrumbs are tiny pieces of bread crust that crumble off the bread when you slice it.
Just had to learn the hard way, that in the US you get your bread readily sliced, so most likely you don't have any real breadcrumbs.
Now you are using the original word for other purposes, one comes in handy in the IT business in form of breadcrumb navigation.
Another one is this tiny piece of plastic in your pic I've never seen before but you are using it for, well, breadcrumb navigation.
Isnt there some old fairy tale about a guy who got lost in a maze because he intended to find his way back by means of some breadcrumbs he dropped on the way in, but that were eaten by pigeons meanwhile?
Breadcrumbs.
So many meanings for this word that I've never heard of.
In our native tounge, breadcrumbs are tiny pieces of bread crust that crumble off the bread when you slice it.
Just had to learn the hard way, that in the US you get your bread readily sliced, so most likely you don't have any real breadcrumbs.
Now you are using the original word for other purposes, one comes in handy in the IT business in form of breadcrumb navigation.
Another one is this tiny piece of plastic in your pic I've never seen before but you are using it for, well, breadcrumb navigation.
Isnt there some old fairy tale about a guy who got lost in a maze because he intended to find his way back by means of some breadcrumbs he dropped on the way in, but that were eaten by pigeons meanwhile?
Lol, that's why we don't leave real breadcrumbs .
Lol, that's why we don't leave real breadcrumbs .
Which we do have readily available in many forms just a metaphor here..
I also agree most of the time the privies are gross anyway I much prefer to poop in the woods. You could also take a little baggie of pink plastic ribbon already cut into 1ft. Pieces and tie one every 10ft , and of course retrieve on your way out.
Is'nt the GPS on the smartphone good enough to find the way back to the path?
I'm using this on my bushwhacking trips all the time and usually the accuracy is down to a few meters.
Teacher & Snacktime
02-07-2021, 16:25
Which we do have readily available in many forms just a metaphor here..
I also agree most of the time the privies are gross anyway I much prefer to poop in the woods. You could also take a little baggie of pink plastic ribbon already cut into 1ft. Pieces and tie one every 10ft , and of course retrieve on your way out.
My reference is from Hansel and Gretel....the trail of bread crumbs back home when they were led into and abandoned in the woods.
Little ribbons won't work for me personally, as my hands are quite arthritic and can't tie. These little clips fit nicely on bush branch tips with no damage, and are easily put on and removed. But yes, any type of trail marker would do.
justhike
02-07-2021, 16:26
Believe it or not, not everyone uses a smartphone. The AT is such a well-marked trail that it's easy to follow without GPS.
as JNI64 mentions, I have seen people use small lengths of bright marker ribbon as 'breadcrumbs'. It weighs basically nothing and can be seen from pretty far away, so you may not need to use very many to mark the way back to trail, for example. I haven't carried it for that purpose (yet) but I probably will. I hike solo as well.
Inchworm's story is so sad....something so simple that might have saved her life if the idea had been introduced to her or if she had seen others doing it and had incorporated it into her routine. That's why we share ideas - there is likely someone else out there who can benefit.
LoneStranger
02-07-2021, 16:27
LOL I do that too! Or something like it. I NEVER drop my stick because I know I'll forget/lose it, but I do always mark the direction I want to continue in where I plan to get back on the trail.
I get more paranoid about getting lost every year....at least when I'm hiking solo.
I am a quadruped after years of using poles. It would be easier for me to forget my pack than my poles ;)
Teacher & Snacktime
02-07-2021, 16:28
Is'nt the GPS on the smartphone good enough to find the way back to the path?I'm using this on my bushwhacking trips all the time and usually the accuracy is down to a few meters.
I learned the hard way that GPS on a phone or ANY device is not always reliable. Some areas of the AT (I know of one specifically) do not register on GPS, or Guthook, or the Killington Police Dept's radar (or whatever they use).
Of course a compass would help, but following the breadcrumbs is SO much easier.
Just to get it right, being a non-native speaker:
Bredcrumbs is the name for those tiny clips, or is it just a name you give to the whole idea of placing tiny pieces here and there along your way off the path, in reference to the Hansel and Gretel tale?
(which is a pretty scary story, btw.)
With respect to the GPS, I find it very relieable, even on my old smartphone.
I usually don't track my way, so the GPS is not running all the time, so it takes 5-10 seconds when switching on the app to get a fix - good enough for to know the rough direction the path is going, and the fix becomes more accurate after some more seconds.
The only time the GPS is really bad and far off is when hiking in a canyon - which is a no-brainer regarding orientation anyway.
Teacher & Snacktime
02-07-2021, 16:48
Just to get it right, being a non-native speaker:
Bredcrumbs is the name for those tiny clips, or is it just a name you give to the whole idea of placing tiny pieces here and there along your way off the path, in reference to the Hansel and Gretel tale?
(which is a pretty scary story, btw.)
It's the reference to the Hansel and Gretel tale, because getting lost in the woods is scary.
The clips are from bread bags, so there's also a little play on words there.
Teacher & Snacktime
02-07-2021, 16:50
The only time the GPS is really bad and far off is when hiking in a canyon - which is a no-brainer regarding orientation anyway.
Or on the AT near Killington VT....not even the PD, the S&R, or 911 can "ping" your location. GPS is completely unavailable. It may well be the only spot on the entire AT completely unlocatable, but I managed to find it.
This is awesome :clap !!
Not laughing at ya ,but with ya thanks!!
At any cost find your way back!!
Besides it has to be metaphor right ?
Bread crumbs = calories = no hikers gonna loose......
After reading the sad story of the lady who died in Maine, lost a short way off the trail, I have no problem with this method. It might save a life...
Or on the AT near Killington VT....not even the PD, the S&R, or 911 can "ping" your location. GPS is completely unavailable. It may well be the only spot on the entire AT completely unlocatable, but I managed to find it.
Thanks for your clarification of you playing with the words a bit.
I know of people marking the trial with ribbon. Nver thought of using Bread Bag ties...
Dropdeadfred
02-07-2021, 18:46
biodegradeable ribbon is easy to come by,,,
A caveat. It seems to be tasty to deer and cattle. Although supposedly deer eat the plastic stuff too, However I strongly doubt it. Folks dont want to admit other people like to sabotage trails.
I also agree most of the time the privies are gross anyway I much prefer to poop in the woods. You could also take a little baggie of pink plastic ribbon already cut into 1ft. Pieces and tie one every 10ft , and of course retrieve on your way out.
some places require one to use a privy....
One Half
02-07-2021, 21:20
Great idea!
When I was reading it I immediately thought how different the story of Inchworm could have been had she used some trick like this. :(
Teacher & Snacktime
02-07-2021, 21:53
Great idea!
When I was reading it I immediately thought how different the story of Inchworm could have been had she used some trick like this. :(
Snacktime and I were in Stratton, ME when she went missing. A memorial - empty boots and her photo - was set up at the trailhead kiosk. The search had been going on only a few days, maybe a week; folks were both hopeful and anticipating heartache. I spent a great deal of time "wishing" strategies to her so she could be found, and identifying with her plight as a woman of her age hiking solo, a "there but for the grace..." emotion.
This little trick was something I came up with when I became disoriented after a pit-stop, and immediately thought of her. Her tragedy can perhaps inspire others to be safe.
You make a controversial claim as the main reasoning behind your idea, then refuse to support or discuss that claim.
You make a controversial claim as the main reasoning behind your idea, then refuse to support or discuss that claim.
that's what my thinking is as well......
it could have easily just been a thread on ways not to get lost while taking a tinkle without mixing
that element into it.....
TwoSpirits
02-08-2021, 09:13
I have gotten off-track a few times in National Forests -- either exploring something interesting or to take care of personal business -- and yes, it can be surprisingly hard to get back on trail. Many, many years ago something like this led to an unplanned November overnight in northern Wisconsin (happily with 3 friends and enough gear & skills to make it actually seem like a fun camping adventure, but it was an important eaching moment.) I keep several strips of bright neon colored surveyor's tape, cut into "flags" that I can quickly loop around tree branches -- always keeping one within the sight of another. As I go back to my trail, I collect them again. They weigh nothing, and take no space in a waist pocket (I also keep a few in my trowel/TP sack.) They have come in handy to mark the way to & back from my pre-dug campsite cat hole, too.
cmoulder
02-08-2021, 09:35
For those for whom this is a regular problem, you're probably (hopefully) carrying a clever little device made specifically for the purpose. A compass.
Let's see, I'm walking due south for 60 steps. So I'll walk 60 steps due north when I'm finished.
Another thing. Never leave pack nor poles nor any other gear unattended at the trail. So if the SHTF and you sill managed to get lost, as least you have your full kit with you.
Five Tango
02-08-2021, 10:28
Mine has a nifty little rotatable arrow on it so I can hightail it back to the trail when ready.
cmoulder
02-08-2021, 10:33
Mine has a nifty little rotatable arrow on it so I can hightail it back to the trail when ready.
Dang! What'll they think of next?? :-?
TexasBob
02-08-2021, 11:34
You make a controversial claim as the main reasoning behind your idea, then refuse to support or discuss that claim.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/09/can-you-catch-covid-19-your-neighbor-s-toilet
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200402/Is-coronavirus-spread-through-feces.aspx
https://www.aha.org/news/headline/2020-05-18-studies-covid-19-virus-can-spread-through-feces-surfaces-contaminated
https://www.cdc.gov/library/covid19/pdf/2020-09_08-Science-Update_FINAL_public-v2.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7332911/
Puddlefish
02-08-2021, 12:12
The longer the trip, the more likely I am to get turned around and disoriented. The first trek into the woods, it's easy to think, right, the trail is that a way. The third or fourth stop, things start to blend into one another. That said, I only need two points of reference, three at most for getting back to the trail. If I go over a rise, which is nice for the privacy, I'll drop my pack at the top of that rise, so it can be seen on the way back. Then a pole pointed toward the pack. I just make a point of not meandering and changing directions. If an obvious direction change in warranted, but really, that's pretty rare, I might drop a pole with the pack to point back to the trail.
