Is Stoveless a safety issue

[Big_Old_Dog]

I am not sure if this belongs in cooking. I am planning NOBO start in late April/Early May from Springer. I hate to cook. I do like warm tea but can live without it. I won't cook. I am perfectly content to eat cold food. I have a lot of long distance bike packing and bike touring experience but limited backpacking with my longest being 30 days in pretty cold and snowy conditions in Colorado like 4 decades ago. I usually only take a stove with me on the bike if I know it will be cold, wet, and remote. The few times I needed the stove, I was very happy to have it. Otherwise, I just eat on the go with whatever I can buy locally.

I am worried it will be cold enough in the Smokies in early or mid May that I probably should bring a stove even though I don't want to. I always go as light as makes sense but also always bring one temperature layer lower than expected low temperatures. I have a feeling I won't use the stove (MSR rocket that uses isobutane and I have a light pot). I would not want to ever make a fire, but I suppose some cotton balls with vasoline or a few freetos could be used to make a fire if I was real cold. I will have a tent, R4 air mattress, Katabatic Palisaides with 2 extra oz of down, and a lightweight down anorak puffer with lightweight merino underwears. Expected average low are 43F per y research but I don't believe it, I think 30F is more realistic with potential for one night into the 20's is very possible.

Can somebody with hiking wisdom help me make a good choice? I am very green so to speak. Am I stupid not to carry a stove at that time of year? Please be honest with me. I am not sure if my thought process is correct. Thank you.

[lonehiker]

Your thought process is correct.

[SoaknWet]

Better to have and not need then need and not have. There's stoves out there that weigh nothing but get the job done when you need something warm just as a pick me up.

[CalebJ]

I don't see it as a safety issue in May, but it can certainly give you an emotional boost if you need it.

[Big_Old_Dog]

I think my stove is about 3 oz and a 110g cannister is 7 oz and my pot is 3 oz. So, it is 13 oz. It is also space. Logically, it makes sense to leave it home. My gut says bring it and then ship it home. Part of this issue is that I have a bad back and that is why I don't want to take extra weight if it is not needed. I don't expect my pack to ever weigh more than 15 pounds even with a long carry, so, 13 oz is relatively a lot if not used. Thanks for the comments and advice so far.

[Tipi Walter]

I pulled an 18 day no stove trip back in April 2015 and it doesn't work for me.

A big part of backpacking is Managing Discomfort and a stove increases my comfort levels---with more food options available. I.E. Less discomfort.

Plus, eating no cook snack foods all day is hard on the teeth and may crack them or remove crowns etc.

Food is a big deal for backpackers and the no-cook option means you'll never have hot coffee/tea or scrambled eggs or hot oatmeal or a decent ramen meal---and don't discount the psychological benefits of hot meals most esp in cold temps.

[Dropdeadfred]

buy an esbit kit,, but word has it,,, there is all kinds of fuel along the way...... a Bic lighter and some know how can be your stove,,, personally I dont go to the 7-11 without the means top build fire

[Traveler]

For these kinds of decisions I use an old bromide, "If there's a doubt, there is no doubt".

To help make your decision, here's a common scenario most everyone who does this runs into in some form or another:

A weather front stalls and sets up a multiple day rain, taking normal temperatures of 80 degrees into the 50 degree range with a 20 mph wind. Windchill drives temps into the low 40s/high 30s. Horizontal wind driven rain finds every entry point in rain gear as you walk to the planned campsite. Rain eases and fog/mist develops that is carried on the wind, permeating most any remaining dry clothing you are wearing. The ground is saturated, every rock and root a potential slip, your pace slows, you start to feel colder, decisions start to get a little difficult as hypothermia tests you and stage 1 begins. Daylight fades out before you reach the planned camping area and you have to make camp in the dark just as the heavy wind driven rain starts up again soaking you further, along with everything as it comes out of the pack. Your struggle with the tent in heavy rain and wind is maddening, you get impatient with things, you leave the pack uncovered because you are rushing and wind opens it to the weather. You manage to get the tent set up after a while but most all of your gear is now soaking wet. You are beyond wet and starting to shiver and you do not have a beanie hat to slow the immense heat loss from your head draining your body of heat and energy. Not much of a chance to get a fire going given conditions, so you close the tent and try to bundle up in wet clothing to warm as best you can but it doesn't happen, shivering becomes more intense. You have some cold water to drink but water has gotten into your snacks and food. You are leaving stage 1 hypothermia and entering stage 2.

Do you think something hot to drink would help right now?

[GoldenBear]

A cat stove
https://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/
weighs almost nothing, can be made for a couple of bucks, and uses isopropyl alcohol as fuel. It will make a hot coffee in the morning, and some hot bullion in the evening if you need it. That and some vaseline cotton balls should be enough to handle any situation.

[justhike]

I did a 5-week section this past fall starting late September through October (Springer Mtn NOBO to past Erwin).
October climate 'averages' are pretty similar to April.
I was in the Smokies ~ Oct 12-19. I had several nights in the thirties and one night that dropped below freezing.

I am a cold soaker - no stove. Never built a fire (I generally don't end my days early, and prefer not to have much down-time at camp; just looking for a place to lay my head!). My emergency "heat" is a lighter in the event I did need to build a fire (in wet conditions as described by Traveler, that might be pretty worthless, unless you happened to be at one of those shelters with a fireplace inside - several of those in the Smokies; in a circumstance such as an injury where I am unable to hike for a day or so - twisted ankle sort of thing - it might be useful).

I never felt as though my lack of stove put me in any danger safety-wise.

The psychological benefit of a warm drink is a totally different question in my mind. Some people can't imagine not having a fire at camp, or a hot cup of coffee or tea. Me, I couldn't care less. Cold is fine with me and I can drink and eat the same thing day after day.

[zelph]

Always carry a stove for your safety against hypothermia.


https://youtu.be/dKAFAsPfC4s

[TwoSpirits]

I have, and love, my Jetboil Sol -- and at the risk of jinxing its so-far perfect performance, I have wondered what I'd do in the event it (or the gas canister) failed for any reason. I always bring fire-starting materials and feel pretty confident in my ability to get a fire started, but I wouldn't necessarily be able to use the Jetboil pot on a fire -- unless, of course, I was willing to ruin it for good. If I felt I was in a true life-threatening situation, I'd be willing to ruin it for good...but as several people have mentioned, just getting some hot tea can make a big difference in your mood and comfort -- not to mention safety.

All of which is to say that I'm thinking about bringing another type of stove if I can expect anything like the scenario above.

[RockDoc]

I think that the colder it gets, the more important it is to have a decent stove. Today's stoves are so light and efficient, compared to what I grew up with...

[Starchild]

While it may be safer with a stove, I would not out it in a safety issue not having one if one prepares that way. It's really a personal decision, I tried it but I wanted the ability to cook and hot coffee in the AM, so I won't go stoveless, but I gave it a fair shot. But others do fine stoveless. It sounds like you will do fine, I'd say go for it.

[Slo-go'en]

Well, OTOH, if your food needs to be cooked and for some reason your stove fails or runs out of fuel then that can be a safety issue. So, there is that advantage to being stove less to begin with.

But as mentioned, an alky stove, a few oz. of fuel and a cup you can boil water in doesn't weigh all that much or take up much space, and will probably be nice to have a couple times a week early in the season. Once it gets stifling hot out, you can decide if you still want to carry it or not.

[CalebJ]

What backpacking food truly 'needs' to be cooked though? Unless I'm just having a brain issue, there are very few examples that couldn't be eaten safely and nutritiously without cooking in the event of a stove failure.

[nsherry61]

Driving to the trailhead a safety issue. Not sleeping in a house with locked doors is a safety issue. Not having a police escort is a safety issue. So sure, not having a stove is also a safety issue. As with most things, one's skills have a huge impact on what one needs to "stay safe".

I would never consider having a stove a safety issue while backpacking outside of deep winter. If I am in a situation, as you suggest you are, where having a stove to make a hot drink is a safety concern of mine, I will take a couple Esbit tablets with me and make sure I am carrying a cup that I can heat water in. An Esbit tablet placed on a piece of foil with a couple of rocks or sticks to support your pot does a nice job of heating a couple cups of water. Esbit tablets also make outstanding fire starter if you want a fire. AND, Esbit tablet are extremely light and take up very little space.

I often take a couple with me even if I am carrying a stove just because they are a highly effective stove backup and a super effective fire starter if I'm feeling too lazy to put together an ideal fire bundle in less than ideal conditions, and I want a fire for whatever reason.

[Five Tango]

I know someone who not only does not carry a stove,he doesn't even carry a cup to drink from!Not for everybody and certainly not for me but it works for him.If you carry the small gas canister and a BRS titanium stove it's gonna be about 8 oz total plus whatever you use to boil in.I can do without cooking better than not having a hot beverage twice daily.

[Big_Old_Dog]

I am specifically thinking of the 105 mile stretch from NOC to Standing Bear given my understanding that resupply at Fontana Dam is uncertain and much of the elevation is 5-6.000 feet. Unless something goes wrong, I do not plan to come off the trail between Fontana Hilton and Standing Bear although I understand Newfoundland Gap down to Gatlinburg is a common resupply. I'd just prefer to stay on trail as much as possible, in general. So, a good amount of food carry and nearly a pound of unused stove/cook gear is around a day of food.

I am seeing a few solutions to my imagined problem based on what folks are suggesting. Probably overthinking on my part. I have to look into the small alky stove or maybe a few Nesbit cubes sounds good, too. Another alternative is to carefully monitor weather and take the expense of buying a stove and cartridge at NOC if the forecast looks shaky. If the weather looks good, assume the risk going stoveless. If bad weather forecast, take the stove or if very bad (deep snow), just wait the storm out. Lots of very good suggestions, thank you.

[stephanD]

Most hikers start by carrying a stove and cooking gear then decide what the want. For example, I, like you, don't cook but I must have a warm cup of coffee in the morning. So I carry a stove, small canister and a 250 cc container just to boil water.

[Big_Old_Dog]

I know someone who not only does not carry a stove,he doesn't even carry a cup to drink from!Not for everybody and certainly not for me but it works for him.If you carry the small gas canister and a BRS titanium stove it's gonna be about 8 oz total plus whatever you use to boil in.I can do without cooking better than not having a hot beverage twice daily.

Where do I get such a lightweight isobutane cannister? The lightest I know are 8.5 oz full. My MSR rocket is 2.6 oz. I think my pot is around 3-4 oz if I recall. Nearly one pound all in. I would not be carrying a cup for sure.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I think my stove is about 3 oz and a 110g cannister is 7 oz and my pot is 3 oz. So, it is 13 oz. It is also space. Logically, it makes sense to leave it home. My gut says bring it and then ship it home. Part of this issue is that I have a bad back and that is why I don't want to take extra weight if it is not needed. I don't expect my pack to ever weigh more than 15 pounds even with a long carry, so, 13 oz is relatively a lot if not used. Thanks for the comments and advice so far.Going stoveless doesn't necessarily reduce carried weight or volume as many of the foods then selected will have inherently high water content (and weight) and also may not pack down as well as foods that reconstitute with hot water. I think it's more a convenience, logistics, and dietary decision than a pack weight and volume one.

[Big_Old_Dog]

Going stoveless doesn't necessarily reduce carried weight or volume as many of the foods then selected will have inherently high water content (and weight) and also may not pack down as well as foods that reconstitute with hot water. I think it's more a convenience, logistics, and dietary decision than a pack weight and volume one.

I am LCHF keto type. Nothing denser.

[Slo-go'en]

I am specifically thinking of the 105 mile stretch from NOC to Standing Bear given my understanding that resupply at Fontana Dam is uncertain and much of the elevation is 5-6.000 feet. Unless something goes wrong, I do not plan to come off the trail between Fontana Hilton and Standing Bear although I understand Newfoundland Gap down to Gatlinburg is a common resupply. I'd just prefer to stay on trail as much as possible, in general. So, a good amount of food carry and nearly a pound of unused stove/cook gear is around a day of food.

I am seeing a few solutions to my imagined problem based on what folks are suggesting. Probably overthinking on my part. I have to look into the small alky stove or maybe a few Nesbit cubes sounds good, too. Another alternative is to carefully monitor weather and take the expense of buying a stove and cartridge at NOC if the forecast looks shaky. If the weather looks good, assume the risk going stoveless. If bad weather forecast, take the stove or if very bad (deep snow), just wait the storm out. Lots of very good suggestions, thank you.

The general store at Fontana Village is usually stocked pretty good with hiker food. Provided it's still operating. In theory they should be open, but with COVID that might not be the case this year. Or send a package to the PO there. Gatlinburg is not a great resupply stop unless your spending the night there. The grocery store is way outside of town. The trolley will get you there, but it takes over an hour one way. I spent pretty much half a day getting there and back.

The weather in the GSMNP can still be iffy in early May. Last time I hiked through there that time of year it rained for 5 days...

[Two Tents]

[QUOTE=Tipi Walter;2281008]I pulled an 18 day no stove trip back in April 2015 and it doesn't work for me.

Managing Discomfort and a stove increases my comfort levels.

This sums up long distance hiking.

[garlic08]

I think it's not a safety issue. In cold emergencies, a hot drink is helpful, administered by a rescuer, and is pretty far down on the priority list. Always concentrate on shelter and dry insulation first.

Of course it's best to not get cold in the first place. Get out of weather your clothing and experience can't handle, in your shelter or in town, before it becomes a safety issue.

I once worked up the number of calories available in a cup of warm water, when heated 40F above body temperature (the warmest you can drink without causing pain or doing damage). A Snickers bar contains more caloric energy, and you don't have to futz with a stove when it's wet and cold out. Getting in a dry sleeping bag and eating is the easier thing to do. Having a caring partner (or rescuer) serve you the hot drink while you're in your shelter is a different story.

