View Full Version : Sleep with food?
Bubblehead
02-28-2021, 12:04
I've been watching Quicksand's Youtube hiking videos...he does a great job...
I asked him does he hang his food....his reply is he always sleeps with it. And he is currently working on his third thru hike of the AT...I believe...
I can see possibly sleeping with your food if you're stealth camping away from a shelter...but sleeping with your food at or near a shelter would probably make others around you uncomfortable, IMO.
Am interested on what others think about sleeping with their food...
Creature Feature
02-28-2021, 12:16
He's just looking for trouble. He's only lucky trouble hasn't found him yet.
If the comparison is between the average mediocre hanging of a bear bag to sleeping with the food next to you, I'd endorse sleeping with it. Properly hung or a canister is a different story altogether.
LoneStranger
02-28-2021, 12:35
The bears that live near heavily traveled trails do not fear people. I sleep over my food frequently in real wilderness, but never on the AT except Winter. Wild bear figures its too dangerous to try to take your food, but the ones that aren't afraid of you will eat your lunch. I've decided to take the weight hit and switch to a canister because with more folks out on even deep remote trails these days those wild bears may not stay wild long.
To each their own, but if he's sleeping in a shelter and everyone else has taken the effort to hang their food but 1 person that's just straight up rude , inappropriate, and wrong on alot of levels.
Even for a YouTube star.
Slo-go'en
02-28-2021, 13:39
One evening I set up my tent in the general shelter area. Since it was raining and I was lazy, I put my food bag on the ground just outside my tent. Sure enough, mice got into it. Had I put it in my tent, no doubt I'd have a hole in both my food bag and my tent. Those mice know exactly where the peanuts are.
I sleep with my food unless I'm with a group who is hanging their food and then I do the socially correct thing and hang mine too using the PCT method. The only place I was super-careful with food was in Grizzly Bear country in Montana/Wyoming.
ldsailor
02-28-2021, 14:19
I always hung my food on the AT. Last year, I hiked the Colorado Trail where there are often no trees or no suitable trees, so I slept with my food. One night I left a bag of garbage out and this is what happened (pic below).
This year I'm going to do the Arizona Trail where, again, there can be a lack of trees. I've got odor proof bags to go inside my Ursack and they will both be outside and away from my tent if I can't find a suitable tree.
47420
I think that going as odor-proof as possible and sleeping with it is the best option unless there is a known bear issue at that location, then use a bear canister. 50+ years experience talking, plus many trips in Grizzly country in MT and Alaska.But you can't reason with inexperienced twits in shelters who will goad you for sleeping with your food. They say it endangers them, and that since the majority of sleepers in the shelter (a group of high school kids from Florida in my case) are voting against you, you have to hand over the food. Well, for one thing we don't live in a democracy, we live in a republic where individuals have rights that cannot be infringed. But in this case in the Roan Highlands we did produce our food, and a kid took it in back of the shelter "to hang". So there were no incidents with bears and I got up first in the morning and went to get my food, and found a huge bundle of food bags just hanging three feet from the ground where any animal could have had a feast. That was my bad experience with guilting from idiots from Florida. Never again going to give in to such pressure.
GolfHiker
02-28-2021, 15:06
To each their own, but if he's sleeping in a shelter and everyone else has taken the effort to hang their food but 1 person that's just straight up rude , inappropriate, and wrong on alot of levels.
Even for a YouTube star.
Bubblehead didn’t say if he was sleeping in shelters with his food, but if he is, then I’m 100% in agreement with JNI64. You simply don’t do that & a 2 time AT Thru should know that. As for the oft debated question of good vs. bad hanging, bears, mice, sleeping with food in tent, that’s been debated for years, and based on what you choose to believe, proceed with your own best judgement.
Big_Old_Dog
02-28-2021, 16:16
Talking about another guy's drinking problem on youtube, sleeping with food bag in shelter, and shoving a camera into other hiker's faces? What could go wrong.
Well, for one thing we don't live in a democracy, we live in a republic where individuals have rights that cannot be infringed
i didnt realize that sleeping with one's food while in the great outdoors was a right.......
must be amendment 28......
nsherry61
02-28-2021, 19:30
i didnt realize that sleeping with one's food while in the great outdoors was a right . . .
I think that's something that varies depending on who's jurisdiction the land you are in is under:
Some places it's illegal.
Some places it's not a problem and the most reasonable thing to do.
Some places it's a pretty sketchy if not downright stupid thing to do.
Some places, without legal precedent, it is probably considered or at least treated as a right.
Some places you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that gave a rip one way or the other.
Alas, I don't think this is a big enough concern to most of the country be a constitutional issue.
In the end, it all depends on where you are and who, if anyone is in charge.
Lone Wolf
02-28-2021, 19:46
i always sleep with my food in my tent. 35+ years now
justhike
02-28-2021, 20:39
Not a thru-hiker here. I have only done one LASH (352 miles north from Springer) on the AT (and getting ready to do the next 378 miles in a month...).
My LASH was late Sept-Oct 2020. What I did:
1) I decided not to carry a bear can. I have a can, and I would absolutely carry it out west and where required, but I am old and trying really hard to keep the weight of my pack managable so that I could be successful. It really did not seem like a necessity to me on the AT.
2) I purchased an Ursack in lieu of the can. I have an Opsak odor-reducing bag inside it. I knew that I would likely not be good at hanging a food bag even if I could find the perfect branch, and I knew that after a long day of hiking (I prefer to use the day's light to hike and limit time in camp) I would not want to deal with it. I gather from what I've read that most people don't manage to get proper hangs anyway. And I hate seeing the cut remnants of brightly-colored tangled lines littering the trees around shelters and campsites without cables.
3) Many shelter areas have bear cables or boxes. If they were present I absolutely used them.