Probably a terrible idea if you have a camo-material pack.
I don't leave breadcrumbs, but I do make it a point to take note of my surroundings, and if possible - always go straight uphill to find a spot. For one thing, most hikers are looking down while they hike! Once I've done my business, hike straight back down.
Alligator
02-08-2021, 13:13
For those for whom this is a regular problem, you're probably (hopefully) carrying a clever little device made specifically for the purpose. A compass.
Let's see, I'm walking due south for 60 steps. So I'll walk 60 steps due north when I'm finished.
Another thing. Never leave pack nor poles nor any other gear unattended at the trail. So if the SHTF and you sill managed to get lost, as least you have your full kit with you.A compass isn't necessarily a better option really. Suppose you take 60 steps one direction, there's too many rocks, you go another direction 30 steps because you have to and there are bushes and then you find a spot about 10 paces over. At this point you really have to go, you nearly pop a blood vessel from eating too many peanuts and all you remember is was it 30 steps or 30 degrees?
This could be a short-term memory issue for some, whether age or disability even.
A GPS in rugged terrain may be off quite substantially. If that causes you to misidentify a geographic feature for instance, you might wander around in the wrong spot for a while.
Leo L I believe these plastic items are called "bread clips". One story commonly cited for using breadcrumbs is Hansel and Gretel, but the modern/translated versions differ from the original stories told by the Brothers Grimm to differing degrees.
Teacher I would suggest numbering these with a sharpie and perhaps strictly using a set pacing distance between placement.
Flagging tape is biodegradable and lightweight if you don't carry the whole roll. Longer length and better colors. If you somehow lost your last point, somebody would spot the flagging right quick if you were lost. Anybody working in the woods who spots flagging their first thought is "I wonder what that flagging is for?"
Just wondering, how many times and how far off the trail most of you go for a bathroom break?
As an anekdote, it had happened to me once in the Middle East desert:
Alone in the winter in a rugged valley high up the mountains it was starting to get dark and it was hard to find a suitable spot for the night.
I found one finally in a boulder field, roundish Granite boulders the size of a table strewn in a wide area.
Dropped my pack, and as is my habit I strolled a loop through the area to look and see if there was anything noticeable or dangerous around.
It was pretty cold and it was getting dark quick. My sweat-soaked upper body started to get really cold in the stiff wind, all the boulders looked the same and suddenly I realized I was lost in this bolder field, kind of started to panic and stumble around to find my pack ASAP.
It took me a minute to stop panicking and doing the most reasonable: I walked ever-widening circles and finally found my pack within maybe 20 meters.
@Alligator:
My wife told me that we have those bread bag clips here in Europe, too.
While I understand the basic idea to have something simple to fint the way back to the trail, I don't like the idea to use something cheap and tiny. It may not be a far shot that it might happen another hiker used the same thing and left one behind, so you might be misguided. What leaves to the other concern, something cheap and tiny might all-too-easily be just left behind.
What about using your tent stakes, hanging two or three from the branches on your way off the trail?
This would be easier to spot on the way back due to their size, and you sure will collect them no matter what.
Teacher & Snacktime
02-08-2021, 13:32
A compass isn't necessarily a better option really. Suppose you take 60 steps one direction, there's too many rocks, you go another direction 30 steps because you have to and there are bushes and then you find a spot about 10 paces over. At this point you really have to go, you nearly pop a blood vessel from eating too many peanuts and all you remember is was it 30 steps or 30 degrees?
This could be a short-term memory issue for some, whether age or disability even.
A GPS in rugged terrain may be off quite substantially. If that causes you to misidentify a geographic feature for instance, you might wander around in the wrong spot for a while.
Leo L I believe these plastic items are called "bread clips". One story commonly cited for using breadcrumbs is Hansel and Gretel, but the modern/translated versions differ from the original stories told by the Brothers Grimm to differing degrees.
Teacher I would suggest numbering these with a sharpie and perhaps strictly using a set pacing distance between placement.
Flagging tape is biodegradable and lightweight if you don't carry the whole roll. Longer length and better colors. If you somehow lost your last point, somebody would spot the flagging right quick if you were lost. Anybody working in the woods who spots flagging their first thought is "I wonder what that flagging is for?"
Thank you Alligator....you've explained my reticence to GPS and compass solutions much more clearly than I might have. Yes, memory is a big issue here also. I like the idea of numbering the clips, and 10 feet or so is my placement distance, but of course that depends on the density of the forest/brush. I always make sure I can see the one behind me before moving on.
Alligator
02-08-2021, 14:04
@Alligator:
My wife told me that we have those bread bag clips here in Europe, too.
While I understand the basic idea to have something simple to fint the way back to the trail, I don't like the idea to use something cheap and tiny. It may not be a far shot that it might happen another hiker used the same thing and left one behind, so you might be misguided. What leaves to the other concern, something cheap and tiny might all-too-easily be just left behind.
What about using your tent stakes, hanging two or three from the branches on your way off the trail?
This would be easier to spot on the way back due to their size, and you sure will collect them no matter what.Honestly, professionals use flagging. For instance, when their lives depend on it, escape route flagging (https://www.baselineequipment.com/presco-printed-flagging-tape?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI36TFze7a7gIVGaSzCh1twADmEAQ YBSABEgILTfD_BwE). Lots of other varieties.
Not that it's a bad idea to use the clips, but they are on the small size.
Alligator
02-08-2021, 14:10
If you can read this (https://www.supplycache.com/products/killer-tree-flagging-tuff-stuff) you are too close:eek:.
Honestly, professionals use flagging. For instance, when their lives depend on it, escape route flagging (https://www.baselineequipment.com/presco-printed-flagging-tape?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI36TFze7a7gIVGaSzCh1twADmEAQ YBSABEgILTfD_BwE). Lots of other varieties.
...
We have similar flags or ribbons here in the forests everywhere, nobody really knows who put it there and for what purpose.
Best guess is, it was once placed by a logger who wanted to make clear which trees to fell (or to keep?) and just forgot and left it forever.
Another guess is, it had been a hunter who marked a kill site.
Whatever - I just dislike all this plastic in the forest.
TwoSpirits
02-08-2021, 15:23
For what it's worth, whenever I have used flagging to mark my way back, I always collect it. There's certainly no need to leave it.
Alligator
02-08-2021, 16:04
We have similar flags or ribbons here in the forests everywhere, nobody really knows who put it there and for what purpose.
Best guess is, it was once placed by a logger who wanted to make clear which trees to fell (or to keep?) and just forgot and left it forever.
Another guess is, it had been a hunter who marked a kill site.
Whatever - I just dislike all this plastic in the forest.Professionals use it responsibly;). Whether other uses are appropriate or necessary is not really the subject of the thread. It would be a simple matter to collect this as one leaves and would be in line with leave no trace. If someone is super concerned about plastic (even biodegradable) they could cut up a blaze orange bandana or shirt to make strips.
Thank you, creative Whiteblazers. I, too, find my original heading often needs adjusting once leaving the trail, and needed more than a compass heading. Something quick to deploy and retrieve. Seems like a few flagging tapes attached with bread clips is the answer!
Five Tango
02-08-2021, 20:08
I like compasses and flagging,also reflective tape for night time.If you depart a trail Eastbound,no matter how much twisting and turning you do after that the reciprocal heading of WEST will bring you back to the trail.The problem is whether or not you might unwittingly cross the trail without realizing it so having a little flagging in spots helps.Also like the numbering idea for the flags/bread crumbs.Counting steps or at least keeping time goes a long way in helping to not get lost.
But at night,Nothing beats reflective tape and a good light.I keep reflective tape on my hiking poles and stake one at my tarp and then take the other for a nature call.With a good light it's amazing how far you can see that hiking pole like a beacon in the night......ditto,for tape on a food bag........
Alligator
02-09-2021, 02:19
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Suppose the trail makes a turn like above Five Tango. If you go east but also north from the original trail position (the corner) you wouldn't be guaranteed recrossing the trail by heading west. Eventually you should but that might be quite far away. It might be potentially blocked even or locally the trail may run east west .
Five Tango
02-09-2021, 08:15
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Suppose the trail makes a turn like above Five Tango. If you go east but also north from the original trail position (the corner) you wouldn't be guaranteed recrossing the trail by heading west. Eventually you should but that might be quite far away. It might be potentially blocked even or locally the trail may run east west .
That's why I always carry some flagging.Remember,we are just looking to go 200 feet off trail in the first place.
Not getting out of sight of a known point,like your flagging or a bandanna tied to a bush etc,means you should be able to find the Exact spot you left the trail.If not,the compass provides you a means to travel a straight line until you "hit" something like a stream or road that will at least take you somewhere.
Traveler
02-09-2021, 08:15
Having used flagging tape for years to mark bushwhacking routes with the last person picking them up or picking them up on my return and the occasional needs of nature in unfamiliar forests, I never thought of bag clips, they sound like a pretty good idea. Alligator's example being a reminder trails do not necessarily continue on a given compass direction, presumption of a trail direction has led many to a frightening moment.
Clips would be easier than flagging tape to carry, use, and collect once done with the activity. When set up properly so one has to go directly to the next clip to see the next until the trail or campsite is rejoined, collection should not be an issue. Even if one is missed, given their size, they are fairly unobtrusive unlike flagging tape.
stephanD
02-09-2021, 09:33
When I have to do my business in the forest, I always make sure I have eye contact with the trail. Safety surpasses modesty. also, I always go to the higher elevation. People tend to pay more attention to the decline side than the incline. Saying that, I never hiked (yet) north of Hanover, NH. Inchworm got lost on the 100 miles wilderness. According to the gentleman who wrote the book about her (very well written, BTW), the forest can be so thick, that one can get lost just by stepping a few feet off the trail.