[Tipi Walter]

Going stoveless doesn't necessarily reduce carried weight or volume as many of the foods then selected will have inherently high water content (and weight) and also may not pack down as well as foods that reconstitute with hot water. I think it's more a convenience, logistics, and dietary decision than a pack weight and volume one.

You're absolutely right. I can carry an overall lighter food load if I bring a stove---because dehydrated foods are extremely light---since the water you need to reconstitute them is not in your pack but instead found along the trail and therefore not carried. This makes a real difference on long trips w/o resupply.

In fact, a person could carry no "snackables" (no-cook foods) on a trip and only carry cookable dehydrated meals in bulk and his food load would be very light---even with 15 days worth of meals (two cooked meals per day).

Of course most of us don't have the discipline to do such a thing as we desire both our hot meals and our snackables like raisins and granola bars and peanut/nut butters and walnuts and honey and tahini and pringles and corn chips and pemmican and breads ETCETC. (Like bread contains approx 30 grams water per 100 grams of bread).

Another vital purpose of a stove is to melt snow and keep water thawed on winter trips when temps dip to 0F or below.

[Mockernut]

Stove also adds a means of water purification when your Sawyer squeeze clogs up. From personal experience...

[Tipi Walter]

Stove also adds a means of water purification when your Sawyer squeeze clogs up. From personal experience...

Yes, I often dip my cook pot in rivers because I'm too lazy to filter or it's too cold and use the boil method to purify---since I'm cooking up a meal anyway.

[Lone Wolf]

no. not a safety issue at all

[CalebJ]

Where do I get such a lightweight isobutane cannister? The lightest I know are 8.5 oz full. My MSR rocket is 2.6 oz. I think my pot is around 3-4 oz if I recall. Nearly one pound all in. I would not be carrying a cup for sure.

The BRS stove is about an ounce. So 8-9 ounces including the canister.

[Starchild]

.
I once worked up the number of calories available in a cup of warm water, when heated 40F above body temperature (the warmest you can drink without causing pain or doing damage). A Snickers bar contains more caloric energy, and you don't have to futz with a stove when it's wet and cold out. Getting in a dry sleeping bag and eating is the easier thing to do. Having a caring partner (or rescuer) serve you the hot drink while you're in your shelter is a different story.

While the calories may be true, it's not as simple as that. When the body's core is already low, adding something cold or even frozen (which cold food would typically be), has to initially be brought up to body temperature before any calories from it can be accounted for. This is the hitting you when you're down aspect of eating cold food in such conditions, getting worse before it can get better. Hot water would serve to help get the body towards a good temperature and additional hydration and would seem, within reason, to be a small start in the right direction.

[Big_Old_Dog]

no. not a safety issue at all

Thank you. No stove for me.

A few of my reasons in case anyone is interested.

1. Added space and weight in an UL setup
2. Excessive complexity of a stove detracts overall experience for me
3. Hate cooking, hate cleanup
4. Crouching will kill my knees and neck. No fun for sure.
5. Most of the food I eat does not require a stove, anyway
6. 50-70% of my daily calories normally come from fats. It is doubtful by my calculations that any ramen, couscous, MH, pasta packs can not come close to the density of my normal diet. Ketogenic diets are well beyond the scope of this Post/thread, but will say an adapted hiker needs far fewer calories intake than one relying upon carbohydrates. I simply have no need to rehydrate food stuffs because the are not part of my diet. I know this makes no sense to anyone but explaining in case it helps understand why I don't have much need for a stove, other than to warm up tea. If I develop a taste for Ramen, I can always procure a soaking tub.
7. I simply would not use a stove often and since there seems no compelling reason to take one, I will leave it behind.

Thanks for all the input to everyone.

[garlic08]

While the calories may be true, it's not as simple as that. When the body's core is already low, adding something cold or even frozen (which cold food would typically be), has to initially be brought up to body temperature before any calories from it can be accounted for. This is the hitting you when you're down aspect of eating cold food in such conditions, getting worse before it can get better. Hot water would serve to help get the body towards a good temperature and additional hydration and would seem, within reason, to be a small start in the right direction.

If you want a more accurate model, also include the extra time spent out in harsh weather heating water on the stove. If you're in the early stages of hypothermia, add extra time and factor in the risk of spills and accidents (since we're discussing safety).

[garlic08]

...A few of my reasons in case anyone is interested.

1. Added space and weight in an UL setup
2. Excessive complexity of a stove detracts overall experience for me
3. Hate cooking, hate cleanup
4. Crouching will kill my knees and neck. No fun for sure.
5. Most of the food I eat does not require a stove, anyway
6. 50-70% of my daily calories normally come from fats. It is doubtful by my calculations that any ramen, couscous, MH, pasta packs can not come close to the density of my normal diet. Ketogenic diets are well beyond the scope of this Post/thread, but will say an adapted hiker needs far fewer calories intake than one relying upon carbohydrates. I simply have no need to rehydrate food stuffs because the are not part of my diet. I know this makes no sense to anyone but explaining in case it helps understand why I don't have much need for a stove, other than to warm up tea. If I develop a taste for Ramen, I can always procure a soaking tub.
7. I simply would not use a stove often and since there seems no compelling reason to take one, I will leave it behind....
I'll add a couple:

8. Overall safer, no risk of stove accidents (scalds, burns, wildland fire).
9. One less chore during town stops, with no fuel resupply.

[Big_Old_Dog]

Allowing glycogen to completely deplete or to become dehydrated by not constantly grazing while moving all day is up there with drenching yourself with sweat in cold conditions. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

If one has glycogen, some anaerobic movement inside the sleeping bag will generate significant heat but gentle activity or if one is bonked so to speak, there isn't as much heat generated from aerobic energy production. Shivering violently is a fine example of anaerobic heat generation. Personally, if I did make the mistake of getting very cold or wet. I want to have my dry clothing on and into my bag. If I am still shivering, all will be well soon enough. In my experience, if you let if get worse (lower core temperature) and shivering stops, this is real trouble. If I start to shiver violently, I'm stopping and the bag and/or tent comes out

[zelph]

Thank you. No stove for me.
Thanks for all the input to everyone.

Good luck Big Old Dog, enjoy your cold/iced tea :D

[peakbagger]

Allowing glycogen to completely deplete or to become dehydrated by not constantly grazing while moving all day is up there with drenching yourself with sweat in cold conditions. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

If one has glycogen, some anaerobic movement inside the sleeping bag will generate significant heat but gentle activity or if one is bonked so to speak, there isn't as much heat generated from aerobic energy production. Shivering violently is a fine example of anaerobic heat generation. Personally, if I did make the mistake of getting very cold or wet. I want to have my dry clothing on and into my bag. If I am still shivering, all will be well soon enough. In my experience, if you let if get worse (lower core temperature) and shivering stops, this is real trouble. If I start to shiver violently, I'm stopping and the bag and/or tent comes out

To extend the glycogen discussion, as someone with hypothermia descends trough the finals stages of hypothermia, their gut shuts down, by this time the hiker is long past the point of being able to rescue themselves. The only way of getting glycogen into the body in the field is warm liquid loaded with glycogen. S&R folks in the whites carry hot jello and if the hiker able to swallow they pour it into them. The gut lining can absorb it with the gut shutdown.

The one time I and a friend had mild hypothermia we self rescued by getting in our sleeping bags and heating up every bit of food in our packs. I expect we would have been in far worse shape without a source of heat. I also got borderline mild hypothermia on day on the AT hiking in the pouring rain for 4 hours in 50 degree weather. We were shivering and luckily came upon a shelter and got a pot of soup going (I used to carry a Lipton Noddle Soup mix pack for emergencies). 20 minutes and we were good to go.

[Coffee]

On the Colorado Trail in summer, I got chilled in a thunderstorm and apparently borderline hypothermic (I didn’t realize it but hikers I encountered asked me if I was Ok - I must have looked bad). I set up my tent, got into my sleeping bag and had a hot meal. And I was fine in an hour. I think the hot food probably helped physically, but it 100% helped mentally and emotionally. I felt better as I started eating.

If stoveless, at least have the ability to make an emergency fire.

[Bianchi Veloce]

http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/starlyte-stove.php

I've switched to this and a small bottle to carry fuel in. I'm only boiling water and using a two cup mug for the water.

[Tipi Walter]

On the Colorado Trail in summer, I got chilled in a thunderstorm and apparently borderline hypothermic (I didn’t realize it but hikers I encountered asked me if I was Ok - I must have looked bad). I set up my tent, got into my sleeping bag and had a hot meal. And I was fine in an hour. I think the hot food probably helped physically, but it 100% helped mentally and emotionally. I felt better as I started eating.

If stoveless, at least have the ability to make an emergency fire.

You know how backpackers go on and on about heating up a hot water bottle and putting it in their bags on cold winter nights? Well, ingesting a pound or so of hot food does the same thing into the "bags" of our bodies.

Eat a lb of hot oatmeal and feel the heat radiating into your body. There's a reason winter mountaineers are always brewing up hot drinks.

[Big_Old_Dog]

To extend the glycogen discussion, as someone with hypothermia descends trough the finals stages of hypothermia, their gut shuts down, by this time the hiker is long past the point of being able to rescue themselves. The only way of getting glycogen into the body in the field is warm liquid loaded with glycogen. S&R folks in the whites carry hot jello and if the hiker able to swallow they pour it into them. The gut lining can absorb it with the gut shutdown.

The one time I and a friend had mild hypothermia we self rescued by getting in our sleeping bags and heating up every bit of food in our packs. I expect we would have been in far worse shape without a source of heat. I also got borderline mild hypothermia on day on the AT hiking in the pouring rain for 4 hours in 50 degree weather. We were shivering and luckily came upon a shelter and got a pot of soup going (I used to carry a Lipton Noddle Soup mix pack for emergencies). 20 minutes and we were good to go.

I have had hypothermia a few times. What I learned is to respect the early warning signs. If you stop shivering, you have let it get away and is it even possible to rewarm oneself? Could you light a stove and warm the water while in the sleeping bag? Shivering is the only way I would recognize early symptoms hiking whereas on a bicycle, it is easy to detect earlier by interpreting power output vs heart rate. As you start to get cold, heart rate and breathing increase quite a bit even though power might actually be lower. Shivering and lazy feet might be what to look for hiking. I haven't had it hiking but had hypothermia hunting once where the temperatures were just below zero and I was stationary all afternoon. I let it get a little too far in terms of being cold. I drank the hot, honeyed tea in my thermos and began stumbling out with a very, very heavy load. It was maybe a 90 minute hike out. Within about 40 minutes, I was down to my base layer climbing out of a steep river valley. Was it the hot tea? The honey? The extreme exertion? Luck? I studied enough physics decades ago that I should be able to calculate if the heat content of a pint of tea is sufficient to warm someone from mild hypothermia from say 92F to 96F, but is a calculation even needed? OTOH, if just a little cold and still shivering, the added sugars of the drink and being well dry and insulated and out of the elements would or should bring temperatures up. (I realize caffeine in the green tea might not be the smartest, but it was all I had). Having come full circle on my question. A stove in May would be merely false security for me. If I made such an error as to get so cold that I could not recover, a stove probably is not going to help. I would venture I could not heat and drink the 5-6 litres of warm liquid needed to heat me up, even if that volume were to be available and assuming I had sufficient fuel to heat it. Sugar and anaerobic movement on the other hand is extremely wasteful and inefficient and would heat me up much faster than trying to heat and drink the volume of warm fluid necessary to warm up.

I appreciate all the thought provoking responses. This has helped me think it thru. It was probably fear that had me wanting to bring the stove. I won't need it.

[zelph]

Having "Uncontrollable Shivering" you will not be able to function very well at all. You would probably not be able to setup your tent and get into your sleeping bag.

[HankIV]

Clearly your question is pretty much a metabolism one. One aspect people have been getting at is the energy your body “uses up” warming up cold food. That seems valid. I’ve not used it, but perhaps the crotch pot might be useful in this regard. https://www.gossamergear.com/products/the-crotch-pot?variant=30497157388

[Five Tango]

Hypothetically speaking,if one were drenched under their rain/wind shell but kept on moving and kept on eating could they keep on going with sleep deprivation and exhaustion being the only limiting factors?This would assume of course that the temps are not that severe....wondering what those temps might be?

[Odd Man Out]

... I studied enough physics decades ago that I should be able to calculate if the heat content of a pint of tea is sufficient to warm someone from mild hypothermia from say 92F to 96F...

I think you conclusions are pretty much spot on, but as this is what I do for a living (teach chemistry and biochemistry), I can't let this calculation go undone. It's at best an approximation. For ease of calculation, we are heating a 90 kg body from 34 C by then drinking 1 liter (ie 1 kg) of water at 60 C. I know the bp of water is 100 C, but by the time you get the het tea to you lips it will have cooled considerably and 60 C is the threshold if pain, so you would find this to be quite hot. I also assume the body's heat capacity is the same as water, as we are mostly water. I don't have a better approximation for this number. This gives a delta T of the body of 0.6 C or about 1 deg F. One could argue the effectve benefit could be a little greater as the heat will be mostly raising the core temp rather than the extremities, which is probably a good thing.

But I agree that burning food internally is ultimately going to be more effective if you can manage. The heat delivered by the hot beverage is only about 25 kcal which is 25 dietary Calories. Also, it is the aerobic catabolism that will generate the heat. Anaerobic catabolism will only keep you going for seconds. Short term anaerobic exercise will be followed by long term aerobic recovery which is where the Calories will be burned and heat released.

The sticking point is that exertion may be a net loss if you are out in 34F rain and wind and your weather protection has failed.