4) when I was 'stealth' camping - which was fairly frequent - I mostly kept my food in my tent. It is all dry food, sealed in packaging or ziplocs, inside an Opsak and then in a drybag (used for cable hanging). I am a cold soaker and try to avoid opening fragrant foods in camp (I don't carry tuna packets or pepperoni; I eat my nut butter on the trail, etc). I think cooking spreads food smells more than my cold mocha or cold-soaked couscous & broccoli.
I think if hikers prepared food at locations other than shelters/campsites, those sleeping areas would be safer (and have fewer mice). Make your dinner on trail an hour before you get to camp; make your breakfast an hour after you leave.
5) I only deployed my Ursack a few times. Those times included any nights when there were other hikers camping nearby, as I would not want to be responsible for putting anyone else at risk. I also deployed my Ursack in locations where there were recent bear warnings or where I saw bear sign, or an actual bear that day. (and that bear took a dump about 50 yds up the trail from my campsite, but never bothered me or my Ursack...even though I ate peanut butter protein cookies for dinner that night in my tent and I was sure that the smell would cause bad things to happen....it was late, dark, and I was exhausted.....)
Traveler
03-01-2021, 08:29
I am trying to figure out if claims that making food "odor proof" for animals works, or is just campfire myth. Mice have olfactory bulbs 200 times larger than humans that are able to find specific scents among masking odors, coyotes have a sense of smell some 400 times better than humans (better than most domestic dogs), bears have a sense of smell that is 2,100 times more sensitive. This makes it highly improbable masking food odors works. Like Slo-Go'en I have had my tent gnawed through by mice, literally in a matter of minutes of getting it set up, to reach a partially eaten granola bar in it. I was amazed how fast that occurred.
Hanging food (as pointed out above properly) protects ones food and tent fabric. Trying to mask food odors may work with human olfactory sense, but animals with sense of smell hundreds of times more sensitive can sort them out much like human eyesight can find pine trees in a standing forest when looking at vistas. Trouble found me a few times as rodents chewed their way into my tent or pack, I decided to get good hanging food before the bear showed up to create mischief.
Bubblehead
03-01-2021, 08:41
I've never slept with my food just to let everyone know. Just wanted to see what others thought on the subject. Thanks to everyone for their discussion...
Bubblehead
03-01-2021, 08:50
I also took a bear cannister with me in 2019 on my LASH from NY to NH...this year I'm going to lighten my load and take my Zpacks food bag with me, and I am going to learn the PCT hang method before I head out...
colorado_rob
03-01-2021, 08:53
Here's how effective "odor proof" sacks are....
(~2am in the Sierra, a medium sized bear ripped open my wife's pack; she had inadvertently left a baggie of Gatorade powder, red, the baggie inside an OP sack inside her pack laying just outside our tent overnight; this pic is her pack repacked the next morning, the straps on the bottom held the whole thing together for the rest of the trip).
I had a similar thing happen to me a few decades ago in CO, sorry no pic to share, it was pre-digital era.
Ancient, tired argument, hanging or sleeping with food. We hang, unless we can't (no trees). Easy peasy.
Looks like a blood bath!
I got off the Opsak train really quick when I first started backpacking. For one, their durability is horrendous. They kept breaking at the zip lock. I remember being excited seeing a stack of them in the kitchen of a hostel and thinking I found a replacement for my latest broken one, only to find that every.single.one was broken in some fashion.
Two, the claims of them being odor-proof just never rang true to me. I guess I could fill one up with a brick of week and speed through a place where it's illegal. But knowing what I know of animal senses, I doubt they help much.
Mouser999
03-01-2021, 12:31
New Jersey has some pretty big bear boxes near shelters and signs stating "Your're in Bear Country, Be Bear Aware". I made it a pont to follow the use of the boxes.
Starchild
03-01-2021, 12:38
I slept with my food on multiple occasions on my thru. Though I would use provided cables/box/poles. I would also do what is customary if I used a shelter with others, or areas with bear activity. But even when I didn't sleep with my food, I would often have some food with me after I learned about hiker hunger. One night I had to eat in the middle of the night, which I had to get my food off a bear pole, so I was clanging around in the dark to pull it down. Everyone in the shelter (also thru hikers) understood, but from that point on I always had something with me to snack on if and when that hit.
colorado_rob
03-01-2021, 12:46
Looks like a blood bath!
I got off the Opsak train really quick when I first started backpacking. For one, their durability is horrendous... The "blood" on the ripped pack was red gatorade powder residue. And boy, did it stink! Bear slobber mixed with gatorade???
And yeah, maybe, just maybe OP sacks actually work briefly, when brand new. The OP sack the bear ripped out of that pack was a week old.
While I am not a thru-hiker, I have completed over 1,000 miles of the AT. Two years ago while staying at a shelter in the northern part of the Smoky's, we woke up to a guy screaming, "Get out of Here" at a bear that had come INTO the shelter and was standing in front of the fireplace. It took a lot of screaming - and then banging hiking poles ... and one guy jumped out at it chasing it off while screaming and banging poles together - to get it to retreat into the woods. The next morning, a gal turned to the guy she was with and said, "Gee, I told you not to bring your food in here with you." The guy had hung his backpack and hiking boots, yet he brought his food into the shelter. The bright side / Karma to this was that it rained during the night, and his boots had puddles of water in them.
Alligator
03-01-2021, 19:29
You just have to use Saran Wrap (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaDT8zLcvYk).
You just have to use Saran Wrap (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaDT8zLcvYk).
Much respect for holding on to a link (for years?) until the perfect posting time and place. :banana
Two years ago while staying at a shelter in the northern part of the Smoky's, we woke up to a guy screaming, "Get out of Here" at a bear that had come INTO the shelter and was standing in front of the fireplace
i'll take a guess and say this was Cosby Knob shelter...
this shelter and russell field shelter (and i would imagine others, i just know specifically about these two and bears) have
"resident" bears that hang around the shelter.....
if a pack (even empty) is left at shelter, and there's no one around, bears have been known to come around
and snatch the bag.........
the bears have learned to associate a bag with food......
so they take that chance.........