Again, for those carrying a smartphone:
Would it be OK if one had an app like Backcountry Navigator running (without tracking active, so almost zero battery usage - and on my hikes I have it exactly this way) and simply press the one button to set a waypoint when leaving the trail?
Nothing easier than to find the way back to this set point a few minutes later.
colorado_rob
02-09-2021, 10:45
Again, for those carrying a smartphone:
Would it be OK if one had an app like Backcountry Navigator running (without tracking active, so almost zero battery usage - and on my hikes I have it exactly this way) and simply press the one button to set a waypoint when leaving the trail?
Nothing easier than to find the way back to this set point a few minutes later. Yup, no need for anything else, no need on most hikes to even set a waypoint, as the trail is clearly visible on whatever app you're using (in most cases) and your position is a nice comforting little blue dot.
I've never been anywhere on earth where my phone did get a strong GPS signal except in deep slot canyons. BUT, I sure like having my little 0.2 oz button-compass just-in-case.
It really is easy though to "get lost" stepping a hundred yards (~meters) off trail for a poop, so I do get the bread-crumb-tie thing, but I've personally just relied on my eyesight and memory with my phone app as a backup.
OK, 100 meter is quite a distance and if the dump made you dizzy you could get disorientated.
But then, I'm quite regular on this business and select my breakfast&coffee point exactly with this specific second use in mind, so I just had to learn here on WB that this topic can even be an issue.
On my more recent hikes I used to carry two reflective velcro ribbons to wear for safety when road walking in the dark, so I could imagine to use these as sort of bread crumb.
cmoulder
02-09-2021, 12:42
Yup, no need for anything else, no need on most hikes to even set a waypoint, as the trail is clearly visible on whatever app you're using (in most cases) and your position is a nice comforting little blue dot.
I've never been anywhere on earth where my phone did get a strong GPS signal except in deep slot canyons. BUT, I sure like having my little 0.2 oz button-compass just-in-case.
It really is easy though to "get lost" stepping a hundred yards (~meters) off trail for a poop, so I do get the bread-crumb-tie thing, but I've personally just relied on my eyesight and memory with my phone app as a backup.
This is pretty much how I go about things, although I have reverted to the app only a couple of times the past few years but only for a bit of cross-country bushwhacking to make a shortcut thru the woods. The little button compass has been used a few times on those milky overcast days as a 'sanity check' when the sky is a monochrome overcast and it's literally impossible to tell which way is east or west by sun position and time of day... (and also time of year and latitude). The last time I walked the wrong way was on the Cranberry lake loop in the Adirondacks, for about a couple of miles. I came across a junction and literally could not believe I had done this until I looked at the log book which I had signed the previous evening on the way to Olmstead Pond.
I like Harold Gatty's book "Finding your way without map or compass" (https://www.amazon.com/Finding-Your-Way-Without-Compass/dp/048640613X) which uses a lot of natural clues to indicate direction, and details the handrail method (among many others) for navigating. I actually used the handrail method one time when I lost my camp on Giant Ledge in the Catskills. I had strolled over to the eastern side to watch the sunset — carrying no compass or GPS or phone, although I did have a headlamp — and did not notice that heavy fog was moving in. Well in no time flat it was thoroughly socked in, and I wandered around quite frustrated for a while trying to find my camp before I thought of using the technique. So I figured a general direction for east/west based upon tree moss and walked east to the edge of the ledge, made a 90° right turn to walk south for a while, another 90° turn to the west took me to the western edge, and another 90° north turn in due time had me stumbling across my camp in the fog and dark.
illabelle
02-09-2021, 12:58
I wonder how animals navigate in the woods without getting lost. Many have pretty small territories. For example, I read that chipmunks rarely venture more than 1/3 of a mile from their homes. I imagine a chipmunk would become very familiar with each tree, bush, rock, and log within a certain radius, and maybe somewhat familiar with several paths that venture outside that radius. If a chipmunk were trapped and then released in a new territory, how well would it be able to adapt? Would it exhaust itself in frantic futile attempts to find home? Would it crawl into the first hole it found and establish a new home? What does "lost" mean to a chipmunk?
I read that deer, on the other hand, have a home territory that may range from 40 acres to 1000 acres depending on season, availability of food, whether it's a buck or a doe with young. A deer wouldn't become familiar with every hole in the ground like a chipmunk would. How does a deer learn the boundaries of its territory and where the trails are in relation to the food sources? What does "lost" mean to a deer?
If the forest animals are able to navigate in the woods, why is it so easy for us to become disoriented? Are we so lost in our thoughts that we can't see the texture of the vegetation? Are we so so foreign to the forest environment that we can't feel the shape of a clearing, the subtle change in slope, the predominant direction of the breeze?
In no way am I suggesting that the bread crumb concept (or GPS, or compass, or trekking pole, etc) is inappropriate. I'm just wondering why intelligent creatures like humans have such vulnerability to being lost in the woods when it appears that the lesser creatures handle it just fine.
Alligator
02-09-2021, 13:20
GPS is not as accurate as you think, particularly in rough terrain which I said. I will give you a better example. Turn on the location data for your phone. Put your phone down in your house and turn off wifi access on your phone and let it sit there for a number of hours. Then go to google maps and look at your location information in your gmail account or do the find my phone option. I've done this a number of times looking for a family member's or my lost phone. There will be points across the street, in neighbor's houses on both sides, in the backyard etc. The best I can usually say is at least the phone is in the house or in the car in the driveway or in the yard. Shoot you could try it in the woods too if you like you would just need to leave your phone on for a while so watch the battery. You may get a signal and a point but that doesn't mean it is right where you actually are. Ever had your phone's map put your car on the wrong street?
Plus that trail map you are referring to on your GPS, that more than likely comes from a regular map with its own accuracy standard (https://www.gislounge.com/national-map-accuracy-standards-nmas/). So 90% of "well-defined points" must be within the stated tolerance. The other 10% can be grossly off. There's a lot of uncertainty involved with geographic information.
...
I'm just wondering why intelligent creatures like humans have such vulnerability to being lost in the woods when it appears that the lesser creatures handle it just fine.
Guess we humans are too intelligent, always busying our brain with useless highend stuff while not taking care of the most fundamental tasks at hand.
justhike
02-09-2021, 13:32
...so lost in our thoughts that we can't see the texture of the vegetation? ...so foreign to the forest environment that we can't feel the shape of a clearing, the subtle change in slope, the predominant direction of the breeze?
Those phrases strike me as poetry. I think you've nailed it.
Alligator
02-09-2021, 13:32
I wonder how animals navigate in the woods without getting lost. Many have pretty small territories. For example, I read that chipmunks rarely venture more than 1/3 of a mile from their homes. I imagine a chipmunk would become very familiar with each tree, bush, rock, and log within a certain radius, and maybe somewhat familiar with several paths that venture outside that radius. If a chipmunk were trapped and then released in a new territory, how well would it be able to adapt? Would it exhaust itself in frantic futile attempts to find home? Would it crawl into the first hole it found and establish a new home? What does "lost" mean to a chipmunk?
I read that deer, on the other hand, have a home territory that may range from 40 acres to 1000 acres depending on season, availability of food, whether it's a buck or a doe with young. A deer wouldn't become familiar with every hole in the ground like a chipmunk would. How does a deer learn the boundaries of its territory and where the trails are in relation to the food sources? What does "lost" mean to a deer?
If the forest animals are able to navigate in the woods, why is it so easy for us to become disoriented? Are we so lost in our thoughts that we can't see the texture of the vegetation? Are we so so foreign to the forest environment that we can't feel the shape of a clearing, the subtle change in slope, the predominant direction of the breeze?
In no way am I suggesting that the bread crumb concept (or GPS, or compass, or trekking pole, etc) is inappropriate. I'm just wondering why intelligent creatures like humans have such vulnerability to being lost in the woods when it appears that the lesser creatures handle it just fine.Chipmunks are very territorial, they fight. Chipmunks aren't going to go where their butt gets kicked. Trapping and releasing is bad for some species because the animal gets dropped in new territory which may already be claimed and so are at a distinct disadvantage. Different species have various ways of identifying their territory, some examples are scent, scat, sound.
We're usually top of the food chain and not paying attention. If every day you had to navigate around Andre the giant, you'd start learning where the trail goes and how to tell when Andre was around! Plus that pack of wolves, the coyotes, the occasional hawk, etc. But going to the bathroom as a human? Unless you make a point to pay attention, you aren't going to give it anymore attention than at home, which is basically nil.
gpburdelljr
02-09-2021, 13:37
I wonder how animals navigate in the woods without getting lost. Many have pretty small territories. For example, I read that chipmunks rarely venture more than 1/3 of a mile from their homes. I imagine a chipmunk would become very familiar with each tree, bush, rock, and log within a certain radius, and maybe somewhat familiar with several paths that venture outside that radius. If a chipmunk were trapped and then released in a new territory, how well would it be able to adapt? Would it exhaust itself in frantic futile attempts to find home? Would it crawl into the first hole it found and establish a new home? What does "lost" mean to a chipmunk?
I read that deer, on the other hand, have a home territory that may range from 40 acres to 1000 acres depending on season, availability of food, whether it's a buck or a doe with young. A deer wouldn't become familiar with every hole in the ground like a chipmunk would. How does a deer learn the boundaries of its territory and where the trails are in relation to the food sources? What does "lost" mean to a deer?
If the forest animals are able to navigate in the woods, why is it so easy for us to become disoriented? Are we so lost in our thoughts that we can't see the texture of the vegetation? Are we so so foreign to the forest environment that we can't feel the shape of a clearing, the subtle change in slope, the predominant direction of the breeze?
In no way am I suggesting that the bread crumb concept (or GPS, or compass, or trekking pole, etc) is inappropriate. I'm just wondering why intelligent creatures like humans have such vulnerability to being lost in the woods when it appears that the lesser creatures handle it just fine.