[peakbagger]

Hypothetically speaking,if one were drenched under their rain/wind shell but kept on moving and kept on eating could they keep on going with sleep deprivation and exhaustion being the only limiting factors?This would assume of course that the temps are not that severe....wondering what those temps might be?

The problem is that you really cant digest food on the run, about all you can do is absorb simple sugars and then you need to balance out the equation of fuel in versus energy out. Cold and damp just is another thumb on the scales. There are some pretty incredible running "machines" out there that can extend the math but at some point hypothermia is gnawing away at upper brain function to the point where the runner is on autopilot. They done even know how screwed they are. This article is about a very well trained athlete in the whites that ended up being beaten by the math https://sectionhiker.com/death-in-the-presidential-range-the-kate-matrosova-incident/. There is also a book with a lot more details https://www.amazon.com/Where-Youll-Find-Decisions-Matrosova/dp/0996218157. She had high altitude training and experience. Her body was found with food and water in her pack.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I think my stove is about 3 oz and a 110g cannister is 7 oz and my pot is 3 oz. So, it is 13 oz. It is also space. Logically, it makes sense to leave it home. My gut says bring it and then ship it home. Part of this issue is that I have a bad back and that is why I don't want to take extra weight if it is not needed. I don't expect my pack to ever weigh more than 15 pounds even with a long carry, so, 13 oz is relatively a lot if not used. Thanks for the comments and advice so far.Lots of calculations and plans and such, which are really cool to play with, as are average mileage/pace plans, trail budgets, etc. But like Mike Tyson said, "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." This isn't meant as an insult. Plans change, and the more optimistic they are, the more they tend to change. I think one can certainly thru-hike without a stove - just not something that I would enjoy. I'm more skeptical about the calculations/plan that come to the conclusion of only having to carry 15lbs maximum INCLUDING 4-5 days of "no cook" food.

[Big_Old_Dog]

The problem is that you really cant digest food on the run, about all you can do is absorb simple sugars and then you need to balance out the equation of fuel in versus energy out. Cold and damp just is another thumb on the scales. There are some pretty incredible running "machines" out there that can extend the math but at some point hypothermia is gnawing away at upper brain function to the point where the runner is on autopilot. They done even know how screwed they are. This article is about a very well trained athlete in the whites that ended up being beaten by the math https://sectionhiker.com/death-in-the-presidential-range-the-kate-matrosova-incident/. There is also a book with a lot more details https://www.amazon.com/Where-Youll-Find-Decisions-Matrosova/dp/0996218157. She had high altitude training and experience. Her body was found with food and water in her pack.

The situation with the decreased isn't even remotely comparable to May in the Smokies carrying a tent, a high quality sleeping bag, mat, a down anorak with hood, goretex rain gear, and other cold gear (wool). She did not even have a bivvy or sleeping bag and the temperature was well below zero with wind chills at -94F if I recall the article correctly. The all time record low in May is 17F in the area of AT in the Smokies with the average low of 43F.

I am not sure why you say you cannot digest food on the run or maybe I misunderstand what you mean. Hikers are walking and maybe burning 3-500 kcal/hr depending on pace, terrain, and weight. There is clearly a limit to how many calories one can digest in a day or in an hour. Some can process 200 kcal/hour in moderate exertion and some can process 350-400 kcal/hr but that is the upper limit. It is actually possible not to deplete glycogen if one paces properly and eats constantly thru the day. Some of that depends how much fat one burns at moderate exercise levels. At least this explains my comment about having the reserves to actually shiver. If one is "bonked" or very low, their blood glucose can drop quickly adding to mental confusion.

What is the limit of endurance or as Five Tango asked, can one just keep pushing on. Good question. I dunno. I would hunker down myself. I can say for myself, I have done a 54 hour push with nearly a 16 hour period of time with no food over a distance total of 1230 km and no sleep. Evening temperatures were 38-40F and I was wet. This was on a bicycle where speeds make wind chill more serious. I know that does not answer Five Tango's question....I do not know the answer. I would never intentionally take such a risk in a back country environment

[Big_Old_Dog]

Lots of calculations and plans and such, which are really cool to play with, as are average mileage/pace plans, trail budgets, etc. But like Mike Tyson said, "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." This isn't meant as an insult. Plans change, and the more optimistic they are, the more they tend to change. I think one can certainly thru-hike without a stove - just not something that I would enjoy. I'm more skeptical about the calculations/plan that come to the conclusion of only having to carry 15lbs maximum INCLUDING 4-5 days of "no cook" food.

I am not sure why you are skeptical. Your punch comment in the face is kind of an insult.

I know how many calories I need. 7.5# base, 5 days with 5-6# food, and no more than a liter of water carried in the GSMNP and often less. I would normally drink a lot before breaking camp, drinking a lot a water sources, and carry 0.5 L often depending on the next source. If I am off, it isn't by 5 pounds. Maybe half a pound. As mentioned, I could leave the trail and resupply in GSMNP but that is not my preference.

Look at the number of calories in a #10 can of MH Beef Stew. 2000 kcal. Approx. 2.75L in volume. 16 oz. Around 125 cal/oz $50. Rice is like 100 calories per oz. Couscous is around 95 cal/oz. Many vegetarian dehydrated packages are under 100 cals/oz and cost a boatload. Parma de reggiano cheese is $15 a pound, 122 cal/oz and much smaller and much more enjoyable to eat. My normal trail mix that I love and eat all the time is 130 cal/oz. Powdered milk is around 150 cal/oz. There are a variety of energy dense powders that would be in my bottle during the day. Walnuts, cashews, macadamia nuts are around 170 cal/oz. Jerky is around 120. Ghee is 200 cal/oz. Olive oil and other oils are 250/oz, some are less. Dried sausages are 100-120cal/oz depending on the fat and water contents. Dried fruits aren't bad but a luxury, Almond butter on pita. Just a few examples showing much higher density than coucous, rice, pasta, Knoor sides, etc. Etc. 5 pounds of energy dense food is more than enough to fuel 4-5 days for me. There are so many opportunities to eat near or on the trail that certainly add tons of calories and variety.

[Big_Old_Dog]

I think you conclusions are pretty much spot on, but as this is what I do for a living (teach chemistry and biochemistry), I can't let this calculation go undone. It's at best an approximation. For ease of calculation, we are heating a 90 kg body from 34 C by then drinking 1 liter (ie 1 kg) of water at 60 C. I know the bp of water is 100 C, but by the time you get the het tea to you lips it will have cooled considerably and 60 C is the threshold if pain, so you would find this to be quite hot. I also assume the body's heat capacity is the same as water, as we are mostly water. I don't have a better approximation for this number. This gives a delta T of the body of 0.6 C or about 1 deg F. One could argue the effectve benefit could be a little greater as the heat will be mostly raising the core temp rather than the extremities, which is probably a good thing.

But I agree that burning food internally is ultimately going to be more effective if you can manage. The heat delivered by the hot beverage is only about 25 kcal which is 25 dietary Calories. Also, it is the aerobic catabolism that will generate the heat. Anaerobic catabolism will only keep you going for seconds. Short term anaerobic exercise will be followed by long term aerobic recovery which is where the Calories will be burned and heat released.

The sticking point is that exertion may be a net loss if you are out in 34F rain and wind and your weather protection has failed.

My back of the envelop assumed the specific heat of water and the human body were equal since we are mostly water. A quart weighs 2 pounds. I weigh 200 pounds. Water heated to 140F is a differential of around 50F over a cold body. A liter of warm beverage isn't going to do much and that is a lot to drink under any circumstance. I completely agree with assertion or exertion of your sticking point. You have to get out of the elements and into dry clothing and into the tent and sleeping bag, which I think is much more beneficial than warm drink. Sugars in any beverage is probably more valuable when cozied up in the sleeping bag (or quilt).

What is interesting to me is that this discussion has allowed me to think rationally about whether I need a stove or not. It took my fear away.

[Big_Old_Dog]

I found some hikers who report only needing 15 oz of food on a LCHF ketogenic diet while backpacking for 12 days. They report 3000 oz calories per day. Just sharing to support my notion of 1-1.2# per day is way more than my daily caloric needs.


https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/comments/bebna5/keto_diet_lighter_load/

[Tipi Walter]

There's no fear associated with going out w/o a stove. I worry more about lightning strikes and falling dead trees on my tent.

And I always carry ample nut butters on a long trip---like almond and cashew and peanut butter. Why not? It's heavy but high calorie.

Here's a pic at the beginning of a 21 day winter trip with all my Nut Butters on display---(in yellow lids)
47326

[4eyedbuzzard]

I found some hikers who report only needing 15 oz of food on a LCHF ketogenic diet while backpacking for 12 days. They report 3000 oz calories per day. Just sharing to support my notion of 1-1.2# per day is way more than my daily caloric needs.


https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/comments/bebna5/keto_diet_lighter_load/Just my opinion, but I think you are going to lose weight and be very hungry after the first couple of weeks on the trail if you only consume 3K Cal/day. You may not be hungry in the beginning stages of a thru-hike on that diet, but I think after a few weeks of running a caloric deficit you'll encounter a phenomena known as "hiker hunger", that occurs when hikers can't/won't carry enough food to meet the 5K to 6K Cal daily demand. Hence the popularity of hiker feeds, gorging on town meals, etc. It takes a lot of fuel to hike 15 miles and go up and down 3500ft in elevation on average every day.

[Five Tango]

The problem is that you really cant digest food on the run, about all you can do is absorb simple sugars and then you need to balance out the equation of fuel in versus energy out. Cold and damp just is another thumb on the scales. There are some pretty incredible running "machines" out there that can extend the math but at some point hypothermia is gnawing away at upper brain function to the point where the runner is on autopilot. They done even know how screwed they are. This article is about a very well trained athlete in the whites that ended up being beaten by the math https://sectionhiker.com/death-in-the-presidential-range-the-kate-matrosova-incident/. There is also a book with a lot more details https://www.amazon.com/Where-Youll-Find-Decisions-Matrosova/dp/0996218157. She had high altitude training and experience. Her body was found with food and water in her pack.


Thanks,I will check it out.

[Starchild]

I found some hikers who report only needing 15 oz of food on a LCHF ketogenic diet while backpacking for 12 days. They report 3000 oz calories per day. Just sharing to support my notion of 1-1.2# per day is way more than my daily caloric needs.

The only thing that exceeds 200 cal/oz is oils such as olive oil, and just barely at 220. The next thing that comes close is alcohol at about 180 cal/oz. So to get your 3000 cal out of 15 oz you would basically need 7.5 oz olive oil combined (or washed down with) 7.5 oz Everclear.

While I'm sure people are reporting those numbers the math does not appear to me to add up.

[Odd Man Out]

My back of the envelop assumed the specific heat of water and the human body were equal since we are mostly water. A quart weighs 2 pounds. I weigh 200 pounds. Water heated to 140F is a differential of around 50F over a cold body...

Suggestion - Use the metric system. 1 kcal heats one L of water 1 deg C. Lots of multiplying and dividing by 1 !

[Alligator]

Having "Uncontrollable Shivering" you will not be able to function very well at all. You would probably not be able to setup your tent and get into your sleeping bag.I don't recommend being in that state but I was able to help my hiking partner put up shelter, managed to cook a horrible dehydrated meal, get out of wet clothes and into my bag. I could not have put up the tent myself. It was not my tent and the poles were confusing even in summer. It's a bit like being really drunk.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

Can somebody with hiking wisdom help me make a good choice? I am very green so to speak. Am I stupid not to carry a stove at that time of year? Please be honest with me. I am not sure if my thought process is correct. Thank you.

In a true emergency, I cannot think of a reason to not just build a fire to warm up. As far as hot food? Try it at home for 2 weeks, eat no stove meals 24/7 and see how you like it. I have done many 3 day weekends with no stove and had no problem.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

Can somebody with hiking wisdom help me make a good choice? I am very green so to speak. Am I stupid not to carry a stove at that time of year? Please be honest with me. I am not sure if my thought process is correct. Thank you.

In a true emergency, I cannot think of a reason to not just build a fire to warm up. As far as hot food? Try it at home for 2 weeks, eat no stove meals 24/7 and see how you like it. I have done many 3 day weekends with no stove and had no problem.

[peakbagger]

Using a rainy day in PA scenario where we left the shelter in the AM and it immediately started pouring and continued pouring for 4 hours, good luck on starting a fire unless undercover. Even if I was to build a fire under an overhang at a shelter, any fuel in the woods would be saturated. I am aware of most of the tricks out there on how to make dry wood when there is none readily available but when the woods are wet even those tricks can prove elusive. I once spent about 2 hours in the rain with a bunch of senior level boy scouts trying all the tricks and it was a major effort to get a fire that might be regarded as something to warm up to. Sure I can use a trioxane bar to get a quick fire but once the bar is gone unless I was really prepared, I may not have a fire that lasts. Add in diminished metal capacity from mild hypothermia and the odds get worse. Give me dry conditions and its a relative no brainer but generally hypothermia is a cold and wet/damp scenario unless winds are in the extreme range.

[nsherry61]

In a true emergency, I cannot think of a reason to not just build a fire to warm up . . .
Because there is no fuel with which to build a fire.
Because everything is wet and you do not have the skill to build a fire in such conditions (most people).
Because you are cold and disoriented and building a fire is beyond your current ability.
Because building a fire takes time and a lot of work to collect fuel to maintain it. Whereas lighting a canister stove takes little coordination or time, is quick and can be done inside a quickly put up shelter from inside quickly unrolled or unstuffed bedding.
Because a short rest while getting warm liquid inside your (or your buddy's) cold body and then moving on to safety or an exit may be your smartest option rather than hanging out with a fire.