I think that's something that varies depending on who's jurisdiction the land you are in is under:
Some places it's illegal.
True. And even the better informed locals might not be aware.
For example anywhere in the Whites you are required to use a bear box or canister or hang 10’ up (4’ horizontal). Here is the actual reg:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5275812.pdf
Violators will be eaten (AT Reference intentional)
Odd Man Out
03-01-2021, 22:18
I am trying to figure out if claims that making food "odor proof" for animals works, or is just campfire myth. Mice have olfactory bulbs 200 times larger than humans that are able to find specific scents among masking odors, coyotes have a sense of smell some 400 times better than humans (better than most domestic dogs), bears have a sense of smell that is 2,100 times more sensitive. This makes it highly improbable masking food odors works. Like Slo-Go'en I have had my tent gnawed through by mice, literally in a matter of minutes of getting it set up, to reach a partially eaten granola bar in it. I was amazed how fast that occurred.
Hanging food (as pointed out above properly) protects ones food and tent fabric. Trying to mask food odors may work with human olfactory sense, but animals with sense of smell hundreds of times more sensitive can sort them out much like human eyesight can find pine trees in a standing forest when looking at vistas. Trouble found me a few times as rodents chewed their way into my tent or pack, I decided to get good hanging food before the bear showed up to create mischief.
I agree that "odor proof" is an inaccurate term. But this does not mean it plays no role in food storage. The science behind keeping your food with you 24/7 (i.e. "sleep with your food") is that bear's desire to avoid you is greater than their desire to get your food. So the strategy of keeping your food in an odor barrier bag to minimize the food smell is only half of the strategy. The other half is to maximize the smell of you. This is why you should avoid fruity smelling toiletries, or washing in general. The goal is to smell more than the food.
On my first AT hike (central VA), I used the famous trash compactor bag as a pack liner and a Spectra fiber food bag with regular zip lock bags to keep things organized. After 5 days on the trail, everything in my pack smelled of what I had been eating for the past 5 days. I decided the best food bag hang was of little use if I am sleeping in a cheese and sausage scented sleeping bag. So after that trip I got some Nylobarrier odor barrier bags. The large one is the size of a pack liner. All clothes and sleeping bag go in there. The small one is the size of the food bag. All the food goes in there. Thus there are two odor barriers between my food and my sleeping gear. Now, even when my garbage bag is getting good and ripe, I notice no odors. I'm not claiming that the animals can't smell them, but if I notice it less, then certainly the animals notice it less and that must be a good thing.
I would also point out that in these discussions, there is always someone who cites an incident where a bear gets at an unattended food container and thinks this is somehow relevant to the discussion. If there is one thing all can agree on is you should never leave your food unattended. That's why I don't like the term "sleep with food". The strategy is really "keep your food with you 24/7". You NEVER NEVER leave it unattended. It is to be in your possession at all times. Much is made of poor bear bagging technique. This certainly contributes to bad bear behavior. But leaving food unattended also teaches bears that unattended tents and backpacks are good places to find food. But note that a backpack or tent with a person is NOT a good place to get food (from the bear's perspective).
Dropdeadfred
03-02-2021, 01:40
Like the other thread,, everyone and their brother eating, cooking, dropping crumbs, stuffing trash,,, in and around camp areas, and folks get hung up on someone with food in their ruck ?
I suggest if you are worried about critters stay away from the shelters.
Like the other thread,, everyone and their brother eating, cooking, dropping crumbs, stuffing trash,,, in and around camp areas, and folks get hung up on someone with food in their ruck ?
I suggest if you are worried about critters stay away from the shelters.
That's the ticket. Avoid established camping areas - especially shelters.
I’ve slept with my food on a few occasions with my food in opsacks (which I’m skeptical of). A couple of times on the Colorado trail above tree line and once on the Foothills trail on a winter hike when I arrived near dark, was dead tired, and it was super cold. No incidents but I have to say that I sleep better with my food securely stored, either hung using PCT method or in a canister. In some ways my hikes in the Sierra Nevada have less hassle factor because I have to carry my bearikade canister. Just finish eating and place canister 30 or 40 feet away. Done.
LittleRock
03-02-2021, 09:40
I hang if and only if I'm staying in a shelter (rare) and there's no bear box or cables. If tenting, I'll use bear box or cables if available, otherwise I sleep with my food in my tent. I keep all food and trash inside ziplock bags, inside my food bag, and cook away from my tent unless it's pouring outside. I usually can't smell my food even if I press my nose into the food bag. This is really just a personal preference - I sleep much better knowing my food is right next to me.
IMHO, the ATC should require either cables or bear box at every shelter and established campsite. I think this would cut down on a lot of the improper food storage issues. At most of the shelters I have been to where there was neither bear box nor cables, there were also no useable branches for hanging within 200 ft. of the shelter. Previous hikers had probably pulled them all down over time.
IMHO, the ATC should require either cables or bear box at every shelter and established campsite.
eventually, it will come down to this....
right now (and since it's way cheaper than putting a box or cables up)---they recommending using a canister.....
I suppose the ATC can recommend anything they what, but they do not and should not, have the authority to require anything.
Used to be everyone hanged their food at the front of the shelter, and any suggestion to do otherwise would have been laughed at.
When and how did that change?
LoneStranger
03-03-2021, 09:32
I suppose the ATC can recommend anything they what, but they do not and should not, have the authority to require anything.
Used to be everyone hanged their food at the front of the shelter, and any suggestion to do otherwise would have been laughed at.
When and how did that change?
Just a guess, but I'd say when the bears started coming into the shelter to grab the bags smart folks figured out that if the bears were going to change their behavior it might be a good idea if people did too. Shelter mice have mutated into gravity defying, bag devouring demons in recent years anyway so I'm thinking canisters really are the future.
nsherry61
03-03-2021, 13:34
. . . Used to be everyone hanged their food at the front of the shelter, and any suggestion to do otherwise would have been laughed at.