Deer have a sense of smell as good as a dog, so they can navigate by smell. I don’t know about chipmunks, but mice leave urine sent markings.
GPS is not as accurate as you think, particularly in rough terrain which I said.
...
Honestly, I don't know about the maps and trails in the US, esp. not about the AT.
But when hiking, just out of pure curiosity I always have the map in my mind and on the phone and am looking for upcoming turnoffs, bends or turns to know ahead where to take care (and still some times I take the wrong turn, my bad...)
So when wandering off the trail by purpose, I know exactly if there is any specific feature of the trail (like a dramatic turn) ahead. This is essentiell for self-protection and modesty anyway, otherwise it could happen (and it did happen to me once - but that was for stealth camping) that while wandering a hundred yards off you again might end up close to the trail after a hairpin turn.
The other thing is, up to my experience modern GPS sensors are very accurate, down to single meter, and good apps do indicate the accuracy of the fix. In any case its accurate enough to give you the idea whether you are veering away from the trail or closing up.
The only time GPS is inaccurate is when hiking inside a canyon, or very close to the bottom of a sheer rock face.
In both cases the geography doesnt leave you many choices, usually its only "up/alongside" or "down/alongside", and while both landscapes are not the ideal place for a bathroom break anyway, its very hard to get lost in both cases.
The only downside of GPS is, if you dont have any, or if defect or out of battery, its useless.
illabelle
02-09-2021, 13:39
Those phrases strike me as poetry. I think you've nailed it.
:)
Not so poetic as the leaves and breeze themselves!
:)
colorado_rob
02-09-2021, 13:42
GPS is not as accurate as you think, particularly in rough terrain which I said...We'll just have to disagree on the GPS accuracy thing, I've never had any of those issues with the apps I use, sorry. Guthook and Backcountry navigator have never failed to dial me in to within a dozen yards or so of any trail/track, and I do a whole lot of "bushwhacking" all over. Google Maps maybe not, though I haven't done that test. Maybe I will, just for fun.
Yeah, some GPS tracks of a given trail can be off by quite a bit, but that won't prevent me from getting back to a good spot using my phone. But all of the Guthook tracks I've used to date have been pretty spot-on (including the AT, PCT, CT, CDT, LT). No wifi/cell service involved, phone always on airplane mode.
I'm just amazed at the GPS accuracy on plain old cellphones these days; A couple years ago, I experimented with laying down a track using a couple year old Garmin 30CX dedicated GPS unit and my cellphone in my pocket. the cellphone track was much smoother, no drop outs or weird jig-jags. The Garmin had some of those, as I had noticed in the past.
...I'm just amazed at the GPS accuracy on plain old cellphones these days...
Similar story here.
We were hiking in the desert, my friend was tracking with his Garmin, I did the same using my then-new Sony smartphone.
He lost his Garmin, and we decided to go search for it the following day when we would be in the area again.
During the search, while following the track on my phone I had the impression the blue dot was a tiny bit off from the recorded track to one side, so I took a few small steps in the opposite direction, to get track and dot aligned perfectly.
When done I looked down to the ground - and my feet were standing exactly on the my own footprints from the hike up the other day.
OK, open desert sky is the perfect condition for GPS reception. But still, amazing!
illabelle
02-09-2021, 14:02
...We're usually top of the food chain and not paying attention. If every day you had to navigate around Andre the giant, you'd start learning where the trail goes and how to tell when Andre was around! Plus that pack of wolves, the coyotes, the occasional hawk, etc. But going to the bathroom as a human? Unless you make a point to pay attention, you aren't going to give it anymore attention than at home, which is basically nil.
Deer have a sense of smell as good as a dog, so they can navigate by smell. I don’t know about chipmunks, but mice leave urine sent markings.
Andre the Giant??? LOL
If I'm walking off-trail to use the bathroom, I guess I'd better be paying attention!
And that's kinda what my question is about. When I intentionally leave the trail, it seems like I should be able to absorb information (because I'm paying attention) about where the vegetation is thicker or more green or taller, about which way the shadows fall, about the way the terrain dips or rises over here or there, about the nature of the ground surface (rocky, leafy, damp), about a singular notable object (the only tuft of grass, a large pile of bark at the base of a tree, a cluster of deadfalls). And if I'm paying attention, it "should" be easy for me to return. Even if I fail to pay attention, once I finish, why can't I at least read the tracks of my path to the cathole for at least 10-12 feet to know the direction back? Did I not step on something? Did I not turn to avoid or lift my feet to cross an obstacle? Did I not leave a trace? And yet, despite the signs that logic says must exist, am I either too blind or too ignorant or too arrogant to look for them?
cmoulder
02-09-2021, 14:09
Same here. Usually I find phone, handheld and watch GPS accurate to within what I call "pissing distance" ... which seems appropriate for this thread.
Screen shot of GPS/satellite for a recent hike. The "Begin" marker is within a couple of feet — if not inches — of where my car was parked. Track is from Suunto Ambit3 wrist unit.
47287
Teacher & Snacktime
02-09-2021, 15:01
I wonder how animals navigate in the woods without getting lost. ..... In no way am I suggesting that the bread crumb concept (or GPS, or compass, or trekking pole, etc) is inappropriate. I'm just wondering why intelligent creatures like humans have such vulnerability to being lost in the woods when it appears that the lesser creatures handle it just fine.
I imagine instinct and an acute sense of smell play into this. Like taking a dog for a walk and they stop and pee every 50 yards....they'll never get lost or not be able to find their way home.
Teacher & Snacktime
02-09-2021, 15:14
About electronic navigation....I'm a big fan. I have Guthooks, and All Trails Pro, and have myself a fine time bushwhacking and navigating in my local forests with these....I am fearless and confident. HOWEVER, if the stakes of getting lost are higher, I will not bushwhack and will pay greater respect to the forest...even if just wandering 200 feet. (Consider trying to walk 200 ft in a straight line in GSMNP, or attempting to recreate your path back....not easy.)
GPS? Heading southbound on the AT just before Quinn Mtn, turn left onto what you believe is Chateauguay Rd because your Guthooks is confused and tells you it is. In 100 yards you are completely unlocatable by your own devices and by all those of the local police, 911, and S&R. They cannot tell you where you are reliably within 10 miles. GPS IS NOT ALWAYS RELIABLE (try using it in Boston or NYC, or follow it in Providence and you end up in the bay).
Anyway, my point is, I don't want to have to worry. I use this little trick because I won't have to pay attention (important if I'm tired) but can just follow my breadcrumbs back to my starting point on the trail. It's not for everyone, but from what I gather it works for quite a few.
Traveler
02-09-2021, 15:25
And that's kinda what my question is about. When I intentionally leave the trail, it seems like I should be able to absorb information (because I'm paying attention) about where the vegetation is thicker or more green or taller, about which way the shadows fall, about the way the terrain dips or rises over here or there, about the nature of the ground surface (rocky, leafy, damp), about a singular notable object (the only tuft of grass, a large pile of bark at the base of a tree, a cluster of deadfalls). And if I'm paying attention, it "should" be easy for me to return. Even if I fail to pay attention, once I finish, why can't I at least read the tracks of my path to the cathole for at least 10-12 feet to know the direction back? Did I not step on something? Did I not turn to avoid or lift my feet to cross an obstacle? Did I not leave a trace? And yet, despite the signs that logic says must exist, am I either too blind or too ignorant or too arrogant to look for them?
Tracking is a perishable skill and not everyone can capture the micro-cues necessary to "read the ground".
In dense brush like laurel, sub-alpine terrain, and krummholtz for example one can easily get turned around given the density of the brush that won't necessarily provide an indication of the direction of arrival into a specific spot. I have gotten turned around in that stuff and was surprised how easily it happened. A lot of lost hiker searches begin with, "Hey, I gotta find a place to go" (akin to the curse of "hold my beer and watch this").
While GPS is a handy tool that never fails or run out of battery when most needed :eek:, there are times when something "old school" simple like the bread bag clip idea are all that's needed to help find the way back to the trail in unfamiliar places. Already I'm thinking how to orient the clip opening so it points at the next clip on the way out much as the knot in surveyors tape points to the next flag.
Alligator
02-09-2021, 16:14
Same here. Usually I find phone, handheld and watch GPS accurate to within what I call "pissing distance" ... which seems appropriate for this thread.
Screen shot of GPS/satellite for a recent hike. The "Begin" marker is within a couple of feet — if not inches — of where my car was parked. Track is from Suunto Ambit3 wrist unit.
47287Nearly the whole bottom portion of the track you are off the green path. Then heading north it zigzags until you cross the road, and that section is in open conditions.
Yesterdays google location track for me shows three points hundreds of feet off the highway I was on. Brand new Galaxy S20 Note.
Here's some test data. https://medium.com/@importanttech/we-tested-mobile-gps-gnss-accuracy-and-found-some-surprising-results-b9ec35873e2e
colorado_rob
02-09-2021, 17:04
Nearly the whole bottom portion of the track you are off the green path. Then heading north it zigzags until you cross the road, and that section is in open conditions.
Yesterdays google location track for me shows three points hundreds of feet off the highway I was on. Brand new Galaxy S20 Note.
Here's some test data. https://medium.com/@importanttech/we-tested-mobile-gps-gnss-accuracy-and-found-some-surprising-results-b9ec35873e2e Cool article, and it supports the point that GPS's are plenty accurate for not getting lost. What's a dozen meters?
One little tidbit: GPS accuracy does tend to be slightly worse the further north one goes (or south in the southern hemishpere, I would suppose). My Garmin had more scatter in my Alaska hiking/climbing than in the lower 48. More atmosphere to look through to the satellites, and probably fewer satellites above the horizon at any given time. That test was done in Montreal, though that's probably not far north enough to matter.