Can you tell that by and large I think fires for emergencies are over-rated. In most emergency situations, priorities are shelter (including getting out of a dangerous location), stabilizing any medical issues, getting warm if needed (for which shelter and warm drinks are more useful than a fire) and in most cases, most importantly getting out and getting help. AND accordingly, a fire is of limited value in the vast majority of such emergency situations.

And because my fingers still have more pet peeves to punch keys about . . . how many survival shows have we watched where people are hunkering down building shelters and spending time finding food (and often starving) when the best option, by far, would be to extricate one's self from the bad situation, which is also, what most people do in most types of real emergencies. . . being lost or being injured being the two exceptions, being lost of which is the only one where making a fire makes much sense to me (I'm not going to be gathering wood and maintaining a fire if I am injured to the point I can't move).

That all being said, I'd also much rather be curled up inside my shelter and sleeping bag during bad weather or other cold emergencies that I would be trying to walk around hunting fuel to build or maintain a fire.

. . . just my two cents.

[KnightErrant]

I usually go stoveless and definitely don't consider it a safety issue. If you're in a situation where the stove/hot meal is the difference between a safe trip and an emergency situation, multiple bad decisions have already been made, namely improper clothing/gear for the weather and/or opting to stay out instead of head to town when conditions deteriorate past what your clothing/gear is equipped to handle.

If you want to carry a stove because a hot meal/drink is the difference between a moral-boosting ending to your day vs. going to bed on a belly of cold-soaked couscous or whatever, then carry the stove because hot food is worth it for the taste/variety/comfort/etc. Don't carry a stove because you expect it to compensate for an inadequate clothing/shelter/sleep system. I carry my stove on short and/or low mileage trips because a hot cup of cocoa is the perfect way to cap off the day when I'm hanging around camp in the evening, especially on cold nights. But I did most of my thru hike stoveless because for me personally (ymmv, of course), it was lighter and more convenient when I was hiking from dawn to dusk and didn't feel like waiting for water to boil or doing dishes at night. Never a safety issue because I had the right gear for the weather!

[Big_Old_Dog]

Just my opinion, but I think you are going to lose weight and be very hungry after the first couple of weeks on the trail if you only consume 3K Cal/day. You may not be hungry in the beginning stages of a thru-hike on that diet, but I think after a few weeks of running a caloric deficit you'll encounter a phenomena known as "hiker hunger", that occurs when hikers can't/won't carry enough food to meet the 5K to 6K Cal daily demand. Hence the popularity of hiker feeds, gorging on town meals, etc. It takes a lot of fuel to hike 15 miles and go up and down 3500ft in elevation on average every day.

Thanks. I understand your point. I have been specifically focused on the GSMNP stretch. I alluded to the opportunity to fuel at towns along the way. All good plans have constraints and mitigations. My constraint is health related. I have to minimize carry weight. I am kind of old and my body is lousy. From my research, there are only a couple of stretches with long carries. I can clearly come out of the GSMNP at Newfoundland Gap and go down to town.

My basal metabolic rate is just under 2000 kcals/day. Most online caloric expenditure calculators grossly overestimate needs. Walking at 3 mph will not burn more than 330 kcal in an hour on the flats. Incremental caloric needs due to elevation gain is not too hard to estimate. I do not anticipate burning much more than 4200 kcals/day. Clearly, a 5 day stretch running a shortage of 12-1700 calories per day will burn off a couple of pounds. In ketosis, there is no hunger. There is no bonking. I am not worried. When I get to a town, I will pig out. No question that I will be burning my own fat, is there a better store of energy? I once lost 24 pounds of fat on a 30 day bikepacking trip. I am also very certain that my dietary preferences always change on long endeavors but I cannot in my wildest imagination ever eating Raman.

[pyroman53]

Many rainy days, while having hiked all day in the rain, I get to camp wet but warm from hiking. In my experience, I have 20-30 minutes to get out of my wet clothes and into my bag before I start to shiver and will soon progress to even worse shivering. In that time, I have to set up tent and unpack sleep system. In no case did I want to cook until I was warm. That process is critical and my life could depend on me executing those few critical tasks successfully. Unexpected delays or fumbling mean more shivering, fingers becoming less dexterous, and thought processes deteriorating. On some days it’s a fine line and one I game in my head so that I’m ready to meet the challenge. It’s also why I once bailed on a solo hike because of extreme weather, a very slippery trail, and the realization that if I hurt myself, even a little, I might not be able to pull it off, since I’d have no help. It’s not the fire (Pyro can always start a fire), it’s not a hot drink or food, it’s the shelter, dry clothes, a warm sleeping bag, and like Garlic says, an energy packed snack.

[GoldenBear]

It’s not the fire (Pyro can always start a fire), it’s not a hot drink or food, it’s the shelter, dry clothes, a warm sleeping bag, and like Garlic says, an energy packed snack.

Here's a good article on the best order of steps to take in an emergency situation -- like severe shivering when you end your hike.
https://www.outdoorlife.com/survival-skills-order-of-operations/

[CalebJ]

Here's a good article on the best order of steps to take in an emergency situation -- like severe shivering when you end your hike.
https://www.outdoorlife.com/survival-skills-order-of-operations/

Because the #3 thing on your mind in any emergency in nature should be 'prepare to defend yourself'??

[nsherry61]

Here's a good article on the best order of steps to take in an emergency situation -- like severe shivering when you end your hike.
https://www.outdoorlife.com/survival-skills-order-of-operations/

I struggle with the "good" judgment on that article. What a horribly ad infested web site and after the first two suggestions (good ones) the rest is pretty much parroted hype rather than insightful recommendations or guidance.

[cmoulder]

I struggle with the "good" judgment on that article. What a horribly ad infested web site and after the first two suggestions (good ones) the rest is pretty much parroted hype rather than insightful recommendations or guidance.

Yep, pabulum for some wannabe bushcrafter.

I must be a real punter because my medical kit doesn't look anything like that one. :rolleyes:

[Five Tango]

Judging from the size of the medical kit and that knife which weighs 15.9 oz with the sheath,I'm a bit surprised that the compass on the list is a bit on the skimpy side.:banana

[AsoloBootsSuk]

Because there is no fuel with which to build a fire.
Because everything is wet and you do not have the skill to build a fire in such conditions (most people).
Because you are cold and disoriented and building a fire is beyond your current ability.
Because building a fire takes time and a lot of work to collect fuel to maintain it. Whereas lighting a canister stove takes little coordination or time, is quick and can be done inside a quickly put up shelter from inside quickly unrolled or unstuffed bedding.
Because a short rest while getting warm liquid inside your (or your buddy's) cold body and then moving on to safety or an exit may be your smartest option rather than hanging out with a fire.

Can you tell that by and large I think fires for emergencies are over-rated.n most emergency situations, priorities are shelter (including getting out of a dangerous location), stabilizing any medical issues, getting warm if needed (for which shelter and warm drinks are more useful than a fire) and in most cases, most importantly getting out and getting help. AND accordingly, a fire is of limited value in the vast majority of such emergency situations.

And because my fingers still have more pet peeves to punch keys about . . . how many survival shows have we watched where people are hunkering down building shelters and spending time finding food (and often starving) when the best option, by far, would be to extricate one's self from the bad situation, which is also, what most people do in most types of real emergencies. . . being lost or being injured being the two exceptions, being lost of which is the only one where making a fire makes much sense to me (I'm not going to be gathering wood and maintaining a fire if I am injured to the point I can't move).

That all being said, I'd also much rather be curled up inside my shelter and sleeping bag during bad weather or other cold emergencies that I would be trying to walk around hunting fuel to build or maintain a fire.

. . . just my two cents.

I was talking about emergencies. All of your scenarios assume you have not been separated from your pack. or that your stove works properly or you haven't leaked or spilled all of your fuel. The ability to start a fire in wet conditions is a basic skill and is attainable by anyone with little practice.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

Because there is no fuel with which to build a fire.
Because everything is wet and you do not have the skill to build a fire in such conditions (most people).
Because you are cold and disoriented and building a fire is beyond your current ability.
Because building a fire takes time and a lot of work to collect fuel to maintain it. Whereas lighting a canister stove takes little coordination or time, is quick and can be done inside a quickly put up shelter from inside quickly unrolled or unstuffed bedding.
Because a short rest while getting warm liquid inside your (or your buddy's) cold body and then moving on to safety or an exit may be your smartest option rather than hanging out with a fire.

Can you tell that by and large I think fires for emergencies are over-rated.n most emergency situations, priorities are shelter (including getting out of a dangerous location), stabilizing any medical issues, getting warm if needed (for which shelter and warm drinks are more useful than a fire) and in most cases, most importantly getting out and getting help. AND accordingly, a fire is of limited value in the vast majority of such emergency situations.

And because my fingers still have more pet peeves to punch keys about . . . how many survival shows have we watched where people are hunkering down building shelters and spending time finding food (and often starving) when the best option, by far, would be to extricate one's self from the bad situation, which is also, what most people do in most types of real emergencies. . . being lost or being injured being the two exceptions, being lost of which is the only one where making a fire makes much sense to me (I'm not going to be gathering wood and maintaining a fire if I am injured to the point I can't move).

That all being said, I'd also much rather be curled up inside my shelter and sleeping bag during bad weather or other cold emergencies that I would be trying to walk around hunting fuel to build or maintain a fire.

. . . just my two cents.

I was talking about emergencies. All of your scenarios assume you have not been separated from your pack. or that your stove works properly or you haven't leaked or spilled all of your fuel. The ability to start a fire in wet conditions is a basic skill and is attainable by anyone with little practice.

[nsherry61]

. . .The ability to start a fire in wet conditions is a basic skill and is attainable by anyone with little practice.
Oh my. Quite obviously you haven't spent much time starting fires in the Pacific Northwest or other area that get truly soaking wet. And, I was actually talking specifically about real emergencies, NOT pretend emergency scenarios. Fires always seem logical in a TV or Boy Scout survival scenario. In practice, fires are a pain in the butt to start and maintain in less than ideal conditions and, in most cases, curling up inside some kind of shelter with good insulation and a working stove is way more effective, at least in the short run.

Please, please, please don't go out in the woods expecting fire to be a ready solution to an emergency and easily "attainable by anyone with little practice!" The exact situations where warmth is most often called for in an emergency are exactly the situations that make fire building problematic.

[CalebJ]

Exactly. Unless you have a non hypothermic person to build the fire, it's basically a dead option in an emergency.

[Tipi Walter]

Oh my. Quite obviously you haven't spent much time starting fires in the Pacific Northwest or other area that get truly soaking wet. And, I was actually talking specifically about real emergencies, NOT pretend emergency scenarios. Fires always seem logical in a TV or Boy Scout survival scenario. In practice, fires are a pain in the butt to start and maintain in less than ideal conditions and, in most cases, curling up inside some kind of shelter with good insulation and a working stove is way more effective, at least in the short run.

Please, please, please don't go out in the woods expecting fire to be a ready solution to an emergency and easily "attainable by anyone with little practice!" The exact situations where warmth is most often called for in an emergency are exactly the situations that make fire building problematic.

You echo exactly what I wrote in a winter trip report from a couple years ago---

WHY FIRES SUCK ON A BUTT COLD TRIP
First you have a good 4 season tent set up with a subzero down bag and a 7R or 8R pad system. You also are wearing very warm down pants and a beefy subzero down parka. You're in the tent sitting on your pads and it's 0F but your feet and hands are suitably warm so cocooned by your shelter and gear. You don't want to go out and build a fire at 0F in a 20mph wind. Here's why---

** You have to find a level spot and clear the snow.

** It must be far enough from the tent to prevent burn ash holes in the tent fly from floating embers.

** You move the snow and go gather wood and break or cut enough, you'll also need ample kindling wood.

** All this prep is done in your butt cold rock hard boots, so your in-tent warm feet are now frozen.

** You work hard to get enough wood and get a fire going.

** Your backpacking winter goose down layers are getting pinholed by hot ashes because as a backpacker you cannot carry enough flame resistant clothing (wool/canvas) to be as warm as your lighter down parka and pants and down mittens.

** As you feed the fire and wait for the coals to build up it's dark and 0F with a moderate wind so your torso is cooling rapidly and your hands are cold because the fire doesn't yet give off enough heat to sit down and bask in the warmth.

** And where are you gonna sit? Definitely not on your inflatable sleeping pad---it'll get holed by a hot ash. And not on your ccf pad in your tent because it'll get wet from melting snow and also holed by hot embers. But you have to sit somewhere so you can remove your boots and thaw out your painful feet.

** In due time your face and chest and arms and legs are getting warm but your back and butt are still ice cold and your socked feet are barely thawing even by the fire. Don't burn your socks.

** Smoke chokes your lungs and eyes. Just about the time you get relaxed and comfy you have to put your rock hard boots on to get more wood.

** After a couple hours the hot coals aren't enough as they wither away and you start getting ass cold again and it's time to retire to the tent---where you could've been all along on top of your sleeping pads and under your -20F down bag while writing in your trip report.

The best use of a fire in the winter is in a tipi with a woodstove (or wall tent or witu etc). Something you can feed at 10pm and by 10am the next day it still has a bed of hot coals and puts out heat all night.

Just my opinion.

[Big_Old_Dog]

Holy Mackeral, Tipi. You're like a walking encyclopedia. You listed so many of the reasons why I don't ever want to build a fire. You mentioned a wood stove, please don't tell me you have one of those in your pack, LOL.