When and how did that change?
When the most feared pest changed from a mouse to a bear.
. . . I'm thinking canisters really are the future.
I'm thinking canisters are a responsible PART of the futures, not unlike the present. To think there is, or ever will be, a reasonable one-size-fits-all-all-the-time solution is silly.
LoneStranger
03-03-2021, 14:05
I'm thinking canisters are a responsible PART of the futures, not unlike the present. To think there is, or ever will be, a reasonable one-size-fits-all-all-the-time solution is silly.
Well you are welcome to that thought. TYOT as they say. Hope you don't mind if I do likewise.
And, Rickb, in1983 there was much lower human density on the AT.
Night Train
03-04-2021, 11:52
I also took a bear cannister with me in 2019 on my LASH from NY to NH...this year I'm going to lighten my load and take my Zpacks food bag with me, and I am going to learn the PCT hang method before I head out...
Is it a question of weight? Pack room? I would like to hear your thoughts on it. In full disclosure I have always slept with my food and never had an issue, but that doesn't mean someday I won't encounter a problem. I agree, canisters are a prudent option and I will be purchasing one for bowhunt out west this year.
nsherry61
03-04-2021, 14:00
Well you are welcome to that thought. TYOT as they say. Hope you don't mind if I do likewise.
How boring would these forums be if we all thought the same?
As for TYOT, I was using a bear canister in Denali National Part in 1988 and 1989. A whole lot more than 10 years ago.
I've slept with my food most of my life as that's what people did historically, and that's how I learned.
In 1990, in a remote'ish area of Olympic National Park, at the end of a long day hiking along a dry ridgeline in the rain without enough water, we saw 11 black bear and a cougar. That afternoon, when we decided to make camp, there was a bear browsing up on the ridge above us. But, since there were bear everywhere we turned (all the rest of which were close enough they ran away when we walk by), we gave up trying to find a place without a bear, pitched our tent, put our pots out to collect rain water, stuffed our food inside our tent with us, went to sleep, woke up the next day with overflowing pots (It apparently rained 7 inches that night). BUT, the area was not heavily traveled by people. At that point in time, outside of a few areas in the country with problem bears, nobody ever thought about using bear canisters, and, in this case, we didn't use one.
To suggest that the world is evolving toward everyone using bear canisters (if that is what you are doing) is absurd! There are times and places where they are the best option. There are times and places where using them would serve no purpose whatsoever. There are places, like the High Peaks area in the Adirondacks, where bear canisters (many commonly used and otherwise respected and yes, certified ones ones) have proven to be quite inadequate as the pile of destroyed bear canisters at the ranger station would imply.
And finally, there are times (probably most) where there is no clear and unambiguous right or best answer and we all have to use our personal best judgement, and then trash our friends on-line for not sharing our own personal risk aversion or sets of expectations.
LoneStranger
03-04-2021, 15:06
How boring would these forums be if we all thought the same?
As for TYOT, I was using a bear canister in Denali National Part in 1988 and 1989. A whole lot more than 10 years ago.
I've slept with my food most of my life as that's what people did historically, and that's how I learned.
In 1990, in a remote'ish area of Olympic National Park, at the end of a long day hiking along a dry ridgeline in the rain without enough water, we saw 11 black bear and a cougar. That afternoon, when we decided to make camp, there was a bear browsing up on the ridge above us. But, since there were bear everywhere we turned (all the rest of which were close enough they ran away when we walk by), we gave up trying to find a place without a bear, pitched our tent, put our pots out to collect rain water, stuffed our food inside our tent with us, went to sleep, woke up the next day with overflowing pots (It apparently rained 7 inches that night). BUT, the area was not heavily traveled by people. At that point in time, outside of a few areas in the country with problem bears, nobody ever thought about using bear canisters, and, in this case, we didn't use one.
To suggest that the world is evolving toward everyone using bear canisters (if that is what you are doing) is absurd! There are times and places where they are the best option. There are times and places where using them would serve no purpose whatsoever. There are places, like the High Peaks area in the Adirondacks, where bear canisters (many commonly used and otherwise respected and yes, certified ones ones) have proven to be quite inadequate as the pile of destroyed bear canisters at the ranger station would imply.
And finally, there are times (probably most) where there is no clear and unambiguous right or best answer and we all have to use our personal best judgement, and then trash our friends on-line for not sharing our own personal risk aversion or sets of expectations.
I would ask that you stop putting words into my mouth and then attacking me for things I didn't say. It is very rude and does nothing to further dialogue. I'd explain what I did say, but based on your posts in this thread I'm not about to waste my time.
Big_Old_Dog
03-04-2021, 16:06
Not that my opinion matters much but a bear cannister is way too heavy and takes way too much room for me. It seems to me a cannister attempts to solve a problem that in the East only exists in limited areas where hikers congregate and cook and drop food near where they sleep. I have only ever slept with my food but my camping has also been in remote sites or where others have not trained them to associate us with food. If I was in a shelter, I wouldn't want to make anyone uncomfortable, so, I would use whatever facility was provided or throw a hang for the rats.
Heavy duty child proof, smell proof mylar bags that hold 1 #10 can of MountainHouse Rice and Chicken have worked really well for me inside my tent. I've tested the bags by putting fishy Fancy Feast cat food in them and left out overnight for 2 nights in my yard. No animals touched/disturbed them. My yard has opossum, racoon and feral cats as a good testing place for the bags. There is a time and place for the special FunkGuard type bag.
Five Tango
03-04-2021, 20:02
I keep my food in an odor resistant bag inside the Ursack Allwhite with the metal liner.Real convenient to hang,preferably find a tree with a fork in it and tie it off.Also makes a pretty decent stool if you put a couple seat pads on it.
I use the system rather than sleep with my food because if I had a problem that went bad I would not want everyone criticizing me afterwards for "breaking the rules".Besides,I don't want to have an encounter with any sort of hungry critter.