And who cares that cmoulder's yellow line is what, 2 meters off the actual road?
Interesting that Iphones are less accurate though.
One key point is that mention that "moving accuracy" is better than static accuracy, something folks should try to remember. Unless you're in a tunnel or something, your GPS coverage will vary quite a bit in the trees and a good App should collect the data and sort through what's correct or not given a few minutes.
And yeah, google ain't good enough for this, certainly, I've seen that as well.
There is of course always user error, like not taking an extra battery pack when relying on electronics.
I won't say anything more except that I don't think we should be leaving anything in the forest, like flags or even bread-ties. I know you all say you'll collect them, but surely if this is common practice, some will be left behind. Just my opinion, of course.
Regarding accuracy of GPS, as far as I know once you get a fix and move off away and get the next fix a few minutes later, the location between the two fixes relative to each other is very precise, even if the fixes are off in absolute measures.
So if you pin a waypoint right when you head to the bushes, your GPS will find the waypoint again with very high precision.
Of course assumed that the Selective Availability stays switched off, as it is since over 20 years now.
This is due to the fact that within some short time (say, 10 or 20 minutes) and within short range many of the bad influences to the GPS system and reception of the signals will not change, like weather, atmospheric influences, general geography, time drift, drift of other sensors, using the same satellites.
Sorry, forgot to add:
The only time when GPS failed me was in a heavy snowstorm in the desert.
cmoulder
02-09-2021, 18:22
Nearly the whole bottom portion of the track you are off the green path. Then heading north it zigzags until you cross the road, and that section is in open conditions.
Yesterdays google location track for me shows three points hundreds of feet off the highway I was on. Brand new Galaxy S20 Note.
Here's some test data. https://medium.com/@importanttech/we-tested-mobile-gps-gnss-accuracy-and-found-some-surprising-results-b9ec35873e2e
Actually we were walking on snow and following some other tracks and couldn't really see the road, so the track might have as little as 0 or maybe 2-3 feet of error.
Does anyone require more accuracy than that for hiking?
Yes, we all know that when a GPS unit is stationary that it will get some weird spikes, and occasionally (sometimes frequently) crazy spikes while moving. I once walked under a large steel tower that suspended high-voltage electric wires and got a spike that registered a waypoint something like 2 miles away, with an indicated speed of something like 587 mph. I know that dense tree cover (especially when wet) and obstructing landforms can cause signal reflections that distort the track. But overall it's still pretty darn good.
Alligator
02-09-2021, 18:22
Cool article, and it supports the point that GPS's are plenty accurate for not getting lost. What's a dozen meters?
One little tidbit: GPS accuracy does tend to be slightly worse the further north one goes (or south in the southern hemishpere, I would suppose). My Garmin had more scatter in my Alaska hiking/climbing than in the lower 48. More atmosphere to look through to the satellites, and probably fewer satellites above the horizon at any given time. That test was done in Montreal, though that's probably not far north enough to matter.
And who cares that cmoulder's yellow line is what, 2 meters off the actual road?
Interesting that Iphones are less accurate though.
One key point is that mention that "moving accuracy" is better than static accuracy, something folks should try to remember. Unless you're in a tunnel or something, your GPS coverage will vary quite a bit in the trees and a good App should collect the data and sort through what's correct or not given a few minutes.
And yeah, google ain't good enough for this, certainly, I've seen that as well.
There is of course always user error, like not taking an extra battery pack when relying on electronics.
I won't say anything more except that I don't think we should be leaving anything in the forest, like flags or even bread-ties. I know you all say you'll collect them, but surely if this is common practice, some will be left behind. Just my opinion, of course.
A dozen meters is almost 40 feet. It could be telling you are on the wrong side of trail for instance. Could put you past a switch back. Suppose you weren't paying attention but rely on your blue dot. I randomly drop you 40 feet from your location. You just walked about 200 ft in. Now find the trail. Plus what do people say, "I need to find some bushes"?
Cmoulders line is about 2 meters off in open terrain practically, while he was claiming potentially inches. I don't know what side he may have been walking on, I just assumed he was on the green pathway/road.
This is my phone hanging on a hook in my coat pocket, top floor but inside the building, while I had PT yesterday.
The far point is after the appt.
47288
Honestly, my drive track is very off from Google IMO but there are multiple points it wasn't, even on the way home in the same area. Very interesting was that when I zoomed in and out the satellite photos changed and my location changed as pictured on the map. That's a georeferencing issue. Not sure what your "base map" image is in whatever apps you use, but how well it is georeferenced is important as well. We have national map standards, I don't know whether there are any common standards for aerial and satellite imagery.
I don't use any markers myself to go to the bathroom. I do sometimes end up in a different spot. I go pretty far out when I am camped because I know others don't always do that and I don't like surprises. I don't think everyone needs this method but it may be useful to some who find themselves far from where they left the trail more frequently than they would like.
I did lose my car at a big airport once, flying can be stressful. Take a good picture of the lot!
lonehiker
02-09-2021, 18:52
I've always found that if you just "pay attention" when leaving the trail it is easy to get back to it. But, life is just harder for some people than it is for others...
cmoulder
02-09-2021, 19:03
Cmoulders line is about 2 meters off in open terrain practically, while he was claiming potentially inches.
What I mentioned specifically was my parked vehicle's location: "The 'Begin' marker is within a couple of feet — if not inches — of where my car was parked."
Ah well, we're now into the realm of 'angels dancing on the head of a pin' so it's moot.
All I can say is that if it ever reaches the point that I need more accuracy than that to hike, it's time to hang up my Altras.
cmoulder
02-09-2021, 19:42
I've always found that if you just "pay attention" when leaving the trail it is easy to get back to it. But, life is just harder for some people than it is for others...
;)
(my message was too short)
Ah well, we're now into the realm of 'angels dancing on the head of a pin' so it's moot.
What shall we say, shall we call it by a name
As well to count the angels dancing on a pin
Water bright as the sky from which it came
And the name is on the earth that takes it in
We will not speak but stand inside the rain
And listen to the thunder shout
I am, I am, I am, I am
Alligator
02-10-2021, 03:46
I've always found that if you just "pay attention" when leaving the trail it is easy to get back to it. But, life is just harder for some people than it is for others...I find that people who think they are perfectly attentive all the time are FOS. Nobody is attentive 100% of the time. No need to be derogatory either. Like you couldn't make an error in direction? Yeah ok. People make mistakes, don't think you are going to belittle someone who may have memory issues, ADHD, cognitive problems or simply has a concern about getting lost. There are plenty of accounts here of people getting turned around on trail under ordinary conditions.
And the rest of you guys. I showed you a point cloud that varied by tens of feet for a stationary phone. It was there around 30 minutes, maybe 15-20 data points. Plus you completely ignored the possibility of errors in the gps base layer. All I had to do was look at yesterday's data. One of the first things taught in geography courses is how the representation of the world is over simplified and full of uncertainty. You're taking a 3 dimensional object and forcing it onto a 2 dimensional space.
Last, if you are actually 200 ft off the trail for your potty break, that's over 60 yards. I've walked through some laurel thickets that far that would bust you up on a wet day. Forget straight, you take the path of least resistance. Or some young spruce stands where you'd have a hard enough time with a compass keeping a straight line. I have bushwhacked a lot of miles with a new GPS in rugged terrain to predetermined points only to have the gps recalibrate. For instance, the gps unit telling me I was 70 ft away and heading straight in for 40 ft and still be 70 ft away.
I hope none of my (our) texts here was understood as belittlement or to put somebody down.
Each of us here has made errors, was turned around or got lost, nobody is perfect.
My purpose in pointing out the abilities of GPS is, that almost everybody has it, uses it and takes great care of the device (keeps it charged und undamaged) anyway.
Why not use it for the purpose it was designed for from the beginning? Belive me, it works. And if it doesn't, you know at the very moment you try to set the first waypoint when leaving the trail - and then you may resort to another means to not get lost when doing your business off trail.
I have one tiny concern when using some small plastic items for this purpose on a regular basis: You may try to do your best, but you sure over time will fail to collect absolutely 100% of all pieces you've used, so a small percentage will get lost and remain in the woods.
After some years and hundreds or thousands of hikers doing so, the woods (especially the areas that are suitable for getting off trail) will be cluttered by hundreds of tiny plastic items left behind.
This will just add to the litter thats already there, like toilet paper, wet wipes, and all the litter people leave along the trails anyway.
Again, I'm not pointing at the original poster here in person. I'm sure she/he, as most of the hikers, takes great care of her/his stuff.
But still it happens that an item gets lost.
We are doing dayhikes here almost daily (due to lockdown we are not able to do bigger things, unfortunately), and very many people do the same.
The edges of the trails are covered with such small litter things like paper handkerchiefs, candy wrappers and such.
Not that people are specifically careless - its just a matter of sheer numbers.
Traveler
02-10-2021, 08:55
I don't think anyone is beating up on consumer GPS, it has proven to be reasonably accurate when used in macro-navigation applications. Being off by 40-feet is not really a big deal when driving places, in boats, flying in a plane, or hiking a well defined trail. Micro-navigation is where problems can be as accuracy tends to decay inside the 20-meter level, especially in heavy canopy. 40-feet can be a very big deal in dense forest where vision is limited to a few feet. Alligator brings up an excellent point, if that 40-foot error shows you on the opposite side of a trail you just stepped off of, the problems start to magnify quickly.
GPS works until it doesn't. Some people depend on it exclusively, others carry GPS but also have other navigation tools as back up like maps, compass, and flagging tape (adding bag clips to the list) for off trail route marking along with electronic devices. Some people do not have an innate sense of direction or have tracking skills deep enough to be of use in these situations, having additional means to find their way makes sense.
I agree with something you didn't say explicitly, but I'm reading between your (and others) lines here:
If anybody is aware of navigational issues to a degree that she/he is using flags, clips or whatever to make sure to find the way back to the trail, most likely the person is aware of navigation to an extent that the additional help by those little helpers would not be necessary at all.