I know this is off topic, but I was going over some of my old gear and my merino base layer top has seen its better days. It is about 8 years old and I honestly never liked it. I really don't want to buy a new one and came up with a hair brained idea. I have this old light cashmere sweater that I bought used on fleebay for 15 bucks, it got a couple moth holes in it lately and my wife hates it. I often wear it wear it as a base layer hunting. I am thinking of using it backpacking. It weighs 8.5 oz......a little heavy but it is very warm and feels like liquid sex on your skin and it does not collect odor. I can hear the experts at the shelters telling me my sweater is no good. For that alone, I think I found my new base layer.

[CalebJ]

How does cashmere handle getting wet? That would be my only immediate concern. Everything gets wet at some point.

[Tipi Walter]

I know this is off topic, but I was going over some of my old gear and my merino base layer top has seen its better days. It is about 8 years old and I honestly never liked it. I really don't want to buy a new one and came up with a hair brained idea. I have this old light cashmere sweater that I bought used on fleebay for 15 bucks, it got a couple moth holes in it lately and my wife hates it. I often wear it wear it as a base layer hunting. I am thinking of using it backpacking. It weighs 8.5 oz......a little heavy but it is very warm and feels like liquid sex on your skin and it does not collect odor. I can hear the experts at the shelters telling me my sweater is no good. For that alone, I think I found my new base layer.

If your wife hates it you know it's perfect for backpacking. I have a down vest which looks like I've been working on diesel engines for a year and my wife hates it but it's worth its weight in gold. It therefore passes the Significant Udder test.

[Grampie]

Their is nothing better than a hot meal after hiking a long cold or wet day.

[Five Tango]

Their is nothing better than a hot meal after hiking a long cold or wet day.

That and a nice hot cup of tea with a little powdered apple cider mixed in,then some nice HOT oatmeal or grits in the morning with some Cafe Bustelo..........plus,you can warm your hands a bit while the water is heating.......

[GoldenBear]

How does cashmere handle getting wet?

https://sewingiscool.com/is-cashmere-warm-for-winter/

[HankIV]

Their is nothing better than a hot meal after hiking a long cold or wet day.

I 100% agree, but OP doesn’t get much from it

[zelph]

Their is nothing better than a hot meal after hiking a long cold or wet day siting next to the campfire. :D

47339

[nsherry61]

Their is nothing better than a hot meal after hiking a long cold or wet day.
A hot sweet drink, dry cloths, a warm bed, and a special someone to cuddle up with to stay warm?

[AsoloBootsSuk]

Oh my. Quite obviously you haven't spent much time starting fires in the Pacific Northwest or other area that get truly soaking wet. And, I was actually talking specifically about real emergencies, NOT pretend emergency scenarios. Fires always seem logical in a TV or Boy Scout survival scenario. In practice, fires are a pain in the butt to start and maintain in less than ideal conditions and, in most cases, curling up inside some kind of shelter with good insulation and a working stove is way more effective, at least in the short run.

Please, please, please don't go out in the woods expecting fire to be a ready solution to an emergency and easily "attainable by anyone with little practice!" The exact situations where warmth is most often called for in an emergency are exactly the situations that make fire building problematic.

You convinced me, fires are a bad idea and not a skill any outdoor person should try to master. There is a 10,000 year record of peoples using fire in the AT corridor. I'm off to buy a cat food can and watch more TV, thanks

[AsoloBootsSuk]

Oh my. Quite obviously you haven't spent much time starting fires in the Pacific Northwest or other area that get truly soaking wet. And, I was actually talking specifically about real emergencies, NOT pretend emergency scenarios. Fires always seem logical in a TV or Boy Scout survival scenario. In practice, fires are a pain in the butt to start and maintain in less than ideal conditions and, in most cases, curling up inside some kind of shelter with good insulation and a working stove is way more effective, at least in the short run.

Please, please, please don't go out in the woods expecting fire to be a ready solution to an emergency and easily "attainable by anyone with little practice!" The exact situations where warmth is most often called for in an emergency are exactly the situations that make fire building problematic.

You convinced me, fires are a bad idea and not a skill any outdoor person should try to master. There is a 10,000 year record of peoples using fire in the AT corridor. I'm off to buy a cat food can and watch more TV, thanks

[CalebJ]

You convinced me, fires are a bad idea and not a skill any outdoor person should try to master. There is a 10,000 year record of peoples using fire in the AT corridor. I'm off to buy a cat food can and watch more TV, thanks
Bless your heart.

[cmoulder]

You convinced me, fires are a bad idea and not a skill any outdoor person should try to master. There is a 10,000 year record of peoples using fire in the AT corridor. I'm off to buy a cat food can and watch more TV, thanks
Nobody said you shouldn't know how to build a fire.

But IMO it is supremely unwise to waste one's last fading moments with minimal dexterity and clarity of thought trying to build a fire when one could be erecting a shelter and getting into dry layers.

Many times I've been in situations where building a fire is nigh impossible and I know what I'm doing. Teaching noobs that this is #1 on the list of survival strategies is just plain stupid.

[Big_Old_Dog]

How does cashmere handle getting wet? That would be my only immediate concern. Everything gets wet at some point.

In my experience, it insulates better dry or wet compared to my merino Iceraker baselayer. Cashmere does not keep its shape as well meaning if you get it soaked, it can get baggy. This quality is actually an advantage overall, the fibers bend more easily than merino and it seems to hang on your body better. Drawback is lower abrasion resistance. I could be wrong, this is just my observation

[Big_Old_Dog]

I 100% agree, but OP doesn’t get much from it

Rather overly simplified.

None of the food that I would want to eat would be easily cooked or carried, even if I did not hate cooking and cleaning. I like good food. The crap other people (OP) eat is their own business. I know after any long, hard day, the last thing I want to do is light a stove. Now, if someone handed me a plate of something hot and edible, I'd be game.

[CalebJ]

Nobody said you shouldn't know how to build a fire.

But IMO it is supremely unwise to waste one's last fading moments with minimal dexterity and clarity of thought trying to build a fire when one could be erecting a shelter and getting into dry layers.

Many times I've been in situations where building a fire is nigh impossible and I know what I'm doing. Teaching noobs that this is #1 on the list of survival strategies is just plain stupid.

100% agreed with all of this. Having the skill to build a fire is a useful asset in your toolbox of knowledge. But it's just not anywhere near the top of things you should reach for when you're starting to get hypothermic.

[Odd Man Out]

Who read this in high school English class?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Build_a_Fire

[CalebJ]

Absolutely. That still haunts me.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

I was talking about emergencies. All of your scenarios assume you have not been separated from your pack. or that your stove works properly or you haven't leaked or spilled all of your fuel. The ability to start a fire in wet conditions is a basic skill and is attainable by anyone with little practice.

Because my previous quote was edited to suit the narrative, I'll repost it myself

[AsoloBootsSuk]

I was talking about emergencies. All of your scenarios assume you have not been separated from your pack. or that your stove works properly or you haven't leaked or spilled all of your fuel. The ability to start a fire in wet conditions is a basic skill and is attainable by anyone with little practice.

Because my previous quote was edited to suit the narrative, I'll repost it myself

[CalebJ]

You reposted that as if it was relevant to the discussion.

It's not.

The important part, that you are simply fundamentally off base about, is the second part.

It is absurd that anyone (with little or large amounts of practice) can reliably start a fire in wet conditions. Especially when they're already shivering and suffering from the effects of hypothermia. Got a hiking partner that's in good shape? Sure - after they've helped you into dry clothes and into a dry tent and sleeping bag, and made you a nice meal and sugary beverage, a fire might not be a bad afterthought.

[Alligator]

In a true emergency, I cannot think of a reason to not just build a fire to warm up. As far as hot food? Try it at home for 2 weeks, eat no stove meals 24/7 and see how you like it. I have done many 3 day weekends with no stove and had no problem.

I was talking about emergencies. All of your scenarios assume you have not been separated from your pack. or that your stove works properly or you haven't leaked or spilled all of your fuel. The ability to start a fire in wet conditions is a basic skill and is attainable by anyone with little practice.
You convinced me, fires are a bad idea and not a skill any outdoor person should try to master. There is a 10,000 year record of peoples using fire in the AT corridor. I'm off to buy a cat food can and watch more TV, thanks
Because my previous quote was edited to suit the narrative, I'll repost it myself This is the order these were posted in. People started responding to you after your first post. You did clarify a "true emergency" and "emergency" but they had already responded.

That being said, your posts were edited with an ellipsis (...) each time. That's acceptable practice but I would caution its use. It's not particularly necessary for short posts, which these were. I do consider not using the ellipsis to be selectively quoting.

So it seems you are saying that an emergency where fire building is an important early consideration is separation from pack. Not exactly what the OP asked but there was a safety component. So I recommend reevaluating the discussion going forward taking into account the fullly quoted posts here.

Hypothermia will kill you faster than lack of water or food. Roughly 3,3,3. Three hours vs. three days vs. three weeks.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

You reposted that as if it was relevant to the discussion.

It's not.

The important part, that you are simply fundamentally off base about, is the second part.

It is absurd that anyone (with little or large amounts of practice) can reliably start a fire in wet conditions. Especially when they're already shivering and suffering from the effects of hypothermia. Got a hiking partner that's in good shape? Sure - after they've helped you into dry clothes and into a dry tent and sleeping bag, and made you a nice meal and sugary beverage, a fire might not be a bad afterthought.


Just for fun, suppose you did not have any of the items in bold above. You could hike out, oh wait, your head lamp was in the pack. If you have to spend the night a fire is not an afterthought.

[Tipi Walter]

Just for fun, suppose you did not have any of the items in bold above. You could hike out, oh wait, your head lamp was in the pack. If you have to spend the night a fire is not an afterthought.

I've given tremendous thought to the David Decareaux tragedy in the Ozarks where he and his two sons expired from hypothermia in January 2013 on a dayhike.

Here's a telling quote from the article---
As the three hikers were making their way home that afternoon and evening, heavy rain set in, and when night arrived, the temperature plummeted into the 20s.

From
https://www.rockmnation.com/2013/2/5/3957842/tragedy-on-the-ozark-trail


1) Day starts out warm in 50Fs.
2) Rainstorm hits at around 35F.
3) Rain usually stops and temps drop drastically to 20F or 10F or 0F
4) Temps rise in clear weather back to 50Fs.

I've always known about this cycle but put his name to it as a sort of homage.

The "tremendous thought" part comes in when I envision what I would do in a similar scenario with little gear (they were dayhikers). Some considerations and options:
1) Bail out of the wind (off a ridge etc).
2) Find a rock overhang or big blowdown.
3) Stuff a crawlspace with bushels of dead leaves (wet leaves---doesn't matter)
4) Crawl into leaves and place bushels of dead leaves on top of you/group to survive the night. ETC ETC

[Alligator]

Just for fun, suppose you did not have any of the items in bold above. You could hike out, oh wait, your head lamp was in the pack. If you have to spend the night a fire is not an afterthought.So after I clarified for you, you have gone and grabbed a post where the person may not have been caught up to your evolving position. What you are doing is perpetuating the argument I just moderated.

Please restate the conditions of the scenario you are describing fully if you wish to continue.

Thank you.

[Big_Old_Dog]

I have had low level hypothermia several times and there is no way I could like a fire. One time my hands were not working and I could barely walk. It was about 3 am and the forecast low was 50F in the Sonoran desert (October) but it dipped to 32F. I was in a 24 hour bike race. I left the race to my hotel about 7 miles away when it was clear I was in trouble. It really did not take long to get into trouble. I had the most difficult time putting the card into the lock to get into my room. I got warmer clothing on, stood under the heat lamp, cranked the heater, and poured warm sweet tea down my pipe. Once I started to shiver again, I knew it was just a matter of time.

Another instance was crossing the Continental Divide at midnight in a bike race where there was a momma grizly and her cubs at the top of the pass. It was scary but the Sheriff would not leave me until I hit 50 mph on the descent because he said they can run 45 mph. He had his gun out riding with me. I had just climbed a big pass and was very hot but not sweating despite it being 26F. He told me not to stop until I got to Dubois. By then, I was really frozen. I should have stopped and put warm clothing on but all I could think was the grizzly coming after me and then your brain gets cold and does not work good. I stopped at the Stupid 8 motel with a vacancy light on. The night guy would not give me a room (probably because I smelled and could barely talk). I just kept drinking coffee and after warning up, I explained he can call the police that I am really, really cold. Eventually after 45 minutes, he decided to let me buy a room. There is not freakin way my hands could have made a fire.

The lesson I learned is the first shiver if you are solo? Take Action. In backcountry, I think that action is getting shelter and into my back with dry warm clothing.

[hobbs]

I've given tremendous thought to the David Decareaux tragedy in the Ozarks where he and his two sons expired from hypothermia in January 2013 on a dayhike.

Here's a telling quote from the article---
As the three hikers were making their way home that afternoon and evening, heavy rain set in, and when night arrived, the temperature plummeted into the 20s.

From
https://www.rockmnation.com/2013/2/5/3957842/tragedy-on-the-ozark-trail


1) Day starts out warm in 50Fs.
2) Rainstorm hits at around 35F.
3) Rain usually stops and temps drop drastically to 20F or 10F or 0F
4) Temps rise in clear weather back to 50Fs.

I've always known about this cycle but put his name to it as a sort of homage.

The "tremendous thought" part comes in when I envision what I would do in a similar scenario with little gear (they were dayhikers). Some considerations and options:
1) Bail out of the wind (off a ridge etc).
2) Find a rock overhang or big blowdown.
3) Stuff a crawlspace with bushels of dead leaves (wet leaves---doesn't matter)
4) Crawl into leaves and place bushels of dead leaves on top of you/group to survive the night. ETC ETC
Tippi makes me wonder how many former thru hikers got hypathermia while in proximitty of a shelter after hiking in the rain and needed help. i would say quit a few over the years.