Just an observation on OP sacks. When they are new and the closure works well, they contain odors pretty well. so well that I keep mothballs in an OP sack in my vehicle to sprinkle on the ground under my engine compartment if I park it where I think porcupines might molest my engine components while I'm away for a few days. When I leave I pick the mothballs back up and put them back in the OP sack. I keep this OP sac in the vehicle year-round and never smell them unless I open the sack. Maybe if I was a bear, I could smell the mothballs, who knows.
When used on trail, even when careful, because you are taking food out, putting trash in, etc., it does not take long for the outside of the OP sack to become a smellable object, and of course the zip closure is also a common source of failure. So in practical terms, unless you are going to use a new one every other resupply or so, I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to trust the odor reduction. YMMV.
I've been watching Quicksand's Youtube hiking videos...he does a great job...
I asked him does he hang his food....his reply is he always sleeps with it. And he is currently working on his third thru hike of the AT...I believe...
I can see possibly sleeping with your food if you're stealth camping away from a shelter...but sleeping with your food at or near a shelter would probably make others around you uncomfortable, IMO.
Am interested on what others think about sleeping with their food...
You will experience much less stress using a bear can.
TwoSpirits
03-05-2021, 09:39
Just another anecdote about OPSacks -- my lessons learned and observations after using them since 2014:
I learned early that the zip seal is a little bit harder to seal than a regular Ziploc; it seems to me that it takes more pressure as you slide your fingers across the seal. You really have to be sure that every inch is in fact sealed, because I was fooled a couple of times.
The seal will fail if you overfill it -- the seal itself stays sealed, but the plastic on either side of the seal will tear away due to the strain. Once I realized I had to use common sense, I didn't have a problem.
The plastic is stiffer and more heavy-duty of course than a regular Ziploc, and maybe it's my imagination but seemed less pliable in very cold temps and made me worry about making little "micro-cracks", so I try to be more mindful and careful in handling it in the winter. That being said, I haven't ever noticed any cracks or tears after these trips (I zip up an empty bag and immerse in a sink of water, and no bubbles indicating a leak.) That all being said, I have replaced my big food OPSack once, not because I had noticed any flaws, but I had had it for a few years and was going into the Shenandoah, and just felt like I was buying insurance.
My own little test and observation on how "smell-proof" it really is:
I have a beagle, and beagles are known to be one of those dogs with super noses. And her super nose super loves roast pork, among other things. From the minute the food is on the counter, she doesn't care if the world ends -- she is completely focused on the smell of the meat. One day I decided to test one of my OPSacks -- one that I've had for a while. I put some meat in it, surreptitiously put the bag up on a bookcase, and brought the dog in as per usual to sit and play and irritate me...which she did, absolutely according to script. Didn't stick her nose in the air once. Over the course of a couple hours, I would sneak the bag around the room, gradually getting lower and closer, and still no change in her behavior. Eventually I had that bag of pork on a coffee table, and she could have snatched it any time she wanted. She never indicated she knew it was there.
Yes, I know science says that a bear's sense of smell is thousands of times more sensitive than a dog's, but I still thought that this was instructive.
I usually pack dry, packed, sealed, "unsmelly" foods in my food OPSack -- if anything, my trash bag is WAY more smelly than my food sack (and I use a ziploc or two inside a small OPSack for that as well.) I wipe my hands down with a WetWipe after putting my food back, and also wipe the outside of the sack before I put it away in the Ursack -- which is tied up to a tree, or in my tent with me (depending on where I am and my best judgment. )
To date, I haven't ever noticed any bear or other critter bothering my food/trash bags.
Just my experience.
Big_Old_Dog
03-05-2021, 09:47
Anybody use "Smelly Bag" brand? They come in a variety of sizes and are pretty cheap
stephanD
03-05-2021, 10:06
I keep my food in an odor resistant bag inside the Ursack Allwhite with the metal liner.Real convenient to hang,preferably find a tree with a fork in it and tie it off.Also makes a pretty decent stool if you put a couple seat pads on it.
I use the system rather than sleep with my food because if I had a problem that went bad I would not want everyone criticizing me afterwards for "breaking the rules".Besides,I don't want to have an encounter with any sort of hungry critter.
It is nice to meet a like minded person. I have the Ursack Allmitey 10 liters sack and could not be happier. It pains me that this 100% Made in the USA product does not get much love from the hiking community nor from the authorities. It has the best of both worlds; it is light weight and bear/critters resistant. You don't need to find that perfect branch to hang your food at the end of a long hiking day and you can go to sleep without worrying that some rodent will chew into your food bag even if it is hang the PCT method, which few are skilled at. I know there's an old YouTube video circulating showing a shredded Ursack bag but it is, as mentioned, old. And if one worries about their food being banged up by a bear, they can use the liner. I, personally, never sleep neither with food nor with anything that has odor (hand sanitizer, toothpaste, creams/lotions) in my tent. My greatest nightmare is a rodent chewing in my tent while asleep, spreading their feces/urine all over and leaving a tick or two as a bonus. And, finally, they may be on the pricey side but will probably last for a life time.
For what it's worth, I've seen an ursack bag shredded first hand. That was in the spring of 2018. The company did provide a replacement, but that's not much consolation IMO.
rmitchell
03-05-2021, 10:27
.................
i'll take a guess and say this was Cosby Knob shelter...
That would be my guess also. Usually Cosby Knob is closed for several weeks each summer due to "aggressive bear activity".
