View Full Version : calories per oz
Obviously I have too much time on my hands. I made a quick chart of cost, calories, etc. of various pre-packaged foods.
47511
Oh My! I don't see B&M Brown Bread with raisins on you list. :)
I'm sure there are a lot of things I missed :(. I focused on single serving, tear-open-the-package-and-eat items. I've only seen B&M Brown Bread in a can. I was mostly interested in comparing the survival bars to "real" food. They didn't fare all that well, except for maybe shelf life, which I did not consider.
I like nuts so I was happy to see they ranked well in areas important to me, except cost and sodium. My thought is if I purchase lightly salted or unsalted nuts in bulk and package them in baggies myself I can improve on this also. But to keep comparisons consistent I went with what you see.
Five Tango
03-21-2021, 08:21
I have some Datrex bars that will expire uneaten.I tried one once.It was like eating a brick made of sugar.
The danger in prioritizing calories per ounce is that you will favor energy foods: fat and carbs, especially sugar, while going quite low on protein.
Sure, a lot of people do it this way, but unintended consequences are huge insulin spikes and resulting "hiker hunger" which we've all experienced.
There are other approaches that are wiser nutritionally, IMO, based on keeping insulin low and burning your own body fat the way nature intended back when carbs and sugar were very scarce in the environment... maybe a little honey and fruit for a few weeks of the year.
Five Tango
03-21-2021, 16:42
B&M Brown Bread slathered in peanut butter with some honey on it would be pretty awesome for me personally.
I have never carried the bread on trail but would guess it would last a couple or three days in a ziplock bag.
mverville
03-21-2021, 17:29
Check out gear skeptic on utube. It will have you questioning some assumptions about lightweight foods
Check out gear skeptic on utube. It will have you questioning some assumptions about lightweight foods
That’s a very good video
Odd Man Out
03-21-2021, 21:34
This is the way I look at it. The mass in your food bag is one of 5 things: fats, carbs, protein, water, and packaging (salts, fiber, micronutrients are negligible). Fats have 9 cal/g. Carbs and protein have 4 cal/g. Water and packaging have zero. So to optimize you calorie density, maximize fat and minimize water and packaging. Packaging weight are estimated by inspection, but remember one large package will have less packaging mass than many small packages. So I avoid a lot of single serving items unless in very lightweight packaging. As for the others, you get these from the food label. Grams of fat, carbs, and protein per serving will be on the label. To get the water mass, take the grams per serving and subtract the weight of the three macronutrients. My goal is to have a balance of all three macronutrients with minimal water and packaging.
I have some Datrex bars that will expire uneaten.I tried one once.It was like eating a brick made of sugar. They are not tasty, that's for sure.
It might be worth keeping one in the bottom of the pack as an emergency provision. I was hoping they'd be a viable option for a simple lunch. They are not, at least not for me.
I was looking at pre-packaged foods for convenience, similar in reasoning to buying a Mountain House meal. I prefer my home prepared FBC meals, but I can see where sometimes it is more convenient to purchase a prepared meal.
I may add to the list. I was thinking of pemmican bars. There used to be a bar I liked called Bible bars. It was made from ingredients mentioned in the Bible. It was tasty even if one isn't religious (smile). There are also some hiker specific bars I should add.
B&M Brown Bread slathered in peanut butter with some honey on it would be pretty awesome for me personally.
I have never carried the bread on trail but would guess it would last a couple or three days in a ziplock bag.
B&B Brown Bread 130 calories @ 2 oz, justin peanut butter 210 cal @1 oz, honey 64 cal @ 21 grams = 404 calories @ 3 oz ,21 grams.
All according to serving sizes.
Mverville, the gear skeptic videos are quite interesting, both content and format. Clearly ALOT of work went into those. While I don’t have the scientific training to judge the conclusions, my experience from years of different sorts of exercise, with both good and bad dietary choices, tells me he is pointing in the right direction.
Big_Old_Dog
03-22-2021, 08:55
70/20/10. Fat/protein/carb. If not too much water, you can easily get over 150 calories per oz but the cost per oz is high.
Lots of pasta, noodles, rice, wheat, and various sugars are very cheap and damaging to one's health.