[zelph]

Lost hiker's decision to wait for help on trail was right -- at first
MAY 31, 2016 / 6:47 PM / CBS/AP

PORTLAND, Maine -- An Appalachian Trail hiker who died after getting lost in the woods of Maine did the right thing by setting up camp to wait for help, officials say. But the guidance for what to do after a week without being rescued would have evolved, they said.

Rita Hennessy from the National Park Service, which oversees the Appalachian Trail, said people who're lost are commonly advised to stop moving.

"When you realize you're lost, and nothing looks familiar, then stop, don't panic, and stay put," said Hennessey, program manager for the national trail system.


That's exactly what 66-year-old Geraldine Largay of Tennessee did in July 2013 when she left the Appalachian Trail to use the bathroom and became disoriented.

She had most of the items on hikers' "10 essential" list. She had food, water, shelter, maps, a compass, several lighters, a whistle and cellphone, meaning she was equipped to survive in the woods while awaiting rescue from hundreds of searchers. Her husband also knew her hiking route.

Lost hikers usually are found within a couple of days under such circumstances.

In Largay's case, she was unable to communicate with her phone, and searchers missed her campsite, which was hidden in a heavily wooded area more than 3,000 feet from the trail. Her body was recovered in October. Details of her ordeal were included in documents released last week.

Much of her harrowing ordeal was documented in a journal she kept.

Evidence indicates Largay tried to start a fire, which would've increased her visibility, officials said. No one heard her whistle.

Whether to stay put for a search that stretches longer than a few days depends on the hiker, said Cpl. John MacDonald, spokesman for the Maine Warden Service.

"Each individual is going to have their own idea on survival. Some people may choose to stay in one spot. Some people may choose to charge on," he said.

Added Hennessy: "I just wonder what goes through your head after a week of not being found. Do you still make that judgment of staying there?" she said.

David Field, a retired University of Maine forest resources professor and officer in the Maine Appalachian Trail Club, compared advice to hikers to stay put to that given to boaters to stay with an overturned boat rather than to swim to safety.

But, he said, it becomes a gray area if land is nearby, hypothermia is a concern or the area is too remote to be found. In Largay's case, she might've saved herself by abandoning the stay-put rule and following a nearby stream downhill to safety, Field said.

By all accounts, Largay was well equipped and was at least average in her abilities after putting more than 800 miles under her belt over several months.

One thing that might have saved her was a global-positioning device that she'd left behind in a motel room, the Warden Service said. While there was no cellphone signal, the GPS still would've worked, potentially firing off a message with coordinates after she became lost.

Largay continued making entries in her journal after the search for her was scaled back. The contents were deemed personal, and the journal was released to her husband, officials said.

They say her campsite was difficult to find even when searchers were right next to it.

The remains of Largay's body were found two years after she disappeared, according to CBS affiiliate WGME.

In a recent report, The Maine Warden Service released new details about her disappearance. Wardens say it appears Largay spent time trying to build a bedding area to keep her tent dry. The report also says wardens found some silver material likely from a space blanket.

The people who help maintain the Appalachian Trail said Largay was in a dense, steep area where it's easy to get lost.

"The trail is very well marked around there, but if you step off the trail the brush is very thick, it can be very easy to get disoriented," Doug Dolan, Maine Appalachian Trail Club, said. "Just take a step off that trail and turn around, you can't even see the trail. It just blends in with the background."

[nsherry61]

AND, to continue on, more in the spirit of the OP . . .

What are the most common "emergencies" we should prepare for when backpacking?

I suggest the following:
1) Getting lost
2) Getting cold and risking or experiencing hypothermia
3) Getting injured to the point that one cannot self rescue

Sure, there are lots of other "scenarios" to consider, but I suggest that these are the big three.
Of these, the only one that carrying a stove would potentially be a critical safety issue for is #2.

So, on the AT, how might one prepare to avoid or ameliorate #2 if it starts.
1) A stove could certainly provide an increased safety buffer here. But what do other's of us think about the risk/reward of carrying a stove for this purpose?
2) Prepare to build a fire. Less effective than a stove, dry cloths, and a shelter, but better than no other alternative.
3) Make sure one brings and packs their gear in such a way that, even if they get wet and cold, they will always have dry cloths, warm insulation and a shelter readily available. Since we're backpacking, most of us have already set this part up. If we have confidence in being able to always pitch a shelter and keep our insulation dry enough, a stove becomes less critical and, if we don't want our stove for non-emergency use, we could likely leave it out of our kit to save weight and hassle with little if added risk, depending on the weather and terrain conditions we might need to be prepared to deal with.

In my experience, stove systems can be so small and light weight that carrying them to offer an occasional warm drink or meal during shoulder-season backpacking is well worth it in most cases as I will surely be uncomfortably chilled now and again. . . come late spring through early fall, I couldn't really care less. But hey, to each their own comfort and choice of luxuries to bring.

[Big_Old_Dog]

If it was March or mid April, there is no question I would have a stove but I was talking May in GSMNP.

WRT to Zelph's post about Geraldine Largay tragic loss of life, I had read that account a few times and could never understand. Even if one does not have a map, pick a bearing on your compass and walk. No? As long as you have water and shelter, in 5,10 25, 50 miles you will hit a road pretty much anywhere in the Continental USA (almost). I am guessing it is more like 20 miles max. Just trying to understand or learn something. I would not stay put at all unless injured.

I often carry a Spot Gen 3 on my bicycle if doing remote and risky riding (wet, night, tired, etc.) where I could crash. I am on the fence whether one is needed for the AT, I just don't know. I have or am upgrading some of my gear towards colder temperatures after this thread, but I am going stoveless. Quilt and warm clothing will be inside waterproof bag inside a dyneema backpack, they should stay reasonably dry.

[Traveler]

This is the terribly misunderstood danger of hypothermia, "It's May, not winter". 50 degrees is all you need to start the first stages of hypothermia, add getting wet followed by a building wind, you can get in trouble very quickly. Having been part of S/SAR operations years ago I saw some strange behaviors associated with hypothermia, one of the most strange was finding people who had removed some or all of their clothing due to hot flashes that can accompany the Stage 2 and 3 processes causing them to feel like they were burning up and they shed their clothing.

Hypothermia is a lot like black ice. No one fully recognizes or appreciates the danger of black ice until the road freezes under them at 60 mph and the vehicle goes into an uncontrolled state. Following that exposure, those folks tend to be always looking for signs of black ice and once encountered they behave accordingly. The same is true of hypothermia, misunderstanding how it can start and how quickly it can progress by robbing one of their mental capabilities are common, as is the death it brings. It is difficult to react to hypothermia by the time it can be recognized, the only true measure of defense is preventive and preparation for it.

[zelph]

I am not sure if this belongs in cooking. I am planning NOBO start in late April/Early May from Springer. I usually only take a stove with me on the bike if I know it will be cold, wet, and remote. The few times I needed the stove, I was very happy to have it. Otherwise, I just eat on the go with whatever I can buy locally.

I am worried it will be cold enough in the Smokies in early or mid May that I probably should bring a stove even though I don't want to. I always go as light as makes sense but also always bring one temperature layer lower than expected low temperatures. I have a feeling I won't use the stove (MSR rocket that uses isobutane and I have a light pot). I would not want to ever make a fire, but I suppose some cotton balls with vasoline or a few freetos could be used to make a fire if I was real cold. I will have a tent, R4 air mattress, Katabatic Palisaides with 2 extra oz of down, and a lightweight down anorak puffer with lightweight merino underwears. Expected average low are 43F per y research but I don't believe it, I think 30F is more realistic with potential for one night into the 20's is very possible.

Can somebody with hiking wisdom help me make a good choice? I am very green so to speak. Am I stupid not to carry a stove at that time of year? Please be honest with me. I am not sure if my thought process is correct. Thank you.

Is Stoveless a safety issue (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/138915-Is-Stoveless-a-safety-issue/page6)
Big Old Dog has been convinced not to take a stove along for safety. The title of the thread indicates he has a concern but he was convinced by the comments to go stoveless even though he found "The few times I needed the stove, I was very happy to have it."


All we can do is wish him well and hope his back problems don't act up when least expected ;)

[GoldenBear]

pick a bearing on your compass and walk. No? Geraldine "Inchworm" Largay had a terrible sense of direction, and did not know how to use a compass. This was not a major problem as long as she either (1) stayed on the trail, (2) walked with a companion who could steer her back in the right direction, or (3) had a locations beacon. Largay had left her beacon in town, and her friend departed for a few days due to a family emergency. An unfortunate combination, but Largay (apparently) figured this would not be a problem on a walk of only a few days. And she also (most likely) figured a short walk off the trail would not be a problem. After realizing she had gotten lost, Largay decided to climb up a hill in order to get cell service. If she had instead followed the stream downhill, she would have run into a service road in about half a mile.


Just trying to understand or learn something. I would not stay put at all unless injured.Her climb up the steep hill may have left her either injured or too exhausted to walk out. She had alerted her husband where she was going to be hiking and when to expect her to get back to civilization, so she (correctly) assumed there would be an intense search for her while she sat in place in her well-stocked gear. In this situation, even without injury, staying put would have been the smart choice -- it allows rescuers to search an area only once, preserves your resources, and prevents further risks of injury. Sadly, she chose to stay in a heavily wooded area, made no effort to make her location visible from air search (just place rocks in an open field, in a giant 'X' is usually enough), and was unable to start a fire (again, a skill she should have learned but didn't). By the time it should have become clear that she needed to self-rescue, she was likely too exhausted to walk out.
I've followed this case almost from day one, and my conclusion is that she made a series of mistakes in a place that can be very unforgiving of mistakes.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

AsoloBootsSuk, I think what we may be dealing with here is two very different ideas of what constitutes the type of emergency that should be prepared for...

I'm with you, a plane is not going to crash into your campsite, you don't need to be prepared for that. I also agree that any hypothermic person's first priority would be be dry clothes, etc. Yes a warm drink and a tent would be first. I never said differently. But how likely would it be to spill fuel or have your stove not work. I think that could happen. Even as a last resort, a fire is a good option. In one of my previous posts I said "with little practice". What I legit meant to say was "with a little practice". I think that missing "a" is what took this thread off the rails. I believe anyone who goes outdoors should practice fire making. I have a ultralight fire kit, that consists of a mini bic, 3 birthday candles, some matches and Vaseline soaked cotton balls. I keep it in a small plastic tube. It's only a few ounces and it's always on my person. With that kit and a very small (1.7oz) knife, I can always get a fire going, even in a drizzle to moderate rain. It is a fun skill to practice. Anyone who is contemplating as many nights in the woods as it would take to hike this trail would be remiss to not be a confident fire builder.


AsoloBootsSuk, ... Then, this is compounded by the difference between someone who has, read a lot, thought a lot, probably watched a lot about outdoor survival trying to have a meaningful a conversation with a bunch of people, several of which have spent a lot of time outdoors dealing with typical, not-so-sexy and often not so dramatic real emergencies. . .

I know you tube videos exist and I 've heard a lot of people like a show called Alive, but I have not seen them.

[zelph]

But how likely would it be to spill fuel or have your stove not work. I think that could happen.
.

The no-spill Starlyte Stove with integrated stainless steel pot support has the ability to hold the fuel within the absorbing material safely. If tipped over the fuel remains in the stove. The stove weighs only 30 grams, keep it inside your first aide kit for emergency use....30 grams! Have a 2 ounce capacity plastic bottle with 2 ounces of dual purpose 190 proof alcohol in it ;)

47357

47358

[cmoulder]

This is the terribly misunderstood danger of hypothermia, "It's May, not winter". 50 degrees is all you need to start the first stages of hypothermia, add getting wet followed by a building wind, you can get in trouble very quickly. Having been part of S/SAR operations years ago I saw some strange behaviors associated with hypothermia, one of the most strange was finding people who had removed some or all of their clothing due to hot flashes that can accompany the Stage 2 and 3 processes causing them to feel like they were burning up and they shed their clothing.

Hypothermia is a lot like black ice. No one fully recognizes or appreciates the danger of black ice until the road freezes under them at 60 mph and the vehicle goes into an uncontrolled state. Following that exposure, those folks tend to be always looking for signs of black ice and once encountered they behave accordingly. The same is true of hypothermia, misunderstanding how it can start and how quickly it can progress by robbing one of their mental capabilities are common, as is the death it brings. It is difficult to react to hypothermia by the time it can be recognized, the only true measure of defense is preventive and preparation for it.
This is key. Hypothermia onset is insidious and and can kill at far higher temperatures than many people think.

Google 'hypothermia deaths' and you get an avalanche of results for incidents in relatively 'warm' conditions.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

The no-spill Starlyte Stove with integrated stainless steel pot support has the ability to hold the fuel within the absorbing material safely. If tipped over the fuel remains in the stove. The stove weighs only 30 grams, keep it inside your first aide kit for emergency use....30 grams! Have a 2 ounce capacity plastic bottle with 2 ounces of dual purpose 190 proof alcohol in it ;)

47357

47358

Nice, when I carry a stove, I use pure methanol that I get free at work, but you can't drink it:(

[Big_Old_Dog]

Is Stoveless a safety issue (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/138915-Is-Stoveless-a-safety-issue/page6)
Big Old Dog has been convinced not to take a stove along for safety. The title of the thread indicates he has a concern but he was convinced by the comments to go stoveless even though he found "The few times I needed the stove, I was very happy to have it."


All we can do is wish him well and hope his back problems don't act up when least expected ;)

Thanks for the kind wishes. So nice of you.

What convinced me is my calculations and various opinions that allowed me to think it thru.