I had a conversation with a Smokies biologist about Russell Field. He said the problem is not one bear but a generation of bears. Mother bear has taught cubs how to get an easy meal.
this shelter and russell field shelter (and i would imagine others, i just know specifically about these two and bears) have
"resident" bears that hang around the shelter.....
if a pack (even empty) is left at shelter, and there's no one around, bears have been known to come around
and snatch the bag.........
the bears have learned to associate a bag with food......
so they take that chance.........
ldsailor
03-05-2021, 11:04
Anybody use "Smelly Bag" brand? They come in a variety of sizes and are pretty cheap
I just bought a large size for my Ursack and a smaller size to hold garbage for my upcoming thru of the Arizona Trail. I'll report back how they do. I leave in two weeks.
stephanD
03-05-2021, 11:30
For what it's worth, I've seen an ursack bag shredded first hand. That was in the spring of 2018. The company did provide a replacement, but that's not much consolation IMO.
The AllMitey is made of Kevlar and there's no way a bear can chew into it.
The Ursack I'm referring to was one of their Kevlar sacks. Chewed or not, the bag was shredded and covered with bear slobber, and the contents were spread out on the ground.
47432
stephanD
03-05-2021, 12:21
They say "Any publicity is good publicity". Well, such a picture cannot be good publicity, I must admit. I just hope the company fixed what has to be fixed and that the bag shown is the exception to the rule, not the rule.
Same. I like the concept, but it will take some convincing for me to go down that road after seeing that happen.
I have been on the fence about purchasing a canister for some time now. The biggest hangup is that it simply wouldn't fit in the packs I use most of the year. As a result, I carry a bear bag kit and use it anytime I can find a -good- branch to use. The night the ursack incident happened, I couldn't find one. My own food bag was under my head as a pillow, maybe 50 feet from where the ursack was.
stephanD
03-05-2021, 13:39
Same. I like the concept, but it will take some convincing for me to go down that road after seeing that happen.
I have been on the fence about purchasing a canister for some time now. The biggest hangup is that it simply wouldn't fit in the packs I use most of the year. As a result, I carry a bear bag kit and use it anytime I can find a -good- branch to use. The night the ursack incident happened, I couldn't find one. My own food bag was under my head as a pillow, maybe 50 feet from where the ursack was.
There are two issues here: (A) sleeping with food; yes/no and (B) food storage. As I wrote in my previous post, I never sleep with food not so much because of fear of a bear attack, I just cannot stand the thought of a mouse/mice in my tent while I'm asleep. That's my phobia. As for food storage, I have to admit i'm too lazy to do the hanging thing. I do own a BV-450 container and I really want to like it but.....the weight. It is over two pounds and there is no way around it. So, for myself, My AllMitey Ursack is the best solution for now until something better comes along.
Understood. I'm definitely not espousing sleeping with your food as the solution to much of anything. I just see it as a step above the horrific bear hangs that are so often visible along the trail.
Five Tango
03-05-2021, 14:04
Ursacks made after April 1,2014 are IGBC certified as bear resistant.The Ursack will have a tag sewed into it which is indicative of the certification.Tom Cohen,president of company ,said some of the early generation bags did have some issues particularly with improperly stichted seams.My bag has the certification tag.Doesn't make it bear proof
just bear resistant.I think some bears have gotten into cannisters in the past,rare though but it's happened.Nothing says a bear can't play soccer with your cannister all night to the point that you will never locate it in the morning either unless you did a good job of securing it.
I use the 22 guage aluminum liner in my Ursack plus I cut a piece of roof flashing to put in the bottom to make it that much harder for ol Smokey to get a good grip on my breakfast.The odor barrier bag probably keeps the odor profile lower and it definitely keeps the contents dry which is just as important.
One thing to note about Ursacks is you want a tree that is forked enough high enough off the ground so the bear can't get his back feet into the game.Personally,I think it would take a Grizzly to get past my liner and if I were in Grizzly country I would be packing a hard cannister,not a sack.
FWIW, the bear that tried to get into my can did not play soccer with it. It got the can out of some bushes where I stashed and I found it about ten feet away. The greater fear is it rolling down the hill, off the cliff, etc. so plan accordingly. My can (bareboxer) has slightly tapered ends so it will not roll straight. In the roll test I've done with it, it will either spin of move in a large circle.
stephanD
03-05-2021, 15:12
Ursacks made after April 1,2014 are IGBC certified as bear resistant.The Ursack will have a tag sewed into it which is indicative of the certification.Tom Cohen,president of company ,said some of the early generation bags did have some issues particularly with improperly stichted seams.My bag has the certification tag.Doesn't make it bear proof
just bear resistant.I think some bears have gotten into cannisters in the past,rare though but it's happened.Nothing says a bear can't play soccer with your cannister all night to the point that you will never locate it in the morning either unless you did a good job of securing it.
I use the 22 guage aluminum liner in my Ursack plus I cut a piece of roof flashing to put in the bottom to make it that much harder for ol Smokey to get a good grip on my breakfast.The odor barrier bag probably keeps the odor profile lower and it definitely keeps the contents dry which is just as important.
One thing to note about Ursacks is you want a tree that is forked enough high enough off the ground so the bear can't get his back feet into the game.Personally,I think it would take a Grizzly to get past my liner and if I were in Grizzly country I would be packing a hard cannister,not a sack.
Thank you for all the good information. I'm gonna check my Ursack for the tag you are talking about. Also, good distinction between bear proof and bear resistant. I heard that some bears learned how to open the Bear Vault containers but I do not think a bear can open those containers with the screws unless they learned how to use a screwdriver :-?. Good advice about the tree, never thought of this. I agree that all this applied to black bears, which are not as ferocious and aggressive as Grizzlies.
gpburdelljr
03-05-2021, 17:15
https://www.outsideonline.com/2013656/yosemite-bears-keep-getting-smarter
Five Tango
03-05-2021, 18:09
The bear that figured out how to open the BV500 is likely smarter than I am.It requires some focus and concentration on my part to find the button on that thing and get the lid off.........:banana
ldsailor
03-06-2021, 13:28
Here is more proof that the Ursack is not invulnerable. Below are two links to Facebook posts, which report destruction of their Ursack bags. One poster provided pictures, which I copied below.