Alligator
02-10-2021, 12:11
Leo L. I was speaking directly to lonehiker regarding being derogatory, not you.
I agree with something you didn't say explicitly, but I'm reading between your (and others) lines here:
If anybody is aware of navigational issues to a degree that she/he is using flags, clips or whatever to make sure to find the way back to the trail, most likely the person is aware of navigation to an extent that the additional help by those little helpers would not be necessary at all.Necessary is not the criteria to use in my opinion. Might it have merit or be useful, yes. If I was putting out flagging for navigation, it would be because I felt it was the most expeditious way to get back and forth to where I was going. If I were to use it for this purpose, I would have it as readily accessible as my TP and hand sanitizer and it takes about 10 seconds to tie flagging with only several pieces necessary depending, plus collection time afterwards. Less time than getting a fix with a cold gps unit and more foolproof. Not a good idea to start moving before you have a decent number of satellites fixed either BTW.
FWIW I recently spent two summers navigating to random points in the forest with a very good consumer grade gps in conditions of full canopy and rugged terrain. That issue of where the GPS would say, and I slightly exaggerate, but it would say point is 82 feet away and after traveling towards the point about 30-40ft it might still say it was 80 ft away. Or I would be almost on top of the point (<10 ft) and it would shift 50-60 ft. Roughly, this would happen about 20-40% of the time. The unit was used for road navigation too, no issues.
.
Maybe I'm using GPS different than you do?
I'd start the GPS (without tracking) the moment I start hiking and am looking on the GPS every now and then, especially when expecting special features of the trail, or like when I'm going to need a break, in order to find a good spot for it, like a lookout point or a clearing or a stream/lake.
So while it may take 20 seconds to get the first fix in the morning, it most likely will take 5 seconds to get any subsequent fix.
Maybe the online-maps are less accurate in the US than here around?
Honestly, I've never encountered such issues with the GPS like you are describing, unless I was trapped in a landscape where GPS will not work good enough, like canyons and aside steep faces.
I am very sure that the GPS itself works the same in the US than over here in Europe. We have Galileo in addition (which should be more accurate), but I doubt my old device can use it.
Maybe you have more dense overgrown, tree covered forests?
I don't know.
The only time I was in the US, using GPS, was in the NPs of the West. The GPS I had then was actually a very poor one inside a digital camera and it was amazing that the GPS put pretty correct data on the shots I made, even the names of sights I've pointed at.
Five Tango
02-10-2021, 13:07
After all this discussion I decided to go weigh my flagging.Four pieces of bright orange flagging weigh in at 7 whole grams! I suppose it's only limitation is line of sight visibility,so as long as you can see it you know which way you're going for the return to the last known position.
A friend of mine is a dedicated GPS user and we use it quite a bit in a local river horse trail area that has numerous little trails all over the place.We've never had a problem finding our way with it but I personally will always have have a compass and some sort of map or knowledge like "West to the River,East to the Highway" so it's not that big a deal.I do have issues at times following a trail or knowing if I am on the correct one but GPS will save the day most of the time.I always try to have an additional days worth of food or at least some snacks just in case.
Alligator
02-10-2021, 19:41
Maybe I'm using GPS different than you do?
I'd start the GPS (without tracking) the moment I start hiking and am looking on the GPS every now and then, especially when expecting special features of the trail, or like when I'm going to need a break, in order to find a good spot for it, like a lookout point or a clearing or a stream/lake.
So while it may take 20 seconds to get the first fix in the morning, it most likely will take 5 seconds to get any subsequent fix.
Maybe the online-maps are less accurate in the US than here around?
Honestly, I've never encountered such issues with the GPS like you are describing, unless I was trapped in a landscape where GPS will not work good enough, like canyons and aside steep faces.
I am very sure that the GPS itself works the same in the US than over here in Europe. We have Galileo in addition (which should be more accurate), but I doubt my old device can use it.
Maybe you have more dense overgrown, tree covered forests?
I don't know.
The only time I was in the US, using GPS, was in the NPs of the West. The GPS I had then was actually a very poor one inside a digital camera and it was amazing that the GPS put pretty correct data on the shots I made, even the names of sights I've pointed at.You'll get a fix as soon as you have a minimum number of satellites. As a unit adds more satellites the position will be recalculated. Depends on how fast your unit captures the satellites. Usually a screen where you can watch the unit acquire satellites.
Galileo is a newer system with higher accuracy. I was using a Garmin Oregon 650 which I don't think uses Galileo. US GPS under good conditions is accurate to 5m, Galileo to 1m. I do believe it was more of a terrain and vegetation issue. I was working in mountainous terrain full overhead canopy varying slopes. New phones may have access to Galileo but they may not.
When you are talking about your points of interest you are mentioning places that may be off by small amounts that you really don't notice, lake a stream or a lake. Also, what units are you using for position degrees? Degrees minutes seconds? What's the scale of your screen set at? There are only so many pixels to work with, a pixel may be a lot or a little on a small screen. Unless you have an actual monumented point for ground truth, you won't know how much you are off from it. Walking a straight line isn't always possible because there are trees and bushes in the way. A few twists and turns, digging a hole, squatting down, covering it back up and you might be turned around and not know it. If you happen to have had a poor fix with your gps unit, there's potential to be a little lost for a little bit.
You know "online maps" can be created from paper map data. It takes a lot of money to ground truth points, depending on what you think the satellite is recording. For a long time a lot of the data was old in the US, having been created before satellites during times when there were more people working for the government at the agencies responsible. Geographic information though has uncertainty to it, it's a model of the real world, it's not perfect and can be off in ways that people aren't even aware. You've never cursed at your map for being off? "Stupid map, that was not 6 miles!"
The smartphone I'm using since many years is a Sony Z3 compact. Tiny screen, but high resolution.
The maps I'm using vary, here in Austria I'm using the official highly detailed map of Austria (original scale is 1:50.000).
Yes, in some places the map is wrong, missing roads that got built recently, trails that got rerouted, etc.
But thats more fun than issue, at least to me.
Right now I'm sitting in my office, ground floor NE corner room, walls have cooper tubing for heating which usually makes signals poor, and the blue dot indicates that the device sits outside the house snuggled to the NE-corner of the building.
So the fix is off by a few meters - inside the building, which usually is no good for GPS.
In the Middle East desert I'm running Backcountry Navigator using various online maps based on satellite images.
There are no marked and defined trails, but tracks of local Bedouins and navigation is a whole different beast there.
On the one side, GPS has optimum reception conditions due to no canopy, clear sky, wide open horizon.
On the other hand, navigation is, aside of finding water, the most important task of the whole trip, so I'm fully alert at all times and highly concentrated on not getting lost.
We did a lot of comparison between handheld GPS and my smartphone, and found a good Garmin to be a tiny bit more accurate and more quick with new fixes, but overall the Smartphone does the job better for me.
The smartphone failed to get a fix in a snowstorm once, that was the only time it let me down.
All together, I'm not seeing any technical issue that would forbid using GPS.
On the contrary, there are lots and lots of features that makes it convenient and perfectly suited for hiking.
Guess its down to a matter of personal preference to use it, or not.
Maineiac64
02-11-2021, 07:24
I've always found that if you just "pay attention" when leaving the trail it is easy to get back to it. But, life is just harder for some people than it is for others...
I’ve found some people lack empathy and sensitivity and learn to appreciate their solitude.
Alligator
02-11-2021, 14:28
The smartphone I'm using since many years is a Sony Z3 compact. Tiny screen, but high resolution.
The maps I'm using vary, here in Austria I'm using the official highly detailed map of Austria (original scale is 1:50.000).
Yes, in some places the map is wrong, missing roads that got built recently, trails that got rerouted, etc.
But thats more fun than issue, at least to me.
Right now I'm sitting in my office, ground floor NE corner room, walls have cooper tubing for heating which usually makes signals poor, and the blue dot indicates that the device sits outside the house snuggled to the NE-corner of the building.
So the fix is off by a few meters - inside the building, which usually is no good for GPS.
In the Middle East desert I'm running Backcountry Navigator using various online maps based on satellite images.
There are no marked and defined trails, but tracks of local Bedouins and navigation is a whole different beast there.
On the one side, GPS has optimum reception conditions due to no canopy, clear sky, wide open horizon.
On the other hand, navigation is, aside of finding water, the most important task of the whole trip, so I'm fully alert at all times and highly concentrated on not getting lost.
We did a lot of comparison between handheld GPS and my smartphone, and found a good Garmin to be a tiny bit more accurate and more quick with new fixes, but overall the Smartphone does the job better for me.
The smartphone failed to get a fix in a snowstorm once, that was the only time it let me down.
All together, I'm not seeing any technical issue that would forbid using GPS.
On the contrary, there are lots and lots of features that makes it convenient and perfectly suited for hiking.
Guess its down to a matter of personal preference to use it, or not.So while I was pointed out some of the uncertainty involved with GPS and GIS, it's this small scale situation I am referring to. The development of GPS and its evolution and use over the past 25 years has been pretty fantastic in general. Smartphones too, phenomenal how many items are condensed into a phone including now a decent gps unit. Problem is, people start to take for granted all the features and don't realize that even the original devices have their limitations, imperfections, and idiosyncrasies. It's just a black box.
Neither Teacher nor I have stated this is something everybody should do. I didn't because I do think there's the potential to loose clips (they're small) and you would have to do it every time you lose site of the trail and that's not going to be needed for everyone. But I never begrudge somebody for using a reasonable accommodation for a disability, cognitive impairment, age, or even not talented directionally. Now having not used the exact method, I proposed an easy way to keep track of the clips. If you find you are losing them, adjust placement or go with flagging. On that short a run and time period, as long as you tie it tight, there's no reason whatsover anybody should lose flagging. The flagging you may see in the woods is meant to either be there or they were too lazy to go back and get it, if it's tied that is. Loose,torn flagging is different as it's not meant to be long term, that's what paint is for. The greater the amount of time the flagging is out the more risk of it coming untied or breaking. Twenty minutes shouldn't be an issue.