The specific heat of the human body is 3.49 kJ kg-1 C-1 and water is a little higher than that. Drinking a liter of water is going to do nothing to stave off moderate hypothermia. It might raise my body temperature 0.5 F. A warm sugary drink is different, the sugar is key. Having sufficient glycogen and glucose to shiver will produce far more heat and is much more effective if preventative measures failed. Reducing energy loss to the extent that energy production exceeds it is far more vital than a hot beverage. Each source of loss has to be addressed....convective, conductive, and evaporative.

Even when I hike in Summer, my day pack has about 2000 calories of sugary energy bars, I have goretex, a hat, usually an umbrella, another top, and always a cell phone.

[Alligator]

Recognize the "-umbles" when worried about hypothermia: stumbling, fumbling, mumbling, etc. A titanium woodstove is a very light option, particularly if you think a fire is important. If your stove is not working, that's a bit of an issue if you don't have something edible and high in calories.

When it's cold and wet I put up shelter and get water if possible right away so I can get into dry clothes if needed and not worry about going back out. If I am overly cold and wet and need to switch into better clothing, I find it helps to have about a half liter of water or so to get an appetizer or quick meal started. In general this is helpful to me actually but YMMV. I'd eat tomorrow's snacks if necessary but thinking about your water supply is also important, whether your food needs to be cooked or soaked. Many of us know this but new to the AT hikers may not that water at a shelter or campsite might be upwards of a 1/4 mile away and downhill for instance. Cruising in empty might make for a crunchy dinner!

[cmoulder]

Good point about also having enough water for dinner/breakfast and staying hydrated. This is always an important end-of-day consideration, and depending upon availability enroute it's frequently lots easier to collect during the last mile or 2 of hiking than at camp.

[cmoulder]

Nice, when I carry a stove, I use pure methanol that I get free at work, but you can't drink it:(

Methanol is better anyway... burns clean. But it has about 25% fewer BTUs per unit than ethanol. (57k vs 76k BTU/gallon)

So it's nice to have a very efficient stove setup.

[nsherry61]

Good point about also having enough water for dinner/breakfast and staying hydrated. This is always an important end-of-day consideration . . .

I was about to suggest that we can avoid the majority of our evening water collection concerns by eating dinner early and near a water source, then hiking further before making camp, then getting up and hiking for a bit before stopping for breakfast, maybe near another water source.

Then I thought about crappy weather or winter camping and realized that, especially in winter with shorter daylight hours, it's really nice to hike in the light and keep moving while your warm even after sunset. Then, making dinner and breakfast from the comfort of camp during the long nights allows me to keep moving during daylight.

[nsherry61]

Methanol is better anyway... burns clean. But it has about 25% fewer BTUs per unit than ethanol. (57k vs 76k BTU/gallon) . . .

Wow. Thanks for that. I never thought to consider it outside of alcohols' lower energy density than other hydrocarbon fuels we use.

Clean burning, hell, lighter weight and drinkable. I'm going ethanol all the way.
That will save me enough weight I don't have to drill out my 1/2 toothbrush like I do when I carry methanol. :cool:

[cmoulder]

I was about to suggest that we can avoid the majority of our evening water collection concerns by eating dinner early and near a water source, then hiking further before making camp, then getting up and hiking for a bit before stopping for breakfast, maybe near another water source.

Then I thought about crappy weather or winter camping and realized that, especially in winter with shorter daylight hours, it's really nice to hike in the light and keep moving while your warm even after sunset. Then, making dinner and breakfast from the comfort of camp during the long nights allows me to keep moving during daylight.

In serious bear country that is not a bad idea anyway.

On 2 recent winter trips (one 1-night and one 2-night) I used the strategy of carrying a single 20oz water bottle and obtaining water by melting snow. There was occasionally some running water and I did collect 1 container full on one of the days (fairly tough snowshoeing, averaging about 1 mph). I had a very efficient snow melting system and could have easily fired it up and melted a quart in a few minutes if necessary. In the evening, I left the pot full of water and buried it in the snow, so it was still liquid in the morning and ready to go pronto.

If trail conditions are not too tough and weather isn't terribly hot, I can hike 10 miles easily consuming 20oz water. In the winter it's even easier because I am very conscious of overheating and ventilate with zippers or remove layers promptly to prevent it. Of course this is also key to reducing hypothermia from wet clothing layers.

[Big_Old_Dog]

Low blood sugar can cut metabolic energy production (shivering) by 50%. Having ready to eat, easy to digest sugars is essential.

OTOH, a study or two that I have read indicated that drinking a 125F beverage when shivering halted the muscle contractions (shivering) for around 10-20 minutes, ostensibly due to thermoreceptors in your gut responding to the temperature of the fluid. If the fluid is cold, you shiver more but if it is warm, you stop shivering. Consuming a quart of warm water is going to raise one's body temperature by half a degree at most. This is basic thermo. A stove is not going to save a solo hiker, although it certainly will add comfort in camp to those not adapted to the cold.


Collectively, the findings from the present study demonstrate that the previously identified visceral thermoreceptors, which modify heat‐defence thermoeffector responses (i.e. sweating), similarly alter cold‐defence thermoeffector responses (i.e. shivering). Specifically, compared to fluid ingestion at 37°C, fluid ingestion at 7 and 22°C independently increased shivering, whereas fluid ingestion at 52°C independently decreased shivering because both M and EMG were different between trials without any measured differences in Tre, Tsk or Tb at any point, therefore supporting the concept of visceral thermoreceptors independently modifying thermoeffector responses in humans.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5489010/

[cmoulder]

Wow. Thanks for that. I never thought to consider it outside of alcohols' lower energy density than other hydrocarbon fuels we use.

Clean burning, hell, lighter weight and drinkable. I'm going ethanol all the way.
That will save me enough weight I don't have to drill out my 1/2 toothbrush like I do when I carry methanol. :cool:
LOL well it really is noticeable.

On a trip to North Cascades a couple of years ago I had to purchase Heet locally, of course due to air travel, instead of the Klean-Strip DA ('marine fuel' which is a methanol/ethanol blend) that I normally use. Heet is essentially pure methanol and I noticed, sure enough, that I needed more of it to boil water even at somewhat higher elevations (3000-6000ft) than I do locally (typically 500-1200ft) with a higher boiling point. I wasn't being particularly careful measuring it out and darn near ran out of the 12oz bottle even though it was only a 4-night trip. Lesson learned.

[cmoulder]

And just to clarify, ethanol generally has a very sooty burn, especially if the flame-to-pot distance is inadequate, which leads to more 'quenching' (incomplete combustion).

[Big_Old_Dog]

Shivering endurance. Much depends on available energy substrates although the best ratio of carbs, fats, protein isn't quite to clear. 400 calories per hour for moderate shivering. So, eat.

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.01088.2005

[zelph]

Shivering endurance. Much depends on available energy substrates although the best ratio of carbs, fats, protein isn't quite to clear. 400 calories per hour for moderate shivering. So, eat.
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.01088.2005

Heat those 400 calories up to 125 degrees first, then eat and shivering stops...... Yes, I remember what you said :D

[nsherry61]

And just to clarify, ethanol generally has a very sooty burn, especially if the flame-to-pot distance is inadequate, which leads to more 'quenching' (incomplete combustion).
This is interesting and doesn't jive with my recollections. Denatured alcohol is ethanol treated to make it poisonous. And denatured alcohol burns pretty clean as I recall. Also, in years of working in biology labs, we did a lot of burning of ethanol for instrument sterilization, and I don't ever recall it burning anything other than very clean. Finally, in playing/experimenting with alcohol stoves and fuel in years past, I'd be surprised if I didn't play with some Everclear. I don't ever recall it being sooty either.

Now, on the other hand, isopropyl/rubbing alcohol is very sooty and dirty even at higher purity levels (90%) and also has a higher energy density.
Is it time to head to the liquor store to start testing stoves and stove fuel in my kitchen again? I know Bacardi 151 seems to burn cleanly when you use it to melt the sugar on the rim of a Spanish Coffee cup.
Is there a chance you are getting ethanol and isopropyl alcohol confused regarding sootiness?

[cmoulder]

This is interesting and doesn't jive with my recollections. Denatured alcohol is ethanol treated to make it poisonous. And denatured alcohol burns pretty clean as I recall. Also, in years of working in biology labs, we did a lot of burning of ethanol for instrument sterilization, and I don't ever recall it burning anything other than very clean. Finally, in playing/experimenting with alcohol stoves and fuel in years past, I'd be surprised if I didn't play with some Everclear. I don't ever recall it being sooty either.

Now, on the other hand, isopropyl/rubbing alcohol is very sooty and dirty even at higher purity levels (90%) and also has a higher energy density.
Is it time to head to the liquor store to start testing stoves and stove fuel in my kitchen again? I know Bacardi 151 seems to burn cleanly when you use it to melt the sugar on the rim of a Spanish Coffee cup.
Is there a chance you are getting ethanol and isopropyl alcohol confused regarding sootiness?
My experience is with Klean-Strip 'Green' which is ~90% ethanol and I was shocked at how sooty it was, especially after reading other folks' reports that it burned cleanly, and it also popped and produced uneven-burning yellow flames.

I have not experimented with Everclear or rum. I did try 91% isopropyl at some point and it was awful, although I remember that Jon Fong at Flat Cat Stoves (https://www.flatcatgear.com/bobcat-cooking-system/) experimented with 'tuning' a setup to run well on rubbing alcohol.

EDIT: to correct name... FLAT cat gear and link to it.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

My experience is with Klean-Strip 'Green' which is ~90% ethanol and I was shocked at how sooty it was, especially after reading other folks' reports that it burned cleanly, and it also popped and produced uneven-burning yellow flames.

I have not experimented with Everclear or rum. I did try 91% isopropyl at some point and it was awful, although I remember that Jon Fong at Fat Cat Stoves experimented with 'tuning' a setup to run well on rubbing alcohol.

One problem with drinkable alcohol (rum) is the proof. 200 Proof equals 100% alcohol. The remaining percentages are water or water based ingredients. Bacardi 151 is ~75% alcohol

[Five Tango]

I get denatured alcohol from ACE Hardware and it has always worked just fine for me.Yellow HEET is said to work also.

[nsherry61]

My experience is with Klean-Strip 'Green' which is ~90% ethanol and I was shocked at how sooty it was, especially after reading other folks' reports that it burned cleanly, and it also popped and produced uneven-burning yellow flames. . .


I get denatured alcohol from ACE Hardware and it has always worked just fine for me.Yellow HEET is said to work also.

It sounds like maybe that Klean-Strip 'Green' may has some additives contributing to dirty burning?


One problem with drinkable alcohol (rum) is the proof. 200 Proof equals 100% alcohol. The remaining percentages are water or water based ingredients. Bacardi 151 is ~75% alcohol

Trust me, higher proof (>100 proof) drinkable alcohols burn just fine. Good point about the 151 though . . . If ethanol has 25% higher energy density than methanol, then Bacardi 151 (75% ethanol) should have close to the same energy density as yellow Heat (100% methanol). So, I don't need to buy yellow Heat as stove fuel any more! Thanks! :cool: ;)

[cmoulder]

Sounds like yer gunna be a happy camper. :)

[cmoulder]

One problem with drinkable alcohol (rum) is the proof. 200 Proof equals 100% alcohol. The remaining percentages are water or water based ingredients. Bacardi 151 is ~75% alcohol

That might not be so bad because I think I've read that some tests show better performance with isopropyl by adding water. However, I'll leave it for you or others to google because I've simply had zero interest in investigating isopropyl as a fuel. I'm sure that if I lived in a country where iso- was the most common stuff available I'd be singing a different tune!

However, I can say the same for Kerosene and XGK stoves. Back in ye olde dayes I changed out the jet and used kero exactly once. It burns really hot, and although I'm usually not all that sensitive to smells (I'm one of those sick puppies that kinda likes the smell of Esbit :)) I could not abide the stanky mess that accompanies kero.

[zelph]

(I'm one of those sick puppies that kinda likes the smell of Esbit :))

You are in the first stage of hypothermia if you like that smell :D

I dislike the smell but like the btu's it has.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

You are in the first stage of hypothermia if you like that smell :D

I dislike the smell but like the btu's it has.

I went parasailing out of Ocean City MD once. It was a hot and muggy day, the harbor area smelled like dead fish and diesel fumes. Several people got sick. The fist time I used an Esbit, I had deja'vu

[nsherry61]

. . . smelled like dead fish and diesel fumes. . . The fist time I used an Esbit, I had deja'vu
Fantastic description!

[Coffee]

Shortly after I moved into my current apartment in September I started to notice a fishy gross smell in my hallway. It so happens that my hallway is adjacent to the trash room on my floor. I was convinced that the smell was coming from some crack in the wall between my hallway and the trash chutes and it drove me nuts. A few weeks later I was unpacking and, sure enough, I had some Esbit packets in a box in a closet in that hallway. I don't know why, but the Esbit did not stink like this when I bought it a few years ago. I don't use Esbit for cooking. I bought it to take with me on a winter trip in case I had to make an emergency fire.

[cmoulder]

Ah, as usual there's no love for Esbit but they're still the undisputed UL champ... 1oz per day!! :sun

And many times there's some left over. In mild conditions (i.e. not too windy, water not too cold) a 14g tab boils 2 cups with fuel left over, to which I can add a 5g tab and boil 2 more cups... basically 19g per day.

I have a setup that will boil 3 cups with one 14g tab but I need only 2 cups, so the lighter stove/pot combo is a side benefit.

[Cheyou]

[QUOTE=cmoulder;2281630]Ah, as usual there's no love for Esbit but they're still the undisputed UL champ... 1oz per day!! :sun

I’m a user. It’s just so easy.

thom

[cmoulder]

I’m a user. It’s just so easy.

thom
All the hate leaves more for you and me, bruddah. :D

[zelph]

Ah, as usual there's no love for Esbit but they're still the undisputed UL champ... 1oz per day!! :sun

And many times there's some left over. In mild conditions (i.e. not too windy, water not too cold) a 14g tab boils 2 cups with fuel left over, to which I can add a 5g tab and boil 2 more cups... basically 19g per day.