Ursack destroyed -1 (https://www.facebook.com/groups/424793578067731/permalink/711630289384057)
Ursack destroyed -2 (https://www.facebook.com/groups/424793578067731/permalink/762202140993538)
47438
47439
Has anyone ever made a titanium canister? I’m sure it would be Uber pricey.
The devil is in the details. Situations matter. And since I don't know these details as they apply to Quicksand's approach I'll with hold harsh judgement as to if he is wrong or right.
First, if recalling correctly it is mandatory in some areas to hang or protect food other than sleeping with it on the AT ie; AT through GSMNP, bear canisters in a small GA AT section if sleeping in these sections.
I mostly sleep with and hang food. The food sack can be my pillow. It definitely is not without food protection from wildlife issues! I mostly open A frame tarp, cowboy, and bivy camp. I may include OpSaks. I largely and preferably don't sleep in beaten down established CS's which wildlife may already key on based on previous problematic human food practices; this alone reduces problematic human and wildlife experiences for me. I often sleep in different clothing I cooked in. In known problematic areas I avoid taking the smelliest choicest food like like sardines, tuna, processed meats, etc. When choosing to sleep with food it is not in Grizzly territory. It will not deter persistent wildlife like mice. It may not deter black or brown bears.
On a Hayduke Tr thru hike in Bryce Canyon NP a small black bear tried to pull my food bag out from under my head when cowboy camping. Food was stored in OpSaks inside a folded closed Sea to Summit Ultra Sil Nan Dry Sack. Awakening to this experience was alarming and enlightening. In hindsight I made the mistake of eating where I slept and may very well have had food odors and particles in and around my mouth. My poor hygiene on that occasion may be the primary cause of that experience.
On an AT NOBO thru hike around Watauga Dam I stored food in the interior of a 1 p closed tent inside a mesh tent storage pocket. It was a half eaten trail bar, a sealed unopened one, and a closed packet of nut butter. I ignorantly left a pot of half eaten cooked food outside the tent yet hung my food bag. Duh. In the middle of the night a large black bear snorted and sniffed outside the tent directly where on the inside of the tent was the storage pocket. The large bear stepped on and tried to scratch at the tent wall to get at the food. The bear stepped on me sleeping inside the tent when it almost fully knocked the tent. When I was awakened I yelled. The bear backed off and went around to the food pot and got that. Fortunately, despite my gross neglect, laziness, and ignorance I was not hurt and got all my gear back. HOWEVER, how others may have previously behaved, and I certainly did, with problematic food protection now may have habituated a large dangerous black bear to seek human food. So, even though I was able to fight off black bears under both scenarios the reality is I may have created more of a wildlife problem for others in the future!
colorado_rob
03-06-2021, 16:21
Has anyone ever made a titanium canister? I’m sure it would be Uber pricey.And Uber heavy.
Berikade (wild-ideas) makes carbon fiber canisters, pricey, but almost a pound lighter than the blue-plastic or black plastic canisters. I sprung for the $300 for my Berikade years ago when we hiked where canisters were required, and now use it quite regularly in places where it's not required, makes storing food a no-brainer and makes a nice little camp chair. That all being said, on the AT I just hang or use cables, etc, when available.
This is the negative consequence of sleeping with food that you'll rarely find others responsibly sharing about their behavior...how it affects a larger whole, humans, wildlife and the greater ecosystem.
LoneStranger
03-06-2021, 17:10
And Uber heavy.
Berikade (wild-ideas) makes carbon fiber canisters, pricey, but almost a pound lighter than the blue-plastic or black plastic canisters. I sprung for the $300 for my Berikade years ago when we hiked where canisters were required, and now use it quite regularly in places where it's not required, makes storing food a no-brainer and makes a nice little camp chair. That all being said, on the AT I just hang or use cables, etc, when available.
Just finished loading up my Blazer for three nights in the snow. Going to warm up this week and a hungry bear might wake up and be wandering around, but mostly I'm bringing it because it fits inside my winter pack and as you mention, it makes a nice seat :)
I slept with my food in a light food bag about the last quarter of my trip. I was just tired of hanging it every night and nothing ever bothered me. I also rubbed olive oil all over my body like my Spartan ancestors did before sleep in case something wanted to grapple. The first two sentences are true.
On an AT NOBO thru hike around Watauga Dam.......... HOWEVER, how others may have previously behaved, and I certainly did, with problematic food protection now may have habituated a large dangerous black bear to seek human food. So, even though I was able to fight off black bears under both scenarios the reality is I may have created more of a wildlife problem for others in the future!
that area had enough bear activity and human interaction that they had to tear
the shelter down as a result........
and can't camp between 321 and the dam road (watauga dam)........
Don’t smart AT hikers know where bears may be a problem — via grapevine, registers, signage etc.?
LazyLightning
03-07-2021, 10:42
I was always in my tent so I never worried about what others did with their food figuring if a bear comes around I'm going to be one of the last things it's interested in checking out...
I also got a bearikade and switched to the canister for convenience and cause there also, bug/rodent ect. proof, particularly flying squirrel proof.
I’m taking Section Hiker and Surka’s lead and going Ursack, on he AT. They have new, lighter Almightys. Hanging is a pain, canisters do seem heavier and bulky. And it will give me more confidence tossing the bag into a bear box that is probably a mouse larder.
If one of those seemingly unusual failures happens, I’ll just hike out hungry.
And the risk/reward ratio just doesn’t seem to work for me on sleeping with your food.
Too bad they haven’t found a scent that bears just abhor. Clearly from the bear in the privy story floating around, that must be a high bar.
illabelle
03-07-2021, 12:49
i slept with my food in a light food bag about the last quarter of my trip. I was just tired of hanging it every night and nothing ever bothered me. I also rubbed olive oil all over my body like my spartan ancestors did before sleep in case something wanted to grapple. The first two sentences are true.
:d ........
illabelle
03-07-2021, 12:51
:d ........
that was supposed to be a big grin!
what happened to the emojis??
that was supposed to be a big grin!
what happened to the emojis??