Five Tango
02-11-2021, 15:17
Most of the time here in the SouthEast I can pretty well see a likely spot 200 feet distance and usually just stake a hiking pole in the ground upon departing the trail but I make a point to note my magnetic heading just in case a reciprocal heading might be in order.Flags are for more serious situations.And most of the time my phone battery is charged anyway and it has GPS which has always been adequate so far..........
gpburdelljr
02-11-2021, 15:54
You can use this website to see if your phone uses Galileo. Most newer phones do.
https://www.usegalileo.eu/EN/inner.html#data=smartphone
Ankle Bone
02-12-2021, 12:56
I like it. Nice lightweight idea for those who want the extra information.
Based on what I read regarding Geraldine Laragy, may have been helpful.
Slo-go'en
02-12-2021, 13:54
I was following tracks in the snow up a local 52WAV trail recently and at some point realized the tracks were no longer following the trail. Had only gone about 100, maybe 150 feet before I had the "this doesn't seem right" feeling. Looked like a backcountry skier started blazing their own trail through the hardwoods. A quick look at the GPS showed that, yes we were off trail. With the GPS we were quickly able to locate the actual trail, which was untracked and despite the lack of blazes.
Even if your not getting pin point accuracy for some reason, even an app like Guthook will point you in the right direction and once going the correct direction the AT is easy to find. Yea, I know, electronics can fail, so carry a big ball of string as a back up :)
Alligator
02-12-2021, 15:39
I was following tracks in the snow up a local 52WAV trail recently and at some point realized the tracks were no longer following the trail. Had only gone about 100, maybe 150 feet before I had the "this doesn't seem right" feeling. Looked like a backcountry skier started blazing their own trail through the hardwoods. A quick look at the GPS showed that, yes we were off trail. With the GPS we were quickly able to locate the actual trail, which was untracked and despite the lack of blazes.
Even if your not getting pin point accuracy for some reason, even an app like Guthook will point you in the right direction and once going the correct direction the AT is easy to find. Yea, I know, electronics can fail, so carry a big ball of string as a back up :)You had your own ball of string, your footprints/track in the snow. Plus you were following a ski track, which doesn't typically wind its way through heavy bushes. With all the leaves off the trees and less vegetation too. It's not surprising that at 100-150ft off the trail you were able to determine you weren't on the trail according to the GPS. But yeah, tracks in the snow are about as good as a ball of string.
People seem to be thinking the map layer they are using is going to be correct. Besides what I mentioned about national map standards, trails data is often not up to date. Big trail like the AT, the centerline yes, but national forest and wilderness trails not so much. On a national forest, you could get swapped onto a logging road that's not on the map layer your gps is using or even a deer track. Trails often follow old logging roads until they don't, even the AT will do that on you. The AT will be blazed but a more local trail probably not so much.
Five Tango
02-13-2021, 08:13
I am SO OLD that I remember an black and white era television program,SEA HUNT,starring Lloyd Bridges (father of Jeff Bridges).One takeaway I got from the show was that Old Lloyd NEVER went scuba diving in a cave without his ball-o-string....so there's no reason that wouldn't work....
Teacher & Snacktime
02-13-2021, 12:09
hose your hiking partners carefuyhttps://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/150005005_4052783708088914_9135520433657506370_n.j pg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=tFSa06OOf_gAX8BppKK&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=301532f9403eb9e353dab644c9201e25&oe=604EDADC
One Half
02-13-2021, 12:54
I think finding your way back to trail is a lot of things. Using what you need to assist you is smart. Identifying a need and ignoring it is stupid. I don't NEED it but I can leave a hiking pole or 2 to mark my way. I actually painted the bottom part a bright orange so they can be seen in the woods. Also, makes them less likely to be stolen as it makes them kind of ugly. :D
Some of us have an innate sense of direction. MOST of us DON'T. I do. Many years ago coming back from a backpacking trip I fell asleep as #theotherhalf was driving. This was a trip we had done several times and the first time I fell asleep for him to navigate on his own. He woke me up at one point and asked me where we were! I quickly figured it out. We had diverted to NH "somehow" from western MA to Boston. (yep, pretty hard to screw that up). Without any road signs around, and on a highway I had probably been on less than 3 times headed north, I looked around and instantly knew we were either just north or south of Concord. We were south and saw an exit sign in a few minutes. Turns out we were on 93 but since we were living in Boston/Quincy we had always gone up through North Conway to hike in the Whites. This was back more than 23 years ago where people generally used maps or POSSIBLY used a set of google directions you would print out.
I haven't hiked in a couple of years now unfortunately except at the local nature preserve which is way too hard to get lost in. I hope my sense of direction holds true.
hose your hiking partners carefuyhttps://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/150005005_4052783708088914_9135520433657506370_n.j pg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=tFSa06OOf_gAX8BppKK&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=301532f9403eb9e353dab644c9201e25&oe=604EDADC
Oh no them birds should have gone with the "string theory ".
Five Tango
02-14-2021, 08:20
Confession is good for the soul.My brother and were in Arizona in a rental car and got on the interstate highway headed in the wrong direction and it took a while to realize the exit signs for unfamiliar towns just didn't seem right!
This was about 30 years ago,no cell phone,gps,social medai,email.Nothing but Rand McNally and I didn't have one!
illabelle
02-14-2021, 12:59
Confession is good for the soul.My brother and were in Arizona in a rental car and got on the interstate highway headed in the wrong direction and it took a while to realize the exit signs for unfamiliar towns just didn't seem right!
This was about 30 years ago,no cell phone,gps,social medai,email.Nothing but Rand McNally and I didn't have one!
About 15 years ago we left East Tennessee headed to Arkansas. It was evening, my husband was driving as I napped. I opened my eyes and saw a double-digit mile marker. Interstate 40 goes east-west straight through Tennessee and Arkansas and beyond. Mile markers start at the west end, and increase as they go east. We should have been in the high 300s, not a 2-digit!
He had taken I-75 south. Why, I'll never know.
Teacher & Snacktime
02-14-2021, 13:13
I have an uncanny sense of direction, I really do. Unfortunately I also have a condition that when extreme fatigue sets in, so does any mental acuity or focus. Case in point:
Drove to NJ to meet up with a friend for a hike from MOC to DWG. I left home at 3am to get there for a 7:30 meet at DWG, and we had a wonderful 10 mile hike finishing up around 5pm. From there we stopped at Hot Dog Johnny's to refuel, and parted ways....her to home in eastern NJ and me to southern NJ to visit friends.
I started feeling the effects of the long day about halfway to Trenton, but since it was a pretty straight shot, I just continued on these familiar, often-travelled roads. It wasn't until I was less than 2 miles from my destination that the "fog" hit. I had absolutely no idea where I was. I pulled over, called my friend, told him what I could see in front of me, and he spoon-fed me directions to the house. (I was sent to bed immediately upon arrival...no unpacking, no greeting, just rest).
A few hours later I was fine and we laughed over my senior moment and I was chastised accordingly for allowing it to occur.
So, I claim again that I have a great sense of direction, but if tired enough, I can get lost crossing the street. Rote behavior and personal emergency training (and little things like bread crumbs) represent lifelines for me when there's no one to call. I would not have the faculties to interpret GPS or read a map. I rely on methods that do not require analysis, just obedience.
Either that or I give up hiking, and we know THAT'S not going to happen. :D
Slo-go'en
02-14-2021, 13:14
You had your own ball of string, your footprints/track in the snow. Plus you were following a ski track, which doesn't typically wind its way through heavy bushes. With all the leaves off the trees and less vegetation too. It's not surprising that at 100-150ft off the trail you were able to determine you weren't on the trail according to the GPS. But yeah, tracks in the snow are about as good as a ball of string.
People seem to be thinking the map layer they are using is going to be correct. Besides what I mentioned about national map standards, trails data is often not up to date. Big trail like the AT, the centerline yes, but national forest and wilderness trails not so much. On a national forest, you could get swapped onto a logging road that's not on the map layer your gps is using or even a deer track. Trails often follow old logging roads until they don't, even the AT will do that on you. The AT will be blazed but a more local trail probably not so much.
The tracks in the snow did help get us back to where we should have been. Of course, if there were no snow we probably wouldn't have lost the trail in the first place. My partner generally has the ALLTRIALS route loaded into her phone and it will beep if you get off route. It has saved us from going to far the wrong way a couple of times when not paying attention to trail junctions. It is pretty darn accurate. For some reason the trail we were on was not in the database for a preprogrammed route, but the trail was on the map.
I have a free map on my phone and I have yet to find a trail it doesn't track very closely. Of course, there is the possibility of encountering a trail with a recent relocation which hasn't found it's way onto the digital maps yet, but that is fairly rare.
String theory can go bad for chicken, really...
http://www.davidgorman.com/maxundmoritz.htm#Erster_Streich
...Either that or I give up hiking, and we know THAT'S not going to happen. :D
Sure nobody (at least not me) wanted to distract you from hiking, and doing it your way.
Five Tango
02-14-2021, 18:25
I have an uncanny sense of direction, I really do. Unfortunately I also have a condition that when extreme fatigue sets in, so does any mental acuity or focus. Case in point:
Drove to NJ to meet up with a friend for a hike from MOC to DWG. I left home at 3am to get there for a 7:30 meet at DWG, and we had a wonderful 10 mile hike finishing up around 5pm. From there we stopped at Hot Dog Johnny's to refuel, and parted ways....her to home in eastern NJ and me to southern NJ to visit friends.