One can train the body to use fat 90% of the time when hiking or other aerobic activities. The fat on my waste is 240 calories/oz.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CNxcyoTR8J2aCjdfo_zv1l-0XoVktNbXts6-ZlxtODE/edit#gid=0
colorado_rob
03-22-2021, 10:51
70/20/10. Fat/protein/carb. If not too much water, you can easily get over 150 calories per oz but the cost per oz is high.
Lots of pasta, noodles, rice, wheat, and various sugars are very cheap and damaging to one's health.
One can train the body to use fat 90% of the time when hiking or other aerobic activities. The fat on my waste is 240 calories/oz.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CNxcyoTR8J2aCjdfo_zv1l-0XoVktNbXts6-ZlxtODE/edit#gid=0Yikes, I guess I'm the world's worst "fat burner" because those ratios aren't even close for me (we're all different!) I hike with about 30/30/40 (F/P/C), but I do manage about 135 cal/oz including packaging, which I keep to a bare minimum (I even weigh and find the lightest zip-locks).
Time of day matters for consuming the various nutrients; for example, proteins burn kind-of "dirty" in your system, so those are best consumed during recovery vs. when actively hiking, so I try to go mostly carbs when hiking, proteins and fats in the evenings (though some at breakfast too). So says my nutritionist pal, who's also an avid hiker and mountaineer.
Good thread, informative. I did an extensive spreadsheet about 15 years ago when I embarked on my first Denali expedition, 3 week trip w/o any chance of resupply, trying to keep to 30-ish pounds of food.
Big_Old_Dog
03-22-2021, 12:59
Yikes, I guess I'm the world's worst "fat burner" because those ratios aren't even close for me (we're all different!) I hike with about 30/30/40 (F/P/C), but I do manage about 135 cal/oz including packaging, which I keep to a bare minimum (I even weigh and find the lightest zip-locks).
Time of day matters for consuming the various nutrients; for example, proteins burn kind-of "dirty" in your system, so those are best consumed during recovery vs. when actively hiking, so I try to go mostly carbs when hiking, proteins and fats in the evenings (though some at breakfast too). So says my nutritionist pal, who's also an avid hiker and mountaineer.
Good thread, informative. I did an extensive spreadsheet about 15 years ago when I embarked on my first Denali expedition, 3 week trip w/o any chance of resupply, trying to keep to 30-ish pounds of food.
Anyone who arbitrarily switches to a higher fat diet at the start of a long hike is making a big mistake. It takes time for the body to adapt (mostly enzymes and changes to mitochondria). The macronutrient ratios that I prefer are not so easy to meet unless one ships food ahead.
The percentage of fat burned at any given power level varies from individual to individual, but everyone has a crossover point where glycogen and therefore carbohydrate consumption is important-I don't care what the paleo and keto people say. If you are lean and on a long trek, when you are ascending or climbing, burning fat isn't enough unless you slow down. Even zach bitter (ultra marathoner and keto runner) says he consumed 100 or 150 calories of carbs per hour when running. I have not seen a study but I have the belief that if any endurance athlete (like thruhikers) do not consume enough carbs and enough protein, gluconeogenesis will not only convert lactate and pyruvate into glycogen but will also "eat away" your muscles that at not being used (upper body). Individuals who are fat adapted are not totally immune. I have found that at a certain point in time and BF percentage, it doesn't matter what you throw down the furnace-it will burn clean and maintaining muscle mass is more important than idealized macro ratios. And sometimes you eat whatever there is irrespective of weight or cost. Of course, I suspect few people outside of forums like this understand that.
The point of this breakthru study was to show that RER is not limited to 1.0 and that the ability to burn fat for fuel is greater than had been thought in the past. The study was done at 65% of VO2 max IIRC. This is much higher power output than hiking. 3.5 mph up a 15% grade, my heartrate is under 120 bpm and on the flats, it is 100 bpm or less (185 is my max). 65% of VO2 might be 130 bpm.
Although I am still figuring out pacing, it seems to me that hills should be taken pretty slow to spare glycogen aside from the fact the accumulated stress is not linear but more like exponential (simplifying greatly). How does one travel from point A to point B most efficiently is something I find very interesting......after I just ate a Danish butter cookie.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340
I agree. I looked at the list and it was all carb/sugar type foods. Horrible way to eat on the trail imo.
One Half
03-23-2021, 16:26
I agree. I looked at the list and it was all carb/sugar type foods. Horrible way to eat on the trail imo.