:) :) :) :):),:-? ???
nsherry61
03-07-2021, 13:56
. . .Too bad they haven’t found a scent that bears just abhor. . .
Abhor may not be quite the right word, but they have.
There are at least two things widely used by hunters in bear country when one has to make multiple trips, often over a couple of days to carry out a large kill like a moose. But when backpacking, most of us don't want to carry a 1/2 lb of pepper to dump all over our tent before we pee on it and crawl in for safe night's sleep with our food. :rolleyes:
Abhor may not be quite the right word, but they have.
There are at least two things widely used by hunters in bear country when one has to make multiple trips, often over a couple of days to carry out a large kill like a moose. But when backpacking, most of us don't want to carry a 1/2 lb of pepper to dump all over our tent before we pee on it and crawl in for safe night's sleep with our food. :rolleyes:
Yeah, that doesn’t sound practical or pleasant
Big_Old_Dog
03-07-2021, 17:11
Here is my rant with them......they don't seem to stock anything. Everything seems made to order and the leadtimes on their website are very optimistic.
gpburdelljr
03-07-2021, 23:00
that was supposed to be a big grin!
what happened to the emojis??
Given the context, I thought :d meant “tongue in cheek”.
I met some folks in Tennessee whose tent was torn open by bears who smelled Snickers bars inside. Those same bears also defeated the food-bag hanging device at the shelter adjacent to where they had their tent. Smart, determined bears that weren't messing around. Everyone lost their food.
What was it 5or 6 years ago the RTC had to put bear boxes towards MCcafees knoB and bear warnings are out it that area each year. The bears are not getting alot of food in Virginia. The acorns are down so bears are going after packs open food etc. ITvactually pays to talk to wildlife officers about the issues with bears in the area..In the past we hadnt really had an issue ..SO I will admit I did sleep with my food in my tent on a lash from Georgia to Harpers ferry. BUT thinking about it I could see the AT going to bear canister. It woul;dnt bother me.Point blank wildlife the woods is their home.I am just vacationing in it. SO if it protects the wildlife then should be manditory on the trail.
Odd Man Out
05-11-2021, 16:32
Too bad they havent found a scent that bears just abhor. Clearly from the bear in the privy story floating around, that must be a high bar.
It seems some people think this is how bear spray works so they spay it on their gear or themselves. In fact the opposite is true. Bears are attracted to bear spray. It seems they like spicy food. It works because (as Tom Smith puts it, they don't like having it sprayed up their nose).
https://www.backpacker.com/survival/bears/pro-tip-bear-spray-goes-on-the-bear-not-on-you/
Big_Old_Dog
05-11-2021, 16:58
I wondered where my post went. I think my rant was supposed to be posted on a different forum.
I used to always sleep with my food. I got pressured recently to hang. I did it properly. A pain. Then, I see the lousy job the peer pressure mommys did hanging their bags. Like 7 feet off the ground. I could reach it easily with my hand.
Packing out an elk is a lot of work but at least having a suitable rifle slung around is somewhat comforting especially when not alone.
I sleep with my spouse, you guys are weird.
I'm late to the party here, but here's my 2 cents: I know people (Iraq war vet) who ended up in the emergency room from trying to do a bear hang using a rock tied to a rope. The same couple also got their food stuck up in a bear hang, and got injured (wife riding on husband's shoulders) trying to reach the bag. Comedy of errors, and these were expert thru hikers. You may have similar experience if you try to hang on really suitable high limbs. I know I have. Yes I sleep with my food, without any problems. going on 50 years.
nsherry61
05-12-2021, 01:51
. . . Comedy of errors, and these were expert thru hikers. You may have similar experience if you try to hang on really suitable high limbs. I know I have. Yes I sleep with my food, without any problems. going on 50 years.
I don't think it's a one trick pony show. I do it all depending on the circumstances.
When required, I use bear canisters. When in open areas (i.e. no trees) with heavy bear populations and/or problem bears, I use bear canisters. When risk is moderate to moderately high and trees are available, I'll hang my food. Probably 80% of the time, which is in areas without problem bears or high bear densities, yeah, I sleep with my food and have done so for more than 50 years now. I have also slept with my food in areas of high bear density, but few bear/human interactions, when a bear was in site of my camp. I've never had problems with bears and my food. I have had problems with rodents, ants, and racoons in my food. . . knock on wood . . .
Bubblehead
05-13-2021, 08:57
Used one last year. Too Heavy, takes up too much room IMO. Gonna go back to my Zpacks food bag this year, but I've practiced and will use the PCT method to hang it...
Like NSherry, my food storage depends on circumstance. Sometimes a canister, sometimes a hand, and working with an Ursack now. I've slept with my food in shelters on occasion, but in a mouse-proof pretzel jug.
Interesting perspective on the "bear problem": I've been following a handful of hikers on YouTube while waiting to get out myself. They all started quite early, well ahead of the bubble. Only one has seen a bear, and not until last week in New York. I'm sure it's a much different scenario if you start at Springer in April.
Odd Man Out
05-13-2021, 18:55
I sleep with my spouse, you guys are weird.
Second best reply of the year. (The LASH post is still #1)
I’ve always slept with my food 3500 AT miles. Lost my food out west in sierras the only time I hung it. The key is to eat a mile or so before you camp. In a shelter I don’t believe a bear would come unless people are chomping food like crazy, cooking bacon etc., even then with the snoring rattling the rafters I think not...mice not bears.
knots in hanging, sticks and rocks bouncing off trees....entertaining mornings but somewhat hazardous.
MapleHiker
09-18-2021, 21:37
There's only a few places on the AT where I'd be worried about sleeping with food. In those areas I'll just hang it on a tree (not pct style or from 10ft of lawson glow) where I can reach it. So far no problems. I prefer the bear canister approach for many reasons and there are now some compact versions that will hold 3-4 days of food in a 38L pack.