I have a setup that will boil 3 cups with one 14g tab but I need only 2 cups, so the lighter stove/pot combo is a side benefit.

Do you use a BGET?

[flatcatgear]

My experience is with Klean-Strip 'Green' which is ~90% ethanol and I was shocked at how sooty it was, especially after reading other folks' reports that it burned cleanly, and it also popped and produced uneven-burning yellow flames.

I have not experimented with Everclear or rum. I did try 91% isopropyl at some point and it was awful, although I remember that Jon Fong at Flat Cat Stoves (https://www.flatcatgear.com/bobcat-cooking-system/) experimented with 'tuning' a setup to run well on rubbing alcohol.

EDIT: to correct name... FLAT cat gear and link to it.
We offer the Multi-Fuel Stove (formerly ISO-Clean) that was designed to burn isopropyl alcohol) without generating soot. It will also burn other fuels such as dentaured alcohol, gels, Sterno and Esbit. Best regards.
Here it a video of our latest revision - https://youtu.be/Niw-TCoCaHA

[Big_Old_Dog]

As a kid playing hockey on the ponds, one of the times I fell in, it was 15-20F. I was up to my neck. Tommy pulled me out. The older guys made me keep skating round and round. I was shivering so hard, I could barely skate. Soon, my jeans and jacket were frozen solid. Perfect to play goalie. I stayed and played.

I decided to upgrade my base layers. I have yak and alpaca coming. Should be fun to see which is better.

[d.o.c]

you should carry a stove warm food and drink is better than not having it for just a few ounces .. or just carry the cook pot and make a fire as needed i did that on my second thru hike but i personally preferred warm meals and tea/coffee durrimg my hike... up to you.. do not be uncomfortable over food and drink!

[cmoulder]

Do you use a BGET?
I did in the past but for a few years now I've used the Esbit Tri-Wing, so I don't need a separate pot stand and I find it quite stable. I use it pretty much exclusively with the Toaks 550 and a Ti foil windscreen.

[cmoulder]

We offer the Multi-Fuel Stove (formerly ISO-Clean) that was designed to burn isopropyl alcohol) without generating soot. It will also burn other fuels such as dentaured alcohol, gels, Sterno and Esbit. Best regards.
Here it a video of our latest revision - https://youtu.be/Niw-TCoCaHA

lol fun video! Now THAT's multi-fuel! :)

[garlic08]

As a kid playing hockey on the ponds, one of the times I fell in, it was 15-20F. I was up to my neck. Tommy pulled me out. The older guys made me keep skating round and round. I was shivering so hard, I could barely skate. Soon, my jeans and jacket were frozen solid. Perfect to play goalie. I stayed and played.

Great story. I grew up with older brothers like that, made sure you didn't get soft. We used to play hockey on a lake in Wisconsin. We'd build a fire right on the ice.

[George]

For these kinds of decisions I use an old bromide, "If there's a doubt, there is no doubt".

To help make your decision, here's a common scenario most everyone who does this runs into in some form or another:

A weather front stalls and sets up a multiple day rain, taking normal temperatures of 80 degrees into the 50 degree range with a 20 mph wind. Windchill drives temps into the low 40s/high 30s. Horizontal wind driven rain finds every entry point in rain gear as you walk to the planned campsite. Rain eases and fog/mist develops that is carried on the wind, permeating most any remaining dry clothing you are wearing. The ground is saturated, every rock and root a potential slip, your pace slows, you start to feel colder, decisions start to get a little difficult as hypothermia tests you and stage 1 begins. Daylight fades out before you reach the planned camping area and you have to make camp in the dark just as the heavy wind driven rain starts up again soaking you further, along with everything as it comes out of the pack. Your struggle with the tent in heavy rain and wind is maddening, you get impatient with things, you leave the pack uncovered because you are rushing and wind opens it to the weather. You manage to get the tent set up after a while but most all of your gear is now soaking wet. You are beyond wet and starting to shiver and you do not have a beanie hat to slow the immense heat loss from your head draining your body of heat and energy. Not much of a chance to get a fire going given conditions, so you close the tent and try to bundle up in wet clothing to warm as best you can but it doesn't happen, shivering becomes more intense. You have some cold water to drink but water has gotten into your snacks and food. You are leaving stage 1 hypothermia and entering stage 2.

Do you think something hot to drink would help right now?


this reminds me of a prairie home companion monologue - the answer at the end would be isn't this a good time for rhubarb pie

[George]

In a true emergency, I cannot think of a reason to not just build a fire to warm up. .


uhh, other than the conditions that lead to an "emergency" also make starting a fire unlikely

[George]

Nice, when I carry a stove, I use pure methanol that I get free at work, but you can't drink it:(

hiked with a chemical engineer - he was very adamant about the risks of using any methanol containing stove fuel, inhalation not just ingestion can cause brain damage etc........ does this explain some of what you have been posting?

[George]

I am planning NOBO start in late April/Early May from Springer..

most of the compelling arguments that a lack of stove could be considered less safe would be negated by your late start date

[Big_Old_Dog]

most of the compelling arguments that a lack of stove could be considered less safe would be negated by your late start date

Thanks. The start date is certainly a key part of the analysis and I said somewhere starting earlier would be a different story.

Thru my analysis, I looked at how much a "cold" human body would be warmed by 150 degree F liter of water. Not much. Maybe half of a degree.

Shivering consumes 400-800 calories per hour. It is very possible to run out of energy (glucose and glycogen) unless someone is very, very adapt at burning fat (enzymes and higher aerobic capacity). Anyway. The human body has a gross efficiency of 20-22%. So, 78-80% of this shivering energy goes into heat. I did make a calculation of how much energy and how much time it would take to warm from 92F (mild hypo) but did not share it and now forget the numbers. My conclusion was getting dry, into a shelter (tent, bag) with constantly nibbling food to maintain blood sugar levels is far more important to recovery than having a warm drink and there is research showing that a warm drink is counterproductive as the thermoreceptors in the gut shut down shivering for 10-20 minutes after the hot beverage hits. It would also argue to never let your glycogen stores to drop during the day. How? Maintain a slower pace especially ascending and constantly eat. Shivering is unmistakable and the sign to immediately take action. It is sort of like when you get a hot spot on your foot, you don't wait until getting to camp to address it.

As a result of the comments, I did give more thought to my old base layers to replace. I got some Yak bottoms and tops. Very warm but definitely not itch free. I can wear merino with no itching and I can tolerate the Yak (hollow fiber, warmer than merino, better with controlling evaporative losses). I'll see how the alpaca stuff goes when it arrives. I can't stand synthetics due to the stench after 3-4 days and the stink never seems to come out of the clothing.

[CalebJ]

I can't stand synthetics due to the stench after 3-4 days and the stink never seems to come out of the clothing.

Quick tangent on that topic - have you tried the laundry soaps that are designed for synthetic fabrics? They really do work far better at exactly what you're describing.

[Big_Old_Dog]

Quick tangent on that topic - have you tried the laundry soaps that are designed for synthetic fabrics? They really do work far better at exactly what you're describing.

Kind of hard to do that on trail? Are you talking about strong detergents? Nikiwas baseclean? Something else?

Synthetics stink on me after one day and after 3 days, I can't stand the odor. How often can one launder their baselayer on trail? Weekly? That would me 5-6 days of gross and 1-2 days of fresh. I find the difference worth the extra weight over synthetics.

[garlic08]

...It would also argue to never let your glycogen stores to drop during the day....

And this is pretty much the solution to most of life's problems (beside rhubarb pie). The best way to get warm is to never get cold to begin with.

And don't forget hydration. I've found it's more difficult to stop and get water in hypothermia weather than it is to stop and eat. If you plan it right and keep the right snacks in your pockets, you don't even have to stop to eat. But stopping to fill a water bottle from a cold stream when it's raining and you're near freezing is tough.

[CalebJ]

Kind of hard to do that on trail? Are you talking about strong detergents? Nikiwas baseclean? Something else?

Synthetics stink on me after one day and after 3 days, I can't stand the odor. How often can one launder their baselayer on trail? Weekly? That would me 5-6 days of gross and 1-2 days of fresh. I find the difference worth the extra weight over synthetics.

It was more a general comment on dealing with synthetic fabrics rather than specific to through hiking. If I use traditional laundry detergent then they'll smell clean after washing, but within a few minutes of becoming active again, it's like all the smell is suddenly released again. With one of the detergents designed for synthetic rather than natural fibers, they seem to actually come clean and not stink up quickly each time. Here's what I use (but there are plenty of options out there):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008D2AW14/

As to dealing with it during a thru hike, I don't have any sage advice.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

hiked with a chemical engineer - he was very adamant about the risks of using any methanol containing stove fuel, inhalation not just ingestion can cause brain damage etc........ does this explain some of what you have been posting?

Ouch, you got me good!

[AsoloBootsSuk]

hiked with a chemical engineer - he was very adamant about the risks of using any methanol containing stove fuel, inhalation not just ingestion can cause brain damage etc........ does this explain some of what you have been posting?

George are you saying you agree with your engineer friend that methanol should not be used in a stove?

[Alligator]

And this is pretty much the solution to most of life's problems (beside rhubarb pie). The best way to get warm is to never get cold to begin with.

And don't forget hydration. I've found it's more difficult to stop and get water in hypothermia weather than it is to stop and eat. If you plan it right and keep the right snacks in your pockets, you don't even have to stop to eat. But stopping to fill a water bottle from a cold stream when it's raining and you're near freezing is tough.Yes. Regularly spaced calories are very important to keeping warm. I don't use them as much as I used to but I used to carry a few Gu shots for a quick pick up if needed. I also just carry my day's hiking water in the winter as I will boil a liter and add 2 and stick that in an insulated pocket I made for my water bladder. It being cold becomes an excuse not to stop and get water that you might need, particularly if you don't seem thirsty.

[nsherry61]

. . . Thru my analysis, I looked at how much a "cold" human body would be warmed by 150 degree F liter of water. Not much. Maybe half of a degree. . .
I didn't comment on this the last time you were suggesting it. I think you have a good point, in that the heat from a warm beverage shouldn't be taken as the great panacea for hypothermia that it often comes across as.

BUT, it may also be worth considering that warming your core from within doesn't have to heat your whole body, only about 1/2 of it? So maybe that 1/2 degree becomes one degree.

Secondly, the heat being poured into ones core with warm beverage is an immediate warming whereas digesting calories and heat from the outside take time to raise core temperature.

So, I wouldn't be too quick to discount the value of that degree of immediate warmth from a warm drink. BUT, included with that warm drink needs to be reduced heat loss from exposure and significant food calories to enable longer term warming from the inside.

[cmoulder]

Kind of hard to do that on trail? Are you talking about strong detergents? Nikiwas baseclean? Something else?

Synthetics stink on me after one day and after 3 days, I can't stand the odor. How often can one launder their baselayer on trail? Weekly? That would me 5-6 days of gross and 1-2 days of fresh. I find the difference worth the extra weight over synthetics.
You can carry a 2-gallon ziploc, add clothes/water/detergent and get a fairly decent wash.

One thing about merino, relating to the hypothermia issue, is that for me it dries much slower than synthetics. I noticed this when I bought a very expensive Icebreaker T shirt, and also the fact that it wore out in no time flat. Maybe there are better options but that one expensive experiment soured me on the whole concept.

[nsherry61]

. . . I don't use them as much as I used to but I used to carry a few Gu shots for a quick pick up if needed. . .

Without a doubt, the most used part of my first-aid kit is the packet of hammer gel (not Gu) that I keep in their. The stories I can tell about what a little of the right mix of maltodextrin can do to uplift a failing body is extraordinary!

FWIW: I noted using Hammer Gel instead of Gu as the Hammer Gel has a significantly faster digesting mix of carbs. Whereas Gu provides a reliable and steady release of sugar into ones bloodstream and avoids a post-sugar crash, Hammer Gel has a different maltodextrin mix that provides significantly more rapidly digestible carbs and provides a significantly faster input of sugar into your bloodstream. For "crash recovery" there is no comparison and Hammer Gel (as the name implies) is the clear winter!

Ask me how I know this, other than marketing hype which doesn't really say this? My son is a type-1 diabetic so we can measure his body's response to different carbohydrate sources with his blood glucose meter. Hammer works great for glucose recovery, whereas Gu makes no measurable difference at all (at least in the first 20 minutes).

[Big_Old_Dog]

I didn't comment on this the last time you were suggesting it. I think you have a good point, in that the heat from a warm beverage shouldn't be taken as the great panacea for hypothermia that it often comes across as.

BUT, it may also be worth considering that warming your core from within doesn't have to heat your whole body, only about 1/2 of it? So maybe that 1/2 degree becomes one degree.

Secondly, the heat being poured into ones core with warm beverage is an immediate warming whereas digesting calories and heat from the outside take time to raise core temperature.

So, I wouldn't be too quick to discount the value of that degree of immediate warmth from a warm drink. BUT, included with that warm drink needs to be reduced heat loss from exposure and significant food calories to enable longer term warming from the inside.

130F is scalding but can be consumed right down. 150F can be sipped but no way to get a quart down. I was sort of already including that in my rough estimate. I'm 220# and a quart weighs 2#. So, a bit less than 1% of the temperature differential of 38 degrees gets me just under 0.4F and I rounded up. Sugar or some sort of carb in the beverage and reduced heat loss are far more important as you said.


....52°C fluid ingestion dramatically and rapidly reduced the metabolic rate

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5489010/