IMO - horrible way to eat. Unfortunately much of America eats like this all the time. There really isn't much difference between these packaged foods and what one would get at fast food places and even many restaurants.
Which list? The big dog or gear skeptic?
colorado_rob
03-23-2021, 17:16
Anyone who arbitrarily switches to a higher fat diet at the start of a long hike is making a big mistake. It takes time for the body to adapt (mostly enzymes and changes to mitochondria). The macronutrient ratios that I prefer are not so easy to meet unless one ships food ahead.
The percentage of fat burned at any given power level varies from individual to individual, but everyone has a crossover point where glycogen and therefore carbohydrate consumption is important-I don't care what the paleo and keto people say. If you are lean and on a long trek, when you are ascending or climbing, burning fat isn't enough unless you slow down. Even zach bitter (ultra marathoner and keto runner) says he consumed 100 or 150 calories of carbs per hour when running. I have not seen a study but I have the belief that if any endurance athlete (like thruhikers) do not consume enough carbs and enough protein, gluconeogenesis will not only convert lactate and pyruvate into glycogen but will also "eat away" your muscles that at not being used (upper body). Individuals who are fat adapted are not totally immune. I have found that at a certain point in time and BF percentage, it doesn't matter what you throw down the furnace-it will burn clean and maintaining muscle mass is more important than idealized macro ratios. And sometimes you eat whatever there is irrespective of weight or cost. Of course, I suspect few people outside of forums like this understand that.
The point of this breakthru study was to show that RER is not limited to 1.0 and that the ability to burn fat for fuel is greater than had been thought in the past. The study was done at 65% of VO2 max IIRC. This is much higher power output than hiking. 3.5 mph up a 15% grade, my heartrate is under 120 bpm and on the flats, it is 100 bpm or less (185 is my max). 65% of VO2 might be 130 bpm.
Although I am still figuring out pacing, it seems to me that hills should be taken pretty slow to spare glycogen aside from the fact the accumulated stress is not linear but more like exponential (simplifying greatly). How does one travel from point A to point B most efficiently is something I find very interesting......after I just ate a Danish butter cookie.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340this is great info BD, thanks for sharing. This is one important aspect of long distance backpacking that I've neglected; I get by somehow, but could do so much better. Again, thanks, I'll take a good hard look.
I thought the part on one of the Gear Skeptic vides where he compare the weight cost of low cal density food to a tent was pretty thought provoking. It makes sense what Big Dog says about you can’t just snap into a high fat diet either.
Big_Old_Dog
03-24-2021, 07:59
I thought the part on one of the Gear Skeptic vides where he compare the weight cost of low cal density food to a tent was pretty thought provoking. It makes sense what Big Dog says about you can’t just snap into a high fat diet either.
Aside from wearing out your deuce of spades, your body won't assimilate a 70% fat diet immediately but the one point to mention would be a more critical importance of electrolytes on a high fat diet.
Gear Skeptic wrote or said somewhere (on his spreadsheet?) that he carries 15-20 oz of food per day or 2400-3000 calories....or something like 150-160 calories per oz. A key and subtle point that is lost? People adept at burning fat can "under consume" during longer carries. For instance, if someone goes from NOC or to Standing Bear Hostel on the other side of GSMNP, a distance of 105 miles. 2-2.5 pounds per day of food on this back would kill it. 1-1.25 pounds per day is doable. The downside is a loss of 3-5 pounds of fat from my old carcass to be replaced with ample eating of bacon double cheeseburgers layered with cheese in the future (cardiac calcium CT score = 0.....no worries). If I am properly fit and adapted, I will feel no power or energy loss and actually would likely feel really great. People who mostly burn sugar at low intensity of exercise would feel like absolute crap and would bonk, so, getting the maximum calories per ounce isn't a simple panacea if your body hasn't gotten used to burning it. Often recommended are shakedown hikes, probably a good idea for big food changes. There is one "energy" bar that I like but for some reason if I eat it during exercise, it gives me diarrhea....100% always...pretty sure it is garbage oil they use. I tend to think of food functionally as gear. Fuel. A little maltodextrin, table sugar, or highly branched cyclic dextirn (for the spendy crowd) with minerals added into the water bottle isn;t ultralight but is ultra easy to maintain energy levels.....I am surprised hikers do not add carbs of some sort to their water.
Now that I understand Fontana commercial facilities are back in business (?), I could and should change my plan.