I started feeling the effects of the long day about halfway to Trenton, but since it was a pretty straight shot, I just continued on these familiar, often-travelled roads. It wasn't until I was less than 2 miles from my destination that the "fog" hit. I had absolutely no idea where I was. I pulled over, called my friend, told him what I could see in front of me, and he spoon-fed me directions to the house. (I was sent to bed immediately upon arrival...no unpacking, no greeting, just rest).
A few hours later I was fine and we laughed over my senior moment and I was chastised accordingly for allowing it to occur.
So, I claim again that I have a great sense of direction, but if tired enough, I can get lost crossing the street. Rote behavior and personal emergency training (and little things like bread crumbs) represent lifelines for me when there's no one to call. I would not have the faculties to interpret GPS or read a map. I rely on methods that do not require analysis, just obedience.
Either that or I give up hiking, and we know THAT'S not going to happen. :D
If you have not seen a doctor about your condition I would like to urge you to do so.Sounds like low blood sugar issues to me but I have no medical knowledge or training...........
Teacher & Snacktime
02-14-2021, 18:36
I have Lupus, diagnosed almost 30 years ago. Like many autoimmune disorders, It relapses and remits, and the “fog” is a common and annoying symptom and result of extreme fatigue during periods of relapse.
Yes, it is similar in effect to a blood sugar issue, but much more easily controlled unless I’m stupid and forget my limitations. Just to be on the safe side, I work out “just in case” provisions to deal with some of the problems.
Traffic Jam
02-14-2021, 18:38
Teacher, I admire your innovation! If it works for you, keep doing it. I have had a scare or two when bushwhacking to get water. It’s very easy to get turned around, even with a good sense of direction. The scariest part is being 100% sure that you’re following the exact route back to the trail, only to find out that you’re wrong. It’s very disorienting.
Teacher & Snacktime
02-14-2021, 19:11
Sure nobody (at least not me) wanted to distract you from hiking, and doing it your way.
Actually, on a different forum, I was told that if I couldn’t pay attention then I had no business being on the trail. Not everyone plays nice. But to those who have offered encouragement and support along the way, and there have been very, very many, I extend all my thanks. Overall, I’ve had a fine time..
Traffic Jam
02-14-2021, 21:06
Actually, on a different forum, I was told that if I couldn’t pay attention then I had no business being on the trail.
lol! They are the hikers who think they’re doing something “unique” and “dangerous”...that they alone have the particular skills and knowledge to survive the outdoors. Oh my, if they knew half the stuff that I’ve done yet managed to survive...
People never fail to amuse me.
Hike on, Teacher.
Alligator
02-14-2021, 23:25
The tracks in the snow did help get us back to where we should have been. Of course, if there were no snow we probably wouldn't have lost the trail in the first place. My partner generally has the ALLTRIALS route loaded into her phone and it will beep if you get off route. It has saved us from going to far the wrong way a couple of times when not paying attention to trail junctions. It is pretty darn accurate. For some reason the trail we were on was not in the database for a preprogrammed route, but the trail was on the map.
I have a free map on my phone and I have yet to find a trail it doesn't track very closely. Of course, there is the possibility of encountering a trail with a recent relocation which hasn't found it's way onto the digital maps yet, but that is fairly rare.I know for a fact that for the forest I worked for two summers there were hiking trails not digitized and hiking trails not delineated on the regular published maps. Even forest roads are not aways digitized or shown on the map layer. Sometimes even the forest roads that are shown and/or digitized aren't actually there anymore. Some really old maps are digitized and imported into GIS. The level of infallibility you are claiming simply doesn't exist. Essentially you are claiming that trails on all public lands are mapped and digitized as well as every trail showing on your map layer is accurately portrayed everywhere within like a foot or two as well as forest and other improved/unimproved roads are too. That's nonsense.
I think the discussion about accuracy and relieability of maps and GPS is drifting off a bit here.
The point where this thread started was, to have a means of finding the way back to the trail after doing your off-trail business.
I'm 100% sure that, no matter how accurate your map is, or if you even use any, your GPS will bring you back to the exit point within a few yards - and that should be good enough to find the trail by your eyes.
In the given case of T&S, having some known disorder issue occassionally, I would highly recommend to let the GPS run in tracking mode and just carry it in the pocket.
Then use any other means of orientation, be it breadcrumbs or whatever, for your convenience - but still have the GPS as a backup system hot and running.
If ever your other system fails on you, you still have the backup of GPS.
This is what I'm doing on all my hikes, basically:
I have a pretty decent sense of orientation and know my position on my imaginary map at all time.
I consider the GPS I'm carrying as a means of backup.
Life is too worthy to gamle and put it on risk.
We only have one life in this real world.
Alligator
02-15-2021, 14:27
I think the discussion about accuracy and relieability of maps and GPS is drifting off a bit here.
The point where this thread started was, to have a means of finding the way back to the trail after doing your off-trail business.
I'm 100% sure that, no matter how accurate your map is, or if you even use any, your GPS will bring you back to the exit point within a few yards - and that should be good enough to find the trail by your eyes.
...You keep making statements like that last statement even after I provided you with real data points and truthful testimony regarding inaccurate way point resolution. I have had several graduate level GIS courses and periodically take continued trainings in GIS. There is not 100% certainty in what you say, not with a consumer unit. Your unit will record a point cloud when stationary and every once in a while an outlier will get recorded. (Look up statistical outlier). If an outlier gets recorded as your waypoint, you won't be going back to where you left. When you don't have a good understanding of the tool you are using, that's a good way to get hurt.
I've done grid searches with up to 20 people in open but sloped terrain. In a grid search people space evenly and and walk in parallel lines. Invariably there are people who can't walk a straight line. I've done point to point sampling in heavy vegetation using a mirrored compass where points were spread a little farther (hundreds of yards) and visibility is limited to the bushes and saplings in your face and arrived more than 10 yards deflected. (I also hit points spot on). Numerous times I have homed in on a waypoint where no straight line was reasonably possible without unnecessary effort, requiring circling around. I've followed directly behind people and shorty ducks under a branch and I step right and suddenly the two of us are separated because the available pathways change. A straight line isn't always possible and a series of small turns may put you someplace unexpected.
A big factor for this potential issue is heavy vegetation which I recommend avoiding if possible but sometimes you just have to go.
Best bet is to leave the unit on at all times but that's battery intensive, particularly on a multi-day hike. Even then, do you know the interval for recording points? How well is the unit set up for what you are doing. Do you know what map layers it has and where that data comes from how old it might be? Or do you just turn it on and since nothing bad ever happened nothing bad ever will?
Slo-go'en
02-15-2021, 18:07
Okay, but I would hazard to say the vast majority of us are hiking on well documented and mapped trails. Definitely the case for the AT, all the White Mountain trails and the parts of the CDT and CT I've been on.
If you get off trail for some reason, either on purpose or accidently, all you really need to know is in which direction to head to get back to where your suppose to be.
Dan Roper
02-15-2021, 20:08
Back in the '80s, Clemson played in the Orange Bowl in Miami. Excited alumni spray-painted tiger paws down I-95. You know how far they got before running out of paint?
Richmond.
Alligator,
Obviously you are way better educated in this respect than I'm, me only having personal experience and no dedicated education (aside of reading popular articles about it, occasionally).
You know way more about things that can go wrong while using GPS - I know, by 6 years of using my flimsy smartphone GPS extensively, how surprisingly well it works.
I just was out for an overnighter in difficult terrain (difficult for hiking, difficult conditions, and hard on the GPS) and I tried and tested, having this thread in mind, my smartphone's GPS several times.
Every time the blue dot, as well as the mapped trail route, the scarce blazes and an older track from a previous hike were within at least a 20 meters range (most of the time, much closer). Good enough to find the way in the night on just a small headlamps beam.
So while GPS is not something I would easily hang my life on, if I had to chose whether to rely on breadcumbs or my GPS, the decision would be an easy one for me.
Obviously we have different opinions, I'll leave this now for good.
Alligator
02-16-2021, 14:57
Alligator,
Obviously you are way better educated in this respect than I'm, me only having personal experience and no dedicated education (aside of reading popular articles about it, occasionally).
You know way more about things that can go wrong while using GPS - I know, by 6 years of using my flimsy smartphone GPS extensively, how surprisingly well it works.
I just was out for an overnighter in difficult terrain (difficult for hiking, difficult conditions, and hard on the GPS) and I tried and tested, having this thread in mind, my smartphone's GPS several times.
Every time the blue dot, as well as the mapped trail route, the scarce blazes and an older track from a previous hike were within at least a 20 meters range (most of the time, much closer). Good enough to find the way in the night on just a small headlamps beam.
So while GPS is not something I would easily hang my life on, if I had to chose whether to rely on breadcumbs or my GPS, the decision would be an easy one for me.
Obviously we have different opinions, I'll leave this now for good.You're right, I did bring up multiple ways your unit could be "off". You keep claiming your experience is valid and then when I offer my experience you ignore it. I'm not saying your past experience is incorrect. I said, GPS (GIS) data is not as accurate as you might think. Then you tell me that being off 20 meters is just fine:rolleyes:. Lot of hubris there. Twenty meters is not very close at all. Twenty meters of thick vegetation, people will simply try to walk around, which is how the whole process of getting lost starts. This problem is limited to about 65 meters to begin with. It's often a series of small errors that get people lost, from a little to a lot.
You could slip and crack your screen on a rock. I have never broken my phone screen. Should I expect it to never happen? Keep putting your faith in a device where all varieties are not rugged. I don't care if you do. I only care that you represent it's functionality honestly.
It's like telling a car driver to be careful of black ice, which is clear ice over asphalt which makes the ice hard to see. They might have 10 years of driving experience in Texas. I mean look at what happens when it snows in the south, it's a disaster. I would say to people visiting in Maine, watch out for black ice. The road might look just fine, but if you don't know it could be there, you might be in for a big surprise. But whatever Leo, if you want to be Florida man be Florida man!